Why I won't Plant Red Osier Dogwood Again | Dream Farm w/ Bill Winke
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- While Red Osier Dogwood (or Redosier Dogwood) may be one of the most preferred browse plants by whitetail deer, I am not going to plant it on my farm any more. I talk about the simple reality of trying to grow something for the deer to eat while still protecting the deer from eating it! That is a tough goal to balance. I am out of the Red Osier game after just two years!
Bill, you could overwhelm the deer by planting cuttings. 18 inch stems with a 45 degree angle cut. Clip and stick them straight in the ground. I plant a few thousand each spring and have over 50% success rate. No shovels, no roots to mess with. Btw, 65 deer per sq mile is a HIGH density in most parts of North America. On my farm in north central WI we have 20 to 30 deer per sq mile. Even then the deer hammer to the ROD but they cannot get it all. The grouse and turkey also love it. Keep planting. Just use cuttings. You could plant 1000 in one morning. Very easy.
I agree. I planted 500 or so along a stream bed and had about 75% success rate. However, the deer density is around 25-30 per square mile. I wouldn't even know what to even think if I had a deer population of 65 per square mile.
I will keep planting 50 every year until I am 100% sure that the survival rate is not sufficient. Planting 50 is not hard as we can do that in just a couple of hours. Regarding density, keep in mind that most of this farm is cover and the terrain is steep so a square mile here would be about 1.3 square miles if it was pounded flat. So the deer are still pretty well spread out here. If it was open with limited cover and flat, then 65 deer per square mile would seem like a lot more.
@@bill-winke Same here Bill. Steep as steep can get in WV. Boy, I sure wish we could pound it flat, or even just down to rolling hills. Steep terrain has its disadvantages, but huge advantages as well if you hunt it correctly. In fact, I've found steep terrain the very best deer hunting of all. Just need to learn how to hunt it.
Basically you need the red osier to get a couple years of establishment before unleashing the deer on them. 2 years has been rule of thumb.
Also, instead of using a cage, You could use natural caging to keep deer off them like a felled tree top. What I like to do is keep a couple stock plants close to the house so I have a regular supply of cuttings to replace and just stick in the ground should I choose to. Once these things establish, their growth is tremendous. I do the same with other species that do well with cuttings.
Agreed. I planted most of my 500 cuttings inside two felled trees, some of which I dropped on purpose to protect the cuttings for the first couple of years.
I guess I am blessed...I have the stuff growing everywhere on my farm. High, low, and in between. Some areas are so thick I have to mow it down. They love the mowed areas and nip nearly every tip in the winter time. It seems to spread on its own too. It makes fabulous food for cold and long winters in Maine. The moose love it too. I encourage you to keep trying to establish a large area of it as it will pay dividends in the long run. Rabbits and other critters like to use it for den areas too. Very grateful for the hardiness of the bushes in our very cold Maine winters and the benefits for our wildlife. Cheers and good luck with your plan.
I ALWAYS cage in the trees I plant.
No matter if the deer density is not that high, they will still browse on them a lot as they really like to eat them and they will find them.
And the browsing from the deer will either kill them or at least keep them back so much that they either become bad trees or they develop and grow VERY slowly.
I make sure to cage them in and I kill all plant competition around them in a 2 yard circle as well for some year till they become large enough and strong enough for me to remove the caging.
Then they can withstand the browsing and compete well against other plant growth around them.
Then I often make sure to give them a bit of fertilizers for a few years to give them a great boost.
By doing all this you gain many years of great growth compared with trees that you just plant and "forget".
Yes, it means more work and more cost, but in the long run will it be cheaper and you have extremely more success with your trees.
Totally worth it in my opinion.
When it comes to planting something like the dogwood, then I think you need to plant them pretty dense in places where you fence in the whole area with an electric fence and keep it like that till they have developed enough to hopefully cope with the browsing from the deer.
I totally agree that fencing in every single of them and keeping them fenced in all the time is a bad idea.
That would not look and feel nice at all.
Bill red osier is a great winter food source unlike apples being late summer early fall. Cage some to get em going then take cuttings and plant. Its a numbers game but worth it.
That makes sense, but our deer did eat the apples into the winter as there were tons on the ground in the area with all the wild ones. But you make a good point regarding the cuttings. If I can get some to establish, I will try populate the farm in much bigger scale with cuttings.
Man that's a lot of work for the results. Hopefully the deer find something else to eat for a while and the dogwood can get bigger and better established. At least the plants are mostly still alive. If I had done it they would all be dead I'm sure lol. Thanks for all the hard work and information!
What I have found is if you can take a tree top from something you have cut down and put the tree top over the dogwood it will protect it for a year or two before it breaks down. Then it’s out paced the deer and takes off like crazy
This is exactly what I do. Quick and easy
We do this to protect young white pine. If the deer can't easily walk up to it they're not going to waste their energy
That is great advice. Thanks Mike. I appreciate the input.
Agreed! I use free Christmas trees from everyone around me.
All I can say is good luck with it and thanks for the update. Lots to learn from on this episode from comments too.
I agree. The comments ended up being more useful than my discussion.
Ha! I wouldn't go that far!
I watched the video with interest. Used to own deer land but don’t anymore. No more planting or cameras. I archery hunt public river bottom land now. You sometimes have to deal with competition but I scout a lot and focus on knowing the deer woods better than others. I find it challenging and I like the freedom from work, worry, trespassing,etc. Different mindset now but enjoyable. I enjoy hearing your honest and pragmatic opinions on deer, shooting, and the outdoors.
Thanks Jack. I totally get your new pursuit. The more land you own, the less time you have for hunting because the land improvement projects (and just the normal maintenance) cuts into hunting time. We didn't even get out turkey hunting this spring because we were always working on planting something, or cutting something. The upside of owning land is more than just the hunting opportunity though. In fact, the real reason I own land is because I just love land. The deer are just an excuse for owning it. Some people love cars and collect and renovate them. I love land. Have a great day.
I tubed 150 this year. And plan to keep them on for 3 years. Just like a tree. Told that works well. Got big root stock too.
Thanks Nic. I will revisit this subject every year so please let us know how this is working.
I wonder if that density changes in the different seasons of the year. You would think mid may through mid October it would be lower. But increase towards November.
- I am thinking about more wild plum. I planted a bunch of willow in hinge cut tree tops and in a clear cut in the brush piles. Big rock trees did a video on it and I believe it is working as well as the fenced off areas
I’ve done thousands of red osier cuttings, lower Michigan. They must be caged for 2-3 years then they will out grow the browse. Apples trees need caged longer than that. But uncaged you are definitely fighting a loosing battle. Awesome to see your experience to learn from.
Thanks for the comment Jake. I appreciate it. Have a great day,.
I agree and have had the same results with Red Osier Dogwood and have discontinued trying to grow it. We have concentrated on planting bareroot apples trees and have had great success.
I love apple trees. I like looking at them, I like eating them and I like the fact that after they get established the deer can eat the apples every fall without me having to babysit the trees. I think they are a good part of any well managed property, even if you aren't a deer hunter.
Great video bill. I planted a bunch of red osier this spring. I put the fabric dryer sheets on mine wirh a ziptie. Get the ones in a purple box. A guy who ow s a apple orchard told me thats what they do and the deer dont seem to bother them
Interesting. I will try that on a few to see if it works here. It is a cool home remedy. Thanks for sharing.
I had some apple trees thst wasnt able to be caged and the left them alone until late winter then they nipped the tips off. I think if i was to put a sheet on every 6 months it would work. They do have a smell to them
Agree Bill, the juice doesn't seem to be worth the squeeze. Best return on investment I've ever done was to brush hog openings- whatever's already there, weeds etc..., spread lime, fertilize lightly, & brush hog again in late August, leaving some brush uncut as cover- it's lazy & cheap but it works. I do this every year on one of my properties, & it always surprises me on how well it brings in deer & turkey.
Great information. Thanks for the video. Please be careful while out there with the snakes and the ticks.
Thanks Steve. I see plenty of both, but northern Iowa is not nearly as bad for ticks as southern Iowa. I am so lucky that I never got Lymes disease while living down there. I would pick off at least 15 embedded ticks every year down there. Up north it is more like two per year. Regarding rattlesnakes, we have them on the farm. I have seen several. I am more worried about the dog when it comes to snakes than me. The rattlers rarely strike unless you really provoke them - and I can see Bentley really provoking one!
@@bill-winke Yes, that is a problem with the dogs. At least you hear the rattles from the rattlesnake. What about copperheads? I live here in Virginia. We have plenty of both.
@@stevesly1285 No copperheads here - just timber rattlers. I see them here (usually about one or two per year, sunning on the rocks), but so far the dog has not had an issue.
Jeff sturgess has been writing about caging your dogwood I believe since the mid-90s
I understand, but my point is that on a farm this size I don't have the time to micro manage browse. I need to focus on doing things that bring good change but nature does the hard work. That is why I plant acorns instead of trees. Let nature do the work. So with that in mind I will plant only things I don't have to cage unless it is a few scattered trees such as fruit or chestnut. TSI and burning need to be my best tools to create large amounts of quality browse. Not planting stuff I have to cage.
I tubed my red osier dogwoods for first 2 years to get established. I pulled tubed this spring. Testing to see how much they are browsed during summer but definitely think I’ll have to cage through next 2-4 yrs to fill in
I think so too. I think you will have to leave the cage forever and just let the deer what comes outside the cage. Or, I do believe they will eat them down to the stems each year like they did mine. Good luck.
If you don't cage, try Plantskydd-a bloodmeal product you apply directly to foliage & buds 2x a year, per the label. I established a 3 acre thicket of 3 species of dogwood-including red osier, and some viburnums. It's an awesome habitat plot now.
Good update on these plantings Bill! Would you consider spraying a grass specific herbicide around these plantings to remove that grass competition or are you using that more as a cover so they don't find and kill everything?
Alex, I am afraid that if I kill off the grass now that the red osier would be even easier for the deer to find and wipe out. It is a tradeoff between growth rate reduced by the grass or growth rate probably stopped by the deer.
@@bill-winke understood, I was wondering if that was a part of the strategy. Overall, which shrubs WILL you plant more of?
I planted a 5 gallon bucket (~100+) from cuttings, and bought 50 bare root from the conversation district this spring and all are doing well on my 40 acres.
We will revisit this subject again next year and you can give us your update a year in. How they survive the winter will be the real test because the deer didn't really touch mine until the winter and following spring (this spring).
How long were your cuttings and did you do it before they started to leaf out?
@alexpinnow6509 50 were bare root (dormant) the 100+ were started the leaf out in a 5 gallon bucket before I planted.
You're absolutely right--something that instantly becomes "deer salad" is going to be a lost cause. I have the same problem with native Hazlenut trees I've planted. Unless caged, they get eaten down to the stems. So yeah, you might cage a few just to have some in a good spot?
Northeast OH… I’ve found that for some reason, there is a point where the plant gets big enough it will do ok without a cage. This doesn’t make total sense to me because the deer still have the time and appetite to shred a larger shrub…. but in practice the shrub eventually wins. So I take that cage and rotate it to some other red osier that needs protection. I also like to put them along the pond bank where I run cages lengthwise to protect multiple shrubs, and then let the pond protect the other side. I haven’t given up on ROD yet, making decent progress in the past 5 year, having good luck with planting cuttings too.
Edit: for me, the plant starts to win once a good portion of it is above browse height. Also, the bigger diameter the cage the better.
Somehow I got unsubscribe from your channel bill!? I don't know how that happened!? We can't be having all that! I made sure I resubbed! I got some ROD cuttings growing now that I plan on planting this fall, definitely a eye opening video, but I have heard that they are very difficult to get established, I have about 30-40 small plants that I plan on caging in groups, hopefully they do alright with some protection! I know Jeff stergous from whs said the same thing you did, they have to be protected! Good video Bill!
Thanks for resubbing! You should be fine if you cage them. The site may be important to the long-term health of the planting, so look for areas with moist soils and good sunlight. Good luck.
I should count my blessing that a couple of my hunting spots are loaded with this stuff. Still don’t have the deer numbers like Iowa. I think I’m around 20-25 per sq mile according to MDIFW
I have to cage anything to get it to survive, so I’m going to pick shrubs with the highest browse preference which will spread by suckering and eventually the seeds will spread by the birds. ROD is great, but it needs protection for 2 years. I use weed mats and a cage.
Bill,not to change things,but do you perform the coppice method in areas,with primarily maple trees,and oaks?It is a primary food scource up here in the Northwoods.
We did that with our 78 acres of CRP. We only killed a few species, specifically the ones the deer won't eat (namely ironwood). The elms and pignut hickory we left the stumps alive. Good input.
A good strategy for me has been to “cage” the ROD with tree tops from trees I’m thinning out. You have all that red cedar you want gone…throw them on top of your plantings and by the time they break down, the ROD will be established.
That is really good advice Derek. I had not thought of that. I have done a lot of TSI here and need to do tons more. So there are lots of tops to hide the little trees in.
We also use natural cages made of cut multiflora rose and Chinese privet. Finally found a use for invasive species.
@@johnmanganello4551 That is a really good idea John.
That's too bad it didn't work as well as hoped. I too have been looking at planting apple trees. I have planted around a 30 tree orchard with semi-dwarfs and know they have to be caged or the deer will tear them down I've personally had that happen. There are still full size apple trees available and that's what I plan to plant I will cage them until they get fairly large. The problem I had with the semi-dwarf trees is the bucks rubbed and pushed them over but growing full size trees should eliminate that. Plus they carried quite a bit more fruit and require little pruning. Schlabach's nursery in Medina New York has the full size apple tree root stock they can graft apple trees too.
Thanks Stivey. I appreciate the comment. You pretty much have to cage high dollar trees like apples and chestnut etc. You aren't planting tons of them so you have to make each one count. Good luck.
If you can spend the $$ you can install a poly mesh wire fence, plant in it and when it is big enough to withstand browse pressure, move the fence down and do it again. Fencing is the only thing that works. My video from today shows a clearcut area that had nothing but fern and striped maple - we sprayed and fenced it with Govt grants and got great results
Thanks. I will take a look. I have so many projects here that anything that requires fencing is going to be a low priority. I think letting nature do the hard work is ideal so I will focus on TSI and burning for a while with some plantings each spring and then after about three more years of this, I will reassess my weaknesses and address those smaller areas. I pretty much know what they will be already. A big factor here is going to be keeping the deer density from growing so that when the time comes to shift to planting more dedicated browse areas the deer will not be a huge problem.
Dream Big brother 🙏
Thanks Edward. You too.
Bill, can you please do an episode on invasive plants? I know it may pertain mostly to our upper midwest but I think it would be very interesting and the comments section people can add their thoughts on their respective region.
You mentioned in the beginning of this farm you had invasives in mind when looking to buy a new farm. What are the species you were most concerned about? What species we less of a concern? What about the differences of hard stem/wood plants vs broadleaf invasives?
Are there any plants we think of as weeds that are actually native and beneficial?
Additionally, you have been in the upper Midwest for your whole life, what is new, what is old? What is your opinion on how they got here (transcontinental trade or even supported by the DNR like multiflora rose or highbush cranberry?
I wish I had the ability to sit down and juts pick your mind and learn from your wisdom. Thank you for what you do.
Austin, those are all good questions. I will try to cover something like that in the future. I fought bush honeysuckle on my southern Iowa farm and that was the one that I really watched out for when looking for land in the area where I bought. There were some farms I looked at that were over-run with it. It is very hard to do any kind of useful habitat work as long as there is a lot of honeysuckle. I am sure autumn olive has the same effect as does some of the creeping/vining species that I have run into in southern Illinois. Anything you can control with fire is OK (not good, but at least manageable). Anything you have to control manually by cut and spray is a really bad deal. You will never stop fighting them. I know that some guys (and state agencies) are effectively spraying honeysuckle in mid-fall after everything else goes dormant. That is heavy handed but in wartime anything is acceptable! A drone sprayer would work really well for that as you could control application to those parts of the timber that are infested. I have a lot of Japanese Barberry on the farm. Fortunately, fire zaps it pretty well. The DNR biologist who comes around here often thinks it got started as an ornamental planted at a nearby farmyard a few decades back.
I have a lot of Red Osier on my property and it gets browsed hard especially the young natural regeneration. It usually takes two years of growth to outrace browse but once there is enough of it, it is a great to have. Maybe try planting a higher volume? Another year might make a big difference even with the browse pressure.
That sounds like the majority of the comments here agree with you. I just need to keep planting it for awhile and eventually transplant cuttings to further increase the amount. Thanks for the comment.
I planted ROD for the first time this spring, now I caged them because I had none prior and I know the deer would hammer it. So I’ll see how it goes, going to leave caged for a few years let it get established before releasing to test browse pressure
My thoughts was to let it get established and then open it up. I’m hoping with that it handles the browse pressure.
I think that is the most common solution that I am getting in the comments to this video. It can be done, but not without protection - at least at first. Good luck.
Would like to add a different perspective. Planting trees versus shrubs. I have planted both and have some different thoughts on the topic. First is related to time frame. Shrubs produced essential browse for your deer immediately which most likely improved your winter survival rate this past winter. If you planted trees, they would not help for 6 to 10 years. I planted around 500 trees over the past 5 years and I only have about 20 left to show for my work and only a few small pears so far that did not even fall off the tree last fall. The only ones that survived were the ones I took the time to protect. Of the 20, 5 are chestnut trees that have attracted other animals that broke a number of the trees branches.
I planted red osiers shrubs 20 months ago and protected them and they are thriving and producing feed now. Each year I plan to cut stems off and transplant to expand the area of shrubs.
So I look at shrubs versus trees as more of a now versus later which is why I planted the trees first and then the shrubs knowing the deer will destroy much of my plantings, both the trees and the shrubs equally.
That is a good point Brian. My hope is that I can provide other shrubs that maybe the deer don't eat as quickly. We planted 550 hazelnut and 550 ninebark this past spring (along with another 100 red osier) and 1,000 plum trees. I am hoping that a few more years of this will have enough browse on the farm that the deer will not focus on the newest stuff and wipe it out, but rather spread the pressure and everything will thrive. That is goal. Time will tell. I do think that your idea of "now versus later" is a good one. We need both the shrubs and the trees.
I have a large stand of mature red osier dogwood on my property in a forested area along an east-facing hillside. The deer have actually made tunnels through it. The stand of dogwood holds a lot of bedding deer and has no other ground competition. It is about 20 yards wide, about 75 yards long and the plants are about 10 feet tall. They are naturally there and maintenance-free. Because it is so plentiful, the plants don't seem affected by the deer and they are thriving.
At that height it’s likely only good for bedding but not able to be browsed well.
That is pretty cool Paul. It is what I was hoping to create here. To get far enough ahead of the deer that the red osier would thrive despite the deer, but I am a long ways from that! Thanks for the comment.
@@marclakatos1274 tons of bedding in that location
I have it growing naturally on my ditch banks. I do hundreds of cutting each year. Easy, cheap and quick. I cage a few then rotate the cages. They are finally taking off after a couple of years and the deer can’t keep up anymore!
That is perfect Todd. If I can get a spot established, I will go to the cuttings too. That sounds like the best way to keep them moving and thriving. Have a great day.
Does autum olive any good in ure area, tbey love it here in Ohio
Man, they don't eat it and it is considered an invasive. If I could eliminate it all (I don't have much) I sure would. I guess deer get used to different foods in different areas. Thanks for the comment.
I wouldn't write off red osier too quickly, they can handle pretty significant browsing and still flourish. A farm I hunt has red osier creeping up in places all over with every single plant, even the youngest, all clearly having been snipped off by deer, but they're still thriving and spreading. We don't have the density you do, but one of those young patches is right on a main travel corridor. Year after year I see them growing despite the heavy browse. I have yet to see how my own attempt at transplanting has gone, but I only popped 20 cuttings into the ground. Anyway, have some patience- if the plants made it a year, I think they're good to go and should propagate before long.
Keith, I will definitely keep an eye on them. I was discouraged that some were only stems, but part of that could have been related to location and competition from other plants too, not just deer. I will keep an eye on them and see if they spring back. If they do, I will definitely plant more. I have planted, I think 300 of them on the farm over the past two springs so I have a growing sample size for this experiment.
I would plant groves of persimmon trees , here in Mo. the deer hammer them after the first hard frost, the fruit falls to the ground ........
Yes, once the main areas of open ground are all planted to acorns (oaks) will then see which spots didn't produce many trees and in those spots I will then plant chestnut and other species. I think persimmons would be really cool as I have a lot of apple trees on other parts of the farm. Thanks for the comment.
Well we made our way to Iowa and I'm alittle puzzled Bill, the area we seen didn't look a hole lot different than here in southern Indiana. I'm sure dirt is better but does Iowa regulations make that big a difference in age and size of bucks compared to other states?
Chris, it is all about age structure. If your southern Indiana bucks reach age 4 or 5 they will be just as big as the Iowa deer. The ag practices and soil quality in southern IN is not much different from southern Iowa and that area grows monsters every year. In most parts of the Midwest, it is all about age. Good luck.
Seems like about 2010 things have went down hill. Thanks for taking the time to respond love watching your videos
@@chrisstroud3094 In some areas. There was a really bad hit of EHD throughout much of southern Iowa in 2012 that really took a bite out of the buck population. Most areas have recovered, but EHD is definitely a problem.
Ever try growing ROD from seed like you did the acorns ? Might be easier to overwhelm the deer that way...
I have not tried that nor did I even think of it. If I can find a source, I definitely will. I love planting stuff from seed for that very reason - lots of plants to overwhelm the deer and let nature do the work instead of me. Let me know if you find a source for the seed. Have a great day.
Have you considered modifying your land to adopt the Tony LaPratt method - basically setting up multiple apartments for deer to live, screening to limit visual of other deer, forcing bucks to check every spot, etc.? Seems like you're putting in quite a bit of effort somewhat strategically but with your acreage and location, I'd assume you could do something similar, unless ag harvesting takes priority. Was LaPratt method ever considered at your Dream Farm or perhaps previous parcels?
None of that actually makes any sense to me. Maybe I am not smart enough.
Hey Bill, how are the ticks in your area this year?
They were really bad early (that early warm up), but I don't seem to be getting them on me much now. I am not pulling them off the dog, but I have the Seresto collar on him and the vet up there says that is the best protection.
Comparatively speaking how are your hazelnut bushes doing? We have naturally occurring hazelnut to the point that it's almost a nuisance in many areas. I've never seen much impact from deer browse on them. Red maple Red oak and white pine all get browsed, severely. Particularly in extreme conditions like the Winter of 22-23
The hazelnut is not being browsed yet, but some experts say the deer love it. I also planted a lot of ninebark this spring and that also is ignored, at least for now. I used to plant maple on the farm in southern Iowa and the deer at it to the ground. I know they see white pine as candy. Good luck.
Deer also do not eat my hazelnut shrubs. They love the nuts but do not browse on it.
@@jasonkelly5760 That is not what I am seeing here. They definitely browse on the hazelnut bush itself. I was just in a spot where I found a wild one and the branches were all browsed back.
You may be surprised at the resiliency of red osier. It is browse tolerant and will bounce back strongly. Give it a couple more years before the final conclusion. Time will tell.
Thanks. I am looking forward to seeing what this looks like in another year. I will keep everyone posted.
i agree in not caging. but i think your red osier dog wood is
1- to condensed to each area. once the deer find it, they don’t have to travel far at all to find next plant. more spread out/ multiple smaller sections and fence line type planting.
2-your deer density is dictating that they love it and you haven’t planted enough of it.
i am in favor of hazelnuts and apple/plums
Yes. There is definitely something to that. I planted 550 uncaged hazelnuts and 1,000 uncaged plums. So far so good on those.
the plums and hazelnuts are a 5ish year wait for mass production which is the bummer where the red osier is an almost instant food source. maybe that’s part of it that the deer won’t hit the red osier as bad once they have the plum and hazelnut sources too
65 deer per mile and you don't consider that high? I would love that here in north central Pa . The game commission here issues too many doe tags, the public land gets hammered.
Jeff, most of southern Iowa and many parts of northern Iowa (where there is a lot of cover) have densities well above that. Also, many areas in MO, KS and IL also have higher densities (in some cases much higher). Also, my deer are pretty spread out because most of this farm is timber. In an area with less timber 65 deer per square mile would seem like a lot more.
@@bill-winke Hi Bill Esty sells the red osier seeds. 100 seeds are 10.84. they have the number of seeds and the cost. Doesnt sound hard to do. maybe by sowing a lot of seeds would have better luck getting the plants to get mature. Good luck.
@@jeffmitchell-qh4jp That is an excellent idea. Thanks Jeff. I have also thought about planting wild grape along my fence lines to see if they will take off naturally. That would be pretty cool. I see Etsy has grape seeds for planting too.
@@bill-winke That would be pretty cool. The deer here in Pa love honeysuckle vines , could be another option for your fence lines. Look forward to seeing how it works for you. Good luck.
I used small tree tube, 2ft tall, 2.5ft of half inch pvc pipe for a stake. Lets the roots get established, then its good to go. If the species couldn't handle being browsed, deer would've eaten it to extinction thousands of years ago.
Do you have any concern on that deer density based on it was taken out of season?
Not sure. My guess, if anything I might have picked up a few deer during the early winter as I have more food than anywhere around. It is possible that my year around density is lower than what Jack found in early March (I think that is when he flew it). Thanks for the comment.
65 deer per square mile is quite a few deer! Only agriculture land will support this many deer when there is good available.
The dogwoods needed a cage to get established. They also provide cover for deer. The damage on the dogwoods tells a lot about deer browse pressure and agriculture food availability. You need more and other browse species for the deer. Deer seek out woody browse to eat.
Daniel, 65 deer per square mile is a low density in many parts of the Midwest and especially in parts of Iowa that I have hunted in the past. The density for at least a 15 to 20 square mile area where I owned in southern Iowa was well over 100 per square mile (we fought non-stop to keep it from growing beyond that) and in some the of the most populous areas it was 150+ per square mile. Jack Huston, who did my aerial survey, said he flew a few places in northern MO where the density was over 300 deer per square mile! Of course, the amount of cover in those areas makes a difference too, but even when the cover is relatively high for the Midwest (60% or more) 150 deer per square mile is too many for farming. They literally eat everything. Good luck.
@@bill-winke glad to hear your response. Lesson most people miss: deer management is DOE MANAGEMENT!! Good luck to you!
Thanks for your response!
Bill - Any thoughts on the proposed/alleged cell camera ban in Iowa? I've seen several folks chatting about it on TH-cam, but nothing from the DNR, so it may an inaccurate report. Have a great day.
I texted my game warden but have not heard back. My guess is that it is over stated. I don't know it for sure but I bet cell cams aren't outlawed for private land. But eventually we will get some clarity from the DNR on this.
I planted red osier and have the same problem. The deer love them. I don’t care if they keep pruning them. I planted other shrubs that the deer like too.
As long as they don't actually browse them to death that is an OK plan. My worry is that they will kill these or at least keep them from spreading and I really want the browse to grow and flourish too - maybe that is not impossible without fencing. Time will tell.
@@bill-winke I planted other browse shrubs with my red osier, mainly American plum, ninebark and others. I look at it as a shrub food plot/ hopefully a bedding area someday. I’m converting old pasture.
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Thanks for the support.
I had to cage mine. The plants that are not caged were eaten
Agree, but at what point is it working against you to have deer food that the deer can't get to? When do you remove the cage or do you just let the deer what grows through or over the cage? Good input.
I planted 60 plants in a fenced area allowed them to grow and then cut twigs and planted them everywhere, they have eaten some to the dirt but a lot r doing well ,I think if you overwhelm them with a lot of them they will last. But I'm keeping the plants in the fence area from them and I never run out of cutting
@@steveposton245 Overwhelming them seems to be the key. Thanks for the input.
Did I hear you correctly when you said 65 deer per square mile??? That is like 40 too many deer for that area or the formula to calculate that # is WAY off. I also remember you mentioning quite a few apple trees in your woods and had one throwing a ton of apples on the edge of one of your plots. Didn't seem like you were using that resource to hunt by and don't know why you would plant more apple trees if you aren't using them in your hunt strategy. Spot #1 looks like you have a natural spring as a water source. Why aren't you digging that out more or berming one side to collect more water and create another great hunting locations?
Tony, that is not a high density for the Midwest. Where I owned in southern Iowa the density for that who area (at least 15 square miles) was about 140 deer per square mile. We have tons of ponds on the farm. 14 I think. I don't really need more ponds. The apple trees are confined to about 1/8 of the total property. They are thick there but not many on the rest of the place.
I like fruit trees myself.
I like them too. Once established, at least the disease resistant ones, you can kind of just let them go. We have hundreds of wild apple trees here producing apples on one part of the farm and they are zero maintenance. Have a great day.
They will be fine they'll send out sucker roots and start spreading.
I hope that happens here. Maybe I just need to be more patient on these.
I established my small orchard years ago and only feed deer during the apple or pear drop which I think is a small window. I have switched to dogwoods, lately mostly ROD which feed deer year round. I found less is more on my farm. I do cage the few that I plant and once they are taller than deer, I remove the cage. I have even topped the ROD and end result are mineral sprouts which deer hammer and end result are more sprouts. I have one ROD planted by one cutting that enlarged by stolons to a 10 by 10 thicket great for birds as well. I think your results are fantastic. I agree with a lot of the comments to use free cuttings vs buying bare root ROD.
I will keep trying to grow them, but this farm has so much open area (former cattle pasture) that is too steep to machine plant for crops or trees so I will need to plant stuff I can put into the ground in volume and not have to cage. Thanks for the comment and the input. Very good information.
Plant them chestnut trees bill
You are right Ben. I definitely need about 200 of them here! I will get busy and get some in the ground - maybe not that many, but at least get a start.
I have hedge rows filled with that stuff. The deer barely hit it. Then again I don't have very many deer as all my neighbors are Amish . They are terrible for the wildlife environment... They kill any and anything brown.
Sandy, it is interesting how the Amish are different depending on where they live. In southern MN they seem to be very consumer related while the ones I run into in Iowa are much more management oriented. When I used to do seminars at the Iowa Deer Classic, about 20% of the audience would be Amish and they asked the best questions. So it is not all the Amish who shoot the resource hard. Have a great day.
In my opinion U need to get some grass control ! burn down that grass first and use some Princip 4L 2 lb pea acre !
Donald, I was trying to use the grass to hide the red osier from the deer for a couple of years. It is a tradeoff between competition from the grass and the deer eating everything. At this point in the life cycle of the shrubs I am going to focus on protecting them from the deer.
Don't you cage your fruit trees? Grass competition looks bad too.
I don't cage the apple trees. They are growing wild and there are so many the deer can't keep up. I feel that the grass competition is part of the reason I have any of the red osier at all since it kind of hides them from the deer. If they ever get really established, I will spray clethodim around them to remove the grass competition. But on this farm, removing the grass just opens those areas up for thistles. There is always something looking for those created openings if the intended plant doesn't fill them fast enough.
@@bill-winke Sounds good. I actually thought you Red Osier Dogwood looked pretty good all things considered. They will keep popping up chutes if the deer take the tops off. Good luck.
@@kurtcaramanidis5705 Thanks Kurt. I am pretty sure the deer will keep taking the tops off. If they don't, I will go around and do it. Have a great day.
65 deer per square mile is insanely high. You have to cage anything you want to last. They have to get there roots nice and deep and big enough to stand some browse pressure. You could go cage some tomorrow and they would recover. They got hit that hard. You set yourself up for failure. You spend on this time and energy on all kinds of things but you didnt even do this half right for the density and are disappointed in the results.
It is interesting how many people think this is a high density. It would be different if it was half open ground but it is almost all timber and rugged which means a square mile here is like about 1.6 square miles if you pounded it flat. It is the lowest density I herd I have hunted in the last 30 years in the Midwest and I have hunted all over the place. I am not going to cage. That was my whole point. If I have to cage it I am not going to plant it. There are other options.
Doesnt take much of a google to see thats double the average deer density of the midwest. So unless the information is wrong somewhere
ROD is so overrated, It’s a copy cat world. Someone show success and everyone has a video how to plant them. On a small or wet area, they have their place. Big open farm, multiple diff tree and clover. & corn no comparison.
Tree done right can’t beat em, still acorns on the ground from last year in good shape! Crazy
65 per mile is BIG, NYS best county is 10 -12 deer per mile, Long Island public land 2 -3 per mile smh.
“TREES” some will be producing in fifty or even 100 years (or their seedlings will be)
long after our time lol
Robert, how do you know I won't live to be 120 years old! Our daughter says she looks forward to someday building a swing for her child or grandchild in a tree she helped plant from and acorn. That is motivation for me to work hard because the stewardship we show now affects the resource for generations! On the other point, I like for nature to do the hard work and not me. In other words, I need to focus on doing a good job of TSI and burning and let nature produce the browse rather than me trying to plant tons of it - too much work on a large scale (as you state). Have a great day.
@@bill-winke You’re funny, I plan to live to a healthy 100yo. Not to far out these days. I’ll pray you outlive me and healthy too.
I’ll be 63 this August. And been setting up easier spots for when I get old.
I admire you and your hunting, but I see a good father, husband and man with integrity.
God bless you and your family
@@robertfmccarthy2360 Thanks Robert. God bless you too.
Where to buy these in bulk?
Iowa DNR Nursery. Affordable too.
Hi Bill - quick question here. What is your over all assessment of the HuntStand app? Having trouble finding one that is accurate with property lines line - appreciate it!
The property lines seem accurate to me, at least the ones I have compared to the tax database. But I do believe HuntStand gets its property line data from the tax database so that makes sense.
@@bill-winke Okay, appreciate the input.
In my opinion, I didn't see any areas you showed in this video, that I'd have planted red osier dogwood in. My battle right now is trying to get Norway Spruce to survive. They were doing pretty well until a crop duster flew over a couple weeks ago. So if the deer don't get your plantings, maybe the crop duster will!!
I sure hope not. I just planted them in wet/moist areas without much concern for other factors.