Gordon Strachan found a style of play that was successful domestically and (relatively) successful in Europe but we were absolute murder to watch. Going to watch us at CP domestically under WGS was honestly a chore at times. Give me Strachan's football in Europe any day BUT not if it bleeds in to the domestic stuff. So this is the conundrum Brendan Rodgers faces. He is a highly paid coach, one of the highest paid in Europe, and it really shouldn't be beyond his wit to be able to field a Celtic side that is capable of beating St Johnstone 6-0 and also going away to Dortmund, Atalanta, Aston Villa & Dinamo Zagreb and coming away with at least a credible defeat or maybe a point or three on occasion. No-one expects us to win the CL or win all 8 of our fixtures. At the start of the campaign most Celtic fans, when earmarking what games we can target to get 10+ points, had Dortmund away down as 0pts. So it's not about the fact we lost the game, it's about the manner of defeat. The game was over as a contest by HT. That just isn't good enough no matter how you slice it. Dortmund have better players than Celtic and should beat Celtic at home more often than not BUT they are not 5-1 at HT better than us.
Individual blunders and two daft penalties certainly did not help our cause. Maeda caused two goals alone by barging into AJ,'s man causing a situation where AJ could not defend his man properly. On the other goal, he brought the ball infield where three Dortmund players were situated. Perhaps the crowd had an effect on our players also.
@@den264Our back line was in the Dortmund half we were so high up it was ridiculous , we were absolutely set up to fail against a rapid Dortmund attack. The worst thing is Rodger’s didn’t alter it to even save a bit of face. At least drop a bit deeper at 3-1 to keep it respectable.
This podacast, unlike others I watch, is lucky to have at least one member who understands how football is played. Thanks Melly, for explaining to us all what actually happened against Dortmund. Emotional responses have their place but your analysis of what actually happened on the night was accurate and will, at the very least, help me to watch the game against Atalanta with a bit more perspective.
I totally agree with the fact that the players completely shat it. One moment that wasn't spoken about, that reflected it, was 2nd half, Kuhn got the ball on the break 1-on-1 with the left back, and where in the league he drives at the player and beats them, he did a sort of shot/cross from 35 yards out, which rolled into the keepers arms. Basically a pass back. That's a total lack of confidence in your ability. I'm not one for 'old fashioned british football', but we have needed athletes in our team for years. I don't think we ever really replaced Wanyama, and at this level, you need a player like that because we don't have Xavi or Iniesta at CM. We have wee guys with decent ability at best. We need some strength & speed. Times we have competed in Europe, that's what we had.
A Celtic side, once full of dreams, Gave way to Dortmund’s ruthless schemes. Losses piled as they chased in vain, On that field, they felt the strain. Rough defense, their hope unraveled, In Dortmund’s grip, they soon traveled. The goals kept coming, fast and sure, Humbled, Celtic could not endure. Match of dreams became a blight, Beaten, outshone by Dortmund’s might.
Once CCV gets back to full fitness and young Valle gets some more games, we will be more stable at the back. And if only we can eliminate these individual gaffs like getting sent off and handing the oposition soft penalties, things will improve.
We looked beat coming out the tunnel before a ball was kicked , exposed in multiple areas of the park ,was obvious even to an aul ejit like me who does not know much about tatics etc that after going two and three one down that we were out of our depth and brendan needed to change it up during that period to limit the damage being done !! We are not demanding we win the CL just to stand up and be counted up against some of the big guns would be nice . Great show lads 🇮🇪😉
A trained a boxer for years right, and he was knocking out all the local guys, winning club competitions here there and everywhere until finally, he’s in line to fight a top ten guy in the world, so a decided to keep the same game plan from the last KO win against Wully McNaebdy; but at the end of round 3, ma fighters got like, 4 teeth left and he’s had his nose punched clean off his body so, the clear advise at that stage is “stick to the game plan” and “just keep doing what your doing” … then round 6 ends, his jaws snapped in half and he keeps calling me Adam when ma names Shaun, so at this point a tell him “that’s it bro, keep it up” and “a wanty see more of that in the next round” … round 9 ends with him actually being punched clean out of his shoes and his gum shield landed in someone’s drink - watching my boxer stagger shoeless to the wrong corner, i shouted him over, eventually having to physically steer him back to his stool … watching him slurring his words about something that happened during lunchtime in 2nd year; i look deep into his eyes, his dead, cloudy, blood clotted, stomach curdling eyes, and I said “look son … a want ye to go out there and do exactly what you’ve been doing, stick to the game plan” … I wrestled his shoes back on and forced the gum shield into his broken mouth, he climbed up and stumbled forward, smiling at the referee, I’ll never forget round 10 of that fight … I still go and visit him every 2nd week, that is when he’s not screaming or biting, of course … but if there’s one thing I learned from this time in my life, it is that no matter what happens, always stick to the plan, stick to what you believe, never change or adapt - Ever! No matter the cost, even if it destroys everything you’re trying to achieve. HH.
refreshingly simple one this, everything melly said is correct. jamie is in the very comfortable position of knowing his theory is never going to be tested. if we tried to park the bus and got beat 2-0 or 3-0 it would look abject and pathetic from us (yes like goodwin’s aberdeen) and everyone would complain about how we didnt even try to “give them a go”. not saying a 7-1 is tolerable, it isn’t, but there was nothing inevitable about that, we had a bottom 10% performance on the night and they had shots from everywhere going in and 2 penalties.
Brilliant pod and nearly all points made valid to an extent. We were all on a roll together- turns out we were chasing a spanking…reality bites. Got asked by a colleague who is a Milan fan what’s a good result. I said getting out of there with a score under a 2 goal defeat would be good. Just don’t want our morale wrecked- too late 😂
It's a concern that players or backroom staff can't or won't speak up against BRs tactics. At 15 mins in, platers like Calmac must have thought here we go. At that point, should he have nodded to the gaffer to change something on the hoof
I think Melly's point about Callum McGregor and Brendan Rodgers both saying that they tried to change the tactics was overlooked a bit. That to me shifts the blame more but not completely onto the players for not being able to follow instructions under pressure. I'm not the most football literate guy on the planet so it was certainly hard to see the different tactics in the game as we are getting pasted. Very enjoyable pod, keep the hail 💚
What Stephen said is accurate. Celtic sit in our comfortable little bubble here in Scotland. We scud teams on the regular, without ever coming under serious pressure from athletic, skilled and tactically astute opposition. When we do come up against the European elite, and they press, with multiple runners, finding pockets of space, and with supremely gifted athletes, we have no blueprint with which to revert to. BR must devise a way of coaching the team to play in Europe, whilst remaining dominant in Scotland and playing attractive attacking football. That’s not easy! Great podcast guys 👏🏼
Europe is a tough 🌰 to crack, when weeks in weeks out we play against inferior opponents, can we even park the bus if we don’t play like that at all. Ange and Brendan theory is that the only way to get better is to get enough experience with the same group of players playing in this competition repeatedly, I can stomach a thrashing now and then if it means the squad gains enough experience to be better.
I'd like to experiment with sitting in a low block and trying to hurt them if on the counter. Maeda and Kyogo have the pace to hurt teams if we get a ball out to them when teams are not set.
I live in Germany. Got a ticket for crazy money, drove to Dortmund for 6 hours after school (I am a teacher). Arrived 20 minutes before kick off, stood among the Dortmund fans, felt embarressed among the Dortmund fans, who couldn't believe how EASY this was. I left with my head down, as If I did something wrong, disappointed someone... drove home 5 hours. slept one hour, back to school, taught, while getting stick from the students =) I live here, I know the Bundesliga, I know Dortmund. Unfortunately they are NOT that great. This is on Rodgers and his hubris and one thing he does forget, the reputation damage for Celtic is immense. So yes, I rather lose 3-0 too, but tbf I think Rodgers will change, he just won't admit that he will. Last but not least: Would I do it all over again? Unfortunately yes. HH
Rangers defeated Dortmund over two legs a few seasons ago. They did by playing a system which frustrates the opposition and sometimes their fans, but regardless ! They still managed it. Why are we as a club not taking notes.
I thought CalMac had a similar game vs BVB that he does for Scotland, whereby he's trying to make things tick completely against the run of play, which unless you are Modric or someone, and your team mates can respond quick enough, can't work for Celtic. Add to that, CalMac hasn't looked the sharpest recently and the rest of the team just couldn't cope with the pressure the short passes was placing on them...
Was one of the most bizarre games I’ve ever witnessed. I think it’s impossible to critique it was just so bad ..15 mins in we totally fell apart , collectively had a melt down , shat our pants , call it what you will but totally crippled us mentally and physically and left me thinking I’m watching my sons under 10s down the park it was that bad .. Don’t actually know how good they are as it will be the easiest shift they will ever have . Whatever the formation , sit in or have a go , , if your bottle smashes 15 mins in you are going to get battered big style . My biggest problem he didn’t do anything drastic when the writing was on the wall .
The 7-1 result is mostly down to rodgers imo. There is nothing wrong with knowing when you're up against it and altering the approach. These results are not uncommon under rodgers they are the opposite, a constant worry its will happen. Surely rodgers knows now that calmac can not play .6 himself away in europe, same applies for taylor. Its different in the spfl and home against slovan. I agree the players shat it, but mostly because they were set up wrong and within 5 mins, they all knew that its a losing battle. How can lennon & strachan both have better records in europe? They both knew to sit in against better teams. When we defended a 1-0 lead in ibrox and changed to sit in and ride it out we didnt complain? In fact we praised the different side to the team, so how is it ok for the league but not europe? Normally i agree with melly but he has had a mare in this episode with his points for me.
When strachan said that it was after England beat us. He realy meant that Scotland hasn’t got big guys that can go 100m in ten seconds. Ie Kyle walker. He knew he had to word it that way. Couldn’t the just say we need big Jamaicans like England 👍
A bit of a reality check was required. I think we all felt confident and rightly so on the back of our season so far but it's a huge jump up. You see teams like Sparta Praha dominate domestically and then go away to Stuttgart and draw. They adapt and change, we should do the same
Unfortunately many of our fans get over confident through drinking too much. As a long time teetotal man I tend to keep my feet on the ground prior to facing top European clubs in their own backyard. I feared going into this game last Tuesday bearing in mind how poor our away record is in this competition.
I went to Dortmund for the game and noticed the same thing after 5 mins....this is going to be a long night. Engels can play DM, he can even play RB he should have been deeper in beside Cal to give the back 4 some added protection. The gaps and the space afforded to Dortmund was hilariously bad but the most worrying thing for me (and something you guys touched on) the players absolutely shat it. Ive never seen individual errors punished quite so much in any game ive watched, that nervousness just permutated across the full team and it was our undoing. It didnt help that ONCE AGAIN CCV was injured for crucial champs league games....I was almost half expecting the Bitton music to play and him to strut out
Taylor was abysmal from start to bring hooked. Unfortunately we were without our rock at the back and his replacement was too inexperienced for such a night.
You can't press quality teams like that in the gung ho fashion we did against dortmund. To me the players lost their heads, i dont think anyone is suggesting we play 6 at the back and park the bus but a bit more of a sensible approach when teams like dortmund are in our half, keep it tight and be hard to break down. The amount of unforced errors was criminal too, that's 100% on the players
So basically it's acceptable getting beat by 5 or 6 goals by any team? Jeez. No, that should never be accepted by any fan base especially with a club the size of Celtic.
@@20MinuteTims 34 minutes in one of you asks another "If we get smashed by Dortmund, Atalanta, Villa do you think this is the way to play?" The answer given was "it depends on what the results are in the other games". This is basically saying it will be ok as long as we qualify. Also it was stated that it was a "perfectly reasonable argument" that we don't care about getting smashed by five or six goals as long as we qualify. I realise that this may not be your individual opinion by the way. I just disagree that this opinion is reasonable.
With Melley on this one. Far rather play like we do and have these games from time to time. No way should we be ripping up the highly successful game plan for 3 games in Europe every season.
Even with that wrong team in the wrong shape against Dortmund one change at 1-1 would have helped. Getting CM to stay goalside and close to Brandt. Then pull wide players back 10 yds and it would not have got to 7.
you can't say these heavy results are rare. not after the bayern opening result . inequality is wider in modern football. not even between top clubs and us but between us and teams below us. and with the larger league, get used to a lot more of these results in every match day.
God bless him, Jamie's not taking this well. He's two bad results away from recording out of the back of his hatchback, living off tins of cold beans with an unkept beard 🤣 it's ok, mate, we've been shite in Europe for years. I don't see that changing anytime soon.
I would have felt a lot better if BR had just held his hands up and said this one is on me. Instead he said he wouldn't change a thing and it comes down to their players controlling the ball better not making mistakes and taking their chancesband our players doing the opposite. Doesn't bode well for the Atalanta and Leipzig games as they are better teams than Dortmund imo. Felt sorry for the players thought they were badly let down by manager.
I think the team and manager were possibly overconfident going into the Dortmund game after a good start to the season and Champs League. Dortmund also hadn't had the best of starts. You could tell within 5 mins though that the team couldn't handle their forwards running at/ through the defence
Also there's no way BR came back just to win this league again, he also moaned repeatedly about the quality needed to compete in Europe then goes out and played the exact same tactics that has failed him repeatedly in the past! On top of all that why didn't he employ the same tactics when he won the FA cup against Chelsea?
We dont do tactics that include our opposition, which at the top level is madness our tactics are focused on us and what we can do an we believe if we do it no team has a chance. Its naive we ahould be going into these games having our plan but also a plan out of possession that stops the others teams flow be it mark there string puller slow down the play and fustrate. We are too honest in europe we have to be cuter so does rodgers
Our bad form last season and our two worst performances this season had 2 things in common, big cam missing. I don’t think we realise just how much he makes us tick to be honest
I don't think the Dortmund result was down to formation or approach to the game. Individual errors and mental collapse of the players was the major factor.Dortmund are a better team, but no matter the formation, we should not be beaten 7-1
Look, upset is about having an expectation versus reality mismatch. People went into the Dortmund game with fiercely unrealistic expectations. The lesson is adjust expectations. It isn't that we should, on a 4m SPFL prem prize pot, compete with a 400m+ rated Borussia Dortmund squad. There is a wider context here of the rest of our season. What we do is important and changing the message for 4 or 5 games compromised the player's identity, and squad composition, in approach to games. BR AND Ange have both talked about this publicly. We will occasionally get a Barca/Tony Watt moment against teams with comparable squad valuations but that is Roy of the Rovers stuff and will be the exception. Fellow Celts, go in hope NOT expectation. Bratislava, Dinamo Zagreb, Young Boys, Brugge, those are the teams, if we get hounded, the squad and manager should be judged against. At the draw Celtic v Dortmund (AWAY!!) was, according to transfermarkt, 471.6m euros v 106.75m. Adeyemi, if he isn't already, he will be a superstar. To get a favorable result, we needed in that situation, to go in full strength (CCV out) against a team ravaged by injury (they weren't), low form, who concede a pen (they didn't), got a red before half time (they didn't) and did all that at home or neutral ground (it was at their home stadium). Guys, 15 of their players are valued between 15-40m euros and 5 of them at 40m euros. Adjust your expectations, hope for a result, celebrate the results, but DO NOT expect them with that chasm in squad valuations. We manage a club with 90m+ running costs with comparatively no TV revenue. The best manager in the world with our resources would struggle to get results with those circumstances. To have a chance our record signing would have to be over £11m and most of the 16 players turning out on the night would need to be well over £11m. Criticism all you like, you don't get McLaren F1s for neighborhood bogey money. It'd even help if we had the resources to hold onto our best -players rather than be forced to sell them to float out budget. Imagine that game with.. top of the dome: Forster Frimpong CCV VVD KT Wanyama O'Riley Engel Roberts Dembele Jota Subs: Schmeichel, Starfelt, Ajer, Taylor, AJ, McGregor, Armstrong, Christie, Kuhn, Kyogo, Edouard ... we simply cannot do that with our TV deals. Football is about romance, we hope for it, I hope for it... but people need to stop expecting it. Unless you can convince everyone to wildly increase our Sky Sports/TNT/Prem Sports subs shares, then you need to convince them that their Celtic TV sub, the Celtic tops, the season tickets increasing in price by x4 is OK and good, results like the Borussia Dortmund, the 7-0 v Barca, the 9-0 v PSG, result will happen. Bad news is Leipzig 's squad valuation was even bigger at the UCL draw. The problem is how finance is distribute din the TV deals. The table is tilted to the big 5 leagues and the bigger teams in those leagues. For all the 'per capita best supported league in Europe' of it all, Scotland's league is nowhere in that top 5 league table. The problem is neoliberalism not the board, not Dermot Desmond, not BR, not the players. It's a politics and economics problem not a football problem. Look at any side of your life and ask yourself this: if you buy the best and your pal can spend four times as much on the same type of product, assuming neither of you gets ripped off, which person do you expect to have the best product? TV, car, house, whatever. x4 get the better product. Football is about romance, we hope for a positive result, I hope for it... but people need to stop expecting it against teams with multiple times our resources who are playing competitive football. HH
@@jackjones1249 It's not an excuse, this category error pisses me off. It's not an excuse, it's a reason. Excuses are looking at thing you don't like and figuring out a rationalization as to why it's ok, what this is a reason. With a reason the result is subsequent result of the circumstances, a consequence not a a mental rationalization of bad results. Ross county got beaten and I'd argue that that 500k player v a £5m player is less of difference in the moments that matter than a £5m player versus a £40m player. County would have been beaten 20-0 by Dortmund even as a team that more often has a 10-0-0 approach to domestic games. Who are County playing in Europe? Have they EVER played in Europe? Exactly.
@@marknugent9851 Lol stop with the nonsense excuses. 🤣Rodgers made a mess of the set up and the players played like amatuers. Its not about how many Dortmund would score aginst county ffs. Its the fact county managed to keep the score down against a much better team playing in a defensive set up. If real madrid and arsenal can set up more defensive against certain teams then its just an excuse that celtic need to play a high press away from home.
@jackjones1249 two of yous are right imo which is the problem lol county game is domestic smaller teams have more confidence playing bigger teams domestically. On the flip side small teams in Europe on occasion get results against bigger teams. Luck is always involved tho not just tactics look at the barca game they should have had 10 goals that night but we had the rub of the green look at xavi miss kicking a ball coming out the sky from a forster kickout that lead to the watt goal lol we need to create our own luck by being tough to beat to begin with. Rodgers having never been a player or having played in Europe plays a part in this I think. Last year to beat lazio we needed to change tactics especially because we had players out and he still went Into it with the same game plan but not the right players to play it an we got beat 2-0 off a poor lazio team that we should have beat at home before that but rodgers bringing on a not fit/ready ccv gives the ball away an we concede in the last min in the home game. Rodgers pre match was being honest he said a few time no matter the result I back my players an to me it was Luke a defeatist attitude coming from him before the games even begun
Whats the point of qualifying to the knockout stage if we dont find a way to play against better teams?. If the Dortmund game was a two leg knockout the tie was over in the first half. I find it laughable that better managers and better teams than us can play more than one way but we continue to make excuses and make the same mistakes.
I canny abide Keith jackass but he did write an interesting column, about BR doing the pragmatic approach with his Leicester side playing Man City ...and they ended up winning 5-2. So he does have some experience of changing his tactics
I don’t get why we don’t try slow down the game kill the pace out the game take our time with throw ins free kicks take a couple yellow cards just make it a horrible game ye don’t need to change your system todo that we are too nice a team at times
If it happens again then Rodgers can walk!The tactics in the Dortmund game were awful, he could have changed the team but didn’t! The midfield was terrible and I was disappointed when we didn’t sign a proper no.6 because it’s glaring that we miss a ball winning midfielder!
If we lose to Atalanta and Leipzig will those 3 straight defeats damage us that much mentally that we might not get results against Brugge, Zagreb and Young boys?
Pep can spend millions and it's only to get 1 more goal than arsenal in a cup final. In the same way celtic need to break their transfer record to make a 7-1 defeat a mere respectable 5-0 defeat. We're not special. a lot of clubs have to live with this. if you want more games to be more evenly matched, drop out the champions league and give up the 30m windfall. if you're not a shareholder it absolutely makes sense
The Celtic squad cost £69m. The Dortmund squad cost £268m. They have a different quality of player. Why would we think we can approach them as equals? Rodgers needs to learn some humility and pragmatism in his approach to these games.
athleticism comes more from money at club level. maybe in the national team it's more to do with genetics and migration where diversity is truly your strength . belgium has a better team than scotland because movement across central europe gives them more options than scotland on the periphery of europe
@@20MinuteTims Ano mate an I get that but it’s a result we all want to move on from, it was brutal and it’s a hard watch dissecting that night again. Enjoying the channel anywayz mate, all the best with it 👍🍀
Gordon Strachan found a style of play that was successful domestically and (relatively) successful in Europe but we were absolute murder to watch.
Going to watch us at CP domestically under WGS was honestly a chore at times.
Give me Strachan's football in Europe any day BUT not if it bleeds in to the domestic stuff.
So this is the conundrum Brendan Rodgers faces. He is a highly paid coach, one of the highest paid in Europe, and it really shouldn't be beyond his wit to be able to field a Celtic side that is capable of beating St Johnstone 6-0 and also going away to Dortmund, Atalanta, Aston Villa & Dinamo Zagreb and coming away with at least a credible defeat or maybe a point or three on occasion.
No-one expects us to win the CL or win all 8 of our fixtures.
At the start of the campaign most Celtic fans, when earmarking what games we can target to get 10+ points, had Dortmund away down as 0pts. So it's not about the fact we lost the game, it's about the manner of defeat. The game was over as a contest by HT. That just isn't good enough no matter how you slice it.
Dortmund have better players than Celtic and should beat Celtic at home more often than not BUT they are not 5-1 at HT better than us.
Individual blunders and two daft penalties certainly did not help our cause. Maeda caused two goals alone by barging into AJ,'s man causing a situation where AJ could not defend his man properly. On the other goal, he brought the ball infield where three Dortmund players were situated. Perhaps the crowd had an effect on our players also.
@@den264Our back line was in the Dortmund half we were so high up it was ridiculous , we were absolutely set up to fail against a rapid Dortmund attack. The worst thing is Rodger’s didn’t alter it to even save a bit of face. At least drop a bit deeper at 3-1 to keep it respectable.
We were all hyped up on the hope juice before the game, in fairness.
This podacast, unlike others I watch, is lucky to have at least one member who understands how football is played. Thanks Melly, for explaining to us all what actually happened against Dortmund. Emotional responses have their place but your analysis of what actually happened on the night was accurate and will, at the very least, help me to watch the game against Atalanta with a bit more perspective.
It always worries me the damage these defeats do to our season. I’d rather we park the bus against teams we know we can’t beat.
We never knew we couldn’t beat Dortmund,now we know against atalanta we can’t do the same,BR needs to switch it up
I totally agree with the fact that the players completely shat it. One moment that wasn't spoken about, that reflected it, was 2nd half, Kuhn got the ball on the break 1-on-1 with the left back, and where in the league he drives at the player and beats them, he did a sort of shot/cross from 35 yards out, which rolled into the keepers arms. Basically a pass back.
That's a total lack of confidence in your ability.
I'm not one for 'old fashioned british football', but we have needed athletes in our team for years.
I don't think we ever really replaced Wanyama, and at this level, you need a player like that because we don't have Xavi or Iniesta at CM. We have wee guys with decent ability at best.
We need some strength & speed.
Times we have competed in Europe, that's what we had.
Small framed athletes dont fair to well in these types of games. One of the Dortmund defenders was three inches taller than AJ
A Celtic side, once full of dreams,
Gave way to Dortmund’s ruthless schemes.
Losses piled as they chased in vain,
On that field, they felt the strain.
Rough defense, their hope unraveled,
In Dortmund’s grip, they soon traveled.
The goals kept coming, fast and sure,
Humbled, Celtic could not endure.
Match of dreams became a blight,
Beaten, outshone by Dortmund’s might.
Once CCV gets back to full fitness and young Valle gets some more games, we will be more stable at the back. And if only we can eliminate these individual gaffs like getting sent off and handing the oposition soft penalties, things will improve.
The best Celtic team in my lifetime played with 3 CB’s
different time though, and better CBs. Our CBs outside of Cameron Carpet Slippers are pretty rotten, don't need to put three of them on the pitch.
We looked beat coming out the tunnel before a ball was kicked , exposed in multiple areas of the park ,was obvious even to an aul ejit like me who does not know much about tatics etc that after going two and three one down that we were out of our depth and brendan needed to change it up during that period to limit the damage being done !! We are not demanding we win the CL just to stand up and be counted up against some of the big guns would be nice . Great show lads 🇮🇪😉
A trained a boxer for years right, and he was knocking out all the local guys, winning club competitions here there and everywhere until finally, he’s in line to fight a top ten guy in the world, so a decided to keep the same game plan from the last KO win against Wully McNaebdy; but at the end of round 3, ma fighters got like, 4 teeth left and he’s had his nose punched clean off his body so, the clear advise at that stage is “stick to the game plan” and “just keep doing what your doing” … then round 6 ends, his jaws snapped in half and he keeps calling me Adam when ma names Shaun, so at this point a tell him “that’s it bro, keep it up” and “a wanty see more of that in the next round” … round 9 ends with him actually being punched clean out of his shoes and his gum shield landed in someone’s drink - watching my boxer stagger shoeless to the wrong corner, i shouted him over, eventually having to physically steer him back to his stool … watching him slurring his words about something that happened during lunchtime in 2nd year; i look deep into his eyes, his dead, cloudy, blood clotted, stomach curdling eyes, and I said “look son … a want ye to go out there and do exactly what you’ve been doing, stick to the game plan” … I wrestled his shoes back on and forced the gum shield into his broken mouth, he climbed up and stumbled forward, smiling at the referee, I’ll never forget round 10 of that fight … I still go and visit him every 2nd week, that is when he’s not screaming or biting, of course … but if there’s one thing I learned from this time in my life, it is that no matter what happens, always stick to the plan, stick to what you believe, never change or adapt - Ever! No matter the cost, even if it destroys everything you’re trying to achieve. HH.
refreshingly simple one this, everything melly said is correct. jamie is in the very comfortable position of knowing his theory is never going to be tested. if we tried to park the bus and got beat 2-0 or 3-0 it would look abject and pathetic from us (yes like goodwin’s aberdeen) and everyone would complain about how we didnt even try to “give them a go”. not saying a 7-1 is tolerable, it isn’t, but there was nothing inevitable about that, we had a bottom 10% performance on the night and they had shots from everywhere going in and 2 penalties.
Exactly right ✅️
Brilliant pod and nearly all points made valid to an extent. We were all on a roll together- turns out we were chasing a spanking…reality bites. Got asked by a colleague who is a Milan fan what’s a good result. I said getting out of there with a score under a 2 goal defeat would be good. Just don’t want our morale wrecked- too late 😂
It's a concern that players or backroom staff can't or won't speak up against BRs tactics. At 15 mins in, platers like Calmac must have thought here we go. At that point, should he have nodded to the gaffer to change something on the hoof
I think Melly's point about Callum McGregor and Brendan Rodgers both saying that they tried to change the tactics was overlooked a bit. That to me shifts the blame more but not completely onto the players for not being able to follow instructions under pressure. I'm not the most football literate guy on the planet so it was certainly hard to see the different tactics in the game as we are getting pasted. Very enjoyable pod, keep the hail 💚
What Stephen said is accurate. Celtic sit in our comfortable little bubble here in Scotland. We scud teams on the regular, without ever coming under serious pressure from athletic, skilled and tactically astute opposition. When we do come up against the European elite, and they press, with multiple runners, finding pockets of space, and with supremely gifted athletes, we have no blueprint with which to revert to. BR must devise a way of coaching the team to play in Europe, whilst remaining dominant in Scotland and playing attractive attacking football. That’s not easy! Great podcast guys 👏🏼
new merchandise---20 minute tims always throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Good podcast, overestimated great form in the SPL is enough for levels in the CL. We all do it 💙
Europe is a tough 🌰 to crack, when weeks in weeks out we play against inferior opponents, can we even park the bus if we don’t play like that at all. Ange and Brendan theory is that the only way to get better is to get enough experience with the same group of players playing in this competition repeatedly, I can stomach a thrashing now and then if it means the squad gains enough experience to be better.
How bad was Greg Taylor?
Always exposed at that level. Give Valle a proper run now.
Algorithm comments baby, that was a very balanced/reasoned listen after a long week
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Melly makes great points on formations. Good insight
I'd like to experiment with sitting in a low block and trying to hurt them if on the counter. Maeda and Kyogo have the pace to hurt teams if we get a ball out to them when teams are not set.
I live in Germany. Got a ticket for crazy money, drove to Dortmund for 6 hours after school (I am a teacher). Arrived 20 minutes before kick off, stood among the Dortmund fans, felt embarressed among the Dortmund fans, who couldn't believe how EASY this was. I left with my head down, as If I did something wrong, disappointed someone... drove home 5 hours. slept one hour, back to school, taught, while getting stick from the students =) I live here, I know the Bundesliga, I know Dortmund. Unfortunately they are NOT that great. This is on Rodgers and his hubris and one thing he does forget, the reputation damage for Celtic is immense. So yes, I rather lose 3-0 too, but tbf I think Rodgers will change, he just won't admit that he will. Last but not least: Would I do it all over again? Unfortunately yes. HH
Rangers defeated Dortmund over two legs a few seasons ago. They did by playing a system which frustrates the opposition and sometimes their fans, but regardless ! They still managed it. Why are we as a club not taking notes.
Should have parked the bus till half time when we were 3-1 down and tried to regroup.
I thought CalMac had a similar game vs BVB that he does for Scotland, whereby he's trying to make things tick completely against the run of play, which unless you are Modric or someone, and your team mates can respond quick enough, can't work for Celtic. Add to that, CalMac hasn't looked the sharpest recently and the rest of the team just couldn't cope with the pressure the short passes was placing on them...
Shouldn't be losing 7...I can accept losing but not like that
Was one of the most bizarre games I’ve ever witnessed. I think it’s impossible to critique it was just so bad ..15 mins in we totally fell apart , collectively had a melt down , shat our pants , call it what you will but totally crippled us mentally and physically and left me thinking I’m watching my sons under 10s down the park it was that bad .. Don’t actually know how good they are as it will be the easiest shift they will ever have . Whatever the formation , sit in or have a go , , if your bottle smashes 15 mins in you are going to get battered big style . My biggest problem he didn’t do anything drastic when the writing was on the wall .
The 7-1 result is mostly down to rodgers imo. There is nothing wrong with knowing when you're up against it and altering the approach. These results are not uncommon under rodgers they are the opposite, a constant worry its will happen.
Surely rodgers knows now that calmac can not play .6 himself away in europe, same applies for taylor. Its different in the spfl and home against slovan. I agree the players shat it, but mostly because they were set up wrong and within 5 mins, they all knew that its a losing battle. How can lennon & strachan both have better records in europe? They both knew to sit in against better teams.
When we defended a 1-0 lead in ibrox and changed to sit in and ride it out we didnt complain? In fact we praised the different side to the team, so how is it ok for the league but not europe? Normally i agree with melly but he has had a mare in this episode with his points for me.
When strachan said that it was after England beat us. He realy meant that Scotland hasn’t got big guys that can go 100m in ten seconds. Ie Kyle walker. He knew he had to word it that way. Couldn’t the just say we need big Jamaicans like England 👍
A bit of a reality check was required. I think we all felt confident and rightly so on the back of our season so far but it's a huge jump up. You see teams like Sparta Praha dominate domestically and then go away to Stuttgart and draw. They adapt and change, we should do the same
Unfortunately many of our fans get over confident through drinking too much. As a long time teetotal man I tend to keep my feet on the ground prior to facing top European clubs in their own backyard. I feared going into this game last Tuesday bearing in mind how poor our away record is in this competition.
I went to Dortmund for the game and noticed the same thing after 5 mins....this is going to be a long night. Engels can play DM, he can even play RB he should have been deeper in beside Cal to give the back 4 some added protection. The gaps and the space afforded to Dortmund was hilariously bad but the most worrying thing for me (and something you guys touched on) the players absolutely shat it. Ive never seen individual errors punished quite so much in any game ive watched, that nervousness just permutated across the full team and it was our undoing. It didnt help that ONCE AGAIN CCV was injured for crucial champs league games....I was almost half expecting the Bitton music to play and him to strut out
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When the captain shits it and causes the penalty it's pretty much curtains for anyteam
Taylor was abysmal from start to bring hooked. Unfortunately we were without our rock at the back and his replacement was too inexperienced for such a night.
The pressing wasn't together, the passing wasn't good enough and positioning was off.
The heads dropped after the penalty.
You can play a 4 5 1 with cm,s not pressing so high,still looks like a 4 3 3 with less of a high press
You can't press quality teams like that in the gung ho fashion we did against dortmund. To me the players lost their heads, i dont think anyone is suggesting we play 6 at the back and park the bus but a bit more of a sensible approach when teams like dortmund are in our half, keep it tight and be hard to break down.
The amount of unforced errors was criminal too, that's 100% on the players
So basically it's acceptable getting beat by 5 or 6 goals by any team? Jeez. No, that should never be accepted by any fan base especially with a club the size of Celtic.
How on earth did you get that from this?
@@20MinuteTims 34 minutes in one of you asks another "If we get smashed by Dortmund, Atalanta, Villa do you think this is the way to play?" The answer given was "it depends on what the results are in the other games". This is basically saying it will be ok as long as we qualify. Also it was stated that it was a "perfectly reasonable argument" that we don't care about getting smashed by five or six goals as long as we qualify. I realise that this may not be your individual opinion by the way. I just disagree that this opinion is reasonable.
With Melley on this one. Far rather play like we do and have these games from time to time. No way should we be ripping up the highly successful game plan for 3 games in Europe every season.
Even with that wrong team in the wrong shape against Dortmund one change at 1-1 would have helped. Getting CM to stay goalside and close to Brandt. Then pull wide players back 10 yds and it would not have got to 7.
you can't say these heavy results are rare. not after the bayern opening result . inequality is wider in modern football. not even between top clubs and us but between us and teams below us. and with the larger league, get used to a lot more of these results in every match day.
God bless him, Jamie's not taking this well. He's two bad results away from recording out of the back of his hatchback, living off tins of cold beans with an unkept beard 🤣 it's ok, mate, we've been shite in Europe for years. I don't see that changing anytime soon.
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Can the podcast address the match Stuttgart Sparta Prague. Sparta are everything we are not on probably half the wage bill.
I would have felt a lot better if BR had just held his hands up and said this one is on me. Instead he said he wouldn't change a thing and it comes down to their players controlling the ball better not making mistakes and taking their chancesband our players doing the opposite. Doesn't bode well for the Atalanta and Leipzig games as they are better teams than Dortmund imo. Felt sorry for the players thought they were badly let down by manager.
I think the team and manager were possibly overconfident going into the Dortmund game after a good start to the season and Champs League. Dortmund also hadn't had the best of starts. You could tell within 5 mins though that the team couldn't handle their forwards running at/ through the defence
We had a good start to CL this season because UEFA have let in teams even worse than us.
Bhoy's you have a great show, but a week later is not for me so I'm switching off for this one...see you in the next one
Also there's no way BR came back just to win this league again, he also moaned repeatedly about the quality needed to compete in Europe then goes out and played the exact same tactics that has failed him repeatedly in the past! On top of all that why didn't he employ the same tactics when he won the FA cup against Chelsea?
We dont do tactics that include our opposition, which at the top level is madness our tactics are focused on us and what we can do an we believe if we do it no team has a chance. Its naive we ahould be going into these games having our plan but also a plan out of possession that stops the others teams flow be it mark there string puller slow down the play and fustrate. We are too honest in europe we have to be cuter so does rodgers
Our bad form last season and our two worst performances this season had 2 things in common, big cam missing.
I don’t think we realise just how much he makes us tick to be honest
You cant beat that phrase "shat it".. id like to see that being translated into Japanese and German etc 😂
There just isn't a more eloquent way of putting it.
I don't think the Dortmund result was down to formation or approach to the game. Individual errors and mental collapse of the players was the major factor.Dortmund are a better team, but no matter the formation, we should not be beaten 7-1
Look, upset is about having an expectation versus reality mismatch.
People went into the Dortmund game with fiercely unrealistic expectations. The lesson is adjust expectations.
It isn't that we should, on a 4m SPFL prem prize pot, compete with a 400m+ rated Borussia Dortmund squad.
There is a wider context here of the rest of our season. What we do is important and changing the message for 4 or 5 games compromised the player's identity, and squad composition, in approach to games.
BR AND Ange have both talked about this publicly. We will occasionally get a Barca/Tony Watt moment against teams with comparable squad valuations but that is Roy of the Rovers stuff and will be the exception.
Fellow Celts, go in hope NOT expectation.
Bratislava, Dinamo Zagreb, Young Boys, Brugge, those are the teams, if we get hounded, the squad and manager should be judged against.
At the draw Celtic v Dortmund (AWAY!!) was, according to transfermarkt, 471.6m euros v 106.75m.
Adeyemi, if he isn't already, he will be a superstar. To get a favorable result, we needed in that situation, to go in full strength (CCV out) against a team ravaged by injury (they weren't), low form, who concede a pen (they didn't), got a red before half time (they didn't) and did all that at home or neutral ground (it was at their home stadium).
Guys, 15 of their players are valued between 15-40m euros and 5 of them at 40m euros. Adjust your expectations, hope for a result, celebrate the results, but DO NOT expect them with that chasm in squad valuations.
We manage a club with 90m+ running costs with comparatively no TV revenue. The best manager in the world with our resources would struggle to get results with those circumstances.
To have a chance our record signing would have to be over £11m and most of the 16 players turning out on the night would need to be well over £11m. Criticism all you like, you don't get McLaren F1s for neighborhood bogey money. It'd even help if we had the resources to hold onto our best -players rather than be forced to sell them to float out budget. Imagine that game with.. top of the dome:
Forster
Frimpong CCV VVD KT
Wanyama
O'Riley Engel
Roberts Dembele Jota
Subs: Schmeichel, Starfelt, Ajer, Taylor, AJ, McGregor, Armstrong, Christie, Kuhn, Kyogo, Edouard
... we simply cannot do that with our TV deals.
Football is about romance, we hope for it, I hope for it... but people need to stop expecting it.
Unless you can convince everyone to wildly increase our Sky Sports/TNT/Prem Sports subs shares, then you need to convince them that their Celtic TV sub, the Celtic tops, the season tickets increasing in price by x4 is OK and good, results like the Borussia Dortmund, the 7-0 v Barca, the 9-0 v PSG, result will happen. Bad news is Leipzig 's squad valuation was even bigger at the UCL draw.
The problem is how finance is distribute din the TV deals. The table is tilted to the big 5 leagues and the bigger teams in those leagues. For all the 'per capita best supported league in Europe' of it all, Scotland's league is nowhere in that top 5 league table. The problem is neoliberalism not the board, not Dermot Desmond, not BR, not the players. It's a politics and economics problem not a football problem.
Look at any side of your life and ask yourself this: if you buy the best and your pal can spend four times as much on the same type of product, assuming neither of you gets ripped off, which person do you expect to have the best product? TV, car, house, whatever. x4 get the better product.
Football is about romance, we hope for a positive result, I hope for it... but people need to stop expecting it against teams with multiple times our resources who are playing competitive football. HH
Ross county did fine against us with a fraction of the budget. Stop making excuses for humiliating defeats as thats part of the problem.
@@jackjones1249 It's not an excuse, this category error pisses me off. It's not an excuse, it's a reason.
Excuses are looking at thing you don't like and figuring out a rationalization as to why it's ok, what this is a reason. With a reason the result is subsequent result of the circumstances, a consequence not a a mental rationalization of bad results.
Ross county got beaten and I'd argue that that 500k player v a £5m player is less of difference in the moments that matter than a £5m player versus a £40m player. County would have been beaten 20-0 by Dortmund even as a team that more often has a 10-0-0 approach to domestic games.
Who are County playing in Europe? Have they EVER played in Europe? Exactly.
@@marknugent9851 Lol stop with the nonsense excuses. 🤣Rodgers made a mess of the set up and the players played like amatuers. Its not about how many Dortmund would score aginst county ffs. Its the fact county managed to keep the score down against a much better team playing in a defensive set up. If real madrid and arsenal can set up more defensive against certain teams then its just an excuse that celtic need to play a high press away from home.
@jackjones1249 two of yous are right imo which is the problem lol county game is domestic smaller teams have more confidence playing bigger teams domestically. On the flip side small teams in Europe on occasion get results against bigger teams. Luck is always involved tho not just tactics look at the barca game they should have had 10 goals that night but we had the rub of the green look at xavi miss kicking a ball coming out the sky from a forster kickout that lead to the watt goal lol we need to create our own luck by being tough to beat to begin with. Rodgers having never been a player or having played in Europe plays a part in this I think. Last year to beat lazio we needed to change tactics especially because we had players out and he still went Into it with the same game plan but not the right players to play it an we got beat 2-0 off a poor lazio team that we should have beat at home before that but rodgers bringing on a not fit/ready ccv gives the ball away an we concede in the last min in the home game. Rodgers pre match was being honest he said a few time no matter the result I back my players an to me it was Luke a defeatist attitude coming from him before the games even begun
Whats the point of qualifying to the knockout stage if we dont find a way to play against better teams?. If the Dortmund game was a two leg knockout the tie was over in the first half. I find it laughable that better managers and better teams than us can play more than one way but we continue to make excuses and make the same mistakes.
I canny abide Keith jackass but he did write an interesting column, about BR doing the pragmatic approach with his Leicester side playing Man City ...and they ended up winning 5-2. So he does have some experience of changing his tactics
Interesting
I don’t get why we don’t try slow down the game kill the pace out the game take our time with throw ins free kicks take a couple yellow cards just make it a horrible game ye don’t need to change your system todo that we are too nice a team at times
If it happens again then Rodgers can walk!The tactics in the Dortmund game were awful, he could have changed the team but didn’t! The midfield was terrible and I was disappointed when we didn’t sign a proper no.6 because it’s glaring that we miss a ball winning midfielder!
If we lose to Atalanta and Leipzig will those 3 straight defeats damage us that much mentally that we might not get results against Brugge, Zagreb and Young boys?
And if we can't qualify with statisticly the easiest fixtures what does that say about us?
Depends on the manner of those defeats I'd say.
@@georginho2121 pack it in I reckon
Pep can spend millions and it's only to get 1 more goal than arsenal in a cup final. In the same way celtic need to break their transfer record to make a 7-1 defeat a mere respectable 5-0 defeat. We're not special. a lot of clubs have to live with this. if you want more games to be more evenly matched, drop out the champions league and give up the 30m windfall. if you're not a shareholder it absolutely makes sense
The Celtic squad cost £69m. The Dortmund squad cost £268m.
They have a different quality of player.
Why would we think we can approach them as equals?
Rodgers needs to learn some humility and pragmatism in his approach to these games.
Dont push a centre mid to press their centre backs and leave 3 v 2 in midfield.
Biggest mistake on the night tactically
We can't do anything because we don't have a DMF or very very good defenders
Jamie, calm down, stop interrupting!
athleticism comes more from money at club level. maybe in the national team it's more to do with genetics and migration where diversity is truly your strength . belgium has a better team than scotland because movement across central europe gives them more options than scotland on the periphery of europe
Same tactics as against st Johnstone it can’t be done at that level
What went wrong was the usual you never beat a team that your large underdogs against the last time was Lazio what about 6 years ago
Would Melly take Jamie in a fight?
Against karate?
Nothing went wrong ,the team just isn’t anywhere near that standard yet.
"The best Celtic community on the internet" you say ...are you having a laugh?
Nope!
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So fkin embarrassing mates! We have to redeem ourselves somehow or this will haunt us
Kind of wild that Taylor was only subbed at HT cos he was injured and not for his performance
We could've made all 5 subs at HT if it was based on performance.
A ctrl-alt-delete at half time
Would be quicker to ask what went right? Answer: nothing. End of pod.
Commenting
ALGORITHM
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Are we live?
Not live.
7 minute tims. What you know and what you claim to know are two very different things.
Your view of your club isn't grounded in reality. That's the issue.
Fair
Guys why are we still talking about this a week later?? ..it was a horrible result any Celtic fan is obv sick of hearing about, move on jeezuz..!
That's fair. But we can't just ignore a defining result in the season.
@@20MinuteTims Ano mate an I get that but it’s a result we all want to move on from, it was brutal and it’s a hard watch dissecting that night again. Enjoying the channel anywayz mate, all the best with it 👍🍀
Tactics all wrong given the opposition.
A turned it off at 40 mins didn't even get too half time