The Sage's Library: Burning Wheel
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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"Have players play NPCs in each others' scenes" = instant subscribe
In terms of complex combat rules, I'm curious as to how Burning Wheel compares to Riddle of Steel.
I can't believe it! You're reviewing Burning Wheel!
My friends and I did a Game of Thrones campaign. I played a dwarf hedge knight (he was essentially knighted as a joke following a bar fight, but took it seriously) on a quest to become a landed, anointed knight and give all dwarf folk a place to live. Basically he was a human dwarf who talked and acted as we imagine fantasy dwarves, trying to make it all a way of life.
I played the concept straight and it worked AMAZING! It's like the game was made for him! Failure and hardship was his life as a dwarf. And every success made him more confident and made his critics wring their hands on how he could have done it.
This is great to hear. I'd suspected the game would work nicely with a bit more comical of a character, for whom failure is a consequence of their overconfidence.
I love burning wheel and ran a lot of it. I super agree about the tendency of the game to turn into multiple POV chapters of literary fantasy instead of ensemble play. It's my #1 complaint. But I wanna push back about the always be rolling thing. You should only be rolling for things that are important (actual stakes) -- otherwise keep the game moving! You're not rolling to tie your shoes (unless you took a 1 point minor negative relationship with a family member who stole your laces!)
I literally just bought this yesterday because it's one of Hank's few books on his shelf. Cheers from the Runehammer community
SHIEEEEELD WAAAAAAAALL!
I love the Mouse Guard RPG.I never got into either Torchbearer or Burning Wheel. Mouse Guard is crunchy enough for me. I'm more interested in lighter games, now. But Mouse Guard is so great! Even for fans of the comics its an amazing resource for the setting.
What do you think about the simplifications that were made for Mouse Guard? And have you seen any of the rules light hacks like "Hot Circle" or the "Gold Hack"?
Burning Wheel is a very good game that is very changable but it doesn't play like D&D and you need to know the game to modify it.
Secondly. The deep complicated systems like Duel of Wits and Fight! aren't for every occurance. My rule is only use them when the interaction involves a belief directly. Fight! isn't the combat system it's the epic fights during a character arc.
Third. If you make "an encounter" you are GMing wrong and you will feel like the game hates you.
Fourth. You only roll when failure and success are both INTERESTING. If one or the other is boring they get the interesting curcumstance.
Burning Wheel IS an awesome game, while at the same time being a truly frustrating game. Fun fact... if you ever want to assist someone with finding the drive to get off their unemployed rear, tell them that you will support them financially for 6 months if they will agree to sit down and read those books and GM a game. They will probably start looking for employment within 37 to 38 minutes. Again... an amazing game "concept"... but frustrating as hell to play and GM.
Sounds like a perfect setting for a solo campaign with one character. You avoid the character split up issue, and the lack of focus for a larger group.
I honestly think that the *'Players as NPCs'* mechanic is an extremely interesting mechanic out of all of them! In fact, I'm planning on using that very mechanic for a future DnD one-shot I'm GMing when we have the time.
AGREED!
Your advice about giving the PCs control of NPCs during a scene they would otherwise be doing nothing is absolutely genius!
To quote Luke Crane from a conversation I had with him years ago, "Just play the game as written!" I couldn't agree more with your take on The Burning Wheel. Beautiful books the lot of them and mechanically everything seems so well tied together, but I never ever want to GM this game again. I'd play it... with the right people. I ran it a ton, but as is typical for me, I didn't run the fantasy version. Luke had published a setting called Under a Serpent Sun. I ran that many times at game conventions on the west coast. The Fight! mechanics lead to some pretty funny situations, but it was insanely lethal to player characters.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Burning Empire. That game is a game within a game where the player characters are so high ranking in status that it's very unlikely for their characters to ever be in the same room together. It's the one RPG I know of where, mechanically speaking, the GM can win the campaign. The meta game is all about pitting the players against the GM to see if the GM can successfully invade and take over the players entire home planet.
Burning Empire is something I’ve wanted to play!
6:04 - The constraints put on lifepaths is definitely valid criticism, though it highlights something I really love about this game: if you want to break the mold you have to play it out. The game is telling you "you want your merchant to become a knight? Great! Make a merchant and write a belief about becoming a knight." The stratification of society itself becomes an obstacle for characters to overcome in play.
Interesting that you picked Burning Wheel to discuss. I am currently working on hybridizing some of the mechanics with Ironsworn/Starforged. Specifically, Lifepaths, Racial mechanics like Greed, Grief, Faith, and Hatred, Skill Levels (Action dice step from d4 for Unskilled to d12 for Master), and Obstacles (Difficulty levels instead of the static 2d10 Challenge Roll).
Believe it or not, I just received the Gold Edition (and I had to import it directly from US to Europe), knowing it would not get to my group. I instead consider it as a "relic", so to speak, a unique experiment that makes me think about what makes a RPG, an experiment that deserves to be in my collection.
Kudos for this video, and thanks for sharing your thoughts. They are, as always, insightful. 👍🏻
Nailed it with this game! I am in a BW campaign now and I am having such a love/hate relationship with it! Great system for a Game of Thrones setting!
I'd love to see you do traveller.
It’s on the list!
I’ve played a campaign of Burning Wheel and it was magical! There is something truly astonishing about a game that got me to develop a beautiful character and intentionally kill him off very early by following his own beliefs. My favorite session of any roleplaying game I’ve ever played. But in the long term the system definitely rubbed players the wrong way mostly because of how punishing it is, particularly if combat happens. Burning Wheel I think is absolutely best suited for courtly intrigue.
I GM Torchbearer 2e nowadays and I love it. It has sanded away all of the frustrating and overcomplicated things about Burning Wheel into this brilliantly fun adventure game. Best part is it has that exact middle ground between the bloody versus and Fight! rules. 4 actions (attack, defend, feint, maneuver), each side chooses 3, reveal them one at a time. The choose and reveal makes a lot more sense with a party rather than a 1 on 1 duel.
Anyway, love these games despite the occasional clunk. The stories it creates are always worth it.
Totally agree with you in TB2e.
Fantastic!
I am finally playing Burning Wheel after owning it for about 7 years. My buddy and I are playing a co-op solo campaign using BW and the Mythic Game Engine. It is working well. But BW is definitely not for everyone.
It has such a focus on mechanically driven story. But, weirdly, my biggest complaint is the WAY it is written. It is written like Luke (the author) is laying it all out. You can FEEL his voice. I’m not trying to be rude when I say this, but the book is constantly pretentious and patronizing.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve said “oh fuck you Luke” when reading it, because it feels so much like it is talking down to the reader.
That being said, we’ve had an awesome campaign with some really cool (and tortured) characters so far! So it does work! It just feels…bad.
A wonderful episode of "The Sage's Library", thank you! Never read, or played Burning Wheel, but I thought about getting into it multiple times. Still not sure about it. And I can really relate to your feeling about BW - for this kind of "awesome, but and hard to get into for me" ist FATE. Every time I read it, I think "How awesome is that?!", but every time I try to play it I am like "...wait, what?"
Burning Wheel is wicked but I think the Mouse Guard version is a better experience. I had the pleasure to be one of the playtesters on The Mouse Guard RPG and I really love that comic and that version of the system. I would love to get it to the table more often but some players have a hard time to wrapping their heads around it.
Thanks for doing this review. I am running a solo trial using the mechanics of this system, Beliefs, Instincts and Traits. The life paths seem to bring the character to life, I was using savage worlds for my initial solo system, per your first season, but it always turned into a slug fest with not a lot of character connection.
I LOVE games with built-in consequences so much, but I hate that every single thing is a roll. Half of this game sounds great and the other half sounds tedious af.
I hope you do a video on FATE one of these days!
Like you, I'm an admirer of Burning Wheel and, like you, I find it to be nigh-unplayable. It completely goes against the my quick and dirty ethos of playing TTRPGs.
I honestly think that Mouse Guard is a much more manageable version to play of Burning Wheel. It's such a shame that it's out of print and that copies of the 2nd edition go for like $125.
I haven't checked out Torchbearer, but I have heard about the different conditions that you can check off that serve as multiple pain points to the PCs (which I favor).
All in all, Burning Wheel is a great game to pick apart and apply a couple of its principles to other RPGs (like Beliefs, Instincts, and emphasizing intent and method) to supercharge its game design potential.
I picked up Torchbearer Second Edition
Burning Wheel has elements that I absolutely adore, and elements that kinda put me off. There's so much that I'd like to weak to be more to my taste, but the whole thing is so intricately put together, that it's a rather intimidating prospect, and besides, everybody always says not to.
Although I have come across recommendations to use the combat system from Torchbearer or Mouse Guard in BW; apparently that might work well. I haven't tried it, though. I haven't even tried BW as written. I'm not sure I can sell my group on this. Maybe I should look for a game that has the elements I love in a less intimidating package.
Why do all of this scream "fantasy heartbreaker" to me? I never read or played the game, but everything I hear about it reminds me the hungarian rpg scene a lot... like every decade or so there's a hungarian creator emerging from the shadows, holding the newest most innovative Saint Grail of roleplaying they just created. It's usually not as much a game as a guide to the very specific playing style their group prefers, with the rules so tailored to that style, it just falls apart if you try to add your own flavor. All those games tend to vanish very quickly as there are just not enough hungarian roleplayers to keep something so niche alive. This game looks like the same concept with a more experienced and professional creator behind it, and with a large enough audience to keep it alive through multiple editions - and that's honestly really nice to see. I don't think I will ever play it though, Freeform Universal spoiled me with how easy to tweak it to your own preferences even on the fly and I don't need more crunch than what 5e offers. Thank you for the great review, as you said, it's a controversial game and because of that it was always hard to find a summary that highlights both the pros and cons as nicely as you did.
Love how you cover all the exact games I'm hoping for!
Been wanting to run this one on one with my wife but just haven't gotten around it to yet, but am a huge fan of the concept.
I just ordered it... lol I'm going to try playing it solo XO. I think the problem is that this game is being played in a group setting, while the focus is the individual. that is why the party ends up splitting cause the are motivated to focus on self instead of the group. I get the feeling that if I want, I can use this game, literally play a witch, in my cottage, who grows herbs and makes potions and sometimes goes hunting for ingredients, and not have it all just be flavor... like yes yes I went into the woods and found the ingredients.. ok now to the fight.
I have been running/playing a very successful solo/co-op campaign that has led to some interesting areas. There are a LOT of frustrations with this game, but putting it with the Mythic Game Engine has made a great little machine to create drama
@@03dashk64 yes I got it and made a character. it's going to be perfect for what I want.. an RPG that you can solo that you can actually use your professions with mechanics..sure I wont be able to execute... duel of wits XD lol I'm absolutely cool with that. I also have the mythic gm emulator...maybe I will use it for this
@@03dashk64 I was thinking of doing this! Happy to hear it works
Yeah, I wasn't a fan of this game when I played it. I didn't like the narrative position it puts you in (feels like a third person game?). The lifepath system is wonderful though. Also, I feel like the players need to internalize the game rules to play this game, and my players don't read. I agree with this whole video.
Lol
Zoomer Roleplayer here. I loved this video, and it really helped me understand why this system is controversial! It's a difference in expectation.
What I found with Burning Wheel (well Mouseguard actually, since I did not play Burning Wheel yet), is that the mechanization of the role-play can help people that usually don't role-play too much to get into role-playing more. I'm talking about min-maxers or people that have a tendency to focus on mechanics rather than the story.
It wont help shy players, though. If somebody hates having the spotlight and would rather say no words and roll twice in a game to help the story move along, it will not help them get into roleplay, but if it's more about a lack of implications, it can help give a player a new perspective on it.
I can completely relate to your love/hate relationship with this game. I think it's both simultaneously brilliant and a hot mess all at once and you really do need open minded players to have any fun running it. FWIW, I think the tricky thing with Burning Wheel is that is seems like it wants to be a heavily mechanical game, yet it's super focused on character motivations (things not typically enhanced by being overly mechanical). The game itself is a bit of a contradiction. What I feel can help with this though is using the mechanical parts of this game abstractly when applying to the narrative. In some ways, you have to keep these things separate. Duel of Wits is a good example of this. Yes, you plan out 3 actions and reveal them one at a time - it can feel unnatural if you try to RP this real time. But I don't think that is what you are supposed to do. I feel like people approach this a bit too much like "Whose Line is it Anyway" where you need to somehow improvise your way to the end point instead of starting with an out-of-character discussion and figuring out how to RP it. Instead, look at the actions and first work out how that might play out, then RP it after you've abstracted the encounter based on the context of the narrative. Many modern games have caught onto this idea and reframed it as "Fiction First" and, IMO, I believe those games have done a much better job making this style of play more understandable. In this way, Burning Wheel was sort of the prototype for PBTA / FITD type games. Burning Wheel feels like Dune to me - there is a lot of discussion during a game which is effectively internal dialogue - way more than other RPG's I think. That can be off-putting to many, but as someone who tends to RP in 3rd person a lot, it was very natural for me. It's a game I won't likely ever play again, but it's a game I re-read from time to time because it's thought provoking and it ultimately changed so much about how I see table top RPG's in general. In fact, this game forever altered how I play all TTRPG's, even older games. I can't think of another game system I have ever read that had this much of an impact on how I engage with the hobby. For that reason alone, I have to call Burning Wheel a masterpiece.
Wow, that's illuminating. I've been working on making my own ttrpg for a couple years and I've only ever played a few sessions of D&D 5e, but watch lots of actual plays, more so now different games to get more experience in those different systems. I've specifically been looking for social mechanics that work for me and Burning Wheels has come up in those searches, but it feels too 'specific' for me and doesn't facilitate things enough for me in theory. I have too much going on mentally to feel okay playing in any group and I don't feel safe around people, so that's what my game is trying to become, like training wheels to help me get better at being around people. The experience that you described of having to plan ahead and strategize a conversation actually matches my real life experience of conversation and therefore, feels very natural to me, so I wonder if the creator lives this same way. I don't like it though and how much work it is just to have a simple conversation irl that way and I actively am trying to move away from that, hence the training wheels. This was a very informative video! I'm also loving the Simon series, although I think I haven't finished the 1st season yet.
Interesting! I ran into a similar problem with The Riddle of Steel RPG: because the rules incentivize pursuing your character's personal passions and goals, party cohesion tends to be weak at best. I love it, but struggle to play it properly
What an excellent review! I've heard of this and I've read a bit. It always seems like exactly the most amazing game I'll never play.
It sounds like a game well suited to solo play.
In a world bereft of culture and learned discourse, Sage's Library burns brighter than one of the Silmarils. 😁
You have Dwimmermount! So envious.
Ah but do you have Burning Empires? I do
In my opinion, I don't think that "giving control of NPCs for players to use while it's on another player's turn" thing works. It sounds like a good idea but, especially in character creation systems as deep and narrative as that of Burning Wheel, you become very invested and attuned with your character; Giving you a generic NPC, probably not as deep or interesting, could easily feel like a rather disappointing "consolation prize" because you don't want to get into the skin of another guy but want to be faithful to your character... plus one has to make an investment of attention and interest just to learn and interpret the history and mentality of that NPC. One does not want to be distracted controlling a random NPCs, and be distributing his effort and attention in various places, but rather he wants to focus his concentration, attention and enthusiasm on the character with whom he is committed. Additionally, agreeing to properly interpret the personalities and interests of other NPCs causes them to intervene more and do/say more things... which only makes that player's turn last even longer, making everyone else have to wait even longer to return with their own characters.
"I want my character to win"...
What i learnt... along the way of gm-ing...
The worst of the worst that can happen to a character is not death.
It is archiving their goal without then instantly cut to the end credits.
To let him have what he wanted.
The character will have his honeymoon phase, followed by the realization that EVERYTHING has its downsides.
Those goals and things behave like a soap bubble. Nice to look at, nice to run after but not good to actually touch them.
I sold my copy out of frustration. There were parts that I like but it's overall philosophy of not trusting the participants in the game to create an enjoyable experience without forcing them into procedural strait jackets was just too much for me and actually felt kind of hostile. There were some other details I disliked as well (like the armour and wealth rules), but that was the big one.
That’s interesting. I find BW gives so much control to the player that it’s hugely liberating. The GM basically has to challenge the beliefs written by the player. Maybe you mean the lifepath traits? Those can be voted off in play.
@@sanjeevshah168 No, I mean how the game, among other things, very rigidly dictates the social contract to the group rather than letting them use their own, preferred one. Now, granted, there's no way it can actually enforce it at the table, but even the attempt left a very sour taste in my mouth.
Or how the... Instincts, I think they were... Anyway, characters have activities that they are always going to be doing, no matter what. An example given was that a character might be said to be always be playing with a throwing knife, and it was in very strict words made clear that the GM is under no circumstances permitted to deny these character traits from being expressed. Meaning that if during the course of play the player characters are imprisoned and stripped of their weapons and belongings, by rules as written that one player character will still be casually playing with their knife. I find that absurd, and though obviously basically any group will overrule that as nonsensical, that is still explicitly breaking the rules of the game.
@@Thanaeon I don't have my book with me but it explicitly says that your instincts don't break reality and can be circumvented in exactly the way you describe. If your character is stripped and imprisoned their instinct to have a knife doesn't stop it from being taken from him. At that point it is probably time for the player to write a new instinct until they get the knife back. It is also important to note the player can always refuse to follow their instinct. Not sure what elements of the social contract that you think BW is trying to force on the group, but I can understand why the tone would be off-putting.
19:00 Yeah that's what I came here for... I'm studying HEMA currently and it just doesn't make any sense at all.
I never played Burning Wheel so this solution might no be applicable. Its about the choosing 3 strategy in advance for Fights and Negotiations rule. I totally agree it doesn't feel natural at all. Perhaps if you get to adjust your strategy (one at the time) in response of the other party's actions at every rounds, that might feel more natural then.
Sounds as fiddly as what I've heard about DnD 4e but with more cohesion.
So, as to the sweet spot between bloody vs and Fight! we just used BV as an extended test. The player can opt to stop and pull out of the fight (with consequences). So can the opponent. Very rarely do they go to death. If it’s a “to the death” thing and it’s dramatic, it’s FIGHT! If it’s not dramatic, it’s one roll resolution.
I can’t phantom not rolling dice for checks like that. A very charismatic paladin probably is better and diplomacy than I am so why would I rely on my real life charm and not that of the paladin?
I don’t have boulders in my yard I demand players must life to do a strength check, why would I then demand a play has to convince me in real life they’re charming and not just let the dice decide that?
I'm surprised you didn't mention the special rules for Orcs, Elves, and Dwarves. Greed, Hatred, and Grief, are all super cool.
Great Video! I love Duel of Wits! You don’t need to script, you can play round by round instead. The scripting thing for Fight! Is just for fun. I think the problem with Fight is the presentation. It needs a better layout. You didn’t mention Beliefs! That’s the meat and potatoes of the game. Dude if you want to play, I’ll teach you. I’ve been running it since 2003.
Forbidden Lands please!!!😁
Why are there literally 0 guides on youtube on this system D:
I appreciate the video. I agree 100%. I want to love the game but in practice it can be clunky. There is a bunch of ideas I have stolen for other games but for the most part the book sits on my shelf and looks pretty.
Torchbearer 2e is Luke Cranes dungeon crawler rpg where he takes every trope of AD&D 1e and mechanizes them yet he puts in the Beliefs from Burning Wheel into the game. From reading it, it reads really cool.
The game is played in phases... Adventuring, Camp, and Town. Each is specific, has its own structures and assumptions, and for anyone who likes old school D&D/OSR, these rules have a lot to steal from.
What I really like about Burning Wheel is that it lets you play medieval characters that are not power fantasy characters. If you chose play a blind beggar in Burning Wheel, then your character is actually going to feel like a poor person with a handicap.
Hey! I have three copies of BWG 😁
Love the game to bits but must admit I have never used the Range and Cover rules.
I think saying the game wants you to fail to reach your goals is a bit harsh, but I can see how it might seem that way if you’re mostly focussed on improving your character’s skills.
I think the best thing about BW is the artha cycle and how it ties in with challenging or striving for beliefs.
Failure and growth along the way are part of that, but they are almost incidental.
Here! This is the key to BW that other system don’t have. In game your knight pc wants to become a Paladin. They have to write beliefs and instincts that reflect that. They have to roleplay and take risks to create scenes that reflect that thing and the group has to vote you for Traits that would eventually mean that you get Faith the divine blessing that gives you magic powers. Can’t just multiclass and call it a day without some blood sweat and tears.
i bought the burning wheel gold and have not yet got into it, do you think it is possible to solo this if so what would you use
I love the lessons that this game can teach those coming from a gamer background as opposed to a dramateurge one. Failure and flaws make for more interesting characters. Don't get so caught up in "winning" that you loose sight of who your character is and what their goals are. Things actually happen in this game if you make a decision to go against your values. In D&D, I have player claim their character believes in this, or wants to do that, but then they act completely randomly.
Now, that all being said... Burning Wheel needs to dial it back a bit. Taking the core of it to help guide the learning process of role-playing would be as far as I would go. I don't believe I could ever actually run this game. I do, however, think Luke really hit his stride when he took these social combat ideas and redesigned them for Miseries & Misfortunes. I want to take that system and add it to every game I run.
I appreciate all these awesome things to maneuver through the Burning Wheel framework mechanism, but I really use this and the Codex as supplement material (ideas) to assist me with my solo RPG. I pick and use what I thin I can use. It's a great read, though! I can't imagine actually playing this at a table with actual people (most likely my family!). HEY, I fenced in college for a semester!
I see the One Ring on the shelf. I'd like to hear your opinion on that
This was really helpful. Thanks a lot.
amazing review, love your show
Dont let Burning Wheel put you off from trying Mouse Guard. It's a much lighter and easier system, and the world it is set in is amazing.
You almost have to treat games like this NOT as RPGs. Us OSR folks tend to avoid games where there's a skill or a roll needed for EVERYTHING! I prefer using my imagination for odd situations, but on the plus side, you do have to play Burning Wheel AS IS. That's what makes it a unique game. Decisions and conflicts are truly determined by chance. Therefore it is truly a game, and not as much of a role-playing game.
Interesting, enjoyable, and seemingly very fair review of an interesting and complex game system that has many moving parts - games within games - perhaps too many. Yet there is a lot I like about BW. You thread a tight needle with this video. My extended study of and limited play experience with BW leaves me in agreement with most of your commentary, although my play group probably differs considerably from yours as far as I can gather from your description. I have not yet tossed the book across a room, but you may be on to something productive.
Cheers!
This sounds like it could be really fun as a Solo player.
I had the same thought so instantly ordered it. I only play solo
I don’t know. A big part of the fun and challenge of BW is to have your beliefs challenged by the GM. You wouldn’t get the same experience if you were planning your own stakes.
But it could be tried to grok the system.
@@sanjeevshah168 Any good solo player should be playing like they're the GM anyway. You have to have a dramatic sensibility and want to challenge your character. I feel like that goes for group players too, honestly.
That reminds me, I have to do my taxes.
This is one of those games that I own, and I really _want_ to like, but I just can't.
Burning Wheel is theoretically one of the best systems you could ask for, but having a group play it and enjoy it is next to impossible...
This is ambivalence on a stick. 😆
An amazing game to read and ponder. A frustrating game to play
Agreed.
His accent waned rapidly
I’ve never played this one. It sounds interesting and I like some of the ideas behind it. The ‘fail to succeed’ mechanic sounds similar to pushed rolls in Mutant Year Zero and Forbidden Lands where you gain points when you take damage. Thank you for this video, there are some ideas in there that sound very good.
The Sunday Skypers and I had a fantastic time with our Burning Beards campaign. On a lark we all chose dwarves and BW delivered a rich diversity of characters.
BW is also Schadenfreude the Role Playing Game. :-D
Thanks, I've always been rebuffed in my efforts to learn about Burning Wheel be the rules themselves.
Do you have simpler, lighter rules like Into the Odd or Lotfp?
Check out torchbearer 2e for burning wheel "light".
I agree with you - I want to love this game. There are some great actual plays on TH-cam but I am hard pressed to find a group that will play it.
I like to steal the BITs part of of Character creation for other games.
Didn't exactly play Burning Wheel, but I did GM the gaiden game of Mouse Guards.
GM'ed like three sessions but I did struggle how to play or master it. Didn't help that it was my first time GM'ing ever. The hardest thing to get use to was rock-paper-scissor type of combat. Was it a horrible experience? No, not really. Would I do thing different if I had a chance? Yes, definetely. Would I return to playing this game? Doubtful. Would I use it as ruleset for a solo experience? Oh, god forbid, no!
Howdy! Thanks so much for this video. I have tried to grok Burning Wheels unsuccessfully for so long, and I really appreciate your succinct breakdown of what makes the game so complex, brilliant, and challenging.
Weirdly enough, I'd say Exalted does a better job of both social "combat", and Beliefs (Intimacies). Its just a shame the rest of the game is a nightmarish mess.
I agree 100%! Books 1 & 2 (in the one volume Gold Edition) = 599 pages, and book 3 (the Codex) is 560 pages. That is 1,159 pages to read and understand (My copy of War and Peace is only slightly longer at 1, 469 pages long). Trying to find ONE other person to read the Burning Wheel rules in order to play the game is nearly impossible (I have never found anyone wiling to invest the time). This might be one of those games where you need someone who already knows how to play the game, in order to teach the game, because learning how to play just by reading the rules is difficult to say the least.
Spent manymany hours creating characters. Incredibly fun chargen system. You couldn't pay me to actually play the game, let alone run it. Granted, I am only familiar with the first edition, so don't know what changed as time went on, but one thing I perceived is that it seemed actively scared of giving GM's too much power or choice, to the point that a long-running joke in my gaming circles is that "Bad GMs are the leading cause of burning wheel".
BTW, did you ever see Burning Sands? It was a free online variation of BW that was basically Dune
I think you need to play in a game with other experienced players and an experienced GM. Character divergence can be a problem but good GMs can help the story to come back around to the group in creative ways of challenging beliefs. I absolutely LOVE the Burning Wheel. FYI I have also been running Harn World since the late 80s.
The split phenomenon is real. BW functions with three players or less. It's a jazz quartet not an orchestra.
Here’s a thing about it’s lethality. Wear Armor! I’m running a campaign now (the Rot of Hiri Handia in the BW forums did actual play session notes) with an Elven Sword Singer and a Human Knight. They both wear chain mail and carry shields. Nothing magic. They are freakin tanks. I can’t get through their armor. I ran them in a bloody versus in a tight tunnel against a squad of were rat assassins. They took a few hits and then slayed. Then I ran them against a group of orcs which was slightly tougher but the Elf brought his unit of elf sword singers and they destroyed. Finally last fight was against insane raptors in a buried warren. In that fight the elf took a deadly enough strike that he has to rest and recuperate for the next month.
It sounds a lot like you and I have a fairly similar playing style. I, too, have been gaming since the early 80s and love a good immersive, character driven game. So much so I dived deeply into different systems in the late 90s/early 2000s (which is why I have well over 100 different gaming systems in my collection). I thought for the longest time that the so-called "narrativist" games would be the place to look for the sort of experience I wanted, but the few that I've read have always left me cold, because like Burning Wheel, they seemed to try to mechanise the game play, which broke the immersion that I was so desperately seeking. I hadn't read BW, but its name comes up a lot in various forums. I'm glad now that I never bought into it, because it really does not sound like something that would appeal in play. Thanks for saving me the trouble :)
What is your oppinion on the Advanced Fighting Fantasy system? Have you tried it? I've heard people comparing it to Savage Worlds due to its flexibility.
The first book in this series, which I never heared of before and haven´t owned.
But after I have seen this video.. in my youth I would have been hooked. Nowadays I reduced my dice rolling and wouldn´t like to let fortune decide most things.
This game sounds as if had more a third person perspective, than first person playing, if I translate it into pc gaming. If you know what happens if you fail, it changes automatically your decision. Mostly people don´t even know what happens if they succeed.
But still an interesting game, it seems.
According with your description, It seems a game specially tuned for screenwriters, ir, at least, players must have a "screenwriting" mentality to play It.
I've practiced historical fencing (ARMA / HEMA) and reenactment (SCA long ago) for years--though more a pursuit than a study lately :). It has always informed my gaming, sometimes detrimentally. What kind of fencing did you do?
love the style of your video...
thought this sounded like old school with all the dice rolls. (D3/D4) -
It was my understanding that D5 was the edition that broke free from that to allow rp.
* Anyway - thanks for the video!
Wow, you summed up my experience w the wheel to a T! I will say that Mouse Guard is much easier to grok than Burning Wheel, but it's also hyper deadly, uses the paper/rock/scissors conflict resolution, and has the fail-to-advance mechanic. =p
This is a great video. You had me laughing and talking back to you. I've got this game on the way and I'm even more excited.
One of the guys in my longest running game group has a thing for Burning Wheel. When his turn comes up, we grab out bricks. This review was a bit of feast of recognition for me! It's a struggle, it's a slog and it's a challange, but I think it was in our third campaign (might have been the second) where the game sort of fell into place. It's one of those RP table top moments I probably will remember forever, because of the excitement of that moment. Anyway, good review. Salute! (from a fellow fencer)
I've been trying to wrap my head around this game for the passed year. I really like the Roll20 character sheets that let you roll directly off of them, I think playing it with out the aid of the VTT and pre scripted macros that determine difficulties would be very clunky at first.
Oooh, love the idea of handing the players an NPC to play. Being clear about those NPC motivations and goals and bonds is a must (as a GM), and it would be so fun for me, as a player.
those opening glamour shots made me feel an awful lot better about the kickstarter rpg zine kick I've been on recently!
19:39 I've had sword fights too... Just not the ones that involve swords
Maybe make the duels single rounds rather than 3 rounds at a time. It enables you to be more reactive in your play.
I want to play BW with you! Passing around characters is a great idea and I've seen it happen!
I looked at Burning Crusade once and my soul was sent screaming into the abyss
Characters splitting off to pursue their own goals is something we did 10 years before Burning Wheel even existed, either playing Pendragon or Amber DRP. It's something I actually liked about those games...
So did we. There’s nothing inherently wrong with characters splitting up; it’s just in BW, every session seems to default to it, seemingly taking away the option.