@@v44n7 she well knew he was in power, she just lost the war. But the moment he said ‘sooner’ she knew he didn’t come to negotiate, as her fate’s been already decided.
@@sirus976 you know, it’s not so certain that she would've necessarily been executed during the triumph. It's likely that the main purpose was in her total symbolic humiliation as the queen of Egypt, and of Egypt itself, to which she preferred "royal" suicide. And Augustus himself might not have intended to execute her after all, but instead let her live somewhere in exile, as she no longer represented any threat to him, or to Rome.
@@mutabore7 Executing the vanquished monarch during the triumph was the norm. There had been a few exceptions, including Cleopatra's own sister, Arsinoe, who was a young girl in one of Caesar's triumphs but was able to earn the public's sympathy and was sent to a temple in Greece rather than killed. Octavian's propaganda machine had painted Cleopatra in a very negative way at this time, however, and it seems very unlikely that she would have been spared. Romans wanted her dead!
Casting for Octavian was perfect, in all Roman records they say Octavian looked like a normal man, every feature except for his eyes, all documents mention he had eyes that could look right through people. This actor portrays that perfectly.
Ximares he is a cruel monster with teeth and no sister you body was dragged up their main Street well at least you weren't alive when it happened Roman people were more barbaric
Augustus was not psychotic. Cold calculating no doubt. When it came to his enemies, he wouldnt make the same mistake Julius Ceasar did, by showing mercy to the people that violently opposed him. Something the series doesnt convey is that Augustus took the power in Rome piece meal over years. By time he had it all the people the Senate, fell all over themselves to give it to him.
For those of you who don’t know, Roman generals who conquered territory where given huge military parades through Rome called Triumphs, and often they would lead the king and the nobles of said kingdom, in their best finery, though the city (for maximum humiliation), and at the end they’d be ritualistically strangled to death in front of the temple of Jupiter. We saw this with the death of Versengeterix in season one. Octavian was trying to force Cleopatera to willingly submit to this
@@thesnoopmeistersnoops5167 I’m sure examples like that happened in Roman history but Caesar wasn’t a drunk by any means. Sounds like a Caesar story with an Alexander personality
Fun fact: Cleopatra's own sister, Arsinoe, was going to suffer that exact same fate during one of Caesar's own triumphs. But the crowds were moved by her (she was a young woman and probably fluent in Latin), and begged for mercy. Caesar spared her life and sent her to serve in a Greek temple. This infuriated Cleopatra, who had hoped her rival sister would die; it also meant that Rome had a pretender to the throne of Egypt at hand.
What I think is fascinating is how both of them have their faces half covered in shadow while speaking to each other, perhaps a sign of how the two of them are both putting on a public face while keeping their real thoughts hidden. Cleopatra is trying to put on a calm ruler's face while she first tries to feel out Augustus and his intentions, then tries to charm and delay him, and finally tries to hide her terror as she realizes just how ruthless he is and that there's nothing she can do against him. Augustus meanwhile is putting on a facade of kind concern and reasonableness, and all the while he's thinking about how much political power he can win from bringing in a disobedient client queen back to Rome in chains, killing Caesarion to prove that there is only one "son of Caesar", and sending a message to every other Roman governor and conquered territory about what will happen if they ever try to rebel against him. For all of Augustus' cunning he underestimates Cleopatra here, she sees his true intentions better than he can see hers. But it ultimately makes no difference, because it doesn't make much difference to Augustus whether he brings Cleopatra back to Rome living or dead, and Caesarion really is no threat to him.
Hardly. If he was thinking 20 moves ahead then he would have taken Cleopatra then and there, rather than obliviously believing that she was swallowing his spheel. He underestimated Cleopatra, and that error of judgement denied him of his greatest prize.
theonlylampshade There is a theory (a documentary somewherte here), that all this 'snake and sword' tale was inveneted by Octavian's PR department and he might have had murder Cleopatra and may be even Antony. If he had taken her to Rome he would have had to spare Cesarion - who was 17 yer old lad. Otherwise he would pass for merciless monster. This was something, Octavian could not approve beceause he cared to be loved by plebs. It was easier to get rid off A & C, murder their oldest sons, arrange great royal funerals to show his respect for "Egyptian Queen" and Antony, despite he probably hated both of them. Later he could conquer the rest of Egypt and come back to Rome for his great triumph.
A rudimentary translation: "Your well being is my chief concern." _You are a valuable pawn to me. Alive or dead has yet to be determined._ "He's just a boy. He is no threat to me." _As soon as your son becomes a liability, I am ending him._ "You are Egypt. How could I replace you?" _You are Egypt. Therefore, if either you or Egypt becomes a thorn in my side, I will destroy Egypt and cast you down._ "As a friend, come with me to Rome." _Come with me to Rome as a political hostage, or else suffer the consequences of my previous statement._ "Or perhaps sooner. My ship is large and comfortable." _Naw, you're coming _*_now._*_ You will be comfortable, but there will be many guards._ "Please, you'd do me an immense honor coming with me as a guest." _What part about _*_now_*_ did I not make clear?_ "And the children of course. You must bring the children." _Oh, and I'm also taking your children as hostages too. Just so you don't get any funny ideas._ "We sail tomorrow." _You have until tomorrow to decide your fate._
Zuckerberg looks nothing like Simon Woods. Wood's is way better looking. It's like comparing the back of a school bus to a Ferrari and saying they look the same!
Augustus was described by historians of his time as a man of very rare charisma, very handsome, possessing 'radiant blue eyes' (as well as rotten teeth), and that he was able to charm anyone if he only wanted to. Does this sound like someone like Zuckerberg? Can you have even less charisma than Zuckerberg?
Octavian is looking at her and is practically saying "bitch, Everything you own is now mine." This guy would make all the guys from game of thrones crap themselves in fear. Long live augustus!
Great scene. Both actors were able to portray the characters' mutual understanding of each other's intentions. Cleopatra clearly knew that Octavian didn't have any intent to be merciful, and Octavian knew that. But both carried on being courteous to each other as a matter of decorum.
No. There’s another scene, later, where Octavian is speaking with Agrippa and Maecenas, in which Agrippa says ‘We should have taken her then and there in case she follows Mark Antony to the grave’, and Octavian says ‘Why would she do that? I was all sweetness and light with her. Charm itself.’ It’s just that Octavian is so emotionally desensitised that he doesn’t see how it’s coming off. You shouldn’t read things into a scene with such certainty when there are other possibilities.
I like how unlike both Julius and Mark Anthony, Octavian doesn't wear a suit of armor when entering egypt. Maybe it's not intentional, but it seems like he's saying that he is totally comfortable, Egypt is his. You don't wear armor when you're at home.
It was a sacrilege to were armor or military uniform in Rome. If you remember the first season common people were looking at Caesars soldiers as it they were devils. Also when Caesars and Pompey's soldiers first clash inside Rome they were dressed civilians. That's because, in a way God Mars was the Devil. He was also natural father of Romulus and Remus, but by the rape of Rhea Silva. For the Romans the father was that who raised you( Shepard Faustulus) not the biological one(Mars). So, no shrines to Mars were raised in Rome, no military uniform was allowed inside city walls. The army was assembled on the Fields of Mars outside the city and was dissemble before the river of Rubicon. Entering Alexandria dressed as civil was treating Egypt in the same way as Rome.Also in the last scene there is an inaccuracy with Octavian's triumph with soldiers inside the city.- Augustus never allowed uniforms to cross the city gates(but it's true that he posted soldiers in front of them in the case his enemies are going to try running)/ So what many European countries are doing on their National Day with army parading inside the capital, was a sacrilege in Ancient Rome they try to emulate
@@polo285 Pretorian guards haven't existed prior to Augustus. They were a concession made to the Senate being charged to protect the Princeps while being subordinated to the Praetor(a sort of Minister of Justice+ High Judge) independently elected by the Senate. The idea was if the Princeps abuse his powers, the Praetor could order the praetorian guards to do what they have done with Caligula, Heliogabalus and others. Barresting
@@polo285 Also typically praetorians didn't actually wear armour when on duty in Rome, unless under exceptional circumstances, often just wearing a toga (with which swords could be concealed). Makes sense, really, like how most modern bodyguards wear suits instead of uniforms.
Love how octavian is saying all the right things but his eyes are saying "i'm going to fu*king hurt you. Then brings the kids into it aswell. Being pretty smart herself cleo picks up on it very quickly. Next scene with her running down the corridor is good too. She basically knew that she had to seduce the dominant roman force to survive. Worked for her with Julius Ceasear, then again with Marc Anthony but not this time
WNShadow814 in reality Octavian had Anthony's son Antilles hacked toboueces in front of a statute of Julius Caesar and both of his sons by Cleopatra were dead by the time they were 5 years old. Only Cleopatra Selene lived into adulthood.
I love how Augustus knew exactly what cleopatra was trying to do. She was attempting to seduce and outmaneuvering him. As the conversation continues you can see cleopatra come to the realization it's not going to work. I really enjoy the second actor they got for Augustus, absolutely nails the dead inside cold stare.
Augustus was the best politician in late Roman Republic, better than Cicero and Caesar. Cleopatra played games with people, but Augustus knew only her death could cement his legitimacy.
@@ywiz8135eh, that’s a stretch. If it wasnt for better politicians before him (Caesar, Cicero), he wouldn’t be anywhere close to any real power. He wasn’t elected. He literally started by being unknowingly adopted by ceasar, practically inheriting Julius’ wealth, influence and connections. He’s intelligent and a good administrator, but i wouldn’t consider him “the greatest Roman politician”. Maybe the greatest Roman emperor
@@ywiz8135 In a way, Cleopatra out-manoeuvred Octavian at the very end in one small way. Octavian wanted her to return to Rome with him alive specifically because he wanted to make her walk in his Triumph. Cleopatra figured this out (in this scene she probably figures out Octavian's motives when he says "or perhaps sooner"). Cleopatra had no intention of being paraded through the streets of Rome as a trophy, so she killed herself instead. We're told she wrote Octavian a letter on what to do after she was dead, and Octravian, realizing what was about to happen as he was reading it, ordered men to seize her and prevent her from doing it, but they were too late.
I remember seeing this scene and immediately noticed that unlike Caesar and Marc Antony who arrived to the royal court for the first time wearing soldiers uniform, Octavian arrived dressed in a Roman Senator/Consul attire. Kind of struck me as symbolism that Octavian is a far different political leader the Egyptians where about to face.
It was pretty clear that he wasn't taking her to Rome so the "people could see her." He was getting her away from her vassal country (and any loyalists who might pick up a sword for her) so he could kill her and all her children. So yeah. He was a monster.
+infernocanuck Its amusing how after Cleopatra VII committed suicide, Octavianus ordered the death of Caesarion just a few days after (23 August 30 BC).
It seems to me he wants to use her as a prize in his Triumph when he returns like he did with Vercingetorix, and without a doubt have atleast Caesarion killed.
infernocanuck Cleopatra was pretty happy to leave the woman and children of Rome dying in starvation or beating others to death in riots for food. She is a worst monster
The reason why he's such a great threat to Cleopatra here is because she couldn't read his emotions at all. His stoic face is often taken for trickery and malicious intent.
Dear God, the sheer POWER emulating from the man’s facial expressions and voice is incredible. He would not back down in ANY way by the great Cleopatra and his insistence on certain preferences in this one scene were subtle commands. You WILL sail with me to Rome. It WILL be tomorrow, and you WILL bring your children. I imagine it may even have unnerved Cleopatra herself. She knew fairly soon here that she wasn’t dealing with another Mark Anthony. Caesar would’ve been proud. Terrific portrayal of Octavian by the actor. How on Earth did he not have a role in Game of Thrones in some way? Even in a flashback if need be. He would’ve made a terrific Lannister.
Every main actor on Rome actually was offered a role but declined (with the exception of Cesare/mance) because GOT was the reason their show was canceled and the remaining 4 seasons was condensed into 1 season
@@danybey4182 No it wasn’t. Rome was canceled for one reason and one only and that’s money. It was a giant hit and success but cost way too much to produce episodes.
@@TheBigToe69 There's an interview with Purefoy. When asked if he'd join the cast of GoT, he was very open in how insulted he and the, I assume, Rome producer were insulted by GoT, as he put it, "stealing their show". I imagine the sentiment was shared by many other cast members.
I loved how this series portrayed Cleopatra, because I think it is the most realistic interpretation of her yet. Hollywood usually has this image of her as a drop-dead goddess who used sexuality to get her way, but all the portraits that have survived show her as a rather plain looking woman, and it was probably her intelligence and charm that really won Ceaser and Antony over. I especially liked that they portrayed her as closer to her actual age during these events.
They were able to use genetics to do a reconstruction of her sister, whom she had murdered, and yeah she was pretty average looking. I can only imagine Cleopatra herself was also. She was politically savvy and she knew how maneuver her way around some of the most powerful men of her day. That takes courage and a sharp intellect.
@@DrForrester87 you have to keep in mind that people got more beautiful over time. So what we consider to be an “average looking” person could be one of the most beautiful people around for that time.
It's just words, but in effect Octavian just repeatedly stabbed Cleopatra until she died. And he didn't even blink. Dude is scarier than Hannibal Lecter!
Yeah. I love Aurelian. He is probably one of my top favorite emperors/military tacticians in Roman history. He was a genius of a military commander and restored the empire's unity and strength in the face of a series of barbarian invasions. I cannot imagine how he had the composure to defeat the Alemanni, Gallic Empire and the Palmyrene Empire. If he had lived longer, I am sure that he would have done a lot more. Unfortunately, one of his soldiers assassinated him.
It is probably because people still know less about the period after Septimius Severus/MArcus Aurelius than they do about other emperors. Aurelian ruled during the so-called "Crisis of the Third Century." The Roman Empire was not doing as well as it used to.
No need to try so hard to appear smart. Nobody said he actually stabbed her, it was just a metaphor to how venomous his replies were to her. Furthermore, the fact that he did not blink really added up to his character, no need to spell out all the cinematographic effects and gimmicks that allows an actor to easily achieve that. I am sure the Hannibal actors enjoyed the same advantage but we are talking about the character here and the result we see.
This show paved the way , and shame it ended well before it's time. Actors who played Mark Anthony and Octavian, alongside the the leads of whom we see this story through their eye, were simply magnificent..
@@S7yx0 nahhh the last chapters of the second season were rushed af, we literally saw how years passed from every chapter next to the other, while a lot of events were left aside or just talked to well from above... It shouldve had at least 1 season more to show us Antony falling for Cleopatra, his exhile, the war, etc. Not rushing that much, still 10/10 show for me.
Brilliant script, acting and direction. The conversation that they are having is 2 conversations in 1. The words uttered are completely different to what their genuine intentions and thoughts are.
+snifferdogx It was a nice touch, really. They talk all polite but Cleopatra is asking for mercy while still retaining power in Egypt. Octavian says "You and your son are coming with me. Not next year. But sooner rather than later. Or to be more exact... Fucking tomorrow."
Gaius Julius Caesar. He took the name of the first Gaius Julius Caesar, and is only called Octavian (Literally just the past tense of Octavius, his name before he changed it to GJC) by Historians. Rome at the time knew him only as Caesar.
From the start till 1:38 Cleopatra thought she had the upper hand and was able to convince young Octavian to do and give her everything she wants. After that point her demeanor changes when she realized Octavian is not Ceasar or Anthony who could be charmed and influenced by her sexual appeal. She realizes she's in the lion's den and she's the prey.
At 0:50 he says "No" in a way that questions her about why she's not scared anymore, then she explains that she was scared because Antony had told her that he was an evil monster and states she senses good and honesty in him, and then asks if she is wrong, then at 1:05 he says "No" a lot deeper and colder, like a subtle tell, that she should definitely still be scared. Its exquisite acting and dialogue. He walks in, makes polite condolences, offers any assistance, then with that first "No" hes engaged in maneuvering her into a spot where her and her children are killed, as if to say, "no more games Cleo, I'm aware of all the stress you've caused and its judgment day" it's so deep. I love it.
“You are Egypt.” “Let Caesar and Egypt be reconciled.” Caesar is dead, Cleopatra (aka Egypt) shall ‘reconcile’ with Caesar through death and the Roman people shall rejoice over it.
Octavian is referring to himself when he says Caesar. When Caesar adopted him he took the name Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus. When Caesar was assassinated he dropped Octavianus and by this time his formal name was Gaius Julius Caesar Divi Filius
@@erwin669 not really octavius never went by Octavian, which is just the shortened form of the past tense of his name. Caesar posthumously adopted octavian so he was never known as octavian during his life. As soon as Caesar died he (octavian)became Gaius Julius Caesar.
@@testchannelpleaseignore2452 Correct. But I assume to not confuse viewers, he went with "Gaius Octavian Caesar" in the show, which is kind of absurd, since it deletes his family name.
Love this scene (or just about any scene in "Rome"...) Notice how Octavian never threatens, never raises his voice- half the time he's almost whispering- and yet leaves no doubt as to who is in control here, and who will soon be dead...
Octavian and Cleo didn't have much dialog, but they said a whole lot. Amazing scene, loved both interpretations. Cleo was trying to gauge him as a man, with the traditional back and forth, he responded without hesitation, with a look in his eyes, like a hunter when he spots a massive prize buck, and was going to relish the victory.
Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus I am not surprised. Prof. Mary Beard once used a name - sorry - "the Emperor Bootykin"....;) On the other hand the trivia is, that every one bearing the name of Caius Iulius Caesar in Julio- Klaudian dynasty died prematuraly. Certailny , the most famous ones were assasinated and stabbed: the famous Caesar and unfamous Caligula , the the son of Germanicus. Gaius - the son of Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa and Julia the Elder, adopted by Augustus wasallegedly murdered when he was appointed as Augustus' successor. Some also add Augustus - Caius Iulius Caesar Octavianus allegedly poisoned by Livia and a few ancestors of Caesar himself.
You're right, his portrayal may not be entirely historically accurate, but the character of Octavian is not a work of fiction, so I disagree that the character is fictional. It's commonplace for historical movies and shows to alter the history around the characters, yet that doesn't mean that, ie, Hitler or Marcus Aurelius are fictional characters in their respective movies.
That was most tense, politie conversation I ever witnessed. Two leaders who have nothing but contempt for each other, one fearing for her life and the other the sadistic victor. A stare as cold and calculating as any maniac ruler in history
Well, I wouldn't call Octavian sadistic, that would imply he does the violent and brutal things he does for pleasure, when in fact everything he did was politically sane and logical, and probably necessary.
I loved this scene in the series. Octavian knew exactly that he was in the better position to negotiate and acted exactly the way he wanted, while the seductive cleopatra knew (like Octavian too) there was nothing she could do about it this time and this was the end for her
You are absolutely right from what I’ve been reading about Octavian and Rome. While he was a jerk in regard to Cleopatra, just like when he was proscribing wealthy people in Rome, when he finally took complete power as princips, not officially emperor, he became a totally different person, ruling with compassion and common sense. No wonder he is considered one of the greatest people in history!
Both Octavian's were great but I LOVED the depiction of older-Octavian. Dude was stone cold but at the same time I was rooting for him. Antony's behavior became increasingly worse and by the time he was with Cleopatra he was basically irredeemable. Cleopatra was quite nasty herself so I didn't feel bad for her here. Still though if I was in her position in this scene I'd be getting chills down my spine lol.
I liked younger Octavian. He was closer to descriptions of the real Octavian. While he could be down right cold and calculating he did have a compassionate side. i.e. While in the Show he didn't seem to care, Octavian in real life was really distraught over his decision to have Cicero executed in his proscriptions especially afterwards.
@Gregory Smith You're buying into Octavian's propaganda there. If Antony had faced him on the field and won (which was uncertain), he'd still have had to do an Alexandrian-style march around the coast of the Eastern Mediterranean in order to get back to his primary power base in Egypt, giving Octavian plenty of time to recover militarily and politically. Antony had very few friends in Rome after deifying himself and the Donations of Alexandria. A naval victory, on the other hand, would have stranded Octavian's legions in Greece, and likely led to a partial or complete collapse of his half of the Roman state as soon as Mark Antony took Rome with a couple of legions from the sea.
@Gregory Smith I agree with you here, that's what I wrote in the second half of my comment. What you were arguing in the first comment I replied to was that Antony's desire to fight a land battle was 'corrupted' by Cleopatra. In reality, a land battle was simply not strategically sound, and that for both sides, the naval battle was by far the more important battle.
The actor playing older Octavian is fantastic, his eyes are ice cold and belie the malice of his intentions. The strength of his acting is in his words, yes, but mostly just his expressions, IMO.
When Octavian lowers his head slightly at the end, you can tell by the murder in his eyes that he’s stopped pretending. No more decorum. No more formalities. Vae Victis.
How Greek.Egyptian she was is debatable, but EJP her last name is Ptolemy....the Macedonian general under Alexander the great that took control of the region.
EJP he’s correct. As a descendant of the Ptolemaic line, she would have been Greek. One comment points out that incest would have damaged the line to the point of infertility, but I would assume they would have had a European or Egyptian(most likely a slave) breed within the Royal line. I think they would have made a Greek slave do this to keep up appearances, but no one can be sure.
The Ptolemies also married into the Seleucid dynasty and dynasties from across the Middle East and North Africa. There was a Roman Emperor from a Syria who was descended from both the Ptolemies and Seleucids, and Zenobia, the rebel queen of Palmyra was also likely a descendent of them. A branch of the Ptolemies also ruled as clients in Numidia for a while after Rome annexed Numidia.
I just noticed Octavian didn't come before Cleopatra as a soldier nor an aristocrat. He came in just a plain, cotton senatorial Toga. She knew she was in trouble the minute she saw him. He didn't have to speak.
Context: She tries to manipulate him by telling him "I feel in you a good and honest man, I am not wrong am I"... He only responded "NO". Shee then realizes that, instead of falling into her own ego, he wastes no time. She makes advances to him very subtly and he cannot notice it because he does not feel desires and has his own Machiavellian plans in his head. She realizes that he is unmanageable, cold, intelligent and calculating with the upper hand and is several steps ahead. . They both had incredible performances
scrolled down to see if someone else caught this, as a former user i would put money on an opiate, pinpricked pupils with the slight redness/glassy eyes is the easiest sign to recognize before just nodding out. that said I think it put him at an advantage in this scene, so easy to feel and act superior when you actually do feel that way
As cold and "evil" as Octavian was, you can't underestimate the good he did for Rome and European civilisation in general for centuries to come. As the saying goes, "Sometimes you have to do a little evil to do a lot a good".
@paddlepopkid - One of my favorite lines of the series comes shortly after this scene, when Octavian is talking to Mycenas and Agrippa about the meeting, and Agrippa suggests Cleopatra may kill herself, and Mycenas opines that Octavian "can have that effect on people." Octavian replies: "Nonsense, I was Charm itself." To which Mycenas quips (this part being my favorite): "Yes. That can be your most disheartening manner." Just superb writing and acting all through this series of scenes.
It was exactly what once made Game of Thrones so great until it fell to pieces. As saddened as I was that Rome gave us only 2 seasons, I’m grateful it didn’t become too popular (during its original airing at least) and wasn’t ran into the dirt and we get to go back and marvel at wonderfully scripted and acted scenes like this.
@@emperorreign6154 If it would have its five seasons as originally planned "Rome" would have shown even the rise of early Christianity and some other things. Unfortunatelay, the second season was shortened so they had to rush through the (slightly) fictionalized actual historical events leading to the reign of the Princeps in what he, the historical Princeps called the "Res Publica Restitutio" the "Restored Republic". And so, unfortunately the show didn'T show how the Princeps actually became the undisputed ruler. Namely by publicly resigning, making the then already totally loyal senate and the peoples of rome as well as the surviving aristocracy fearing a new series of civil wars. And so, even the actual Augustus could be as cunning as he was depicted in this series. Spoler alert!! ;-) The senate gave him "voluntarily" and not under a visibly military pressure the offices which made him the undisputed ruler while remaining true to the Republican rules on the surface. And if you already knew it, please take it as a little history lession to other fellow readers of this comment section.
No, like saying that Woodrow Wilson was. He was Virginia Tidewater aristocracy, so something probably snuck in, but he was far more American Indian (~3%) than black. Same with her, something probably got in, but not enough to count.
God I love Octavian's acting through this. All the while smiling but the eyes are screaming: "I can, would love to, and am going to, fucking destroy you."
I wish it would show how Cleopatra fled down the hallways shrieking in terror after Octavian left, seeing through his charming demeanor and veiled threats behind promises...I admire Octavian.He is one of the most clever, charming, strategic, theatrical fox in History.
They are almost teens here, in fact Augustus was 33 and Cleo nearly 40 when they met. Another fact that many do not know: Cleo had four children, three with Mark Anthony were spared by Augustus and they lived well in Rome as nobles
urmo345 I just did, it says, "Simon Woods", the actor that plays the older Octavian Caesar, was born in 1980 and was 27 during this portrayal. and "Lyndsey Marshal", the actress who portrayed Cleopatra, was born in 1978. she was nearly 30 in 2007.
urmo345 you said that the actors were teenagers. I then made a guess to their age, then you in turn told me to look it up. which I did, proving my observation was more than accurate. what exactly does the slight age difference they have with their historical counterparts have to do with anything? it's a TV show. not a historical documentary. do you think they'd really limit themselves in terms of actor/actress availability with such a trivial matter? they were spectacular in their performances, and the show was entertaining. that's all they were hoping for. many historians and critics have praised this show for its realistic depiction of the times, when they easily could have just over-dramatized like any of the other dozens of popular productions set in this and subsequent eras. would you have preferred a long and drawn out historically accurate soap opera of tedious speeches and political manuevering? did you know that the speech Cicero gave in, "absentia" about Marc Antony which was also shown in this show was in reality about a dozen pages long?
Octavian had a steely resolve because he had been deeply hurt by the injustice done to Caesar. He never forgot that and he worked to Ensure Caesar's will is executed
There's a lot to be said about the (many) flaws of GoT but the characters (especially in ASOIAF) are so well written and like the above comment says, based on historical characters.
Maybe in a way that It's pretty much upcomparable. Yes sure both series show us political power play, with the main DIFFERENCE BEING that in Rome people shown are REAL people making decisions that will later affect millions of people's lives and ultimately NONE of them are ever going to find the BEST solution to any and all of the problems in their political game. That's because no human is capable of knowing or even imagining what consequnce their actions will have outside of very small window of time in the grand scheme of things. (aka history is and will always be flawed no matter what because it is built by human decisions and we are without a doubt flawed creatures if nothing else) Where as A song of Ice and Fire and/or Game of thrones (take as you will after a certain point to me they take such different turns that they start to look like alternative universes with same but different people/characters) was created as a book series by power of the brilliant mind of George R.R. Martin but that's exacly IT. It was created by one man who in the end knows EVERYTHING.. He created the entire universe on blank canvas and knows how everything's going to play out from start to finish. Everything that happens is, as is the case with every work of fiction, international everything happens for a reason, everything is planned to bring the characters and with that the reader to the ENDGAME. Of course you can say well Daenerys made a stupid decision or what Tyrion is doing makes no sense, but it all George MAKING them do this or that for a specific purpose, where on the other hand some questionable or weird decisions made by Cleopatra or Caesar or Octavian really have us thinking WHAT THE HELL DUDE?? WHYYY?HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED DIED BECAUSE OF THAT, DID YOU JUST HAVE MY GREAT GREAT GREAT..... GREAT GRANDPA KILLED BY THAT??? With that being said I enjoy and LOVE both Rome and ASOIAF and enjoyed Game of Thrones till season 6 (what the fucking hell HBO how did you manage to kill THIS MASTERPIECE, which I will NEVER forgive you for, and leave Game of Thrones going in oh so capable hands of DnD so you could get more money. It's like leaving a wealthy but senile old cousin with the least qualified person you could find to go and get every last cent of their bank account before they die)
God I hated Antonys guts in the series. Too bad they didn't show the battle of actium better when he gets his ass whooped by Agrippa. Octavian is BOSS!
JOJO this is clearly a women. Don’t even bother. Octavian seems to bring bad feelings to women because he ended cleopatra. The handful of female rulers that were somewhat effective Besides the excellent British queens that ruled with great competence. Queen Elizabeth the first for example. One of the greatest queens in human history.
@@jr8573 Jesus, chill bro\sis, BTW I'm a dude, and don't take it 2 seriously, i get that it's a show and they have to develop characters in a certain predetermined path to keep it fun/consistent. I just loved Octavians' portrayal, this politically savvy kid, extremely cynical and super cunning, that's all. Although I really did hate Anthony's guts, he was itching for war, and really loved it when he got his ass kicked.
At this point Cleopatra had tricked Mark Antony into killing himself and hoped to win over Octavian. I'm really glad Octavian saw her for the evil being she is and wasn't fooled for a second.
"Yes... Or perhaps sooner."
You can tell that's kind of the moment Octavian went "Well this has been fun and all, but let's get to the execution."
I would say more like "Dont forget that I am the one in power and you just a mere puppet"
@@v44n7 she well knew he was in power, she just lost the war. But the moment he said ‘sooner’ she knew he didn’t come to negotiate, as her fate’s been already decided.
@@mutabore7 Yeah and if she went, she would be shown in a Roman Triumph publicly executed.
@@sirus976 you know, it’s not so certain that she would've necessarily been executed during the triumph. It's likely that the main purpose was in her total symbolic humiliation as the queen of Egypt, and of Egypt itself, to which she preferred "royal" suicide. And Augustus himself might not have intended to execute her after all, but instead let her live somewhere in exile, as she no longer represented any threat to him, or to Rome.
@@mutabore7 Executing the vanquished monarch during the triumph was the norm. There had been a few exceptions, including Cleopatra's own sister, Arsinoe, who was a young girl in one of Caesar's triumphs but was able to earn the public's sympathy and was sent to a temple in Greece rather than killed. Octavian's propaganda machine had painted Cleopatra in a very negative way at this time, however, and it seems very unlikely that she would have been spared. Romans wanted her dead!
When Cleopatra says "i remain queen of Egypt" and Octavian responds "YOU are Egypt"
he is basically saying that with her death Egypt will die too
And basically that you are Egypt I own you now.
He’s saying “you’ve already been conquered, come quietly”
Casting for Octavian was perfect, in all Roman records they say Octavian looked like a normal man, every feature except for his eyes, all documents mention he had eyes that could look right through people. This actor portrays that perfectly.
Like Putin
@@paulpaynter2455 Unlike Putin he also had plans that actually work
@@SaladofStones Aparently they are both alike in having their war fleets obliterated.
@@chromicm6686 too soon....
Which documents? Would make for an interesting read
"My ship is large and comfortable"
Best pickup line ever
I think "My dick is large and comfortable" might be even better.....
No class! No ROMAN class!
I think that was the line Cleopatra used when she first met Anthony
Ximares he is a cruel monster with teeth and no sister you body was dragged up their main Street well at least you weren't alive when it happened Roman people were more barbaric
Everything about that's right..........except for "throne"
Octavian has the predatory look of an eagle about him. Well cast.
he was the imbodiment of ceaser made over . only more deadlyer
You should see him in pride and prejudice. He looks like a sweet puppy in that one.
Funny you use that phrase, the Romans described their most impressive looking men as having the “look of eagles” about them.
If anyone knows the series Berserk, I always thought this would be the perfect actor for the role of Griffith
@@TheBeastr Well said.
The casting for Octavian was perfect, the guy has the stone cold eyes of a predator
Yeah, more fitting that the original actor
@@tFighterPilotThe original fits for child Octavian, which is what he was for.
I love how Octavian's character is reptilian cold in all of his scenes......clear headed...single minded...determined.... psychotic. Superb.
And literally doesn't blink.
Augustus was not psychotic. Cold calculating no doubt. When it came to his enemies, he wouldnt make the same mistake Julius Ceasar did, by showing mercy to the people that violently opposed him.
Something the series doesnt convey is that Augustus took the power in Rome piece meal over years. By time he had it all the people the Senate, fell all over themselves to give it to him.
@@teufelshunde4 Definitely not psychotic. I'm guessing the OP meant psychopathic. Different thing.
Julius wanted to be a benevolent dictator. Octavian just wanted to be a dictator.
Mon Mothma yeah was about to say this. He is one of the most shrewd men to walk this planet.
For those of you who don’t know, Roman generals who conquered territory where given huge military parades through Rome called Triumphs, and often they would lead the king and the nobles of said kingdom, in their best finery, though the city (for maximum humiliation), and at the end they’d be ritualistically strangled to death in front of the temple of Jupiter. We saw this with the death of Versengeterix in season one. Octavian was trying to force Cleopatera to willingly submit to this
I thought Vercingetorix was strangled by Caesar at a party, a moment of drunken spontaneous anger.
Exactly and she saw it so she knows.
@@thesnoopmeistersnoops5167 he was strangled in a jail cell some time after the triumph lol
@@thesnoopmeistersnoops5167 I’m sure examples like that happened in Roman history but Caesar wasn’t a drunk by any means. Sounds like a Caesar story with an Alexander personality
Fun fact: Cleopatra's own sister, Arsinoe, was going to suffer that exact same fate during one of Caesar's own triumphs. But the crowds were moved by her (she was a young woman and probably fluent in Latin), and begged for mercy. Caesar spared her life and sent her to serve in a Greek temple. This infuriated Cleopatra, who had hoped her rival sister would die; it also meant that Rome had a pretender to the throne of Egypt at hand.
Ever notice that during this entire scene, Augustus never once blinks.
What I think is fascinating is how both of them have their faces half covered in shadow while speaking to each other, perhaps a sign of how the two of them are both putting on a public face while keeping their real thoughts hidden. Cleopatra is trying to put on a calm ruler's face while she first tries to feel out Augustus and his intentions, then tries to charm and delay him, and finally tries to hide her terror as she realizes just how ruthless he is and that there's nothing she can do against him.
Augustus meanwhile is putting on a facade of kind concern and reasonableness, and all the while he's thinking about how much political power he can win from bringing in a disobedient client queen back to Rome in chains, killing Caesarion
to prove that there is only one "son of Caesar", and sending a message to every other Roman governor and conquered territory about what will happen if they ever try to rebel against him.
For all of Augustus' cunning he underestimates Cleopatra here, she sees his true intentions better than he can see hers. But it ultimately makes no difference, because it doesn't make much difference to Augustus whether he brings Cleopatra back to Rome living or dead, and Caesarion really is no threat to him.
He blinked once when he first started talking.
stare of the snake. That was idea, i am sure
Historic fact. :)
bitch nice cinematography in this tv show
Octavian would make even a Lannister crap in their pants. Cold, thinking 20 moves ahead. Awesome character but creepy.
Well, I don't think so...
Octavian reminds me of Petyr Baelish .......
Hardly. If he was thinking 20 moves ahead then he would have taken Cleopatra then and there, rather than obliviously believing that she was swallowing his spheel. He underestimated Cleopatra, and that error of judgement denied him of his greatest prize.
theonlylampshade
I get the feeling that if you asked him what his greatest prize was, he would have honestly said "Rome"
theonlylampshade There is a theory (a documentary somewherte here), that all this 'snake and sword' tale was inveneted by Octavian's PR department and he might have had murder Cleopatra and may be even Antony. If he had taken her to Rome he would have had to spare Cesarion - who was 17 yer old lad. Otherwise he would pass for merciless monster. This was something, Octavian could not approve beceause he cared to be loved by plebs. It was easier to get rid off A & C, murder their oldest sons, arrange great royal funerals to show his respect for "Egyptian Queen" and Antony, despite he probably hated both of them. Later he could conquer the rest of Egypt and come back to Rome for his great triumph.
A rudimentary translation:
"Your well being is my chief concern." _You are a valuable pawn to me. Alive or dead has yet to be determined._
"He's just a boy. He is no threat to me." _As soon as your son becomes a liability, I am ending him._
"You are Egypt. How could I replace you?" _You are Egypt. Therefore, if either you or Egypt becomes a thorn in my side, I will destroy Egypt and cast you down._
"As a friend, come with me to Rome." _Come with me to Rome as a political hostage, or else suffer the consequences of my previous statement._
"Or perhaps sooner. My ship is large and comfortable." _Naw, you're coming _*_now._*_ You will be comfortable, but there will be many guards._
"Please, you'd do me an immense honor coming with me as a guest." _What part about _*_now_*_ did I not make clear?_
"And the children of course. You must bring the children." _Oh, and I'm also taking your children as hostages too. Just so you don't get any funny ideas._
"We sail tomorrow." _You have until tomorrow to decide your fate._
Can you do this for every significant conversation in this show
Perfect translation!!!
This would be awesome as a play by play in a TH-cam video
Lol that was great! Incredible translation
Amazing
Mark Zuckerberg did an excellent job of playing Octavian
😂😂😂 Zuckerberg is the reincarnation LoL
This actor's waaay more handsome than that Zuckerberg boy
Zuckerberg looks nothing like Simon Woods. Wood's is way better looking. It's like comparing the back of a school bus to a Ferrari and saying they look the same!
He was spot on...the eyes speak...Octavian was very wise without words
Augustus was described by historians of his time as a man of very rare charisma, very handsome, possessing 'radiant blue eyes' (as well as rotten teeth), and that he was able to charm anyone if he only wanted to. Does this sound like someone like Zuckerberg? Can you have even less charisma than Zuckerberg?
Octavian is looking at her and is practically saying "bitch, Everything you own is now mine." This guy would make all the guys from game of thrones crap themselves in fear. Long live augustus!
He was also a real person.. Fuck riding dragons this guy unified the first true global empire ( with respect to the Sumerians and Egyptians)
look's like he said "now you f*ck up, b*tch. I kill you to the ground..." LOL
277imperator true,and it takes a lot of skill to write such a subtle dialog (and an intelligent viewer to get it)
I wish some character like Octavian do the same to the whore Daenerys
@@faustinotrejo6062 Daenerys was more like Cleopatra than Octavian, clinging to the remains of a mad, incestuous foreign dynasty in an exotic land.
Great scene. Both actors were able to portray the characters' mutual understanding of each other's intentions. Cleopatra clearly knew that Octavian didn't have any intent to be merciful, and Octavian knew that. But both carried on being courteous to each other as a matter of decorum.
Its so English.
@@willtait7170 You beat me to it :D Totally British!
What is the movie name
@@marymessam2435 HBO Rome
No. There’s another scene, later, where Octavian is speaking with Agrippa and Maecenas, in which Agrippa says ‘We should have taken her then and there in case she follows Mark Antony to the grave’, and Octavian says ‘Why would she do that? I was all sweetness and light with her. Charm itself.’ It’s just that Octavian is so emotionally desensitised that he doesn’t see how it’s coming off.
You shouldn’t read things into a scene with such certainty when there are other possibilities.
I like how unlike both Julius and Mark Anthony, Octavian doesn't wear a suit of armor when entering egypt.
Maybe it's not intentional, but it seems like he's saying that he is totally comfortable, Egypt is his. You don't wear armor when you're at home.
That’s an interesting thought.
It was a sacrilege to were armor or military uniform in Rome. If you remember the first season common people were looking at Caesars soldiers as it they were devils. Also when Caesars and Pompey's soldiers first clash inside Rome they were dressed civilians. That's because, in a way God Mars was the Devil. He was also natural father of Romulus and Remus, but by the rape of Rhea Silva. For the Romans the father was that who raised you( Shepard Faustulus) not the biological one(Mars). So, no shrines to Mars were raised in Rome, no military uniform was allowed inside city walls. The army was assembled on the Fields of Mars outside the city and was dissemble before the river of Rubicon. Entering Alexandria dressed as civil was treating Egypt in the same way as Rome.Also in the last scene there is an inaccuracy with Octavian's triumph with soldiers inside the city.- Augustus never allowed uniforms to cross the city gates(but it's true that he posted soldiers in front of them in the case his enemies are going to try running)/ So what many European countries are doing on their National Day with army parading inside the capital, was a sacrilege in Ancient Rome they try to emulate
@@tfmihancea what about preatorians
@@polo285 Pretorian guards haven't existed prior to Augustus. They were a concession made to the Senate being charged to protect the Princeps while being subordinated to the Praetor(a sort of Minister of Justice+ High Judge) independently elected by the Senate. The idea was if the Princeps abuse his powers, the Praetor could order the praetorian guards to do what they have done with Caligula, Heliogabalus
and others.
Barresting
@@polo285 Also typically praetorians didn't actually wear armour when on duty in Rome, unless under exceptional circumstances, often just wearing a toga (with which swords could be concealed). Makes sense, really, like how most modern bodyguards wear suits instead of uniforms.
Love how octavian is saying all the right things but his eyes are saying "i'm going to fu*king hurt you. Then brings the kids into it aswell. Being pretty smart herself cleo picks up on it very quickly. Next scene with her running down the corridor is good too. She basically knew that she had to seduce the dominant roman force to survive. Worked for her with Julius Ceasear, then again with Marc Anthony but not this time
WNShadow814 in reality Octavian had Anthony's son Antilles hacked toboueces in front of a statute of Julius Caesar and both of his sons by Cleopatra were dead by the time they were 5 years old. Only Cleopatra Selene lived into adulthood.
+Nigel Sheppard It's *Antyllus. And Kleopatra Selene's brothers lived past five years if age, but yes she lived to adulthood.
Octavian wasn't going to make the same mistake his uncle did.
A whore that cannot seduce is like a snake without venom.
+STEVE P....She wasnt even trying....you know that right...wink
I love how Augustus knew exactly what cleopatra was trying to do. She was attempting to seduce and outmaneuvering him. As the conversation continues you can see cleopatra come to the realization it's not going to work. I really enjoy the second actor they got for Augustus, absolutely nails the dead inside cold stare.
Augustus was the best politician in late Roman Republic, better than Cicero and Caesar. Cleopatra played games with people, but Augustus knew only her death could cement his legitimacy.
@@ywiz8135eh, that’s a stretch. If it wasnt for better politicians before him (Caesar, Cicero), he wouldn’t be anywhere close to any real power.
He wasn’t elected. He literally started by being unknowingly adopted by ceasar, practically inheriting Julius’ wealth, influence and connections.
He’s intelligent and a good administrator, but i wouldn’t consider him “the greatest Roman politician”.
Maybe the greatest Roman emperor
@@ywiz8135 In a way, Cleopatra out-manoeuvred Octavian at the very end in one small way. Octavian wanted her to return to Rome with him alive specifically because he wanted to make her walk in his Triumph. Cleopatra figured this out (in this scene she probably figures out Octavian's motives when he says "or perhaps sooner"). Cleopatra had no intention of being paraded through the streets of Rome as a trophy, so she killed herself instead. We're told she wrote Octavian a letter on what to do after she was dead, and Octravian, realizing what was about to happen as he was reading it, ordered men to seize her and prevent her from doing it, but they were too late.
The fact that he doesn't blink once during the course of this conversation is just incredible. It really adds to the effect.
Foreal Brom cold as ice.
I remember seeing this scene and immediately noticed that unlike Caesar and Marc Antony who arrived to the royal court for the first time wearing soldiers uniform, Octavian arrived dressed in a Roman Senator/Consul attire.
Kind of struck me as symbolism that Octavian is a far different political leader the Egyptians where about to face.
Well, Octavian wasn't really a soldier. So it is quite fitting.
Octavian: You're going to Rome and not exactly as a tourist.
Cleopatra: Maybe next summer.
Octavian: Yes... Or perhaps sooner.
Cleopatra: **GULP**
You left out the funniest part, where she runs through the palace bawling because "He's a monster!" lol
It was pretty clear that he wasn't taking her to Rome so the "people could see her." He was getting her away from her vassal country (and any loyalists who might pick up a sword for her) so he could kill her and all her children. So yeah. He was a monster.
+infernocanuck
Its amusing how after Cleopatra VII committed suicide, Octavianus ordered the death of Caesarion just a few days after (23 August 30 BC).
It seems to me he wants to use her as a prize in his Triumph when he returns like he did with Vercingetorix, and without a doubt have atleast Caesarion killed.
INFERNO!!!!
infernocanuck
Cleopatra was pretty happy to leave the woman and children of Rome dying in starvation or beating others to death in riots for food. She is a worst monster
Simon Woods put in a massively underrated performance as Octavian. He was so calm, but so predatory.
Well said !
The reason why he's such a great threat to Cleopatra here is because she couldn't read his emotions at all. His stoic face is often taken for trickery and malicious intent.
What the fuck, no is not, this is clearly he demanding her to come to Rome for his triumph, why do you think she killed herself? Depression?
She killed herself after this conversation. Why? Because she knew her fate. She clearly read his intentions, and they were not for her well being.
He is the man who wrote the universal guidebook for all stoics worldwide after all.
@@EternalVirgin Really? The only Roman Emperor who wrote any Stoic text that I know of was Marcus Aurelius
@@theunraveler I was fucked out of my mind when I typed that comment
Dear God, the sheer POWER emulating from the man’s facial expressions and voice is incredible. He would not back down in ANY way by the great Cleopatra and his insistence on certain preferences in this one scene were subtle commands. You WILL sail with me to Rome. It WILL be tomorrow, and you WILL bring your children. I imagine it may even have unnerved Cleopatra herself. She knew fairly soon here that she wasn’t dealing with another Mark Anthony. Caesar would’ve been proud. Terrific portrayal of Octavian by the actor. How on Earth did he not have a role in Game of Thrones in some way? Even in a flashback if need be. He would’ve made a terrific Lannister.
Every main actor on Rome actually was offered a role but declined (with the exception of Cesare/mance) because GOT was the reason their show was canceled and the remaining 4 seasons was condensed into 1 season
@@danybey4182 No it wasn’t. Rome was canceled for one reason and one only and that’s money. It was a giant hit and success but cost way too much to produce episodes.
@@TheBigToe69 ok☺
@@TheBigToe69 You sure about that? GOT was more expensive, by far.
@@TheBigToe69 There's an interview with Purefoy. When asked if he'd join the cast of GoT, he was very open in how insulted he and the, I assume, Rome producer were insulted by GoT, as he put it, "stealing their show". I imagine the sentiment was shared by many other cast members.
The guy they picked to play Octavian did this perfectly.
I loved how this series portrayed Cleopatra, because I think it is the most realistic interpretation of her yet. Hollywood usually has this image of her as a drop-dead goddess who used sexuality to get her way, but all the portraits that have survived show her as a rather plain looking woman, and it was probably her intelligence and charm that really won Ceaser and Antony over. I especially liked that they portrayed her as closer to her actual age during these events.
They were able to use genetics to do a reconstruction of her sister, whom she had murdered, and yeah she was pretty average looking. I can only imagine Cleopatra herself was also. She was politically savvy and she knew how maneuver her way around some of the most powerful men of her day. That takes courage and a sharp intellect.
1988 CLEOPATRA VII DERNIÈRE REINE EGYPTE ROME JULES REMI GOFFLO CÉSAR ROMAINS OCTAVIAN
Average looking but great in bed.
@@DrForrester87 you have to keep in mind that people got more beautiful over time. So what we consider to be an “average looking” person could be one of the most beautiful people around for that time.
@@luceafarul579 thats bullshit
The actor who played Octavian did an amazing job. Seeing Octavian makes me think of a tiger or a shark in human form.
It's just words, but in effect Octavian just repeatedly stabbed Cleopatra until she died.
And he didn't even blink. Dude is scarier than Hannibal Lecter!
Same with what Aurelian did later on with Zenobia and Tetricus.
Yeah. I love Aurelian. He is probably one of my top favorite emperors/military tacticians in Roman history. He was a genius of a military commander and restored the empire's unity and strength in the face of a series of barbarian invasions. I cannot imagine how he had the composure to defeat the Alemanni, Gallic Empire and the Palmyrene Empire. If he had lived longer, I am sure that he would have done a lot more. Unfortunately, one of his soldiers assassinated him.
It is probably because people still know less about the period after Septimius Severus/MArcus Aurelius than they do about other emperors. Aurelian ruled during the so-called "Crisis of the Third Century." The Roman Empire was not doing as well as it used to.
This actor is fantastic he should have played heydrich in anthropoid!!!!!
No need to try so hard to appear smart.
Nobody said he actually stabbed her, it was just a metaphor to how venomous his replies were to her.
Furthermore, the fact that he did not blink really added up to his character, no need to spell out all the cinematographic effects and gimmicks that allows an actor to easily achieve that. I am sure the Hannibal actors enjoyed the same advantage but we are talking about the character here and the result we see.
This show paved the way , and shame it ended well before it's time.
Actors who played Mark Anthony and Octavian, alongside the the leads of whom we see this story through their eye, were simply magnificent..
I believe the series told its story and ended in a good manner. More would have been too much.
@@S7yx0 nahhh the last chapters of the second season were rushed af, we literally saw how years passed from every chapter next to the other, while a lot of events were left aside or just talked to well from above... It shouldve had at least 1 season more to show us Antony falling for Cleopatra, his exhile, the war, etc. Not rushing that much, still 10/10 show for me.
A Narcissist meeting a Machiavellian, the latter wins, always.
Big Smoke ..Well said 👍
@@Rome274 more wives, your grace?
Augustus was a just and noble leader, considered one of the greatest leaders of all time. He was neither a narcissist or Machiavellian.
Augustus had Cleopatra's son strangled to death after she committed suicide. He was just as cold blooded and ruthless as Cleopatra. Both were snakes!
that's not the record from his peers and others. killing someone does not necessary make you a snake. there are lots of reasons to kill someone.
Brilliant script, acting and direction. The conversation that they are having is 2 conversations in 1. The words uttered are completely different to what their genuine intentions and thoughts are.
+snifferdogx It was a nice touch, really. They talk all polite but Cleopatra is asking for mercy while still retaining power in Egypt. Octavian says "You and your son are coming with me. Not next year. But sooner rather than later. Or to be more exact... Fucking tomorrow."
I heard every one of his lines after he spoke them as, "I'm going to murder you and your family,".
He was being respectfull to her but his demeanor meant he wanted to kill her and her kids.
Yes, It's so brilliant
And Cleopatra can't say no, because of _the implication._
scare tactics 101 brought to you by Gaius Octavian Caesar later known as Augustus
Gaius Julius Caesar. He took the name of the first Gaius Julius Caesar, and is only called Octavian (Literally just the past tense of Octavius, his name before he changed it to GJC) by Historians. Rome at the time knew him only as Caesar.
From the start till 1:38 Cleopatra thought she had the upper hand and was able to convince young Octavian to do and give her everything she wants. After that point her demeanor changes when she realized Octavian is not Ceasar or Anthony who could be charmed and influenced by her sexual appeal. She realizes she's in the lion's den and she's the prey.
"Even Caesarion?"
"He's just a boy, he's no threat to me. Buuuuttt, I'm gonna murder the shit out of him anyway."
At 0:50 he says "No" in a way that questions her about why she's not scared anymore, then she explains that she was scared because Antony had told her that he was an evil monster and states she senses good and honesty in him, and then asks if she is wrong, then at 1:05 he says "No" a lot deeper and colder, like a subtle tell, that she should definitely still be scared. Its exquisite acting and dialogue. He walks in, makes polite condolences, offers any assistance, then with that first "No" hes engaged in maneuvering her into a spot where her and her children are killed, as if to say, "no more games Cleo, I'm aware of all the stress you've caused and its judgment day" it's so deep. I love it.
“You are Egypt.”
“Let Caesar and Egypt be reconciled.”
Caesar is dead, Cleopatra (aka Egypt) shall ‘reconcile’ with Caesar through death and the Roman people shall rejoice over it.
Octavian is referring to himself when he says Caesar. When Caesar adopted him he took the name Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus. When Caesar was assassinated he dropped Octavianus and by this time his formal name was Gaius Julius Caesar Divi Filius
@@erwin669 not really octavius never went by Octavian, which is just the shortened form of the past tense of his name. Caesar posthumously adopted octavian so he was never known as octavian during his life. As soon as Caesar died he (octavian)became Gaius Julius Caesar.
@@testchannelpleaseignore2452 Correct. But I assume to not confuse viewers, he went with "Gaius Octavian Caesar" in the show, which is kind of absurd, since it deletes his family name.
Love this scene (or just about any scene in "Rome"...) Notice how Octavian never threatens, never raises his voice- half the time he's almost whispering- and yet leaves no doubt as to who is in control here, and who will soon be dead...
Chilling . Octavian is as cold and as strong as a glacier. Those eyes ...
Octavian looks cruel, frightening. Good acting by Woods!
They were both killers, she disposed of numerous of her relatives.
It's too bad he gave up acting. He seems to be an amazing playwright, however.
@@NYUCanadian that’s a shame. I would have loved to see more of him.
Octavian and Cleo didn't have much dialog, but they said a whole lot. Amazing scene, loved both interpretations. Cleo was trying to gauge him as a man, with the traditional back and forth, he responded without hesitation, with a look in his eyes, like a hunter when he spots a massive prize buck, and was going to relish the victory.
That was a nice exchange of pleasantries :)
+Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus
You are Calligula!!!!. :D
+Yamato80 Exactly, it was Caligula's ( "little boot" ) the real and full name.
***** I HATE that name :(
Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus I am not surprised. Prof. Mary Beard once used a name - sorry - "the Emperor Bootykin"....;)
On the other hand the trivia is, that every one bearing the name of Caius Iulius Caesar in Julio- Klaudian dynasty died prematuraly. Certailny , the most famous ones were assasinated and stabbed: the famous Caesar and unfamous Caligula , the the son of Germanicus.
Gaius - the son of Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa and Julia the Elder, adopted by Augustus wasallegedly murdered when he was appointed as Augustus' successor.
Some also add Augustus - Caius Iulius Caesar Octavianus allegedly poisoned by Livia and a few ancestors of Caesar himself.
Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus you also don't like to be reminded that you have the blood of Agrippa flowing in your veins either right.
Gonna try and negotiate for mercy with Augustus Caesar? You are gonna have a bad time.
The scene after this is likely her best one of the entire series. When she let her guard down and collapsed...ugh. Brilliant.
I love it when a character brushes off attempts at seduction like Octavian.
He's probably my favourite character in fiction (with Dio Brando).
Wait...Octavian is a real person? P.S. I LOVE JJBA
Malila SU
Yes, he is.
er... you realize that fiction means made up, right? Octavian being a real person would mean he's non-fiction.
TűzesVíz
It's historical fiction. Octavian as portrayed in the series cannot be considered an accurate portrayal of the historical Octavian.
You're right, his portrayal may not be entirely historically accurate, but the character of Octavian is not a work of fiction, so I disagree that the character is fictional. It's commonplace for historical movies and shows to alter the history around the characters, yet that doesn't mean that, ie, Hitler or Marcus Aurelius are fictional characters in their respective movies.
That was most tense, politie conversation I ever witnessed. Two leaders who have nothing but contempt for each other, one fearing for her life and the other the sadistic victor. A stare as cold and calculating as any maniac ruler in history
Well, I wouldn't call Octavian sadistic, that would imply he does the violent and brutal things he does for pleasure, when in fact everything he did was politically sane and logical, and probably necessary.
i think the way they portrayed Octavian was awesome. exactly the cold and calculating personality you would imagine the first emperor of rome to have
I loved this scene in the series. Octavian knew exactly that he was in the better position to negotiate and acted exactly the way he wanted, while the seductive cleopatra knew (like Octavian too) there was nothing she could do about it this time and this was the end for her
Lol my ship is large and comfortable .
You are absolutely right from what I’ve been reading about Octavian and Rome.
While he was a jerk in regard to Cleopatra, just like when he was proscribing wealthy people in Rome, when he finally took complete power as princips, not officially emperor, he became a totally different person, ruling with compassion and common sense.
No wonder he is considered one of the greatest people in history!
Compassion? He’s a dictator who got into power though self interested mass murder
@@jtgdoctavian was based. Cry about it
"You MUST bring the children..."
To killed one of them
This actor is pretty damn good, you can hear knives rubbing together by looking at his eyes.
Fk Cleopatra. She was a bitch who tried to use her vagina to take over rome( TWICE!)
This show is truly remarkable. The actors all did a superb job, the writing was almost perfect
Ah! Augustus! You are a son of a bitch. BUT you are my kind of son of a bitch. :D
This is the son Tywin Lannister always wanted.
Hahaha that's exactly what I was thinking, he would make tywinn A proud father and unworried about the lannister legacy.
Both Octavian's were great but I LOVED the depiction of older-Octavian. Dude was stone cold but at the same time I was rooting for him. Antony's behavior became increasingly worse and by the time he was with Cleopatra he was basically irredeemable. Cleopatra was quite nasty herself so I didn't feel bad for her here. Still though if I was in her position in this scene I'd be getting chills down my spine lol.
Where can i read Marching with Caesar for free on the internet? Do you have a link?
I liked younger Octavian. He was closer to descriptions of the real Octavian. While he could be down right cold and calculating he did have a compassionate side. i.e. While in the Show he didn't seem to care, Octavian in real life was really distraught over his decision to have Cicero executed in his proscriptions especially afterwards.
@Gregory Smith You're buying into Octavian's propaganda there. If Antony had faced him on the field and won (which was uncertain), he'd still have had to do an Alexandrian-style march around the coast of the Eastern Mediterranean in order to get back to his primary power base in Egypt, giving Octavian plenty of time to recover militarily and politically. Antony had very few friends in Rome after deifying himself and the Donations of Alexandria. A naval victory, on the other hand, would have stranded Octavian's legions in Greece, and likely led to a partial or complete collapse of his half of the Roman state as soon as Mark Antony took Rome with a couple of legions from the sea.
@Gregory Smith I agree with you here, that's what I wrote in the second half of my comment. What you were arguing in the first comment I replied to was that Antony's desire to fight a land battle was 'corrupted' by Cleopatra. In reality, a land battle was simply not strategically sound, and that for both sides, the naval battle was by far the more important battle.
I love that look on Octavian at the end. He can finally see the end game, and he is quite pleased, in his own terrifying way hahaha.
That last look Octavian gives Cleopatra.. you can tell he's a very dangerous man.
The actor playing older Octavian is fantastic, his eyes are ice cold and belie the malice of his intentions. The strength of his acting is in his words, yes, but mostly just his expressions, IMO.
Fun fact: Simon Woods blinked an astonishing 12 times each time the camera was on Cleopatra
Octavians eyes: You have no idea what kind of trouble you are in
Yeah, especially in the last second of this video clip.
Watching this masterpiece to heal my eyes watching the monstrosity called "Netflix: Cleopatra"
I mean it’s ahistorical, but you’re kinda being melodramatic
@@jtgd it literally says it's a documentary you d****ss
In that moment Cleopatra knew she was doomed.
When Octavian lowers his head slightly at the end, you can tell by the murder in his eyes that he’s stopped pretending. No more decorum. No more formalities.
Vae Victis.
They got this scene so right. Even the pupils are pinpoint on each character, which shows mutual hate for each other. Awesome!
Octavian is terrifying when he “invited” her to go to Rome with her children.
TFW she realizes that if anything Antony understated Octavian's ruthlessness and complete lack of human warmth or pity.
"How to coerce like a boss" - by Octavian
I love how Octavian looks like he is about to attack/challenge someone whenever he walks into a room.
2:02 walking around with big ship energy
Cleopatra was a queen of Egypt but she was not Egyptian. She was the last of the Macedonian Greek dynasty that ruled Egypt
Rosalina sure
How Greek.Egyptian she was is debatable, but EJP her last name is Ptolemy....the Macedonian general under Alexander the great that took control of the region.
EJP he’s correct. As a descendant of the Ptolemaic line, she would have been Greek. One comment points out that incest would have damaged the line to the point of infertility, but I would assume they would have had a European or Egyptian(most likely a slave) breed within the Royal line. I think they would have made a Greek slave do this to keep up appearances, but no one can be sure.
The Ptolemies also married into the Seleucid dynasty and dynasties from across the Middle East and North Africa. There was a Roman Emperor from a Syria who was descended from both the Ptolemies and Seleucids, and Zenobia, the rebel queen of Palmyra was also likely a descendent of them. A branch of the Ptolemies also ruled as clients in Numidia for a while after Rome annexed Numidia.
+Powerdriller power The Ptolemies never married Egyptians nor reproduced with them.
Octavian was absolutely brilliant.
A master manipulator.
I just noticed Octavian didn't come before Cleopatra as a soldier nor an aristocrat. He came in just a plain, cotton senatorial Toga. She knew she was in trouble the minute she saw him. He didn't have to speak.
This boy played this part so well,. As they all did in this fantastic series ..
Context: She tries to manipulate him by telling him "I feel in you a good and honest man, I am not wrong am I"... He only responded "NO". Shee then realizes that, instead of falling into her own ego, he wastes no time. She makes advances to him very subtly and he cannot notice it because he does not feel desires and has his own Machiavellian plans in his head. She realizes that he is unmanageable, cold, intelligent and calculating with the upper hand and is several steps ahead. . They both had incredible performances
Octavians Pupils are like pin points in this scene.. He must have been on something
scrolled down to see if someone else caught this, as a former user i would put money on an opiate, pinpricked pupils with the slight redness/glassy eyes is the easiest sign to recognize before just nodding out. that said I think it put him at an advantage in this scene, so easy to feel and act superior when you actually do feel that way
As cold and "evil" as Octavian was, you can't underestimate the good he did for Rome and European civilisation in general for centuries to come. As the saying goes, "Sometimes you have to do a little evil to do a lot a good".
The concep of greater good
The dialogue in this scene is superb. So many layers.
@paddlepopkid - One of my favorite lines of the series comes shortly after this scene, when Octavian is talking to Mycenas and Agrippa about the meeting, and Agrippa suggests Cleopatra may kill herself, and Mycenas opines that Octavian "can have that effect on people." Octavian replies: "Nonsense, I was Charm itself." To which Mycenas quips (this part being my favorite): "Yes. That can be your most disheartening manner." Just superb writing and acting all through this series of scenes.
All so courteous but we can all read between the lines.
It was exactly what once made Game of Thrones so great until it fell to pieces. As saddened as I was that Rome gave us only 2 seasons, I’m grateful it didn’t become too popular (during its original airing at least) and wasn’t ran into the dirt and we get to go back and marvel at wonderfully scripted and acted scenes like this.
@@emperorreign6154 If it would have its five seasons as originally planned "Rome" would have shown even the rise of early Christianity and some other things. Unfortunatelay, the second season was shortened so they had to rush through the (slightly) fictionalized actual historical events leading to the reign of the Princeps in what he, the historical Princeps called the "Res Publica Restitutio" the "Restored Republic".
And so, unfortunately the show didn'T show how the Princeps actually became the undisputed ruler.
Namely by publicly resigning, making the then already totally loyal senate and the peoples of rome as well as the surviving aristocracy fearing a new series of civil wars.
And so, even the actual Augustus could be as cunning as he was depicted in this series.
Spoler alert!! ;-)
The senate gave him "voluntarily" and not under a visibly military pressure the offices which made him the undisputed ruler while remaining true to the Republican rules on the surface.
And if you already knew it, please take it as a little history lession to other fellow readers of this comment section.
Octavian was no simp.
"Your wellbeing is my primary concern. "
In other words:"You're my prize of war, and I'm going to enjoy parading you through the streets of Rome!"
"He's just a boy; he's no threat to me."
Yet.
What wasn't actually said was: "But he will grow..."
Saying Cleopatra was black is like saying Nelson Mandela was white.
No, like saying that Woodrow Wilson was. He was Virginia Tidewater aristocracy, so something probably snuck in, but he was far more American Indian (~3%) than black. Same with her, something probably got in, but not enough to count.
Ancient Egyptians shared no DNA with sub-saharan Africans did they not? Cleopatra had no Egyptian blood never mind sub-saharan
+Desmond able Only the Ptolemies were Greek.
All of that Cleopatra's families came from one of Alexander's companions.
@@Brandonhayhew
That would be the Ptolemaic dynasty, started by the aptly named Ptolemy.
Marc Antony: "All women are queens"
Octavian: "If she breathes, SHE'S A THOOOOT"
Chad Octavian
God I love Octavian's acting through this. All the while smiling but the eyes are screaming:
"I can, would love to, and am going to, fucking destroy you."
Cleopatra's greatest weakness, the Sigma male.
Caesar was more of a sigma. He just kept her around as a plaything. Didn't even recognize their son as his heir.
It takes a badass like Augustus to create a Pax Romana.
I wish it would show how Cleopatra fled down the hallways shrieking in terror after Octavian left, seeing through his charming demeanor and veiled threats behind promises...I admire Octavian.He is one of the most clever, charming, strategic, theatrical fox in History.
You know, I like Octavian's style.
They are almost teens here, in fact Augustus was 33 and Cleo nearly 40 when they met.
Another fact that many do not know: Cleo had four children, three with Mark Anthony were spared by Augustus and they lived well in Rome as nobles
almost teens? Octavian here is in his mid 20s and Cleopatra is very clearly in her 30s
please, check imdb
urmo345 I just did, it says, "Simon Woods", the actor that plays the older Octavian Caesar, was born in 1980 and was 27 during this portrayal. and "Lyndsey Marshal", the actress who portrayed Cleopatra, was born in 1978. she was nearly 30 in 2007.
see now? far from reality. Historical movies are almost all about glamor and not reality.
urmo345 you said that the actors were teenagers. I then made a guess to their age, then you in turn told me to look it up. which I did, proving my observation was more than accurate. what exactly does the slight age difference they have with their historical counterparts have to do with anything? it's a TV show. not a historical documentary. do you think they'd really limit themselves in terms of actor/actress availability with such a trivial matter? they were spectacular in their performances, and the show was entertaining. that's all they were hoping for. many historians and critics have praised this show for its realistic depiction of the times, when they easily could have just over-dramatized like any of the other dozens of popular productions set in this and subsequent eras. would you have preferred a long and drawn out historically accurate soap opera of tedious speeches and political manuevering? did you know that the speech Cicero gave in, "absentia" about Marc Antony which was also shown in this show was in reality about a dozen pages long?
Octavian had a steely resolve because he had been deeply hurt by the injustice done to Caesar. He never forgot that and he worked to Ensure Caesar's will is executed
Does anyone else cringe when they see people comparing glorious historical figures with characters from GoT?
Not at all. Those GoT characters are all based on great historical figures and less known ones sometimes. But still not out of place at all
There's a lot to be said about the (many) flaws of GoT but the characters (especially in ASOIAF) are so well written and like the above comment says, based on historical characters.
I refused to join the GoT bandwagon for years until forced to watch it with my ex a few years ago... now I endlessly compare history with GoT 🤭
Maybe in a way that It's pretty much upcomparable.
Yes sure both series show us political power play, with the main DIFFERENCE BEING that in Rome people shown are REAL people making decisions that will later affect millions of people's lives and ultimately NONE of them are ever going to find the BEST solution to any and all of the problems in their political game. That's because no human is capable of knowing or even imagining what consequnce their actions will have outside of very small window of time in the grand scheme of things.
(aka history is and will always be flawed no matter what because it is built by human decisions and we are without a doubt flawed creatures if nothing else)
Where as A song of Ice and Fire and/or Game of thrones (take as you will after a certain point to me they take such different turns that they start to look like alternative universes with same but different people/characters) was created as a book series by power of the brilliant mind of George R.R. Martin but that's exacly IT. It was created by one man who in the end knows EVERYTHING.. He created the entire universe on blank canvas and knows how everything's going to play out from start to finish. Everything that happens is, as is the case with every work of fiction, international everything happens for a reason, everything is planned to bring the characters and with that the reader to the ENDGAME.
Of course you can say well Daenerys made a stupid decision or what Tyrion is doing makes no sense, but it all George MAKING them do this or that for a specific purpose, where on the other hand some questionable or weird decisions made by Cleopatra or Caesar or Octavian really have us thinking WHAT THE HELL DUDE?? WHYYY?HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED DIED BECAUSE OF THAT, DID YOU JUST HAVE MY GREAT GREAT GREAT..... GREAT GRANDPA KILLED BY THAT???
With that being said I enjoy and LOVE both Rome and ASOIAF and enjoyed Game of Thrones till season 6 (what the fucking hell HBO how did you manage to kill THIS MASTERPIECE, which I will NEVER forgive you for, and leave Game of Thrones going in oh so capable hands of DnD so you could get more money. It's like leaving a wealthy but senile old cousin with the least qualified person you could find to go and get every last cent of their bank account before they die)
God I hated Antonys guts in the series. Too bad they didn't show the battle of actium better when he gets his ass whooped by Agrippa. Octavian is BOSS!
Agrippa was a real g
Oh, I loved Antony. He was cynical, fun and a good f**ker. Unlike Octavian who was a totally sick weirdo, I pity his wife
@@user-gc2ho2zo8d Bruh, octavian is one of the best if not the best ruler that ever existed tbh. I love him with every fiber of my beeing.
JOJO this is clearly a women. Don’t even bother. Octavian seems to bring bad feelings to women because he ended cleopatra. The handful of female rulers that were somewhat effective Besides the excellent British queens that ruled with great competence. Queen Elizabeth the first for example. One of the greatest queens in human history.
@@jr8573 Jesus, chill bro\sis, BTW I'm a dude, and don't take it 2 seriously, i get that it's a show and they have to develop characters in a certain predetermined path to keep it fun/consistent. I just loved Octavians' portrayal, this politically savvy kid, extremely cynical and super cunning, that's all. Although I really did hate Anthony's guts, he was itching for war, and really loved it when he got his ass kicked.
Octavius character development is one of my absolute favorites in TV history. He goes from a whiney little bitch to conqueror of the world
Reminder to everyone: Cleopatra was descended from Ptolemy. Her dynasty was Greek, not Egyptian.
One of the best series ever in a time where series were not as popular as today, one of the most expensive aswell.
Augustus radiates chad energy. Nobody can stand against him.
My baptized name is August. When I chose my confirmation name they suggested Augustine. I chose Augustus. Why be a Saint when I can be a Caesar?
Ave Caesar!
Good choice.
Lol
Boi!!!
Why be a saint when you could be the first of an Empire
The only man who could scare and defeat Cleopatra, in every way possible 😈
At this point Cleopatra had tricked Mark Antony into killing himself and hoped to win over Octavian. I'm really glad Octavian saw her for the evil being she is and wasn't fooled for a second.