Very well done Sam. Looking at my 1942 Izhevsk 91/30, I can see its a refurbished which I suspected, but she's still a beauty. Thanks for taking the time to educate us on this historic Russian battlefield weapon.
Good basic information, but there are some inaccuracies. 1. 4:22 Not hard to tell it's a replacement stock: this rifle left the factory in a half liner front/no liner rear stock. And pressed in liners aren't just "late and postwar". Tula started using them in early 1943 on all 91/30s, Izhevsk started using them only on PU snipers early to mid 1944. 1943 and early 1944 Izhevsk PU snipers had half liners both ends. 2. 4:53 The slashed box doesn't denote a Russian depot, but a Ukranan one (Arsenal #1 in Balaklaya, Ukraine). Arsenal 1 also made lots of stocks postwar (most or all Soviet-produced replacement stocks), so their mark on the stock doesn't necessarily mean the rifle received a refurbishment there at any point: only that the replacement stock was made there. 3. 9:28 Bluing inside the receiver("dip bluing") was introduced early war at both arsenals. Wartime examples left the factory with the inside of the receiver blued.
My newest edition is a 43 izzy. The machining is super rough compared to my earlier rifles. It's refurbished but the stock is a wartime stock. The sling swivels are just holes in the wood with the curved over metal plate on one side of the lip.
Great video! I have always looked at them knowing that they were redone, but never understood what actually happened to them. Some people don't care, but I love trying to understood the whole history of a rifle. They all have a story to tell. I got them cheap and did not really like the look of them, but after studying them andunderstanding more of the history, I fell in love with the ugly ducklings. This video just adds to my understanding and a deeper appreciation for individual history!
That 91/59 is a super nice rifle- I didn't know such an animal existed. The second Mosin that you showed as being "original" had a mismatched bolt? Also, refurbished rifles done by a govt military I always refer to as "re-arsenaled". IMO, the quality of a re-arsenaled gun is basically the same as new/unissued (as long as it's never been fired since). Many of the re-arsenaled rifles that were common out of Ukraine several years ago are superb examples w/brand new barrels, etc. Thanks for all of the good info.
Almost all American rifles were refurbished as well that saw usage during the war.Finding lets say an M1 Garand unmolested is rare as well and command high prices.I do have the Holy Grail of M44's Tula 1944 MO marked, that is unmolested and in mint shape.Went through 600 plus cases of rifles to find that one at the dealer years ago.I will check the others for marks to see what is what.Good info.
The US practice for cleaning guns in WW2 was to have every one in a squad clean their guns all at once. So everyone would throw their bolts, triggers, ect into a pile or tub of solvent and pull them all out at random to put the guns back together. A "numbers matching" rifle that actually saw combat is nearly impossible to find because of this.(m1 garand serial numbers on parts are actually lot numbers and never match the rifles serial number) Because there are effectively no matching rifles by the time they were surplused, the CMP doesn't have to worry about reusing worn out parts to keep the rifles original when they sell them to the US public (barrels matching receivers is another story, my M1 is post war but the barrel was replaced with a NOS surplus barrel). Most of the time if you find a rifle with parts that all date to the same time of manufacture, its likely faked to make the rifle worth more. Of course this doesn't mean every rifle is faked and so long as all of the parts look equally worn with no abnormally good or bad looking parts on them like a black bolt in a grey receiver, or a pitted op-rod on an otherwise pristine rifle, it very well could be a complete factory rifle.
The thing about Mosin`s you never know what you're gonna get. I have a Chinese type 53. It was nasty. Black crusty stock, rusty bolt etc. It had still been dipped in cosmoline. Inside I found dried mud a grass. I'm guessing the individual that carried it didn't make it home. I haven't reassembled it yet. It has a Tula barrel bands.
Chinese mosins were handed out to the people's militia and used and abused to no end. I have one who's bore is smooth due to having been fired so much.
Got a 1945 M44, no import marks, no refurb marks...nice condition all matching. Seen some pictures of soldiers returning from Korea with same model. Refurb is OK, some better than others.
I have an imperial M91. it doesn't have any of the refurbishment markings shown in the video but even if it's made in the Izievsk factory, it have the SA marking which mean that it has been in Finland. does it mean it has been refurbished in Finland?
I know there is speculation on where the 91/59 came from . As you said possibly Bulgaria , they did a lot with the M95 , converting the long rifle to carbine/short rifle length , yet with the stock showing to be Czech , why would they only make the stocks and then send them to Bulgaria . So possibly they where done in Czechoslovak
Some of the old thinking is changing....that the kk10 in a circle and B in the star was really a Bulgarian mark on the stock. The original Czech thinking was a best guess at the time, just like the change to Bulgarian is thought to be a better guess today. Much of this milsurp science is theory, which keeps it so interesting.
Everything is worth more in a factory original configuration cracked stocks do happen some become a bubba victim.Wish we had a limited run of replica Mosin Nagants here in the states from century arms crazy how everyone clones AK variants and overlooks the true practical hunting rifle.
A big Sam hoping you could help me with this one. I just won a bid on GunBroker and I got me an original mosin 1938 91/30 was hoping you could help me with its history. It's definitely an original non-refurbished the bolt is mismatched no import marks and is duffle cut. There are no finnish marks but there are wire hangers for the sling. I'm assuming a GI brought it back but where from. Do you think it could be a Spanish civil war rifle?
Howdy! I know this rifle, it is very interesting indeed. There are virtually no known Spanish Civil War Mosins made in 1938, and coupled with the fact that it is duffle cut, we can safely rule that out from being a possibility. This rifle is a service member bringback, most likely from WWII or Korea, also with a slight possibility of coming from Vietnam. Congrats on the very cool rifle!
Some information presented contradicts many other things I have read that site sources. Why, since the age of the internet, hasn't anyone reached out to people that actually worked in these arsenals during WWII? Not as many workers left now but 20 years ago could have been easily done. They are the unsung heros of any war.
It was a rifle designed to be wielded by mainly uneducated peasant class people. And they needed several millions of them. They were not "made to be junky" but they were made to be simple, reliable, and easy to produce. As far as if they were ever good shootin guns, they still see active duty service in several militaries as marksmen rifles. One of the few guns still in modern service after well over 100 years
Mine is a 1942 says Georgia UT. What is this was it made in Utah? I also have letters and like a square on the stock with a line going through it its a 91 30 so alo I see a mj or mc can't maout it its an c or j what are these marking on the stock
Georgia RUSSIA! U and T are likely T for Tula and U being a Russian marking for some other identification. There were Remington built Mosin's but I don't think it was in Utah!
My m38 has a laminated stock. I think it’s rather pretty. It’s marked with the number 2 and something like a square with a diagonal line through it. Of course there’s no finish like the Finnish finish.
Mine too...on a '40 Tula...it looks like a Ruger Gunsite Scout stock and the whole Rifle is the ''prettiest'' 91/30 I have seen. My '42 Izzy is really nice too but not like the Tula!@@robertmiedel4104
The 91/30 my late Father got in the mid '60's...no import marks, the stock has some dings, and has a dark, what I'd call an oil rubbed finish. The slots for the sling have no metal around them. No box refurbish stamps. The bolt is dark, not shiny. The receiver and barrel is dark, matte black, inside if receiver is in white. Marked with a triangle with an arrow, serial number is K, with 5 digits. Date stamped, 1943. What do I have?
no facts presented as far as markings it all seems, seems, seems, ,infer,infer,infer. Sorry Sam there are finite terms in regards to Mosin 91/30 what a bunch of BS This guy want to be a mosin expert. And that's OK just be aware this is information gained from a United States perspective rather than county's of origin
Very well done Sam. Looking at my 1942 Izhevsk 91/30, I can see its a refurbished which I suspected, but she's still a beauty. Thanks for taking the time to educate us on this historic Russian battlefield weapon.
You have so very many nice Mosins! You keep pulling them out of your hat. Thanks so much for sharing them!
So very interesting ! Love your channel. Please keep up the great work. You are appreciated👍
Thank you for information, very informative and clear!! Thank you again !!!
Good basic information, but there are some inaccuracies. 1. 4:22 Not hard to tell it's a replacement stock: this rifle left the factory in a half liner front/no liner rear stock. And pressed in liners aren't just "late and postwar". Tula started using them in early 1943 on all 91/30s, Izhevsk started using them only on PU snipers early to mid 1944. 1943 and early 1944 Izhevsk PU snipers had half liners both ends. 2. 4:53 The slashed box doesn't denote a Russian depot, but a Ukranan one (Arsenal #1 in Balaklaya, Ukraine). Arsenal 1 also made lots of stocks postwar (most or all Soviet-produced replacement stocks), so their mark on the stock doesn't necessarily mean the rifle received a refurbishment there at any point: only that the replacement stock was made there. 3. 9:28 Bluing inside the receiver("dip bluing") was introduced early war at both arsenals. Wartime examples left the factory with the inside of the receiver blued.
Enjoy the history and info. Thanks for sharing 👍
My newest edition is a 43 izzy. The machining is super rough compared to my earlier rifles. It's refurbished but the stock is a wartime stock. The sling swivels are just holes in the wood with the curved over metal plate on one side of the lip.
Thank you Sam.
Great video! I have always looked at them knowing that they were redone, but never understood what actually happened to them. Some people don't care, but I love trying to understood the whole history of a rifle. They all have a story to tell. I got them cheap and did not really like the look of them, but after studying them andunderstanding more of the history, I fell in love with the ugly ducklings. This video just adds to my understanding and a deeper appreciation for individual history!
Good info, thank you
That 91/59 is a super nice rifle- I didn't know such an animal existed. The second Mosin that you showed as being "original" had a mismatched bolt? Also, refurbished rifles done by a govt military I always refer to as "re-arsenaled". IMO, the quality of a re-arsenaled gun is basically the same as new/unissued (as long as it's never been fired since). Many of the re-arsenaled rifles that were common out of Ukraine several years ago are superb examples w/brand new barrels, etc. Thanks for all of the good info.
I have a 91/59 came to me look new has 1943 stamp
Almost all American rifles were refurbished as well that saw usage during the war.Finding lets say an M1 Garand unmolested is rare as well and command high prices.I do have the Holy Grail of M44's Tula 1944 MO marked, that is unmolested and in mint shape.Went through 600 plus cases of rifles to find that one at the dealer years ago.I will check the others for marks to see what is what.Good info.
The US practice for cleaning guns in WW2 was to have every one in a squad clean their guns all at once. So everyone would throw their bolts, triggers, ect into a pile or tub of solvent and pull them all out at random to put the guns back together.
A "numbers matching" rifle that actually saw combat is nearly impossible to find because of this.(m1 garand serial numbers on parts are actually lot numbers and never match the rifles serial number) Because there are effectively no matching rifles by the time they were surplused, the CMP doesn't have to worry about reusing worn out parts to keep the rifles original when they sell them to the US public (barrels matching receivers is another story, my M1 is post war but the barrel was replaced with a NOS surplus barrel). Most of the time if you find a rifle with parts that all date to the same time of manufacture, its likely faked to make the rifle worth more. Of course this doesn't mean every rifle is faked and so long as all of the parts look equally worn with no abnormally good or bad looking parts on them like a black bolt in a grey receiver, or a pitted op-rod on an otherwise pristine rifle, it very well could be a complete factory rifle.
The thing about Mosin`s you never know what you're gonna get. I have a Chinese type 53. It was nasty. Black crusty stock, rusty bolt etc. It had still been dipped in cosmoline. Inside I found dried mud a grass. I'm guessing the individual that carried it didn't make it home. I haven't reassembled it yet. It has a Tula barrel bands.
Chinese mosins were handed out to the people's militia and used and abused to no end. I have one who's bore is smooth due to having been fired so much.
I have a 1943 91/30 with East German refurbishment markings
Got a 1945 M44, no import marks, no refurb marks...nice condition all matching. Seen some pictures of soldiers returning from Korea with same model. Refurb is OK, some better than others.
I think all 1942 and later were blued inside the receiver to expedite production on original rifles, so that being a refurb sign wouldn't apply.
Your videos are interesting.
Thanks for the explanation.
My M44, made in 1944, definitely seems to be refurbished. There is bluing inside the chamber.
Looking at one stamped 1897. It has that boxy look on the chamber like the Finnish one. Does that mean it's Finnish or was that how the old ones are?
Fantastic
What has more value? Refurbished or original? I’m assuming original?
I have an imperial M91. it doesn't have any of the refurbishment markings shown in the video but even if it's made in the Izievsk factory, it have the SA marking which mean that it has been in Finland. does it mean it has been refurbished in Finland?
I know there is speculation on where the 91/59 came from . As you said possibly Bulgaria , they did a lot with the M95 , converting the long rifle to carbine/short rifle length , yet with the stock showing to be Czech , why would they only make the stocks and then send them to Bulgaria . So possibly they where done in Czechoslovak
Some of the old thinking is changing....that the kk10 in a circle and B in the star was really a Bulgarian mark on the stock. The original Czech thinking was a best guess at the time, just like the change to Bulgarian is thought to be a better guess today. Much of this milsurp science is theory, which keeps it so interesting.
Everything is worth more in a factory original configuration cracked stocks do happen some become a bubba victim.Wish we had a limited run of replica Mosin Nagants here in the states from century arms crazy how everyone clones AK variants and overlooks the true practical hunting rifle.
A big Sam hoping you could help me with this one. I just won a bid on GunBroker and I got me an original mosin 1938 91/30 was hoping you could help me with its history. It's definitely an original non-refurbished the bolt is mismatched no import marks and is duffle cut. There are no finnish marks but there are wire hangers for the sling. I'm assuming a GI brought it back but where from. Do you think it could be a Spanish civil war rifle?
Howdy! I know this rifle, it is very interesting indeed. There are virtually no known Spanish Civil War Mosins made in 1938, and coupled with the fact that it is duffle cut, we can safely rule that out from being a possibility. This rifle is a service member bringback, most likely from WWII or Korea, also with a slight possibility of coming from Vietnam. Congrats on the very cool rifle!
@@BigSamMosinMuseum awesome I just won it let me guess you were probably bidding too? Lol
Some information presented contradicts many other things I have read that site sources. Why, since the age of the internet, hasn't anyone reached out to people that actually worked in these arsenals during WWII? Not as many workers left now but 20 years ago could have been easily done. They are the unsung heros of any war.
Can I send picks of my 91/30 for more info
So, they used the ,... Finnish finish ? Gotta ask !
I would prefer refurbished
If my 91/59 was refurbished where is the mark I don't see it?
Big Sam........ Were they ever a good shooting gun? Or were they just built to sling lead? It would be insane if they were built junky!
It was a rifle designed to be wielded by mainly uneducated peasant class people. And they needed several millions of them. They were not "made to be junky" but they were made to be simple, reliable, and easy to produce. As far as if they were ever good shootin guns, they still see active duty service in several militaries as marksmen rifles. One of the few guns still in modern service after well over 100 years
Mine is a 1942 says Georgia UT. What is this was it made in Utah? I also have letters and like a square on the stock with a line going through it its a 91 30 so alo I see a mj or mc can't maout it its an c or j what are these marking on the stock
Georgia RUSSIA! U and T are likely T for Tula and U being a Russian marking for some other identification. There were Remington built Mosin's but I don't think it was in Utah!
What about the laminated stocks can you explain them
My m38 has a laminated stock. I think it’s rather pretty. It’s marked with the number 2 and something like a square with a diagonal line through it.
Of course there’s no finish like the Finnish finish.
Mine too...on a '40 Tula...it looks like a Ruger Gunsite Scout stock and the whole Rifle is the ''prettiest'' 91/30 I have seen. My '42 Izzy is really nice too but not like the Tula!@@robertmiedel4104
The 91/30 my late Father got in the mid '60's...no import marks, the stock has some dings, and has a dark, what I'd call an oil rubbed finish. The slots for the sling have no metal around them. No box refurbish stamps. The bolt is dark, not shiny. The receiver and barrel is dark, matte black, inside if receiver is in white. Marked with a triangle with an arrow, serial number is K, with 5 digits. Date stamped, 1943. What do I have?
Howdy sir, you are describing a 91/30 produced by the Izhevsk factory that is most likely a WWII or Korean War trophy
@@BigSamMosinMuseum It almost seems too nice for an original, unmessed with rifle. From what I discribed, could this be the original finish?
I love how we all say joe smoe 😂
Hey Big Sam got those stripper clips in will try them out in my mosins this weekend with each invidual performance.
no facts presented as far as markings it all seems, seems, seems, ,infer,infer,infer. Sorry Sam there are finite terms in regards to Mosin 91/30 what a bunch of BS This guy want to be a mosin expert. And that's OK just be aware this is information gained from a United States perspective rather than county's of origin
The numbers didnt even match on the so called non refurbished one
Is a fake mosin a thing?
what do you mean?