The crown on the picture 6:31 IS actually the Hungarian Holy Crown (Sacra Corona), the owner of the country. Whoever is crowned with THAT sacred relic is "de facto" the Hungarian king, ruling IN THE NAME of the Holy Crown. Also, the crown was sacrally given to the Holy Mother, Maria, who is the ethernal queen of the Hungarian Kingdom (Sacra Regina).
As a native Hungarian history lover I think that the mainstream history education is a little bit off still to this day with that topic, but this interpretation is way off. Habsburg historians were the ones who distorted 8-9th century Hungarians pov. In reality ancestors of Hungarians found their new homeland because they were hired to fight in the Frankish civil wars as mercenaries while living in modern day South Ukraine. Hungarian army were THE Real Madrid of armies in that time period. But the part modern historians get wrong is that there were no central power structure. Because of their far superior horses and tactics even a smaller Hungarian army could have made a huge difference. So it was cca. 10 tribes who were "independent" enough to field a smaller army. Territorial disputes were settled in the battle of Pozsony. After that there were no armies in Germany brave enough to challenge Hungarian soil for 150 years. On the other hand there were no intention of conquest on the Hungarian part either, because after settling there was no central power as we know central power in other European feudal communities of that time. There was a chief among chiefs, but the 10 stronger tribes remained in control of their business. At Lech Field 2 armies out of the 10 were present. There is a completely false narrative of Hungarians stopping marauding german lands because of the disaster at Lech field... BS! It was marauding indeed on the Hungarian part, but a professional one at that ordered and paid for by East Frankish lords. The sole reason of Otto being Emperor over Berengar is the fighting skill of Hungarian mercenary bands. Lech field was arranged like that. The Hungarian armies were called there to help only to find itself in a malicious trap. Hungarians stopped participating in german internal affairs because the "customers" became highly unreliable, IMO that is much closer to what happened IRL.
@@SSLaziale In my opinion, there is no reason to make the whole thing into an argument between "kuruc" (anti-Habsburg) and "labanc" (pro-Habsburg) historians. I would also argue that the Battle of Lechfeld was significant. The Hungarian military nobility suffered losses and the Hungarian raids were increasingly called into question. In this case, it probably had also nothing to do with a "client". The supporters of Otto and Liudolf accused each other of calling on the Hungarians for help, but there is no evidence that this was actually the case. The Hungarian invasion could just as well (or in my opinion even more likely) have been an independent action to exploit the weakness of the East Frankish Empire. (Abyss)
Ive always thought about that if his black army never disbanded and his heirs could continue to grow the strength of the army also not losing all the lands in Austria and Bohemia these could have made such a difference I honestly the Ottomans would have probably been crushed and lets also not forget about his tactics and strategys that his heirs could further develop
@@ArthurMorgan-nf7uv He should have ally with Austria against the Ottomans instead of attacking Vienna and angering most of the HRE. As a Hungarian i never understood why people today like him. He pretty much destroyed independent Hungary down the road with this foolish move. When the Ottomans attacked the country yet again 36 years after the death of Matthias Austria and the HRE was like good luck bro you are on your own. And when Austria had managed to expel the Ottomans from Hungary they gladly took over with direct rule.
Én még a címnél tartok de _már_ nem tetszik. Majd később ha lesz több időm végignézem a videóját, de ha már a címben is ekkora ordasat hazudik valaki, mi várható később?
short answer: nothing... long answer: Hungary was embroiled in a 1 and a half century long feudal civil war by that point between the Pro-habsburg and pro-Jagello/Polish nobles respectively, and the Battle of Mohacs was nothing more than the moment when Hungary managed to finally tear itself apart completely... Which became rather aparant if you look at what happened just after the battle (half of the nobility crowned the Habsburg, while the other half immediatly crowned a prominent hungarian noble and started to fight against eachother while the Ottomans just marched into the heart of the country basically unopposed). Basically, you need to solve the civil war before expecting anything to change significantly, NOT the battle itself (and if you manage to fix the problem the battle is also likely be won already). And no, i dont think the Hunyadi's are the solution, Mathias's reign in particular only fueled the fire of feudal civil war only, since he ruled the country as a proto-absolute monarch (something which the hungarian nobility was chronically allergic to back then AND during the entir Habsburg reign), a successful establishment of the Hunyadi dynasty would have only ensure a EVEN BIGGER disaster down the line.
Suleiman would have come next year with another army. Like one of the commenter said you need to fix hungary internal problem. Ottoman at the time was the apax. They could send multiple armies even if hungary repels them
@gachibass3639 they were attacking serbian, bosnian and Albanian lands. Also fighting against Venice and genoa. In the east the aq qoyunlu and the safavid were keep threatening the ottoman anatolian lands. By thr end of 16th century ottoman were sending forces to Brunei to fight of the Spanish armies in Philippines. Hungary were outmatched.
@@gachibass3639 Hungary and the Ottomans had a peace treaty, which Mathias Hunyadi "agressive negotiated" out of the Ottomans... basically, we (Hungary) stopped attacking them in Bosnia and Serbia any time they had a propblem somewhere else and give tribute (which was only been a symbolic amount, so the Sultan didnt lose face in the islamic world for dealing with "heathens" like equals) and in exchange the Ottomans left us alone too. Part of the reason why the Battle of Mohacs even happened is, because the peace treaty was not renewed by Hungary.(mostly, because the nobility and the king was more bussy fighting eachother instead of dealing with foreign policy... which is the most Hungarian thing to ever happen in our history). Mind you, that treaty was renewed multipel times before (mostly when a new ruler came to power in either side), and both Hungary and the Ottomans benefited from continuing it, for the Ottomans it allowed them to focus on the Arab world and Balkan expansion without having Hungary to worry about (which was a huge roadblock in Ottoman expansion for a hundred years by that point, they expanded, dont getm e wrong, but at a snail's phase, because Hungary ALWAYS intervened into whatever the Ottomans are doing and constantly had to fight major battles for any small gain). And obviously, it was beneficial to us too, since... well, like i said, we were in the middle of a feudal civil war at the time. So, it was a win-win for both sides.
Liudolf and Conrad indeed invited the Hungarians, it was not just a random raid but a campaign with the goal of supporting the rebels. It just so happened that the rebels changed their mind by the time the main army arrived, and as a result said rebels betrayed their allies and marched on them with their former enemies at their side. :)
What if the Matthias Corvinus never tried to maintain a seperate Hungary, instead instantly swearing loyalty to the habsburgs, and the kingdom became a part of the Habsburg realm fully all at one point?
Idea: what if the hundred years war ended in a stalemate? England doesn't take over france, but france never pushes england off the continent completely.
Both of them remain stuck as enenies. The English and Habsburgs become allies earlier and there's even a posibility of the English becoming a Habsburg monarchy and fully encircling France.
@@weirdguylol Probably. The House of Anjou, which ruled Hungary for a time, was related to the House of Valois, both being cadet branches of the Capetian Dynasty. The French House of Valois, if they were to be surrounded on all sides, would definitely wish to cement an alliance with the House of Anjou. This would also mean that the Ottomans, Hungarians and French would probably form an earlier coalition (IOTL France formed an alliance with the Ottomans in the mid 1500s and Hungary was under Ottoman control) and that the Ottomans wouldn't expand into Central Europe since it would be trading there instead and would focus instead in the south and east. Without such expansion Varna doesn't happen, which means the King of Poland doesn't pass which also means that Poland remains stable as well.
God all of that is such a cool concept of the earl 1500s being the Tudor Habsburg alliance against the Valois and Anjou along with ottomans, it is such a cool concept but probably would have resulted in huge amount of bloodshed
@@bigz4302 Took a few more centuries for the christian kingdoms to force that on the norseman. There would be time enough to adapt. Also the mongols still come.
@kanadashyuugo873 the Norse kingdoms eventually centralized, but they didn't face the same pressures that the Hungarians would in this scenario, but that's just a simple geography thing
I think actually, nothing. Before that, they had already won about 30 similar battles throughout Western Europe. At most, the Hungarians' approach the Papacy and the Germans, Italians would have begun a couple of decades later.
I was thinking the same. We won the Battle of Pressburg, which is at least as significant as this battle, and all that happened was that the Germans didn't attack us for decades.
Thank you for this video! I'm Hungarian and we didn't learned this much about the battle of Lechfeld (or as we call it the battle of Augsburg). We only learned that we lost because the river Lech floaded and the terrain was muddy. I always found this explanation weird. I mean this is a valid explanation for why we lost that particular battle but if this was because of some unfortunate weather, then why did the pillaging campaigns stop entirely? The way you presented it here makes much more sense.
The Hungarians conquered a kind of power vacuum in the Carpathian Basin. If no other power had emerged there, the west would probably be East Frankish/German influenced and the east Bulgarian. Maybe Moravia would survive longer.
Those pillaging raids were for the reason to get back Attila's treasures that the Franks and others pillaged from the Carpathian basin and surrounding areas, so it was really taking back treasures.
Hol keresték Attila kincseit? A parasztok ágyai alatt? Csak mert pont a várakat nem támadták, ahol azokat a "kincseket" tartani lenne szokás. Egyszerű fosztogató hadjáratok voltak, minden sztyeppi nép csinálta és a vikingek is nyugaton.
@@Wendeta-hq2cpi actually have seen the west and east francia flags a while ago online they are just made up ones to fill the vacant spot of there being no official flag and I have yet to find an actual source for it being used although the flower looking thing is the charlemagne seal iirc
@@epiccrusadr8583 Fleur de lis. That's the flower. Also yeah. I have seen the Black and Yellow flag shown in the video for east Francia, but the black and red one I haven't. Closest thing I saw was a red field with multiple Fleur de lis to represent West Francia. No black.
There may be two paths when it comes to the mongol invasions to the Holy hungarian Empire. They are either too busy in Europe or conflicted to fight their brothers from the stepp or wage a holy war(s) against the far closer mongol empire who may be right on the border in this timeline. But like he said. This timeline is so messed up that it's impossible to obey realism or actual possibilities in a timeline as altered as this one. Back then, the death of a monarch could define the fate of entire empires much like the mongols or burgundian kingdom.
Magyars and Mongols were as much brothers as Persians and Arabs were. Different origin and language, similar lifestyle (even lifestyle is totally different at the time of the Mongol invasions of Hungary). Stop lumping every steppe - originated people together like they were a monolith.
Alternative History Ideas: What if the British America's collapsed in the 1670s. England loses the King Philips War, Bacon's Rebellion, The Sasquehannock War, and the Anglo-Dutch War, having it so a lot of there lands would become independent or conquered by others. What if Georgia kept there ban on slavery. The House of Commons legislation that prohibed slavery never gets overturned meaning the colony of Georgy never adopts slavery.
I think in such a scenario, they’d be more connected with the eastern world and less with the west, resulting in more hostility with the then-Catholic Germans similar to the Teutonic order vs Novgorod but more common.
They didn't have a choice. The Austro-Hungarian compromise was de-facto independence and the Hungarians knew that if they tried to pull another 1848 they might fail.
@@TheWatcher-z2y They could have tried to double down, yeah. They probably would have enlisted the help of Serbs, Slovaks and Romanians to do it and in doing so a Slovak Duchy or Grand Principality would have formed, while the Grand Principality of Transilvania would have grown to the Tisza. The Serbian Voievodship would have also become fully independent of Hungary.
By the way where do we submit stories. I had a scenario where a Kaifeng Jewish merchant married a Korean princess, they temporarily fled to Kaifeng where she converted and went back to Korea, and they brought a rabbi and beit din to Korea, and got formally married in a newly built synagogue.
@@epiccrusadr8583 in the scenario Woa brings his mom and grandma, but his grandma accidentally starts a big palace fire, and Mi ends up being the successor, and there was a growth in Korean Jews especially in the north. In the scenario 700,000 went to Israel, resettled in the West Bank, and Israel has a Korean female prime minister in the scenario. Where do I submit alternate histories.
The Magyar tribe invaders were not very numerous. If it were not for the fact that they were forced to settle in Pannonia, they would probably have ended up like the Huns, i.e. completely lost and the remnants assimilated by the local population. Or they could simply go elsewhere and then disappear or settle there. Even in the territory of today's Hungary, they were a minority. And genetically, today's Hungarians have the absolute majority of ancestors identical to the surrounding nations (slavic, germanic, celtic and romanic origin).
English speakers using Magyar as if it was something different from Hungarian is misleading. That is how we call ourselves. However you cannot pronounce gy, so just stick to the name you gave us, Hungarian.
Yes, you're right. It's actually my fault. I don't know why, but in German historical literature the term "Magyaren" is often used for the pagan Hungarians and that's how the term found its way into the video. (Abyss)
@@anotherhistoryenthusiast5874 Oké 1. több mint 1000 év eltelt nem is kell mondanom hogy mennyire retardált amit mondtál. 2. Itt a konkrét bizonyíték, hogy igen is van rokonság a magyarok és hunok között doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/id/eprint/3794/1/Neparaczki_PhD.pdf . Ez a disszertáció konkrétan leírja hogy egy DNS teszt alapján 41,5% ázsiai hun az összetétele 10. századi honfoglaló magyaroknak. Szóval kérlek ne legyél retardált és gondolkodj legalább 2 percet mielőtt kommentelsz valamit.
@@anotherhistoryenthusiast5874 Oké 1. több mint 1000 év eltelt nem is kell mondanom hogy mennyire r-taldált amit mondtál. 2. Itt a konkrét bizonyíték, hogy igen is van rokonság a magyarok és hunok között doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/id/eprint/3794/1/Neparaczki_PhD.pdf . Ez a disszertáció konkrétan leírja hogy egy DNS teszt alapján 41,5% ázsiai hun az összetétele 10. századi honfoglaló magyaroknak. Szóval kérlek ne legyél idióta és gondolkodj legalább 2 percet mielőtt kommentelsz valamit.
@@anotherhistoryenthusiast5874 Oké 1. több mint 1000 év eltelt nem is kell mondanom hogy mekkora faszság amit mondtál. 2. Itt a konkrét bizonyíték, hogy igen is van rokonság a magyarok és hunok között doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/id/eprint/3794/1/Neparaczki_PhD.pdf . Ez a disszertáció konkrétan leírja hogy egy DNS teszt alapján 41,5% ázsiai hun az összetétele 10. századi honfoglaló magyaroknak. Szóval kérlek ne legyél idióta és gondolkodj legalább 2 percet mielőtt kommentelsz valamit.
@@anotherhistoryenthusiast5874 Oké 1. több mint 1000 év eltelt nem is kell mondanom hogy mennyire hülyeség, amit mondtál. 2. Itt a konkrét bizonyíték, hogy igen is van rokonság a magyarok és hunok között doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/id/eprint/3794/1/Neparaczki_PhD.pdf . Ez a disszertáció konkrétan leírja hogy egy DNS teszt alapján 41,5% ázsiai hun az összetétele 10. századi honfoglaló magyaroknak. Szóval kérlek gondolkodj legalább 2 percet mielőtt kommentelsz valamit.
@@mappingshaman5280 I mean if you go from west to east it would be closer. Persia could establish a base in Ceylon, reach Indonesia, then move further to reach Hawaii and then the Americas.
Hi! No matter, they won or loose the battle. The history wont change at that point. There were a union of tribes that time. And only Árpád was elected for main chieftain by the time conquesting Pannonia. Or taken back, call it whatever You want( 865 Avar khaganate over, 896 Hungarians come. Usual steppe heritage, one tribe lost its influence other thook that. Territories, nations same, main tribe changes. Just compare the map of 12000BC ice age terrain map, steppe/wooded steppe regions & the huns, mongols, turks territories. Its the same. Horse nomad culture lived there always.) But after, everyone took their own business. Geza tried to centralize the power, and make a king from his son Vajk, later st. Stephen the 1st. So there were a civil wars in Hungary for dominations. Stephen called germans for help to conquer the throne. Thats why he had german longsford instead of hungarian sabre and his wife was bavarian Giselle.(fun fact: The bavarians call hungarians 1st, to get kill their rivals. that called Eu now the Hungarian raids. The comflict started, when 904 bavarians invited one of the main dual leaders to celebrate their alliance and killed him at the table. "Red Weddigs" always took revenge, as we know from GoT. Thats why hungarians start attack german territories. Bc they wanted to destroy the hungarians after they did they job. :) ) So till st. Ladislaus the 1st there were inner comflicts between the hungarian leaders. He could stabilize/centralize the country into a feudal kingdom between 1077-1095. Only after that is relevant "what if". Most important to won the battle of Muhi at 1241 vs tatars(mongols). There also were conflict between hungarian leaders. The main dukes wanted defeated the king for a revenge or only for gain their own pwr. The cost was too much, cca 90% of the inhabitants were killed or enslaved. Ethnical groups were changed forever, lead to Trianon and much more. But there's no sense for what if? Bc we cant imagine ppl that time. Nationality was inwneted at 19th century(mainly against Hungarians who wantend to be independent from Autria. New france and hungary would be democracy. So they wanted denolish feudalism, thats why all the kings and cars untided against them. Kossuth hepled to write the foundation of Us. And also many hussars fought theire as admirals at independece wars. ;) ). At that time werent any countries or nations, only lands and wealths. Ppl indentified themselfs very different as now. We cant imagine. And about the times before Medival ages we had deffinetly no clue, how indentified themself and how thought a person, a family, a tribe, a "nation". So we dont know, how would they act, when "what if".
The teritories in light blue are the duchy of Severin , Voivodship of Kiev and walachia an empire crated by roumanian voivod Vladimir Yelow armour(980-1014) conquered Kievan Rus from the vikings and personaly killed the last viking ruler using a masive cavalery charge in 988 , from then onwards knows as Vladimir the great and saint converts ukraine to christianity .
Christianity was only taken up as the country's religion after the Hungarian state was founded by the first king of Hungary St Stephen. Under his reign the previous folk religion was pretty much completely wiped out.
Árpád was not yet a king, and Géza wasn't Grand Duke. They were both grand chiefs, of a different time. The The first king was Saint Stephen, who was crowned at 20th of August AD 1000. Basically under his rule Hungary officially became a Christian European Kingdom, however feudalism was in it's early childhood state this time. For example even in the time of Kálmán (1100's) Hungarian knights still didn't adapted western heavy lancer tactics, and in the time of Béla the fourth (1240's) bow and arrow were still named as part of the equipment of Hungarian knights.
Hungarian nobility had already adopted Western heavy lancer techniques by the end of the 11th century. For example lance charges were used against the Pechenegs in the battle of Cserhalom succesfully in 1068. After the feudalisation the roles in the military changed. Nobles became heavy cavalry while commoners became infantry and light cavalry, including horse archers. Horse archers did not fully disappear, but they became just one part of the army. The nobles ("knights") stopped using bow and arrow as their primerary weapon. There were knights and horse archers in the same armies.
@@anotherhistoryenthusiast5874 That is partly true. Hungary was a multi-nation country back in the 1000's too. The only difference is, those nations are fully merged into one identity by the time, and also more and more came and merged into the whole hungarian nation (such as Kun (Cummans), Jász, Hajdú, Tót and so on. In the 1000's the first classic western knight warfare vassals were the Hont-Pázmány clan (it's nemzetség in hungarian, I couldn't find better translation to it). But even if nobility started to wear chainmails (since in the 1000's we can't talk about plate armoured western gothic knights), among the hungarian knights, the bow remained in use. Even in the duties of the "várjobbágy"s there was one listed as tax paying in the form of submitting hunted animals meat.
Great video, as always! But just a small correction: Ukraine is referred to without the definite article "the". This is an old spelling standard which ceased to exist after the 1991 Independence of Ukraine. Other than that, I'm a huge fan! Love your work, and thank you for
@@chumnae5333 it doesn't really matter tbh, "Ukraine" translates literally from Russian and Ukrainian to mean "borderland." So the definite article here is just the difference between saying "borderland" or "THE borderland."
@ no it doesn't, it's a myth. The root "kraina" translates in all Slavic languages into "country", while "u" is a prefix, which can indicate location. So literally "inside a country". The myth you mentioned is debunked simply because "krai" in Russian doesn't necessarily mean borderland as well. "Krasnodar krai", "Perm krai", "krayevedenie" which means "knowledge of region".
@@chumnae5333 That's an ahistorical neulogism. Old Church Slavonic clearly uses the word Krai to mean "Edge, shore" which itself comes from proto-slavic krajь "edge" which itself comes from proto-indo-european krei "to cut". The use as "country" is a modern neulogism. Please be careful of spreading incorrect info.
@ and Ukraine is an invention of Lenin... nowadays English standard is "Ukraine", not "the Ukraine". It's like saying "the England" because it is "THE land of Angles"
Special thanks to Abyss from the US of Z Discord for submitting this scenario!
A deserved first-place win. Nice job Abyss!
@DeanMonsieur I loved what you did with the scenario. Thanks a lot! (Abyss)
The crown on the picture 6:31 IS actually the Hungarian Holy Crown (Sacra Corona), the owner of the country. Whoever is crowned with THAT sacred relic is "de facto" the Hungarian king, ruling IN THE NAME of the Holy Crown. Also, the crown was sacrally given to the Holy Mother, Maria, who is the ethernal queen of the Hungarian Kingdom (Sacra Regina).
As a native Hungarian history lover I think that the mainstream history education is a little bit off still to this day with that topic, but this interpretation is way off.
Habsburg historians were the ones who distorted 8-9th century Hungarians pov.
In reality ancestors of Hungarians found their new homeland because they were hired to fight in the Frankish civil wars as mercenaries while living in modern day South Ukraine. Hungarian army were THE Real Madrid of armies in that time period. But the part modern historians get wrong is that there were no central power structure. Because of their far superior horses and tactics even a smaller Hungarian army could have made a huge difference. So it was cca. 10 tribes who were "independent" enough to field a smaller army.
Territorial disputes were settled in the battle of Pozsony. After that there were no armies in Germany brave enough to challenge Hungarian soil for 150 years. On the other hand there were no intention of conquest on the Hungarian part either, because after settling there was no central power as we know central power in other European feudal communities of that time. There was a chief among chiefs, but the 10 stronger tribes remained in control of their business. At Lech Field 2 armies out of the 10 were present.
There is a completely false narrative of Hungarians stopping marauding german lands because of the disaster at Lech field... BS! It was marauding indeed on the Hungarian part, but a professional one at that ordered and paid for by East Frankish lords. The sole reason of Otto being Emperor over Berengar is the fighting skill of Hungarian mercenary bands.
Lech field was arranged like that. The Hungarian armies were called there to help only to find itself in a malicious trap.
Hungarians stopped participating in german internal affairs because the "customers" became highly unreliable, IMO that is much closer to what happened IRL.
@@SSLaziale In my opinion, there is no reason to make the whole thing into an argument between "kuruc" (anti-Habsburg) and "labanc" (pro-Habsburg) historians.
I would also argue that the Battle of Lechfeld was significant. The Hungarian military nobility suffered losses and the Hungarian raids were increasingly called into question. In this case, it probably had also nothing to do with a "client". The supporters of Otto and Liudolf accused each other of calling on the Hungarians for help, but there is no evidence that this was actually the case. The Hungarian invasion could just as well (or in my opinion even more likely) have been an independent action to exploit the weakness of the East Frankish Empire. (Abyss)
What if Matthias Corvinus managed to establish a proper dynasty and the Hunyadis remained on the Hungarian throne after his death?
Matthias Corvinus crushes the ottomans with his massive Transylvania sized balls and becomes emperor of Human Kind
@@weirdguylol true origin of the God-Emperor
Ive always thought about that if his black army never disbanded and his heirs could continue to grow the strength of the army also not losing all the lands in Austria and Bohemia these could have made such a difference I honestly the Ottomans would have probably been crushed and lets also not forget about his tactics and strategys that his heirs could further develop
@@ArthurMorgan-nf7uv He should have ally with Austria against the Ottomans instead of attacking Vienna and angering most of the HRE. As a Hungarian i never understood why people today like him. He pretty much destroyed independent Hungary down the road with this foolish move. When the Ottomans attacked the country yet again 36 years after the death of Matthias Austria and the HRE was like good luck bro you are on your own. And when Austria had managed to expel the Ottomans from Hungary they gladly took over with direct rule.
@@balazssimon5738
The HRE was considered a Universal empire, so you're not far off.
i actually learn more history from alt history than actual history videos
This was a fantastic video and as a Hungarian I really enjoyed digging into this alternative history! 🇭🇺
Csak így tovább barátom!
Én még a címnél tartok de _már_ nem tetszik. Majd később ha lesz több időm végignézem a videóját, de ha már a címben is ekkora ordasat hazudik valaki, mi várható később?
What if Hungary repelled the mongol invasion?
They did…
Just the second
@@gyularacz7237 they went home after the first one too, although they inflicted huge destruction.
@@Baso-sama thats the point
They did bro.
Suggestion: What if Hungary won the battle of mohacs?
short answer: nothing...
long answer: Hungary was embroiled in a 1 and a half century long feudal civil war by that point between the Pro-habsburg and pro-Jagello/Polish nobles respectively, and the Battle of Mohacs was nothing more than the moment when Hungary managed to finally tear itself apart completely... Which became rather aparant if you look at what happened just after the battle (half of the nobility crowned the Habsburg, while the other half immediatly crowned a prominent hungarian noble and started to fight against eachother while the Ottomans just marched into the heart of the country basically unopposed).
Basically, you need to solve the civil war before expecting anything to change significantly, NOT the battle itself (and if you manage to fix the problem the battle is also likely be won already). And no, i dont think the Hunyadi's are the solution, Mathias's reign in particular only fueled the fire of feudal civil war only, since he ruled the country as a proto-absolute monarch (something which the hungarian nobility was chronically allergic to back then AND during the entir Habsburg reign), a successful establishment of the Hunyadi dynasty would have only ensure a EVEN BIGGER disaster down the line.
Suleiman would have come next year with another army. Like one of the commenter said you need to fix hungary internal problem. Ottoman at the time was the apax. They could send multiple armies even if hungary repels them
@@schneejacques3502 Why didn't the ottomans return after 1456?
@gachibass3639 they were attacking serbian, bosnian and Albanian lands. Also fighting against Venice and genoa. In the east the aq qoyunlu and the safavid were keep threatening the ottoman anatolian lands. By thr end of 16th century ottoman were sending forces to Brunei to fight of the Spanish armies in Philippines. Hungary were outmatched.
@@gachibass3639 Hungary and the Ottomans had a peace treaty, which Mathias Hunyadi "agressive negotiated" out of the Ottomans... basically, we (Hungary) stopped attacking them in Bosnia and Serbia any time they had a propblem somewhere else and give tribute (which was only been a symbolic amount, so the Sultan didnt lose face in the islamic world for dealing with "heathens" like equals) and in exchange the Ottomans left us alone too. Part of the reason why the Battle of Mohacs even happened is, because the peace treaty was not renewed by Hungary.(mostly, because the nobility and the king was more bussy fighting eachother instead of dealing with foreign policy... which is the most Hungarian thing to ever happen in our history).
Mind you, that treaty was renewed multipel times before (mostly when a new ruler came to power in either side), and both Hungary and the Ottomans benefited from continuing it, for the Ottomans it allowed them to focus on the Arab world and Balkan expansion without having Hungary to worry about (which was a huge roadblock in Ottoman expansion for a hundred years by that point, they expanded, dont getm e wrong, but at a snail's phase, because Hungary ALWAYS intervened into whatever the Ottomans are doing and constantly had to fight major battles for any small gain). And obviously, it was beneficial to us too, since... well, like i said, we were in the middle of a feudal civil war at the time. So, it was a win-win for both sides.
Liudolf and Conrad indeed invited the Hungarians, it was not just a random raid but a campaign with the goal of supporting the rebels. It just so happened that the rebels changed their mind by the time the main army arrived, and as a result said rebels betrayed their allies and marched on them with their former enemies at their side. :)
The claim that Liudolf called the Hungarians for help is already a contemporary accusation, but has not been proven to this day.
What if the Matthias Corvinus never tried to maintain a seperate Hungary, instead instantly swearing loyalty to the habsburgs, and the kingdom became a part of the Habsburg realm fully all at one point?
Idea: what if the hundred years war ended in a stalemate? England doesn't take over france, but france never pushes england off the continent completely.
Both of them remain stuck as enenies. The English and Habsburgs become allies earlier and there's even a posibility of the English becoming a Habsburg monarchy and fully encircling France.
I want to see this
@@Wendeta-hq2cp Does that mean there would be a possible French-Hungarian alliance in that AH?
@@weirdguylol
Probably. The House of Anjou, which ruled Hungary for a time, was related to the House of Valois, both being cadet branches of the Capetian Dynasty.
The French House of Valois, if they were to be surrounded on all sides, would definitely wish to cement an alliance with the House of Anjou.
This would also mean that the Ottomans, Hungarians and French would probably form an earlier coalition (IOTL France formed an alliance with the Ottomans in the mid 1500s and Hungary was under Ottoman control) and that the Ottomans wouldn't expand into Central Europe since it would be trading there instead and would focus instead in the south and east.
Without such expansion Varna doesn't happen, which means the King of Poland doesn't pass which also means that Poland remains stable as well.
God all of that is such a cool concept of the earl 1500s being the Tudor Habsburg alliance against the Valois and Anjou along with ottomans, it is such a cool concept but probably would have resulted in huge amount of bloodshed
Amazing content!
Appreciate it!
It'd also be fair to assume that constant pressure from the Christian kingdoms would force the Hungarians to centralize or die basically
@@bigz4302 Took a few more centuries for the christian kingdoms to force that on the norseman. There would be time enough to adapt. Also the mongols still come.
@kanadashyuugo873 the Norse kingdoms eventually centralized, but they didn't face the same pressures that the Hungarians would in this scenario, but that's just a simple geography thing
@@bigz4302 Norse kingdoms were much bigger than the current sweden/norway/denmark countries
This is the shit I live for
It’s going DOWN! I’m yelling TIMBER!
You just reminded my of my childhood good sir! I love that song!
@@MonsieurDean You had no right to remind me of my best memories as a child
LOVE YOUR CONTENT! Keep up the good work ❤❤❤❤
Amazing work as always ❤❤❤❤
what if everything went PERFECTLY for lithuania?
wow this is a scenario i have never seen covered but i am glad you did something unique and interesting. Please do more medieval althists
I think actually, nothing. Before that, they had already won about 30 similar battles throughout Western Europe.
At most, the Hungarians' approach the Papacy and the Germans, Italians would have begun a couple of decades later.
I was thinking the same. We won the Battle of Pressburg, which is at least as significant as this battle, and all that happened was that the Germans didn't attack us for decades.
Thank you for this video! I'm Hungarian and we didn't learned this much about the battle of Lechfeld (or as we call it the battle of Augsburg). We only learned that we lost because the river Lech floaded and the terrain was muddy. I always found this explanation weird. I mean this is a valid explanation for why we lost that particular battle but if this was because of some unfortunate weather, then why did the pillaging campaigns stop entirely? The way you presented it here makes much more sense.
Impressive, very cool, now what if the Hungarians never established themselves in the pannonian basin?
The Hungarians conquered a kind of power vacuum in the Carpathian Basin. If no other power had emerged there, the west would probably be East Frankish/German influenced and the east Bulgarian. Maybe Moravia would survive longer.
good job mr z
Those pillaging raids were for the reason to get back Attila's treasures that the Franks and others pillaged from the Carpathian basin and surrounding areas, so it was really taking back treasures.
Hol keresték Attila kincseit? A parasztok ágyai alatt? Csak mert pont a várakat nem támadták, ahol azokat a "kincseket" tartani lenne szokás.
Egyszerű fosztogató hadjáratok voltak, minden sztyeppi nép csinálta és a vikingek is nyugaton.
It would be a pretty great world.
Literally a victory has defeated them scenario.
How tf do you just pull these flags out of the abyss to use them in the thumbnails? Where do you get them?
I make em
@@DeanMonsieur
Oh okay! I was wondering why I couldn't find the flag for west Francia anywhere.
@@Wendeta-hq2cpi actually have seen the west and east francia flags a while ago online they are just made up ones to fill the vacant spot of there being no official flag and I have yet to find an actual source for it being used although the flower looking thing is the charlemagne seal iirc
@@epiccrusadr8583
Fleur de lis. That's the flower.
Also yeah. I have seen the Black and Yellow flag shown in the video for east Francia, but the black and red one I haven't.
Closest thing I saw was a red field with multiple Fleur de lis to represent West Francia. No black.
Just a suggestion, what if The Magyars never migrated to mainland Hungary
There may be two paths when it comes to the mongol invasions to the Holy hungarian Empire. They are either too busy in Europe or conflicted to fight their brothers from the stepp or wage a holy war(s) against the far closer mongol empire who may be right on the border in this timeline. But like he said. This timeline is so messed up that it's impossible to obey realism or actual possibilities in a timeline as altered as this one. Back then, the death of a monarch could define the fate of entire empires much like the mongols or burgundian kingdom.
Magyars and Mongols were as much brothers as Persians and Arabs were. Different origin and language, similar lifestyle (even lifestyle is totally different at the time of the Mongol invasions of Hungary). Stop lumping every steppe - originated people together like they were a monolith.
Alternative History Ideas:
What if the British America's collapsed in the 1670s. England loses the King Philips War, Bacon's Rebellion, The Sasquehannock War, and the Anglo-Dutch War, having it so a lot of there lands would become independent or conquered by others.
What if Georgia kept there ban on slavery. The House of Commons legislation that prohibed slavery never gets overturned meaning the colony of Georgy never adopts slavery.
I don't know but map of this Empire look like austro Hungarian Empire
It could be an odd one, but what if Turkic tribes never pushed into the Middle East but stayed in Asia and unified, focusing on India and China?
Make one where Ottokar defeats Rudolph and becomes the Holy Roman Emperor
Suggestion: What if Catherine the Greats’s Greek plan succeeded?
What if Hungry became Orthodox?
I think in such a scenario, they’d be more connected with the eastern world and less with the west, resulting in more hostility with the then-Catholic Germans similar to the Teutonic order vs Novgorod but more common.
Now i know what i'm gonna do with my timemachine.
🔥🔥🔥🔥Hungary raaaaaaghhh🇭🇺🇭🇺🇭🇺🇭🇺🇭🇺🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
What if IV. Béla defeated the Mongols at once and Hungary's population doesn't get decimated?
What if Hungary declared independance instead of joining Austria Hungary?
They didn't have a choice. The Austro-Hungarian compromise was de-facto independence and the Hungarians knew that if they tried to pull another 1848 they might fail.
@@Wendeta-hq2cp hmm
what of instead of Austria compromising with Hungary, Austria tried to wipe out Hungary entirely
@@TheWatcher-z2y
They could have tried to double down, yeah.
They probably would have enlisted the help of Serbs, Slovaks and Romanians to do it and in doing so a Slovak Duchy or Grand Principality would have formed, while the Grand Principality of Transilvania would have grown to the Tisza. The Serbian Voievodship would have also become fully independent of Hungary.
@@Wendeta-hq2cp sounds cool
@@TheWatcher-z2y
Thanks!
By the way where do we submit stories. I had a scenario where a Kaifeng Jewish merchant married a Korean princess, they temporarily fled to Kaifeng where she converted and went back to Korea, and they brought a rabbi and beit din to Korea, and got formally married in a newly built synagogue.
Influence does have a way of spreading doesn't it
@@epiccrusadr8583 in the scenario Woa brings his mom and grandma, but his grandma accidentally starts a big palace fire, and Mi ends up being the successor, and there was a growth in Korean Jews especially in the north. In the scenario 700,000 went to Israel, resettled in the West Bank, and Israel has a Korean female prime minister in the scenario. Where do I submit alternate histories.
The Magyar tribe invaders were not very numerous. If it were not for the fact that they were forced to settle in Pannonia, they would probably have ended up like the Huns, i.e. completely lost and the remnants assimilated by the local population. Or they could simply go elsewhere and then disappear or settle there. Even in the territory of today's Hungary, they were a minority. And genetically, today's Hungarians have the absolute majority of ancestors identical to the surrounding nations (slavic, germanic, celtic and romanic origin).
There were a lot of people on the americas prior to European discovery
Hungary lore urahhhhh
English speakers using Magyar as if it was something different from Hungarian is misleading.
That is how we call ourselves. However you cannot pronounce gy, so just stick to the name you gave us, Hungarian.
Yes, you're right. It's actually my fault. I don't know why, but in German historical literature the term "Magyaren" is often used for the pagan Hungarians and that's how the term found its way into the video. (Abyss)
Also, direct descendents of Attila the Hun is a proven fact.
What if the whole world united under Imperial Federation
It's not a myth that Hungarians are the descendants of the Huns
A hunok (Xiongnu) full ázsiaiak voltak. Nézz a tükörbe és mond meg mennyire hasonlítunk.
@@anotherhistoryenthusiast5874 Oké 1. több mint 1000 év eltelt nem is kell mondanom hogy mennyire retardált amit mondtál. 2. Itt a konkrét bizonyíték, hogy igen is van rokonság a magyarok és hunok között doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/id/eprint/3794/1/Neparaczki_PhD.pdf . Ez a disszertáció konkrétan leírja hogy egy DNS teszt alapján 41,5% ázsiai hun az összetétele 10. századi honfoglaló magyaroknak. Szóval kérlek ne legyél retardált és gondolkodj legalább 2 percet mielőtt kommentelsz valamit.
@@anotherhistoryenthusiast5874 Oké 1. több mint 1000 év eltelt nem is kell mondanom hogy mennyire r-taldált amit mondtál. 2. Itt a konkrét bizonyíték, hogy igen is van rokonság a magyarok és hunok között doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/id/eprint/3794/1/Neparaczki_PhD.pdf . Ez a disszertáció konkrétan leírja hogy egy DNS teszt alapján 41,5% ázsiai hun az összetétele 10. századi honfoglaló magyaroknak. Szóval kérlek ne legyél idióta és gondolkodj legalább 2 percet mielőtt kommentelsz valamit.
@@anotherhistoryenthusiast5874 Oké 1. több mint 1000 év eltelt nem is kell mondanom hogy mekkora faszság amit mondtál. 2. Itt a konkrét bizonyíték, hogy igen is van rokonság a magyarok és hunok között doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/id/eprint/3794/1/Neparaczki_PhD.pdf . Ez a disszertáció konkrétan leírja hogy egy DNS teszt alapján 41,5% ázsiai hun az összetétele 10. századi honfoglaló magyaroknak. Szóval kérlek ne legyél idióta és gondolkodj legalább 2 percet mielőtt kommentelsz valamit.
@@anotherhistoryenthusiast5874 Oké 1. több mint 1000 év eltelt nem is kell mondanom hogy mennyire hülyeség, amit mondtál. 2. Itt a konkrét bizonyíték, hogy igen is van rokonság a magyarok és hunok között doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/id/eprint/3794/1/Neparaczki_PhD.pdf . Ez a disszertáció konkrétan leírja hogy egy DNS teszt alapján 41,5% ázsiai hun az összetétele 10. századi honfoglaló magyaroknak. Szóval kérlek gondolkodj legalább 2 percet mielőtt kommentelsz valamit.
Is over Habsburg bross
What if Persia Had Discover The Americas ?
They wouldnt be able to do anything about it because they're so far away colonisation would be impossible
@@mappingshaman5280 maybe australia
@@mappingshaman5280
I mean if you go from west to east it would be closer. Persia could establish a base in Ceylon, reach Indonesia, then move further to reach Hawaii and then the Americas.
Hi! No matter, they won or loose the battle. The history wont change at that point. There were a union of tribes that time. And only Árpád was elected for main chieftain by the time conquesting Pannonia. Or taken back, call it whatever You want( 865 Avar khaganate over, 896 Hungarians come. Usual steppe heritage, one tribe lost its influence other thook that. Territories, nations same, main tribe changes. Just compare the map of 12000BC ice age terrain map, steppe/wooded steppe regions & the huns, mongols, turks territories. Its the same. Horse nomad culture lived there always.) But after, everyone took their own business. Geza tried to centralize the power, and make a king from his son Vajk, later st. Stephen the 1st. So there were a civil wars in Hungary for dominations. Stephen called germans for help to conquer the throne. Thats why he had german longsford instead of hungarian sabre and his wife was bavarian Giselle.(fun fact: The bavarians call hungarians 1st, to get kill their rivals. that called Eu now the Hungarian raids. The comflict started, when 904 bavarians invited one of the main dual leaders to celebrate their alliance and killed him at the table. "Red Weddigs" always took revenge, as we know from GoT. Thats why hungarians start attack german territories. Bc they wanted to destroy the hungarians after they did they job. :) ) So till st. Ladislaus the 1st there were inner comflicts between the hungarian leaders. He could stabilize/centralize the country into a feudal kingdom between 1077-1095. Only after that is relevant "what if". Most important to won the battle of Muhi at 1241 vs tatars(mongols). There also were conflict between hungarian leaders. The main dukes wanted defeated the king for a revenge or only for gain their own pwr. The cost was too much, cca 90% of the inhabitants were killed or enslaved. Ethnical groups were changed forever, lead to Trianon and much more. But there's no sense for what if? Bc we cant imagine ppl that time. Nationality was inwneted at 19th century(mainly against Hungarians who wantend to be independent from Autria. New france and hungary would be democracy. So they wanted denolish feudalism, thats why all the kings and cars untided against them. Kossuth hepled to write the foundation of Us. And also many hussars fought theire as admirals at independece wars. ;) ). At that time werent any countries or nations, only lands and wealths. Ppl indentified themselfs very different as now. We cant imagine. And about the times before Medival ages we had deffinetly no clue, how indentified themself and how thought a person, a family, a tribe, a "nation". So we dont know, how would they act, when "what if".
what if the battle was on of thise where no one clearly wins.
What if Ashanti Industrialized?
Hungary is bad as it is, imagine them being a global superpower💀
How has Hungary hurt you?
The teritories in light blue are the duchy of Severin , Voivodship of Kiev and walachia an empire crated by roumanian voivod Vladimir Yelow armour(980-1014) conquered Kievan Rus from the vikings and personaly killed the last viking ruler using a masive cavalery charge in 988 , from then onwards knows as Vladimir the great and saint converts ukraine to christianity .
where the hugarias christians already at this point.
Christianity was only taken up as the country's religion after the Hungarian state was founded by the first king of Hungary St Stephen. Under his reign the previous folk religion was pretty much completely wiped out.
I say we remake the Hunnic Empire
NOP
Árpád was not yet a king, and Géza wasn't Grand Duke. They were both grand chiefs, of a different time. The The first king was Saint Stephen, who was crowned at 20th of August AD 1000. Basically under his rule Hungary officially became a Christian European Kingdom, however feudalism was in it's early childhood state this time. For example even in the time of Kálmán (1100's) Hungarian knights still didn't adapted western heavy lancer tactics, and in the time of Béla the fourth (1240's) bow and arrow were still named as part of the equipment of Hungarian knights.
Hungarian nobility had already adopted Western heavy lancer techniques by the end of the 11th century. For example lance charges were used against the Pechenegs in the battle of Cserhalom succesfully in 1068.
After the feudalisation the roles in the military changed. Nobles became heavy cavalry while commoners became infantry and light cavalry, including horse archers. Horse archers did not fully disappear, but they became just one part of the army. The nobles ("knights") stopped using bow and arrow as their primerary weapon. There were knights and horse archers in the same armies.
@@anotherhistoryenthusiast5874 That is partly true. Hungary was a multi-nation country back in the 1000's too. The only difference is, those nations are fully merged into one identity by the time, and also more and more came and merged into the whole hungarian nation (such as Kun (Cummans), Jász, Hajdú, Tót and so on.
In the 1000's the first classic western knight warfare vassals were the Hont-Pázmány clan (it's nemzetség in hungarian, I couldn't find better translation to it).
But even if nobility started to wear chainmails (since in the 1000's we can't talk about plate armoured western gothic knights), among the hungarian knights, the bow remained in use.
Even in the duties of the "várjobbágy"s there was one listed as tax paying in the form of submitting hunted animals meat.
@@ZsoltSzabó-c2s Of course, every noble used bows for hunting. I was talking about primerary weapons and tactics in warfare.
That ain't hungary
That's fullgary !!!
hu a hungry hungray.. lol
When you’re very Hungary:
Great video, as always! But just a small correction: Ukraine is referred to without the definite article "the". This is an old spelling standard which ceased to exist after the 1991 Independence of Ukraine. Other than that, I'm a huge fan! Love your work, and thank you for
@@chumnae5333 it doesn't really matter tbh, "Ukraine" translates literally from Russian and Ukrainian to mean "borderland." So the definite article here is just the difference between saying "borderland" or "THE borderland."
@ no it doesn't, it's a myth. The root "kraina" translates in all Slavic languages into "country", while "u" is a prefix, which can indicate location. So literally "inside a country". The myth you mentioned is debunked simply because "krai" in Russian doesn't necessarily mean borderland as well. "Krasnodar krai", "Perm krai", "krayevedenie" which means "knowledge of region".
@@chumnae5333
That's an ahistorical neulogism. Old Church Slavonic clearly uses the word Krai to mean "Edge, shore" which itself comes from proto-slavic krajь "edge" which itself comes from proto-indo-european krei "to cut".
The use as "country" is a modern neulogism. Please be careful of spreading incorrect info.
@@chumnae5333
It is *"the ukraine",* not "Ukraine", because the latter is the invention of East Galicians during the Habsburg reign.
@ and Ukraine is an invention of Lenin... nowadays English standard is "Ukraine", not "the Ukraine". It's like saying "the England" because it is "THE land of Angles"
An Idea for a next video:
"What if the Cristeros won the Cristiada?"