But I do. I can deal with a bad upper, handle fit issues with work arounds… but if the midsole isn’t good, it’s not worth it at all. The midsole is very good here… so it’s worth it.
@@SagasuRunning Yes some fit issues or upper if not a dud they can be worked with, on most non track spikes/cross county spike/shoe I need to by hand tapper the heel cup area to have shoes fit my narrow heel, as the rest of my foot is normal width, just the back heel bone is the issue.
The ride improved for me after 100km - I've put almost 200km on my pair. Performed well at sub-4min/km paces for 400 repeats and even holding 4min/km paces for 1-2km intervals. It's definitely a shoe that rewards you for increasing your cadence rather than bounding style of running. I think you'd have a more enjoyable experience if you were more open minded to other brands. Nike has its merits but a lot of other brands are closing the gap or have surpassed Nike in certain categories. As consumers we have the luxury of trying so many brands so why limit ourselves. It's interesting out of all the YT channels you're the only one that thinks the Peg Plus is faster than the plated trainer. I also have the Peg Plus and think it's definitely an upgrade on the regular Peg but doesn't really have that speed for workouts - less speed than the ES4. The ZoomX in the Peg Plus is definitely not the same composition in the VF3 or AF3.
Interesting. Our experience is totally opposite. I found I preferred the shoe when it was fresher, the first 50-75k were my favorite in it. At 160k it's still great, but I liked the little extra firmness in the foam when new. I'm a cadence runner and when I get into my 400 pace the speedroll totally gets in the way for me. I feel like I'm tripping through the rep. Anything under 4:00/km pace and I get that tripping feeling, sub 3:30/km pace and approach 3:00/km pace I can barely run in them. This is where the peg Plus shines for me, in both the foam and geometry. For speed work I really prefer a traditional geometry as I don't want the shoe "helping" me, I want to control it and do the work. I have plenty of data showing the Peg Plus is a faster workout shoe for me than most plated shoes, outside of spikes. Now, when the reps get longer, like into 800s or 1k reps, the Peg Plus equals out and a VF3 is now faster, but not by a huge amount. The ES4 can't hang here due to the foam, but the EP4 certainly can. Again, I have a data video that covers all of this in detail. The Peg Plus has been a revelation for me this year. Then again, I did a lot of the work in the Streakfly for a long time...the peg Plus is just abetter trainer.
Good to hear you'll be covering a bit more Saucony, if only to see how they compare against Nike and Adidas. I'm curious to see what you make of trainers like the Ride and Triumph, though the latter has seemingly morphed into more of a slow, max-cushioned, daily trainer with the 22.
I’ll be covering the Ride 18. I was excited about the T22 earlier this year (from TRE23) until I tried it on and it was an instant nope from me. Likely next year I’ll be covering the Ride 18, Elite 2, Speed 5 and Pro 5 (hearing mixed things if we will see and ES5 and EP5 next year though, maybe not until 2026).
Thanks for the update! I've been using the ES4 (probably around 200 miles maybe) and more recently the EP4 (75 miles) and found that the S4 was fine for runs up to HM but beyond that, they became far less pleasant - quite harsh. On the other hand, the P4 was more comfortable on foot initially, and seems to remain that way. Got to say I've struggled a bit with getting the lacing of the P4 right though! Interesting comments about the quality of the shoes. Obviously you've got a far wider experience with the brand than me however I use a couple of Saucony trail shoes (Endorphin Rift & Xodus Ultra) and for me the build quality is pretty good - something I'm not so sure about with the ES4 & EP4. Anyway ... I look forward to seeing / listening to your videos - keep them coming! PS. am taking the new Metaspeed Skys for a long run on Saturday - I want to see how they might feel in a race day event 😊. BW
I definitely agree the EP4 is the better option for longer, 20k was about my limit with the ES4 too…. But the EP4 comes into its own then. I’m curious how you’ll get on with the Metaspeed. Prepare for instability… but lots of speed.
Very interesting to see your take on the ES4, that I see so much hype about, but also hear very few reviewers talk overly positive about. So Its great to hear your honest opinions on what are the downsides of the ES4. From my point of view, I've now logged 50k in my Peg Plus, and I'm absolutely over the moon about how good they are. I was so much in doubt about buying them, because a lot of people say they are too thin and soft. But after hearing your review on the shoe, I went for it. And now it's my absolute favourite shoe! Even thinking of buying another pair, and I've never done that with other shoes. Just recived a pair of AF3's, so lets see they will make me even more excited. Again, thanks again for great content! 🙏
The ES4 is a shoe that just works, even with its issues. I think the hype is a bit muted for them this year as the Endorphin line is maturing into a line with smaller iterative improvements and less big “innovations” (like it seems that people only are interested in). The Novablast has fallen into the same category now. Great shoes… but less hype…. But still great shoes. The Peg Plus is a special one. It’s a workout shoe for me, almost completely, and everytime I’m in it I’m excited…. a really outstanding shoe. I’m glad you are enjoying them too. I’m sure I’ll pick up a second pair by the end of the year. Right now I’m going to see how far my first pair get before they change in feel. 120k in thus far and no problems… plenty more to go.
Yeah, big innovation definitely is needed to get headlines today. But good points on that topic also. 👍 Glad to hear you feel the same way about the Peg Plus 🤙 Thanks for info on the durability. Will be interesting to see if my hype about them lasts in the long term 😄🙏👟
I'm not much of a coffee drinker. If someone asks me if I detect notes of Gummi bears and pomegranate, I would say that I detect notes of coffee. My point is that I'm not refined enough to detect whether the shoe's upper is better or worse than that of another shoe. I'm a midsole person. Despite your initial impression of the Endo S4 upper, I picked up a pair to replace my Endo S3. I don't have enough miles on it to comment about the upper. But my first few miles were fine. I'm relieved that you're warning up to the S4.
I agree with you that the shoe is extremely versatile. Pity about the poor quality of the upper although the midsole makes up for it and leaves the legs feeling good after workouts. Going to be interesting to see how the Adidas EVO SL compares.
Actually, I agree. I think the Evo SL, even more than the B12, could be the shoe that compares the most to the ES4/5. I find it interesting that non-plated performance trainers are pushing into this conversation. We shall see in 2025. I will definitely be doing those "vs" videos.
@@SagasuRunning Just seen a leaked image of the Saucony Endorphin Speed 5 and the upper resembles the Pro 4, so it's looking promising. What a great time to be a runner with all the innovation in shoe technology.
@@icejam-xq5hj Yup, there are a few other images out there that show it better. Sadly the shoe seems to have gained more stack height… so we shall see.
My marathon time 4:30:00 do you recommend ES4? I won raffle few weeks ago and I just pick up the shoes this evening. I am done with Carbon Plated shoes. Still undecided to run with OnCloud Eclipse this time. Or will try Alphafly 2 again on the last 10 miles this weekend before NYC Marathon. Heal strikers here. Thank you. I always like your video ✌️
I'd seriously take a look at the Endorphin Pro 4 if I were you. Use the ES4 for tempo work, throw in a Triumph 22 for daily running (or the On) and race in the EP4. As a heel striker I honestly couldn't think of a better rotation. The ES4 will do fine for a 4:30 marathon, or faster. The issue will be in that final 10k, when you NEED to support and help fo the shoe the ES4 will be a bit of a let down. The EP4 has a secondary foam in it (PWRRUN HG) that gives it a little more performance and the CF plate in that shoe will keep you rolling forward (Speedroll is the same in both shoes).
I'd seriously look at the ES4 + EP4 combo for that. Add in a Ride 17 as a daily trainer and you have all you need for training and racing. The EP4 is a great first super shoe and race shoe that you'll appreciate for a sub 4 time.
@@SagasuRunning I have the speed 4 and raced 10k in them last week, it’s a great trainer but needed a little more pop, have alphafly 3’s but I don’t feel I warrant them yet as I’m not quick enough was a impulse by when I booked the marathon 🤦🏻 thanks for the advice I will look at the P4’s and probably pick a pair up. Thank you again. Ps the shoe dog recommendation was spot on, great book and history lesson! 👌🏼
@LND_Ben Ya, the EP4 is the bridge you are looking for. “More” shoe than the ES4 yet still familiar and not as extreme as the AF3… though it will help you get ready to run more in that shoe over time. I’m glad Shoe Dog was enjoyable. The first time through that story it’s a rollercoaster for sure. 👍🏻
Oddly, my upper opinions are almost completely different from yours. The speed 4 is one of the best fits I’ve ever found, but probably because my feet are super narrow. I think generally, a lot(but not all) of saucony shoes tend to be quite narrow
My feet are neither narrow nor wide, just normal, but I do have high arches and a high volume foot, which is part of the issue here. But only part, as I run in many narrow shoes, Nike, Nnormal and even Salomon...and have never had issues. Like I said in the video, the upper "works", it's just vague fitting, sloppy materials and overall could be so much better. The good thing is once I get the shoes on my feet and don't have to look at them, I forget about the issues and just enjoy that great midsole.
Curious if the fact you wash your shoes so much might be contributing to the dye bleed? I haven't experienced this...but my shoes only get washed in the rain! LMAO I loved my Endo Speed V1, V3 gave me heel lift issues but I still liked the shoe...but I had to limited when/where/how I used it. I was gifted a pair of Endo Pro V3 to the person I gifted my Boston 12's to, and I don't have the heel lift issues in the pro...and my theory is it's due to the lack of a rigid heel counter so lace lockdown better allows the heel cup to conform to my foot. I've since moved into the ASICS space (NB3/SB2), since their heel design works perfectly for me, and as good as Nike racer heels. And while I won't say I will never try a Saucony again, I don't feel the need since the shoe market in general is so balanced across the different companies now. It's a wonderful time to be a runner!
Even if it’s due to washing (which I doubt) it’s still unacceptable. This isn’t the first Saucony I’ve had this color bleed issue with. 10+ years ago my original Kinvaras also had the issue (and I never washed them). I enjoy Saucony’s midsoles and the brand will be on the periphery of my focus, but I am paying attention now.
I've got a bit over 200 miles in mine and to be honest it's a very mehh shoe and I would not recommend it at full price. I use it mostly for Tempo and speed, as I don't really like it on slower paces because the geometry really benefits from faster speeds and my hell rubs a bit(only shoe this has ever happened, not an issue with any of the previous 3). However, I find that the Boston 12 performs just as well and it's way cheaper with better grip. The midsole it better in the Saucony though, and it definitely got better over time. I estimate that it will be great for a good 400 +miles, but so does the Boston 12 which is cheaper. Also hard agree on the smell, I thought I was crazy but you are 100% on point.
The B12 is definitely a better shoe for longer more focused efforts with pace, LSP is hard to beat for that. I said as much in my comparison of the two. Then again, I see the B12 and SB2 as interchangeable, it just comes down to if you and a plate/stiffening agent or not. Speedroll gets in the way for anything approaching 5k pace for me, however I also dislike rockered shoes the fast I run...so thats more me.
I got the Pro 4s and the Speed 4s. I really enjoy both of them. Only issue I have with the Speed 4s is that after about 10 miles my forefoot starts to hurt. I don't know how anybody could run a marathon in them, a half marathon would be pushing it. I'm not even a heavy runner. Does anyone else have this issue?
@@SagasuRunning Hmmm, I took it on a 15 mile with 11 tempo and by mile 13 my feet were hurting bad. Could be because I'm running everything else in 38 mm or more stack 😂
Another interesting video, thanks! What I’ve found is my carbon plated shoes (VF2, Sky Paris) only really kick in at sub 4min/km and above 5min/km are just unpleasant. Ran half marathon recently at even 4:05/km in Sky Paris. Found too slow a pace for getting the real benefit from them and was wondering if something like Endorphin Speed might be a better alternative?
I would agree with this, but specially for the Metaspeeds. Once you get under 4:00/km pace they come alive. Above that they are a bit rough. The Vaporfly and Alphafly are a bit better, due to the flexibility in the plate. But also come alive at the above pace.
@@SagasuRunning thanks for the reply. Seems something that is missing from a lot of reviews is at what pace the different carbon racers really work. 4:05/km was ok with Sky P but nothing like it is at 3:35/km. Unfortunately don’t like how the VF2 makes me land (did a 10k race in them once, couldn’t wait to take them off!). That’s why I thought maybe the endorphin speed 4 might be a good choice 🤔
The EP4 is a very good super shoe. I’m a big fan of it. It has a larger sweet spot than a Metaspeed and can handle a broader range of paces. It’s not as outright fast as a Metaspeed, but it’s not far off.
. . .now I'm sniffing my Saucony shoes and comparing them to my Pumas and Hokas. For me, the Hoka Mach 6 has been the "do it all" competition for the Endorphin 4.
@@SagasuRunning They feel to me like shoes that come to similar results in very different ways. The HM6 feels light and bouncy, and I feel like it takes less effort than normal to run a given pace. The ES4 feels aggressive, and it feels like the effort level that I would associate with a given pace has me moving 15 to 20 seconds per km faster. I recognise that those two descriptions probably sound similar regarding pace, but I'm unsure about how else to put it. 😅
The M6 did feel light and bouncy…. And stiffer than the ES4 with a more pronounced rocker. The ES4’s speedroll is more effective but less pronounced. The M6 had a similar roll off the toe to the old Epic Reacts from years ago…
You should try the Nike Rival Fly 4, a nylon plate old school A2 running shoes. Unfo is not avaiable in Europe, but i think is a valid alternative to speed 4
Funny you should say this... it's this Sunday's video. Not quite an ES4 alt...but something else all together different...something much better. Stay tuned. 🙌🏻
TRE24 is next month (the year was never shorter), and we'll get to learn whether there will be ES5/EP5 as '25 release models, but also, if the rumors on Endorphin Trainer (yes, that's how it's gonna be called) are true. Asics and Mizuno are also the one to watch.
I've seen quite a bit of the Saucony 2025 lineup and strategy, though it seemed incomplete when it was shared with me (some missing shoes). So yes, I'm looking forward to seeing it all in the TRE24 coverage. I'm not expecting massive changes from Asics in 2025, more of the same with foam tweaks...and I've not been able (or wanted too) wrap my head around Mizuno as of yet, so I'll just watch that one from the sidelines. I'm looking forward to seeing some of Adidas's surprises, Brooks plans on moving the line towards the Glycerine Max and if New Balance is making any course corrections (not holding my breath though).
The same thing has happened to me with the hoka skyward X inside it has a red side support and this color has dyed the entire white side outside of the shoe leaving a horrible mark and the price is higher than the speed 4, from hoka I did not expect to find that detail I know it is aesthetic and does not affect the use of the shoe but for what you pay you deserve a better quality in the materials
Interesting. I've had many Hokas over the years and never experienced that, even in NYC salty/chemically sidewalk snow/slush. I wonder what Hoka changed in production for the Skyward X...
I owned the speed 2. Probably - for me - the best shoe that I have ever own. I used it for racing and speed training for around 1-2 years. Very fast, very nimble. I did mostly 10k and a couple of semi. That plate worked really well for me because I did not have the technique (and I still do not :)) ) to properly use a plated shoe. Worked very well at 4:30-5:20 min / km. Anything slower and it became painfull to run in. As of the 4, I tried it on in a shoe store in Portugal. Unfortunately those "geniuses" from Saucony do not have a local store in Romania where I can try it. For me, the Nike Plus shoe will not replace (ever) the Speed as I can use that nylon plate. As usual, I want Saucony (and Puma) in Romania. I have plenty of Nike and Hoka and Asics :).
Saucony also has no real retail presence here in Taiwan. I know of one running store I can find them, eventually. So I’ll look in the US too. I wasn’t a fan of the ES1 or 2…. The 1 was just meh to me. Then again, I’m a very different runner now.
@@SagasuRunning that part with "a trully different runner" is valid for me also. Come to think of it, that Speed 2 helped me move from heel strike to mid/forefoot. It also made me more of a stride than a cadence runner - even if I do not particilarly have the muscles for it. My form not being good, I somehow got the hang of using that plate. Made me more efficient because it moved me further with less effort at my "fast" paces. Fast = 5.10 / km. My stride increases to 1.10+ (from less than 1m). Cadence stayed almost the same. HR was better as beats/avg pace. Not a Saucony fan boy and for sure not everyone's story. But I was quite happy with the brand and I will probably buy again if I can put them on foot before purchase. I hate returns.
As for fit, it always depends on the form of the foot. I personally have US12, but relatively narrow. Hokas, NB are all too wide. Saucony do fit well for me. I wonder that ES4 (this price catecory) have the poor upper (mesh). I did not try ES4. But Saucony has cheaper shoes with really great upper quality. Triumph, Tempus or even Ride. Rides are double layed and are great for colder times, but not for temperatures over 23-24 C. Adidas Adizeros, for example, are not for longer easy runs at temperatures below 10 C
I don't find the last of the ES4 overly narrow, and the EP4 is what I'd consider wide (for super shoe)...it's more the geometry of the toe box that is the issue. As for Adidas uppers...It's a good thing I mostly run in temps over 30c, rarely under 20c and almost never under 10c.
Glad to see this comes back in your review. When I first have it, i was estatic but more and more I tried and having Boston by my side, i cant help it but to sideline ESP for most of my run. I previously use ESP for only easy miles but the heel of this shoe always get in the way and yes the smell is something I am irritated with aswell. Then this shoe sort of sitting in the box and I decided to sell it. I am now looking to buy the ever grown popularity of max stack max cush shoe and was in the market of looking one. Any chance you would do a video on this topic and some of the brand you think are doing it right. I dont particularly like it but just because I have all of the other line up, I would like to give this segment a try, trying to find something without plate in it. Been looking at brand like : 1.brooks glycerin max 2.puma mag max 3.asic glideride 4.asic superblast (tho not too keen on this much as I tried them but didn't feel in love as much) 5.Hoka Skyward x (not keen on having plate) 6.NB More V5 (feels its too squishy)
Doing Max cushion right? Well, thats not really my thing...but I will say that I think Brooks may be the one to watch in the Max stack/cushioned space as they seem to be going all in on it across the lineup. The Glycerin Max is only a start but shoes a lot of where they are headed.
@@SagasuRunning Thanks!! Yeah Max Cush wasn't really my thing too, i guess i dont have a thing to begin with but coming from football, never had experience with running in max stack too, but i had a complete 4 rotation. daily, threshold/tempo, short speed and long speed , i think since all brand are kinda have their plateless max stack lineup, i guess i could give that a try. Surprised me too, never thought Brooks would be so popular until recently all pop up me feed. Seems like other brand than the usual nike adidas are taking their notes well too. But im curious to know, like when you mentioned Max Cush is not really your thing, may I know the exact reason? I guess i kinda interested in understanding from more experience person in runnning of their perspective on Max Cush, are those type of shoes gonna make our feet like become not strong enough or like draw backs to it, if you could have like a philosophical discussion of why thats nof your thing, could be interesting topic too. Thanks!
@subhi2698 If you’ve ever experienced a max cushion shoe, it’s definitely worth trying. That being said it’s a big change so go slow with them. Of all the recent max stack shoes the Brooks Glycerin Max is the most interesting, building on the properties of why a max stack shoe exists…. Don’t expect it to go fast or super super soft…. But expect roll and comfort.
I have vaporfly 2's but I always wondered which supershoe is the best for very short distances. We have a yearly running competition at the university where we have to run multiple 500m in 24h on a concrete street and I can't decide which one is the best to buy. I really like them, but I just find the vaporfly 2's extremely stiff and don't know what to think of it. I had the Nike tempo's before which obviously has the airpods and I don't know, it felt like they gave me that extra 'bounce' to keep going very hard the last 150m. I keep hearing stiffer supershoes (without airpods) are better for the short distances though. Can you give me your opinion? Great videos btw!
Interesting challenge/race. 500s over and over for 24h. Honestly, if I had to do that I’d likely opt for Vaporfly 3s. My second choice would be the Nike Pegasus Plus and my final choice would be probably the Adidas Takumi Sen 10. Over 24hrs I’d like rotate all three. Stiffer isn’t always better for short distances. It really depends. I do a lot of 200s and 400s in non plated shoes (Peg Plus) but put on plated track spikes of VF3s for the reps that count. My advice is to train in both.
for context: the fastest I did the 500m in was with the nike tempo's in a time of 1min12s two years ago. In the vaporfly's I did a 1:14 last year but just some weeks after a big injury. Just so curious which shoe would help me the best to get under that 1:12.
@@SagasuRunning Well yeah it's more like an estafette run where all the different faculties of the university compete. Every 500m a new runner from each faculty has to run for its faculty. The faculty with the most amount of laps in 24h wins. So I do like 8 to 10 500's in 24h which means I have quite some time to recover in between. It's a weird, crazy (but very competitive) event, I know :'). Anyways I guess I'll use the VF2s (for the agressiveness compared to the VF3s) again in 2 weeks without rotation with another supershoe like the Takumi Sen 10 since it would cost a lot of money again. I'm just a student ;p. Hopefully I do better than last year. Thanks for your clear answer, definitely helped me!
I haven’t noticed that smell at all…I do believe that this shoe is best for light narrowed foot runners. I find it great for T-Pace and faster runs. Anything bellow T-Pace feels clunky or boring. E-Runs are better ran on normal daily trainers with cushy/bouncy foams. I’m very happy with my pair 👌🏽👍🏼
T/E runs... you are going my Daniels, right? If so, I agree. Faster than T pace the ES4 gets very clunky fast and it will do E pace well, but I'd always want to do that in a non-plated daily trainer. I don't see the Saucony fit as being overly narrow, I don't have a wide foot and don't really have issue with narrow shoes. it's more the angles of the forefoot toe area, it's jsut oddly done.
@@SagasuRunning Precisely going by Daniels! I agree with you too. I wouldn’t want to do easy runs with them anyways. I tend to gravitate towards my novablast 4s for that. I see what you mean with the toe-box shape, but thats the best part about having options. You get to choose what best works for you! Thanks for the review!
@@franciscoguerrero4246 Totally agree on options. Funny, I get a similar lateral toe swope on the NB4. It only bothers me on runs around or over 20k in them though. Under that I never notice it.
Interesting 🤔 I haven’t experienced any rubbing of the sort on any of the two shoes. However, I do wish the NB4 had a gusset, the tongue bunches up EVERY darn time I put them on, no matter how tight I tie them down. The Speed 4s only gripe would be the laces…I’ll sometimes tie them down nice and secure, and they will stretch with time. Which is great as the foot swells during exercise, but not so great when it just makes the forefoot a tad too loose, causing some heat to build up at the bottom of said forefoot.
Do you think is a good shoes for make a marathon under -3h for a runner with 55 kilos ? on wet or damp ground I find that the grip is less good than the adidas adizero and the continental sole. Thank for the reply.
For a racing option from Saucony look at the Endorphin Pro 4 instead. The carbon plate and the secondary foam under the foot will be much appreciated in a sub 3 marathon. I have alot of content on the shoe and even an comparison.
I can't remember the last time I had heel issues in a shoe, either lift or discomfort (beyond achilles rubbing/blisters) but can definitely see where Saucony's designs could cause issue. Especially in the ES4 as it's oddly straight and rigid in a surprising way with very little heel pocket.
The original Endorphin series was the Kinivra in the 2000's to 2010's sometime and they were the predecessor to the Super shoe only they lacked stability similar to the old Lunarlon Racer another higher then racing flat shoe that was more like a conventional and older Kinivara before the pro/regular split had no rubber in the heel after X model where some people were using shoe goo on heel area of the pairs they used for regular trainer not pair they used to race in. I remember people getting injured in Socony back when the brand only had minimal drop in the two main models in the Kinevra single model and the Ride in both a trail and regular/Sense Ride trying to force Sense version of the Ride to be another model as this was all they had besides a racing flat that was same model last but changing names all the time as well as very different uppers each year. This was when Socony was losing all its runner fan base to Brooks becuse of how popular the shoes were to have a low drop back in 2013--2014 when most brands lines moved to a low drop around 5 MM and often less cushioning besides a few Nike models and all of the Brooks, back when Minimal was near its peak just before the Vibram Five Fingers lawsuit for several reasons dismissing one of the reasons as people were stupid but the rest staying toe issues of not fitting those injuries.
I ran extensively in Kinvaras from 2010 until about 2015 (Kinvara 1-6) as I was heavily involved in barefoot running back then and the Kinvaras were the first "normal" shoe that was minimal (not barefoot) and a good bridge in between standard shoes and barefoot shoes. You are right, Brooks also had a few models that were low drop and more minimal back them. None of them were very good though as they all has odd forefoot rockers and geometry. The Nike Free, predated the Kinvaras by about 6 years though...but were never built like a proper trainer, which is what the Kinvara brought to the table. I definitely wouldn't consider the Kinvaras the first super shoes, not even close, nor would i say they had much influence on them at all. The Kinvara showed the running shoe industry that you could build a good standrard trainer, without all the overlays, midsole posts and unnecessary weight running shoes had at the time. The Kinvaras didn't start more minimal performance oriented shoes, but the created a mold for the industry to follow for a few years.
@@SagasuRunning also the New Balance brand had a cross country model that was beefier than a normal XC model Anthony Keupeka wore in 2010 for the Silverton 100 he taped his entire training for that he won before then getting sponsored by NB to help be a tester and more on developing the New Balance Minimus line. ASICS also had the DS trainer in the 2000's that was a tempo training model like the modern fast trainers some people use now, keep in mind that the 2000's was when running shoes were at the most cushioned besides a few modern brands/models like all of Hoka or some Ultra models of trail running shoes.
@@caseysmith544 Anton Krupicka…. And you are referring the NB’s “minimus” line of shoe, of which Anton was the face of for many years….. also that was the Leadville 100. The Minimis weren’t XC models…. There were minimalist trainers, there was a road and trial variant.
@@SagasuRunning Right I could not remember, the exact race but Anton ran in beefier XC non spike models from New Balance before he was ever sponsored by NB because the Cross Country models were beefier then the standard XC Models and he wanted a minimal shoe having read Born to Run as soon as it came out in 2009. This was PRIOR TO EVER BEING SPONSORED BY ANYONE but he got 1/2 size larger in New Balance of specific XC shoe so Anton could and did add some type of slightly cushioned insert like the Dr Sholl's all foam work model as he found the beefier XC shoe did not have the best midsole for running on top of rocks.
Don't get me wrong but for 200€ I don't want fit and upper issues nor bad quality control. It's a hefty price and the entire shoe should be top notch not only one part of it.
No… BUT… it makes a good plated tempo trainer paired with the VF due to the flexibility in the plate. You learn how to engage that flexibility. However, the ride is much different due to the foams.
I have it, I love it, but I'm embarrassed how ugly it is. I can only wear saucony in the cover of darkness. However, the Peregrine is the best shoe ever made for offroad and winter running!!
Ha, you know....I have to admit I'm the same. I run often on some river bike/running paths, which can be crowded on weekends and holidays. I wouldn't be caught dead in the ES4, especially this colorway, on those days. But on a cool and rainy Tuesday... sure. 🤣
Mindful that shoe is more than 20% more expensive than the Novablast 4 & New Balance FuelCell Rebel V4 - fair to say at $170 it's overpriced? I'm failing to see where that shoe raises the bar above the aforementioned shoes. You did not say that shoe is making it's way to your little running closet, when the $140 NovaBlast 4 is there - say no more, those lines are easy to read between.
Well, neither shoe is "in" my little running closet and I don't see them as competing with one another. The NB4 is a cushioned daily trainer and since Asics doesn't really make a good tempo trainer anymore (solid no to the MS4 and the HS4 is a bit minimal for some needs) I would pair the ES4 with the NB4 as a tempo trainer for a marathon build, especially so If I was going to race in a Metaspeed or EP4. The shoe that is in my little running closet is the Peg Plus... I also rarely look at price and it's a non issue for me. Performance is what matter. Splitting hairs over $10-30 USD is nonsensical to me.
@@SagasuRunning ...if you're going to say that, it cuts both ways and $20 more than that Endo Speed 4 is the Hoka Mach X 2, $30 more is the Glycerin Max and I'm hard pressed to believe that Endo Speed 4 can 'perform' like those 2 shoes, no? It's very easy to go down the 'price creep' rabbit hole and before you know it you're spending 50% more than the NovaBlast 4 - just sayin.
@@therapygrind Sure… but both the shoes you mentioned are totally different classes of shoes. More is certainly not better here. I realize price is relative and personal… but again, I never look at price as a deciding factor on the performance of the shoe.
For me the Speed 4 is totally different than the Nova Blast 4. The Sp4 is more nimble and gets really good turnover. The Nova 4 feels more clunky but gets better bounce and protects my legs over longer miles. I use them for totally different purposes.
@@PatrickStar_24 it is a pretty shoe, but as long as i have these tuition payments for this kids that totally F'ed up my shoe budget, i'm stuck with the no frills Guide 15 & 16 :(
Not just that. The flexibility in the plate is unlike any other. Nike's Carbon plates have flex built into them, something other brands don't do well, but Saucony is on another level with the flexibility int his plate, carbon of nylon, doesn't matter.
@@felixbruno7937 Specifically I think the geometry in the v4 is much better, much more in line what what Saucony is doing with their technology. The tweaks to PWRRUN PB over the years have also made the foam better as a training foam. The flexibility and stability of the shoe so much better as well. I don’t know…. What makes the v1 and v2 better for you?
@@SagasuRunning Personally, v4 is better on the stability aspect. Now, as far as the comfort and performance of the shoe, it makes hold a steady pace. I wouldn’t say these shoes are daily trainers. But you can use them for that purpose. In all in, I have to say they’re better because, the construct of v4 is a completely different design. Endorphin pro 4 to me is a beautiful shoe. But the Speed 4 I personally think they could’ve done a bit better. There’s so many shoes in the market now.
@felixbruno7937 I also wouldn’t recommend the ES4 (or any plated shoe) as a daily trainer. I also agree the EP4 is a better designed shoe with better materials. I said as much on both counts in the video. I just never liked the ES1/2…. It was just a boring show to me (compared to the joy of the Vaporfly 4% in that era).
Fully agree. I loath this colorway, but it’s was the only one available here in Taiwan until very recently. The other colorway is a grey/blue that is honestly worst… Saucony color ways are always pretty rough anyway. But this one is awful…
the absolute worst version of the endorphin speed line, they messed up the toe box, cheaped out on the eyelets by reducing them in number and spacing hence making it a loser fit overall. terrible r and d team that took this shoe in the wrong direction. clearly saucony has lost it's vision or is cutting corners to save money. looks like a dying company to be honest.
Interesting comment. You may enjoy my next video on the channel, it’s not about Saucony… but mention the endorphin series in it. You hit the nail on the head as far as the direction here.
![ILLSLICK X YOUNGOHM - We're The same [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yUJNkobYR0E/mqdefault.jpg)
It’s the shoe i used on my very first half marathon and will have a special place in my heart probably forever.
I think alot of people feel that way about the Endorphin Speed, across all 4 generations, everyone has a favorite for a reason.
“Besides the fit, finish, and upper, I really like this shoe” made me giggle
But I do. I can deal with a bad upper, handle fit issues with work arounds… but if the midsole isn’t good, it’s not worth it at all. The midsole is very good here… so it’s worth it.
@@SagasuRunning Yes some fit issues or upper if not a dud they can be worked with, on most non track spikes/cross county spike/shoe I need to by hand tapper the heel cup area to have shoes fit my narrow heel, as the rest of my foot is normal width, just the back heel bone is the issue.
The ride improved for me after 100km - I've put almost 200km on my pair. Performed well at sub-4min/km paces for 400 repeats and even holding 4min/km paces for 1-2km intervals. It's definitely a shoe that rewards you for increasing your cadence rather than bounding style of running. I think you'd have a more enjoyable experience if you were more open minded to other brands. Nike has its merits but a lot of other brands are closing the gap or have surpassed Nike in certain categories. As consumers we have the luxury of trying so many brands so why limit ourselves. It's interesting out of all the YT channels you're the only one that thinks the Peg Plus is faster than the plated trainer. I also have the Peg Plus and think it's definitely an upgrade on the regular Peg but doesn't really have that speed for workouts - less speed than the ES4. The ZoomX in the Peg Plus is definitely not the same composition in the VF3 or AF3.
Interesting. Our experience is totally opposite. I found I preferred the shoe when it was fresher, the first 50-75k were my favorite in it. At 160k it's still great, but I liked the little extra firmness in the foam when new.
I'm a cadence runner and when I get into my 400 pace the speedroll totally gets in the way for me. I feel like I'm tripping through the rep. Anything under 4:00/km pace and I get that tripping feeling, sub 3:30/km pace and approach 3:00/km pace I can barely run in them. This is where the peg Plus shines for me, in both the foam and geometry. For speed work I really prefer a traditional geometry as I don't want the shoe "helping" me, I want to control it and do the work.
I have plenty of data showing the Peg Plus is a faster workout shoe for me than most plated shoes, outside of spikes. Now, when the reps get longer, like into 800s or 1k reps, the Peg Plus equals out and a VF3 is now faster, but not by a huge amount. The ES4 can't hang here due to the foam, but the EP4 certainly can. Again, I have a data video that covers all of this in detail.
The Peg Plus has been a revelation for me this year. Then again, I did a lot of the work in the Streakfly for a long time...the peg Plus is just abetter trainer.
Good to hear you'll be covering a bit more Saucony, if only to see how they compare against Nike and Adidas. I'm curious to see what you make of trainers like the Ride and Triumph, though the latter has seemingly morphed into more of a slow, max-cushioned, daily trainer with the 22.
I’ll be covering the Ride 18. I was excited about the T22 earlier this year (from TRE23) until I tried it on and it was an instant nope from me.
Likely next year I’ll be covering the Ride 18, Elite 2, Speed 5 and Pro 5 (hearing mixed things if we will see and ES5 and EP5 next year though, maybe not until 2026).
Thanks for the update! I've been using the ES4 (probably around 200 miles maybe) and more recently the EP4 (75 miles) and found that the S4 was fine for runs up to HM but beyond that, they became far less pleasant - quite harsh.
On the other hand, the P4 was more comfortable on foot initially, and seems to remain that way.
Got to say I've struggled a bit with getting the lacing of the P4 right though!
Interesting comments about the quality of the shoes. Obviously you've got a far wider experience with the brand than me however I use a couple of Saucony trail shoes (Endorphin Rift & Xodus Ultra) and for me the build quality is pretty good - something I'm not so sure about with the ES4 & EP4.
Anyway ... I look forward to seeing / listening to your videos - keep them coming!
PS. am taking the new Metaspeed Skys for a long run on Saturday - I want to see how they might feel in a race day event 😊. BW
I definitely agree the EP4 is the better option for longer, 20k was about my limit with the ES4 too…. But the EP4 comes into its own then.
I’m curious how you’ll get on with the Metaspeed. Prepare for instability… but lots of speed.
Very interesting to see your take on the ES4, that I see so much hype about, but also hear very few reviewers talk overly positive about. So Its great to hear your honest opinions on what are the downsides of the ES4. From my point of view, I've now logged 50k in my Peg Plus, and I'm absolutely over the moon about how good they are. I was so much in doubt about buying them, because a lot of people say they are too thin and soft. But after hearing your review on the shoe, I went for it. And now it's my absolute favourite shoe! Even thinking of buying another pair, and I've never done that with other shoes. Just recived a pair of AF3's, so lets see they will make me even more excited.
Again, thanks again for great content! 🙏
The ES4 is a shoe that just works, even with its issues. I think the hype is a bit muted for them this year as the Endorphin line is maturing into a line with smaller iterative improvements and less big “innovations” (like it seems that people only are interested in). The Novablast has fallen into the same category now. Great shoes… but less hype…. But still great shoes.
The Peg Plus is a special one. It’s a workout shoe for me, almost completely, and everytime I’m in it I’m excited…. a really outstanding shoe.
I’m glad you are enjoying them too. I’m sure I’ll pick up a second pair by the end of the year. Right now I’m going to see how far my first pair get before they change in feel. 120k in thus far and no problems… plenty more to go.
Yeah, big innovation definitely is needed to get headlines today. But good points on that topic also. 👍
Glad to hear you feel the same way about the Peg Plus 🤙 Thanks for info on the durability. Will be interesting to see if my hype about them lasts in the long term 😄🙏👟
BTW, Endorphin Speed 5 will get the race upper, similar to EP4.
Nice...I'm looking forward to that then.
I love the 3, haven’t gotten to the 4 yet.
I'm glad I waited for the 4s, as I found the 3s WAY too soft when I did try them on.
don't, it is garbage compared to 3 and 2.
I'm not much of a coffee drinker. If someone asks me if I detect notes of Gummi bears and pomegranate, I would say that I detect notes of coffee. My point is that I'm not refined enough to detect whether the shoe's upper is better or worse than that of another shoe. I'm a midsole person. Despite your initial impression of the Endo S4 upper, I picked up a pair to replace my Endo S3. I don't have enough miles on it to comment about the upper. But my first few miles were fine. I'm relieved that you're warning up to the S4.
I’m a big coffee nerd… and I’m now a ES4 fan (if the Peg Plus didn’t exist I’d be in it ALOT more). I’ll be covering more Saucony models in 2025.
@SagasuRunning So far, 2024 has been a stellar year. I can only imagine what 2025 has in store. Thx Chris.
I agree with you that the shoe is extremely versatile. Pity about the poor quality of the upper although the midsole makes up for it and leaves the legs feeling good after workouts. Going to be interesting to see how the Adidas EVO SL compares.
Actually, I agree. I think the Evo SL, even more than the B12, could be the shoe that compares the most to the ES4/5. I find it interesting that non-plated performance trainers are pushing into this conversation. We shall see in 2025. I will definitely be doing those "vs" videos.
@@SagasuRunning Just seen a leaked image of the Saucony Endorphin Speed 5 and the upper resembles the Pro 4, so it's looking promising. What a great time to be a runner with all the innovation in shoe technology.
@@icejam-xq5hj Yup, there are a few other images out there that show it better. Sadly the shoe seems to have gained more stack height… so we shall see.
My marathon time 4:30:00 do you recommend ES4? I won raffle few weeks ago and I just pick up the shoes this evening. I am done with Carbon Plated shoes. Still undecided to run with OnCloud Eclipse this time. Or will try Alphafly 2 again on the last 10 miles this weekend before NYC Marathon. Heal strikers here. Thank you. I always like your video ✌️
I'd seriously take a look at the Endorphin Pro 4 if I were you. Use the ES4 for tempo work, throw in a Triumph 22 for daily running (or the On) and race in the EP4. As a heel striker I honestly couldn't think of a better rotation.
The ES4 will do fine for a 4:30 marathon, or faster. The issue will be in that final 10k, when you NEED to support and help fo the shoe the ES4 will be a bit of a let down. The EP4 has a secondary foam in it (PWRRUN HG) that gives it a little more performance and the CF plate in that shoe will keep you rolling forward (Speedroll is the same in both shoes).
Thanks for getting back. I might try my Alphafly 2 one more time this weekend and decide later On Eclipse for last option.
@@user-wd8ig5fe3s The AF2 would be my second recommendation for a heel striker... so best of luck with it.
Thanks for the honest review, can you recommend a race trainer for a first marathon aiming for around or just under 4 hours please?
I'd seriously look at the ES4 + EP4 combo for that. Add in a Ride 17 as a daily trainer and you have all you need for training and racing. The EP4 is a great first super shoe and race shoe that you'll appreciate for a sub 4 time.
@@SagasuRunning I have the speed 4 and raced 10k in them last week, it’s a great trainer but needed a little more pop, have alphafly 3’s but I don’t feel I warrant them yet as I’m not quick enough was a impulse by when I booked the marathon 🤦🏻 thanks for the advice I will look at the P4’s and probably pick a pair up. Thank you again. Ps the shoe dog recommendation was spot on, great book and history lesson! 👌🏼
@LND_Ben Ya, the EP4 is the bridge you are looking for. “More” shoe than the ES4 yet still familiar and not as extreme as the AF3… though it will help you get ready to run more in that shoe over time.
I’m glad Shoe Dog was enjoyable. The first time through that story it’s a rollercoaster for sure. 👍🏻
Hopefully you could review the Saucony Ride 18 when it comes out.
The Ride 18 is definitely on the list. 💪🏻
I had mixed experiences with Saucony. I have pro 3, Triumph 20 and tempus that I really enjoy but speed 3 gave me a bruised big toe.
I didn't run in the ES3, but when i tried it on it was way too soft with a very constricting toe box...so not surprised by your comment.
Oddly, my upper opinions are almost completely different from yours. The speed 4 is one of the best fits I’ve ever found, but probably because my feet are super narrow. I think generally, a lot(but not all) of saucony shoes tend to be quite narrow
My feet are neither narrow nor wide, just normal, but I do have high arches and a high volume foot, which is part of the issue here. But only part, as I run in many narrow shoes, Nike, Nnormal and even Salomon...and have never had issues. Like I said in the video, the upper "works", it's just vague fitting, sloppy materials and overall could be so much better. The good thing is once I get the shoes on my feet and don't have to look at them, I forget about the issues and just enjoy that great midsole.
Curious if the fact you wash your shoes so much might be contributing to the dye bleed? I haven't experienced this...but my shoes only get washed in the rain! LMAO
I loved my Endo Speed V1, V3 gave me heel lift issues but I still liked the shoe...but I had to limited when/where/how I used it. I was gifted a pair of Endo Pro V3 to the person I gifted my Boston 12's to, and I don't have the heel lift issues in the pro...and my theory is it's due to the lack of a rigid heel counter so lace lockdown better allows the heel cup to conform to my foot.
I've since moved into the ASICS space (NB3/SB2), since their heel design works perfectly for me, and as good as Nike racer heels. And while I won't say I will never try a Saucony again, I don't feel the need since the shoe market in general is so balanced across the different companies now. It's a wonderful time to be a runner!
Even if it’s due to washing (which I doubt) it’s still unacceptable. This isn’t the first Saucony I’ve had this color bleed issue with. 10+ years ago my original Kinvaras also had the issue (and I never washed them).
I enjoy Saucony’s midsoles and the brand will be on the periphery of my focus, but I am paying attention now.
I've got a bit over 200 miles in mine and to be honest it's a very mehh shoe and I would not recommend it at full price. I use it mostly for Tempo and speed, as I don't really like it on slower paces because the geometry really benefits from faster speeds and my hell rubs a bit(only shoe this has ever happened, not an issue with any of the previous 3). However, I find that the Boston 12 performs just as well and it's way cheaper with better grip. The midsole it better in the Saucony though, and it definitely got better over time. I estimate that it will be great for a good 400 +miles, but so does the Boston 12 which is cheaper. Also hard agree on the smell, I thought I was crazy but you are 100% on point.
The B12 is definitely a better shoe for longer more focused efforts with pace, LSP is hard to beat for that. I said as much in my comparison of the two. Then again, I see the B12 and SB2 as interchangeable, it just comes down to if you and a plate/stiffening agent or not.
Speedroll gets in the way for anything approaching 5k pace for me, however I also dislike rockered shoes the fast I run...so thats more me.
I got the Pro 4s and the Speed 4s. I really enjoy both of them. Only issue I have with the Speed 4s is that after about 10 miles my forefoot starts to hurt. I don't know how anybody could run a marathon in them, a half marathon would be pushing it. I'm not even a heavy runner. Does anyone else have this issue?
I hit a limit around 20k… it’s not a stack issue for me it’s just the foam looses all its fun. The EP4 is by PWRRUN HG in this way.
@@SagasuRunning Hmmm, I took it on a 15 mile with 11 tempo and by mile 13 my feet were hurting bad. Could be because I'm running everything else in 38 mm or more stack 😂
Likely.
Another interesting video, thanks! What I’ve found is my carbon plated shoes (VF2, Sky Paris) only really kick in at sub 4min/km and above 5min/km are just unpleasant. Ran half marathon recently at even 4:05/km in Sky Paris. Found too slow a pace for getting the real benefit from them and was wondering if something like Endorphin Speed might be a better alternative?
I would agree with this, but specially for the Metaspeeds. Once you get under 4:00/km pace they come alive. Above that they are a bit rough.
The Vaporfly and Alphafly are a bit better, due to the flexibility in the plate. But also come alive at the above pace.
@@SagasuRunning thanks for the reply. Seems something that is missing from a lot of reviews is at what pace the different carbon racers really work. 4:05/km was ok with Sky P but nothing like it is at 3:35/km. Unfortunately don’t like how the VF2 makes me land (did a 10k race in them once, couldn’t wait to take them off!). That’s why I thought maybe the endorphin speed 4 might be a good choice 🤔
The EP4 is a very good super shoe. I’m a big fan of it. It has a larger sweet spot than a Metaspeed and can handle a broader range of paces. It’s not as outright fast as a Metaspeed, but it’s not far off.
. . .now I'm sniffing my Saucony shoes and comparing them to my Pumas and Hokas.
For me, the Hoka Mach 6 has been the "do it all" competition for the Endorphin 4.
I did a comparison between the Mach 6 and ES4…but the fit of the Mach 6 is what killed that one for me (I also have a video on that too).
Mach 6 reminds me a lot of Endorphin Speed 2
@minourbanik5606 I don’t get that vibe. It reminded me more of older Nike Epic Reacts oddly…. Except for the rocker.
@@SagasuRunning They feel to me like shoes that come to similar results in very different ways. The HM6 feels light and bouncy, and I feel like it takes less effort than normal to run a given pace. The ES4 feels aggressive, and it feels like the effort level that I would associate with a given pace has me moving 15 to 20 seconds per km faster. I recognise that those two descriptions probably sound similar regarding pace, but I'm unsure about how else to put it. 😅
The M6 did feel light and bouncy…. And stiffer than the ES4 with a more pronounced rocker. The ES4’s speedroll is more effective but less pronounced. The M6 had a similar roll off the toe to the old Epic Reacts from years ago…
You should try the Nike Rival Fly 4, a nylon plate old school A2 running shoes. Unfo is not avaiable in Europe, but i think is a valid alternative to speed 4
Funny you should say this... it's this Sunday's video. Not quite an ES4 alt...but something else all together different...something much better. Stay tuned. 🙌🏻
TRE24 is next month (the year was never shorter), and we'll get to learn whether there will be ES5/EP5 as '25 release models, but also, if the rumors on Endorphin Trainer (yes, that's how it's gonna be called) are true. Asics and Mizuno are also the one to watch.
I've seen quite a bit of the Saucony 2025 lineup and strategy, though it seemed incomplete when it was shared with me (some missing shoes). So yes, I'm looking forward to seeing it all in the TRE24 coverage. I'm not expecting massive changes from Asics in 2025, more of the same with foam tweaks...and I've not been able (or wanted too) wrap my head around Mizuno as of yet, so I'll just watch that one from the sidelines.
I'm looking forward to seeing some of Adidas's surprises, Brooks plans on moving the line towards the Glycerine Max and if New Balance is making any course corrections (not holding my breath though).
@@SagasuRunning Judging from this comment, I guess we'll be seeing even more exciting content and discussions here in 2025. 🤙🤙🤙
@@smagic614 So much more ahead… stay tuned. 🤙🏻
The same thing has happened to me with the hoka skyward X inside it has a red side support and this color has dyed the entire white side outside of the shoe leaving a horrible mark and the price is higher than the speed 4, from hoka I did not expect to find that detail I know it is aesthetic and does not affect the use of the shoe but for what you pay you deserve a better quality in the materials
Interesting. I've had many Hokas over the years and never experienced that, even in NYC salty/chemically sidewalk snow/slush. I wonder what Hoka changed in production for the Skyward X...
I owned the speed 2. Probably - for me - the best shoe that I have ever own. I used it for racing and speed training for around 1-2 years. Very fast, very nimble. I did mostly 10k and a couple of semi. That plate worked really well for me because I did not have the technique (and I still do not :)) ) to properly use a plated shoe. Worked very well at 4:30-5:20 min / km. Anything slower and it became painfull to run in. As of the 4, I tried it on in a shoe store in Portugal. Unfortunately those "geniuses" from Saucony do not have a local store in Romania where I can try it. For me, the Nike Plus shoe will not replace (ever) the Speed as I can use that nylon plate.
As usual, I want Saucony (and Puma) in Romania. I have plenty of Nike and Hoka and Asics :).
Saucony also has no real retail presence here in Taiwan. I know of one running store I can find them, eventually. So I’ll look in the US too.
I wasn’t a fan of the ES1 or 2…. The 1 was just meh to me. Then again, I’m a very different runner now.
@@SagasuRunning that part with "a trully different runner" is valid for me also. Come to think of it, that Speed 2 helped me move from heel strike to mid/forefoot. It also made me more of a stride than a cadence runner - even if I do not particilarly have the muscles for it. My form not being good, I somehow got the hang of using that plate. Made me more efficient because it moved me further with less effort at my "fast" paces. Fast = 5.10 / km. My stride increases to 1.10+ (from less than 1m). Cadence stayed almost the same. HR was better as beats/avg pace. Not a Saucony fan boy and for sure not everyone's story. But I was quite happy with the brand and I will probably buy again if I can put them on foot before purchase. I hate returns.
Nice data… sounds like the shoe really did work for you. It’s magical feeling when a shoe works that well, it really is.
As for fit, it always depends on the form of the foot. I personally have US12, but relatively narrow. Hokas, NB are all too wide. Saucony do fit well for me. I wonder that ES4 (this price catecory) have the poor upper (mesh). I did not try ES4. But Saucony has cheaper shoes with really great upper quality. Triumph, Tempus or even Ride. Rides are double layed and are great for colder times, but not for temperatures over 23-24 C. Adidas Adizeros, for example, are not for longer easy runs at temperatures below 10 C
I don't find the last of the ES4 overly narrow, and the EP4 is what I'd consider wide (for super shoe)...it's more the geometry of the toe box that is the issue.
As for Adidas uppers...It's a good thing I mostly run in temps over 30c, rarely under 20c and almost never under 10c.
Glad to see this comes back in your review.
When I first have it, i was estatic but more and more I tried and having Boston by my side, i cant help it but to sideline ESP for most of my run.
I previously use ESP for only easy miles but the heel of this shoe always get in the way and yes the smell is something I am irritated with aswell.
Then this shoe sort of sitting in the box and I decided to sell it. I am now looking to buy the ever grown popularity of max stack max cush shoe and was in the market of looking one.
Any chance you would do a video on this topic and some of the brand you think are doing it right. I dont particularly like it but just because I have all of the other line up, I would like to give this segment a try, trying to find something without plate in it.
Been looking at brand like :
1.brooks glycerin max
2.puma mag max
3.asic glideride
4.asic superblast (tho not too keen on this much as I tried them but didn't feel in love as much)
5.Hoka Skyward x (not keen on having plate)
6.NB More V5 (feels its too squishy)
Doing Max cushion right? Well, thats not really my thing...but I will say that I think Brooks may be the one to watch in the Max stack/cushioned space as they seem to be going all in on it across the lineup. The Glycerin Max is only a start but shoes a lot of where they are headed.
@@SagasuRunning Thanks!! Yeah Max Cush wasn't really my thing too, i guess i dont have a thing to begin with but coming from football, never had experience with running in max stack too, but i had a complete 4 rotation. daily, threshold/tempo, short speed and long speed , i think since all brand are kinda have their plateless max stack lineup, i guess i could give that a try.
Surprised me too, never thought Brooks would be so popular until recently all pop up me feed.
Seems like other brand than the usual nike adidas are taking their notes well too. But im curious to know, like when you mentioned Max Cush is not really your thing, may I know the exact reason?
I guess i kinda interested in understanding from more experience person in runnning of their perspective on Max Cush, are those type of shoes gonna make our feet like become not strong enough or like draw backs to it, if you could have like a philosophical discussion of why thats nof your thing, could be interesting topic too.
Thanks!
@subhi2698 If you’ve ever experienced a max cushion shoe, it’s definitely worth trying. That being said it’s a big change so go slow with them. Of all the recent max stack shoes the Brooks Glycerin Max is the most interesting, building on the properties of why a max stack shoe exists…. Don’t expect it to go fast or super super soft…. But expect roll and comfort.
As you are a fan of adidas, I'm curious as to how you compare them to the Boston 12 (which has exactly the same purpose/objective as ES I think)?
th-cam.com/video/GQ9fGUy82gI/w-d-xo.html 🤙🏻
I have vaporfly 2's but I always wondered which supershoe is the best for very short distances. We have a yearly running competition at the university where we have to run multiple 500m in 24h on a concrete street and I can't decide which one is the best to buy. I really like them, but I just find the vaporfly 2's extremely stiff and don't know what to think of it. I had the Nike tempo's before which obviously has the airpods and I don't know, it felt like they gave me that extra 'bounce' to keep going very hard the last 150m. I keep hearing stiffer supershoes (without airpods) are better for the short distances though. Can you give me your opinion? Great videos btw!
Interesting challenge/race. 500s over and over for 24h. Honestly, if I had to do that I’d likely opt for Vaporfly 3s. My second choice would be the Nike Pegasus Plus and my final choice would be probably the Adidas Takumi Sen 10. Over 24hrs I’d like rotate all three.
Stiffer isn’t always better for short distances. It really depends. I do a lot of 200s and 400s in non plated shoes (Peg Plus) but put on plated track spikes of VF3s for the reps that count. My advice is to train in both.
for context: the fastest I did the 500m in was with the nike tempo's in a time of 1min12s two years ago. In the vaporfly's I did a 1:14 last year but just some weeks after a big injury. Just so curious which shoe would help me the best to get under that 1:12.
@blacksheep6409 Vaporflys… seriously, your best option. Road or track…
@@SagasuRunning Well yeah it's more like an estafette run where all the different faculties of the university compete. Every 500m a new runner from each faculty has to run for its faculty. The faculty with the most amount of laps in 24h wins. So I do like 8 to 10 500's in 24h which means I have quite some time to recover in between. It's a weird, crazy (but very competitive) event, I know :').
Anyways I guess I'll use the VF2s (for the agressiveness compared to the VF3s) again in 2 weeks without rotation with another supershoe like the Takumi Sen 10 since it would cost a lot of money again. I'm just a student ;p. Hopefully I do better than last year. Thanks for your clear answer, definitely helped me!
@@blacksheep6409 Definitely go with the VF2s…. It’s the right shoe for it.
I haven’t noticed that smell at all…I do believe that this shoe is best for light narrowed foot runners. I find it great for T-Pace and faster runs. Anything bellow T-Pace feels clunky or boring. E-Runs are better ran on normal daily trainers with cushy/bouncy foams. I’m very happy with my pair 👌🏽👍🏼
T/E runs... you are going my Daniels, right? If so, I agree. Faster than T pace the ES4 gets very clunky fast and it will do E pace well, but I'd always want to do that in a non-plated daily trainer.
I don't see the Saucony fit as being overly narrow, I don't have a wide foot and don't really have issue with narrow shoes. it's more the angles of the forefoot toe area, it's jsut oddly done.
@@SagasuRunning Precisely going by Daniels! I agree with you too. I wouldn’t want to do easy runs with them anyways. I tend to gravitate towards my novablast 4s for that.
I see what you mean with the toe-box shape, but thats the best part about having options. You get to choose what best works for you!
Thanks for the review!
@@franciscoguerrero4246 Totally agree on options. Funny, I get a similar lateral toe swope on the NB4. It only bothers me on runs around or over 20k in them though. Under that I never notice it.
Interesting 🤔
I haven’t experienced any rubbing of the sort on any of the two shoes. However, I do wish the NB4 had a gusset, the tongue bunches up EVERY darn time I put them on, no matter how tight I tie them down.
The Speed 4s only gripe would be the laces…I’ll sometimes tie them down nice and secure, and they will stretch with time. Which is great as the foot swells during exercise, but not so great when it just makes the forefoot a tad too loose, causing some heat to build up at the bottom of said forefoot.
@@franciscoguerrero4246 Ya the ES4 laces aren’t great…. But they are better than the stretchy ones on the EP4… but that is a very low bar.
Do you think is a good shoes for make a marathon under -3h for a runner with 55 kilos ? on wet or damp ground I find that the grip is less good than the adidas adizero and the continental sole. Thank for the reply.
For a racing option from Saucony look at the Endorphin Pro 4 instead. The carbon plate and the secondary foam under the foot will be much appreciated in a sub 3 marathon. I have alot of content on the shoe and even an comparison.
The color bleeding is a real problem. Had a pair of red Speed 3 that bled all over my socks
Completely unacceptable. Spotty QC is something I’ve held against Saucony for years. Old Kinvaras had similar issues way back when.
I have serious issues with the heels counters in Saucony shoes. My heels really don't get along with them.
I can't remember the last time I had heel issues in a shoe, either lift or discomfort (beyond achilles rubbing/blisters) but can definitely see where Saucony's designs could cause issue. Especially in the ES4 as it's oddly straight and rigid in a surprising way with very little heel pocket.
excellent shoe the loyal saucony folks.
It definitely redeemed the brand (in my eyes) from my Kinvara experiences over the years...
250 miles on mine and about to retire. Been pretty great
Nice...What is making you retire them there? Outsole wear? Foam breakdown? Upper issues?
The original Endorphin series was the Kinivra in the 2000's to 2010's sometime and they were the predecessor to the Super shoe only they lacked stability similar to the old Lunarlon Racer another higher then racing flat shoe that was more like a conventional and older Kinivara before the pro/regular split had no rubber in the heel after X model where some people were using shoe goo on heel area of the pairs they used for regular trainer not pair they used to race in. I remember people getting injured in Socony back when the brand only had minimal drop in the two main models in the Kinevra single model and the Ride in both a trail and regular/Sense Ride trying to force Sense version of the Ride to be another model as this was all they had besides a racing flat that was same model last but changing names all the time as well as very different uppers each year. This was when Socony was losing all its runner fan base to Brooks becuse of how popular the shoes were to have a low drop back in 2013--2014 when most brands lines moved to a low drop around 5 MM and often less cushioning besides a few Nike models and all of the Brooks, back when Minimal was near its peak just before the Vibram Five Fingers lawsuit for several reasons dismissing one of the reasons as people were stupid but the rest staying toe issues of not fitting those injuries.
I ran extensively in Kinvaras from 2010 until about 2015 (Kinvara 1-6) as I was heavily involved in barefoot running back then and the Kinvaras were the first "normal" shoe that was minimal (not barefoot) and a good bridge in between standard shoes and barefoot shoes.
You are right, Brooks also had a few models that were low drop and more minimal back them. None of them were very good though as they all has odd forefoot rockers and geometry.
The Nike Free, predated the Kinvaras by about 6 years though...but were never built like a proper trainer, which is what the Kinvara brought to the table.
I definitely wouldn't consider the Kinvaras the first super shoes, not even close, nor would i say they had much influence on them at all. The Kinvara showed the running shoe industry that you could build a good standrard trainer, without all the overlays, midsole posts and unnecessary weight running shoes had at the time. The Kinvaras didn't start more minimal performance oriented shoes, but the created a mold for the industry to follow for a few years.
@@SagasuRunning also the New Balance brand had a cross country model that was beefier than a normal XC model Anthony Keupeka wore in 2010 for the Silverton 100 he taped his entire training for that he won before then getting sponsored by NB to help be a tester and more on developing the New Balance Minimus line. ASICS also had the DS trainer in the 2000's that was a tempo training model like the modern fast trainers some people use now, keep in mind that the 2000's was when running shoes were at the most cushioned besides a few modern brands/models like all of Hoka or some Ultra models of trail running shoes.
@@caseysmith544 Anton Krupicka…. And you are referring the NB’s “minimus” line of shoe, of which Anton was the face of for many years….. also that was the Leadville 100. The Minimis weren’t XC models…. There were minimalist trainers, there was a road and trial variant.
@@SagasuRunning Right I could not remember, the exact race but Anton ran in beefier XC non spike models from New Balance before he was ever sponsored by NB because the Cross Country models were beefier then the standard XC Models and he wanted a minimal shoe having read Born to Run as soon as it came out in 2009. This was PRIOR TO EVER BEING SPONSORED BY ANYONE but he got 1/2 size larger in New Balance of specific XC shoe so Anton could and did add some type of slightly cushioned insert like the Dr Sholl's all foam work model as he found the beefier XC shoe did not have the best midsole for running on top of rocks.
With my Original ID now - Hana Shorts! liked and subscribed
Welcome… back. 🤙🏻
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The Peregrine 15 will be coming out in 2025, would be interesting to see what you think of their trail shoes
Ya, Saucony Trail is something I am unlikely to try. never say never...but I doubt I'll go there.
Love the 14 GTX in the snow!
Luckily, I no longer need to worry about running in snow.
trail shoes are stiff as hell, i used to run in a normal kinvara for trails, as long as i knew to trail to avoid any root rollovers.
Some trail shoes are. There are many trail shoes now that are flexible and encourage natural movements in the foot like the old Kinvaras used too.
Don't get me wrong but for 200€ I don't want fit and upper issues nor bad quality control. It's a hefty price and the entire shoe should be top notch not only one part of it.
While price is never a metric for me with running shoes… I fully agree with you.
The Upper fit near the little toes is what turned me off the Saucony line. Which is a shame as I like their midsoles.
Ya, the lasts are odd. The EP4 has the same issue, but to a lesser degree. Definitely an odd design choice.
Its very similar to the Vaporfly.
No… BUT… it makes a good plated tempo trainer paired with the VF due to the flexibility in the plate. You learn how to engage that flexibility. However, the ride is much different due to the foams.
I have it, I love it, but I'm embarrassed how ugly it is. I can only wear saucony in the cover of darkness. However, the Peregrine is the best shoe ever made for offroad and winter running!!
Ha, you know....I have to admit I'm the same. I run often on some river bike/running paths, which can be crowded on weekends and holidays. I wouldn't be caught dead in the ES4, especially this colorway, on those days. But on a cool and rainy Tuesday... sure. 🤣
Mindful that shoe is more than 20% more expensive than the Novablast 4 & New Balance FuelCell Rebel V4 - fair to say at $170 it's overpriced? I'm failing to see where that shoe raises the bar above the aforementioned shoes. You did not say that shoe is making it's way to your little running closet, when the $140 NovaBlast 4 is there - say no more, those lines are easy to read between.
Well, neither shoe is "in" my little running closet and I don't see them as competing with one another. The NB4 is a cushioned daily trainer and since Asics doesn't really make a good tempo trainer anymore (solid no to the MS4 and the HS4 is a bit minimal for some needs) I would pair the ES4 with the NB4 as a tempo trainer for a marathon build, especially so If I was going to race in a Metaspeed or EP4.
The shoe that is in my little running closet is the Peg Plus...
I also rarely look at price and it's a non issue for me. Performance is what matter. Splitting hairs over $10-30 USD is nonsensical to me.
@@SagasuRunning ...if you're going to say that, it cuts both ways and $20 more than that Endo Speed 4 is the Hoka Mach X 2, $30 more is the Glycerin Max and I'm hard pressed to believe that Endo Speed 4 can 'perform' like those 2 shoes, no? It's very easy to go down the 'price creep' rabbit hole and before you know it you're spending 50% more than the NovaBlast 4 - just sayin.
@@therapygrind Sure… but both the shoes you mentioned are totally different classes of shoes. More is certainly not better here.
I realize price is relative and personal… but again, I never look at price as a deciding factor on the performance of the shoe.
For me the Speed 4 is totally different than the Nova Blast 4. The Sp4 is more nimble and gets really good turnover. The Nova 4 feels more clunky but gets better bounce and protects my legs over longer miles. I use them for totally different purposes.
@@PatrickStar_24 it is a pretty shoe, but as long as i have these tuition payments for this kids that totally F'ed up my shoe budget, i'm stuck with the no frills Guide 15 & 16 :(
Can’t run 5k pace in the ES4 😂
It feels like I'm tripping the entire way. The speedroll gets in the way at paces under 3:44/km.
It's not carbon plate. It's nylon, hence the difference
Not just that. The flexibility in the plate is unlike any other. Nike's Carbon plates have flex built into them, something other brands don't do well, but Saucony is on another level with the flexibility int his plate, carbon of nylon, doesn't matter.
Speed v1 & v2 are so much better.
I never was a fan...
@@SagasuRunning What makes v4 better…. Bcz you have some opinions about the shoe that kind of threw me off.
@@felixbruno7937 Specifically I think the geometry in the v4 is much better, much more in line what what Saucony is doing with their technology. The tweaks to PWRRUN PB over the years have also made the foam better as a training foam. The flexibility and stability of the shoe so much better as well.
I don’t know…. What makes the v1 and v2 better for you?
@@SagasuRunning Personally, v4 is better on the stability aspect. Now, as far as the comfort and performance of the shoe, it makes hold a steady pace. I wouldn’t say these shoes are daily trainers. But you can use them for that purpose. In all in, I have to say they’re better because, the construct of v4 is a completely different design. Endorphin pro 4 to me is a beautiful shoe. But the Speed 4 I personally think they could’ve done a bit better. There’s so many shoes in the market now.
@felixbruno7937 I also wouldn’t recommend the ES4 (or any plated shoe) as a daily trainer. I also agree the EP4 is a better designed shoe with better materials. I said as much on both counts in the video.
I just never liked the ES1/2…. It was just a boring show to me (compared to the joy of the Vaporfly 4% in that era).
Sorry, they can be they the best shoes in the world but I can’t overcome the fact that are so damn ugly (in my opinion).
More colors are available. I owned the 2 with some blue and they were ok from style pov
Fully agree. I loath this colorway, but it’s was the only one available here in Taiwan until very recently. The other colorway is a grey/blue that is honestly worst… Saucony color ways are always pretty rough anyway. But this one is awful…
the absolute worst version of the endorphin speed line, they messed up the toe box, cheaped out on the eyelets by reducing them in number and spacing hence making it a loser fit overall. terrible r and d team that took this shoe in the wrong direction. clearly saucony has lost it's vision or is cutting corners to save money. looks like a dying company to be honest.
Interesting comment. You may enjoy my next video on the channel, it’s not about Saucony… but mention the endorphin series in it. You hit the nail on the head as far as the direction here.