Radar/microwave lamp interaction test. Will they coexist?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ต.ค. 2024
- A test to see whether three LED lamps with radar / microwave movement sensors will interfere with each other.
To make this test work I had to cut off the LDRs (Light Dependent Resistors) that are used to give the dusk sensing function. It's notable that in normal use the LDR will also cause the lamp to turn off and retrigger repeatedly as it can see its own light when lit and that defeats the dusk sensing function when it's dark. So removing the light sensor (LDR) will allow continuous retriggering without going out if desired. (But the lamp will trigger at any time of day.)
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Pure joy in his voice at the end. Makes me feel all tingly 😊
Makes you feel complete, like you're part of a circuit.....explains the tingling...
The title had me expecting you to microwave one of these. I am disappoint.
Nice test. I also ordered some of these bulbs to play around with :)
It is not an adapter. It is a multi way luminescent mobile of death adapter.
Broadcast1Channel yes
Death from above...
I can't believe it's been 6 years since I commented on this video!
I was about to order 3 to put side by side. Then I realized they probably won't turn on because they'll think it's daylight, as soon as one turns on.
Googled for a bit and landed back here 😅
For what I had in mind, I don't really want to to remove the LDR, plus they're a different bulb that's much harder to open.
Wouldn't be surprised if these do drift over time & temp, so might get some interference or desensitisation.
Can you easily reduce the 'on' time ? Might be fun to reduce to a second or so, and have a large qty of them spread around a space, or in a long line to make a reactive light installation
+mikeselectricstuff At the moment they're all misfiring because it's windy outside. Tree and foliage movement? The EG4002 has a clock circuit controlling the on time, so it's probably that changing the cap for a lower value would accelerate the time delay. It could be an interesting effect. And quite cheap to implement too. Here's the datasheet. www.egmicro.com/download/EG4002_datasheet.pdf
And the lamps I bought. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282239249860
I was rather thinking, would it be possible to increase the ON time. Well, apparently.. if its like changing the cap value =) Great video and interesting as always!
Clive - fleabay has listings for just the switches, search "radar sensing switch". Various adjustments for sensitivity and duration ... and that's before you start upgrading components. Unfortunately there's not an "ignore branches" setting.
I've been plundering eBay for the radar modules and PCBs. It might be possible to tweak filtering components around the repurposed PIR chip to make the units less sensitive to external influences.
Since they self mix, and are sure to drift all over the place, you would have to get two lamps within a couple Hz for them to trigger each other (or they would have to mix back enough power to cause the oscillator to go unstable)
The audio quality right from the beginning of this video is excellent with the microphone you used.
Standard iPad microphone throughout.
The sensor circuit looks at the homodyne (zero IF) output made by mixing the transmitted signal with its reflections. If the microwave oscillator runs at 5GHz then for something moving at 1m/s (like a person) towards or away from the sensor, this generates a signal at 2 x 1m/s x 5GHz / c = 33Hz (similar to the Doppler effect). So the frequencies of interest are up to a few hundred Hz at most. Anything higher can be ignored (filtered out). For a nearby sensor to generate a difference frequency of only 500Hz (perhaps within our detection band), it would have to run at 5GHz ±500Hz e.g. 5000000500Hz i.e. only 0.00001% different in frequency. The oscillator frequency is determined mainly by the mechanical layout of the circuit and by associated components (with tolerances over 1%) so the chance of the frequencies being so close is negligible. So we don't expect one sensor to interfere with another, even if we have a few dozen working close together.
Clive. do a Q&A. My question would be, how many electric shocks have you had and how bad was the worst one.
I found these in bayonet on eBay, advertised as warm white.. a 5000K warm white from my test.
Do you have problems fitting Chinese bayonet bulbs in uk light fittings? My one is really hard to twist to lock it into position, I'm wondering if I need to grind the contact screws down a bit.
Clive recreates the scene from the movie "Sneakers" where Robert Redford has to move really, really slowly. :)
damn, when I saw 'microwave' in the title i was expecting to see you testing whether running a microwave oven would affect the lights
Daniel G Ditto
In the US, the screw shell of an Edison socket should be at neutral also, But many older portable lamps have non-polarized plugs, FUN!
Clive, could these be modified to alter the off delay time, even though it does not have BIS001?
I am sold on these now. Could you provide a link or the name of the seller you got these specific radar bulbs from? Thanks.
Neat lights. I purchased a small portable light sort of like that, however this one runs off 4 AA cells. I use it in the bathroom of our Motor Home when we are camping and no 110 volt shore power is available. Wife said she needed a night light and this really does the job, it is not all that sensitive though, some times while you are doing your job the light goes out and you need to wave a hand to start her going again. Doesn't seem to eat batteries we have used it two winters now and she still works just fine with no battery changes.
I really like that lamp holder/fixture. Where di you get it?
Again Clive - Thanks!
1:09 Surely that'd be a Mexican standoff... or probably more accurately Shenzhen standoff rather than Russian roulette.
I wish I could work with electronics like this. I'd love to make an ultra stupid and annoying version of this bulb which was on unless it sensed movement, in which case it turned off.
LOOOOOOOOOOOLL
Did you see an easy way to change the sensitivity? For example by exchanging a resistor for another value or replacing it by a potentiometer?
I want to create a nixie clock that triggers the display using this style of radar sensing... does anyone know if these can be bought as modules? I would let the display run for about 10 minutes after each trigger so when I'm in the same room it will be on all the time. seems like a much neater way of extending the life of the nixie tubes than the standard clock program cycle....
At work, to label the data on our lighting products, we use the format week/year. If so, 16.11 labelled on the side of your lamps should mean that they've been produced on the week 16 of the year 2011.
There will be some effect between lights, you mean that they do not trigger each other.
The microwave oscillator on board all 3 are probably not exactly on the same freq, however the motion detector detects a change in the beat frequency from the transmitted signal and the returned signal, the stability of all 3 oscillators will be good, meaning the beat frequency from the other 2 lamps on any one will be constant, and therefore they will not trigger each other.
If you were to heat the ic, or the dro puck on one of the lamps the resulting drift in transmit frequency will probably trigger the others.
Remember the old radar / microwave technique, these metallic boxes with screws acting as inductance, some gaps where capacitors...
Looks like the Edison sockets on that adapter are US-style E26 (shallower than E27). Same issue using E27 lamps over here (e.g. Chinese LED-filaments from eBay).
I like your pink lamp cable. Where did you get it from?
eBay. It's a silicone housing with a fabric covered cable. They do them in a huge range of colours.
bigclivedotcom Thanks for the reply. I'll see if I can get a green one.
www.ebay.com/itm/332021359288
bigclivedotcom Thanks. Perfect to replace the broken fitting in my living room. 👍
I've never seen a triple light-socket adapter like this in North America (even though this one has Edison Screws). However, double light sockets are common, configured as a "Y." Two of these "Y" adapters can be used to make a fairly reasonable triple adapter.
And once again, Clive is able to improve upon their designs by removing components. I'm rather surprised by that result, actually, I would have imagined that they would all trigger off of one another at that distance.
Those lamps are harder to trigger than most feminists
EpicLPer DID YOU JUST ASSUME THE LAMPS GENDER?!?
EpicLPer oh shit
But what if they're all male? That would put you in an awkward spot now, wouldn't it?
Is there a straight forward way of decreasing the sensitivity on these style lamps? E.G, swapping out a resistor? Or is it a little more involved?
Is it possible to harvest the radar sensor in these to use them with Arduino or Raspberry Pi projects?
Yes, just tap into the output from the RF circuit where it enters the 8 pin chip if you want an analog value, or tap the output of the 8 pin chip for a digital value. For digital you'll probably want to find the timing resistor and change it so there's no remain-on behavior after triggering.
Ritey-oh. Off to eBay!
kduhtdkzrt Clive did an episode a while back where he explained the proximity circuit a bit and showed it in relation to the standard PIR circuit. In the circuit, a standard PIR chip gets it's pyro sensor replaced by the RF proximity circuit. It looks deceptively simple if you ignore the black magic of the PCB based RF inductor and tank circuit. Sorry I've not got a link for you. Happy hacking! :-)
Found it. Thanks!
kduhtdkzrt link please.?
I've run into an issue recently in which LED bulbs don't work properly with the motion sensing outdoor housing on my front porch. Incandescents work fine, CFLs work fine, but as soon as I put an LED in it, it doesn't trigger anymore. Putting it into "test" mode, it triggers fine, but that's just bypassing the ambient light sensor...
As there appears to be no screening on the cap side of the PCB do these lamps trigger on movement on the floor above the ceiling?
Assuming it senses some doppler effect, could you expect different results if the three lights were hanging from a flexible wire, such as an extension cord?
Is that a picture of Onslow at 4:58?
Bart Kuijper Doesn't everyone have a picture of Onslow on the wall?
Chozen.
Had no idea who/what Chozen was. Watched a few videos and never laughed harder in my life. Definitely wall worthy.
bigclivedotcom Haha, that's hilarious, just watched the first episode :)
Looked at Chozen for 1st time, looks really funny. Nice hook-up.
Clive are you still going to make an 'anwer to the Q&A's' video or did I misunderstand ?
If I put these bulbs in a fixture that has a closed glass globe over the fixture will the lamps still light with movement?
Sam Sheleby Earlier experiments showed that they can see through walls, so I doubt a glass globe will stop them!
I have a CB enthusiast in my neighborhood. To the point that I've had to get rid of several audio devices due to them picking up the signal from his CB and I wonder if it would end up triggering these types of lights. It's bad enough that it will interfere with wireless mice, even 2.4Ghz mice.
It will be really nice if you would make a video with good "ebay special" things that are safe for use. I've seen the video on the power probe but a video on good radar lamps / good camping light / good something else would be great. i really like watching your videos.
Thanks Clive. What did you do to your hand?
While performing the daily satanic ritual to clean his soul he accidentally hit his hand onto non-complaint chinese item and....
...nah, his work involves sticking the hands in all those electronic applications and use tools of many kind and much sharpness and all that stuff. So this just happens as a side effect.
I think it's from the continued disagreement he has with a bag of sand at the gym he goes to...
wonder if it would still work when its in a Faraday cage?
Can we have a link for the three way bulb adapter
You obviously levered that out, i was going to suggest squeezing 2 sides in the vice, and if needed squeeze the other 2 sides with plumbers grips.
Think its possible to impair the detector to reduce its range way down?
Loving the video's keep it up!
I'd suggest that the reason they seem to be replacing PIRs is they'll work in an enclosure that's opaque to 10um IR.
Turning the old issue of whether these are true Doppler or just sense a change in the RF field, you'll need to trace the cct at the output end of the amplifier chain to find out.
They work the same way as microwave door openers. They detect the peaks and nulls of the reflected rf beating with the transmitted signal as the multipath reflections change in the room.
Depends if you get the one with real dusk to dawn that detect sunlight instead of any light.
Could you try and see if it runs on 12 (14.4 max) volt please? That would be really neat!
I suppose it wouldn't be hard to swap the driver out for one of the standard 12v ones.
*****
Perhaps, but I was just wondering (and still am) if it could be ran without a driver on 12 Volt (car battery)
It would be good if it did, but I'd be surprised if it ran at a decent brightness.
have u tried to cove 1/2 the outer slots to make it directional censoring
If only radar lights weren't sensitive enough to work through walls, and had better field adjustments, they'd be a truly viable alternative to PIRs (which do suffer from setting each other off in close proximity) for exterior security applications. I had tried radar lights for mounting on exterior of my home, and they would trigger if you walked on the interior side of the wall from which they were mounted.
You could line your walls with lead.
Paul Sengupta Never thought of that. Might be good idea, I'll ring up the drywall guys and see if they can open up some walls...
Would these bulbs work on 12v DC from a car battery?
Aaah I was disappointed thought you got a microwave sulphur lamp
690v fluctuation tingles 😂
Usually with products like that, 16.11 would mean week 11 of 2016. Standard datecode used for all products in my store from the producers. :3
Hi Clive Im looking for a led bulb which can be converted easily to 12v by bypassing the driver unit, does such a thing exist?
Most of the classic 3W lamps have a current limited driver that puts out between 9 and 12V depending on the combined forward voltage of the LEDs. You can usually get most LED lamp styles in 12V versions.
Thanks Clive love what you do, keep doing it :)
Any idea what radio frequency it uses for motion detection?
what is the point of having a light and motion sensitive indoor light? it could work in a kitchen or maybe bedroom but seems strange overall.
The assumption is you don't need lights in the day, so the LDR stops the motion detector turning the light on when it isn't needed.
edit: but yes, I see - if it was a room you were going to sit in for a while, having to move all the time to keep the lights on would be very annoying.
Can they be used as the lamp in your microwave oven?
Can these be modified for 120v? I like the idea, but can't find ones that will work for 120.
This one had a universal style switching supply in it. I would have thought it would work on 120V.
I did not realize that. Initially the only ones that I could find that were explicitly stated as 120v were $20+ and gave up there.
I've put three from a different type in one lamp and I got a light show. They trigger each other.
I'm just curious, but would a running microwave trip the lights?
Probably not, a microwave oven has metal and a faraday cage blocking most of the microwaves. The lamp is also likely tuned for a very specific frequency.
Hi Clive, could you take apart a scientific calculator? I think that would be interesting!
im sorry to have to ask but what does LDR stand for?
Pat P Light Dependent Resistor.
Pat P Light Dependent Resistor.
Pat P In short a resistor that changes its resistance based on the brightness of the light thats directed to it
Obie Rice oh ok thanks.
Is there any way to increase the time delay before they turn off?
every moth in the garden sets these off... gone back to pir lol
have you posted a vid showing the reverse-engineering of the 3W driver? can anyone provide a link? if you haven't, perhaps others would be interested as well?
It's a very standard design based on a Bright Power chip. There's not actually much to see. It's been heavily integrated into a single chip to use a simple two winding transformer.
Do these also sense through walls? (I think that makes a moiton sensing lamp rather pointless.)
I don't think they are omniscient.
Jason Taylor
No-one did. On the other hand radio waves can pass through walls...
I work with radars that can share an actual antenna. There is need to tell them they are sharing an antenna at all. The simple fact that the signal timing is so unlikely to every happen at the same time combined with the average filtering, there is no reason they cannot coexist on the same antenna as well. You should try to wire these together on a single antenna.
I wonder if these would play havoc with WiFi b/g ? I guess 'a' should be ok at 5GHz.
Now you *have* to make a video of those lights getting cooked in your microwave now, followed by a post nuke functionality test where I expect some sparks, crackles and pops to occur.
i wonder if they will ever turn off if you have neighbors close by
do you know clive that the clever people can now record sound being relayed through the led chips and encode it..so if you have a led downlight in the kitchen at night and are having a conversation someone pointing a led recording device can listen in.like a boom mike but a led signal decoder..there must be something in the frequency recording the peaks and troughs..so now they dont even need to bug your property.
Chris Fuller They'd have to get a modified light in your house though. Surely the way that works is to modulate the light output using a microphone. Just replacing a radio transmitter.
That's usually the unit that bounces a laser (infrared) off your window to detect the reflected modulated light.
That only works on people with aluminium foil wrapped over their head.
"relayed through the led chips". Of course. You're gonna have to do some work to make that make any kind of sense.
ah yes i must expand..apparently they can record video images through led lights...not sound..lol thats been around decades..apparently when you break the led beams they reflect and leave an image that can be recorded by a receiver..
i've said it before and i'll say it again, rf pcb design is dark wizardry
Where can i get the 1 to 3 adaptor from? Would prefer it to to be BC to 3 BC
It's tricky finding the multi-way BC adaptors.
LEDs in series-parallel fed by a constant current driver will fail faster. The first chip or connection to fail will make the others share more current. Don't bet on "50,000 hours".
perfect to use as garden light
If you had a long path the lights would as you walked along.
Unfortunately they no sold any more.
I must be living under a rock up here in Alaska I didnt know some LED lights had built in speed traps
I wonder how the Chinese decide these power ratings. Do you think they'd give the apparent power instead of actual power, or is it just completely arbitrary?
they take what it actually is and try to make it sound 50% "better"
TRIGGERED
How long is the "on" interval ?
if you look at the video time it goes from 4:27 to 4:45 which is 18 seconds
Yes I see that now, it seems a tad short to me, Thanks
How long are you going to stand perfectly still?
Release the Schmoo-thing capacitor!
And another time where the "polarized" plugs and sockets do more harm than good. I don't see how defining one contact to be neutral makes anything safer. You have to rely on the fact, that everything has been wired correctly. Devices with a Schuko/Euro-plug are generally built assuming all contacts to be live. This includes eddison sockets, where the rim is higher so there is no way you can touch the thread while you try screwing in a bulb.
I wonder how many of us Americans die from touching plugs or screwing in a lightbulb, or God forbid, using an electric shaver in a bathroom.
Do we know the frequency these things run on ( rf frequency).
Graham R Dyer possibly 2.7g
Um...Dangerous.
How about a link to the supplier?
Or, a little tape over the LDR, much more reversable :)
4:27 to 4:45 the lights were on, that is 18 seconds, what a random number why not 15 or 30 seconds?
Oscar Thorpe If it's not important to get a particular time, it's often easier to program the controller to count a certain number of clock cycles than try to get a certain number of seconds. So then to make things even easier, they pick a nice, round number to count to - in binary. So just like how people are never sure if a kB is 1000 bytes or 1024, you end up with a timer that goes for some weird amount of time because it's good enough.
I'm just always going to assume the Standards Institute is in cahoots with the storage media cartels....stealing our bytes, 24 at a time.
What happened to your knuckle?
I'd quite like to test how these affect 2.4 Ghz WiFi. I might get some to mess about with.
I'd say it's unlikely to interfere with Wifi. These typically operate at 2.7GHz.
St3venAU I agree with this, channel 14 doesn't get anywhere close and the devices would use more robust modulation with slower speeds to deal with it. channels use 20MHz of bandwidth so youd have to get within 10MHz to cause any interferance and within 20MHz if it was in 40MHz mode. 2.4GHz is crowded enough dont add to that.
Those adapters are so dangerous. I dismantled an E27M-->3x E27F adapter (similar to yours) and the centre pin was soldered to the outer ring on the 3 outputs. I found the same with E27 studio lights from China. Some were live switched and some were neutral switched with the neutral on the centre pin. Really bad engineering and soooo dangerous!
quantum bulbs. you can't observe them without changing their state:)
Hmm, maybe I should get a few of these and stick one in the bulkhead light on the uncle's house rather than fanny about with the already dodgy enough wiring (whoever fitted it took the lighting ring main outdoors to the bulkhead light!!) to fit an LED floodlight........
You can take lighting off the ring main, but you must use a fused spur to protect the cable.
bigclivedotcom
I'd love to correct the wiring, but, it's poking out the side of a flat-roof extension, with no access to the cabling (presumably locked away in the ceiling) internally to fit a fused spur, and as it's rented, I don't think they'd be too pleased with me ripping holes to fix it, even though their insurance is probably already void due to the rather poor wiring in that house... :S
@bigclivedotcom I just came across this guy building a clock. th-cam.com/video/B8Y146v8HxE/w-d-xo.html He builds this out of brass and the machining skill is so amazing. I'm not related anyway to him, but just seeing it, makes me go like wow the patience and skill. It is a series as he goes really into details. But wow it amused me all night. It's like "analog" porn. Hope you like it. Just wanted to share this with you. I was really surprised the precision that was used. That clock, looking at the work, is probably priceless.
maybe the lamps need to warm up first. Besides, ain't less power draw better?
What is the name/model of these LEDs?
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282239249860
Cheers!
you can also get standalone modules like this one:
www.ebay.com/itm/122150370437
the day sensor hax works for my ebay type thanks
i also ordered similar lamps, but with 9W, they are just using 5W, but 9VA. so maybe the chinese try to cheat by mixing up VA and W
....... Stereo ? Had to pause this and fix my left front speaker, didn't want to be soldering on my Saturday morning.
(and the next video is Mono, so I can't enjoy the benefit of my work).
Check your surround sound settings. The mono audio should be coming out both speakers.
Is there any situation where such lighting is not practical?
Cosmo John Reptile lamps...
Wyvern if you stop moving for a while and the lamp time out, it shuts off
Cosmo John
Exactly, which makes it unpractical for reptiles.
Let us know if you ever manage to decipher the mysterious Chinese watt.
For led lamps it is about 0.3 to 0.5W per chinese Watt according to my experience.
Rolf R Bakke is that an actual standard like how every company has its own Kilobyte compared to Kib?
SHMOOthing capacitor?
Keep your stick on the ice.
"schmoothing" capacitor :D