Frost-free Hose Bibb? Yep, it TOTALLY ICED over!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- Is a Frost-Free hose Bibb really freeze proof? In this video I'm going to do a DEEP FREEZE on Copper, Brass, and Stainless Hose Bibbs to see how much cold they transmit to the inside of the house. The results totally shocked me. Today's video sponsored by Aquor Water Systems. FYI, the model I used in the video from Aquor is this one available from Amazon. amzn.to/2R4Ok0Q
Find their whole line up of Stainless Hose Bibbs on their website at aquorwatersyst...
Follow Matt on Instagram! / risingerbuild
or Twitter / mattrisinger
Huge thanks to our Show sponsors Polywall, Huber, Dorken Delta, Prosoco, Rockwool & Viewrail for helping to make these videos possible! These are all trusted companies that Matt has worked with for years and trusts their products in the homes he builds. We would highly encourage you to check out their websites for more info.
www.Poly-Wall.com
www.Dorken.com
www.Huberwood.com
www.Prosoco.com
www.Viewrail.com
www.Rockwool.com
After turning the water on you didn't let the air out of the pipes by running the water a little. There probably wasn't any water up in the pipes, just a trapped air bubble that is under pressure.
Yeah, you had air trapped in the lines that you didn't bleed out.
Also could have opened the water line valves behind the unit to see if the frosted area leaked before cutting the line.
I was just about to say the same thing... really needs to be redone properly!
My exact thoughts
Yup, same here. Was typing the same thing when I saw the original comment. Good experiment but may need to be redone after you bring water to the faucet before closing the header off. Don't throw the freezer away yet! 😁
Sorry Matt, like others have commented this wasn’t a good experiment. Charging the pipes with water but not releasing the air and allowing fluid to go out the spigot (as in a real world application) would be the first thing needed. Then having the pipes go through thrashing and an actual insulted wall section. Love your show, appreciate what you do but this fell far too short of a real test. Am looking forward to a redo.
This isn't a good test.
very flawed... the dry ice is expanding in the fridge pushing out the moisture of the melting ice, meaning you have to depend on the sealing of the wall to pipe and you can see in the video timelapse the vapor collecting on the pipe @ 10:41
My first question was "Why is there extra spray foam around the Aquor?" Seemed sketchy to me. The plastic bib of the Aquor gives it a chintzy look.
Agree. Normally the pipes would be contained inside the wall and the first 4-10 inches would not be exposed to ambient room temperature nor ambient moisture levels. He also didn’t evacuate all the air from the taps (at least he didn’t show it on the video) so we aren’t sure if the fixtures have water or air at the fixture valve location.
Also saudering the brass fixture increases conduction of heat. Literally why that's a screw on fixture
@@davidstocker2278, Depending on the situation, you might actually want the pipe to be more conductive due to requiring more energy removal to reduce the temperature of the larger system. I personally prefer them screwed on in most cases, but just because it has a MIP threading dose not mean it was installed incorrectly.
bleed the air out and redo test.
That laser thermometer won't read stuff like that. It's reflecting back to itself.
shawn d that’s I I said
It's not reflecting back to itself, but it does reflect heat from the room. Also, it may not have been aimed correctly as the laser is pointing higher than the sensor.
Pretty much nothing is happening behind the wall, because humidity is so low in the winter.
My infrared thermometer has a laser pointer for the user’s convenience. I’m not aware of any device that uses visible light to measure temperature.
Thermometer won’t read accurately off non-black surfaces.
I'm not sure about the middle states, but we use 12" deep frost free bibs in the north. That 4" would definitely freeze at - 30 F
Jason W we use frost free usually 10” here in Oklahoma.
we now know frozen air creates condensation! run this test again after turning on the bib to let water fill the pipes, i'm sure you'll get totally different results!! :-)
If you didn't know before now that cold temperatures create condensation you haven't been paying attention for most of your life.
@@willdwyer6782 i think you may need to let someone else edit before you post
He will also need to insulate the pipes as they leave the freezer for 8 inches to correctly simulate a proper install.
I have to agree with the other guys, air needed to be purged out of the line and constant water pressure applied to the water line. Unfortunately, I did not learn much from this test. I still love your videos!
All you guys saying it isn't want a good test/experiment are missing the point. He showcased the differences between different materials that conduct heat, that is the take away. The sweating is obvious if you think about it. Any cold surface inside your house will sweat. Cold water lines sweat inside your house can sweat. It's normal.
@@FeelingLikeThatNow I'm aware of cold pipes sweating when exposed to water air, that's a given. I thought he was showing the difference in the outside hose bibbs. His quote: Is a Frost-Free hose Bibb really freeze proof?
Matt, Electrically conductive and thermally conductive are two different things. Electrically conductive has to do with the movement of electrons along a substance. Heat energy is the kinetic motion of the atoms and molecules, with hotter substances moving around a lot more than colder substances. Thus, heat conductivity has to do with the transfer of kinetic energy from atom or molecule to atom or molecule. This is important to remember, because one of the chemical properties that help defines metals versus nonmetals on the periodic table is thermal conductivity. Most metals are poor conductors of electrons, even performing on par or worse than many nonmetals. However, all metals perform better than nonmetals as thermal conductors, since nonmetals tend to be thermal insulators. So, when you used the electrical properties of stainless steel to highlight it's thermal properties, you were comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, apples to oranges, however stainless heat transfer is dramatically slower & thus is often used as heat shields for exhaust & engine firewalls in vehicles as it does not transmit heat (molecular movement) through the metal as well. Stainless brake disks = bad idea (most all heat/ energy must be absorbed by the brakepads & calipers), stainless caliper heat shields = good idea (keeps fluid cooler in lines & hoses from baking & becoming brittle).
@@michaelamick4887 Right. But my thing was his use of electrical conductivity as a way to show thermal conductivity. It's likely to get people thinking that you can use an ohm meter to test thermal conductivity.
You are incorrect. Electrical and thermal conductivity are directly proportional to each other.
@@jasonsmall5602 you are incorrect. While useful as a rule of thumb, the assumption that electrical conductivity is proportional to thermal conductivity is not strictly true. Google a Weiderman graph and you will see that there are variations.
@@benpenkacik3883 Sure,I overstated the relationship, but it's generally true. I do recall reading an article recently where they were widely different for a material.
Sir, you may have left air in the line. It needs to be bled off and your test redone. Also, laser thermometers are not accurate at that temperature.
A few considerations regarding heat transfer...
Because nature prefers balance, the higher heat energy of the room is transferring to the interior of the freezer trying to reach equilibrium. One of the paths of transfer is through the hose bib assemblies. Assuming all three hose bib piping assemblies are equivalent (pipe, fittings, amount of water, all air purged) it is reasonable to conclude the amount of heat energy "available" to each hose bib from the piping assembly is the same. The highest thermally-conductive hose bib assembly (copper) transfers that heat energy into the freezer at the highest rate. Since all three have the same heat energy input, the copper should have the lowest temperatures since it is transferring heat away the fastest.
Your test did not bear that out. As suggested by so many others un-purged air is highly likely. Also, as suggested by so many others, the non-contact optical thermometer is giving erroneous data in these conditions.
Besides proper setup, the addition of a simple data logger and thermocouples on the interior and exterior of the freezer at each hose bib would have presented much more meaningful data. If you want to perform scientific experiments and present the results as scientific, consult with qualified professionals and actually perform a design of experiment. University of Texas at Austin has an engineering school...
The “outside of the fridge” part of those would all normally be in the insulated space of the wall cavity... NOT a warm interior space with plenty of airflow to keep them from freezing.
orcoastgreenman I agree. Those laser thermometers are very inaccurate.
Try again using pex or pvc delivery piping (how many southern homes are still using copper water pipes?) and see if the valves/etc freeze
John
great idea
Right. Without the "copper radiator" there is a lot less distance for the temperature gradient.
Matt, one reason the center bib frosted over compared to the flush mounted bib is that water is an excellent conductor of heat energy. For the flush mounted bib, the water went right into the cooler, and it was keeping that section of pipe warmer than the middle bib. In order to make frost appear on the right bib, the cooler had to chill the bib, the pipe, and water in the line, or get that section cold enough that the water would have frozen over and burst.
The middle bib had that air gap. So there is less material and heat energy to work with. This means the cooler could get that four inch section to frost over. But the frost did not appear where your pipe was filled with water. It's not likely this would have failed, but it does bring up another potential issue: Condensation and eventual mold/wood rot. This bib is giving the moisture a place to collect and then eventually lead to issues in the wall.
My thoughts from a Northern climate: Your section of pipe that was showing condensation would be on the cold side of a vapour barrier, inside insulation nearest to the outdoors. There would be very small amounts of water vapour within that space compared to your rather high humidity experiment. In a cold climate I would imagine the relative humidity of the insulated space is pretty close (or lower) than the outdoor humidity ( cold air won't hold much water vapour). In cold weather there will be very little transfer of water vapour from the outside to the warmer insulated space, so I doubt you are going to have any really comparable opportunity for condensation to happen within that assembly. This past summer I changed such a fitting in our very cold climate zone. There was no sign at all of any condensation happening from the original frost free fitting.
I also put pipe insulation on the inside before the wall, to keep it from dripping condensation when water is running during warm/hot weather.
I believe he said 67% relative humidity in that room at 68 degrees? You'd never see that in a house in the north in the winter unless you had a broken humidifier or something. You're lucky to see 30% unless you have a humidifier artificially boosting it. In commercial buildings it's even worse, at work I regularly see 15%-20% relative humidity. No way you'd see that level of condensation at normal conditions in the winter in the north unless you had an outside water leak or a broken humidifier.
I live in Northeast Arkansas and several times during the winter we get nasty dose of hose bib popping cold. So, we did not include outside hydrants when we built our home. Instead, we ran a loop of 3/4" PVC pipe around the house tucked up to the foundation. This loop feeds hydrants at the various flower beds that we water. The hydrants sit on top of galvanized pip risers. I use standard hydrants and I really like the 1/4 turn ball valve models available from Lowe's. The loop is fed through a cut off valve located the main water service line. When cold weather threatens we close the cut off valve and we don't have to worry about a busted hydrant while we are out of town. In almost 20 years we have never had a busted hydrant. Materials were cheap compared with the cost of opening up a wall to replace a split line. Assembly time was half a day at the most. We did the job before the footings were back filled and avoided the cost of digging a trench. With this system you can tap in additional hydrants when and where needed. It is important to disconnect all hoses when you winterize the loop. If Matt had attached short, water filled hoses to hydrants before they were covered I can assure you that two of them would have busted for sure.
Others have already said it, you needed to purge the air. On the copper "test" you froze air and a little water mixed, it didn't condense much on the copper pipe because the air didn't transport the cold as well.
A better test would be, after purging the air, compare a "frost proof" that has been drained and one that hasn't. The one full of water is not only at a higher risk of bursting/leaking, it will drive more cold into the house and create more surface for interior condensation.
Very interesting results! I never knew hose bibs could be so complicated haha. Thanks for sharing!
Not real-world results. I have never seen freezing like this in Michigan. The only time I have seen a frost-proof sillcock freeze and break is when a hose was left hooked up to it or if the sillcock was misinstalled and not pitched downward. If the water can't drain out, it's going to freeze and split.
I agree. My Colorado Cabin does show condensation at a couple corners of a door like this at -28F.
Hi Matt,
I live in a northern climate (Chicago) and I have a regular non- frost proof hose bib going through a basement and the original builder installed an additional shut off just inside the basement. Never had an issue with it freezing. In the fall I'll shut it off from inside and drain the water remaining in the line. Great video. I liked when you pulled out the book and got some science to back up your claims.
I am in Ottawa Canada, a very cold place. You have to have water in the pipes to properly test it as the water will conduct alot of heat.
We have the stainless steal facets that are a foot or 18 inches or two feet long. They go into heated basements, as heated basements are necessary in the cold climates.
Another thing that can be done is just having a shutoff valve with a air bleeder on it a few feet into the house, with the pipe on a downward angel from there going outside. The problem with this is the home owner must remember to use it.
Minnesota. I replace these shutoffs for different clients every spring. Or I have re-replace because "someone" replaced it at the end of the previous freeze season and didn't do something right. Typically the ones that freeze and split were not fully drained and they almost always have the feed line dropping down to the shut off. If the homeowner shuts the water off in the mechanical room and opens the valve at the hose connection for a couple minutes and then closes it there is still enough water in the line to collect over time. Essentially there is still water, but no pressure, behind the shutoff and given enough time in the deep freeze it can still cause a freeze expansion split.
It isn't uncommon for me to have to have to pull off some siding and to replace the sheathing because it is so compromised that you can't remount to it. This means that not only did water degrade the sheathing, but wet wood is now a heat sink. Rot holes also let cold air sail through.
I have even had to replace recently replaced shutoff plumbing well over a foot inside a wall where the previous repair person removed the wet insulation and never replaced it.
I have seen water pipes split where mice have crawled in between the concrete foundation and the bottom siding and burrowed through the insulation over the pipe at a right angle. Just that tiny air channel can allow the Stack Affect to pull in enough cold air to freeze the pipe and cause catastrophic damage.
BUILDING TIGHT IS BUILDING RIGHT!
Very often there is an insulated wall, but the person filling the cavity didn't cut in the pipe. They just went over it leaving a huge uninsulated cavity. I've even had to open up walls to see that insulation fail and multiple line patches because the repair people didn't recognize the root cause and just kept recreating the exact same scenario!
Wow this is the information I wanted to find out. How these things could fail. Thanks for the info! So how do you correctly install one of these
@@thomasr1051 Keep as much insulation as possible between the pipe and exterior wall. NO AIR GAPS IN THE INSULATION! Either plum the pipe to fully drain out of the spigot or drain back to the bleeder on the shut off valve. Very important is the orientation of the main line to prevent residual liquid from trickling back to the spigot after the intended drain period.
Email me if you have questions. Fobearenterprise@gmail.com
Ditto to all the comments below about leaving water pressure in the line while doing the test and about the emisivity of the infrared gun.
IMPORTANT is that the hose bib is SLOPED down to the outside tap so when the tap is closed off the water inside the hose bib can run out. This is a common freezing problem if frost free is sloped the wrong way.
love your videos
Your drawings are fantastic!
Matt, thanks for trying but it's quite obvious, you are from a warm-weather state & it will probably be getting warmer if people like you keep venting refrigerant to the atmosphere. Now let's go over some of your shortcomings in the video #1 you did not bleed the air #2 up in the North and Midwestern United States we usually use 12 inch to a minimum of 6 inch no freeze hose bibs ( some brands are better than others ) & also a bleed down shut off should proceed it . Most of us have basements, it makes winter preparation very simple.#3 most freeze ups are caused by poor homeowner preparation ( not disconnecting the hose ,ect ). #4 your work crew did nothing wrong, that is a universal hose bib it can be sweated or you can use an adapter ( the manufacturers do this on purpose so they don't have to supply twice as much inventory, it's a great idea).
Matt, love your videos, it's one of the best ways we can learn from each other, not just in our own communities but now across the world. Hopefully you learn from us as well, in your comment sections. A lot of times I learned more from the comment section on TH-cam videos then I learned from the video it's self. Keep up the good work, it's a great way to spark conversation on the subjects you so love.
I’m running a humidifier just to get to 30%. As a southerner your concept of cold and humidity is a little off.
Having been plumbing in SC for awhile, the hosebibs we have the most problems with are the typical frost-free hosebibs.
The standard ones seem to freeze just in the handle where the brass is thick so if they do split it makes a mess outside.
The frost free would split in the wall and cause damage... I think that is because they allow the cold exterior air to get inside. Also, we typically see the burst pipes in cheaply built homes that use that cardboard stuff or foam panels for sheathing and sometimes have no insulation.
The water going all the way to the exterior seems to transfer the heat better to the outside and keeps the pipe from freezing in the wall.
I think that laser on those temp guns have a offset like sights on a rifle.
Could be an inch at that close distance, meaning you could have been getting incorrect readings.
The ending was good
Didn't purge the air.
My parents are in Michigan and they had a 12" frost free bib fail. They now have there own manual shutoffs behind the bibs which are now left open all winter.
That aquor does look solid though!
I was going to say something similar. Having lived in Northern Illinois and Minneapolis, I made sure that hose bibs had a manual shut off in the basement or crawl space. And in the winter, when I closed them, I made sure the outside valve was cracked open to let water drain, or relieve pressure is it froze. This was in addition to the 'frost-free' hose bibs. Cheap insurance.
We call those "southern spigots" up north. They're useful inside or on a rain barrel that's about it 🤣
Very cool. I always enjoy the experiments you do. It is fun when the results are unexpected.
Bleed out the air and do another with a 12" vs the 4"
And you need one final with the heat wire on it that some really cold climates use.
Tne frost-free isn't installed correctly! They must be dropping to the outside! That way it drains!
If there was never a hose installed there would not be any water between the outside and the valve to drain out. In his test there was never any water in the valve just air.
@@jimmyrogers4177 In Colorado we have to disconnect the hose, yes we angle the bib to drain too.
Matt, It's not typically 50% RH inside of a home in the north when it's -20F or colder outside. In my older home no ERV or whole home humidifier it's more like 10-20% RH indoors in the winter. My older home has no insulation around the rimboard either, and I've never seen frost on the inside on the 8"-12" deep frost proof fittings. I had them apart when i moved in, but don't remember exactly how deep they are.
Edit: Also my unfinished basement is nowhere near 68F. That's my occupied firstfloor temp in the winter. the basement is close to 55F to 60F in the winter.
As others have said in MN, Wisconsin, the Dakotas, and Montana, winter household air is usually very dry. The air in the house almost always has the same absolute humidity (or dew point) as the air outside. Because in almost all cases there is circulation. (Exceptions would be a well sealed house with a positive pressure and humidity management system that keeps the humidity in the 60% or higher range, or people who have whole house humidifiers in central air systems that are not junk, which all too many are.) The Dehumidifier in our basement next to a toilet where it has access to a drain is currently reporting a 27% humidity level. At this point, the hose bib feed is not likely to be collecting frost, even when we see -20 temperatures.
I realize that every plumbing system is different, but having lived in several houses that are over 40 years old, I know that a lot of them have shutoff valves several inches from the inside of the exterior wall that the hose bib is mounted to (outside.) General practice around here is some time in September, say Labor Day, or into October, Halloween, shut off that valve, go out to the hose bib and open it to drain the bib. Even with that, when my folks built their house in the early 1970's, the hose bibs there were 'frost free' bibs where the valve for the bib was inside the house. At that point you just unhook the hose at the end of the season, and let the bib drain. I'm also aware that this solution is not perfect, and relies on good installation to provide the angle needed to drain that valve, but so far as I remember, we never had a pipe freeze, even the year we had -60 temperatures.
All of the above though is just my observation. Personally I'd like to see the flush mount hose bib installed in more places. Perhaps that 10 inch variety, but the main reason is that there have been a number of people who've come home from a summer vacation to discover that they were going to be paying a hefty water bill because some kid down the street thought it would be cute to turn on the hose at the side of the house. (not to mention what this can do to foundations depending on where the water ends up.
If you want to see how a cold climate construction is done then come visit some project sites in Winnipeg Manitoba Canada. Homes are designed for -50 degrees Celsius. 12” minimum frost free valves required. Many have a secondary shut off valve just inside the foundation in case the frost free fails.
Even frostproof shutoffs will freeze if you leave your garden hose connected. They only work if the water can drain out as you close the valve.
Why would anyone leave an unheated hose connected to a hose bib? I use a heated hose and a floating trough heater to make sure my livestock have drinking water through the winter.
If the water hose is connected on the outside. The water hose in this case is the supply line.
Ok, now here is real world advice. I had a plumbing business in the coldest town in the lower 48 and never witnessed a frosted bib. That is if it is installed right. Most are not. It has to be graded down hill and out of the house. It has to be strapped inside of the house to prevent it from losing pitch, and from being pulled out of the siding. The two screws on the outside of frost free bibs are not enough to keep it from being yanked out. They make frost free wall anchors. Never insulate the bib inside the house because when homeowners forgets to remove the hose, the insulation helps the freeze move into the house faster. When possible, choose to enter the house below floor level. Its better to flood the dirt of a crawl space when they burst than above floor. Bibs above floors need access panels to replace. Return air vents make perfect access panels because they leave warm air from house fight back freezing bibs that had hoses left on. Architects need to consider hose bib placement around the house so access to bibs are in closets not in the living room. Don't put service loops on frost free bib. This indicates you never strapped the bib inside. Don't install frost free bibs that you can't find parts quickly. I think the Woodford model 19 is the best all round frost free on the market. It has extra freeze protection and repair parts can be found in any town. Lastly, install a longer frost free than you did in your experiment. This will leave more surface area for house heat to fight back frozen bibs from bursting. Don't terminate it within a inch of entering house.
Also add pex pipe after 1' of copper for each type of valves so there is less copper transfer and rap with installation. Keep up the great videos. Love your work
I find it very interesting that there are no distributors for Aquor in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois or Upper Michigan.
The plastic would probably crack at the screw plate at 0 F or colder
Matt our frost free faucets come standard with copper inside fit and exterior male pipe threads.
From experience, make sure tilted slightly towards hose side ,lol.
Also for homeowners, don't leave the hose attached during freezing weather.
Tilted up toward the hose (to release all air in the line when 1st opened) or down toward hose?
Michael Amick , slightly downwards to drain the water out, after shutoff.
I was going to comment the same exact thing. The pipes needed to be bled out, the exposed pipings needed a proper simulated insulation, and actually turning the spigot open to see the results. This experiment needs to be redone! I
For the most part, air humidity levels are so dry in the winter that condensation doesn't form (for example windows unless you are talking kitchen/bath) up here in Illinois. There is more humidity if the temps float above freezing during the day and below at night, but at those temps the no freeze silcock is not cold enough to overcome the heat of the house (I have one exposed and visible in the utility room). On a humid spring/summer day, I have seen pipes with flowing cold water have condensate and dripping.
So what we've learned is to use straight copper pipes to the outside
Also don't insulate the walls near the hose bibs to help your interior copper pipes act as a radiator to the hose bib and prevent freezing.
-28F on my build in Colorado gives a Real Test. This may be a little BIASED Test as I don't see foam sealing the middle spicket. It appears air leakage promotes the condensation. I notice the Copper one is closest to your heater too. Not purging the air works against accurate example. Here in the Colorado Rockies we angle the bib with a angle to drain after use. 20:36 at 20F we wear T Shirts like in my "Greater to Give" vid it shows 5F.
I met Tim with his grandkids in Creede last year. Be Blessed
If it gold COLD ENOUGH outside, every pipe in the house would freeze. Further, who in their right mind would use such a short frost free valve in a climate where it gets that cold? The norm in my area is a 12 inch, and I have NEVER seen one freeze unless some idiot left a hose connected or whatever which, of course, doesn't allow it to drain.THIS WAS SIMPLY A VIDEO - ANYTHING - TO GET THE MULTIPLE ADS ON.
Climate change is doing a real number on us. Last year's polar vortex brought much lower temperatures and for longer periods, and thus houses weren't built with those temperatures in mind. After all, if the local climate tends towards an average low of just below freezing, you're not going to be building a house to withstand -15F for weeks on end.
Fast forward 40 years from when the house was built in the 70's or 80's, and suddenly you're faced with the very real prospect of split water lines in your wall, because we've been ignoring all the science about climate change.
@@MrMartinSchou My Colorado Climate change was -28F a couple weeks ago.
That's the thing... why didn't you frame up a more realistic test... you're a BUILDER! Let's do this again. Right this time. Love you like a brother. #StayBlessed.
Do you think there might of been a void of air left during the test?
The brass has more surface area inside the freezer.
Great demo. For a climate that sees regular below freezing temps, I would prefer to have a shutoff well in side the house in addition to the frost free. Just not worth the trouble if it can be prevented for the cost of a couple extra valves. Close the house valve, open the bib Leave the bib open or not. Won’t need a hose bib outside in the winter anyway.
Matt,
In WI our new old house has no rim joists insulation and had a frost free hose bib and it froze, so I added a shut off on the line with a frost free bib also insulated the rim joists no issue this winter.
I live in Ohio and all of my outside outlets go through the 12” block walls and they are all stainless and shutoff on the inside at 14” in the basement! So I don’t have to worry about the temperature outside ever!
Good job!
Eh.. you can get a fancy hose bib.. or, when Winter comes along and you know your stuff is at the risk of freezing, you can close the valve that leads out to it that's normally located near your water inlet (several feet inside your home, somewhere near the water heater), and then open it to drain the water out.
Bam. Instant 48" cut off system, cost: $0.
This ice has a temperature of 46 degrees F .... Hmm you sure about that bud?
The infrared temp sensor devices pickup reflected light from the room to 'reflect' the higher temps.
PS: My experience is if you have an insulated pipe it will not sweat to a measurable degree in a real installation inside the insulation. So the pipe buried in insulation will most likely not sweat until it becomes exposed to the inside moisture laden air. It would also be good to see a like experiment with a set of bibs with a foam cup installed on the outer (inside the freezer) wall surface to see just how effective they can be. I find them to be quite effective. Vancouver is not a "colder" climate comparatively speaking. The ocean moderates the temperatures. Go fifty miles inland and you get much colder as polar air flows south between mountains and down river valleys.
My house in Toronto Canada only has a regular copper faucet. It has never leaked. I grew up in Sudbury, Ontario where -30s is common for extended periods and we only had a regular faucet there too. Never leaked. I never heard of frost free hose bibs until I saw your videos.
hey Matt why the copper didn't freeze is because you installed it right. Every hose Bibb is never air tight sealed allows the air to flow around pipe. The colder it gets outside the more of a draft over the pipe there is. I have had copper pipe in a crawlspace in -25c and they don't freeze because there no air movement.
I’m in Wisconsin and never got around to putting in a frost free spigot. I have a shut off in the house and then I open the valve outside. I’ve never had a problem even when we hit -22F last winter. I’ll keep my fingers crossed just in case🤞🏻
If you plan on doing this again try putting some pipe insulation on the warm side of them and like everyone has stated, bleed the air from the lines. The condensation is something to note as well, one more reason to vapor seal your rim joists... if you have copper pipes
Absolutely fascinating! I am sure you have thought of this, wonder how the experiment would run if you have made a simulated wall. I was imagining a small "reverse" house/icebox scenario with siding facing inside where ice blocks would be located and facing outward in layers your wrap, sheer, stud cavity, insulation and vapor barrier. Then you could peek inside those layers as the experiment progresses. As always I truly enjoy your nerdy scientific view into the world of construction. Thanks!!
Dry ice is really cold, but it actually takes less energy to heat a pound of CO2 from just below it's sublimation point to above the melting point of water than it does to just melt a pound of ice.
Needs to repeat test where the room stays down to 40 inside the house to simulate crawl spaces and finished basements where heat doesn't get to the pipes so easily... Should also insulate the pipe as well...
Also as a Colorado plumber, most frost free, yes you read that right, hose bibs freeze in the tube of the spout side up against the shut off, it doesn't matter how deep in the wall it is... I have seen frost free hose bibs freeze where non frost free didn't... And we do get down to negative 10 degrees at times...
Interesting experiment. However, in Maine we see water lines to an exterior spigot/hose bib in many properties in an unconditioned basement or crawlspace. The ambient air temperature in the basement may be 50 to 55 in the winter, with the temperature in a crawlspace being much colder. Relative humidity in these spaces would be closer to humidity on the exterior so I would not expect similar amounts of condensation as in your experiment. Would be interesting to see this experiment performed in conditions attempting to duplicate the conditions in a cold climate such as here in Maine.
The other problem with this test is that there's only an inch and a bit of insulation on the pipe before its back in warm air. What happens in real walls is that there is 6-8" of insulation on the pipe which doesn't allow the hot air to touch the pipe and gives enough insulated water volume to cause a significant enough ice formation to rupture the pipe. The internal air in a cold climate is also likely 20-40% humidity not the 60+ your air likely is (why you have so much condensation). Why those other cold weather fittings are great is that they put the spot where the water is back in the warm inner air area and basically all your pipe is in that warm inner air area anyway.
Repeat with lines purged of air, and simulate the pipes being in a wall cavity with minimal air movement. Perhaps have an elevated purge tank under pressure to keep your samples under water pressure, without having an active main… Even just a plexi-glas shell so you can see the lines. Or they make a double-wall extruded polycarbonate panel that makes a good minimally insulated wall that you can still observe through.
Bought my house in Oct 2017 and was informed there was minor water damage to the front foundation. No source for water was found, outside drainage was fine and wall was dry inside. Summer 2018 I found wet pipes inside when watering front lawn. Found pinholes 5 or 6 inches from valve, bib had a 10 inch shut off. Spray from the pinholes was wetting the foundation wall.
Wind along with low temps is what usually freezes hose bibs. It constantly removes heat from the house that is trying to keep the hose bib assembly warm.
More than a few flaws with this test unfortunately. Among them is there's still compressed air in the pipe which would not be the case if you had water flowing through the wall faucet. I think this is why none of them burst. Using an inferred thermometer for ICE is a bad idea because the ICE is reflective. A lot of the time the copper pipe butts up against something which helps to make them burst when it freezes. The brass water faucet seems to me like it wasn't sealed up correctly and has a tiny air leak hints the ice build up. The water must have not been frozen when it came out so its a lot less likely that its the fault of the faucet.
Love the experiment but I would love to see a redo with the previous comments considered. I would definitely leave the water on too. You could also test one of those WiFi water shut offs for if a line breaks from freezing. 😉
I wonder if the difference between the middle pipe and the copper on the right was affected by how clean the hole was drilled through the side of the freezer. A little bit of tearout or separation in the layers might allow more of the cold to leak through and freeze around the pipe
3 fatal flaws in the experiment as conducted. First as you said the wall cavity. Southern pipes wouldn't pick up the heat from the house as they come through the slab and into the wall cavity. Second is ground water temperature. Yes Northern homes may be exposed to 68 degree basements (many would be less), however the ground water temperature can be around 50 or less. So the delta wouldn't be very large allowing the freezing to take place easier. I would also allow the valves to run on the inside to make sure there was no trapped air as there would be the way you conducted. Air rises and the only place for it to go was the valves. I think you could build a temporary wall Sheetrock and all with all the metal tubing enclosed, only the rubber hose sticking out and get more accurate results.I realize it would present some challenges with filming but would be far more accurate.
0:30 I am only 30 seconds in and I am already excited to see how this goes!
Thanks for making these types of videos and satisfying my curiosity. :-D
I do not know for that particular model of hose bib, but my in my limited experience, all models I have installed or had installed could be sweated or threaded (if not setup for pex). Just because it has a MIP fitting dose not mean that it was installed incorrectly.
I agree not a good test. For one with crawlspace the pipes will be colder than 60 in very cold weather most of the time. You are correct the copper pipe leading to the bibs was helping to heat them up from the room and they were copper good conductors. Next you should put a fake wall on outside of the freezer (at least an R13 2x4 wall) this would likely cause the non frost proof faucet to lose heat to the freezer and freeze inside the insulation . The other thing is like others said run the faucets a quart or so to make sure water is in them fully.
The big thing is after the 2-4 days remove some of the dry ice and try to run water through the faucet , this will prove whether or not they have totally frozen if the valve opens. Then replace ice if you want to test further.
Last I would use PVC or pex or anything but copper pipe to supply the faucets as copper piping is a real rarity these days and the plastics won't conduct the heat to a great extent.
In short, good idea but poor setup of the test
In colder climates (I'm in NJ), the humidity is really low when it is freezing outside. It wouldn't be humid enough inside for the pipes to sweat so much.
Also small fan blowing against the bibs INSIDE COOLER too. That would have really changed effects.
They sell fittings that are meant to be soldered or threaded 17:12 so why would it not pass inspection?
Redo test with properly working freezer. Use Cº as well as Fº. thanks
Many hose bibs may be connected adjacent to a crawl space or semi-heated basement which then reduces the 'delta t' significantly and increases the chance of the water line freezing..
Down here south in Florida we do have even pipe outside of the wall but what I done like I done in Germany to my house all my exterior water spikets are having inside the house at the pipe a shutoff valve and so I leave my exterior wide open and shut off inside this way it will never do any of that. Even here in Florida I done this to my house. I never trust weather but even more contractors. So often I see a spiket been broken or ripped of the wall and so with the shut off I can isolate and allow easy work on it without having to shut off the hole house of water.
Did you bleed the air out when you charged the water line?
If you didn't bleed the ait to the bib you have an invalid test. As for the frost-free they can be soldered or threaded.
I believe you "charged" the lines without bleeding the air out of the top... so the top of the pipes which is near the bibs and in the chest are actually full of air instead of water. Not reality.
There's a couple of issues with your test: a) inside humidity, b) water temperature and pressure.
There's no condensation on our 12in bib because our house has 37% humidity in the winter in Toronto.
The water is coming in at 4-6C from the ground, so our pipes are very, very cold throughout the house. Water pressure is also higher, which means that when ice is formed, there is a LOT more pressure on the pipes.
Great video and format! Could you do one explaining how the pipe system affected COVID-19 spread?
I live in Canada and I put an identical frost free shut off on by soldering it. The guy at Home Depot said I can solder it or screw it on. I hope i did it right!
It appeared the brass bib was leaking cold gas from the dry ice around it which would cause the condensation and frost . You can see it leaking out on the time lapse video if you look closely
Interesting... I live in Georgia and the pipes are in the crawlspace with zero insulation. I had the 12" frost free spigots installed last year and this past fall, I wrapped the pipes with foam insulation.
Experiment needs to be redone with appropriate insulation on the first 8 inches on the pipes to replicate an in wall install. This would keep ambient from warming the pipes and preventing ice plugs. Also, empty the freezer and turn the valves on to see if they are plugged before you cut the pipes. If you install a pressure tank, your can then pressurize the system and then remove the test system from the water supply. It would then still have pressure applied and a limited volume of water to leak out of the system should a pipe split.
I don't know about every one in the north but I shut my hose bibs off in the house and leave the bib open so the ice will push out of the bib if it does freeze and not break the pipe
hey Matt this summer I put a frost proof hose bibb 12-inch model we just had a week of straight -40c temps and no issues from it, I also have the ability to drain the line as well but i wanted to see how it would handle it
Living in a converted garage up in the Yukon, built 25 years ago by the original homeowner. Passivhaus this is not. It has very normal hose bibbs; NOT the fancy frost free hose bibbs. Temperatures in the Yukon can plunge to below -50 °C, and generally sit below freezing all day between November and March. We just came out of two weeks of -35 °C (daily high) to -45 °C (nightly low) weather and I can still operate my hose bibs, which I suspect is because there is so much heat loss occurring that freezing damage does not occur. It was so cold we had up to 4" of ice on the inside of our windows.
Also, our main water supply enters the building through the wall above ground level and is covered by a very basic insulated box, a very strange design decision for such a cold climate. Rime ice build-up around the joints of the box infer heat from the building is keeping the box warm as hot air escapes through it.
Unless you purged the air, you like don't have water up to the valves.
Who uses a 4" Frostproof? Shouldnt these have insulation around them as they would in reality? This is test is infomercial-like.
In northern climates the vapour barrier is on the inside. Even if the pipe gets cold, you won't get condensation there because the air inside the insulation has the same dew point as the air outside.
It would be interesting to see what it would do if you had used Pex. I would imagine the copper and brass would have frozen without the copper "radiator effect".
up here in north central MN. we use a min 10 inch frost free hose bib. my house has 12 inch.. we just went thru a week of teens and 20's below zero F. and wind chills of 35 to 45 below..
Wind chill relates only to exposed flesh which has a temperature target of around 38 C/100 F. Wind chill has absolutely nothing to do with pipes, siding, house insulation etc.