Yes, that was my thought when I came back and was editing the video. Already solved that question, after multiple tests with different pads, now I sleep on Sea to Summit Camp mat with R value 4.3
7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1
Ouch 😅 Going tomorrow to the mountain with the same liner, 10C bag and total of 5R pad(s)
@@schiebmichdoch7517 It wasn’t that cold night. I used the liner as a bedsheet by having it over sleeping pad. Some wind so everything up to waist inside of a bivvy. I will keep the liner in the kit.
I am an ultra distance gravel bike racer and I have this liner. I have a down jacket, trousers and booties (in place of a sleeping bag) this liner and an Alpkit Cloudbase mattress. I’ve been using the liner for about 2 years. I would say that without a sleeping bag, this on its own gives you about +5 degrees and cuts out wind. The down booties really help with the cold feet.
The reading of recommended temperatures on your sleeping bag are plainly wrong. The only valid temp is the Confort one. The other two are references (in theory and in op. circumstances). If you were sleeping at -2 you were already waaaaay out of range for that bag. The liner does not perform magic.
Bags only trap warmth not generate it though so going past the rating meant it was never going to work properly. You cant add warmth to what isnt there. Wrong set up for the test 100%.
I agree, I was about to recommend an air filled mat (better isolation - layer 1), a single aluminium cover (reflective first aid plaid - silver side up - layer 2), maybe you add an air bubble package (but considering the volume it will take - layer 3) and someone advised me to wear a beanie to avoid cold feet (as we loose warmth from the head). Someone else having different experiences? Thanks a lot Tomas, greets from Belgium
I do a lot of winter camping and sometimes I sleep without the liner at first, and just put it on top of my pillow because it also feels nice there, but then when it starts to get really cold at about 2 or 3 in the morning and I'm feeling chilly, I get inside the liner and sleeping bag, cinch up both the liner and the sleeping bag, and then I feel warm enough to sleep comfortably until sunrise, so I can definitely say that if you sleep in colder temperatures this liner is definitely worth it and does make a big difference. Also, the material is soft and comfortable for sleeping. The type I use is also the reactor extreme version. I've used it for about 5 years.
For those conditions you need a better sleeping bag and a better sleeping pad or a thin foam pad underneath your air matress , insulation from the cold ground is key. That liner at best will only give you a you a couple of degrees more, not 15 degrees even with a top bag. Liners are worth the money but as you you say they are only as good as the sleeping bag you put them in. You shouldn't need to wear your warm jacket inside your bag. It's counter productive and means when you get up you don't have anything to put on that will keep you warm.
I can see that you're using wrong sleeping pad for this test. That pad has very low R-value and this wrong choice for that temperature. Becasue of this this test is not valid.
In the early spring and late automne, I apreciate the liner so much! My bag is up to -0 - but with the liner gives it the nessesary temperature to sleep very comfortable. If I wake up, its mostly because of to much heat - then out of the internal bag and go on sleeping. Due to space and weight, its always with me, if its cold. Especialy - it makes the first time in the bag more comfortabl due to the cosynes.
Thermal liners are really only good for making very warm bags even warmer. A bag that's not so warm will see little to no improvement because the additional heat created by the liner just goes right through it. This is just a more straightforward version of what you've already said, of course, but some people might not understand what you mean by it being a sleeping bag problem and needing to upgrade the bag before the liner works effectively.
I'm not a fan of liners, but if I were going to go that route, I would go w/the Alpaca liner from Appalachian Gear Co. It also is a personal thing in regards to if you sleep hot or cold. I sleep quite hot so I typically use a quilt, in lieu of a bag.
I live in northern Central USA and it gets to -20 C in the winter on most normal nights. I use a Reactor Extreme with my -20 C bag and feel OK on my multi-night cross country ski trips in the Boundary Waters and forest land.
I have been cold too many nights, and I won't repeat my mistake. I use a hot water bottle, but also a quality thermos that keeps water boiling hot till morning. If I need to, I'll swap the water for the hot one and get my water bottle hot again. IF I dont need it, I have hot water for morning coffee and oats. both bottles are 750ml. Place the bottle in between thighs. Got a large artery there. As a recent extra I have added warming pads. Torso ones - if body is hot, heat will disperse to extremities. I'll stick it to my belly or high up in my thigh, whichever is easier. If I get near my sleeping bag's comfort temperature (0ºC) I put one in my sleeping bag next to my water filter. I keep my gloves, beanie and neck buff near me as well, in case I need to put them on. I've a water-resistant bivvy which can block wind really well. I have used just that, a liner and maybe a blanket - during hot summer nights. Easy to ventilate. It's best for Midseason. In the wintertime, near freezing temps, you might get condensation in/outside of it, which is terrible. But I'll still use it if tarp/bivvy camping ofc. Blocks wind. As someone else said, don't use your puffy inside. youll need it if getting out. Fleece is better inside sleeping bag - personal opinion. Anyways there's plenty more information out there. I wrote while the video was ending and I'm done. Thanks for sharing your experience
Just a suggestion. If you need to use hot water bottle to keep warm #1 your bag is not rated for the temperature, or #2 you are exhausted from the day of x country skiing or backpacking and or you did not resupply your stomach furnace at supper. #3 you were not acclimated to the weather. My wife and I have cross country skied in the back country for a week in a three season sleeping bags with no problem or bag liner, using a 1/4inch thick closed cell foam pad. The overnight temperature was around -30 C.
Not aclimatized, thats likely my issue. I go on bicycle aventures on weekends, between work. So body doesnt have enough time to get used to it. Probably exhausted as well, cuz I do exhert myself on the first day IF I leave friday afternoon to get to camp. Because my trips are short, I get up as soon as I wake up, and go to bed only when I have to, so that might be part of it too.@@tomsitzman3952 Eating before and while in the sleeping bag is a great tip! Having two people inside a tent probably makes a big difference in heat radiation, or at least warming up the air inside tents. I don't tent camp either, so there's that. I either hammock camp in my Draumr, or I tarp/bivvy camp. Drafts play a major role in both setups, as they steal a lot of my heat too. I've used my Draumr at 12ºC nights, with my 0ºC Bag an pad, and i've been cold. Tarp configuration, wind strength and angles play a crucial role.
Tomas, From watching the video. Were your shoulders fully inside the sleeping bag, with only you head sticking out and the draw string tight? The sleeping bag does not produce heat. Your body produces the heat and the sleeping system tramps the heat inside the sleeping bag. If the draw string was not tight every time you moved your body squeezed the warm air out of your bag. With the down jacket and head cover you should have been warm at -5C. The most difficult problem with the Sea to Summit liner is getting back inside in in the middle of the night aft going to pee.
Yes ofcourse, I was fully inside the bag. The only parts that were sticking out was nose & mouth. Sometimes even nothing because I pulled liner over my face. *the way that I was laying with shoulders stciking out was after I setup camera.
I have slept out twice in a light weight summer (minimum 5c)sleeping bag twice when it got down to -8c I did this to save weight and space.All i can say about it is it is better than nothing but you'll be cold!I hadn't thought about trying a liner.
I forget the exact reasoning behind it, but I've seen a convincing argument made that for maximum benefit from a liner, it should be used *outside* the bag, not inside it. Counter-intuitive I know, but the explanation made a lot of sense.
Some people do tend to fixate on 'getting your body warmth into the loft of the down' without barriers in between. Presumably they sleep butt naked it their bags, and get dressed again every time they need to pee.😅
To do a true comparison you’ll need to spend a weekend when the temp stays the same all weekend. Eat and drink the same everyday. Chances are a few years ago you were lighter in stature too. My wife bought me this reactor bag and I’ve never used it. At best I’d assume it just keeps my bag clean
I don't agree with your conclusion or the theory about bag suitability. The reason is that insulation can be expressed as an R value regardless of the type or purpose of the insulation, as long as the molecular phase & structure of the insulation material is unchanged & it's insulation properties remain unaffected by condensation etc. Basically R value is a measure of the rate that thermal energy is lost through a material. If there is a fixed heat source enclosed by insulation of a known surface area, then no matter how what the outside temperature, the inside temperature will remain the same fixed number of degrees above the outside temperature. This means that if your bag alone can keep you comfortable down to 11 C, then adding the +15C liner should enable you to have comfortable sleep down to -6 C. The comments I have heard from other hikers commonly suggest that the ratings on these liners are simply unrealistic. I do have a lighter weight reactor liner than that one. I'd say it does make a difference, but not nearly as much as is claimed. However, another point to consider is that your body does not necessarily produced a constant fixed heat output. Most hikers fuel up on carbohydrates, these cannot be absorbed through the gut wall in that form as the carbohydrate molecule is too large. Digestion breaks it down into sugar for absorption into the blood stream. This causes an insulation response to control the blood sugar spike, so the body works very hard to convert the excess into fat and store that away in fat cells. The upshot of this is that you will at some point during the night have an energy deficit & be unable to generate the heat you had earlier, unless you eat again. The only other source of energy for people is fats. The traditional source of energy for hunting peoples such as the native North Americans was animal fat. What they did was make and store pemmican. This can be stored a long time & is what got them through the severe winters as well as fueling their endurance hunting (running prey into heat exhaustion). Pemmican is made by drying lean muscle meat, crushing it into a powder & then mixing this with an equal weight of animal fat (Tallow or Dripping), then letting that solidify into convenient serving sizes. Sometimes that would add herbs & berries for taste. Some people on keto and carnivore make their own Pemmican. I am older and can no longer tolerate carbohydrate as it is the primary cause of inflammatory diseases & associated pain. If fact I nearly died & in desperation went on an elimination diet which identified all forms of carbohydrate as the cause of inflammation. So I modified my diet accordingly & only then discovered it is called a keto diet. These days, I am active again & completely inflammation & pain free with no regular drugs at all despite have been constantly dependent on them for decades, just to remain barely functional at work. So, this is a bit of a revelation that flies in the face of the standard dietary advise us boomers grew up with. Anyway, the point of this in terms of temperature at night is that fueling with fat rather than carbs provides a significantly more sustained and stable energy release over longer periods of time, such as through a long dark winter night. You may well find this more useful for getting through a cold night with minimal gear. Certainly it seems to work that way for me. If I get cold, I take that as a sign I need more energy & for that reason, my pemmican stash is close to hand.
I mostly use cotton liners as I use an army 2 bag modular system that seems fine at -20.C but been thinking about a fleece or better liner. If it’s really cold I triple bag.
I have the liner. Once you wash it 2-3 times the insulation become worthless you can see through it. But yes it will protect the inside of your sleeping bag.
I have that liner! I think 15C might be a little optimistic what it does, but I wore it when the temperatures got down below the 5C comfort rating of my down bag in my recent video...and I was too hot! I had to take off the liner and my base layers in the middle of the night. It also depends on your sleeping mattress rating - mine is R4. I suspect you can maybe get away with a liner and a 3 season bag with a warmer pad, but not tried that out yet. I now have a R 5.8 pad so will do so in future.
Liner promised 15°F (9°C), did it deliver? Obviously not. For the same 342g, Cumulus has a sleeping bag comfort-rated to 4°C - or it will add 24°C to your existing bag. Liners almost never make sense. Even if one seeks to justify a liner on the basis of protecting the sleeping bag from hiker-grime, then get the lightest-weight liner, But don't count on liners for thermal advantage, because they are never worth their weight.
Ha haaa all this + degrees quoted by manufacturers are wrong. Liner is essential to keep the bag clean and dry but add much less warmth than expected. I have a bag with almost identical temp guidance and I've slept in same temps as your test, I had to wear all my clothes. I can say your test is 100% accurate. I now use a thin silk liner as it is lighter and protects the bag the same. For extra use a warmth a warmer bag!!! (Or a cheap thin second bag as outer). Another trick is add a zip to bottom of your jacket and cut a cheap sleeping bag to be waist height only and add the other half of the zip to that so it zips to bottom of jacket and use that inside sleeping bag
Without counting money, only weight: a better investment for comfort at night is a regular sleeping bag from cumulus with 400gr.of weight. It is not that much bigger of package. For better hygienic use a silk inliner. Just my 2 Cents
I meeean, not everybody have that amount of money to spend just on sleeping bags. All countries are different in that term. So sometimes we buy what we can afford, and we trust it will be a good solution.
Nice test, and good points in the comments. BTW, you probably want to replace this Baofeng with something more durable and waterproof, like yaesu VX series (VX-8dr with gps and aprs) or Icom IC-T10
Those liners will add about 5 C. Your bag rating (if it's even accurate) was 7 C for the limit. If it was 0 C when you started, it was already too cold for the liner to make up the difference. The combined bag and liner would have been comfortable at 6 C. The "extreme" rating means you'll survive but be miserable at minus 5. That's a summer bag if it's comfort rated to 11 C.
Never go to bed with all of your layering. add a layer later if you feel cold. . Btw, you are so beginner to talk about gear or doing review. You will understand it a couple of years later.
I didn't see a mention of a sleeping pad R value, which is CRUCIAL in cold weather. A plain air one is for cushioning only. Proper insulation below is necessary. I have that liner and it does add warmth containment, but it is only a part of your system. That bag, as you know, was not sufficient, and neither was the pad I suspect. Without the liner, you would likely have been considerably less comfortble. You need to prepare for temperatures below what a forecast is to be safe. Weather reports are wrong often enough.
this is exceptionally flawed. So you have -2°C temp outside and bag rated with 11/7/-5. Lets start with bag, I really liked this explanation of these values. comfort(11): this is the least temp, where average (sporty, not shoppaholic)female will sleep good. Limit(7): the least temp where 20y old male will be ok with some shivering and generally not a good sleep. extreme(-5): you will survive, but might not be the same person as you were yesterday (i.e. cut of fingers/limbs etc.). So taking this bag close to it's extreme values was not a good idea. BUT if liner actually adds 15°C, then, -2 + 15 = 13°C right?, you being man should have had a very good sleep. You was miserable? What does it mean? The liner does NOT work anywhere near the claimed values, and is NOT a good investment. Yes, your bag was unfit for temperature, and shall be replaced, if you want to sleep in such temps, but I'd say the liner can do 3-5°C difference. Did the liner work a little for you? Yes, without it you would be far worse, but you really should not be equipping yourself for dire survival ~ Liner is not pointless, I woulnd't toss it, as it protects your bag from dirty clothing and protects it, but for this money I'd rather buy trousers/jacket to sleep in, which you can use through day as well. ~ btw. keep 'buffer' in your sleeping bag capabilities, aim for comfort. You might get injured, sick, very tired, weather might change a lot. If you already planning survival in your ideal/expected scenario, when things go bad ... Aim for comfort instead, even if things go unpredictably wrong, you still have chance
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Don't skip considering how much the sleeping pad is at fault.
Yes, that was my thought when I came back and was editing the video. Already solved that question, after multiple tests with different pads, now I sleep on Sea to Summit Camp mat with R value 4.3
Ouch 😅 Going tomorrow to the mountain with the same liner, 10C bag and total of 5R pad(s)
@ did the liner made its job ?
@@schiebmichdoch7517 It wasn’t that cold night. I used the liner as a bedsheet by having it over sleeping pad. Some wind so everything up to waist inside of a bivvy. I will keep the liner in the kit.
I am an ultra distance gravel bike racer and I have this liner. I have a down jacket, trousers and booties (in place of a sleeping bag) this liner and an Alpkit Cloudbase mattress. I’ve been using the liner for about 2 years. I would say that without a sleeping bag, this on its own gives you about +5 degrees and cuts out wind. The down booties really help with the cold feet.
I bought one of those Summit Reactor Extreme liners, it does not keep me warmer, but I continued to use it to protect the inside of my bag.
Yeah, I'm probably doing the same thing👍
The reading of recommended temperatures on your sleeping bag are plainly wrong. The only valid temp is the Confort one. The other two are references (in theory and in op. circumstances). If you were sleeping at -2 you were already waaaaay out of range for that bag. The liner does not perform magic.
I know how to read sleep. bag temperature ratings, this night was just for test purposes of the liner. I love to test things at it extreme 😉
I agree. Looking at the thickness of that sleeping bag, I think the comfort rating should be more lke +20ºC!!!
Bags only trap warmth not generate it though so going past the rating meant it was never going to work properly. You cant add warmth to what isnt there. Wrong set up for the test 100%.
You could have the warmest Sleeping bag. When you have a Bad insulation mat. You will freeze.
Yeah, definitely. Already fixed that issue
I agree, I was about to recommend an air filled mat (better isolation - layer 1), a single aluminium cover (reflective first aid plaid - silver side up - layer 2), maybe you add an air bubble package (but considering the volume it will take - layer 3) and someone advised me to wear a beanie to avoid cold feet (as we loose warmth from the head). Someone else having different experiences? Thanks a lot Tomas, greets from Belgium
I do a lot of winter camping and sometimes I sleep without the liner at first, and just put it on top of my pillow because it also feels nice there, but then when it starts to get really cold at about 2 or 3 in the morning and I'm feeling chilly, I get inside the liner and sleeping bag, cinch up both the liner and the sleeping bag, and then I feel warm enough to sleep comfortably until sunrise, so I can definitely say that if you sleep in colder temperatures this liner is definitely worth it and does make a big difference. Also, the material is soft and comfortable for sleeping. The type I use is also the reactor extreme version. I've used it for about 5 years.
For those conditions you need a better sleeping bag and a better sleeping pad or a thin foam pad underneath your air matress , insulation from the cold ground is key.
That liner at best will only give you a you a couple of degrees more, not 15 degrees even with a top bag.
Liners are worth the money but as you you say they are only as good as the sleeping bag you put them in.
You shouldn't need to wear your warm jacket inside your bag. It's counter productive and means when you get up you don't have anything to put on that will keep you warm.
I can see that you're using wrong sleeping pad for this test. That pad has very low R-value and this wrong choice for that temperature. Becasue of this this test is not valid.
Yes, I was definitely. Thas issue was fixed this winter, no more mistakes with that.
In the early spring and late automne, I apreciate the liner so much! My bag is up to -0 - but with the liner gives it the nessesary temperature to sleep very comfortable. If I wake up, its mostly because of to much heat - then out of the internal bag and go on sleeping. Due to space and weight, its always with me, if its cold. Especialy - it makes the first time in the bag more comfortabl due to the cosynes.
At the very least, the liner is very comfy and a good idea if you don’t want to have to worry about cleaning your sleeping bag.
Thermal liners are really only good for making very warm bags even warmer. A bag that's not so warm will see little to no improvement because the additional heat created by the liner just goes right through it. This is just a more straightforward version of what you've already said, of course, but some people might not understand what you mean by it being a sleeping bag problem and needing to upgrade the bag before the liner works effectively.
Definitely 😇
I'm not a fan of liners, but if I were going to go that route, I would go w/the Alpaca liner from Appalachian Gear Co. It also is a personal thing in regards to if you sleep hot or cold. I sleep quite hot so I typically use a quilt, in lieu of a bag.
We all have our own preferences 🤗
I live in northern Central USA and it gets to -20 C in the winter on most normal nights. I use a Reactor Extreme with my -20 C bag and feel OK on my multi-night cross country ski trips in the Boundary Waters and forest land.
A fellow Baltic person! Love from Lietuva.
Aciu, broli 🤩
Nice video. I have one of these and will finally be using it to enhance the warmth of my sleeping bag on a climb of Kilimanjaro.
I have been cold too many nights, and I won't repeat my mistake. I use a hot water bottle, but also a quality thermos that keeps water boiling hot till morning. If I need to, I'll swap the water for the hot one and get my water bottle hot again. IF I dont need it, I have hot water for morning coffee and oats. both bottles are 750ml. Place the bottle in between thighs. Got a large artery there.
As a recent extra I have added warming pads. Torso ones - if body is hot, heat will disperse to extremities. I'll stick it to my belly or high up in my thigh, whichever is easier. If I get near my sleeping bag's comfort temperature (0ºC) I put one in my sleeping bag next to my water filter.
I keep my gloves, beanie and neck buff near me as well, in case I need to put them on.
I've a water-resistant bivvy which can block wind really well. I have used just that, a liner and maybe a blanket - during hot summer nights. Easy to ventilate. It's best for Midseason. In the wintertime, near freezing temps, you might get condensation in/outside of it, which is terrible. But I'll still use it if tarp/bivvy camping ofc. Blocks wind.
As someone else said, don't use your puffy inside. youll need it if getting out. Fleece is better inside sleeping bag - personal opinion.
Anyways there's plenty more information out there. I wrote while the video was ending and I'm done.
Thanks for sharing your experience
Just a suggestion. If you need to use hot water bottle to keep warm #1 your bag is not rated for the temperature, or #2 you are exhausted from the day of x country skiing or backpacking and or you did not resupply your stomach furnace at supper. #3 you were not acclimated to the weather. My wife and I have cross country skied in the back country for a week in a three season sleeping bags with no problem or bag liner, using a 1/4inch thick closed cell foam pad. The overnight temperature was around -30 C.
Not aclimatized, thats likely my issue. I go on bicycle aventures on weekends, between work. So body doesnt have enough time to get used to it.
Probably exhausted as well, cuz I do exhert myself on the first day IF I leave friday afternoon to get to camp. Because my trips are short, I get up as soon as I wake up, and go to bed only when I have to, so that might be part of it too.@@tomsitzman3952
Eating before and while in the sleeping bag is a great tip!
Having two people inside a tent probably makes a big difference in heat radiation, or at least warming up the air inside tents.
I don't tent camp either, so there's that. I either hammock camp in my Draumr, or I tarp/bivvy camp. Drafts play a major role in both setups, as they steal a lot of my heat too. I've used my Draumr at 12ºC nights, with my 0ºC Bag an pad, and i've been cold. Tarp configuration, wind strength and angles play a crucial role.
🙂
I Really expected more from the sleeping Liner.
Keep making good videos and great content. Keep doing it.
Thanks a lot!
Tomas, From watching the video. Were your shoulders fully inside the sleeping bag, with only you head sticking out and the draw string tight? The sleeping bag does not produce heat. Your body produces the heat and the sleeping system tramps the heat inside the sleeping bag. If the draw string was not tight every time you moved your body squeezed the warm air out of your bag. With the down jacket and head cover you should have been warm at -5C. The most difficult problem with the Sea to Summit liner is getting back inside in in the middle of the night aft going to pee.
Yes ofcourse, I was fully inside the bag. The only parts that were sticking out was nose & mouth. Sometimes even nothing because I pulled liner over my face.
*the way that I was laying with shoulders stciking out was after I setup camera.
I miss Latvia. I hope to go back someday
Don't forget to subscribe, soon will be a new video with the beautiful scenery of Latvia 😍
The problem was the pad… not warm enough …
Its r-value is lower than 2… for that temperatures you should use at least a 4
Yeah, definitely that was also a big problem.
I had this cold fet problem before and was lucky to have a plastic shopping bag to put my feet into
Yes, I also used it previously. Now I'm looking into the camping down booties.
Interesting review! Thanks! Good luck with achieving more subscribers and of course waiting for new hiking videos and inspiration 🎉😊
One hiking video is in progress, hoping to get it done by the end of the week 😌
I have slept out twice in a light weight summer (minimum 5c)sleeping bag twice when it got down to -8c I did this to save weight and space.All i can say about it is it is better than nothing but you'll be cold!I hadn't thought about trying a liner.
Bro really went off the “survival” rating 🥶🤣
Thick wool socks and down booties makes a huge difference
I have one and love it. It is very comfortable to sleep in. I would say it gives me +5 C. I use a pad with R value of 4.6.
I forget the exact reasoning behind it, but I've seen a convincing argument made that for maximum benefit from a liner, it should be used *outside* the bag, not inside it. Counter-intuitive I know, but the explanation made a lot of sense.
Some people do tend to fixate on 'getting your body warmth into the loft of the down' without barriers in between. Presumably they sleep butt naked it their bags, and get dressed again every time they need to pee.😅
Strange, but okey 😄
To do a true comparison you’ll need to spend a weekend when the temp stays the same all weekend. Eat and drink the same everyday. Chances are a few years ago you were lighter in stature too. My wife bought me this reactor bag and I’ve never used it. At best I’d assume it just keeps my bag clean
Yeah, probably you right.
I don't agree with your conclusion or the theory about bag suitability. The reason is that insulation can be expressed as an R value regardless of the type or purpose of the insulation, as long as the molecular phase & structure of the insulation material is unchanged & it's insulation properties remain unaffected by condensation etc. Basically R value is a measure of the rate that thermal energy is lost through a material. If there is a fixed heat source enclosed by insulation of a known surface area, then no matter how what the outside temperature, the inside temperature will remain the same fixed number of degrees above the outside temperature. This means that if your bag alone can keep you comfortable down to 11 C, then adding the +15C liner should enable you to have comfortable sleep down to -6 C. The comments I have heard from other hikers commonly suggest that the ratings on these liners are simply unrealistic. I do have a lighter weight reactor liner than that one. I'd say it does make a difference, but not nearly as much as is claimed. However, another point to consider is that your body does not necessarily produced a constant fixed heat output. Most hikers fuel up on carbohydrates, these cannot be absorbed through the gut wall in that form as the carbohydrate molecule is too large. Digestion breaks it down into sugar for absorption into the blood stream. This causes an insulation response to control the blood sugar spike, so the body works very hard to convert the excess into fat and store that away in fat cells. The upshot of this is that you will at some point during the night have an energy deficit & be unable to generate the heat you had earlier, unless you eat again. The only other source of energy for people is fats. The traditional source of energy for hunting peoples such as the native North Americans was animal fat. What they did was make and store pemmican. This can be stored a long time & is what got them through the severe winters as well as fueling their endurance hunting (running prey into heat exhaustion). Pemmican is made by drying lean muscle meat, crushing it into a powder & then mixing this with an equal weight of animal fat (Tallow or Dripping), then letting that solidify into convenient serving sizes. Sometimes that would add herbs & berries for taste. Some people on keto and carnivore make their own Pemmican. I am older and can no longer tolerate carbohydrate as it is the primary cause of inflammatory diseases & associated pain. If fact I nearly died & in desperation went on an elimination diet which identified all forms of carbohydrate as the cause of inflammation. So I modified my diet accordingly & only then discovered it is called a keto diet. These days, I am active again & completely inflammation & pain free with no regular drugs at all despite have been constantly dependent on them for decades, just to remain barely functional at work. So, this is a bit of a revelation that flies in the face of the standard dietary advise us boomers grew up with. Anyway, the point of this in terms of temperature at night is that fueling with fat rather than carbs provides a significantly more sustained and stable energy release over longer periods of time, such as through a long dark winter night. You may well find this more useful for getting through a cold night with minimal gear. Certainly it seems to work that way for me. If I get cold, I take that as a sign I need more energy & for that reason, my pemmican stash is close to hand.
I mostly use cotton liners as I use an army 2 bag modular system that seems fine at -20.C but been thinking about a fleece or better liner. If it’s really cold I triple bag.
I have the liner. Once you wash it 2-3 times the insulation become worthless you can see through it. But yes it will protect the inside of your sleeping bag.
In za morning. Za za za za😂
Kind of missed the moment, where and when I told that?😅
You could see straight away you were going to freeze .that sleeping bag would be ok at a slumber party
Yeah, right? 😃
Contrary to popular belief and marketing sleeping bag liners are there to protect the inside liner of your bag, particularly if it’s a down bag. Simon
Probably you right. Marketing and a lot of ads are doing it work.
That liner maybe gives additional 5 degrees .. not fifteen.
Well, we will never know, because it's impossible to measure. These are all lies of marketing teams.
I have that liner! I think 15C might be a little optimistic what it does, but I wore it when the temperatures got down below the 5C comfort rating of my down bag in my recent video...and I was too hot! I had to take off the liner and my base layers in the middle of the night.
It also depends on your sleeping mattress rating - mine is R4. I suspect you can maybe get away with a liner and a 3 season bag with a warmer pad, but not tried that out yet. I now have a R 5.8 pad so will do so in future.
Liner promised 15°F (9°C), did it deliver? Obviously not. For the same 342g, Cumulus has a sleeping bag comfort-rated to 4°C - or it will add 24°C to your existing bag. Liners almost never make sense. Even if one seeks to justify a liner on the basis of protecting the sleeping bag from hiker-grime, then get the lightest-weight liner, But don't count on liners for thermal advantage, because they are never worth their weight.
🙂
What about a silk liner, cheaper and lighter.
Yes, maybe that is also a good option.
But in my country it was expensive at that time
reactor is 3 season, premium of winter or this bag
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Ha haaa all this + degrees quoted by manufacturers are wrong. Liner is essential to keep the bag clean and dry but add much less warmth than expected. I have a bag with almost identical temp guidance and I've slept in same temps as your test, I had to wear all my clothes. I can say your test is 100% accurate. I now use a thin silk liner as it is lighter and protects the bag the same. For extra use a warmth a warmer bag!!! (Or a cheap thin second bag as outer). Another trick is add a zip to bottom of your jacket and cut a cheap sleeping bag to be waist height only and add the other half of the zip to that so it zips to bottom of jacket and use that inside sleeping bag
Sometimes we all fall into the lies of marketing teams...
Which thermometer are you using?
The most simplest as possible 😄
From Decathlon - 50 MULTI-PURPOSE WHISTLE AND ORIENTEERING COMPASS
Without counting money, only weight: a better investment for comfort at night is a regular sleeping bag from cumulus with 400gr.of weight. It is not that much bigger of package. For better hygienic use a silk inliner. Just my 2 Cents
I meeean, not everybody have that amount of money to spend just on sleeping bags. All countries are different in that term. So sometimes we buy what we can afford, and we trust it will be a good solution.
Nice test, and good points in the comments. BTW, you probably want to replace this Baofeng with something more durable and waterproof, like yaesu VX series (VX-8dr with gps and aprs) or Icom IC-T10
You can buy fleece liners for a fraction the cost.
Probably yes, but they aren't always available at your location 😉
Those liners will add about 5 C. Your bag rating (if it's even accurate) was 7 C for the limit. If it was 0 C when you started, it was already too cold for the liner to make up the difference. The combined bag and liner would have been comfortable at 6 C.
The "extreme" rating means you'll survive but be miserable at minus 5. That's a summer bag if it's comfort rated to 11 C.
Yeah, most definitely.
Never go to bed with all of your layering.
add a layer later if you feel cold.
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Btw, you are so beginner to talk about gear or doing review. You will understand it a couple of years later.
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The extreme rating is survival limit only. Best to assess against the limit rating.
Yeah, most definitely
🎉❤🎉 thanks
You’re welcome 😊
I didn't see a mention of a sleeping pad R value, which is CRUCIAL in cold weather. A plain air one is for cushioning only. Proper insulation below is necessary. I have that liner and it does add warmth containment, but it is only a part of your system. That bag, as you know, was not sufficient, and neither was the pad I suspect. Without the liner, you would likely have been considerably less comfortble. You need to prepare for temperatures below what a forecast is to be safe. Weather reports are wrong often enough.
Yeah, pad was totally faulty in that moment.
399 grams for a liner?!?! I would just take my 450 gram enlightened equipment 40 degree quilt to “line” my mummy bag with! That thing works!!
Well, I'm sure you can. But let not forget, that not everybody possess same amount of money you have 😏
So, you sleep in the same clothes as you've been wearing during the day? No wonder you are cold!
Yeah, maybe that.
You can sew a wool bag liner by sourcing cheap blankets very easy and would be far more effective
Were you on an insulated sleeping pad?
Definitely not, but I fixed that issue, this winter season was spent only on insulated one 🙃
this is exceptionally flawed. So you have -2°C temp outside and bag rated with 11/7/-5. Lets start with bag, I really liked this explanation of these values. comfort(11): this is the least temp, where average (sporty, not shoppaholic)female will sleep good. Limit(7): the least temp where 20y old male will be ok with some shivering and generally not a good sleep. extreme(-5): you will survive, but might not be the same person as you were yesterday (i.e. cut of fingers/limbs etc.). So taking this bag close to it's extreme values was not a good idea. BUT if liner actually adds 15°C, then, -2 + 15 = 13°C right?, you being man should have had a very good sleep. You was miserable? What does it mean? The liner does NOT work anywhere near the claimed values, and is NOT a good investment. Yes, your bag was unfit for temperature, and shall be replaced, if you want to sleep in such temps, but I'd say the liner can do 3-5°C difference. Did the liner work a little for you? Yes, without it you would be far worse, but you really should not be equipping yourself for dire survival ~ Liner is not pointless, I woulnd't toss it, as it protects your bag from dirty clothing and protects it, but for this money I'd rather buy trousers/jacket to sleep in, which you can use through day as well. ~ btw. keep 'buffer' in your sleeping bag capabilities, aim for comfort. You might get injured, sick, very tired, weather might change a lot. If you already planning survival in your ideal/expected scenario, when things go bad ... Aim for comfort instead, even if things go unpredictably wrong, you still have chance
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Sleeping pad is crucial for 😴 instead of wearing your clothing, put it under you. The cold from the ground is absolutely horrible.
Yeah, already changed my pad. Now it's different game.
No
Hmm...
YES.
Promo>SM 😇
Just out of curiosity, what does SM mean?