It is a running joke between me and my friends that gothic is the most german game ever, for the same reasons you stated. First thing you do in skyrim? Slay a dragon. First thing you do in Gothic? Get a fucking job. Love it.
It is a runnjng joke in Poland too. It is the most Polish game made in Germany. If you say that you don't like Gothic. It means that you are not true Pole. That's why I have bought It on Nintendo Switch. And never played It.
Skyrim: to maintain the fantasy idea of rugged individualism, the world bend over backward into a nonsense pretzel to let you ignore all social norms. Gothic: The only reason you're not filling form in triplicate to enter town is because forms haven't been invented yet, be thankful.
My brother in Innos... When you said, "This video will be more emotional and personal," I didn't expect to see a 45-minute lecture in the form of a video essay about game design with dozens of examples AND relevant clips of gameplay throughout.
My favourite part of entering Khorinis is that aside all of the options you listed, it's possible to run around the city walls, avoid a few more dangerous animals, climb a cliff, jump into the sea and swim inside, Lares congratulates us on our craziness and we get 400xp bonus
Don't forget Lothar going "WTF!?" at how he hasn't seen you pass the entrance because you got around the guards. Of course that means possibly missing out on XP after speaking to Lares and then meeting Lothar if you had the idea of how to pass through from Lester's advice.
35:12 - Gothic 2 players will know the UTTER TROLLING of the level designer to place that Innos Statuette right there on that table. Before Witcher 3 with its "you try to talk to NPC and you light a candle instead", we had "You try to talk to Hagen, and you get your ass beaten into a pulp for stealing that goddamned statuette".
@@Revanchist-PL Strange. Was that a part of original game or did it end up a patch? I distinctly remember getting my bones kicked in for the first time I accidentally picked it up, and avoided it ever since like a plague.
you can take if you are milita, paladin or mage. but that also allows you to steal pretty much anything in the city, the castle in the valley of mines or the monestary.
True, there is also Enderal which draws a lot of inspiration from the Gothic formula, but has some of the empowering, core bethesda-like gameplay aspects to it, albeit toned down some notches, story and writing was great in Enderal too. Highly recommended for anyone that enjoys both these games.
This is why me, a Gothic fan stopped playing Skyrim after a few hours, and only picked up the game again 5 years later, when the Requiem overhaul was made.
What amazing about these games is how familiar they force you to get with the map. I can play Geoguessr with Gothic 1/2 map and Risen map. There are so many open world games that might have lots of "stuff" to do, interesting ways to exploit the environment (e.g., parkouring in Assassin's Creed), but you quit the game and barely remember any of the landmarks. Gothic will make you learn shortcuts and monster areas to avoid. Among other things.
I haven't played the game in at least 5 years, but I could describe the path from the old camp to the swamp camp and many other locations. I can't do that for any other game, even ones I played for a longer time and more recently. Playing Gothic again is like visiting the town you used to live in. It's magical. I really should replay it.
@@zuiop9993 Yeah, it's true. But Gothic really forced you to memorize the landmarks because you had neither fast-travel nor a GPS. You could buy a map, but it was exactly that, a map. And you'd be running back and forth between major locations a couple of times. I still remember the tiny wolf forest that was between the old camp and the mine because it was a scary shortcut but it was literally just a small batch of trees.
Oof... So the only remaining significant German game series is Anno? The German game industry looked so promising 25 years ago, but somehow never managed to grow beyond Gothic, Anno, and settlers. Now we can just look sadly at Poland and Sweden and dream about what could have been.
Alright TH-cam algorithm, what have you got for me today? Longform highbrow commentary about a series I've never played, from a creator I've never heard of, in a totally different region to all my other viewing interests? Sure, deal, I'll watch that through. And subscribe for more.
All so called "eurojank" aside. When Gothic 1 came out, in my eyes a small german developer did what Origin had aimed for with "Ultima 9" and failed. They put you into a breathtaking, threedimensional fantasy world, that felt real and alive.
>They put you into a breathtaking, threedimensional fantasy world, Then cut off your hands and forcefully weld on rake-like prosthetics. Gothic controls should be categorized as a Gestapo torture implement.
It's arguably even more polished and well designed than the other ~2001 RPGs Morrowind and Arx Fatalis. Even though I really loved Arx Fatalis and I've a sweet spot for TES3, these games will never be a "classic" for me like Gothic is with all its technical revolutions. The fact that they've solved the "Escort quest problem" over 20 years ago, where others STILL struggle is crazy. Additionally you can easily play as another character with Marvin-mode and pressing O while you look at somebody. This implies that even the player is just "one entity" code-wise. To think this a bit further: it's not a huge step away, that other NPCs also have quests and do these on their own and live an actual "life" etc. because you can see that the journal is unique to the specific character. I still have to play through Ultima 9 though... even though the controls are horrible, I think that I could kinda enjoy it :D
Pirahna bytes had a problem understanding what made their games good. They just tried upping the scale over and over, without adressing the real flaws. A sad end to the studio, but they were at fault.
I know it's been mentioned, but for anybody wanting a more Gothic-like experience, try Skyrim Requiem. Even better, a Wabbajack modlist with it, because Requiem is hard to install properly.
That's like how in Daggerfall you could be taken to court if you did bad things. You could fight it or accept the punishment for your actions. Also gold had a weight to it. Making it that one needed a bank account. Or if you have lots of gold to take out you could get a letter of credit. That was always pretty neat as well. The level of realism that went into some older games.
This popped up in my recommendations, and five hours later I've watched all your videos. Thank you for filling this dark day with things to think over, when it would have otherwise been filled with things to brood over.
It's going to get worse before it gets better. Speaking of collectivism versus individualism, it's best we strap in and stand up, lest the better days _never_ come
It’s one of the better video essay channels for sure, no bloated run time with a clear subject and arguments backed with examples. There are a LOT of channels that could learn from this
In Poland the Gothic series was EXREMELY huge. In the 2000's every kid played it, it created the whole internet culture around it with thousands of TH-cam parodies. I heard about Gothic way before I learned about The Elder Scrolls. It's still a very beloved game and there are studios which make high quality mods and remakes. The Polish voice actor of the main character became a well known voice actor thanks for this role. Duh, I wholeheartedly believe that the Witcher developers played Gothic as teens/young adults too and it highly influenced them to make their own games.
The worldbuilding was fantastic. Shame that Obsidian let Josh Sawyer to jerk off to his boring blandfest that were Pillars, because it was obvious that the next game would be a huge flop because how poorly received the first game was with it's core audience, instead of putting their money into further development of Tyranny and it's sequels.
Gothic had so much influence in Poland, that even been mentioned by the Rebel Wolves (devs who work on The Blood of Dawnwalker) They said that they want players to feel something closer to Gothic than Skyrim.
@@soheil-slvt Yeah. You can read in a lot of polish articles that CDPR was taking inspiration from the Gothic series in terms of atmosphere and simulation of the living world. They fully implemented it in Witcher 3. As a Pole and a fan of both Gothic and Witcher games i find it really cool!
Drova - Forsaken Kin? Released last year and it's practically a top down version. I felt like a kid again playing gothic, it was amazing. Anyway, cool video! Makes me wish I spoke german to see what you mean about the original voices/writing
Was coming to the comments to mention drova. Super Gothic inspired by its general feel, obviously the gameplay is different as its a top down isometric vs an over the shoulder 3d. But it hits the very Gothic feel. Only complaints I can lob its way is that the 2 factions don't really make the playthroughs feel that different. And that the progression cadence feels off, but its something they've tried to address since I played adding an additional armor into act 1. As if youre like me and many others you'll spend 15 hours in act one then get through the other 5 acts in the next 15.
I always look for games to scratch the gothic itch. First one I wanna mention is obvious, but extremely good: Chronicles of Myrtana: Archolos is a Gothic 2 mod and I find it does exactly what we needed as both a straight injection of more gothic while also developping some core gameplay concepts from gotchi 2 further, further immersing you in a world that now hast you scrounging up basically EVERYTHING to craft and cook into more valuable things, and its city is so much bigger than khorinis too! Second one I am currently in the process of playing and its the isometric action rpg Drova: Forsaken Kin - its explicitly gothic inspired and so far, in the early parts of the game, captures the feeling of survival in a rough wilderness and also the social relevance of the factions within its world.
Drova was cool, but it has zero replayability for me. The pixel graphics are very pleasant to look at (especially the lighting), the exploration is cleverly augmented with the right-click focus mode, and the music is mostly atmospheric and fitting. It also rarely gets stale. But the best thing in this game is the combat. It's not clunky at all, and very well designed around the usage of focus-generating throwables and other items. You really feel the advantage if you allow yourself to actually use your arsenal. Best of all, your enemies also use them, so you have to be constantly on guard. Very satisfying and I'd love it if there was even more of it, like more arena fights and bandit encounters. But the story is simply boring, the characters are mostly forgettable (with the exception of very few) and the exploration rewards are often underwhelming. Sure, you will find a good weapon sometimes, or a new (most likely useless) skill, but most likely your reward for venturing deep into the dangerous wilderness will be an old axe, some herbs and vendor trash.
I know you've only listed a few of the ways to enter Khorinis, and it wasn't meant as an exhaustive list, so my post isn't meant to be "umm akchtually", but rather a praise of the developers' attention to detail: - You can actually climb the city wall in a certain spot. - You can descend into the ditch next to the first gate, go around the town wall, and from the other gate you go up the cliff to a lighthouse, and jump into the sea. From there you can swim to the docks. If you do either of those things, the game very much acknowledges it by giving you a special dialogue from Lares (and 500xp reward). Iirc there's also a special dialogue from Lothar ranting about not seeing you enter through the gate he stares at, and that the guards at other gate have express orders not to let unknowns in, and that he'll have to have a word with them, lol. And also a little goof that buying Leather Armour at Orlan's tavern lets you get into the city with no questions asked. You know... the armour that many bandits and thieves are wearing (but to be fair, also hunters, so I guess it still kinda works). I absolutely love game design bits like that.
@@wiener_process Yep, there's no reason to enter town at all unless it's to join the militia. Of course, most people don't know this on their first playthroughs. You can join the mercenaries or mages.
That was also what I liked about KC:D! Kind of the only thing I really enjoyed about the game, and I really liked how you categorized the "lone frontiersman" archetype as being distinctly American. Because, yes, yes it so much is.
There's a similar archetype in the Robinsonade. All the points about industriousness, ingenuity and taking care of yourself are there, but... it also tends to go out of its way to see the social isn't rejected, but unavailable (and if possible, restored ASAP), and the _problems_ with being left on your own are downplayed a lot less (though the protagonist is still _incredibly_ lucky, of course :)). The take away is generally that the whole thing was a valuable adventure... but also very much something you do _not_ want :D
KC:D is very rewarding insofar as when you DO accomplish some kind of independence and such, but generally speaking at best most characters will be surprised and confused, and at worst hostile and suspicious - to be an independent woodsman is to be a criminal, a poacher, a thief, a bandit. You are sworn to serve your lord and therefore your community, what else can people assume you're doing out there other than weird stuff?
I am greek yet my teen years were filled with Gothic 1, I still remember being 14 and going home after school, playing that game on the brand new laptop I bought from working all summer as a server. Man, those were the days! Gothic is why I love rogue/stealth/lockpicking classes in the first place!
I think, this video surprisingly helped me to figure out, what my problem was with Baldur's Gate 3. I ahd a great time with BG3, becaus eit's a brilliant game, but always, when I'm playing it, there is a feeling of missing something. An I think it's the missing of a true collectivist experience. BG3 has all these conflicts in all three acts, where you can pick a side, betray your allies, make choices, all the good stuff, but because it's also a game about exploration (because it wants to capture the oldschool dungeon-crawling) it lacks consequences. In the beginning of act 2, there is the quest, where you escort a caravan of bad guys, to infiltrate them. When the caravan is ambushed by rebels, you have the difficult choice to either kill the rebels or blow your cover. But if you side with the rebels and make your way to the fortress of the bad guys alone later, you can just lie to them and enter as if nothing happened. And I just miss the harshness, whre the game tells you: "Ok, you made these guys your enemys, have fun storming their fortress". It's this whole beautiful world with all its consequences and factions but they are all designed around you.
My problem with BG3 was meeting the druids right near the start. They're vile racists, at best, and no sensible approach to that is available, the next best thing, simply killing them, is heavily discouraged. I don't enjoy games which require me to sell my soul to play. Turning the game off is always an option.
@@ailithtwinning6806Huh? But they’re, not. What? And no, slaughtering a group of people is not the most sensible approach. Did I, what? There’s some racial tension but the druids themselves aren’t racist just y’know seeing an oncoming horde of evil, decide to lock off the grove from it, and dealing with a refugee crisis with limited resources ain’t great lmao. “Selling my soul”, what?
@@ailithtwinning6806 Heavy spoilers for act 1. Kagha is a puppet for an isolationist group of druids known as the shadow druids. You can uncover this and confront her resulting in you either killing off the shadow druids and talking Kagha into not being a racist or you can just outright kill Kagha as well and leave Halsin in charge of the grove. In either case the Tieflings are allowed to stay however long they want to.
Some recent games in this vein i recommend: Colony Ship: A post-earth roleplaying game Drova: Forsaken Kin Roadwarden All three have significant non-individualist components and require making major social choices as part of the critical path.
Colony Ship i think kinda stuffs it up, your character has no place in the world other than the fact they are a gun for hire and their connection to any of the factions is tenous at best along with the fact that they can make a unilateral decision to land the ship immediately (even if its ill-advised to do so) While ive only done one ending, the Brotherhood ending, nothing that happens from the brotherhood quests make me *feel* like im a part of the faction. Its not like the firemage quest line Crocodile describes or how in gothic one there were genuine societal rules you had to follow that werent just the standard "dont commit crime" ones (and in gothic one certain acts were no longer considered crimes, like randomly attacking people, the real consequence was getting decked if the person you were attacking paid the protection money.) Colony ship just has a story about ideology and its effects on their respective populaces and an honestly shallow one at that. The neutral monks and the mutants being a part of the same coin, where critical ship duties seemingly supersede "ideology" even though the Monks are trying to keep everyone alive they refuse to broker any real peace(and in fact nearly ruin a chance at peace when you the player allow one faction to come out on top), and the mutants are seemingly ostracized for no real reason other than "ew mutants"
Your writing is outstanding, especially for someone who's mother tongue isn't English (just as it is the case with me)! Du hast soeben einen neuen Fan gewonnen. Ein Glück, dass mir dieses Video vollkommen random in die timeline gespült wurde.
Risen 1 was great, the only problem were the later chapters where you had nothing to do. Which sadly mirrored Gothic 1. Oh, and in Gothic 2 you also had the option to go around the city walls towards the lighthouse, jump down from a cliff and swim to the harbor for some nice XP bonus. Lares even had a voiced reaction (""I must be crazy, what are you doing here? Did you SWIM here?"). I know it's not a secret nowadays, but I was pretty happy when I discovered this over 20 years ago. The game always rewarded exploration :)
The first chapter in Risen 1 was great and after that everything else felt progresively rushed. To be honest having a fantasy game in a medditeranean setting felt like a breath of fresh air.
Road-Warden I think handles this pretty well (still room for improvement, but it does pretty well) To do your job (the main quest, which all side quests in some way tie in to) in game you have to work with people, interact with them, cooperate with them, deal and make deals with them. (and they don’t cozy up in fifteen minutes, it takes time and effort to build genuine trust) This is reflected narratively too, through the bits and pieces the PC hears of the one who came before, as well as through certain events that can/have take place. Even the endings reinforce the point of being but part of a group.
Oh damn, somebody else has played Roadwarden. That game is great and you can legitimately grow to love some of the characters and communities as a whole with their quirks, the sense of community it gives you is almost unparalleled, the only other time I remember caring so deeply about a whole collective of characters in an RPG was the group of Tieflings in Baldur's Gate 3, which was sadly done a little bit dirty in the third act with how few interactions they had compared to the previous 2 acts, where they were beginning to feel like my extended family
waitaminnit... The "Cloud District" is just the Jarl's castle??? I thought it was in like some other city that wasn't technically in the game. It's supposed to be a whole ass "district," isn't it? Not just a single castle... I have 1200 hours in this damn game.
@@EllaKarhu If Whiterun itself is an entire castle it would be pretty large compared to most historical castles. Not very defensive at all though, like all cities in Skyrim.
The gist is that the cloud district was intended to be larger and feature actual houses, but that was never implemented in game. This is beyond the whole "this is a scaled down version of the real place in setting" excuse. There was an intent to actually implement more stuff, it just never happened for whatever combination of reasons.
i'm 5 minutes in and your style of commentary and delivery are so smooth. You are a great story teller with just enough flare to be engaging, but not overwhelming or cringeworthy. Thank you for your awesome work!
This reminds me of a conversation I've had with a friend when I was a child. I was playing Morrowind those days and they were playing Gothic II. They told me that you could only wear certain armour in certain social classes which confused me to no end as someone who had basically only played RPGs like Morrowind or J-RPGs. (Bin nebenbei in den 90ern geboren und habe Gothic noch nie gespielt, die Staatsbürgerschaft ist also hinüber :( Angesichts der anstehenden Wahlen ist das vielleicht gar nicht so tragisch...)
@@crocodilegambit Ah, die "Willst du Krieg mit Russland sofort oder in ein paar Wochen" Wahlen. Viel Spass dabei alter. Wenn die Gruenen mehr Braun sind als die AfD, stimmt die Welt nett mehr. Bleibt nur die Rote Milf Fraktion ;)
This is the first time I've run into your channel. Very good stuff! You're eloquent, you have a very pleasant voice, the humour is dry, the script is tight... for someone who enjoys video game essays, you are just about the best thing to be watching at 2am when I'm under no obligations to do something the next day.
2:07 IDK what you mean I've got my copy right here, funnily enough that exact same version. I am however still missing my copies of Fable, James Bond Nightfire, Pokemon Gold and Tekken 3 if you still have those lying around somewhere.
My interpretation is that they never understood what originally made them successful, so they just kept doing all of it in hopes it would simply work again someday.
Yeah, I bet it was an accidental success. At first I thought it's a shame that they have closed but then I realized they were making the same game over and over again for 20 years... so good riddance.
@@etienne8110 Honestly, I liked Risen 1 for what it was. The first game they've made after losing the Gothic license and some troubled time as a studio with their dispute with their former publisher. It was very much a worse rehash of Gothic, but I had hope that improvements were coming... And then everything went downhill from there.
@Xalantor i have like no memories of risen 1. Risen 3 is the one i played the most recently, and it was just garbage. It felt like a cheap imitation of gothic. Despite the better engine and graphics, the power levelling, the story and factions just weren t enticing. At least to me.
Only your fourth video in four years? Absolutely criminal. Your comedy is impeccable sir. I truly hope I will see more from you in the future, cause I think you got talent.
I'm impressed by how clearly you speak when your tongue is so firmly wedged in your cheek. 'Hopelessly pretentious' or not, this is very agreeably delivered. Wonderful.
One of my favorite quest caveats in G2 is that mercenary who challenges you to lift his axe, to gain his respect. Once you do, the proper choice is actually to... beat his ass with it, otherwise he'll cheat you. In a way, the sheer weirdness of that logic is, conversely, what makes Gothic feel more like an actual world, in comparison to Skyrim's happy-go-lucky attitude that shatters the whole illusion of believability. Also, as a Polish person who both knows Gothic and can identify the Settlers "Yippee" sound, does that make me a honorary German? 🤔
Man, it was settlers!! Thanks for scratching that itch for me, I knew I've heard it before so any times, but couldn't say what it was - first I thought it was the imps from Dungeon Keeper, but those have a more shrill voice and more echo.
Do I have zero knowledge of either Gothic or Skyrim? Yes. Am I going to watch 45+ minutes of a German man explaining their differences? Also yes, apparently, because he's very good at what he does! Only 2k subs?? Criminally underrated! Also, I salute your solid citations at the end of the video! And the music editing at the very end! Peak
So INCREDIBLY surprised you only had like, 2k subscribers! Your narration and voice over and insight is at the level I'd expect of people with hundreds of thousands! Excellent work!
Funny to think that Morrowind followed closer the Gothic formula, where you had to acquire social power and "convince" people to recognize you as the Nerevarine. It's so different from Skyrim. But now I know why I miss Morrowind-like (and Gothic-like) games.
Wow... this is only the first video I've watched from you (couldnt resist not to check out a new gothic videogame essay review :D) and I am happy to stay here and check out even the other stuff you have. You have a really soothing voice :D Btw I strongly advise you to play KCD II when it comes out and all in all everyone who sees this comment
The part that interested me the most about this video and Gothic 2 is the way the outfits are actually tied into the gameplay and dialogue. As a solo-indie dev myself, the core mechanic of my game is built around disguises and taking on different 'roles' when you change what you are wearing. I got a lot of my inspiration from the Hitman series, but not I have another game to look into. How you earn the ability to look, and as a result be perceived by society in certain way seems like an untapped gold mine for making story based games.
Playing Gothic 2 right now for the first time. 20 hours in and I’m still exploring every bit of the map and goofing around in Chapter 1. I love both Skyrim and Gothic 1, but I can’t deny how ahead and peak Gothic is. Great video!
Ein wirklich klasse Video, mir waren viele der Ähnlichkeiten zwischen Skyrim und den Gothic Spielen noch gar nicht richtig aufgefallen. Ich sehe es praktisch genauso wie du, dass ich beide Spiele aus unterschiedlichen Gründen genieße und ja, bei Gothic ist da eine große Portion Nostalgie dabei (auch ein bisschen schwer die nach über 20 Jahren nicht zu empfinden...) Das ist das erste Video, dass ich von dir gesehen habe aber ein Abo bekommst du auf jeden Fall schon von mir, mach weiter so.
The Player Character was only JUST caught at the start of the game and his "crime" was being at the wrong place at the wrong time, by the time they got to any semblance of civilisation it was minutes away from being wiped off the map. Why in the world would the Whiterun Guards be looking to arrest you upon first contact, even more so when at this moment the Jarl has been doing everything in his power to remain completely neutral to the civil war
Add on to that, Balgruuf believes you because his housecarl had informed him beforehand of talk of a dragon attack, your words just confirms 100% what he's already been told due to you being there for the event. ("By the Gods, Irileth was right")
This is a great video. Really well-done editing, script, and super engaging structure. I really enjoyed it!!! Looking forward to your future videos too.
Having to deal with layers upon layers of people and their problems in order to progress both in power and through the game sounds just like an mmo, except the fictional npcs made by a writer are less strange than the real people you meet online
Totally agree that you see this way more in MMOs, at least with gear, but I would argue it varies from game to game. In WoW, I get a lot of my high-end gear from raids, in FF14, the high-end stuff you must buy from guilds through reputation points.
It was a fantastic video - the comparison between 2 games worked super well to illustrate your point. Great job, subscribed for more. Gothic 2 was also my first RPG ever and it will forever hold a special place. Actually, I have quite high hopes for G1 remake because I replayed G1 recently and was shocked at how little content in dialogues and quests there was after the 1st chapter - pretty much all NPCs dont have anything new to say or to comment on the ongoing events in the second half of the game even when they should, so hopefully the remake will flesh this out and provide additional dialogue throughout the whole run for better immersion and additional quests.
I didn't even know I was subscribed, didn't recognize the channel name. I apparently found the Far Cry 2 video when I was binging content about that game and liked the video. Nice video.
12:08 The game world of Skyrim DOES NOT "keep turning" without the player. Everything in Skyrim stagnates until you show up. And questlines exist in a vacuum. Nothing interacts with anything beyond the setpiece it exists in. Most side quests in Witcher 3 do the same thing, but there are some exceptions. Most side quests in Witcher 3 don't have lasting effects beyond the local area either, but THERE ARE exceptions. In Skyrim, there are very few exceptions, if any.
Are you sure about this though? NPCS do not go offline when the player is around, I think they end up following their daily chores and you can later encounter them in different places. I also encountered mobs fighting each other in the world a lot of times, granted probably not everywhere.
As far as I know, all Skyrim NPCs, except for those triggered by events, very much, as Ivan points out, have a daily routine that define where they are at any given time of day. You can even look these routines up in the Skyrim fan wiki. That is not the case in Witcher 3. But that's a technicality that game wouldn't even benefit from. Witcher 3 is awesome as is.
@crocodilegambit Who cares? Nothing actually comes of it, it's not like there's an economy, gaining experience, some sort of political change, or anything else. It's just the gears of a clock [one which is very failure-prone] continuing to turn until the last mob kills the last non-essential NPC. The only, and I really mean the only, significance it has is if the player is a thief, and thus it's back to being dependent on the presence and action of the player.
@mortimerwake2974 It depends on the game. In the Stalker trilogy a life adds so much immersion. People you helped or let live can be encountered again. Wildlife hunts, random, emergent gameplay makes for the player encountering fights between factions, wildlife/mutants and anything in between, it's very fun, unpredictable, immersive and feels alive
Thank you for this video. As other commentors, I went and watched all of your other videos because of your profound and rigorous understanding and analysis of the social culture of videogames. I sincerely hope you take the blowing up of this video as the hint to make videos more frequently. We'll surely be here to support you :)
Gothic 2 is a game that is etched into my soul, but I always find it very hard to describe why to someone who hasn't played it. This video gave me a way to finally explain, so thanks for that! Also, describing Xardas as Temu Saruman made me laugh out loud. For anyone who wants Gothic, but less of a sausage fest I would recommend the Gothic 2 mod Velaya. I recently replayed it, it holds up really well and has some absolutely brilliant and hilarious writing.
Playing Elex after watching this and it’s giving me a lot to think about especially after finishing Horizon 2 last year. I’m charmed by how hostile the world is, the grumpy people and the flexibility of play. It’s not something I think I need all the time, but I’m surprised by how much I’m enjoying what outwardly seemed like a tough game to enjoy unless you had a history with Piranha Bites
As an American, and a TTRPG designer, I'm glad I stumbled on this video. I had never heard of Gothic, and it's a fascinating design space. I mostly know Skyrim by osmosis, so hearing how you can bee-line the main quest is interesting to know. (I've heard of low level runs where someone shows up to the final boss nearly naked, wielding a candle holder, and were able to win because the game scales with you.) Remember seeing some clips of a player walking around naked, with NPCs alternating between mocking and offended in their chatter, but not really doing much else. Leaves me to wonder what would happen if you tried that in Gothic.
10:48 i think you give too little credit: they had reports about a dragon flying around (many people would have seen Alduin fleeing and the smoke from Helgen) and would be wanting news. Btw, as you enter the jarl's chambers, they *are* discussing the Helgen attack and saying they need more info on it. You are stopped by the chief of security with a sword in hand which only lets you speak with the Jarl once you explain that you saw it. Also, they had no way of knowing you were being executed or aiding Ulfric. Later, you took down a freaking dragon and absorbed its soul. I bet any jarl would be eager to keep you close.
Besides, you don't even help Ulfric escape. The man is literally off doing his own thing, whether you choose Ralof or Hadvar. The general point I agree with though. A part of me does wonder what a version of Skyrim which focused more on making a grounded setting would look like. The pacing in general is just horrendous everywhere, you go from one thing to the next with barely any explanation or pause. The Dark Brotherhood is, like, just about the only place that even tries portraying the mundanity of actually being a member of these factions.
@@thosebloodybadgers8499 I don't think the Gothic pacing makes much sense either. A town gets raised to the ground. A foreigner claims to have been there. Wouldn't you want to at least hear what he has to say? waiting for him to become the town mayor before giving him an audience is very game-y.
@@UlissesSampaio I think that comes down to your experience with bureaucracy, if you take it as lived experience i think you can see why german developers find it believable that even if something big is going on, their governmental apparatus is slow to move and react until someone/something with the proper authority forces it to move. Skyrim is the opposite where it constructs a situation for you the player to *feel* special, because where are the other people rushing off to warn whiterun? Anyone in riverwood could easily see the fire and hear the dragon roar. Or why not either of the soldiers you can pick to go with to escape helgen? Surely if either of them warned whiterun it would curry favor with their respective factions. Why is it specifically your character who gets to do so especially if they know of the danger happening in front of them? Gothic i think better lampshades this fact by making important people and guards laugh you off as a loon, cuz lets be real, Most people in society would laugh you off if you said there was some sort of ambiguous danger on the horizon but you had no real proof. Its still fun and exciting in skyrim though, but lets be honest also most players dont immediately rush to Whiterun, they get sidetracked for a good few hours then go to whiterun. It almost feels more narrative correct to show up with FUS than to not show up with it.
@Tojeaux_ but the jarl of whiterun knows about the destruction of Helgen, and iirc had rumors of dragons by the time you reach him. They just didn't have a first-hand report of someone who witnessed it (you, your mate, Ulfric are the only 3 survivors?). So someone, maybe coming from Riverwood, must have told him about heavy smoke from Helgen before the dragonborn arrives. He is actually discussing the destruction when you enter the hall, and you are stopped before reaching him by a soldier with sword in hand.
Gothic 2 is my favorite RPG still, and nothing really compares sadly, except a polish overhaul mod of Gothic 2 (Chronicles of Myrtana: Archolos). The developers that were primarily behind Gothic 1 and 2 have long since left the company by the time of ELEX, so it is not at all surprising that they couldn't really capture back the essence.
First Risen was very good, the series had potential and Phirania could return to glory with it, however they ruined everything with Risen 2. The game was too short, atmosphere was completely different (pirates and voodo!), they simplified already simple combat and leveling systems and they added very unbalanced guns.
Im about the 15 minute mark when you finally bring up your thesis, and it really clicks for me. So apologies if you do talk about the fallout games, but hearing you talk about these things really does hammer home the difference between Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas, with the latter being the direct continuation of Interplay's (then later Troika) ethos regarding fallout. While Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 are almost quintessential frontier stories, there is something about how your interactions with interweave all the different societies and communities in the wasteland, and how your invidualistic adventure has now ostracized you From community. In fallout 3 you're cut loose of your obligation to your community and find yourself on a self-serving question to find your last living relative. FNV starts you out as a Courier, someone who is perpetually on the road, but the endings put you on the path towards becoming something larger than just yourself. You join the NCR, join the Legion, fight for untarnished anarchy of the wastes. The game pushes you towards Community with its rather indepth faction system and costume system too. Interplay and Troika were like Eurojank studios in the US, the founders being quasi socialists who wanted to explore societal upheaval in a dark but hilarious manner. Having finished the video now, i will say my fallout comparison certainly isnt perfect, but like you said its a continum, there are moments were your outsider status is questioned by the in game NPCs in all the fallout games, but rarely is it a hard roadblock outside of say FNV and trying to seek admission into the Legion camp but its not literally impossible. Very good video and i do agree that i would love to see more games take on this gameplay structure. Have you the player actually caring about your place in the world and in society and what it ends up saying and critiquing about that society.
Great analysis of the topic! I have to say I'm a bit surprised you haven't mentioned The Witcher (the first one, so far the only one I've played), which is both claimed by the devs and in my own experience a pretty good attempt at taking what was good about Gothic I & II, improving on it, and then building a Sapkowski-themed collectivist RPG around that. You can even see it in the structure of the game: divided into chapters, where chapters 1 & 2 are noir detective stories with fantasy veneers, then you rise up in society as a reward and gratification for your efforts and you navigate politics and some moderate dungeoneering, a bit of an intermezzo where you review your successes, get allies and such and a bit of a breather because you're finally at the top of the food chain, and then the last chapter, where the main storyline is resolved, is a bit of an afterthought of a dungeon so as not to drag too much. Because you were there for the noir and the politics, with adventuring only a side hustle. Also, I've read so much from Piranha Bytes about how much inspiration they took from Ultima Underworld that I have to play it one day (as someone who's never played any Ultima) and look for any similarities.
No this genre of game didn't die (thank goodness). Drova is a fantastic 2d Gothic game, and I hope more studios follow suite and make their own Gothic-likes. I am however going to miss Piranha, as I have a lot of fond memories of their games.
Bery nice video. BTW, little known fact: Apart from getting the farmer's clothes, the merchant's permit, the alchemist's herbs or bribing the guard, you can also just run around the city, jump into the ocean and swim into the harbor. Best thing about it: If you do this, your old friend Lares, who is standing at the harbor will actually comment on it. That was the attention to detail, PB put in there. :)
While I'm a Morrowind-kid and will always hail this game as the best one to ever bless earth with its existence, it was ultimately Gothic that made me want to make a game myself one day. There's just so much to be loved about it and so much jank to cut out.
Cool! Very interesting classification for the game. I did enjoy it being a social simulator in a fantasy world. I have the same approach to the dubbing, but I'm used to the Polish one, which is so excellent for a long time in my childhood I was sure the game was Polish.
@@crocodilegambit Yes, simmilar to what you said about the German original, the polish dub has sneaked it's way into polish gamer lingo. I actually love the game so much I got a tatoo of Uriziel in the ore pile. It's definitely a cult classic over here,
I always thought one of the main reasons Gothic II never made it big in america was because the english sub was so bad. Now hearing the polish sub is excellent, makes me wonder why they actually managed to nail one and fail at the other. Or maybe the whole tone was easier to translate to polish people than to americans because of culture?
I'm only 15 minutes in, but I think I can already get your point. And while you probably talk about it later, it instantly screams "This is why having developers from different regions and perspectives is so important", because Skyrim SCREAMS "American" from every pore. Skyrim is how we basically see the world, a society that technically exists but if it doesn't cooperate with you, forget about it, you are what matters. Society and authority are stupid and just want to hold you back, but really they should see how exceptional you are and reward you. I, personally, never plaid Gothic as an American where it wasn't as big, but it's so huge within that specific ARPG space that I know a good amount of the series just through osmosis, and it definitely comes across as more...European. The idea of an individual mattering more than all of society is laughable, even the highest authorities had obligations and responsibilities that constrained them and controlled their life just as much as they did. It gives a very different feeling, because empowerment isn't JUST on your own terms, it's is necessarily within the terms of society as well. Now to watch the rest and see if it swerves in a completely different direction.
Good point! It never occured to me how the philosophy of gothic was so different than the TES games, partly because its been almost 20 years now since I played gothic 2. I really like how he emphases that both design philosophies make interesting games. Its not about one being better than the other, but both are good in their own way and it is nice to have both. Sad that the "collectivist" design philosophy is so rarely found nowadays. Im always a bit sad that some german classics like gothic or sacred never made it big in america. I believe the one of the main reasons is that they had problems translating the dialogues into something that slaps as hard as the original lines
Thanks for your video. I never played Gothic (a bit allergic to fantasy-like settings and real-time combat) but really enjoyed watching the video and learning about your perspective. I hope I can adopt some of the ideas in my game one day.
I always describe Enderal as Skyrim meets Gothic meets Mass Effect. I literally thought "These devs have absolutely played Gothic" while I was playing it, and that was before I realised the devs are German.
I recommend Enderal to literally everyone, it's one of my favourite games and I think it's because it understands that a hero is merely the spokesperson for a much more concerted effort
Enderal is an experience to be sure. Very good power scaling, great story (even if a bit contrived in some points), and an INCREDIBLE soundtrack. An absolute achievement in modding
What an incredible piece of media you created! Gothic and Gothic 2 are still my favorite games of all time. Played both back in 2004 and i still go back to them as nothing came out to this day that achieves the same kind of immersion and world building. I'd beckon you to try a few gems worth your time if you haven't already: Gedonia, Hard to be a God, Outward and the first Dragon's Dogma. All pretty unique and some similarities to Gothic here and there. Keep up the good work!
What's sad is that Bethesda has made an RPG quite close to this - or maybe rather, striking a nice balance between this and the "cowboy" RPG - and it was called... Morrowind. Yet again Bethesda can't stop falling down.
I was getting the same out of Skyrim and Oblivion that I was getting from Morrowind without any problems. I think, some people take games too literally and don't moderate their own experiences, instead absorbing whatever the game throws at them as is. Like, I never took Skyrims "ur a dragon" narrative seriously because that simply not something interesting for me. Like, mkay, so I did the story, and that's fine. This didn't change my awareness of myself in relation to the world, and the game accomodated that. Skyrim doesn't hammer in a narrative you don't want to engage in. You can work your way your become the head of the thieves guild, and then become a lowly servant of the mages just fine and frolick around harvesting herbs for the potions. The disjointed feeling of the world that Bethesda's games are famous for allows you to be whoever you want to be and play in whatever way you want. Gothic though heavily moderated your experiences, and you couldn't really be whoever you wanted. I remember feeling way more like "ur sO sPeCiAl" in Gothic than in any Bethesda's rpg, even though it's possible that comparing them literally should produce the opposite result
@NJ-wb1cz people engage roleplaying games as though they are like other genres and just do whatever they can to consume content. it is pretty sad. like you said, people need to moderate their own experiences, this is especially true in sandbox rpgs (and sandbox games in general), just consuming games to get more hour per dollar seems like a terrible way to play anything imo.
@@rainbowsorceress2082 I dunno, given the popularity of Skyrim I think many people are doing that just fine. There's some silent majority that doesn't produce massive essays about games but simply plays them, and I think Skyrim is one of those universally recognized games that are popular all over the world, not just in "individualistic" countries.
That's just overreacted. Where do thry "keep" falling? Because of ONE game? That is an entire differenr behemoth because they need to mix their specific rpg genre with a space game, which they made pretty well even? Skyrim is a different RPG. A deep RPG? No, and it doesn't need to be. They have different goals, and want an alife game centered around you. While gothic is a linear short game with different goals. Just as witcher, whixh has no real world that is anywhere near as alive as skyrin. You take YOUR madeup experiences and want to make it up like bethesda made the worst, while it's thw opposite. They are quite amazing really, and their status and money proves it.
@@Giro-u2c Where did they fail? Just their most recent game Starfield, where they quite literally failed to live up to even the standards of their own 14 year old game in terms of world building, quests and characters, just to name a few things. Also every single game since Morrowind where they eroded meaningful choices and consequences of your actions with every single entry. You or even a huge number of people liking their games is no testament to their quality. Lots of people like McDonalds, doesn't make it good food.
Come to think of it, this is in large part what I enjoyed in Assassin’s Creed 1 and 2. It’s built on almost exactly the same structure, except that you’re _forced_ to infiltrate all the factions because you’re part of a secret extra faction, you’re an assassin. The different hiding techniques, correct disguises, etc. for each faction’s region and the power of each faction really played a big role in making the jungle gym fun. In AC1 it’s Crusader and Templar dominated, blue-gray Acre, where fighting and acrobatics are best, vs. yellow-green Caliphate Damascus, where the crowd will protect you, vs. yellow-red Assassin Masyaf vs. white-orange Jerusalem, where your best bet is to not be seen at all. AC2 is brown-and-white Florence, where running away and hiding yourself is king; Blue, cramped, watery Venice where Courtesans and Thieves will get you anywhere; wide-open, green Tuscany, for mercenary skirmishes and horseback escapes; and eventually pristine, marbled Rome, for all of the hardest final Templar challenges.
Mate I don't know where you got this, but AC1 doesn't work like this at all. Whenever you complete a set of assassinations, you gain notoriety and the guards become more alert, it's not dependent on cities, it's dependent on how far along in the game you are and it's the same for all 3.
@ yeah…? Because the plot of the game is that you ingratiate yourself with the factions to assassinate somebody high up the social ladder. Each city has different traversal and blending mechanics that make it easier to get to your target and that the guards are better or worse at countering through slight AI tweaks and level design. Especially in AC1 there’s a lot of “curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal” moments. PS I got it from playing the game. Edit: on reread, I’m wondering if you thought I was implying there were different notoriety levels in the different cities? Which, in AC1, AFAI Can Recall there aren’t, just different levels of guard AI in different sections of each city that you progressively have to get through. Each city absolutely does have different strengths in guard AI though, I remember that Jerusalem’s guards were particularly vulnerable to social blending, and Acre’s were vulnerable to approaches from above.
@@thesquishedelf1301 I've played through the game like 10 different times throughout my life, you don't ingratiate yourself with any factions whatsoever. And the transversal and blending in each city is exactly the same with the only difference being beggars or crazy people trying to break your cover in the poorer districts, depending on the city. Other than that, you walk slowly and hit the blend button, walk with scholars, sit on benches. Same everywhere. I get the feeling (could be wrong) English isn't your first language so maybe you're just not explaining yourself well, but what you're saying is pretty much incorrect or very poorly worded.
@ Guess we just have very different experiences with the game. My 3 playthroughs all left me with distinct impressions in each city, with level design and guard AI making them easier to fool with different tactics in each. I distinctly recall Crusader guards in Acre being particularly belligerent, except for a brief window immediately after an assassination in Damascus; and I guess “ingratiate” _was_ the wrong word to use, although you absolutely _do_ build up trust with specific members of each community in order to acquire necessary information. English is my first language by the way, so uhhhh… thanks for the vote of confidence, jackass. It’s impolite to say that even to ESL students who are struggling. Maybe you’re grappling with my vocabulary use, or the fact it’s hard to argue against you without repeating myself?
@thesquishedelf1301 Well, since you decided to be unpleasant, perhaps you should be mad at yourself for articulating your thoughts like an acephalous monkey with a keyboard. Whatever tactics you think you had against different factions were imagined, guards work in tiers and Templars are on a different tier from a common city guard, they can be found everywhere, they're like special bosses or collectibles, they're not city dependent. Basic guards, bruisers etc are the same from city to city, only reskinned. If we had different experiences in these regards, you must have been playing a pirated version. And don't blame me for your innability to argue your point effectively.
Bro, first of all - this is an amazing video. Good script, narration and editing. But after you talked so much about "lost art" - did you even heard about "The Chronicles of Myrtana: Archolos"? I'm playing it right now, and feels like real "Gothic 3" that they robbed us. Give the game a few hours(It's free on Steam) and maybe make a video about it? As a fellow Gothic fan, it would be amazing
Idk why the algorithm brought me here (maybe via Kenshi videos), but my lord, I am truly blessed by our computer gods. The contrast between the quality of editing and the subscriber count is criminal. Fantastic video brother.
It is a running joke between me and my friends that gothic is the most german game ever, for the same reasons you stated. First thing you do in skyrim? Slay a dragon. First thing you do in Gothic? Get a fucking job. Love it.
It is a runnjng joke in Poland too. It is the most Polish game made in Germany. If you say that you don't like Gothic. It means that you are not true Pole. That's why I have bought It on Nintendo Switch. And never played It.
@@martaanna9185 Don't be kidding. You stole it in germany.
@@nocturnaljoe9543 That's a really hurtful stereotype. And really funny.
@ You got me in the first half.
Picking turnips
Gothic was really, REALLY massive in Poland, it's deeply ingrained in Polish internet culture to this day.
Dub was so good I thought it was a Polish game when I was younger xD
Given how big an impact polish immigrants had on Ruhr valley culture (and dialect), that's rather fitting.
Gothic was what reconnected Germany and Poland after the "recent unpleasantries".
In Poland Gothic 1 and 2 had Skyrim or Witcher 3 levels of popularity in 2000's, only GTA was bigger. You can refer to google trends to confirm that.
@@mnk9073 Willy Brandt kneeled so Gothic could run.
Skyrim: to maintain the fantasy idea of rugged individualism, the world bend over backward into a nonsense pretzel to let you ignore all social norms.
Gothic: The only reason you're not filling form in triplicate to enter town is because forms haven't been invented yet, be thankful.
"god damn it the council increased the property tax again"
vs
"god damn it Lydia"
You know two spells? You’re the new head of the Mage’s Guild!
@@ecbrown6151 that head mage 40 years later: "in my days we needed to go up the hill… both ways."
Papers Please
sounds like communism
My brother in Innos... When you said, "This video will be more emotional and personal," I didn't expect to see a 45-minute lecture in the form of a video essay about game design with dozens of examples AND relevant clips of gameplay throughout.
Why, he said he's German.
@@LuLe232 😂🤣
You're expecting too much out of a Deutscher
This work stands as a testament to his meticulous efforts. It serves as both his thesis and a strong hiring prospect for any project.
My favourite part of entering Khorinis is that aside all of the options you listed, it's possible to run around the city walls, avoid a few more dangerous animals, climb a cliff, jump into the sea and swim inside, Lares congratulates us on our craziness and we get 400xp bonus
Lares, but the point still stands :)
You can also become a mage and the guard will have to let you through.
Don't forget Lothar going "WTF!?" at how he hasn't seen you pass the entrance because you got around the guards. Of course that means possibly missing out on XP after speaking to Lares and then meeting Lothar if you had the idea of how to pass through from Lester's advice.
has anyone tried becoming mercenary before entering the town? I imagine that'd be kinda hard but... oh well I guess it's time for another round xD
@@nebojsabuhac1442 Hier, iss mal ne Wurst!
35:12 - Gothic 2 players will know the UTTER TROLLING of the level designer to place that Innos Statuette right there on that table.
Before Witcher 3 with its "you try to talk to NPC and you light a candle instead", we had "You try to talk to Hagen, and you get your ass beaten into a pulp for stealing that goddamned statuette".
Fun fact: You can take any item from the lower level of the town hall, they aren't scripted to belong to any NPCs
@@Revanchist-PL Strange. Was that a part of original game or did it end up a patch? I distinctly remember getting my bones kicked in for the first time I accidentally picked it up, and avoided it ever since like a plague.
@@KubinWielki Hagen is not on the lower levels.
@ What do you mean, he's on the ground floor, across the entrace. Does that not count as lower level?
you can take if you are milita, paladin or mage. but that also allows you to steal pretty much anything in the city, the castle in the valley of mines or the monestary.
Gothic: You are in a world.
Skyrim: There is a world around you.
what an interesting, succinct way of saying that. You're definitely right! Such a small shift in framing can make all the difference
True, there is also Enderal which draws a lot of inspiration from the Gothic formula, but has some of the empowering, core bethesda-like gameplay aspects to it, albeit toned down some notches, story and writing was great in Enderal too. Highly recommended for anyone that enjoys both these games.
@@idontwantahandlethough shut up, ChatGPT
This is why me, a Gothic fan stopped playing Skyrim after a few hours, and only picked up the game again 5 years later, when the Requiem overhaul was made.
@tomigun5180 whats the Requiem overhaul?
What amazing about these games is how familiar they force you to get with the map. I can play Geoguessr with Gothic 1/2 map and Risen map. There are so many open world games that might have lots of "stuff" to do, interesting ways to exploit the environment (e.g., parkouring in Assassin's Creed), but you quit the game and barely remember any of the landmarks. Gothic will make you learn shortcuts and monster areas to avoid. Among other things.
I haven't played the game in at least 5 years, but I could describe the path from the old camp to the swamp camp and many other locations. I can't do that for any other game, even ones I played for a longer time and more recently. Playing Gothic again is like visiting the town you used to live in. It's magical. I really should replay it.
There it is, the best and most accurate comment in youtube
To be fair, AC games have some spectacular architecture, and very very memorable locations
@@zuiop9993 Yeah, it's true. But Gothic really forced you to memorize the landmarks because you had neither fast-travel nor a GPS. You could buy a map, but it was exactly that, a map. And you'd be running back and forth between major locations a couple of times. I still remember the tiny wolf forest that was between the old camp and the mine because it was a scary shortcut but it was literally just a small batch of trees.
IMHO Dragon's Dogma is quite similar but with a team-based action RPG. By game's end you know the entire map backwards-and-forwards.
Oof... So the only remaining significant German game series is Anno?
The German game industry looked so promising 25 years ago, but somehow never managed to grow beyond Gothic, Anno, and settlers. Now we can just look sadly at Poland and Sweden and dream about what could have been.
I mean, there are still promising studios out there making amazing games. Look at Enshrouded for example. Made in Frankfurt.
Isn't 'the Hunt: Showdown also by Crytek? But I get your point. There might be reasonably big hit left, but you have to dig for them.
German worker rights prevent an inhuman exploration of people to flood the marked with massive but ultimately cheap games year after year.
Wasn't spec Ops the line and Crysis also from german developers?
@@NilsNone Yes. Over 12 years ago.
Alright TH-cam algorithm, what have you got for me today?
Longform highbrow commentary about a series I've never played, from a creator I've never heard of, in a totally different region to all my other viewing interests?
Sure, deal, I'll watch that through. And subscribe for more.
And? Did the algorithm deliver?
@HungrySnowBadger This time it really did :)
All so called "eurojank" aside. When Gothic 1 came out, in my eyes a small german developer did what Origin had aimed for with "Ultima 9" and failed. They put you into a breathtaking, threedimensional fantasy world, that felt real and alive.
>They put you into a breathtaking, threedimensional fantasy world,
Then cut off your hands and forcefully weld on rake-like prosthetics. Gothic controls should be categorized as a Gestapo torture implement.
It's arguably even more polished and well designed than the other ~2001 RPGs Morrowind and Arx Fatalis. Even though I really loved Arx Fatalis and I've a sweet spot for TES3, these games will never be a "classic" for me like Gothic is with all its technical revolutions. The fact that they've solved the "Escort quest problem" over 20 years ago, where others STILL struggle is crazy. Additionally you can easily play as another character with Marvin-mode and pressing O while you look at somebody. This implies that even the player is just "one entity" code-wise. To think this a bit further: it's not a huge step away, that other NPCs also have quests and do these on their own and live an actual "life" etc. because you can see that the journal is unique to the specific character.
I still have to play through Ultima 9 though... even though the controls are horrible, I think that I could kinda enjoy it :D
Wizardry 8 doesn't count?
Pirahna bytes had a problem understanding what made their games good. They just tried upping the scale over and over, without adressing the real flaws. A sad end to the studio, but they were at fault.
True. The moment they adapted their game with ideas from other devs it all crumbled. Gothic 2 is my absolute favourite.
- You're... Dragonborn!
vs
- You're dirt under my fingernail.
vs
We're watching you. Scum.
I know it's been mentioned, but for anybody wanting a more Gothic-like experience, try Skyrim Requiem. Even better, a Wabbajack modlist with it, because Requiem is hard to install properly.
That's like how in Daggerfall you could be taken to court if you did bad things. You could fight it or accept the punishment for your actions. Also gold had a weight to it. Making it that one needed a bank account. Or if you have lots of gold to take out you could get a letter of credit. That was always pretty neat as well. The level of realism that went into some older games.
This popped up in my recommendations, and five hours later I've watched all your videos. Thank you for filling this dark day with things to think over, when it would have otherwise been filled with things to brood over.
It's going to get worse before it gets better. Speaking of collectivism versus individualism, it's best we strap in and stand up, lest the better days _never_ come
It’s one of the better video essay channels for sure, no bloated run time with a clear subject and arguments backed with examples.
There are a LOT of channels that could learn from this
Sebastian’s lawyer here. Check you mail box.
I'm countersuing over the Garfield comics of mine that your client still has in his possession. Anzeige ist raus.
@@crocodilegambit Anzeige wird bearbeitet
@@crocodilegambit i remember giving out a copy.. but not owning garfield comics...
In Poland the Gothic series was EXREMELY huge. In the 2000's every kid played it, it created the whole internet culture around it with thousands of TH-cam parodies. I heard about Gothic way before I learned about The Elder Scrolls. It's still a very beloved game and there are studios which make high quality mods and remakes. The Polish voice actor of the main character became a well known voice actor thanks for this role. Duh, I wholeheartedly believe that the Witcher developers played Gothic as teens/young adults too and it highly influenced them to make their own games.
Tyranny is an interesting game which might scratch some itch around navigating factions.
tyranny is dope (the game, I mean. lol)
Yes, great game.
Tyranny is genuinely great especially for what it is. Spell crafting was a really cool idea
The worldbuilding was fantastic. Shame that Obsidian let Josh Sawyer to jerk off to his boring blandfest that were Pillars, because it was obvious that the next game would be a huge flop because how poorly received the first game was with it's core audience, instead of putting their money into further development of Tyranny and it's sequels.
@@idontwantahandlethough tyranny is dope (the drug, I mean) :P
Gothic had so much influence in Poland, that even been mentioned by the Rebel Wolves (devs who work on The Blood of Dawnwalker)
They said that they want players to feel something closer to Gothic than Skyrim.
I never heard of that game. If it's even partially inspired by Gothic I will be keeping an eye out for it. Thanks.
@@XalantorIt’s a game made by The Witcher 3 director and ex CD Projekt Red employees!
Gothic had a massive influence on The Witcher 1 by the way😉
Yeah Witcher 1 looks exactly like gothic games
@@soheil-slvt Yeah. You can read in a lot of polish articles that CDPR was taking inspiration from the Gothic series in terms of atmosphere and simulation of the living world. They fully implemented it in Witcher 3. As a Pole and a fan of both Gothic and Witcher games i find it really cool!
Drova - Forsaken Kin? Released last year and it's practically a top down version. I felt like a kid again playing gothic, it was amazing.
Anyway, cool video! Makes me wish I spoke german to see what you mean about the original voices/writing
Was coming to the comments to mention drova. Super Gothic inspired by its general feel, obviously the gameplay is different as its a top down isometric vs an over the shoulder 3d. But it hits the very Gothic feel.
Only complaints I can lob its way is that the 2 factions don't really make the playthroughs feel that different. And that the progression cadence feels off, but its something they've tried to address since I played adding an additional armor into act 1. As if youre like me and many others you'll spend 15 hours in act one then get through the other 5 acts in the next 15.
Was also looking for this!
I always look for games to scratch the gothic itch.
First one I wanna mention is obvious, but extremely good: Chronicles of Myrtana: Archolos is a Gothic 2 mod and I find it does exactly what we needed as both a straight injection of more gothic while also developping some core gameplay concepts from gotchi 2 further, further immersing you in a world that now hast you scrounging up basically EVERYTHING to craft and cook into more valuable things, and its city is so much bigger than khorinis too!
Second one I am currently in the process of playing and its the isometric action rpg Drova: Forsaken Kin - its explicitly gothic inspired and so far, in the early parts of the game, captures the feeling of survival in a rough wilderness and also the social relevance of the factions within its world.
I was also going to leave a comment shouting out Drova: Forsaken Kin! What a gem of an indie title.
Drova was cool, but it has zero replayability for me. The pixel graphics are very pleasant to look at (especially the lighting), the exploration is cleverly augmented with the right-click focus mode, and the music is mostly atmospheric and fitting. It also rarely gets stale. But the best thing in this game is the combat. It's not clunky at all, and very well designed around the usage of focus-generating throwables and other items. You really feel the advantage if you allow yourself to actually use your arsenal. Best of all, your enemies also use them, so you have to be constantly on guard. Very satisfying and I'd love it if there was even more of it, like more arena fights and bandit encounters.
But the story is simply boring, the characters are mostly forgettable (with the exception of very few) and the exploration rewards are often underwhelming. Sure, you will find a good weapon sometimes, or a new (most likely useless) skill, but most likely your reward for venturing deep into the dangerous wilderness will be an old axe, some herbs and vendor trash.
Maybe Fable?
Try risen and elex, both good games. With the classic PB jank
I remember the "discussions" on forums comparing Elder Scrolls Franchise to the Gothic Franchise. Very passionate "discussions", Good times.
I know you've only listed a few of the ways to enter Khorinis, and it wasn't meant as an exhaustive list, so my post isn't meant to be "umm akchtually", but rather a praise of the developers' attention to detail:
- You can actually climb the city wall in a certain spot.
- You can descend into the ditch next to the first gate, go around the town wall, and from the other gate you go up the cliff to a lighthouse, and jump into the sea. From there you can swim to the docks.
If you do either of those things, the game very much acknowledges it by giving you a special dialogue from Lares (and 500xp reward). Iirc there's also a special dialogue from Lothar ranting about not seeing you enter through the gate he stares at, and that the guards at other gate have express orders not to let unknowns in, and that he'll have to have a word with them, lol.
And also a little goof that buying Leather Armour at Orlan's tavern lets you get into the city with no questions asked. You know... the armour that many bandits and thieves are wearing (but to be fair, also hunters, so I guess it still kinda works).
I absolutely love game design bits like that.
🤓🤓🤓
Or you can "just" become a mage before entering town for the first time. The game also acknowledges that with unique dialogue.
@@wiener_process Oh, cool :D I don't think I've ever gone this route, but it's great that the acknowledgement is there.
@@wiener_process Yep, there's no reason to enter town at all unless it's to join the militia. Of course, most people don't know this on their first playthroughs. You can join the mercenaries or mages.
That was also what I liked about KC:D! Kind of the only thing I really enjoyed about the game, and I really liked how you categorized the "lone frontiersman" archetype as being distinctly American. Because, yes, yes it so much is.
There's a similar archetype in the Robinsonade. All the points about industriousness, ingenuity and taking care of yourself are there, but... it also tends to go out of its way to see the social isn't rejected, but unavailable (and if possible, restored ASAP), and the _problems_ with being left on your own are downplayed a lot less (though the protagonist is still _incredibly_ lucky, of course :)). The take away is generally that the whole thing was a valuable adventure... but also very much something you do _not_ want :D
KC:D is very rewarding insofar as when you DO accomplish some kind of independence and such, but generally speaking at best most characters will be surprised and confused, and at worst hostile and suspicious - to be an independent woodsman is to be a criminal, a poacher, a thief, a bandit. You are sworn to serve your lord and therefore your community, what else can people assume you're doing out there other than weird stuff?
I am greek yet my teen years were filled with Gothic 1, I still remember being 14 and going home after school, playing that game on the brand new laptop I bought from working all summer as a server. Man, those were the days! Gothic is why I love rogue/stealth/lockpicking classes in the first place!
I think, this video surprisingly helped me to figure out, what my problem was with Baldur's Gate 3. I ahd a great time with BG3, becaus eit's a brilliant game, but always, when I'm playing it, there is a feeling of missing something. An I think it's the missing of a true collectivist experience. BG3 has all these conflicts in all three acts, where you can pick a side, betray your allies, make choices, all the good stuff, but because it's also a game about exploration (because it wants to capture the oldschool dungeon-crawling) it lacks consequences.
In the beginning of act 2, there is the quest, where you escort a caravan of bad guys, to infiltrate them. When the caravan is ambushed by rebels, you have the difficult choice to either kill the rebels or blow your cover.
But if you side with the rebels and make your way to the fortress of the bad guys alone later, you can just lie to them and enter as if nothing happened. And I just miss the harshness, whre the game tells you: "Ok, you made these guys your enemys, have fun storming their fortress". It's this whole beautiful world with all its consequences and factions but they are all designed around you.
My problem with BG3 was meeting the druids right near the start. They're vile racists, at best, and no sensible approach to that is available, the next best thing, simply killing them, is heavily discouraged.
I don't enjoy games which require me to sell my soul to play. Turning the game off is always an option.
@@ailithtwinning6806Huh? But they’re, not. What? And no, slaughtering a group of people is not the most sensible approach. Did I, what? There’s some racial tension but the druids themselves aren’t racist just y’know seeing an oncoming horde of evil, decide to lock off the grove from it, and dealing with a refugee crisis with limited resources ain’t great lmao. “Selling my soul”, what?
@@ailithtwinning6806 Heavy spoilers for act 1.
Kagha is a puppet for an isolationist group of druids known as the shadow druids. You can uncover this and confront her resulting in you either killing off the shadow druids and talking Kagha into not being a racist or you can just outright kill Kagha as well and leave Halsin in charge of the grove. In either case the Tieflings are allowed to stay however long they want to.
Some recent games in this vein i recommend:
Colony Ship: A post-earth roleplaying game
Drova: Forsaken Kin
Roadwarden
All three have significant non-individualist components and require making major social choices as part of the critical path.
Colony Ship i think kinda stuffs it up, your character has no place in the world other than the fact they are a gun for hire and their connection to any of the factions is tenous at best along with the fact that they can make a unilateral decision to land the ship immediately (even if its ill-advised to do so) While ive only done one ending, the Brotherhood ending, nothing that happens from the brotherhood quests make me *feel* like im a part of the faction. Its not like the firemage quest line Crocodile describes or how in gothic one there were genuine societal rules you had to follow that werent just the standard "dont commit crime" ones (and in gothic one certain acts were no longer considered crimes, like randomly attacking people, the real consequence was getting decked if the person you were attacking paid the protection money.)
Colony ship just has a story about ideology and its effects on their respective populaces and an honestly shallow one at that. The neutral monks and the mutants being a part of the same coin, where critical ship duties seemingly supersede "ideology" even though the Monks are trying to keep everyone alive they refuse to broker any real peace(and in fact nearly ruin a chance at peace when you the player allow one faction to come out on top), and the mutants are seemingly ostracized for no real reason other than "ew mutants"
I enjoyed Colony Ship very much, even if I have an issue with in-game lighting.
@ colony ship is a fun game and has some fun moments and neat world building, but I do think it’s message is shallow
What an excellent channel to discover! Excited to work my way through the rest of your videos :)
Your writing is outstanding, especially for someone who's mother tongue isn't English (just as it is the case with me)! Du hast soeben einen neuen Fan gewonnen. Ein Glück, dass mir dieses Video vollkommen random in die timeline gespült wurde.
Risen 1 was great, the only problem were the later chapters where you had nothing to do. Which sadly mirrored Gothic 1.
Oh, and in Gothic 2 you also had the option to go around the city walls towards the lighthouse, jump down from a cliff and swim to the harbor for some nice XP bonus. Lares even had a voiced reaction (""I must be crazy, what are you doing here? Did you SWIM here?"). I know it's not a secret nowadays, but I was pretty happy when I discovered this over 20 years ago. The game always rewarded exploration :)
The first chapter in Risen 1 was great and after that everything else felt progresively rushed.
To be honest having a fantasy game in a medditeranean setting felt like a breath of fresh air.
Search and read about ludonarrative dissonance. I think they prevent it not intentionally, but still.
Road-Warden I think handles this pretty well (still room for improvement, but it does pretty well)
To do your job (the main quest, which all side quests in some way tie in to) in game you have to work with people, interact with them, cooperate with them, deal and make deals with them. (and they don’t cozy up in fifteen minutes, it takes time and effort to build genuine trust)
This is reflected narratively too, through the bits and pieces the PC hears of the one who came before, as well as through certain events that can/have take place.
Even the endings reinforce the point of being but part of a group.
Road Warden is goated
The Age of Decadence is also a bit similar...
Love Road Warden!
That is not what the left supports. They are individually oriented and push getting their individual status at all costs
Oh damn, somebody else has played Roadwarden. That game is great and you can legitimately grow to love some of the characters and communities as a whole with their quirks, the sense of community it gives you is almost unparalleled, the only other time I remember caring so deeply about a whole collective of characters in an RPG was the group of Tieflings in Baldur's Gate 3, which was sadly done a little bit dirty in the third act with how few interactions they had compared to the previous 2 acts, where they were beginning to feel like my extended family
waitaminnit... The "Cloud District" is just the Jarl's castle??? I thought it was in like some other city that wasn't technically in the game. It's supposed to be a whole ass "district," isn't it? Not just a single castle... I have 1200 hours in this damn game.
@@EllaKarhu If Whiterun itself is an entire castle it would be pretty large compared to most historical castles. Not very defensive at all though, like all cities in Skyrim.
The gist is that the cloud district was intended to be larger and feature actual houses, but that was never implemented in game.
This is beyond the whole "this is a scaled down version of the real place in setting" excuse. There was an intent to actually implement more stuff, it just never happened for whatever combination of reasons.
i'm 5 minutes in and your style of commentary and delivery are so smooth. You are a great story teller with just enough flare to be engaging, but not overwhelming or cringeworthy. Thank you for your awesome work!
This reminds me of a conversation I've had with a friend when I was a child. I was playing Morrowind those days and they were playing Gothic II. They told me that you could only wear certain armour in certain social classes which confused me to no end as someone who had basically only played RPGs like Morrowind or J-RPGs.
(Bin nebenbei in den 90ern geboren und habe Gothic noch nie gespielt, die Staatsbürgerschaft ist also hinüber :(
Angesichts der anstehenden Wahlen ist das vielleicht gar nicht so tragisch...)
Ich bereite mich schon auf den Sch-Merz vor...
Ironically, it is illegal to wear guard armor in Vivec City. I always loved that, because it made the world feel a bit more real
@@crocodilegambit Ah, die "Willst du Krieg mit Russland sofort oder in ein paar Wochen" Wahlen. Viel Spass dabei alter. Wenn die Gruenen mehr Braun sind als die AfD, stimmt die Welt nett mehr. Bleibt nur die Rote Milf Fraktion ;)
Psssscht *reicht einen Spickzettel*
Ich glaub das war Siedler in der Bonusfrage ;)
'social' classes? also tthats still meh
This sounds interesting, what could he mean when he says the Gothic games have a distinctly German flavor?
Guard: "Halt!"
Ausweiss, papier bite.
When I hear that, my first instinct is to spin up my Venom gun. Thanks, Return to Castle Wolfenstein!
This is the first time I've run into your channel. Very good stuff! You're eloquent, you have a very pleasant voice, the humour is dry, the script is tight... for someone who enjoys video game essays, you are just about the best thing to be watching at 2am when I'm under no obligations to do something the next day.
2:07 IDK what you mean I've got my copy right here, funnily enough that exact same version. I am however still missing my copies of Fable, James Bond Nightfire, Pokemon Gold and Tekken 3 if you still have those lying around somewhere.
It's franky amazing how Piranha bytes managed to be so mediocre so long, you'd think they'll learn how to make decent games after so much practice
My interpretation is that they never understood what originally made them successful, so they just kept doing all of it in hopes it would simply work again someday.
Yeah, I bet it was an accidental success. At first I thought it's a shame that they have closed but then I realized they were making the same game over and over again for 20 years... so good riddance.
Gothic 3 was good.
Risen were disappointing.
Elex were... Heh, didn t even bother playing them.
@@etienne8110 Honestly, I liked Risen 1 for what it was. The first game they've made after losing the Gothic license and some troubled time as a studio with their dispute with their former publisher. It was very much a worse rehash of Gothic, but I had hope that improvements were coming... And then everything went downhill from there.
@Xalantor i have like no memories of risen 1.
Risen 3 is the one i played the most recently, and it was just garbage. It felt like a cheap imitation of gothic. Despite the better engine and graphics, the power levelling, the story and factions just weren t enticing. At least to me.
Only your fourth video in four years? Absolutely criminal. Your comedy is impeccable sir. I truly hope I will see more from you in the future, cause I think you got talent.
I'm impressed by how clearly you speak when your tongue is so firmly wedged in your cheek. 'Hopelessly pretentious' or not, this is very agreeably delivered. Wonderful.
One of my favorite quest caveats in G2 is that mercenary who challenges you to lift his axe, to gain his respect. Once you do, the proper choice is actually to... beat his ass with it, otherwise he'll cheat you. In a way, the sheer weirdness of that logic is, conversely, what makes Gothic feel more like an actual world, in comparison to Skyrim's happy-go-lucky attitude that shatters the whole illusion of believability.
Also, as a Polish person who both knows Gothic and can identify the Settlers "Yippee" sound, does that make me a honorary German? 🤔
Deutsche Staatsbürgerschaft is beantragt
Man, it was settlers!! Thanks for scratching that itch for me, I knew I've heard it before so any times, but couldn't say what it was - first I thought it was the imps from Dungeon Keeper, but those have a more shrill voice and more echo.
idk neither is believable dep ho u think
Do I have zero knowledge of either Gothic or Skyrim? Yes. Am I going to watch 45+ minutes of a German man explaining their differences? Also yes, apparently, because he's very good at what he does! Only 2k subs?? Criminally underrated!
Also, I salute your solid citations at the end of the video! And the music editing at the very end! Peak
2k at the time of your comment? It's at just over 5.1k right now. Well deserved.
So INCREDIBLY surprised you only had like, 2k subscribers! Your narration and voice over and insight is at the level I'd expect of people with hundreds of thousands! Excellent work!
Funny to think that Morrowind followed closer the Gothic formula, where you had to acquire social power and "convince" people to recognize you as the Nerevarine. It's so different from Skyrim. But now I know why I miss Morrowind-like (and Gothic-like) games.
Wow... this is only the first video I've watched from you (couldnt resist not to check out a new gothic videogame essay review :D) and I am happy to stay here and check out even the other stuff you have. You have a really soothing voice :D
Btw I strongly advise you to play KCD II when it comes out and all in all everyone who sees this comment
The part that interested me the most about this video and Gothic 2 is the way the outfits are actually tied into the gameplay and dialogue.
As a solo-indie dev myself, the core mechanic of my game is built around disguises and taking on different 'roles' when you change what you are wearing. I got a lot of my inspiration from the Hitman series, but not I have another game to look into.
How you earn the ability to look, and as a result be perceived by society in certain way seems like an untapped gold mine for making story based games.
Playing Gothic 2 right now for the first time. 20 hours in and I’m still exploring every bit of the map and goofing around in Chapter 1. I love both Skyrim and Gothic 1, but I can’t deny how ahead and peak Gothic is. Great video!
Spiders is probably gonna meet the same fate as Phirana Bytes soon.
Greedfall 2 isn't looking good, huh?
Ein wirklich klasse Video, mir waren viele der Ähnlichkeiten zwischen Skyrim und den Gothic Spielen noch gar nicht richtig aufgefallen.
Ich sehe es praktisch genauso wie du, dass ich beide Spiele aus unterschiedlichen Gründen genieße und ja, bei Gothic ist da eine große Portion Nostalgie dabei (auch ein bisschen schwer die nach über 20 Jahren nicht zu empfinden...)
Das ist das erste Video, dass ich von dir gesehen habe aber ein Abo bekommst du auf jeden Fall schon von mir, mach weiter so.
Thanks, almighty algorithm, for putting this in my feed. Excited to go through your backlog!
This video rocks. I appreciate the argumentative structure - I see a thesis and I see it defended. Keep this up, we need more content like this!
The Player Character was only JUST caught at the start of the game and his "crime" was being at the wrong place at the wrong time, by the time they got to any semblance of civilisation it was minutes away from being wiped off the map. Why in the world would the Whiterun Guards be looking to arrest you upon first contact, even more so when at this moment the Jarl has been doing everything in his power to remain completely neutral to the civil war
Add on to that, Balgruuf believes you because his housecarl had informed him beforehand of talk of a dragon attack, your words just confirms 100% what he's already been told due to you being there for the event. ("By the Gods, Irileth was right")
This is a great video. Really well-done editing, script, and super engaging structure. I really enjoyed it!!! Looking forward to your future videos too.
Having to deal with layers upon layers of people and their problems in order to progress both in power and through the game sounds just like an mmo, except the fictional npcs made by a writer are less strange than the real people you meet online
Totally agree that you see this way more in MMOs, at least with gear, but I would argue it varies from game to game. In WoW, I get a lot of my high-end gear from raids, in FF14, the high-end stuff you must buy from guilds through reputation points.
And gameplay is actually enjoyable, instead of "spend 400 hours before you can enjoy somewhere in the endgame".
It was a fantastic video - the comparison between 2 games worked super well to illustrate your point. Great job, subscribed for more. Gothic 2 was also my first RPG ever and it will forever hold a special place. Actually, I have quite high hopes for G1 remake because I replayed G1 recently and was shocked at how little content in dialogues and quests there was after the 1st chapter - pretty much all NPCs dont have anything new to say or to comment on the ongoing events in the second half of the game even when they should, so hopefully the remake will flesh this out and provide additional dialogue throughout the whole run for better immersion and additional quests.
I didn't even know I was subscribed, didn't recognize the channel name. I apparently found the Far Cry 2 video when I was binging content about that game and liked the video. Nice video.
This is a really amazing video my dude, it was thoroughly entertaining and really interesting!!
12:08 The game world of Skyrim DOES NOT "keep turning" without the player. Everything in Skyrim stagnates until you show up. And questlines exist in a vacuum. Nothing interacts with anything beyond the setpiece it exists in. Most side quests in Witcher 3 do the same thing, but there are some exceptions. Most side quests in Witcher 3 don't have lasting effects beyond the local area either, but THERE ARE exceptions. In Skyrim, there are very few exceptions, if any.
Are you sure about this though? NPCS do not go offline when the player is around, I think they end up following their daily chores and you can later encounter them in different places. I also encountered mobs fighting each other in the world a lot of times, granted probably not everywhere.
As far as I know, all Skyrim NPCs, except for those triggered by events, very much, as Ivan points out, have a daily routine that define where they are at any given time of day. You can even look these routines up in the Skyrim fan wiki. That is not the case in Witcher 3. But that's a technicality that game wouldn't even benefit from. Witcher 3 is awesome as is.
I actually think it might, I get people dying, usually by dragon, in cities I've never seen a dragon attacking pretty often.
@crocodilegambit Who cares? Nothing actually comes of it, it's not like there's an economy, gaining experience, some sort of political change, or anything else. It's just the gears of a clock [one which is very failure-prone] continuing to turn until the last mob kills the last non-essential NPC. The only, and I really mean the only, significance it has is if the player is a thief, and thus it's back to being dependent on the presence and action of the player.
@mortimerwake2974 It depends on the game. In the Stalker trilogy a life adds so much immersion. People you helped or let live can be encountered again. Wildlife hunts, random, emergent gameplay makes for the player encountering fights between factions, wildlife/mutants and anything in between, it's very fun, unpredictable, immersive and feels alive
Thank you for this video. As other commentors, I went and watched all of your other videos because of your profound and rigorous understanding and analysis of the social culture of videogames. I sincerely hope you take the blowing up of this video as the hint to make videos more frequently. We'll surely be here to support you :)
Have you tried Drova? It is the closest to the gothic formula that has released recently.
Video popped up on my feed, i like this. Great production value for a channel this size. it's gonna grow quick.
Gothic 2 is a game that is etched into my soul, but I always find it very hard to describe why to someone who hasn't played it. This video gave me a way to finally explain, so thanks for that!
Also, describing Xardas as Temu Saruman made me laugh out loud.
For anyone who wants Gothic, but less of a sausage fest I would recommend the Gothic 2 mod Velaya. I recently replayed it, it holds up really well and has some absolutely brilliant and hilarious writing.
Playing Elex after watching this and it’s giving me a lot to think about especially after finishing Horizon 2 last year. I’m charmed by how hostile the world is, the grumpy people and the flexibility of play. It’s not something I think I need all the time, but I’m surprised by how much I’m enjoying what outwardly seemed like a tough game to enjoy unless you had a history with Piranha Bites
Are you familiar with Drova? I feel they did a fairly good job with an unconventional presentation
As an American, and a TTRPG designer, I'm glad I stumbled on this video. I had never heard of Gothic, and it's a fascinating design space. I mostly know Skyrim by osmosis, so hearing how you can bee-line the main quest is interesting to know. (I've heard of low level runs where someone shows up to the final boss nearly naked, wielding a candle holder, and were able to win because the game scales with you.)
Remember seeing some clips of a player walking around naked, with NPCs alternating between mocking and offended in their chatter, but not really doing much else. Leaves me to wonder what would happen if you tried that in Gothic.
surprisingly interesting video from such a small channel, algo gambit paid off today lol
Thank you for explaining this unique feeling that comes from playing this brillant game also for non german/polish/russian people
That was a lovely vid, really interesting. I had never heard of Gothic but I'll be watching out for the remake.
Got randomly recommended this video by youtube and I have to say your writing and editing is all great
10:48 i think you give too little credit: they had reports about a dragon flying around (many people would have seen Alduin fleeing and the smoke from Helgen) and would be wanting news. Btw, as you enter the jarl's chambers, they *are* discussing the Helgen attack and saying they need more info on it. You are stopped by the chief of security with a sword in hand which only lets you speak with the Jarl once you explain that you saw it. Also, they had no way of knowing you were being executed or aiding Ulfric. Later, you took down a freaking dragon and absorbed its soul. I bet any jarl would be eager to keep you close.
Besides, you don't even help Ulfric escape. The man is literally off doing his own thing, whether you choose Ralof or Hadvar.
The general point I agree with though. A part of me does wonder what a version of Skyrim which focused more on making a grounded setting would look like. The pacing in general is just horrendous everywhere, you go from one thing to the next with barely any explanation or pause.
The Dark Brotherhood is, like, just about the only place that even tries portraying the mundanity of actually being a member of these factions.
@@thosebloodybadgers8499 I don't think the Gothic pacing makes much sense either. A town gets raised to the ground. A foreigner claims to have been there. Wouldn't you want to at least hear what he has to say? waiting for him to become the town mayor before giving him an audience is very game-y.
@@UlissesSampaio I think that comes down to your experience with bureaucracy, if you take it as lived experience i think you can see why german developers find it believable that even if something big is going on, their governmental apparatus is slow to move and react until someone/something with the proper authority forces it to move. Skyrim is the opposite where it constructs a situation for you the player to *feel* special, because where are the other people rushing off to warn whiterun? Anyone in riverwood could easily see the fire and hear the dragon roar. Or why not either of the soldiers you can pick to go with to escape helgen? Surely if either of them warned whiterun it would curry favor with their respective factions. Why is it specifically your character who gets to do so especially if they know of the danger happening in front of them? Gothic i think better lampshades this fact by making important people and guards laugh you off as a loon, cuz lets be real, Most people in society would laugh you off if you said there was some sort of ambiguous danger on the horizon but you had no real proof. Its still fun and exciting in skyrim though, but lets be honest also most players dont immediately rush to Whiterun, they get sidetracked for a good few hours then go to whiterun. It almost feels more narrative correct to show up with FUS than to not show up with it.
@Tojeaux_ but the jarl of whiterun knows about the destruction of Helgen, and iirc had rumors of dragons by the time you reach him. They just didn't have a first-hand report of someone who witnessed it (you, your mate, Ulfric are the only 3 survivors?). So someone, maybe coming from Riverwood, must have told him about heavy smoke from Helgen before the dragonborn arrives. He is actually discussing the destruction when you enter the hall, and you are stopped before reaching him by a soldier with sword in hand.
Thank you for this masterpiece of a video essay an for expressing what I love about Gothic and Kingdom Come.
Gothic 2 is my favorite RPG still, and nothing really compares sadly, except a polish overhaul mod of Gothic 2 (Chronicles of Myrtana: Archolos). The developers that were primarily behind Gothic 1 and 2 have long since left the company by the time of ELEX, so it is not at all surprising that they couldn't really capture back the essence.
Great video, it really seems like a game I would love ! It's so nice to talk you way through in an RPG so thank you for the discovery !!!
First Risen was very good, the series had potential and Phirania could return to glory with it, however they ruined everything with Risen 2. The game was too short, atmosphere was completely different (pirates and voodo!), they simplified already simple combat and leveling systems and they added very unbalanced guns.
Really like Risen. But I can remember all too well Adam Sessler bashing the game for being boring on Xplay. He was wrong, obviously.
Genuinely excellent video! I love your sense of humor, editing, core points, voice, all of it. Instant subscription!
Im about the 15 minute mark when you finally bring up your thesis, and it really clicks for me. So apologies if you do talk about the fallout games, but hearing you talk about these things really does hammer home the difference between Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas, with the latter being the direct continuation of Interplay's (then later Troika) ethos regarding fallout. While Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 are almost quintessential frontier stories, there is something about how your interactions with interweave all the different societies and communities in the wasteland, and how your invidualistic adventure has now ostracized you From community. In fallout 3 you're cut loose of your obligation to your community and find yourself on a self-serving question to find your last living relative. FNV starts you out as a Courier, someone who is perpetually on the road, but the endings put you on the path towards becoming something larger than just yourself. You join the NCR, join the Legion, fight for untarnished anarchy of the wastes. The game pushes you towards Community with its rather indepth faction system and costume system too. Interplay and Troika were like Eurojank studios in the US, the founders being quasi socialists who wanted to explore societal upheaval in a dark but hilarious manner.
Having finished the video now, i will say my fallout comparison certainly isnt perfect, but like you said its a continum, there are moments were your outsider status is questioned by the in game NPCs in all the fallout games, but rarely is it a hard roadblock outside of say FNV and trying to seek admission into the Legion camp but its not literally impossible. Very good video and i do agree that i would love to see more games take on this gameplay structure. Have you the player actually caring about your place in the world and in society and what it ends up saying and critiquing about that society.
Great analysis of the topic! I have to say I'm a bit surprised you haven't mentioned The Witcher (the first one, so far the only one I've played), which is both claimed by the devs and in my own experience a pretty good attempt at taking what was good about Gothic I & II, improving on it, and then building a Sapkowski-themed collectivist RPG around that. You can even see it in the structure of the game: divided into chapters, where chapters 1 & 2 are noir detective stories with fantasy veneers, then you rise up in society as a reward and gratification for your efforts and you navigate politics and some moderate dungeoneering, a bit of an intermezzo where you review your successes, get allies and such and a bit of a breather because you're finally at the top of the food chain, and then the last chapter, where the main storyline is resolved, is a bit of an afterthought of a dungeon so as not to drag too much. Because you were there for the noir and the politics, with adventuring only a side hustle.
Also, I've read so much from Piranha Bytes about how much inspiration they took from Ultima Underworld that I have to play it one day (as someone who's never played any Ultima) and look for any similarities.
No this genre of game didn't die (thank goodness). Drova is a fantastic 2d Gothic game, and I hope more studios follow suite and make their own Gothic-likes. I am however going to miss Piranha, as I have a lot of fond memories of their games.
Bery nice video.
BTW, little known fact: Apart from getting the farmer's clothes, the merchant's permit, the alchemist's herbs or bribing the guard, you can also just run around the city, jump into the ocean and swim into the harbor. Best thing about it: If you do this, your old friend Lares, who is standing at the harbor will actually comment on it.
That was the attention to detail, PB put in there. :)
While I'm a Morrowind-kid and will always hail this game as the best one to ever bless earth with its existence, it was ultimately Gothic that made me want to make a game myself one day. There's just so much to be loved about it and so much jank to cut out.
Randomly had this video in my recommended, 5 minutes in and I am sold on the channel, take my sub
Cool! Very interesting classification for the game. I did enjoy it being a social simulator in a fantasy world. I have the same approach to the dubbing, but I'm used to the Polish one, which is so excellent for a long time in my childhood I was sure the game was Polish.
It's actually refreshing to hear that the Polish dub is excellent!
@@crocodilegambit Yes, simmilar to what you said about the German original, the polish dub has sneaked it's way into polish gamer lingo. I actually love the game so much I got a tatoo of Uriziel in the ore pile. It's definitely a cult classic over here,
I always thought one of the main reasons Gothic II never made it big in america was because the english sub was so bad. Now hearing the polish sub is excellent, makes me wonder why they actually managed to nail one and fail at the other. Or maybe the whole tone was easier to translate to polish people than to americans because of culture?
This was excellent. Couldn't stop watching. Superb editing.
I'm only 15 minutes in, but I think I can already get your point. And while you probably talk about it later, it instantly screams "This is why having developers from different regions and perspectives is so important", because Skyrim SCREAMS "American" from every pore. Skyrim is how we basically see the world, a society that technically exists but if it doesn't cooperate with you, forget about it, you are what matters. Society and authority are stupid and just want to hold you back, but really they should see how exceptional you are and reward you. I, personally, never plaid Gothic as an American where it wasn't as big, but it's so huge within that specific ARPG space that I know a good amount of the series just through osmosis, and it definitely comes across as more...European. The idea of an individual mattering more than all of society is laughable, even the highest authorities had obligations and responsibilities that constrained them and controlled their life just as much as they did. It gives a very different feeling, because empowerment isn't JUST on your own terms, it's is necessarily within the terms of society as well.
Now to watch the rest and see if it swerves in a completely different direction.
Good point! It never occured to me how the philosophy of gothic was so different than the TES games, partly because its been almost 20 years now since I played gothic 2. I really like how he emphases that both design philosophies make interesting games. Its not about one being better than the other, but both are good in their own way and it is nice to have both. Sad that the "collectivist" design philosophy is so rarely found nowadays.
Im always a bit sad that some german classics like gothic or sacred never made it big in america. I believe the one of the main reasons is that they had problems translating the dialogues into something that slaps as hard as the original lines
Bro pls make more videos. You are such a good creator and fun to listen to
Haha, YT knows me well. Always up for another video on my beloved, Gothic.
Thanks for your video. I never played Gothic (a bit allergic to fantasy-like settings and real-time combat) but really enjoyed watching the video and learning about your perspective. I hope I can adopt some of the ideas in my game one day.
Have you tried Enderal? Skyrim by a German dev could be a powerful synthesis here. Or a flop. But more skyrim is always nice
I always describe Enderal as Skyrim meets Gothic meets Mass Effect. I literally thought "These devs have absolutely played Gothic" while I was playing it, and that was before I realised the devs are German.
I recommend Enderal to literally everyone, it's one of my favourite games and I think it's because it understands that a hero is merely the spokesperson for a much more concerted effort
Enderal is an experience to be sure. Very good power scaling, great story (even if a bit contrived in some points), and an INCREDIBLE soundtrack. An absolute achievement in modding
What an incredible piece of media you created! Gothic and Gothic 2 are still my favorite games of all time. Played both back in 2004 and i still go back to them as nothing came out to this day that achieves the same kind of immersion and world building. I'd beckon you to try a few gems worth your time if you haven't already: Gedonia, Hard to be a God, Outward and the first Dragon's Dogma. All pretty unique and some similarities to Gothic here and there. Keep up the good work!
What's sad is that Bethesda has made an RPG quite close to this - or maybe rather, striking a nice balance between this and the "cowboy" RPG - and it was called... Morrowind.
Yet again Bethesda can't stop falling down.
I was getting the same out of Skyrim and Oblivion that I was getting from Morrowind without any problems.
I think, some people take games too literally and don't moderate their own experiences, instead absorbing whatever the game throws at them as is.
Like, I never took Skyrims "ur a dragon" narrative seriously because that simply not something interesting for me. Like, mkay, so I did the story, and that's fine. This didn't change my awareness of myself in relation to the world, and the game accomodated that. Skyrim doesn't hammer in a narrative you don't want to engage in. You can work your way your become the head of the thieves guild, and then become a lowly servant of the mages just fine and frolick around harvesting herbs for the potions. The disjointed feeling of the world that Bethesda's games are famous for allows you to be whoever you want to be and play in whatever way you want.
Gothic though heavily moderated your experiences, and you couldn't really be whoever you wanted. I remember feeling way more like "ur sO sPeCiAl" in Gothic than in any Bethesda's rpg, even though it's possible that comparing them literally should produce the opposite result
@NJ-wb1cz people engage roleplaying games as though they are like other genres and just do whatever they can to consume content. it is pretty sad. like you said, people need to moderate their own experiences, this is especially true in sandbox rpgs (and sandbox games in general), just consuming games to get more hour per dollar seems like a terrible way to play anything imo.
@@rainbowsorceress2082 I dunno, given the popularity of Skyrim I think many people are doing that just fine. There's some silent majority that doesn't produce massive essays about games but simply plays them, and I think Skyrim is one of those universally recognized games that are popular all over the world, not just in "individualistic" countries.
That's just overreacted. Where do thry "keep" falling? Because of ONE game? That is an entire differenr behemoth because they need to mix their specific rpg genre with a space game, which they made pretty well even? Skyrim is a different RPG. A deep RPG? No, and it doesn't need to be. They have different goals, and want an alife game centered around you. While gothic is a linear short game with different goals. Just as witcher, whixh has no real world that is anywhere near as alive as skyrin. You take YOUR madeup experiences and want to make it up like bethesda made the worst, while it's thw opposite. They are quite amazing really, and their status and money proves it.
@@Giro-u2c Where did they fail? Just their most recent game Starfield, where they quite literally failed to live up to even the standards of their own 14 year old game in terms of world building, quests and characters, just to name a few things. Also every single game since Morrowind where they eroded meaningful choices and consequences of your actions with every single entry. You or even a huge number of people liking their games is no testament to their quality. Lots of people like McDonalds, doesn't make it good food.
Thank you for this. It, along with my memories, has illuminated my understanding of game design.
Come to think of it, this is in large part what I enjoyed in Assassin’s Creed 1 and 2. It’s built on almost exactly the same structure, except that you’re _forced_ to infiltrate all the factions because you’re part of a secret extra faction, you’re an assassin.
The different hiding techniques, correct disguises, etc. for each faction’s region and the power of each faction really played a big role in making the jungle gym fun.
In AC1 it’s Crusader and Templar dominated, blue-gray Acre, where fighting and acrobatics are best, vs. yellow-green Caliphate Damascus, where the crowd will protect you, vs. yellow-red Assassin Masyaf vs. white-orange Jerusalem, where your best bet is to not be seen at all.
AC2 is brown-and-white Florence, where running away and hiding yourself is king; Blue, cramped, watery Venice where Courtesans and Thieves will get you anywhere; wide-open, green Tuscany, for mercenary skirmishes and horseback escapes; and eventually pristine, marbled Rome, for all of the hardest final Templar challenges.
Mate I don't know where you got this, but AC1 doesn't work like this at all. Whenever you complete a set of assassinations, you gain notoriety and the guards become more alert, it's not dependent on cities, it's dependent on how far along in the game you are and it's the same for all 3.
@ yeah…? Because the plot of the game is that you ingratiate yourself with the factions to assassinate somebody high up the social ladder. Each city has different traversal and blending mechanics that make it easier to get to your target and that the guards are better or worse at countering through slight AI tweaks and level design.
Especially in AC1 there’s a lot of “curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal” moments.
PS I got it from playing the game.
Edit: on reread, I’m wondering if you thought I was implying there were different notoriety levels in the different cities? Which, in AC1, AFAI Can Recall there aren’t, just different levels of guard AI in different sections of each city that you progressively have to get through. Each city absolutely does have different strengths in guard AI though, I remember that Jerusalem’s guards were particularly vulnerable to social blending, and Acre’s were vulnerable to approaches from above.
@@thesquishedelf1301 I've played through the game like 10 different times throughout my life, you don't ingratiate yourself with any factions whatsoever. And the transversal and blending in each city is exactly the same with the only difference being beggars or crazy people trying to break your cover in the poorer districts, depending on the city. Other than that, you walk slowly and hit the blend button, walk with scholars, sit on benches. Same everywhere.
I get the feeling (could be wrong) English isn't your first language so maybe you're just not explaining yourself well, but what you're saying is pretty much incorrect or very poorly worded.
@ Guess we just have very different experiences with the game. My 3 playthroughs all left me with distinct impressions in each city, with level design and guard AI making them easier to fool with different tactics in each. I distinctly recall Crusader guards in Acre being particularly belligerent, except for a brief window immediately after an assassination in Damascus; and I guess “ingratiate” _was_ the wrong word to use, although you absolutely _do_ build up trust with specific members of each community in order to acquire necessary information.
English is my first language by the way, so uhhhh… thanks for the vote of confidence, jackass. It’s impolite to say that even to ESL students who are struggling. Maybe you’re grappling with my vocabulary use, or the fact it’s hard to argue against you without repeating myself?
@thesquishedelf1301 Well, since you decided to be unpleasant, perhaps you should be mad at yourself for articulating your thoughts like an acephalous monkey with a keyboard. Whatever tactics you think you had against different factions were imagined, guards work in tiers and Templars are on a different tier from a common city guard, they can be found everywhere, they're like special bosses or collectibles, they're not city dependent. Basic guards, bruisers etc are the same from city to city, only reskinned. If we had different experiences in these regards, you must have been playing a pirated version.
And don't blame me for your innability to argue your point effectively.
Ngl this video deserves atleast 100k more view, keep up the good work!
Check out “Drova - Forsaken Kin”. A 2D sprite based Gothic-like that’s gaining some recognition.
This video was great and I was aghast when I saw you had only a few before this. How dare you! Make more awesome videos!!!
Russians seems to love Gothic too, a lot
It feels like home to us
yea, it was quite huge before the '10s hit! Now it's mostly forgotten by younger players and remembered by more adult ones.
This is my first time seeing this channel. Excellent video. Lookin forward to more.
Bro, first of all - this is an amazing video. Good script, narration and editing.
But after you talked so much about "lost art" - did you even heard about "The Chronicles of Myrtana: Archolos"? I'm playing it right now, and feels like real "Gothic 3" that they robbed us. Give the game a few hours(It's free on Steam) and maybe make a video about it? As a fellow Gothic fan, it would be amazing
Idk why the algorithm brought me here (maybe via Kenshi videos), but my lord, I am truly blessed by our computer gods. The contrast between the quality of editing and the subscriber count is criminal. Fantastic video brother.
i miss bargain bin shovelware RPGs man
Two Worlds? Fantasic. Kingdoms of Amaleur? Insane.