Hi, naval architect here: what makes a boat uncomfortable is not the amount of roll but the accelleration of the motion. A stable ships have high acceleration and are uncomfortable, ships with little stability roll gently from side to side, albeit with a larger rolling angle. Empty lifeboats are notoriously high in stability because they are designed for higher weight (full of people) and also short and wide for space saving reasons. So the easiest solution, thats maybe counterintuitive, is to put weight/lead on your top deck. Kimkeels are great at damping roll as well (they are not like keels on your yachts because theyll increase yoir stability and discomfort). Active solutions are an option as well but more expensive than bolting some lead to your deck. Hope that helps, Cheers
Thanks for the input. I should have alluded back to a past episode where we talked about stable vs comfortable. Can you link me to a kimkeel? Google doesn't bring up much.
I do apologise, i meant a bilge keel (en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilge_keel). There go my naval archtect credentials haha. Sorry in dutch theyre called kim kiel which is my native lamguage. I do think your leeboard will do a similar job. Any fin really will help dampening it. As long as they dont increase your stability too much. Whats nicr with bilgekeels is that they can be small and not protrude the hull. They get their effectiveness from their length
Ah, thank you! That makes a lot more sense. I had a lot of sketching out of bilge keels, but I need to avoid permanent structures that will be vulnerable to ice. I hope these side boards will be an improvement as you say.
Sorry for the useless advice so far. The only idea to add that you havent mentioned is a tiny sail. A lot of motorcruisers have a very small mast for the purpose of rolldampening. Can be as small as 1-2m2. Should be easy enough to jerryrig and try out.
I like the idea of stabilises and thanks for posting my boat in your video. In my experience which is pretty vast on these boats I will tell you what I found and maybe it will help you. The hull is not strong like steel it flexes more than you think. I connected beams to the sides and to get them to be robust enough I installed plates inside the hull running forward and aft of my beams. I made them as strong as I could get them but the hull still flexes especially when the boat is it by a side on sea. I know you not going to like what I say but the best idea could be rubber duck pontoons attached along the whole side of the vessel 800mm diameter. Good luck with your build and thanks for making such entertaining videos.
Ah hello! I was intrigued about your twin hull idea when I saw it on Facebook. Is the build more complete now? I may have missed updates. Cheers for the input. I suspect the flex will be huge from a retrofitted catamaran design. More than various sorts of stabilising board/keel. I guess the fibreglass layup will vary too. Not all lifeboats were born equal! Cheers from me.
Oh Hey I recommend putting down some Fabric wood glue on that before you staple them. It will help hold the fabric in place and I think it helps hold the staples a bit having a dab of glue on them. It's the daily vibrations that is the issue.
Crising Sea Venture had some mast mounted 'fish' hydrovanes that drop into the water when deployed. Re fuel economy with the fish deployed, they found the hydrodynamic drag was negated by more a more stable boat allowing the hull and prop to work better.
On the previous video I said that chapters for the questions would be nice, you answered: " Sorry; the first upload corrupted and so I only just had time to hit post before heading to the pub. Will add them. " I did the chapters on a previous Q&A (it seemed appreciated),. You must be busy whilst I read your words and believe what you said
Seriously. How entitled are you? I'll do the chapters when I'm damn ready. I'm currently working 14 hour days, 7 days per week. What else do you contribute to this channel?
Not sure with what tone you read my comment but ok. Just to make sure, there's no sarcasm or irony in my message. You must know that older videos get less views as time goes and I thought it was in your best interest. Some bad day is it?@@AlexHibbertOriginals
By the way, to answer your question, I also suggested my help in case you come back by the french coast since I have knowledge in marine mechanic but you stopped answering after that. My turn, I did say that you must be busy on my comment and it seems true so why the justification? @@AlexHibbertOriginals
Cheap CLS timber treated for Marine use....Have you been watching my channel too much Alex? ;-) I'm quite interested in the experiment. Off the bat, I wouldn't have thought Leeboards would have helped with heeling/rolling. Their primary use is to point when beating (Sailing to windward) on a sail boat, but in theory they could help, especially when the boat has some forward force. Usually heeling is a function of how much the boat is pushed over by the wind of lift of the sails, offset by the ballast in the boat. Ballast can come in all shapes and sizes, from being low down on a long keel to someone higher up but leaning out on a dinghy but it's all to do with counter weight in opposition to the wind on the sails that will heel the boat. The counter action of the ballast and the fact the keel is long and deep or has a centreboard of some nature that what makes it then "squeeze" forward, especially when beating, where the "Aerofoil effect of the sails is used to create "lift" like a wing, rather than just filling the sails and pushing the boat from behind. As always I hope i'm wrong and you're right! It will be interesting to see it working in any event.
The CLS is sadly only temporary! There's plenty of literature that quotes the use of leeboards as in pairs having an anti roll function. I think often people just see a product is designed for one purpose, given a name, and don't consider other properties. Perhaps I should rename these boards...
The key issue will be loading. The traditional leeboard is only used on the 'lee' side of the boat, so there is support for the board at two points; one at the pivot and one against the hull side, and this also serves to reduce the length of the lever arm. If you propose to use it as anti-roll then the mounting point must resist the leverage created by the whole board without support from the lower hull. It would be exactly like using the leeboard on the weather side of the boat, where the sideways forces are trying to tear the board away from the hull, rather than pressing it innto the lower hull. Making the board strong enough isn't difficult, but strengthening the hull side so a hole isn't torn in it is, i fear, a job for an engineer.
Luckily I have a family of those! I think it was an error to refer to my plan as a leeboard as such, as people take the specific design literally. Perhaps a better description would be twin side-mounted removable bilge keels with double mounts top and middle. A little less pithy.
I`m not an expert but i`m not sure if leeboards will have anti-rolling properties, I think they are normally used to improve tracking capabilities of a boat, such as a sailing conoe,
In the beginning stupid me believed Alan would just be a tool, like a sled, for a future expedition. Now it turns out he is now your main hobby, and, like a model railroad, never be completed.
I know it may look like this, but genuinely, I want the renovations to be done. It's a massive time drain on my main work, and to be perfectly honest, I'm not that into boats!
How about removeable daggerboards with a slide in frame on each side? One or both can be slid in and secured in rough seas - and in calm times you just slide them out again and rest them on the cabin roof.
Don't add leeboards. They won't work, and their addition would add complication and will endanger your boat when heavy seas tear them off and the bits hit your propeller. Leeboards are for shallow draught sailing boats operating in shallow waters, like Thames barges. They help offset leeway when sailing with the wind ahead of the beam. Keep it simple. She's gonna roll but she won't sink!
The newer model tabs that mount to a flat transom and controlled by a gyro would be tough on a canoe stern but mounting more traditional trim tabs may be feasible if you could get that same software to run them. Pretty cheap for the results.
I have converted a 34 foot Harding free-fall lifeboat into a motor-sailor. I have laminated a one tonne RSJ (6.5 meters long) onto the original diminutive keel and added another one tonne of internal ballast in the form of lead and three AGM battery banks. Under sail she (Deepsea Delta) handles ok with limited roll. You may want to consider fitting a rig. If you are going to negotiate icy waters you must have a clean hull and freeboard. Leeboards etc. will break off. Your Kort nozzle is no good as chunks of ice may be wedged between the propeller and the inside of the nozzle. You need a proper rudder as well as an emergency rudder. Good luck with the project.
i follow motoryachts more than sailing ones, but i think i remember the offshore sailing yachts won't use leeboards. i can't remember as to why though. paravanes would be fairly simple to add.
I think it's generally since yachts already have a suitable keel built in from day one, whether twin fins, deep keel etc etc. You can't really sail without one, as I understand it...
I'd 100% agree for anything structural. But this is part of a cushion that needs to be dry anyhow, it's specially moisture treated, and is rigid whilst being able to take the staples.
Hello, what you want to install ( anti roling ) is useless. The picture of the dutch flatbottom is there as a fin to have better upwind performance and NOT as a stabiliser. Many lifeboats ( with very little draft ) have on both sides of the keel metal wings as long as the waterline, that indeed will help diminish rolling and is a help to fall dry right up. Fishing boats used to have a small sail to diminisch roling. Sometimes its better to contact a boat designer for theses issues. Cheers.
Lee boards on Dutch barges are to help prevent the boat from going to leeward whilst sailing, same principle as a centre board on a sailing dinghy and nothing to do with stabilisation.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Indeed. I spent a whole two minutes looking for a more expensive solution, but that's the best I could find. :) To a landlubber like me living on the Canadian prairie gyros are a pretty brilliantsolution to a problem I'll probably never encounter so thought I'd share. But I did mean the last bit. Bobbing around in the ocean inside of Allen doesn't sound appealing to me. Shaken, not stirred..
I enjoy your videos, thank you. I also think you should have bought a suitable motor boat in the first place. Many of the changes you are trying to make would have been unnecessary and you would have saved time and money to offset the initial cost. This is easy to say from my armchair, excuse me if I'm being annoying.
A motorboat with a deep keel or fin keels? A yacht? A polar rated ice vessel? All impossible for me. And who'd want to see a channel about some guy driving round some boat someone else had made for him?
No need to share my thoughts, I am sure there will be plenty of unsolicited thoughtless comments on the proposed system. I would have preferred rockets to stabilise
Alex could say you can’t spell and you can’t, but he is too polite so why are you criticising without a single solitary reason? Very impolite. I am sure he doesn’t mind criticism but expects a logical foundation for such a claim. You give nothing.
![Steel preparation work for boat anti-roll. And, toerails! Expedition lifeboat conversion Ep117 [4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t-bT978ol7I/mqdefault.jpg)
![Steel preparation work for boat anti-roll. And, toerails! Expedition lifeboat conversion Ep117 [4K]](/img/tr.png)
![*SPECIAL* Lifeboat Conversion Ep20: Multi-day sea trials in the Thames Estuary, England [4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nls6mFLzNe0/mqdefault.jpg)
Oh dear! I only just noticed that at 05:21 one of the clips didn't render. Darkness. How sinister. Anyhow, cheers for not judging too hard.
Hi, naval architect here: what makes a boat uncomfortable is not the amount of roll but the accelleration of the motion. A stable ships have high acceleration and are uncomfortable, ships with little stability roll gently from side to side, albeit with a larger rolling angle. Empty lifeboats are notoriously high in stability because they are designed for higher weight (full of people) and also short and wide for space saving reasons. So the easiest solution, thats maybe counterintuitive, is to put weight/lead on your top deck. Kimkeels are great at damping roll as well (they are not like keels on your yachts because theyll increase yoir stability and discomfort). Active solutions are an option as well but more expensive than bolting some lead to your deck. Hope that helps, Cheers
Thanks for the input. I should have alluded back to a past episode where we talked about stable vs comfortable. Can you link me to a kimkeel? Google doesn't bring up much.
I do apologise, i meant a bilge keel (en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilge_keel). There go my naval archtect credentials haha. Sorry in dutch theyre called kim kiel which is my native lamguage. I do think your leeboard will do a similar job. Any fin really will help dampening it. As long as they dont increase your stability too much. Whats nicr with bilgekeels is that they can be small and not protrude the hull. They get their effectiveness from their length
Ah, thank you! That makes a lot more sense. I had a lot of sketching out of bilge keels, but I need to avoid permanent structures that will be vulnerable to ice. I hope these side boards will be an improvement as you say.
Sorry for the useless advice so far. The only idea to add that you havent mentioned is a tiny sail. A lot of motorcruisers have a very small mast for the purpose of rolldampening. Can be as small as 1-2m2. Should be easy enough to jerryrig and try out.
Don't care.
I'll watch anything You publish.
Thank You for the content You provide and when the time comes:
Welcome to Norway!
That comment got progressively better! Cheers
I like the idea of stabilises and thanks for posting my boat in your video.
In my experience which is pretty vast on these boats I will tell you what I found and maybe it will help you.
The hull is not strong like steel it flexes more than you think.
I connected beams to the sides and to get them to be robust enough I installed plates inside the hull running forward and aft of my beams.
I made them as strong as I could get them but the hull still flexes especially when the boat is it by a side on sea.
I know you not going to like what I say but the best idea could be rubber duck pontoons attached along the whole side of the vessel 800mm diameter.
Good luck with your build and thanks for making such entertaining videos.
Ah hello! I was intrigued about your twin hull idea when I saw it on Facebook. Is the build more complete now? I may have missed updates.
Cheers for the input. I suspect the flex will be huge from a retrofitted catamaran design. More than various sorts of stabilising board/keel. I guess the fibreglass layup will vary too. Not all lifeboats were born equal!
Cheers from me.
The forces applied on the faces of each stabiliser will be massive, the supports will need serious fixing properties or they will get ripped off.
Always so fascinated by the active stabilization systems.
You explained and showed very clearly how you envision Alan's passive stabilization system
Cheers. I'm fascinated by their prices!
Oh Hey I recommend putting down some Fabric wood glue on that before you staple them. It will help hold the fabric in place and I think it helps hold the staples a bit having a dab of glue on them. It's the daily vibrations that is the issue.
Thanks. It's done now, but if I have problems and have to have a second go I'll do that.
I think a small stabilising sail at the stern may help.Suggest old sailboard mast and sail. Not keen on the leeboard idea.
Crising Sea Venture had some mast mounted 'fish' hydrovanes that drop into the water when deployed.
Re fuel economy with the fish deployed, they found the hydrodynamic drag was negated by more a more stable boat allowing the hull and prop to work better.
On the previous video I said that chapters for the questions would be nice, you answered: " Sorry; the first upload corrupted and so I only just had time to hit post before heading to the pub. Will add them. "
I did the chapters on a previous Q&A (it seemed appreciated),. You must be busy whilst I read your words and believe what you said
Seriously. How entitled are you?
I'll do the chapters when I'm damn ready. I'm currently working 14 hour days, 7 days per week. What else do you contribute to this channel?
Not sure with what tone you read my comment but ok. Just to make sure, there's no sarcasm or irony in my message.
You must know that older videos get less views as time goes and I thought it was in your best interest. Some bad day is it?@@AlexHibbertOriginals
By the way, to answer your question, I also suggested my help in case you come back by the french coast since I have knowledge in marine mechanic but you stopped answering after that.
My turn, I did say that you must be busy on my comment and it seems true so why the justification? @@AlexHibbertOriginals
Cheap CLS timber treated for Marine use....Have you been watching my channel too much Alex? ;-)
I'm quite interested in the experiment. Off the bat, I wouldn't have thought Leeboards would have helped with heeling/rolling. Their primary use is to point when beating (Sailing to windward) on a sail boat, but in theory they could help, especially when the boat has some forward force.
Usually heeling is a function of how much the boat is pushed over by the wind of lift of the sails, offset by the ballast in the boat. Ballast can come in all shapes and sizes, from being low down on a long keel to someone higher up but leaning out on a dinghy but it's all to do with counter weight in opposition to the wind on the sails that will heel the boat. The counter action of the ballast and the fact the keel is long and deep or has a centreboard of some nature that what makes it then "squeeze" forward, especially when beating, where the "Aerofoil effect of the sails is used to create "lift" like a wing, rather than just filling the sails and pushing the boat from behind.
As always I hope i'm wrong and you're right! It will be interesting to see it working in any event.
The CLS is sadly only temporary!
There's plenty of literature that quotes the use of leeboards as in pairs having an anti roll function. I think often people just see a product is designed for one purpose, given a name, and don't consider other properties. Perhaps I should rename these boards...
The editing is as nice as always.
The key issue will be loading. The traditional leeboard is only used on the 'lee' side of the boat, so there is support for the board at two points; one at the pivot and one against the hull side, and this also serves to reduce the length of the lever arm. If you propose to use it as anti-roll then the mounting point must resist the leverage created by the whole board without support from the lower hull. It would be exactly like using the leeboard on the weather side of the boat, where the sideways forces are trying to tear the board away from the hull, rather than pressing it innto the lower hull.
Making the board strong enough isn't difficult, but strengthening the hull side so a hole isn't torn in it is, i fear, a job for an engineer.
Luckily I have a family of those!
I think it was an error to refer to my plan as a leeboard as such, as people take the specific design literally. Perhaps a better description would be twin side-mounted removable bilge keels with double mounts top and middle. A little less pithy.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Teaching my grandmother to suck eggs has always been my problem! I'm sure you'll make it work.
I`m not an expert but i`m not sure if leeboards will have anti-rolling properties, I think they are normally used to improve tracking capabilities of a boat, such as a sailing conoe,
In the beginning stupid me believed Alan would just be a tool, like a sled, for a future expedition. Now it turns out he is now your main hobby, and, like a model railroad, never be completed.
I know it may look like this, but genuinely, I want the renovations to be done. It's a massive time drain on my main work, and to be perfectly honest, I'm not that into boats!
How about removeable daggerboards with a slide in frame on each side? One or both can be slid in and secured in rough seas - and in calm times you just slide them out again and rest them on the cabin roof.
This is a very similar principle, but bolt on / bolt off instead of having to create a large slot frame for them to drop down through.
Don't add leeboards. They won't work, and their addition would add complication and will endanger your boat when heavy seas tear them off and the bits hit your propeller. Leeboards are for shallow draught sailing boats operating in shallow waters, like Thames barges. They help offset leeway when sailing with the wind ahead of the beam.
Keep it simple. She's gonna roll but she won't sink!
The newer model tabs that mount to a flat transom and controlled by a gyro would be tough on a canoe stern but mounting more traditional trim tabs may be feasible if you could get that same software to run them. Pretty cheap for the results.
I have converted a 34 foot Harding free-fall lifeboat into a motor-sailor. I have laminated a one tonne RSJ (6.5 meters long) onto the original diminutive keel and added another one tonne of internal ballast in the form of lead and three AGM battery banks. Under sail she (Deepsea Delta) handles ok with limited roll. You may want to consider fitting a rig. If you are going to negotiate icy waters you must have a clean hull and freeboard. Leeboards etc. will break off. Your Kort nozzle is no good as chunks of ice may be wedged between the propeller and the inside of the nozzle. You need a proper rudder as well as an emergency rudder. Good luck with the project.
Have you considered a hydrofoil? Get Alan up to 50 knots and out of the water. Cheers!
Ha! What a sight.
I wish I had a voice like yours :)
From a legacy of oppression and presently problematic ?
@@AlexHibbertOriginals sorry don’t really get the answer :) I’ll take it as a British humour
Definitely best :)
i follow motoryachts more than sailing ones, but i think i remember the offshore sailing yachts won't use leeboards. i can't remember as to why though.
paravanes would be fairly simple to add.
I think it's generally since yachts already have a suitable keel built in from day one, whether twin fins, deep keel etc etc. You can't really sail without one, as I understand it...
AMAZINGNES!!!
I'd personally never use MDF on a boat - I only ever used it for speaker enclosures.
I'd 100% agree for anything structural. But this is part of a cushion that needs to be dry anyhow, it's specially moisture treated, and is rigid whilst being able to take the staples.
Hello, what you want to install ( anti roling ) is useless. The picture of the dutch flatbottom is there as a fin to have better upwind performance and NOT as a stabiliser. Many lifeboats ( with very little draft ) have on both sides of the keel metal wings as long as the waterline, that indeed will help diminish rolling and is a help to fall dry right up. Fishing boats used to have a small sail to diminisch roling. Sometimes its better to contact a boat designer for theses issues. Cheers.
in fact leeboards work fantastically well as stabilisers whether they are designed to or not.
Leeboards do, and did when I mentioned them before, massively divide opinion.
There proven on Dutch Barges & easy technology.
Lee boards on Dutch barges are to help prevent the boat from going to leeward whilst sailing, same principle as a centre board on a sailing dinghy and nothing to do with stabilisation.
Just contact Seakeeper. Model 9 should work just fine. Easy as that.
Hope you get it sorted efficiently.
$108k. Very funny!
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Indeed. I spent a whole two minutes looking for a more expensive solution, but that's the best I could find. :) To a landlubber like me living on the Canadian prairie gyros are a pretty brilliantsolution to a problem I'll probably never encounter so thought I'd share.
But I did mean the last bit. Bobbing around in the ocean inside of Allen doesn't sound appealing to me. Shaken, not stirred..
I enjoy your videos, thank you. I also think you should have bought a suitable motor boat in the first place. Many of the changes you are trying to make would have been unnecessary and you would have saved time and money to offset the initial cost. This is easy to say from my armchair, excuse me if I'm being annoying.
A motorboat with a deep keel or fin keels? A yacht? A polar rated ice vessel?
All impossible for me.
And who'd want to see a channel about some guy driving round some boat someone else had made for him?
😉👌
No need to share my thoughts, I am sure there will be plenty of unsolicited thoughtless comments on the proposed system.
I would have preferred rockets to stabilise
Rockets. Noted.
i think this is 115 not 116
I've yet to complete the metadata on the last Q&A.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals oh i see, cool
_Alan's SO vain; he probably thinks this comment's about him!_
I think your going about it wrong.....
Alex could say you can’t spell and you can’t, but he is too polite so why are you criticising without a single solitary reason? Very impolite. I am sure he doesn’t mind criticism but expects a logical foundation for such a claim. You give nothing.