my friend, do you maintain the stance that avestan mithra, vedic mitra, and roman mithras are 3 different gods? Or do you think this is the same god in a different culture?
I don’t know the exact answer in a metaphysical sense. I treat them as the same god in three different cultures because they branched from one original god though. So it depends if one thinks a god can turn into a separate god over time due to cultural change or not. I lean toward them being the same god though, barring major reformation of the god concept.
Very good video but I wanted to mention that I heard in the video that mitra is a daeva, but that's never fully established in the Indian myths, while he is clearly an ahura in Iran. Did I miss something or
@@taliesinsmap7938 I think you guys are seriously onto something with the shared attributes so I would also suggest looking into mithra as a mediator between ahura mazda and ahriman, and his role against zurvan (chronos not cronus)
Taliesin just woke up today and choose violence. Anyways, your videos are always a treasure to have. And I'm tempted to download them if anything happens to your channel. If I have any questions, as you know, I'll leave a different thread for that.
Now, I don't know if the Beowulf poem presents clearly another mithraic figure in the form of Herebeald. He was killed by Hæþcyn in a hunting accident by an arrow shot. Hrethel dies of grief after hearing the news, and if you take a look at Baldr's own death, caused by Loki and Hödr, Odin grieves his son's demise. Odin, of course, does not die, but the concept is perfectly aligned, in a poem which is heavily packed with christian themes. Whether Hæþcyn is taking here the position of Hödr or Loki is not know, could be a perfect blend between the two characters. And, just a final note of this is the Swedish-Geatish wars in the poem, which might have some historical basis blended with mythological elements. The final and third swedish and geatish war has a Ragnarök aura. I know we are talking about Zeus vs the Dyaus dilemma, but maybe the Beowulf poem can also bring us more light of this topic. I once said that Zeus taking this important position was, maybe, of middle eastern origin or influence, mostly in his thunderer aspect. I think the greek did managed to preserve Zeus' OG position faithfully, with some thunderer characteristics stolen from a previous Thunderer that could've been known as Keraunos.
Mithra is Dyaus Pater - the Aditya cult which is now Vaishnavism but was Mithraism prior is the cult of Dyaus Pater aka Zeus. The Adityas are the faces of Dyaus as he travels through the zodiac. He is the celestial twin to the more cthonic Shiva, mirroring the relationship between Zeus and Hades but in reality they are the same dual natured god. You can see this in the PGM where Helios takes Zeus’ place as the “enemy of Typhon”, why? Cause they are one and the same. This is also why many of the children originally Dyaus’ end up being Suryas children later. This also why you see the same cult in the Semetic real under Jehovah/Yahweh just without the different “faces” that the Aditya cult has. Hence why Zeus and Yahweh were said to be the same in ancient times - also why there is a zodiac depicted in synagogues in Israel with Helios in the center when they were under Greek occupation. Jehovah - Dyaus - and Shiva are definitely all different ways of saying the same name. He’s called Jove in Rome which is the same as Yahweh. The closest letters to what would later become the letter J are an SH sound and Y, or I . The letters w, v, u, and b were all interchangeable. Hence why Sabazius is just another way of saying Shiva + Zius. The vowels are all interchangeable. This is also why Vishnu has the same iconography as Zeus - Garuda = Zeus’ eagle, he sleeps on Vasuki which goes with Zeus’ cthonic serpent form, and lion-headed Narasimha because Zeus rules the sign of Leo. Hence why we see the same lion headed god in Mithraism as AION which is just another name for IAO. This is all the same dual natured god!!!!!!!! If you say Shiva in one breath slowly you can’t help but subtly say an O between the I and V, hence Shi-o-va
@@lionofapollo4636 I think you missed the point. I said the Adityas aren’t really separate beings but are really one. And when the sun was in the prior sign Aries which in the Iranian and therefore Roman traditions Mithra was the Aditya or Sun god who ruled you can see in texts like the Greek Magical Papyri that Zeus was equated with both Helios and Mithra. Also in the PGM there is mentioning that Helios, rather than Zeus, was mentioned as “the enemy of Typhon” because Zeus which is just a TITLE is one and the same with the sun god. This is seen in Hinduism as Indra (whom the Greeks knew as Zeus) is an ADITYA, the Aditya of Leo which Ancient Greek sources say that is the sign that Zeus rules. If we go by myths matching up we’d never find any direct one to one correlation. These were all separate cults in ancient times and we look at these “pantheons” as if they’re static and that these deities are all separate when in reality once you start to learn about the occult and esotericism you find many deities overlap that are in the same pantheon and are really all separate forms of one deity.
I agree that Dyaus Pitar is not absolutely synonymous with Zeus, Jupiter/Jove, etc, alone. I use astrology as a coding system, and in that system Zeus/Jove is more Jovian or Sagittarian, wheareas the Sky Father is more Uranian or Aquarian, like Ouranos, Anu, and the like. However, the Sky/Day Father really has multiple aspects, one could say: the Sun/Leo (like Ra, Vishnu, Apollo, Helios, Soranus, Lugh, Balder, Mitra, etc), the Blue Sky/Aquarius (like Uranus, Ouranos, Aether, Anu, Brahma, Tengri, etc), and the Stormy Sky/Sagittarius (like Zeus, Jupiter, Jove, Vejovis, Iapetus, Thor, Perun, Indra, Marduk, etc). And if you want, as you argued, you could include the Dark Father/Scorpio (Pluto, Hades, Dispater, Yemo, Yama, etc). This would make 4 deities, however, although, to your point the Jupiter, Uranus, and Pluto trinity does seem to speak to an Indo-European background. The Sun God, however, is also an imporant Indo-European motif, although, I think it comes from a non-Indo-European source, from the Early Neolithic Farmers from Anatolia and ultimately the Levantine Natufians, who spread agriculture throughout Europe, including to the PIE (via the Cucuteni-Trypillian Calcholithic culture). For instance, Norse myths refer to the Vanir, whose primary deities (Frey, Freya, Njord) were more agricultural in nature, implying them to be the gods of the Neolithic Farmers before the Indo-Europeans. Also, in my research, an alternative sky god linguistics relates to Dingir (Sumerian), Tengri (Turko-Mongolic), Tian (Chinese), Dellingr (Norse), for example, which has some relationship with Deus, but seems, to me, to be pre-Indo-European. These weren't mentioned, so I'd encourage you to check out some non-Indo-European sources as well. I don't quite agree with the conflation of every one of these aspects into Mitra, especially considering Mithraism was a later syncretic religion which tended more and more monotheistic as it went along, conflating most gods with Mithras. As far as I'm concerned, the original Mitra relates more to deities like Teutates, Apollo, and most clearly, Vishnu. He's also conflated with Attis, who actually has more to do with Kronos/Saturnus/Capricorn, too. Syncretic religions get very complicated very fast. I don't see why you feel the need to conflate Mitra with Zeus; Indra is clearly more aligned with Zeus, even thematically. Mitra actually has more in common with the themes of Libra, far from Sagittarian. To interperet Mithraic philosophy without astrology is aimless. As for the origins of Zeus/Jove, I have found it to be in Vejovis and Zabazios. Do you guys have a Discord or something that you chat at? I'd love to share my research and wiki database with ya'll, it sounds like you have studied a few areas that I haven't yet. My database uses Obsidian, and tries to connect and code all of these connections in a more visual way.
I can see that we use quite different frameworks, and so we will reach different conclusions. The reasoning for Zeus being Mitra is explained in my articles in more detail, and this video and a couple others touch on the shared myths and why Zeus was originally the same god as the Mitra type as well. We do discuss on the Mythology Ignited Discord occasionally, which should appear if you google that.
The Early European Farmers weren't Natufian, but were Anatolian, and were related to the Natufians. Afaik, Tengri and Dingir aren't etymologically related
@@aramkaizer7903 I don't see how what I said about the Natufians is any different from what you just said. You know exactly what I meant. And is there a linguistic study looking into Dellingr, Dingir, Tengri, etc that you can cite? I merely meant to say it's a curious coincidence worth looking into. Their motifs are certainly similar, nonetheless.
I take the classic interpretation. Indra = Zeus (not equal to Thor) Varuna = Poseidon Yama = Hades Dyeus is a faded out early abstract precursor of a non-personified Zeus which is exactly what Uranus is. Sky worship (Uranus) gives way to earth worship (Cronus) that in turn gives way to Sky worship (Zeus) once again. Like they couldn't decide which they owed their life to more, the fertile earth or the life giving rain.
I agree with you that Dyaus is Ouranos of course. Most people don’t know that Zeus is Mitra, because most people have no clue what Mitra’s mythos looks like.
Ahaaa because, my friend, { Enlil = Set = Vishnu = Zeus = Jupiter = Thor = Mithra = Metatron = MichaEL } And in some civilizations such as greece, the name would end up too confused with that of that father because they would worship this right arm of God just as wrongly as they would worship the fallen arm of God and call him similar titles to that of the father as well.
@@exucaviera9084 yes, if im blunt i do hate it because its not based in blunt and direct history or etymology, rather its based in self interpretation and altered discernment. You have to follow the archetype of The Creator, and his two arms the Preserver, and the Destroyer. And then study what each title means for each god of every civilization
my friend, do you maintain the stance that avestan mithra, vedic mitra, and roman mithras are 3 different gods? Or do you think this is the same god in a different culture?
I don’t know the exact answer in a metaphysical sense. I treat them as the same god in three different cultures because they branched from one original god though. So it depends if one thinks a god can turn into a separate god over time due to cultural change or not. I lean toward them being the same god though, barring major reformation of the god concept.
Very good video but I wanted to mention that I heard in the video that mitra is a daeva, but that's never fully established in the Indian myths, while he is clearly an ahura in Iran. Did I miss something or
I was wondering about this question as well, but was not sure. I’ll see if Josephus wants to respond. Good question though.
@@taliesinsmap7938 I think you guys are seriously onto something with the shared attributes so I would also suggest looking into mithra as a mediator between ahura mazda and ahriman, and his role against zurvan (chronos not cronus)
Good point, thanks for the comment
He's considered an Aditya, children of Aditi, goddess of eternity, counterpart, perhaps, of Athit/Athir/Aether, in a sense, as a god of eternity.
Taliesin just woke up today and choose violence. Anyways, your videos are always a treasure to have. And I'm tempted to download them if anything happens to your channel. If I have any questions, as you know, I'll leave a different thread for that.
Thanks my man. Always love to discuss. thanks for tuning in.
Now, I don't know if the Beowulf poem presents clearly another mithraic figure in the form of Herebeald. He was killed by Hæþcyn in a hunting accident by an arrow shot. Hrethel dies of grief after hearing the news, and if you take a look at Baldr's own death, caused by Loki and Hödr, Odin grieves his son's demise. Odin, of course, does not die, but the concept is perfectly aligned, in a poem which is heavily packed with christian themes. Whether Hæþcyn is taking here the position of Hödr or Loki is not know, could be a perfect blend between the two characters.
And, just a final note of this is the Swedish-Geatish wars in the poem, which might have some historical basis blended with mythological elements. The final and third swedish and geatish war has a Ragnarök aura.
I know we are talking about Zeus vs the Dyaus dilemma, but maybe the Beowulf poem can also bring us more light of this topic.
I once said that Zeus taking this important position was, maybe, of middle eastern origin or influence, mostly in his thunderer aspect. I think the greek did managed to preserve Zeus' OG position faithfully, with some thunderer characteristics stolen from a previous Thunderer that could've been known as Keraunos.
Mithra is Dyaus Pater - the Aditya cult which is now Vaishnavism but was Mithraism prior is the cult of Dyaus Pater aka Zeus. The Adityas are the faces of Dyaus as he travels through the zodiac. He is the celestial twin to the more cthonic Shiva, mirroring the relationship between Zeus and Hades but in reality they are the same dual natured god. You can see this in the PGM where Helios takes Zeus’ place as the “enemy of Typhon”, why? Cause they are one and the same. This is also why many of the children originally Dyaus’ end up being Suryas children later. This also why you see the same cult in the Semetic real under Jehovah/Yahweh just without the different “faces” that the Aditya cult has. Hence why Zeus and Yahweh were said to be the same in ancient times - also why there is a zodiac depicted in synagogues in Israel with Helios in the center when they were under Greek occupation. Jehovah - Dyaus - and Shiva are definitely all different ways of saying the same name. He’s called Jove in Rome which is the same as Yahweh. The closest letters to what would later become the letter J are an SH sound and Y, or I . The letters w, v, u, and b were all interchangeable. Hence why Sabazius is just another way of saying Shiva + Zius. The vowels are all interchangeable. This is also why Vishnu has the same iconography as Zeus - Garuda = Zeus’ eagle, he sleeps on Vasuki which goes with Zeus’ cthonic serpent form, and lion-headed Narasimha because Zeus rules the sign of Leo. Hence why we see the same lion headed god in Mithraism as AION which is just another name for IAO. This is all the same dual natured god!!!!!!!! If you say Shiva in one breath slowly you can’t help but subtly say an O between the I and V, hence Shi-o-va
Its only etymology that seemingly links the names of Dyaus and Zeus. Their myths do not link up.
@@lionofapollo4636 I think you missed the point. I said the Adityas aren’t really separate beings but are really one. And when the sun was in the prior sign Aries which in the Iranian and therefore Roman traditions Mithra was the Aditya or Sun god who ruled you can see in texts like the Greek Magical Papyri that Zeus was equated with both Helios and Mithra. Also in the PGM there is mentioning that Helios, rather than Zeus, was mentioned as “the enemy of Typhon” because Zeus which is just a TITLE is one and the same with the sun god. This is seen in Hinduism as Indra (whom the Greeks knew as Zeus) is an ADITYA, the Aditya of Leo which Ancient Greek sources say that is the sign that Zeus rules. If we go by myths matching up we’d never find any direct one to one correlation. These were all separate cults in ancient times and we look at these “pantheons” as if they’re static and that these deities are all separate when in reality once you start to learn about the occult and esotericism you find many deities overlap that are in the same pantheon and are really all separate forms of one deity.
@@lionofapollo4636 etymology is a lot more solid than trying to find myths to match up perfectly
Actually not at all, as your example makes clear
I agree all gods are part of a totality godhead and overlap at times, but I disagree these gods are all the same “thing” in the way you say
I agree that Dyaus Pitar is not absolutely synonymous with Zeus, Jupiter/Jove, etc, alone. I use astrology as a coding system, and in that system Zeus/Jove is more Jovian or Sagittarian, wheareas the Sky Father is more Uranian or Aquarian, like Ouranos, Anu, and the like. However, the Sky/Day Father really has multiple aspects, one could say: the Sun/Leo (like Ra, Vishnu, Apollo, Helios, Soranus, Lugh, Balder, Mitra, etc), the Blue Sky/Aquarius (like Uranus, Ouranos, Aether, Anu, Brahma, Tengri, etc), and the Stormy Sky/Sagittarius (like Zeus, Jupiter, Jove, Vejovis, Iapetus, Thor, Perun, Indra, Marduk, etc). And if you want, as you argued, you could include the Dark Father/Scorpio (Pluto, Hades, Dispater, Yemo, Yama, etc).
This would make 4 deities, however, although, to your point the Jupiter, Uranus, and Pluto trinity does seem to speak to an Indo-European background. The Sun God, however, is also an imporant Indo-European motif, although, I think it comes from a non-Indo-European source, from the Early Neolithic Farmers from Anatolia and ultimately the Levantine Natufians, who spread agriculture throughout Europe, including to the PIE (via the Cucuteni-Trypillian Calcholithic culture). For instance, Norse myths refer to the Vanir, whose primary deities (Frey, Freya, Njord) were more agricultural in nature, implying them to be the gods of the Neolithic Farmers before the Indo-Europeans.
Also, in my research, an alternative sky god linguistics relates to Dingir (Sumerian), Tengri (Turko-Mongolic), Tian (Chinese), Dellingr (Norse), for example, which has some relationship with Deus, but seems, to me, to be pre-Indo-European. These weren't mentioned, so I'd encourage you to check out some non-Indo-European sources as well.
I don't quite agree with the conflation of every one of these aspects into Mitra, especially considering Mithraism was a later syncretic religion which tended more and more monotheistic as it went along, conflating most gods with Mithras. As far as I'm concerned, the original Mitra relates more to deities like Teutates, Apollo, and most clearly, Vishnu. He's also conflated with Attis, who actually has more to do with Kronos/Saturnus/Capricorn, too. Syncretic religions get very complicated very fast. I don't see why you feel the need to conflate Mitra with Zeus; Indra is clearly more aligned with Zeus, even thematically. Mitra actually has more in common with the themes of Libra, far from Sagittarian. To interperet Mithraic philosophy without astrology is aimless. As for the origins of Zeus/Jove, I have found it to be in Vejovis and Zabazios.
Do you guys have a Discord or something that you chat at? I'd love to share my research and wiki database with ya'll, it sounds like you have studied a few areas that I haven't yet. My database uses Obsidian, and tries to connect and code all of these connections in a more visual way.
I can see that we use quite different frameworks, and so we will reach different conclusions. The reasoning for Zeus being Mitra is explained in my articles in more detail, and this video and a couple others touch on the shared myths and why Zeus was originally the same god as the Mitra type as well.
We do discuss on the Mythology Ignited Discord occasionally, which should appear if you google that.
@@taliesinsmap7938 I'll check out the server! Where are your articles? I don't see them in the description.
@@taliesinsmap7938very true hope you got my other comment
The Early European Farmers weren't Natufian, but were Anatolian, and were related to the Natufians.
Afaik, Tengri and Dingir aren't etymologically related
@@aramkaizer7903 I don't see how what I said about the Natufians is any different from what you just said. You know exactly what I meant.
And is there a linguistic study looking into Dellingr, Dingir, Tengri, etc that you can cite? I merely meant to say it's a curious coincidence worth looking into. Their motifs are certainly similar, nonetheless.
I take the classic interpretation.
Indra = Zeus (not equal to Thor)
Varuna = Poseidon
Yama = Hades
Dyeus is a faded out early abstract precursor of a non-personified Zeus which is exactly what Uranus is.
Sky worship (Uranus) gives way to earth worship (Cronus) that in turn gives way to Sky worship (Zeus) once again. Like they couldn't decide which they owed their life to more, the fertile earth or the life giving rain.
I agree with you that Dyaus is Ouranos of course. Most people don’t know that Zeus is Mitra, because most people have no clue what Mitra’s mythos looks like.
Ahaaa because, my friend,
{ Enlil = Set = Vishnu = Zeus = Jupiter = Thor = Mithra = Metatron = MichaEL }
And in some civilizations such as greece, the name would end up too confused with that of that father because they would worship this right arm of God just as wrongly as they would worship the fallen arm of God and call him similar titles to that of the father as well.
…no. Vishnu is God. Plain and simple.
@@Astavyastataa literally no. Vishnu is the avatar of preservation of God BrahmaN/Atman. If you think otherwise you’re not a hindu.
@@TheArmchairPriest wrong. Your mind has been twisted by Semitic garbage.
You're gonna hate my interpretation..
Enlil = Cronus = Geb = Shiva
Enki = Oceanus = Sobek = Vishnu
Baal = Zeus = Seth = Indra
Kothar = Hephaestus = Thor = Vishvakarma
@@exucaviera9084 yes, if im blunt i do hate it because its not based in blunt and direct history or etymology, rather its based in self interpretation and altered discernment.
You have to follow the archetype of The Creator, and his two arms the Preserver, and the Destroyer.
And then study what each title means for each god of every civilization