as yeoman's teacher mr Kernberg put it: people with BPD and NPD..have suboptimal parents, parents who are not empathetic, who are abusive in some way, don't see the child as a person in its own right so don't encourage the emergence of the true self...etc. That's all very traumatic for a child. That's why it is developmental trauma
You have just described my childhood. Thank God people can understand now how frightening it is as a child. More like terrifying. My mother was a narcissist. Would love to know more about all this.
Dr. Daniel Siegel also talks about parental attunement. Some parents can’t read or since their children’s responses and needs. They’re mentally or emotionally checked out or may have addictions, developmental or mental health issues or trauma of their own.
I see it as a chain of damage, investigating the history of your ancestors can be very insightful and healing. Of course, sometimes people are just s**tty, but in my experience, it's people passing on trauma as they don't have the strength to go inward and process it. I also think that bodywork has a lot to offer for these conditions.
@@PurplePassionPaper I wrote this to another post. but maybe helps to understand how developmental trauma happens: transference is the feelings the client 'transfers' onto the therapist (it is a kind of displacement: the feelings you have towards your mother/father/siblings are being transferred onto the therapist so you see them as if they were your mother or sister...etc..the 'as if' is important. if the client thinks that the therapist is actually her mother/sister/father...etc...then she is psychotic. countertransference is the feelings that are aroused in the therapist by the client. there are two types of countertransference: 1, objective: the feelings aroused by the client through projective identification, 2, subjective countertransference: the therapist own feelings towards the client. It is really important that the therapist can differentiate between the two, so she won't confuse her own feelings with what the client projects into her. projective identification: it is part of the countertransference. as is mentioned above, it is through the mechanism of projective identification the client dumps her unbearable feelings into the therapist. it is beyond projection. when the client projects feelings onto the therapist, she attributes her own feelings to the therapist, but she is not actively eliciting those feelings in the therapist. through projective identification, however, the client induces feelings in the therapist. She pressures the therapist through verbal and non-verbal communicatoin to feel those feelings she cannot bear. That's what borderlines do all the time. Evacuating their unbearable feelings into others through projective identification. That's one of the main reasons why it is so hard to be around them. (e.g. there's a girlfriend and a boyfriend with at a party with a group of friends. girfriend is flirting heavily with another man from the group while boyfriend is watching. boyfriend feels really humiliated, but doesn't want to make a scene, so he leaves the party and goes back home on his own. after the party is over and the grilfriend gets home, the boyfriend tells her that her flirting with another man in his face made him feel sad and humiliated. Borderline/narcissitic girfriend feels of course starts to feel bad about herself because she feels guilty and ashamed, but she cannot bear it. So she evacuates these feelings into the boyfriend: she raises her voice and accuses the boyfriend of being antisocial because he left her and the group of friends without saying goodbye. When there's projective identificatoin, there's always a 'hook' in the receiver: the boyfriend is actually quite an introvert and at other occasions he didn't really want to go out with her friends. So the boyfriend starts feeling guilty and ashamed, he feels that he is the bad one, because yes, he did leave the party without saying goodbye to the friends. So although he was the one humiliated and hurt, borderline/narcissitic girfriend successfully induced the feelings of guilt and shame in him through projective identification, so she doesn't need ot feel bad. But projective identification is not always bad. It is the basis of empathy. When a friends tells you about the unfortunate things that happened to them and you start feeling sad, it is because your friend induced those feelings in you. and that's OK. we need to feel empathy towards each other. Also, the non-verbal baby communicates wth the mother through projective identification. When the baby feels hungry/in pain/uncomfortable, for the baby that's life threatening and persecuting. The baby needs to project these unbearable feelings into the mother. if the mother is responsive and can function as a container (the concept of container-contained comes from psychoanalysis, from Wilfrid Bion, and all other therapeutic modalities have co-opted it. If a therapist cannot contain the client, then she is not a good enough therapist), so if the mother can cootain the baby's unbearable feelings and think about it, feel it, do this for a suffcient amount of time and thus 'detoxify' them, process them for the baby and then project it back in a detoxified, bearable form, then the baby is contained. If the mother is a 'leaky container', and cannot detoxify the baby's projections, then what the baby will intorject is the 'nameless dread'. The concept of containing the feelings of the infant is quite similar to mentalisation. Children learn to mentalise - be aware of their own and other's internal states - because they are being accurately mentalised by adults: these adult can contain their negative feelings and can accurately mirror back the positive ones. Children develop personality disorders - I would rather say narcissistic/borderline/schizoid adaptations - because they have to adapt to inadequate caregivers who cannot provide the containing function becaus they are unresponsive/neglectful/abusive. What borderline clients need most is containment. Because they have never been contained by their caregivers. That's why they cannot regulate their emotions. Children learn to regulate their emotions and mentalise through a secure attachment with a responsive primary caregiver. Secure attachement is interactive co-regulation between mother and infant. People with narcissistic/borderline/schizoid/avoidant adaptations have never had caregivers who were securely attached and could contain their unbearable feelings. That's what is called developmental trauma. Alan N Shore is a neuro-psychoanalyst who is worth reading and a book called: 'Borderline, Narcissitic and Schizoid Adaptations - The Pursuit of Love, Admiratoin and Safety' by Elinor Greenberg. Hope this helps
People seem to only focus on the big T traumas but little T traumas can be and often are significantly impactful. The majority of my clients with BPD have C-PTSD consisting of the little T traumas. I have always approached BPD treatment from a trauma approach. I combine trauma-inform, attachment, and DBT. But I tend to work with “high functioning BPD” women.
Would you agree your high functioning patients have emotional empathy that have BPD (which you approach with trauma treatment) is very similar to C-PTSD? There's a theory that pwBPD that succeed in therapy have emotional empathy and are suffering from PTSD while failing patients don't have emotional empathy and are actually narcissists. Essentially meaning BPD doesn't exist as suggested, what do you think?
@@susanramen1615 From my perspective, as an ex client who is (very recently) hopeful to again be a client soon - after promising myself I would never trust taking talk therapy again - it’s NOT just the trauma.... It is negative non trauma or micro aggression or micro trauma events prior to and especially AFTER a major trauma that can make one BPD. Maybe one or two BIG traumas sandwiched between lots of micro stuff. I was always bragging to myself in my 20's/30's that I was AOK about losing a parent to suicide, and that I came out OK from it - I was ignoring how it was the LITTLE stuff combined with that one big thing that was ruining my life - that combined with all my baggage some from childhood and mostly from adulthood - plus what I saw as a very unethical situation with two social workers which certainly did not help matters - but thats another subject. JMHO.
Thank you so much. Sufferers of all these little t's have been ignored, forgotten and gaslight by the medical community. My life has changed so much because a provider like you recognized and acknowledged my trauma. Thank you.
I honestly suspect its developmental or attachment trauma which almost no one will remember as a "capital T Trauma" but in essence it works the same way ...again a hypothesis lol. But I have a decently strong feeling about this. I'm honestly surprised it's not treated with the same level of credibility as "capital T trauma" because to me it probably is that but due to no memory (nor can you ask a baby how it's feeling due to being traumatized) it becomes something that is a part of your personality and settles into you on a hard-wired and unconscious level. But that it is just as traumatic as Trauma.
I agree with you that there's an attachment component to BPD. I know someone diagnosed with BPD who, as a baby, was laid down with their bottle propped up on a pillow facing a blank wall through the bars of the cot. That person's brain would not have been developing the way it's supposed to being held and looking into their mother's eyes while feeding.
My diagnosis, severe depression, depression with anxiety,b.p.d., bipolar disorder anxiety disorder only,you name it! Don't want a label anymore,and need therapy. We need to get off this thought that we need a label to help us 😢!!!!
I agree, labels can be helpful to some extent but can be very dehumanising if someone feels that that is their lot in life (it's not!). Find yourself a good relational therapist who will allow you to feel fully heard. Look into IFS (internal family systems) therapy too. Above all be compassionate to yourself, and I wish you good luck on your journey - you can do it! Speaking as someone who has done a lot of work on myself in therapy, I would say, do not lose heart, you can feel better if you are prepared to do the work with a good therapist, with whom you have a good rapport. Good luck 🙏
I also met diagnostic criteria for BPD for the better part of my life, with no history of "capital T trauma." Someone, maybe it was Yeomans, talked about the idea that BPD is developmental in the sense that primary caregivers can't meet the needs of the child or help them work through their problems. Not because of a noticeable deficiency in the parent, but because those needs are very hard to meet because the child is somewhere extreme on the social-sensorial spectrum. I believe this explains why BPD looks so much like trauma. But I think he's absolutely right about the fact that, as opposed to PDSD or even CPDSD, it's pervasive in every aspect of a person's life, cognition and emotion. I really believe that in the future, if we can say "this child has an emotional disturbance that predicts adult BPD" then we can teach parents to parent a little bit differently to offset that. I think it is true that the normal cultural things we say to children to instill resilience aren't heard correctly by children with this kind of emotional disturbance, including, "you can do this" (as someone else on the channel pointed out) or even, as I was told constantly at one point, "it's ok to cry." I would have benefitted from being given ways out of intolerable situations and also distractions. It took me about thirty five years to start learning to distract myself in a way that is similar to what most eight year olds seem to have learned. And I had to teach myself.
I deeply appreciate this comment. I believe there is a strong link between trauma and BPD, as well as an overlap of BPD symptoms with "autism + developmental trauma."
Hi, severe neglect. Put into foster care. Sexually abused, suicide feelings as a child rose up to be a happy business person but I could not sustain it.
You'll get it together, it's tough and not your fault. Not everything goes right all the time, but your luck can change if you realize everything has ups and downs.
I grew up in 7 homes . Borderline monther, schizophrenic dad . I have some bpd traites , but suffer more from anxiety and panic attacks . I have stable friendships and have worked most my life . feel disconnected from all my feelings at times. i had a very narcissistic foster mom . was very hard not being allowed to feel all my feelings
It continues to sadden me how people suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) are led to believe that BPD just happens. The fact is, it is very clearly a strategy to cope with severe narcissistic abuse in childhood. It's how a child must adapt mentally, emotionally and psychologically to the perverse and often abusive nature of those who gave birth to them, but can never be real parents to them. I truly understand how difficult it is for someone with BPD to see this. However, reading David P. Celani's book "Leaving Home" makes it all so clear. Unfortunately, the mental health field often hurts many people when it ignores the unbelievable terror, shame, and harm created when a parent looks normal but lives from an ego structure that cannot tolerate needs and wants, boundaries, criticism, responsibility and has no access to love and respect from its infantile place of extreme selfish and self-centered existence. Of course, the narcissist was horribly traumatized in childhood. But to allow anyone with BPD to believe that it's genetic or some disordered maladaptive aversion to emotions is hurtful. The narcissist could not tolerate anything other than complete adoration from their child, so the same child will have a terrified relationship to rage, which is something they likely felt most of the time in regards to the perversion of roles forced on them while simultaneously never getting their developmental needs met.
Well said. In my study and experience, this is true. I cannot say that BPD doesn't have a genetic factor but everything I have learned suggests that no GF is necessary at least. The studies I read about that suggest a GF must exist find their evidence in studies of parents who supposedly raised their children well. I don't trust those parents to understand what they never learned. If one is unaware of healthy interaction for mental and emotional development, you will believe you did well in what you did do.
I am 40 and late diagnosed ADHD. I firmly believe that my constant emotional invalidation, and abuse just because i was seen as a problem child, and other traumatic things along the way, got me my BPD diagnosis. To this day I firmly believe it is incorrect, and it is instead CPTSD.
There's also behavioral overlap between women originally misdiagnosed with BPD, and then later diagnosed with high masking-related trauma from ASD+ADHD. Bearing in mind their parents are also likely undiagnosed masking-related trauma ASD+ADHD
I wonder if maybe both can be true. That some people get BPD from trauma. But there could be others that don’t. Ex: Smoking causes lung cancer, and many people who have lung cancer were smokers or exposed to industrial smoke etc. But some people just get lung cancer even though they never smoked or was around smoke. Both are true
The thing that distinguishes me (PTSD) from every person with BPD that I have ever known is that I do not fear abandonment, and hence I do not possess a paranoid, jealous streak.
I have ASD and experienced trauma and complex trauma growing up. Undiagnosed until my mid 50s, I must say that when looking at the criteria for BPD, I can check most every box. I'm not saying I have BPD but I recognize the traits. A lifetime of inability to initiate or maintain relationships, splitting, paranoia, psychotic episodes and suicidal thoughts are all a part of my experience. Is it possible that in some cases, ASD + PTSD results in BPD? ASD typically has genetic underpinnings not unlike BPD which results in, among other things, confusion in understanding the motivations of others. There are those that suggest the ASD experience is traumatic on a good day and is typically internalized out of shame. ASD plus abuse, invalidation, neglect, violence or other forms of trauma in childhood has a profound effect on an individual's sense of self identity. Is it a coincidence that females are underreported with ASD because of their innate ability to conceal their traits while many diagnosed later in life with BPD are in fact female? Not suggesting that ASD + PTSD = BPD in all cases, but when so many with ASD conceal traits even from themselves, trauma, even quiet trauma over time may lend itself to personality disorders. Just some thoughts.
I think the criteria for BPD can be looked at as symptoms. Many people experience those symptoms in their life, arguably everyone. When combing through my own journey, I can see that there have been times (especially at the beginning of my hours when things were the least treated and understood) more of those symptoms were present. I think BPD is a spectrum, but I also believe in order and I truly have BPD perhaps other conditions like trauma and ADH/ASD need to be managed. If after management someone still meets the criteria for a personality disorder then you could say they truly have it or they're severe or perhaps if they don't you could determine l, like I said, more of the "symptoms" from the other conditions. Also, as a spectrum, a lot of people will identify with the symptoms/traits at some point, but are they constant everyday? How many of them are happening everyday for the last 6-12 months or how many are occurring every week. The other point id like to make is depression. A lot of people confuse the emptiness of long term depression with BPD emptiness and I think therapists latch on to comments around empty or hollow and alarm bells go off for BPD, but along my journey and moving out of my 20s and getting to a place of stability, I can see clearly that I've always had a sense of self even if I didn't know it at times.
@@SamanthaParker-ir2gq Thank you for your comments. These are complex questions and honestly I don't believe psychologists and clinicians can fully provide us with answers, only paths for pursuit. For myself, neurodivergence appears to be the ground floor condition that other challenges quickly piled up on. Trauma for an infant that is wired neurodivergent may not be so readily recognized; a significant portion of that may fall silently into the realm of insecure attachment. An early relationship with the mother (not necessarily by any particular fault of the mother) that results in disorganized attachment, the sense of one's self worthiness and the trustworthiness of others becomes becomes distorted. Neurodivergence is a recipe for difficulty in relations and communications in general throughout life. As a child grows up, relationship traumas are bound to pile up. Virtually all of my lifelong difficulties are around relations, communications and the inability to form secure attachments on any level. Add trauma and stress and the internal experience seeps into the outer realm, sometimes awkwardly, sometimes explosively. Internally, I have intense feelings of needing to connect but I know I'll be betrayed once the person finds out who I am. The emotional disregulation becomes impossible to mask. Then comes the splitting, the rage, the distorted thinking, the paranoia, the dissociation and all the other wonderful traits associated with BPD. As you were saying, there is so much overlap in symptoms and traits that what it's called matters less. Whether it's symptoms associated with trauma, CPTSD, ADHD/ASD or BPD or whether it's a full blown personality disorder, the distinction starts to lose importance. What is important is that the symptoms have to be treated or managed in some way. I am better able to manage all of this through careful isolation where I can control my environment, monitor my internal state, avoid stress and focus on interests that do have positive results. In this way I'm better able to find and maintain an internal state of balance. Still, I can feel when the episodes are coming on. Sometimes it's a minor event that sets me into a rage. Other times it's an inconsolable ache that grows steadily inside. It can last for days or weeks or longer and all the traits can resume. I can feel it coming on in my brain, in my body and my heartrate, though I'm better now at not feeding it. There can be periods where the traits fully subside and I'm feeling good. Those times are such a blessing. At my age I'm settling in with the reality that I will never experience the attachment I've sought throughout my life. It's not possible for me and there's a peace in resigning to that. I have some years left and there is meaningfulness to be had. Creating with my hands has always been a good channel for intense feelings. Diet and exercise plays a very important role in my sense of wellbeing. I can take life or leave it and there's a peace in that as well. Blessings on your journey, Samantha and thank you again for sharing your thoughts.
For something is diagnosed as a disorder you have to present symptoms for a minimum of 2 years. So,for BPD, you have presnt with at least 7 of the 9 traits for BPD for 2 years.
@@samanthaginnifer7374 Personally, I've experienced BPD symptoms since fairly early childhood and I can tick every box in terms of traits. Not all at once. The traits are not always full blown, it's a spectrum and sometimes there's remission. I learned to mask symptoms and keep it "quiet". I've managed in most areas well enough to conceal the inner distress, except for when it comes to relationships. The intense need to attach, the agony and the rage when it fails cannot be concealed. It's gotten me into trouble and it's just better to accept relationships are not in the cards for me. I treasure my isolation and I guard it jealously. I come out for brief interaction when I'm ready. There are areas in which I enjoy success and immense satisfaction. Human relations is not one of them.
My guess would be general happiness/ stable mood, balanced perspective, constructive habits, good character & and good/ balanced socialization. These traits seem to be adversely affected most by trauma. Reverse those, and I'm guessing that's what a person without trauma (or at least healed from trauma) looks like. 🤷♀️
@ajhproductions2347 remember the superstars in High School, the successful ones who were popular and are now VERY well off… yea THOSE are the ones that didn’t have trauma. Their parents worshipped them and that’s why they were successful.
Everyone has trauma. It's part of being alive and able to feel safe or not. No one goes through life without losing a loved one or having an accident or health scare or getting lost etc. Some people just go into denial better than others or their coping mechanism/s are still working for them. How a person looks on the outside is no reflection of what's going on for them on the inside. Success in some area does not mean that a person was loved or taken proper care of. It can mean the opposite and they've compensated. Anyone who says that they haven't experienced trauma lacks awareness. This woman clarified by saying big T trauma. As trauma is how a person reacts to an event, not the event itself, she can't know how big that trauma is because it can lay quite for years.
I've always thought BPD was the result of neglect or abuse in the early years - How many people don't reallize they experienced some form of neglect in early life such as emotional neglect? It's not severe enough to be realized by the child, but it still effects their mental development negatively.
@@BrooklynBaby100That seems like a somewhat simplified generalization to me. I agree that trauma and mental illness are probably less common in the more socioeconomically successful parts of the population. Tbh, there's probably lots of traumatized "high school superstars" who have simply adopted coping mechanisms that are more adaptive in our society (NPD comes to mind).
I have parts of my past I can’t remember. I ran away from home at 12 and again at 15 I have bpd and my teenage years looked more like antisocial personality disorder to a degree. I have cptsd. It bothers me that I can not remember parts of my life. I tested with an iq of 145 however did not even finish highschool and have a hard time with basic writing skills at times. So weird.
IFS has a lovelier and better explanation of BPD trauma. Exiled parts of us respond to the trauma by protecting differently, based on which protective behaviour works best in the situation we are in. BPD parts usually consist of a recruiter (always in search of an unconditionally loving parent) and a highly suspicious part (both polarised), and parts that are extremely self destructive as well. Understanding the trauma of these exiled parts free the protectors from their roles and rigid behaviours. Depathologising the borderline client by Dr Richard Schwartz was really enlightening.
Don't use ISF for c-ptsd! I was sa as a child and that approach wrecked me. And I mean wrecked me. I ended up in constant dissociation ( freeze ), depersonalisation and derealisation. When I got out of it I just felt panic and went tught bsck into shutdown. I lost my job! Most of savings and 2,5 years of my life trying to get better. Basically I had to start from zero as if I was just 🍇ped a couple if days ago and all my progress over the years was gone. If you were 🍇ped as a child or anything like that be VERY careful with anything that forces you to split yourself up into unnatural parts and lets you reexperience you own abuse as a consequence. What actually helped in the end was the vagus nerve theory and somatic experiencing. Of course you are talking as well. But mostly working with regulating the nervoussytem and widening your window of tolerance. Traumatherapy has 3 stages: stabilisation, exposure and integration. And ISF as well as inner child work are a type of exposure therapy that belongs in the exposure and integration phases. But there are other methods you can use like EMDR, neurofeedback, somatic experiencing ect. I believe that ISF has it's place, but it can do damage as well.
I've always thought BPD was the result of neglect or abuse in the early years - How many people don't reallize they experienced some form of neglect in early life? It may not be severe enough to be realized by the child, but it still effects their mental development negatively. I didn't even realize I had been abused and neglected until someone TOLD me it wasn't normal.
Thank you, I always remain fascinated by these interviews, especially when some particular examples are told. As I often say, each person has a unique story that could in principle help all of us to better understand personality disorders and of course ourselves too. If you think, the "relation" in a broader sense is at the base of many things: it could be with ourselves and our internal feelings, or with other people, therapists or not. And in fact, I think that when two people meet each other, two different Universes, each with its own history, merge together and give life to something not always expected or expectable. Thus, for me understanding someone's feelings is not simply attributing a cause to a behaviour, but always triyng to retrace the one's past to better acknowledge his/her form of being in this World. Especially in cases as the one told by dr. Yeomans. At least, this is my opinion 😊
from what I understand you could argue BPD comes from an extended form of PTSD, and certain triggers can cause similar reactions. BPD can be avoided if the PTSD traits are recognised early on. However PTSD is often used to describe somebody that already has a pretty complete personality - then develops trauma; whereas BPD is largely the personality itself that tends to certain traits, the trauma is formed very early on, often within the first 2 years. BPD also doesn't develop out of 1 circumstance, it's a long pattern of neglect or unpredictability and lack of support that creates BPD. PTSD can happen from one minute to the next, only needs a few weeks to brew.
Just stumbled across your page looking for BPD lectures/ info! You're my new FAVORITE PERSON lol just a JOKE!! Appreciate this channel and to see so many others that resonate with this and wish to understand and heal in their own ways. Love and light :3
Well young lady. Your presentation in this video is so bloody important and relevant that for you not to have 10 million views is NOT a reflection on the subject matter but more on how this "new world" and social media works. I am 59 and from Australia, I am well versed in the area of psychological issues and it is unfortunate that so many will not even know that your "question" exists in their life. This video brings a "conscious awareness" of just how diverse the life manifestations of this disorder can present. THANK YOU from Australia
It's also true that a lot of people block out the memories if they're too young they wouldn't even remember the trauma. A lot of people lie. I just heard another psychologist yesterday say that 90% of what people say is a lie which I don't believe that either but
Some people who hv had trauma in childhood do not accept that there has been any impact and appear to be very functional..... but they may have difficulties that they deny or can manage with denial or repression. Those people do not identify as having a mental health condition but they may have many related difficulties for example in terms of relating to others. Self reporting is not a reliable way to get data
According to Bessel van see Kolk those numbers on bpd and trauma are much higher. People just don't understand their own needs, so they put a barrier of toughness and denial. "I grew up without a father and a mother who screamed her guts out every night, didn't affect tho". Denial is creepy.
I mean, I CAN see traumas that played a part in my life, but there is definitly an underlying thing going on all my adult life. Thanks for this clip! /a middle aged man, just recently diagnosed.
I have BPD symptoms and can recollect all abandonment trauma. Most of it happened when I was 9 through teen years. Some folks with the traits or disorder do have preverbal and it goes way back / no sense of self.
I believe there’s a genetic vulnerability there. A sensitivity temperament which makes it easier for one person to be traumatised compared to a less sensitive individual. What I find very interesting is the link between autism/ADHD and BPD. We know that ADHD/autism can be co morbid and appear to come from the same place genetically and it makes me wonder if this is the “genetic” basis. This could explain why some people who don’t have huge amounts of trauma still end up with BPD. BPD like most things are on a spectrum. I believe that a dysfunctional environment/narcissistic type parenting/abuse can intensify the vulnerabilities that are already present. This explains why not everyone who have trauma end up with personality disorders, why some people with BPD don’t have a lot of trauma ( I believe everyone has some trauma at differing levels) and why some people struggle more than others. EDIT- I also wanted to add that autism is linked with gullibleness and being over trusting which again can make these people more vulnerable to being taken advantage of, leading to more trauma. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that BPD shares similarities with CPTSD and autism and even ADHD
There seems to be 4 components associated with developing/sustaining BPD. One which is conductive and 3 which are inherent. Trauma is the one which is conducive, in other words it creates the fertile ground, fragility and confusion for the disorder to develop. It is not a pre-requisite but only adds, more or less, susceptibility for it to manifest. That which seems to be necessarily inherent to BPD and which differentiates from PTSD or C-PTSD when all 3 come together, are: 1. An increased sensitivity and vulnerability to reactions associated with emotions, particularly associated with the amygdala 2. A set of beliefs and rationales which could be defined as 'bad thinking', meaning ill founded, as in overly cynical or overly idealistic and which tend to be held in such a strong manner that they override proper discernement of the subtleties and nuance of every different situation/person. Thinking patterns which are categorical, judgemental, undialectical, and thus generating inflexibility and a sense of entrapement, lack of resolution and helplessness. 3. A propensity and capacity for delusional thinking, similar to that seen in NPD, which I am quite certain no2. contributes to and allows to reach greater height or lengths than it would otherwise. For this we can understand why the first and foremost aspect to address in what is essentially a self-fulfilling and repeating cycle is no2. The undialectical 'bad thinking' component. Because no1. is of a biological nature and this sensitivity also holds positive attributes if kept in a healthy non volatile, non triggered state. Whereas no2. not only brings it's own problematic issues, but also creates the motivation to try and find relief and escape through indulging in delusional thinking. Which in turn, inevitably leads to further confusions, confllicts with others and reality, frustration, sense of alienation and new sense of threat. Which in turn leads back to no1.
How do we know that increased sensitivity is biological in nature and not the result of environmental conditioning? is it possible to measure this apparent sensitivity in a new born, for example? How is that measured? What factors are measured and now is it controlled for?
@@simeonmorris1774 There is a genetic component to heritability of these disorders, which suggests a biological cause. Temperaments can be genetic so if someone is born to a parent that has this inherent sensitivity/emotional volatility then they are at an increased risk of developing BPD. But I believe, and I think also the literature states that BPD almost always is caused by a combination of genetic predisposition and environment/trauma.
@@jessiearmstrong with the cause leaning heavily on the environment. A person without the susceptibility may still suffer BPD if they are abused enough, but that opposite can't be said. I think it is definitely a mistake to think that the reason a person suffers psychological distress is because of genetics. That makes it a genetic disorder not a psychological one. I would argue that it's more to do with a persons ability to resist the impact of trauma, rather than being susceptible to it. And epigenetics plays a huge part. It's entirely possible that generational trauma is both passed on via genes, and the home environment that is created by the expression of that inherited trauma. But still, the cause of the disorder is environmental: an unsafe environment during early development. A pyschological disorder, by its very definition cannot be biological in cause, because that makes it a brain disease of a neurological disorder rather than a psychological one: the pysche is not an object, it is a subject.
@@simeonmorris1774 I definitely didn't assert that it's purely genetic, because it isn't, but genetics do play a large role in whether someone will develop BPD or not and this is according to recent research (the Swedish twin study.) There are two genes that are implicated in the development of these disorders, the one for BPD overlaps with schizophrenia and bipolar. I think the cause is heritable temperament (such as neuroticism) and environment. I've spoken with people who had BPD children and I sympathise with them, because often times there are BPD people who did not have abusive childhoods but develop it anyway.
As a BPD I sure wish someone would have told me diet plays a massive role in moods! Its taken me decades to realise whats going on and its for ever changing too. Food I used to be able to eat, I can't now. Leafy greens are now off my list as the magnesium content is too high and litterly sends me insane, same with bananas and it takes days to wear off.
ok. i've heard the intro. how would you know if the causal influences took place before you were even self-aware? you wouldn't. you would have to ask of the primary caregivers you were then entirely dependent upon if they did this or that. what are the odds of their memories being anything but self-justifying? pretty high i would say so game over. continuing with the vid ...
Every day I feel like that little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike. Every day I want to run. Every day I want to hide, and feel compelled to warn people. And yet every day I stay. Well, nearly every day. This was a tough video to watch and some of the comments are even more difficult to read. Having spend my entire adult life in therapy I've been able to put many of the pieces back together but have come to the realization that a life continually shattered in childhood may never be made whole. It is important to know this, discern our limitations and realize that while some goals may remain out of reach, confidence and fulfillment can be gained from the quiet struggle. Some find Jesus, some find alcohol and drugs, some find meditation and therapy. Most important though, we must find a way forward that does not traumatize those around us, or we're just visiting our pain on others as our parents did with us.
what kind of trauma are you talking about? Schock trauma? Or developmental trauma? If somenone had a personality disorder, surely they have experienced disorder of the attachment relationship. Which is developmental trauma. Drip drip emotional abuse that can take many subtle forms...
Developmental trauma - interesting. To be addressed in a forthcoming video - can one separate PTSD from developmental trauma. Regardless, what Yeomans designates as the difference is the degree to which traumas fingers insinuate into many aspects of a person's life, such that they might then be exhibiting personality disorder symptoms and their treatment would be advised to follow that course.
Yes. It's complex and if someone feels trauma it needs to be self acknowledged and processed correctly. I'm just coming up from a few years of every mental health rabbit hole and complex ptsd like you said which is personal and unique to the person should not be brushed aside. That does take understanding what we are talking about (tools) and then the self work. No one is coming to save us and it's up to me 100% is what I had to first accept. ❤
Exactly. People don't understand that trauma is not the event. It's what happens in the mind and body in reaction to the event. There are some events that most people would react to in the same way like childhood sexual assault. Other events that people react to differently. It's one reason why trauma can be such a lonely experience when most people don't understand the trauma of a lost bike and the trauma sufferer is invalidated. I read an interview with the singer Debbie Harry where she said that she'd been r aped and her partner at the time Chris Stein's guitars stolen. For her, the guitars being taken where more of a problem than the attack on her. That would probably seem strange to most people, but her feelings about her experiences have to be accepted especially when supporting her recovery.
I've had full blown PTSD for years. There is no abandonment terror or engulfment fears in adult-onset PTSD. PTSD is awful. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It turns the life you once knew upside down to the point that you don't even recognize who you've become after the traumatic event. That said, in time, your brain does eventually begin to come out of the fight/flight state. If anything, what can happen in PTSD is that your brain can get stuck in the "freeze" state if you are isolating and ruminating on what happened. In all honesty, I can't even begin to imagine what PTSD does to a infant/toddler/young child's developing brain because of what I've personally experienced as a full grown adult whose brain had 46 years of life experience within it when my trauma occurred. In my limited experience, both the men and women I've known who have BPD show behavior that is far more erratic and dramatic than what most people with PTSD demonstrate. The exception mightt be those individual who develop the most severe form of PTSD from warzone trauma. One other thing, people with BPD seem to have at least one parent who is a narcissist that fails to love them unconditionally, and while all children who have a narcissist as a parent may not develop BPD, I've never encountered a person with BPD who does *not* have at least one narcissistic parent who only shows them what appears to be love/acceptance when they are perfect.
I just could not hear or even half way listen to ANY of this kind of stuff until after 2 years of ketamine infusions. That's how blocked up I was. I was just not ready. Not by a long shot.
I get that. I did at least two solid years of just being alone and in my wild feelings and pain to even have a chance to resonate with this type of depth. Not just this but all of the rabbit holes connected to mental awareness. I literally had to work out to get in shape for the real work outs. So I get you fully on your sharing ❤
telling someone the truth of your past because you want to feel totally honest with them is not an aggressive impulse to quote get back at them. I understand feeling like if you don't disclose that you are not being honest by omission.
BPD may be more or less valid diagnosis but is likely vastly over-diagnosed very stigmatizing and a very abused diagnosis. Much if not most transference is at least partially valid. I have always admired the work of Miriam Greenspan
I was undiagnosed Autistic and experienced neglect and emotional abuse and ended up with BPD symptoms. Highly sensitive person and a bunch of little T traumas and one big T
Doesn’t everyone experience a degree of crisis or trauma at some point? Isn’t BPD in some sense an acute or complex trauma, but crucially with a maladaptive trauma response that becomes a counter-productive or self-defeating learned survival strategy? And because it has the logic of cluster B, it is self-reinforcing and difficult to perceive objectively .
Yes. Knowing someone with BPD, I know that there was trauma in their early attachment development. It interfered with their sense of self. Trauma is when someone perceives a threat to their safety. Someone already has a sense of self though.
Maybe she was scared of being rejected, so she phrased it in such a bad way? In other words, she was imagining what would be thought of her and the pain of possible resulting rejection?
By fugue states do you mean Disassociative Identity Disorder? BPD is an identity as well as relating problem. On what you say regarding your condition is something my BPD has made clear to me. In order to handle my BPD I taught myself to be more situationally aware of the interactions I have. Listening to whats said, interpreting what was said and thinking about how my response will be received. It has cost me spontaneity but it does curb the worse affects of my BPD on others. Before saying something, think about how it will be received. You live in the world of mental illness but they may not understand it and it may hurt them.
integrated mind = I see a coherent story in my life which makes sense and gives me meaning. to tell myself a consistent story is one of the most powerful tools ever! integration of EVERYTHING I experienced without excluding ANYTHING and banning it into my subconscious where it creates suffering. interestingly, that is also my understanding of God: God is the ultimate Power in which the whole Universe lives. It integrates EVERYTHING into one.
Another experience that can trigger is the child who’s been ill, confined to bed long term between roughly ages 2 to 4 yrs, missed milestones of the vital senses coordinating, socialising & meanwhile parent can’t sit by the bedside 24/7… later the transitioning from child to adult brain connectors impaired, a reliance on childlike behaviour in stressful circumstances, I saw the outcome, no lack of love, physiological symptoms leading to mental, there’s no data for this group of individuals
They talk as having a car accident and being a child soldier are one and the same. Clearly there should be something in the psychological makeup of the child soldier leaving the individual more vulnerable to emotional disregulation.
Quickest way to fix BPD is to rename it. Brilliant. This is sadly propagated by pretty much all of the youtube gurus. Though i think the current thing is CPTSD.. everything is CPTSD. I just don't get what it would change, but he name.
It potentially changes the shame and stigma around it. For example, CPSTD directs the root cause in the name itself. (which wasn’t created on TH-cam btw. I believe it was potentially Pete walker, who is a licensed therapist and psychologist, coined the term) whereas “personality disorder” may make the individual feel there is something inherently wrong with the individual themself. (Can easily be interpreted “your personality is wrong and not the way it should be”) I have had therapists who get very split when it has come to diagnosing me. Everything from ADHD, to BPD, to bipolar disorder. And I’ve had therapists who will tell me “I don’t think you have BPD because you can clearly distinguish your feelings and articulate them.” But I have also done a FUCK ton of trauma work (like an exceptional amount most people could not afford because my family is wealthy) I felt very numb as a kid and definitely feel even looking back, my internal world was barely a shell. Now I feel everything vibrantly and express myself extremely well, but have needed to learn how to recognize what people are capable of giving me in terms of intimacy and presence. I’ve had pretty tumultuous relational issues for sure, but potentially it could be a sigh of growth that I am learning to choose to speak my truth, even if I lose people. I’m learning to let go of control. I had one therapist so vehement that I was ADHD. I’ve had therapists who hear I have had relational issues recently and just go straight to “you have BPD.” And I’ve had therapists who hate the DSM and believe I just had a lot of attachment trauma. All this has taught me honestly is that diagnosis doesn’t matter because it’s all fake and “educated speculation.” I just want a therapist who helps me feel my feelings, process mentally and emotionally painful events in my life, and give me relationship skills that help me find and maintain connections that I want. But yes, changing the name matters to some. Diagnoses matter to some. It doesn’t matter in the end though. What we are trying to all do is make sense of our emotional lives in an intellectual way so that we can feel safe to trust ourselves enough to process our feelings and live an embodied, but regulated, life. Please note, I have had many therapists because I could afford to and that I have been in therapy since I was nine. Also, every time I was hospitalized as a kid, I always got assigned a new psychiatrist and therapist.
@@sexykoreanchic123WOW! Yes! There was a few extraordinary comments and I think you just hit the spot on the dot 🎯! Your takeaway ability to articulate the sweet spot from as you said the luxury of various and lengthy therapy is exactly the conclusions I have come to about the potential God like complexes and so individually sure the mental health field is that it can actually harm and not even at least be neutral in it's approach. Anyways you already said it exact. Keep sharing your earned regulated wisdom. ❤
The difference is that a personality disorder is not curable where as PTSD/C-PTSD is. Not only does that matter for the person if they're being labelled for life, but also with their understanding of the potential for their own healing. It also means that people can be written off with medication for BPD instead of the costly and time consuming treatments for their trauma in the case of PTSD and more likely many traumas in the case of C-PTSD. Diagnosis means the development of treatments and for people in some parts of the world the difference between medical insurance covering their treatment or not.
@@BorderlinerNotes Hi, if you're hypervigilant .... then try Somatic Experiencing. A body-focused approached can calm down your fight/flight. This is a bottom-up approach, which differs to TFP's 'top-down' approach.
Personally as someone with c-ptsd and borderline personality disorder...I find it incredibly annoying when I come across someone with BPD without a history of any trauma. I feel like they give a bad rap on those that do not need to be blamed anymore than they have been. I also come across those with BPD without trauma..who seem to be less honest and insightful. More often they are married to their own stories of how they became this way. And i dont know if its just my personal experience, but many of them are annoying because they dont know who they are. I think that is one of the biggest things that set me apart between many other borderlines.
"They don't know who they are". It's a criterion for the disorder, lack of self. None of us know who we are. We've all been through trauma, early life attachment trauma and neglect. Preverbal trauma changes the personality and we are not even counscious of it. No one who is suffering from a mental health disorder, especially such a severe one doesn't need to "not be blamed anymore". Nobody should be blamed for a painful condition they didn't choose to have.
Feeling unsafe in early childhood typically unsafe around a caregiver is the etiology of BPD. Once a young adult goes some time with a sense of safety, the BPD resolves
There is no T traumas and t traumas. There is just trauma. People making the distinction are doing so based on what they think should be traumatic, on what society thinks should be traumatic. They're wrong. The smallest, most unassuming little things can be far more traumatic than what people think are T traumas, in part because people are much less understanding towards those. As for psychiatric diagnosis, they're all bullshit. A few years back I used to look at this channel and go, yeah, this really makes sense, narcissistic/borderline personality disorders are a thing. No. It's all just convenient little boxes to categorize people and their behaviors. When you start to look at what really matters - people's relationships, the environment they live in, the broader social, political, economical and cultural issues, their life history, their emotional needs and so on - you begin to realize there are no pathologies, no "disorders", no "illnesses", just different ways we humans adapt to life circunstances and events, some adaptive, some maladaptive. Everything has an explanation, every symptom has a cause, there are no chemical imbalances, there is nothing mythological about it. It's simply human nature. As for trauma, it is a neat little word that would reduce massively the size of books like the DSM. Which might just be precisely why they haven't included CPTSD as a diagnosis.
Sorry the difference between c-ptss and BPD isn't very clear to me. It is more likely to be BPD when the symptoms are pervasive throughout ones life? Symptoms come back in all areas : work/relationships/etc Whereas c-ptss and DiS is more likely when the person can 'function' in some parts of life but not in others?
I think you general description is how I understand it. I think of BPD having a syndrome of identify diffusion, basically meaning that the person can have extreme and rapidly shifting ideas about themselves and others. Gunderson basically said that all the other symptoms (abandonment, anger/rage, impulsivity, distrust in others and etc.) of BPD is "subsumed" by identity diffusion. Imagine having these unpredictable shifts in perception or others and self and how disruptive that would be to ones life. On the other had, I think of PTSD being a condition that has major disruptions in some areas of one's life, but not usually all and their sense of self (identity) is intact; consequently, making much easier to navigate most relationships overall. Hope this makes since.
Yes. Put someone with C-PTSD in a different environment and they'll react differently. The borderline will be the same because that's their personality. There's very little room for change. The C-PTSD person can feel safe or be triggered. They'll have some ability for awareness of their behaviour and emotions. It depends how severe their C-PTSD is. Trauma is not feeling safe. Borderlines have a fear of abandonment.
Have either of you two fine clinicians ever considered if the difference in the have and have nots is that they are neuroatypical? A sort of immunity ?
Well, when you heal the trauma, the BPD starts going away... so... yeah. Though it's worth noting that I didn't have my mental health issues become severe enough to be considered mental illness untill I started working on myself and healing mentally/emotionally. Before that point in my mid 20's, I'd more just say I had bad anxiety problems with a light BPD flavor (it only becomes a mental illness when it impacts your ability to live a fairly productive life). That's likely why most people with trauma aren't diagnosable with mental illness.
I have found what BPD patients claim to be traumatising, most people struggle to fathom how it would be a problem at all. For example: someone calling you a bad name is NOT traumatising yet a BPD person will massively over-react and then blame all of the behaviours on this so-called "trauma".
Yeah I call BS. BPD is real and it doesn’t even need trauma to develop. There are definitely genetic factures that contribute, and quite frankly just bad luck too.
Because every instance of rejection is a reenactment of the original wound by the invalidating parents. It's extremely painful and the trauma never gets to heal because of constant retraumatization.
Aren't we are discussing all of this to prevent this? In child development. But you cannot go into households to observe or interfere. It may never get better.
Attachment theory is very much discussed amongst social workers and family therapists. Of course they teach parents how to attune to their kids, it's not easy though.
The DSM is ridiculously antiquated re trauma. It doesn't even contain CPTSD and it ignores decades of research on neglect and bad parenting. TRAUMA is just one huge event, for most of humanity, trauma is death by a thousand small cuts
Being raised by a covert narcissist parent is Traumatic and it very often leads to the person developing BPD. It is capital T trauma, yet hard to detect, very insidious.
I am still curious to see what happens if someone puts 100 so called BPD patients into Peter Levines body based Trauma-Therapy. For me as a layman, who is doing Levines therapy form, its clear BPD is some form of Trauma response which is stuck in the body of the patient… as a son of an medical-scientist I have seen how often science was, over many decades, totally in the wrong place…😮
It's attachment trauma, can only be healed by attaching to someone healthy who will reparent. Therapists who work with attachment like psychodynamic therapists for example.
Should focus at least in part focus on attachment trauma? And CPTSD. Is the broader base not narrative? Could Jordan Peterson’s self authoring programme with its 7 epochs life narrative help?
The sailor story is SARCASM. We don't actually say these things to our loved ones. Humorless people like this guy fail to comprehend humor as a coping mechanism. His advice is saccharin.
The core beleifs that develop from trauma. I am not good enough. I will be abandoned. I don't need people that hurt me. Core values. I wonder if the bpd people without ptsd somehow developed the same core values.
Sorry to complicated, also would not want to go into therapy with all this also. There for me,some people would not be open to their sessions this deep. Me , perfect therapy.is a balance of telling me truth, and not label me to much. I've been labeled with lots of things.
I respect Professor Yeomans. However, I am disappointed that this video started on the topic of the aetiology of BPD, and then went completely away from that. In fact, this is the only video I've seen which even discussesthe causes of BPD. Why is this important, because imo if you do not understand the cause, then you are not treating the illness. Even Marsha Linehan's DBT is based on her own Biosocial theory. We are treating the symptoms, but not the cause. So, yes Professor Yeomans is right, and I'm glad the interviewer pointed out that she does not have any trauma, there are still things about BPD for which we still do not have answers. P.S. I loved Prof. Yeomans "Cloc-watching example' in this video: th-cam.com/video/6ZGnW28Vq9A/w-d-xo.html
i think its not a smart idea to do the trauma doesut cause bpd cause not all people with trauma have bpd you can do the same thing with anything like smoking or alcohol etc but trauma is a factor in bpd
No need to watch beyond 1 minute, that confirms You dont seem to know that the question will strengthen ignorance and gross misunderstanding of PTSD and C-PTSD. I just shiver at the Idea You might have done it purposely to get there, and conclude then that indeed the question now is getting interesting, when "discovering C-PTSD.. - To ... interesting.
Add in toxic exposure in the womb. Partial fetal alcohol syndrome, the US organisation for the prevention of FAS say BPD is an almost perfect fit for FAS. I have BPD and I know my mum has started drinking after giving birth to my older brother - self medicating and was alcohol dependent and still is to some degree. Apart from genetic sensitivity my brain took a hit from alcohol, probably attachment trauma, then other traumas. Like a lot of people. It’s not so funny how other brain conditions are treated with more compassion, but personality disorders less so. If recovery is part physical, part social, part spiritual (forgiveness and acceptance)
as yeoman's teacher mr Kernberg put it: people with BPD and NPD..have suboptimal parents, parents who are not empathetic, who are abusive in some way, don't see the child as a person in its own right so don't encourage the emergence of the true self...etc. That's all very traumatic for a child. That's why it is developmental trauma
That's meeee ! My mom was crazy/ insane !
You have just described my childhood. Thank God people can understand now how frightening it is as a child. More like terrifying. My mother was a narcissist. Would love to know more about all this.
Dr. Daniel Siegel also talks about parental attunement. Some parents can’t read or since their children’s responses and needs. They’re mentally or emotionally checked out or may have addictions, developmental or mental health issues or trauma of their own.
I see it as a chain of damage, investigating the history of your ancestors can be very insightful and healing. Of course, sometimes people are just s**tty, but in my experience, it's people passing on trauma as they don't have the strength to go inward and process it. I also think that bodywork has a lot to offer for these conditions.
@@PurplePassionPaper I wrote this to another post. but maybe helps to understand how developmental trauma happens: transference is the feelings the client 'transfers' onto the therapist (it is a kind of displacement: the feelings you have towards your mother/father/siblings are being transferred onto the therapist so you see them as if they were your mother or sister...etc..the 'as if' is important. if the client thinks that the therapist is actually her mother/sister/father...etc...then she is psychotic.
countertransference is the feelings that are aroused in the therapist by the client. there are two types of countertransference: 1, objective: the feelings aroused by the client through projective identification, 2, subjective countertransference: the therapist own feelings towards the client. It is really important that the therapist can differentiate between the two, so she won't confuse her own feelings with what the client projects into her.
projective identification: it is part of the countertransference. as is mentioned above, it is through the mechanism of projective identification the client dumps her unbearable feelings into the therapist. it is beyond projection. when the client projects feelings onto the therapist, she attributes her own feelings to the therapist, but she is not actively eliciting those feelings in the therapist. through projective identification, however, the client induces feelings in the therapist. She pressures the therapist through verbal and non-verbal communicatoin to feel those feelings she cannot bear. That's what borderlines do all the time. Evacuating their unbearable feelings into others through projective identification. That's one of the main reasons why it is so hard to be around them. (e.g. there's a girlfriend and a boyfriend with at a party with a group of friends. girfriend is flirting heavily with another man from the group while boyfriend is watching. boyfriend feels really humiliated, but doesn't want to make a scene, so he leaves the party and goes back home on his own. after the party is over and the grilfriend gets home, the boyfriend tells her that her flirting with another man in his face made him feel sad and humiliated. Borderline/narcissitic girfriend feels of course starts to feel bad about herself because she feels guilty and ashamed, but she cannot bear it. So she evacuates these feelings into the boyfriend: she raises her voice and accuses the boyfriend of being antisocial because he left her and the group of friends without saying goodbye. When there's projective identificatoin, there's always a 'hook' in the receiver: the boyfriend is actually quite an introvert and at other occasions he didn't really want to go out with her friends. So the boyfriend starts feeling guilty and ashamed, he feels that he is the bad one, because yes, he did leave the party without saying goodbye to the friends. So although he was the one humiliated and hurt, borderline/narcissitic girfriend successfully induced the feelings of guilt and shame in him through projective identification, so she doesn't need ot feel bad.
But projective identification is not always bad. It is the basis of empathy. When a friends tells you about the unfortunate things that happened to them and you start feeling sad, it is because your friend induced those feelings in you. and that's OK. we need to feel empathy towards each other. Also, the non-verbal baby communicates wth the mother through projective identification. When the baby feels hungry/in pain/uncomfortable, for the baby that's life threatening and persecuting. The baby needs to project these unbearable feelings into the mother. if the mother is responsive and can function as a container (the concept of container-contained comes from psychoanalysis, from Wilfrid Bion, and all other therapeutic modalities have co-opted it. If a therapist cannot contain the client, then she is not a good enough therapist), so if the mother can cootain the baby's unbearable feelings and think about it, feel it, do this for a suffcient amount of time and thus 'detoxify' them, process them for the baby and then project it back in a detoxified, bearable form, then the baby is contained. If the mother is a 'leaky container', and cannot detoxify the baby's projections, then what the baby will intorject is the 'nameless dread'. The concept of containing the feelings of the infant is quite similar to mentalisation. Children learn to mentalise - be aware of their own and other's internal states - because they are being accurately mentalised by adults: these adult can contain their negative feelings and can accurately mirror back the positive ones. Children develop personality disorders - I would rather say narcissistic/borderline/schizoid adaptations - because they have to adapt to inadequate caregivers who cannot provide the containing function becaus they are unresponsive/neglectful/abusive. What borderline clients need most is containment. Because they have never been contained by their caregivers. That's why they cannot regulate their emotions. Children learn to regulate their emotions and mentalise through a secure attachment with a responsive primary caregiver. Secure attachement is interactive co-regulation between mother and infant. People with narcissistic/borderline/schizoid/avoidant adaptations have never had caregivers who were securely attached and could contain their unbearable feelings. That's what is called developmental trauma. Alan N Shore is a neuro-psychoanalyst who is worth reading and a book called: 'Borderline, Narcissitic and Schizoid Adaptations - The Pursuit of Love, Admiratoin and Safety' by Elinor Greenberg. Hope this helps
People seem to only focus on the big T traumas but little T traumas can be and often are significantly impactful. The majority of my clients with BPD have C-PTSD consisting of the little T traumas. I have always approached BPD treatment from a trauma approach. I combine trauma-inform, attachment, and DBT. But I tend to work with “high functioning BPD” women.
Would you agree your high functioning patients have emotional empathy that have BPD (which you approach with trauma treatment) is very similar to C-PTSD? There's a theory that pwBPD that succeed in therapy have emotional empathy and are suffering from PTSD while failing patients don't have emotional empathy and are actually narcissists. Essentially meaning BPD doesn't exist as suggested, what do you think?
Understandable, given there are many who have experienced big t trauma with no Ill effects though.
@@susanramen1615 From my perspective, as an ex client who is (very recently) hopeful to again be a client soon - after promising myself I would never trust taking talk therapy again - it’s NOT just the trauma.... It is negative non trauma or micro aggression or micro trauma events prior to and especially AFTER a major trauma that can make one BPD. Maybe one or two BIG traumas sandwiched between lots of micro stuff.
I was always bragging to myself in my 20's/30's that I was AOK about losing a parent to suicide, and that I came out OK from it - I was ignoring how it was the LITTLE stuff combined with that one big thing that was ruining my life - that combined with all my baggage some from childhood and mostly from adulthood - plus what I saw as a very unethical situation with two social workers which certainly did not help matters - but thats another subject. JMHO.
Thank you so much. Sufferers of all these little t's have been ignored, forgotten and gaslight by the medical community.
My life has changed so much because a provider like you recognized and acknowledged my trauma. Thank you.
Yes. 🎯🎯
Many people who suffered from neglect or abuse don't recognize it was their normal.
Exactly
I honestly suspect its developmental or attachment trauma which almost no one will remember as a "capital T Trauma" but in essence it works the same way
...again a hypothesis lol. But I have a decently strong feeling about this.
I'm honestly surprised it's not treated with the same level of credibility as "capital T trauma" because to me it probably is that but due to no memory (nor can you ask a baby how it's feeling due to being traumatized) it becomes something that is a part of your personality and settles into you on a hard-wired and unconscious level. But that it is just as traumatic as Trauma.
I agree with you that there's an attachment component to BPD.
I know someone diagnosed with BPD who, as a baby, was laid down with their bottle propped up on a pillow facing a blank wall through the bars of the cot. That person's brain would not have been developing the way it's supposed to being held and looking into their mother's eyes while feeding.
My diagnosis, severe depression, depression with anxiety,b.p.d., bipolar disorder anxiety disorder only,you name it! Don't want a label anymore,and need therapy. We need to get off this thought that we need a label to help us 😢!!!!
I agree, labels can be helpful to some extent but can be very dehumanising if someone feels that that is their lot in life (it's not!). Find yourself a good relational therapist who will allow you to feel fully heard. Look into IFS (internal family systems) therapy too. Above all be compassionate to yourself, and I wish you good luck on your journey - you can do it! Speaking as someone who has done a lot of work on myself in therapy, I would say, do not lose heart, you can feel better if you are prepared to do the work with a good therapist, with whom you have a good rapport. Good luck 🙏
Gabor maté said : Trauma is not what happened to you but what happened inside you in response to the trauma event
Body and mind keeps the score. Yep.
I love listening to Frank Yeomans (as well as the other experts). Thanks for interviewing them on this channel!
Dr. Yeomans is a treasure trove of information and insight.
I also met diagnostic criteria for BPD for the better part of my life, with no history of "capital T trauma." Someone, maybe it was Yeomans, talked about the idea that BPD is developmental in the sense that primary caregivers can't meet the needs of the child or help them work through their problems. Not because of a noticeable deficiency in the parent, but because those needs are very hard to meet because the child is somewhere extreme on the social-sensorial spectrum. I believe this explains why BPD looks so much like trauma. But I think he's absolutely right about the fact that, as opposed to PDSD or even CPDSD, it's pervasive in every aspect of a person's life, cognition and emotion. I really believe that in the future, if we can say "this child has an emotional disturbance that predicts adult BPD" then we can teach parents to parent a little bit differently to offset that. I think it is true that the normal cultural things we say to children to instill resilience aren't heard correctly by children with this kind of emotional disturbance, including, "you can do this" (as someone else on the channel pointed out) or even, as I was told constantly at one point, "it's ok to cry." I would have benefitted from being given ways out of intolerable situations and also distractions. It took me about thirty five years to start learning to distract myself in a way that is similar to what most eight year olds seem to have learned. And I had to teach myself.
ADHD is a strong predictor of borderline
I assume you meant PTSD? Makes me wonder what you thought the D stood for PDSD.
@@NaNa-re3wcPedants of the world Unite!
@@idontcare8405is it? I recognize that I am a year late, but can you cite references?
I deeply appreciate this comment. I believe there is a strong link between trauma and BPD, as well as an overlap of BPD symptoms with "autism + developmental trauma."
Hi, severe neglect. Put into foster care. Sexually abused, suicide feelings as a child rose up to be a happy business person but I could not sustain it.
Self sabotage. I relate. I'm 4 years Into channels like this to figure it out. Keep searching. You got this. We got this together. ❤
You'll get it together, it's tough and not your fault. Not everything goes right all the time, but your luck can change if you realize everything has ups and downs.
I grew up in 7 homes . Borderline monther, schizophrenic dad . I have some bpd traites , but suffer more from anxiety and panic attacks . I have stable friendships and have worked most my life . feel disconnected from all my feelings at times. i had a very narcissistic foster mom . was very hard not being allowed to feel all my feelings
It continues to sadden me how people suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) are led to believe that BPD just happens. The fact is, it is very clearly a strategy to cope with severe narcissistic abuse in childhood. It's how a child must adapt mentally, emotionally and psychologically to the perverse and often abusive nature of those who gave birth to them, but can never be real parents to them.
I truly understand how difficult it is for someone with BPD to see this. However, reading David P. Celani's book "Leaving Home" makes it all so clear. Unfortunately, the mental health field often hurts many people when it ignores the unbelievable terror, shame, and harm created when a parent looks normal but lives from an ego structure that cannot tolerate needs and wants, boundaries, criticism, responsibility and has no access to love and respect from its infantile place of extreme selfish and self-centered existence.
Of course, the narcissist was horribly traumatized in childhood. But to allow anyone with BPD to believe that it's genetic or some disordered maladaptive aversion to emotions is hurtful. The narcissist could not tolerate anything other than complete adoration from their child, so the same child will have a terrified relationship to rage, which is something they likely felt most of the time in regards to the perversion of roles forced on them while simultaneously never getting their developmental needs met.
Thank you! So well put
Agree
Are you sure it's not genetic?
Boom!! 💥💥💥💥 Exactly! Don't change your clarity and keep spreading this message. I keep coming back to exactly what you expressed perfectly.
Well said. In my study and experience, this is true. I cannot say that BPD doesn't have a genetic factor but everything I have learned suggests that no GF is necessary at least.
The studies I read about that suggest a GF must exist find their evidence in studies of parents who supposedly raised their children well. I don't trust those parents to understand what they never learned. If one is unaware of healthy interaction for mental and emotional development, you will believe you did well in what you did do.
I am 40 and late diagnosed ADHD. I firmly believe that my constant emotional invalidation, and abuse just because i was seen as a problem child, and other traumatic things along the way, got me my BPD diagnosis. To this day I firmly believe it is incorrect, and it is instead CPTSD.
There's also behavioral overlap between women originally misdiagnosed with BPD, and then later diagnosed with high masking-related trauma from ASD+ADHD. Bearing in mind their parents are also likely undiagnosed masking-related trauma ASD+ADHD
I wonder if maybe both can be true. That some people get BPD from trauma. But there could be others that don’t. Ex: Smoking causes lung cancer, and many people who have lung cancer were smokers or exposed to industrial smoke etc. But some people just get lung cancer even though they never smoked or was around smoke. Both are true
BPD is so overdiagnosed in the US, most of the diagnoses are misdiagnoses.
The thing that distinguishes me (PTSD) from every person with BPD that I have ever known is that I do not fear abandonment, and hence I do not possess a paranoid, jealous streak.
I have ASD and experienced trauma and complex trauma growing up. Undiagnosed until my mid 50s, I must say that when looking at the criteria for BPD, I can check most every box. I'm not saying I have BPD but I recognize the traits. A lifetime of inability to initiate or maintain relationships, splitting, paranoia, psychotic episodes and suicidal thoughts are all a part of my experience. Is it possible that in some cases, ASD + PTSD results in BPD? ASD typically has genetic underpinnings not unlike BPD which results in, among other things, confusion in understanding the motivations of others. There are those that suggest the ASD experience is traumatic on a good day and is typically internalized out of shame. ASD plus abuse, invalidation, neglect, violence or other forms of trauma in childhood has a profound effect on an individual's sense of self identity. Is it a coincidence that females are underreported with ASD because of their innate ability to conceal their traits while many diagnosed later in life with BPD are in fact female? Not suggesting that ASD + PTSD = BPD in all cases, but when so many with ASD conceal traits even from themselves, trauma, even quiet trauma over time may lend itself to personality disorders. Just some thoughts.
I'm in agreement, and couldn't have put it so well. Thank you.
I think the criteria for BPD can be looked at as symptoms. Many people experience those symptoms in their life, arguably everyone. When combing through my own journey, I can see that there have been times (especially at the beginning of my hours when things were the least treated and understood) more of those symptoms were present. I think BPD is a spectrum, but I also believe in order and I truly have BPD perhaps other conditions like trauma and ADH/ASD need to be managed. If after management someone still meets the criteria for a personality disorder then you could say they truly have it or they're severe or perhaps if they don't you could determine l, like I said, more of the "symptoms" from the other conditions. Also, as a spectrum, a lot of people will identify with the symptoms/traits at some point, but are they constant everyday? How many of them are happening everyday for the last 6-12 months or how many are occurring every week. The other point id like to make is depression. A lot of people confuse the emptiness of long term depression with BPD emptiness and I think therapists latch on to comments around empty or hollow and alarm bells go off for BPD, but along my journey and moving out of my 20s and getting to a place of stability, I can see clearly that I've always had a sense of self even if I didn't know it at times.
@@SamanthaParker-ir2gq Thank you for your comments. These are complex questions and honestly I don't believe psychologists and clinicians can fully provide us with answers, only paths for pursuit. For myself, neurodivergence appears to be the ground floor condition that other challenges quickly piled up on. Trauma for an infant that is wired neurodivergent may not be so readily recognized; a significant portion of that may fall silently into the realm of insecure attachment. An early relationship with the mother (not necessarily by any particular fault of the mother) that results in disorganized attachment, the sense of one's self worthiness and the trustworthiness of others becomes becomes distorted. Neurodivergence is a recipe for difficulty in relations and communications in general throughout life. As a child grows up, relationship traumas are bound to pile up.
Virtually all of my lifelong difficulties are around relations, communications and the inability to form secure attachments on any level. Add trauma and stress and the internal experience seeps into the outer realm, sometimes awkwardly, sometimes explosively. Internally, I have intense feelings of needing to connect but I know I'll be betrayed once the person finds out who I am. The emotional disregulation becomes impossible to mask. Then comes the splitting, the rage, the distorted thinking, the paranoia, the dissociation and all the other wonderful traits associated with BPD. As you were saying, there is so much overlap in symptoms and traits that what it's called matters less. Whether it's symptoms associated with trauma, CPTSD, ADHD/ASD or BPD or whether it's a full blown personality disorder, the distinction starts to lose importance. What is important is that the symptoms have to be treated or managed in some way.
I am better able to manage all of this through careful isolation where I can control my environment, monitor my internal state, avoid stress and focus on interests that do have positive results. In this way I'm better able to find and maintain an internal state of balance. Still, I can feel when the episodes are coming on. Sometimes it's a minor event that sets me into a rage. Other times it's an inconsolable ache that grows steadily inside. It can last for days or weeks or longer and all the traits can resume. I can feel it coming on in my brain, in my body and my heartrate, though I'm better now at not feeding it. There can be periods where the traits fully subside and I'm feeling good. Those times are such a blessing.
At my age I'm settling in with the reality that I will never experience the attachment I've sought throughout my life. It's not possible for me and there's a peace in resigning to that. I have some years left and there is meaningfulness to be had. Creating with my hands has always been a good channel for intense feelings. Diet and exercise plays a very important role in my sense of wellbeing. I can take life or leave it and there's a peace in that as well. Blessings on your journey, Samantha and thank you again for sharing your thoughts.
For something is diagnosed as a disorder you have to present symptoms for a minimum of 2 years. So,for BPD, you have presnt with at least 7 of the 9 traits for BPD for 2 years.
@@samanthaginnifer7374 Personally, I've experienced BPD symptoms since fairly early childhood and I can tick every box in terms of traits. Not all at once. The traits are not always full blown, it's a spectrum and sometimes there's remission. I learned to mask symptoms and keep it "quiet". I've managed in most areas well enough to conceal the inner distress, except for when it comes to relationships. The intense need to attach, the agony and the rage when it fails cannot be concealed. It's gotten me into trouble and it's just better to accept relationships are not in the cards for me. I treasure my isolation and I guard it jealously. I come out for brief interaction when I'm ready. There are areas in which I enjoy success and immense satisfaction. Human relations is not one of them.
My question is how can anyone ever be sure that they don’t have trauma?
My guess would be general happiness/ stable mood, balanced perspective, constructive habits, good character & and good/ balanced socialization. These traits seem to be adversely affected most by trauma. Reverse those, and I'm guessing that's what a person without trauma (or at least healed from trauma) looks like. 🤷♀️
@ajhproductions2347 remember the superstars in High School, the successful ones who were popular and are now VERY well off… yea THOSE are the ones that didn’t have trauma. Their parents worshipped them and that’s why they were successful.
Everyone has trauma. It's part of being alive and able to feel safe or not. No one goes through life without losing a loved one or having an accident or health scare or getting lost etc. Some people just go into denial better than others or their coping mechanism/s are still working for them.
How a person looks on the outside is no reflection of what's going on for them on the inside. Success in some area does not mean that a person was loved or taken proper care of. It can mean the opposite and they've compensated.
Anyone who says that they haven't experienced trauma lacks awareness.
This woman clarified by saying big T trauma. As trauma is how a person reacts to an event, not the event itself, she can't know how big that trauma is because it can lay quite for years.
I've always thought BPD was the result of neglect or abuse in the early years - How many people don't reallize they experienced some form of neglect in early life such as emotional neglect?
It's not severe enough to be realized by the child, but it still effects their mental development negatively.
@@BrooklynBaby100That seems like a somewhat simplified generalization to me. I agree that trauma and mental illness are probably less common in the more socioeconomically successful parts of the population. Tbh, there's probably lots of traumatized "high school superstars" who have simply adopted coping mechanisms that are more adaptive in our society (NPD comes to mind).
So helpful to hear this discussion. I have BPD and heaps of displaced anger. I'm now working on developing my empathy so I don't feel so alone.
"an aggressive impulse"! bloody hell! the fury that person must have felt is mind-bending! think aileen wuornos!
I have parts of my past I can’t remember. I ran away from home at 12 and again at 15
I have bpd and my teenage years looked more like antisocial personality disorder to a degree. I have cptsd. It bothers me that I can not remember parts of my life. I tested with an iq of 145 however did not even finish highschool and have a hard time with basic writing skills at times. So weird.
Sounds like a lot of gifted people I know. the HealthyGamer channel talks a lot about gifted kids and how it actually causes trauma.
IFS has a lovelier and better explanation of BPD trauma. Exiled parts of us respond to the trauma by protecting differently, based on which protective behaviour works best in the situation we are in. BPD parts usually consist of a recruiter (always in search of an unconditionally loving parent) and a highly suspicious part (both polarised), and parts that are extremely self destructive as well. Understanding the trauma of these exiled parts free the protectors from their roles and rigid behaviours. Depathologising the borderline client by Dr Richard Schwartz was really enlightening.
Thank you for this suggestion.
Don't use ISF for c-ptsd! I was sa as a child and that approach wrecked me. And I mean wrecked me. I ended up in constant dissociation ( freeze ), depersonalisation and derealisation. When I got out of it I just felt panic and went tught bsck into shutdown. I lost my job! Most of savings and 2,5 years of my life trying to get better.
Basically I had to start from zero as if I was just 🍇ped a couple if days ago and all my progress over the years was gone.
If you were 🍇ped as a child or anything like that be VERY careful with anything that forces you to split yourself up into unnatural parts and lets you reexperience you own abuse as a consequence.
What actually helped in the end was the vagus nerve theory and somatic experiencing. Of course you are talking as well. But mostly working with regulating the nervoussytem and widening your window of tolerance.
Traumatherapy has 3 stages: stabilisation, exposure and integration. And ISF as well as inner child work are a type of exposure therapy that belongs in the exposure and integration phases. But there are other methods you can use like EMDR, neurofeedback, somatic experiencing ect.
I believe that ISF has it's place, but it can do damage as well.
Thanks for this!
The movie Shutters island is a great depiction of this. It is a great watch.
I really appreciate Dr. Yeoman. He's very sensitive.
Great format and very well explained as always. Frank Yeomans is amazing!
Another remarkable video! Thank you for these discussions
I've always thought BPD was the result of neglect or abuse in the early years - How many people don't reallize they experienced some form of neglect in early life?
It may not be severe enough to be realized by the child, but it still effects their mental development negatively.
I didn't even realize I had been abused and neglected until someone TOLD me it wasn't normal.
Thank you, I always remain fascinated by these interviews, especially when some particular examples are told. As I often say, each person has a unique story that could in principle help all of us to better understand personality disorders and of course ourselves too. If you think, the "relation" in a broader sense is at the base of many things: it could be with ourselves and our internal feelings, or with other people, therapists or not. And in fact, I think that when two people meet each other, two different Universes, each with its own history, merge together and give life to something not always expected or expectable. Thus, for me understanding someone's feelings is not simply attributing a cause to a behaviour, but always triyng to retrace the one's past to better acknowledge his/her form of being in this World. Especially in cases as the one told by dr. Yeomans. At least, this is my opinion 😊
Lovely comment
Thank you for the interview doctor John Padgett
Wow, just wonderful as ever. This and the last video are helping me integrate some of the violence in my speech. It feels very important. Thank you 🙏🏼
Speech isn't violence.
from what I understand you could argue BPD comes from an extended form of PTSD, and certain triggers can cause similar reactions. BPD can be avoided if the PTSD traits are recognised early on.
However PTSD is often used to describe somebody that already has a pretty complete personality - then develops trauma; whereas BPD is largely the personality itself that tends to certain traits, the trauma is formed very early on, often within the first 2 years. BPD also doesn't develop out of 1 circumstance, it's a long pattern of neglect or unpredictability and lack of support that creates BPD. PTSD can happen from one minute to the next, only needs a few weeks to brew.
Just stumbled across your page looking for BPD lectures/ info! You're my new FAVORITE PERSON lol just a JOKE!! Appreciate this channel and to see so many others that resonate with this and wish to understand and heal in their own ways. Love and light :3
I have major CTPSD and PTSD , I tick all boxes of BP. However the way he describes BP is helping me lot. Thank you
Well young lady. Your presentation in this video is so bloody important and relevant that for you not to have 10 million views is NOT a reflection on the subject matter but more on how this "new world" and social media works. I am 59 and from Australia, I am well versed in the area of psychological issues and it is unfortunate that so many will not even know that your "question" exists in their life. This video brings a "conscious awareness" of just how diverse the life manifestations of this disorder can present. THANK YOU from Australia
Thanks so much to both of you for making and posting these videos!
It's also true that a lot of people block out the memories if they're too young they wouldn't even remember the trauma. A lot of people lie. I just heard another psychologist yesterday say that 90% of what people say is a lie which I don't believe that either but
Depends on the severity of trauma and other factors like parenting. Look at the parents of BPD sufferers
Yes 💯
Asking the hard questions 💚
Some people who hv had trauma in childhood do not accept that there has been any impact and appear to be very functional..... but they may have difficulties that they deny or can manage with denial or repression. Those people do not identify as having a mental health condition but they may have many related difficulties for example in terms of relating to others. Self reporting is not a reliable way to get data
According to Bessel van see Kolk those numbers on bpd and trauma are much higher. People just don't understand their own needs, so they put a barrier of toughness and denial. "I grew up without a father and a mother who screamed her guts out every night, didn't affect tho". Denial is creepy.
My parents are successful lawyers and mssed up people at home.
I mean, I CAN see traumas that played a part in my life, but there is definitly an underlying thing going on all my adult life. Thanks for this clip!
/a middle aged man, just recently diagnosed.
Its preverbal developmental trauma. That is why people with personality disorder dont remember their early abandoment trauma
I have BPD symptoms and can recollect all abandonment trauma. Most of it happened when I was 9 through teen years. Some folks with the traits or disorder do have preverbal and it goes way back / no sense of self.
I believe there’s a genetic vulnerability there. A sensitivity temperament which makes it easier for one person to be traumatised compared to a less sensitive individual.
What I find very interesting is the link between autism/ADHD and BPD. We know that ADHD/autism can be co morbid and appear to come from the same place genetically and it makes me wonder if this is the “genetic” basis.
This could explain why some people who don’t have huge amounts of trauma still end up with BPD. BPD like most things are on a spectrum. I believe that a dysfunctional environment/narcissistic type parenting/abuse can intensify the vulnerabilities that are already present.
This explains why not everyone who have trauma end up with personality disorders, why some people with BPD don’t have a lot of trauma ( I believe everyone has some trauma at differing levels) and why some people struggle more than others.
EDIT- I also wanted to add that autism is linked with gullibleness and being over trusting which again can make these people more vulnerable to being taken advantage of, leading to more trauma. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that BPD shares similarities with CPTSD and autism and even ADHD
What about transgenerational trauma? When i was a kid i had nightmares with many different war scenes.
Never experienced war myself.
Could it have been from a news program or television show/movie? Curious
@@Yourfavoritehermit thanks ❤️
There seems to be 4 components associated with developing/sustaining BPD. One which is conductive and 3 which are inherent. Trauma is the one which is conducive, in other words it creates the fertile ground, fragility and confusion for the disorder to develop. It is not a pre-requisite but only adds, more or less, susceptibility for it to manifest.
That which seems to be necessarily inherent to BPD and which differentiates from PTSD or C-PTSD when all 3 come together, are:
1. An increased sensitivity and vulnerability to reactions associated with emotions, particularly associated with the amygdala
2. A set of beliefs and rationales which could be defined as 'bad thinking', meaning ill founded, as in overly cynical or overly idealistic and which tend to be held in such a strong manner that they override proper discernement of the subtleties and nuance of every different situation/person. Thinking patterns which are categorical, judgemental, undialectical, and thus generating inflexibility and a sense of entrapement, lack of resolution and helplessness.
3. A propensity and capacity for delusional thinking, similar to that seen in NPD, which I am quite certain no2. contributes to and allows to reach greater height or lengths than it would otherwise.
For this we can understand why the first and foremost aspect to address in what is essentially a self-fulfilling and repeating cycle is no2. The undialectical 'bad thinking' component. Because no1. is of a biological nature and this sensitivity also holds positive attributes if kept in a healthy non volatile, non triggered state. Whereas no2. not only brings it's own problematic issues, but also creates the motivation to try and find relief and escape through indulging in delusional thinking. Which in turn, inevitably leads to further confusions, confllicts with others and reality, frustration, sense of alienation and new sense of threat.
Which in turn leads back to no1.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. Very informative.
How do we know that increased sensitivity is biological in nature and not the result of environmental conditioning? is it possible to measure this apparent sensitivity in a new born, for example? How is that measured? What factors are measured and now is it controlled for?
@@simeonmorris1774 There is a genetic component to heritability of these disorders, which suggests a biological cause. Temperaments can be genetic so if someone is born to a parent that has this inherent sensitivity/emotional volatility then they are at an increased risk of developing BPD. But I believe, and I think also the literature states that BPD almost always is caused by a combination of genetic predisposition and environment/trauma.
@@jessiearmstrong with the cause leaning heavily on the environment. A person without the susceptibility may still suffer BPD if they are abused enough, but that opposite can't be said.
I think it is definitely a mistake to think that the reason a person suffers psychological distress is because of genetics. That makes it a genetic disorder not a psychological one. I would argue that it's more to do with a persons ability to resist the impact of trauma, rather than being susceptible to it. And epigenetics plays a huge part. It's entirely possible that generational trauma is both passed on via genes, and the home environment that is created by the expression of that inherited trauma. But still, the cause of the disorder is environmental: an unsafe environment during early development. A pyschological disorder, by its very definition cannot be biological in cause, because that makes it a brain disease of a neurological disorder rather than a psychological one: the pysche is not an object, it is a subject.
@@simeonmorris1774 I definitely didn't assert that it's purely genetic, because it isn't, but genetics do play a large role in whether someone will develop BPD or not and this is according to recent research (the Swedish twin study.) There are two genes that are implicated in the development of these disorders, the one for BPD overlaps with schizophrenia and bipolar. I think the cause is heritable temperament (such as neuroticism) and environment. I've spoken with people who had BPD children and I sympathise with them, because often times there are BPD people who did not have abusive childhoods but develop it anyway.
I wonder what the data would show, if you separate the trauma population, into attachment wounding, physical trauma, and both.
As a BPD I sure wish someone would have told me diet plays a massive role in moods! Its taken me decades to realise whats going on and its for ever changing too. Food I used to be able to eat, I can't now. Leafy greens are now off my list as the magnesium content is too high and litterly sends me insane, same with bananas and it takes days to wear off.
Very, very good question.
Also many people had trauma cover it unconsciously under traumatic amnesia and they truly think they never had trauma.
Thank you Doc Frank & Doc Carsky! :) .
ok. i've heard the intro.
how would you know if the causal influences took place before you were even self-aware? you wouldn't. you would have to ask of the primary caregivers you were then entirely dependent upon if they did this or that. what are the odds of their memories being anything but self-justifying? pretty high i would say so game over.
continuing with the vid ...
I am unable to create or maintain any meaningful anything in my life no matter how hard try.
Knowing you 'have trauma' is to have purchase on one's state. Perhaps asking people if they have trauma is not the best way to work this stuff out.
Every day I feel like that little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike. Every day I want to run. Every day I want to hide, and feel compelled to warn people. And yet every day I stay. Well, nearly every day.
This was a tough video to watch and some of the comments are even more difficult to read. Having spend my entire adult life in therapy I've been able to put many of the pieces back together but have come to the realization that a life continually shattered in childhood may never be made whole. It is important to know this, discern our limitations and realize that while some goals may remain out of reach, confidence and fulfillment can be gained from the quiet struggle. Some find Jesus, some find alcohol and drugs, some find meditation and therapy. Most important though, we must find a way forward that does not traumatize those around us, or we're just visiting our pain on others as our parents did with us.
what kind of trauma are you talking about? Schock trauma? Or developmental trauma? If somenone had a personality disorder, surely they have experienced disorder of the attachment relationship. Which is developmental trauma. Drip drip emotional abuse that can take many subtle forms...
Developmental trauma - interesting. To be addressed in a forthcoming video - can one separate PTSD from developmental trauma. Regardless, what Yeomans designates as the difference is the degree to which traumas fingers insinuate into many aspects of a person's life, such that they might then be exhibiting personality disorder symptoms and their treatment would be advised to follow that course.
This is a great channel
Traumas as every other experience are subjective.. One can suffer tremendously from a "small event" like "they stole my bike".
Yes. It's complex and if someone feels trauma it needs to be self acknowledged and processed correctly. I'm just coming up from a few years of every mental health rabbit hole and complex ptsd like you said which is personal and unique to the person should not be brushed aside. That does take understanding what we are talking about (tools) and then the self work. No one is coming to save us and it's up to me 100% is what I had to first accept. ❤
Exactly. People don't understand that trauma is not the event. It's what happens in the mind and body in reaction to the event.
There are some events that most people would react to in the same way like childhood sexual assault. Other events that people react to differently. It's one reason why trauma can be such a lonely experience when most people don't understand the trauma of a lost bike and the trauma sufferer is invalidated.
I read an interview with the singer Debbie Harry where she said that she'd been r aped and her partner at the time Chris Stein's guitars stolen. For her, the guitars being taken where more of a problem than the attack on her. That would probably seem strange to most people, but her feelings about her experiences have to be accepted especially when supporting her recovery.
I've had full blown PTSD for years. There is no abandonment terror or engulfment fears in adult-onset PTSD. PTSD is awful. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It turns the life you once knew upside down to the point that you don't even recognize who you've become after the traumatic event. That said, in time, your brain does eventually begin to come out of the fight/flight state. If anything, what can happen in PTSD is that your brain can get stuck in the "freeze" state if you are isolating and ruminating on what happened. In all honesty, I can't even begin to imagine what PTSD does to a infant/toddler/young child's developing brain because of what I've personally experienced as a full grown adult whose brain had 46 years of life experience within it when my trauma occurred.
In my limited experience, both the men and women I've known who have BPD show behavior that is far more erratic and dramatic than what most people with PTSD demonstrate. The exception mightt be those individual who develop the most severe form of PTSD from warzone trauma. One other thing, people with BPD seem to have at least one parent who is a narcissist that fails to love them unconditionally, and while all children who have a narcissist as a parent may not develop BPD, I've never encountered a person with BPD who does *not* have at least one narcissistic parent who only shows them what appears to be love/acceptance when they are perfect.
Therapy in the UK ignored my trauma. I was treated for EUPD and discharged.
I just could not hear or even half way listen to ANY of this kind of stuff until after 2 years of ketamine infusions. That's how blocked up I was. I was just not ready. Not by a long shot.
I get that. I did at least two solid years of just being alone and in my wild feelings and pain to even have a chance to resonate with this type of depth. Not just this but all of the rabbit holes connected to mental awareness. I literally had to work out to get in shape for the real work outs. So I get you fully on your sharing ❤
Excellent video 👍🏼
telling someone the truth of your past because you want to feel totally honest with them is not an aggressive impulse to quote get back at them. I understand feeling like if you don't disclose that you are not being honest by omission.
you can't tell what someone's motivations are by the phraseology that they use when they describe their trauma. That's where psychiatrists go too far.
BPD may be more or less valid diagnosis but is likely vastly over-diagnosed very stigmatizing and a very abused diagnosis. Much if not most transference is at least partially valid. I have always admired the work of Miriam Greenspan
I was undiagnosed Autistic and experienced neglect and emotional abuse and ended up with BPD symptoms. Highly sensitive person and a bunch of little T traumas and one big T
Doesn’t everyone experience a degree of crisis or trauma at some point? Isn’t BPD in some sense an acute or complex trauma, but crucially with a maladaptive trauma response that becomes a counter-productive or self-defeating learned survival strategy? And because it has the logic of cluster B, it is self-reinforcing and difficult to perceive objectively .
No not everyone.
Yes. Knowing someone with BPD, I know that there was trauma in their early attachment development. It interfered with their sense of self. Trauma is when someone perceives a threat to their safety. Someone already has a sense of self though.
BPD is attachment (developmental, interpersonal) trauma.
Maybe she was scared of being rejected, so she phrased it in such a bad way? In other words, she was imagining what would be thought of her and the pain of possible resulting rejection?
By fugue states do you mean Disassociative Identity Disorder? BPD is an identity as well as relating problem.
On what you say regarding your condition is something my BPD has made clear to me. In order to handle my BPD I taught myself to be more situationally aware of the interactions I have. Listening to whats said, interpreting what was said and thinking about how my response will be received. It has cost me spontaneity but it does curb the worse affects of my BPD on others. Before saying something, think about how it will be received. You live in the world of mental illness but they may not understand it and it may hurt them.
I have C-PTSD my partner has BPD I know them intimately and separately...
integrated mind = I see a coherent story in my life which makes sense and gives me meaning.
to tell myself a consistent story is one of the most powerful tools ever!
integration of EVERYTHING I experienced without excluding ANYTHING and banning it into my subconscious where it creates suffering.
interestingly, that is also my understanding of God: God is the ultimate Power in which the whole Universe lives. It integrates EVERYTHING into one.
“God is a concept…for which, we measure our pain”- John Lennon.
Another experience that can trigger is the child who’s been ill, confined to bed long term between roughly ages 2 to 4 yrs, missed milestones of the vital senses coordinating, socialising & meanwhile parent can’t sit by the bedside 24/7… later the transitioning from child to adult brain connectors impaired,
a reliance on childlike behaviour in stressful circumstances, I saw the outcome, no lack of love, physiological symptoms leading to mental, there’s no data for this group of individuals
They talk as having a car accident and being a child soldier are one and the same. Clearly there should be something in the psychological makeup of the child soldier leaving the individual more vulnerable to emotional disregulation.
Quickest way to fix BPD is to rename it. Brilliant. This is sadly propagated by pretty much all of the youtube gurus. Though i think the current thing is CPTSD.. everything is CPTSD. I just don't get what it would change, but he name.
Agree!!!!
It potentially changes the shame and stigma around it. For example, CPSTD directs the root cause in the name itself. (which wasn’t created on TH-cam btw. I believe it was potentially Pete walker, who is a licensed therapist and psychologist, coined the term) whereas “personality disorder” may make the individual feel there is something inherently wrong with the individual themself. (Can easily be interpreted “your personality is wrong and not the way it should be”) I have had therapists who get very split when it has come to diagnosing me. Everything from ADHD, to BPD, to bipolar disorder. And I’ve had therapists who will tell me “I don’t think you have BPD because you can clearly distinguish your feelings and articulate them.” But I have also done a FUCK ton of trauma work (like an exceptional amount most people could not afford because my family is wealthy) I felt very numb as a kid and definitely feel even looking back, my internal world was barely a shell. Now I feel everything vibrantly and express myself extremely well, but have needed to learn how to recognize what people are capable of giving me in terms of intimacy and presence. I’ve had pretty tumultuous relational issues for sure, but potentially it could be a sigh of growth that I am learning to choose to speak my truth, even if I lose people. I’m learning to let go of control.
I had one therapist so vehement that I was ADHD. I’ve had therapists who hear I have had relational issues recently and just go straight to “you have BPD.” And I’ve had therapists who hate the DSM and believe I just had a lot of attachment trauma. All this has taught me honestly is that diagnosis doesn’t matter because it’s all fake and “educated speculation.” I just want a therapist who helps me feel my feelings, process mentally and emotionally painful events in my life, and give me relationship skills that help me find and maintain connections that I want.
But yes, changing the name matters to some. Diagnoses matter to some. It doesn’t matter in the end though. What we are trying to all do is make sense of our emotional lives in an intellectual way so that we can feel safe to trust ourselves enough to process our feelings and live an embodied, but regulated, life.
Please note, I have had many therapists because I could afford to and that I have been in therapy since I was nine. Also, every time I was hospitalized as a kid, I always got assigned a new psychiatrist and therapist.
@@sexykoreanchic123WOW! Yes! There was a few extraordinary comments and I think you just hit the spot on the dot 🎯! Your takeaway ability to articulate the sweet spot from as you said the luxury of various and lengthy therapy is exactly the conclusions I have come to about the potential God like complexes and so individually sure the mental health field is that it can actually harm and not even at least be neutral in it's approach. Anyways you already said it exact. Keep sharing your earned regulated wisdom. ❤
The difference is that a personality disorder is not curable where as PTSD/C-PTSD is. Not only does that matter for the person if they're being labelled for life, but also with their understanding of the potential for their own healing. It also means that people can be written off with medication for BPD instead of the costly and time consuming treatments for their trauma in the case of PTSD and more likely many traumas in the case of C-PTSD. Diagnosis means the development of treatments and for people in some parts of the world the difference between medical insurance covering their treatment or not.
How do you known that you haven't complex ptsd from attachment trauma?
Whatever may be the reasons, I believe I am constitutionally hypervigilant and the treatment for BPD is what's helped me, not a trauma treatment.
@@BorderlinerNotes Thank you very much for your quick reply and your answer!
@@BorderlinerNotes Hi, if you're hypervigilant .... then try Somatic Experiencing. A body-focused approached can calm down your fight/flight. This is a bottom-up approach, which differs to TFP's 'top-down' approach.
Personally as someone with c-ptsd and borderline personality disorder...I find it incredibly annoying when I come across someone with BPD without a history of any trauma. I feel like they give a bad rap on those that do not need to be blamed anymore than they have been. I also come across those with BPD without trauma..who seem to be less honest and insightful. More often they are married to their own stories of how they became this way. And i dont know if its just my personal experience, but many of them are annoying because they dont know who they are. I think that is one of the biggest things that set me apart between many other borderlines.
"They don't know who they are". It's a criterion for the disorder, lack of self. None of us know who we are.
We've all been through trauma, early life attachment trauma and neglect. Preverbal trauma changes the personality and we are not even counscious of it.
No one who is suffering from a mental health disorder, especially such a severe one doesn't need to "not be blamed anymore". Nobody should be blamed for a painful condition they didn't choose to have.
Feeling unsafe in early childhood typically unsafe around a caregiver is the etiology of BPD. Once a young adult goes some time with a sense of safety, the BPD resolves
There is no T traumas and t traumas. There is just trauma. People making the distinction are doing so based on what they think should be traumatic, on what society thinks should be traumatic. They're wrong. The smallest, most unassuming little things can be far more traumatic than what people think are T traumas, in part because people are much less understanding towards those.
As for psychiatric diagnosis, they're all bullshit. A few years back I used to look at this channel and go, yeah, this really makes sense, narcissistic/borderline personality disorders are a thing. No. It's all just convenient little boxes to categorize people and their behaviors. When you start to look at what really matters - people's relationships, the environment they live in, the broader social, political, economical and cultural issues, their life history, their emotional needs and so on - you begin to realize there are no pathologies, no "disorders", no "illnesses", just different ways we humans adapt to life circunstances and events, some adaptive, some maladaptive. Everything has an explanation, every symptom has a cause, there are no chemical imbalances, there is nothing mythological about it. It's simply human nature. As for trauma, it is a neat little word that would reduce massively the size of books like the DSM. Which might just be precisely why they haven't included CPTSD as a diagnosis.
Boom! 💥💥💥 You and I automatically get along with that unpacking ❤
🤣
The only people who don't believe in diagnoses on the psychopathy spectrum are--you guessed it--psychopaths.
Well said.
Rebbie Rocks!
Sorry the difference between c-ptss and BPD isn't very clear to me.
It is more likely to be BPD when the symptoms are pervasive throughout ones life? Symptoms come back in all areas : work/relationships/etc
Whereas c-ptss and DiS is more likely when the person can 'function' in some parts of life but not in others?
I think you general description is how I understand it. I think of BPD having a syndrome of identify diffusion, basically meaning that the person can have extreme and rapidly shifting ideas about themselves and others. Gunderson basically said that all the other symptoms (abandonment, anger/rage, impulsivity, distrust in others and etc.) of BPD is "subsumed" by identity diffusion. Imagine having these unpredictable shifts in perception or others and self and how disruptive that would be to ones life.
On the other had, I think of PTSD being a condition that has major disruptions in some areas of one's life, but not usually all and their sense of self (identity) is intact; consequently, making much easier to navigate most relationships overall. Hope this makes since.
Yes. Put someone with C-PTSD in a different environment and they'll react differently. The borderline will be the same because that's their personality. There's very little room for change. The C-PTSD person can feel safe or be triggered. They'll have some ability for awareness of their behaviour and emotions. It depends how severe their C-PTSD is. Trauma is not feeling safe. Borderlines have a fear of abandonment.
This study explains the difference:
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4165723/
Have either of you two fine clinicians ever considered if the difference in the have and have nots is that they are neuroatypical? A sort of immunity ?
BPD brains gave been studied and it is a neurodivergence.
Well, when you heal the trauma, the BPD starts going away... so... yeah. Though it's worth noting that I didn't have my mental health issues become severe enough to be considered mental illness untill I started working on myself and healing mentally/emotionally. Before that point in my mid 20's, I'd more just say I had bad anxiety problems with a light BPD flavor (it only becomes a mental illness when it impacts your ability to live a fairly productive life). That's likely why most people with trauma aren't diagnosable with mental illness.
Dissociation is really a problem
Yes.
It’s the the extent of the trauma
I have found what BPD patients claim to be traumatising, most people struggle to fathom how it would be a problem at all.
For example: someone calling you a bad name is NOT traumatising yet a BPD person will massively over-react and then blame all of the behaviours on this so-called "trauma".
Yeah I call BS.
BPD is real and it doesn’t even need trauma to develop. There are definitely genetic factures that contribute, and quite frankly just bad luck too.
Because every instance of rejection is a reenactment of the original wound by the invalidating parents. It's extremely painful and the trauma never gets to heal because of constant retraumatization.
Aren't we are discussing all of this to prevent this? In child development. But you cannot go into households to observe or interfere. It may never get better.
Attachment theory is very much discussed amongst social workers and family therapists. Of course they teach parents how to attune to their kids, it's not easy though.
Interestingly, there have been some studies recently that linked BPD in some women to polycystic ovary syndrome.
The DSM is ridiculously antiquated re trauma. It doesn't even contain CPTSD and it ignores decades of research on neglect and bad parenting. TRAUMA is just one huge event, for most of humanity, trauma is death by a thousand small cuts
Don't think one can be alive on the planet and not experience some sort of self-identified trauma.
Being raised by a covert narcissist parent is Traumatic and it very often leads to the person developing BPD. It is capital T trauma, yet hard to detect, very insidious.
yes!!
There's such a thing as having trauma in your history and not even knowing it... Ya.
the answer to this questions is i think: Trauma + Neuroticism
I am still curious to see what happens if someone puts 100 so called BPD patients into Peter Levines body based Trauma-Therapy. For me as a layman, who is doing Levines therapy form, its clear BPD is some form of Trauma response which is stuck in the body of the patient… as a son of an medical-scientist I have seen how often science was, over many decades, totally in the wrong place…😮
It's attachment trauma, can only be healed by attaching to someone healthy who will reparent. Therapists who work with attachment like psychodynamic therapists for example.
@ Levine proofs this statement wrong with his Somatic experience therapy… quite remarkable what he demonstrates….
Should focus at least in part focus on attachment trauma? And CPTSD.
Is the broader base not narrative? Could Jordan Peterson’s self authoring programme with its 7 epochs life narrative help?
What would be the reason for it otherwise? Of course it’s trauma
The sailor story is SARCASM. We don't actually say these things to our loved ones. Humorless people like this guy fail to comprehend humor as a coping mechanism. His advice is saccharin.
Sarcasm isn’t humor. Literal definition is that it intends to hurt the person where talking to. It doesn’t come from a place of love, ding a ling.
The core beleifs that develop from trauma. I am not good enough. I will be abandoned. I don't need people that hurt me. Core values. I wonder if the bpd people without ptsd somehow developed the same core values.
Absolutely. Attachment / developmental trauma is ingrained very deeply and people with BPD then to score very high on most schemas, if not all.
Sorry to complicated, also would not want to go into therapy with all this also. There for me,some people would not be open to their sessions this deep. Me , perfect therapy.is a balance of telling me truth, and not label me to much. I've been labeled with lots of things.
I respect Professor Yeomans. However, I am disappointed that this video started on the topic of the aetiology of BPD, and then went completely away from that. In fact, this is the only video I've seen which even discussesthe causes of BPD. Why is this important, because imo if you do not understand the cause, then you are not treating the illness. Even Marsha Linehan's DBT is based on her own Biosocial theory. We are treating the symptoms, but not the cause. So, yes Professor Yeomans is right, and I'm glad the interviewer pointed out that she does not have any trauma, there are still things about BPD for which we still do not have answers. P.S. I loved Prof. Yeomans "Cloc-watching example' in this video: th-cam.com/video/6ZGnW28Vq9A/w-d-xo.html
Sub optimal parents???
i think its not a smart idea to do the trauma doesut cause bpd cause not all people with trauma have bpd
you can do the same thing with anything like smoking or alcohol etc
but trauma is a factor in bpd
BPD is attachment trauma. Preverbal, very early age. Hence the fear of abandonment and extremely preoccupied attachement.
No need to watch beyond 1 minute, that confirms You dont seem to know that the question will strengthen ignorance and gross misunderstanding of PTSD and C-PTSD.
I just shiver at the Idea You might have done it purposely to get there, and conclude then that indeed the question now is getting interesting, when "discovering C-PTSD.. - To ... interesting.
BPD seems to be high functioning Aspys from hellish origin stories. ..from my point of view as a mere CogSci Jr, anyway...
Add in toxic exposure in the womb. Partial fetal alcohol syndrome, the US organisation for the prevention of FAS say BPD is an almost perfect fit for FAS.
I have BPD and I know my mum has started drinking after giving birth to my older brother - self medicating and was alcohol dependent and still is to some degree. Apart from genetic sensitivity my brain took a hit from alcohol, probably attachment trauma, then other traumas. Like a lot of people. It’s not so funny how other brain conditions are treated with more compassion, but personality disorders less so. If recovery is part physical, part social, part spiritual (forgiveness and acceptance)