Triumph TR6: Part II (The Ignition System)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- Matt continues to go through his new TR6 project to see what the car needs and if it might run. We take a brief look at the distributor and how the ignition system works, including an explanation on points and identifying if you have a ballasted ignition system. Stay tuned for more videos, and subscribe to the channel!
Man Am I ever glad your video's are still here! First year owner of a 75. I'm never selling. Thanks much.
Glad to help! I love a good TR6, and there really aren't any bad years.
Figuring out the correct coil is a super important skill. My local brit car shop did some work on my dist and put in a ballast, when my system already had a ballast wire. One of the guys behind the counter kept reversing the 3.5 vs 1.5 ohm info, also.
My aim is to get all of this information in one place. There are enough projects to go around, so I'll get to most components eventually. Thanks for subscribing!
@@midwestmotoring you bet, buddy!
Wow...what a great video! I rarely post comments but I've seen numerous tr6 videos and definitely this is one one the best.
Wow, thanks! I think I just got tired of the other videos not using tripods to keep the camera steady. :)
Excellent video…… some triumphs have a little felt pad to lubricate the lobes ….be very careful not to over lube that.( and the place you mention) .. any excess soon finds it’s way to the contact breaker causing misfire or total break down….This can be very mystifying on a wet cold night in the middle of nowhere . I agree with what you are saying about electronic ignition… also overrides quite a few of the other problems caused wear of the distributor shaft bushes etc.
I'm familiar with that felt pad, and you're definitely right about not overdoing it! A little lube goes a long way with these parts.
you will always have battery voltage at the coil negative terminal if you have the coil negative disconnected, whether you have a ballast resistor or not since the circuit isn't complete and loaded.
Good call. Thank you!
Is it possible to correct this in yt afterwards?
I don't have a timing light so this was really helpful and gave me a really good starting point, thank you!
Glad to help! You should invest in a timing light though. Without one, you'll never be able to tell if your advance is working properly. That's the most common cause of trouble in the distributor other than issues with points, and it can make tuning your car impossible. I'll post a video at some point showing how to use one.
Actually my TR6 motor has stopped working. Thanks to your step by step explanation the " tragedy" turned out to an technical problem, maybe resovakble for an amateur like me. Thank you.
You're welcome! Glad I could help!
@@midwestmotoring Problem solved! It was the cable broken inside the distributor from the + connector on the outside to the point breaker. Broken, but hold together with the still original fabric insulation.
Thank you for these videos! They are excellent.
I'm glad they're helpful. It's hard to follow advice in forums sometimes--especially with a dozen people chiming in at the same time. I figured a video would be more useful to share when questions come up!
@@midwestmotoringYep, I made a 5 minute video on adjusting a Honda 90 carb as a result of a forum discussion a few years ago. It now has 57k views!
@@pburress06 I've never owned a Honda or anything with a similar carb, but I just watched your video. Very well done! It's exactly what I would want to see if I needed it.
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@Baylor Jacob instablaster :)
Matt, Your videos are the best I have seen on TR6 and I have had mine since 1974. I would find it very helpful to see how to correctly install the Distributor. I would also like to see you install the new plug wires.
Hi Wayne! Thanks for the compliment! I'll make sure to add that to the list for future videos. In the meantime though... installing the distributor is easy--assuming your drive gear is in correctly. I'll address that in the video, but your shop manual will outline the procedure (just follow it one step at a time). After that, simply drop the distributor in the hole and tighten the nut once it's in place. You'll want to static time it as in the Part II video. For the plug wires, you need to know when cylinder 1 is about to fire. With the valve cover off, rotate the engine and watch for the intake valve on the front cylinder to open and close. Once closed, the piston will compress the fuel that was just drawn in, so once you get to top dead center on the timing mark (aka 0 degrees advanced or retarded) you know that the distributor is pointing directly at cylinder #1. It spins counter clockwise, so just add the other wires in order. 1,5,3,6,2,4 is the correct order for a TR6. I should have filmed some of this stuff already since I did have to pull out the drive gear and adjust the distributor, but I forgot! Don't worry--it'll definitely come up again. Anyway, thanks again!
Wayne, I forgot to reach out to you, but one of the videos I've added called "Demystifying the Distributor" shows how it's installed. Let me know if you'd like me to go more in depth.
@@midwestmotoring Matt, this is another great video. You are setting the standard for TR6 DIY. The part of Distributor installation that I was looking for is the alignment of the Distributor Drive Gear and insertion of the Distributor. I think that a shop that worked on my TR6 inserted the Drive Gear incorrectly. The Ottawa Valley Triumph Club has a good written direction for the process but I am missing that "Aha" moment that would make me confident to do it. Their instructions are at: www.ovtc.net/distributor-replacement.html
@@waynebryson1091 It's actually quite easy provided you have a tool to get the distributor drive gear out and a way to turn the oil pump drive shaft. A set of internal snap ring pliers works GREAT to get the gear out very easily, and a wooden dowel with a slot cut in (like the bottom of the distributor drive gear) will cost only a few dollars and will work to turn the oil pump shaft. The hardest part isn't lining up the drive gear, but lining up the drive gear onto the oil pump. It seems like every time I drop it in place it sits on top of the oil pump drive shaft. It's easy to tell when that happens, of course, since you won't be able to get the distributor housing bolted back down. In short, it's a time consuming process of trial and error, but it's very difficult to break something. The other bit that people tend to miss is the end float on the drive gear. That's a step where you're supposed to put washers on top of the drive gear, measure with a feeler gauge, then remove the washers and put in thicker or thinner gaskets. Again, kind of finicky, but not difficult to do. The good news is that if you're using the same gear and you know it was measured the last time then it's probably fine.
Very good tutorial. Thank you.
Thank you! These are actually fun to make. I'll call myself successful if we keep a few more cars on the road from people watching the videos!
@@midwestmotoring I’ve just bought a 1974 rusty old TR6 and am spending quite a bit of time on TH-cam trying to learn from videos like yours. I’m from a vintage that actually grew up with points and condensers but it’s been a long time and whilst one remembers the basics you’ve given a great freshen up course there. It’s a great facility to have and I appreciate it, I’m sure we all do.
Hi Matt, big fan of your videos. I'm trying to get my dad's 76 TR6 going again and I've noticed all the wires going into and within the distributor are worn out and ratty. Do you have any advice or recommendations on what I should do about replacing those? Thanks!
Depends on which wires. From the factory there would only be 1 unless you mean the spark plug wires. If you have an electronic ignition installed, then there could be more wires, but short of buying a new ignition the only way to fix old wires is to cut and replace.
Great vids!
Thank you! I'm happy they help.
Which screw do you loosen in order to be able to rotate the distributor? My workshop manual refers to a clamping bolt but it's not in their drawing. Also great videos btw very helpful I have a '74 and the classic car garages charge so much that i have to do more of this myself!
It's #86 in this diagram: mossmotors.com/trs-060-ignition
The distributor is held in place with a simple clamp. The bolt goes through it and tightens it in place. Should be a 7/16 wrench.
Suggest a new distributor after 25 years
Definitely not! Collosal waste of money. Distributors are very reliable if you just maintain them and half the new ones are garbage.
Very helpful for my 73 2000
Glad it helped! There's another video for "Demystifying the Distributor" that might be even better, and includes some information on how to install the distributor as well.
You didn't explain the wiring connections - this is a major item to check, because the system must be wired correctly to work.
Unfortunately the wiring changes depending on the car. This video was intended to be informational and not a tutorial to diagnose faults. To help with that, the wiring diagram for your car will show you the correct wiring in your specific case. You should never perform any serious maintenance without owning an appropriate shop manual, but that said I do look up information and often answer questions for our midwest motoring members. Thanks for the comment!
Can you post a video on how to use a timing light and explaining how advance timing works?
A few of the videos show the procedure, but it's really difficult to show the timing light and how to use it. The trouble is the frame rate of the camera, which is maybe 30 frames per second. That makes it hard to show the flash from a timing light, which would appear to be inconsistent and not as meaningful as in real life. There is a video related to the distributor though, which may be helpful!
Here: this might help with an explanation of advance timing.
th-cam.com/video/-j_4OPEd4Xg/w-d-xo.html
@@midwestmotoringthanks for that! Yea it’s was very informative. I’m just kinda stuck. I sent my distributor out to advance to get rebuilt. Got it back and he said to put it between 14-17 BTDC. Putting it at 14, my car runs fine I have standard points. I have an electronic timing gun that you can set the advance on it with a dial. I’ve been told the MAX amount of advance you want on a TR6 is a range of 28-32. I set the gun to 30 and point it at the pulley but it doesn’t line up with TDC. Clicking up on the timing gun eventually I get to 46 and it lines up with the TDC mark. What gives?
You're overthinking it. The distributor is only capable of a certain amount of advance, so I doubt it's getting to 46. By the way that max advance is also at high RPM, such as 4000 rpm, so if youre trying to set the timing that far at idle thats the wrong idea. If it runs well at 14 at idle, just bolt it down and go for a drive. If there's no pinging and it runs well you're good to go!
@@midwestmotoring yea that’s the thing I’m getting back fire through the carbs and poor acceleration under load. It’s strange I’ve tried going back and forth on this timing but can’t seem to get it right. I’m thinking of installing a Petrnoix electric ignition and just doing away with the points
great stuff thankyou...
It's not perfect, but if it gets a car running better I'll keep doing this!
@@midwestmotoring Im just finishing a complete restoration on my 69... original owner ... and unfortunately in all the moves and such my distributor has vanished....scrambling for a replacement ...your very good at making it clear ...
thanks Matt, very helpful even for my TR250 :-)
Glad to be of service. It's largely the same under the hood, although you'll have both a vacuum advance and a retard capsule... and also a switch under the carbs that shuts off vacuum to the retard capsule when not at idle. That switch always seems to break.... Anyway, thank you!
Thanks for this video. I have a '76 MG with a 1.5. The wiring is a mess. the previous owner bypassed the wiring and hooked the 12v (marked) coil to the battery. There is a ballast resistor block on the fender well, that appears to be part of the original wiring. I got the car started for a short bit (using the jumpered 12v coil that got pretty hot) but have now lost spark to my points. Did I need to have a 6v coil? Think I burned up my points (or coil)? I'm a Chevy guy and a bit out of my comfort zone. Thanks.
The 76 is most likely a ballasted system, but you can confirm it at the coil with a volt meter. I don't recall if it's this video or one of the tune up ones where I describe how to go about that. The coil getting hot could be down to too the wrong amount of charging time, so the points being improperly set can affect that. Also check your plug gaps. Should be 25 thou if I remember correctly, but don't quote me on that.
With everything being equal, a 12v coil in a car that needs a 6v coil will have insufficient voltage at the plugs and will have a weak spark.
Hi so what are your next moves before you start it up .Put a little marvel mystery oil in the cylinders and lets see the start up nice vids.
At the risk of spoiler alerts... all is not well with the distributor, but the trouble didn't show up until after I got the engine started and put a timing light on it. I have a video of the maiden drive in my GT6 on the channel, but don't worry--there will be some TR6 footage as well. Just waiting for better microphones to help with the wind noise!
If the vacuum advance housing is cracked would that affect the way the distributor works? Would it cause the car not to start?
Yes, it could, but only if the crack is actually leaking. If it's just on the surface and doesn't go all the way through it shouldn't be a problem. The only way to tell would be to put a vacuum gauge on and see if you've got a leak. That said, it isn't likely it would prevent the car from starting altogether since the timing should be close. More likely you have worn points or a fuel delivery problem... unless the timing was that far off to begin with.
@@midwestmotoring Thanks, turned out it was the fuel pump, however it's leaking on the outlet side, I understand it has something to do with the compression fittings on the line, and the depth the nut goes into the new pump. Any ideas BTW I finally figured out my starting issue, I broke a rotor button by not sating ot properly, and the tiny clip came off and got between the magnet on the Petronix Ign. Starts great now. Also I fgured out what you meant by grinding the 1/2 wrench to remove the carbs. Genius, saved me an hour or so when i put my rebuilt carbs back on.
@@trrobbins4518 I've broken a rotor button before. Mine was bad enough that the rotor actually came apart. I put the rivet back in and magically was able to get home by wrapping a piece of tape around the non-contact parts of it! Anyway, the fuel pump.... I THINK that the issue is that the old compression fittings were wider than pretty much any new one. They don't compress enough, and if you could just get it to go in a little deeper it'd work great.
I don't officially recommend this, but I got a file (make sure you clean out the fuel pump after since by definition you're adding metal shavings all over the place) and removed material from the fuel pump so that the hole wasn't as deep, if you can picture that. I was fairly worried I'd destroy the fuel pump, but figured they're like $35 so not a big risk. Anyway, it worked and I haven't had to look back.
Very pleased to hear the 1/2 inch wrench helped! When you have extras like I do, sacrificing a cheap made-in-China one is a no-brainer.
Matt, how much oil for the distributor? Just drip it over the screw head?
Hi George, I don't remember off hand whether you need to take the screw out or not but I think you might have to. Just a few drops of 3-in-1 oil should do the trick every oil change or so. Hope that helps!
Why is half the audio missing?
It's not quite half... but it's because I had the radio playing in the background. TH-cam apparently cut out the audio because I don't own the rights to a number of the songs. It's annoying, but I don't believe anything important was said.
What oil should be used for the distributor?
Engine oil. I keep an oil can around the garage with 30w oil in it, but you can use the same 20w50 from the engine and it'll work fine.
@@midwestmotoring thanks, I'm new to the TR6 and am by no means a mechanic, it's actually the first time I've come into contact (haha get it?) with a distributor.
I've checked again and found out that I've got a Delco distributor and the insides looks completely different. How do you adjust the points or do you even adjust points on those? I can't really find much info even the Haynes manual only seems to cover your distributor.
@@Haenki Haha... contact... I see what you did there. Anyway, a couple thoughts. First off, the Delco unit in Triumphs should have the same points gap. (0.015in). There should be a screw to loosen the points, and some way to move it back and forth once loose. Turn the engine so the points are open (you can put the car in gear and rock it until the engine moves--that's what I do), then adjust until you get the gap you want, and tighten the points back down.
Second is that the reason you can't find information on a TR6 having a Delco unit is because I don't think the TR6 ever had a Delco unit. Some other Triumphs did though... check the engine number stamped into the top of your block (find the fuel pump, then move up to where the block meets the head--that's about where the number will be stamped). I have a feeling you might have a GT6 engine--those used Delco distributors, and are visibly the same since they're the same block. Let me know what the engine number is and I can help you. The first couple letters are the important part.
@@midwestmotoring just too clarify, my car is a PI so as far as I know it can't be a GT6 engine, what I've gathered from Facebook pages is that the later TR6s had Delco, mine is the 5th last car built in 74.
So I've been doing some research as it's a quiet day at the office, it seems to be a Delco D200 powerspark so completely different. Which brings me back to my question of what sort of maintenance it needs.
Got it. PI may be different. D200 was used on the GT6s though as well. In any case, the maintenance is the same. Points need to be set, advance needs to be checked, etc. It's all independent of the fuel delivery. The screw to loosen the points may be in a different spot is all, but the procedure is identical.
think i'll stay with an electronic distributor
A great option. Different set of problems, but they should be good until they get old. You just need to make sure the advance curve is correct for the engine.
Put a Pertronix in there and never have to touch it again. You can spend the time working on something else or better yet, driving!
Actually, that's a hugely misunderstood point. As an aside, I don't actually like Pertronix in TR6s since they seem to have a high failure rate compared with other cars they fit into. I prefer the XR700 or XR3000 systems with an external box. Anyway getting back to the point; regardless of what you use, the only thing electronic ignitions will do is to replace the triggering done by the points and condensor. They have nothing to do with the advance/retard mechanism, which is controlled by weights, springs, RPM and vacuum. Pertronix will not fix sticking weights. So it still pays to understand the distributor to have the car run properly, as the maintenance still needs to be done.