Oh I liked this video a lot! I feel like there are parallels between this and the Romantic movement and its particular obsession with the "purity" and "unblemished" natural emotionality and feeling of the uneducated, rural poor. Poems, paintings and novels extolling the virtue and innocence and closeness to nature, used in part to justify never changing or bettering their conditions, because it would sully them with modernity. I wonder also if there's a link there to the trope that great art is created through pain, and thus the suffering of artists is noble, rather than just _suffering_ which should be alleviated?
Great thoughts! Yes, I think you're right: the idea of the outsider artist is very much connected to the concept of suffering nobly for art. For example some historians, like Roger Cardinal, staunchly believed that any kind education would sully the work of disabled artists even though it might've enriched their lives. Class also majorly factors into outsider art because it suggests that poor people are more 'spiritually rich' and are therefore more artistically interesting. It's a pretty wild way of thinking that is still very influential today!
Wonderful video. I had a weird fascination with "Outsider Art" for a time, buying into the whole "mystical visionaries" idea, until I visited The Museum Of Everything in London in 2010 and someone had signed the guestbook commenting on the troubling ableism and voyeuristic nature of the so-called genre as a whole, and the issues inherent in displaying artwork without the artist's consent - that's kind of stuck with me ever since.
It's hard not to be fascinated with outsider art because there are so many wonderful, thought provoking artists that have had that label applied to them. Thanks for sharing your experience and revelation regarding the genre!
@@Catlily5 a lot of outsider art doesn't find an audience until after the artist's death because those people were very private on this side of life. To answer, they don't have to; but after death, there is the question of what edification or greater good it might bring society to view those works.
I always felt a weird vibe from the term 'outsider art' and the sensationalist way writers or presenters talk about artists like James Hampton. Thanks for putting it into words. There's just this idea that 'art' has no earthly business coming from certain places or made by certain people and it's... well lack of a better word, gross.
Truly. It disgusts me this type of elitism anywhere, but even more in art. Why should culture and ways of expression be judged in these terrible elitists ways?
Your comment really hits the nail on the head. It's so strange (and disappointing) that important, thought provoking art is only supposed to be made by some people and not others. Here's to hoping that will shift as more and more people learn about this issue in art. Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment!
thank you for making this! i’m autistic and mentally ill.. and although i reclaim the phrase “outsider music” for myself. i don’t like how weird and snobby people are about it.. i love ‘weird’ things and i wish people could just appreciate art for art. not because “ooh they are mentally ill and have no formal education” … i wouldn’t want to be known as “insane man who makes music and art oooh so weird and wacky let’s observe his brain under a microscope” instead of “oh hey ur music’s neat :)”
can i listen to your music? because mfs out here who call themselves outsider music n make musi aren't really outsider music because they're self aware. i'm nd n i don't call my shit outsider music
I am mentally ill and autistic. I make art. I never considered myself an outsider artist because I took art classes in junior high, high school and one college class. So I would not be self taught. I think art usually has no worth in the art world unless you went to art school. Outsider art is ableist but probably the only way most of these people would ever be recognized without an art degree. You would have to dismantle the whole way art is sold in the USA for anyone who isn't an art school graduate to ever have a chance to sell their work in the art world without ableism. Let's be realistic. Most disabled artists would not be recognized on their own merit in our current system. No matter how good or interesting their work might be.
It's a lot easier when you didn't buy into the whole interpretation of art thing from the beginning. Taking away the mysticism and seeing it for what it is
Your channel is very helpful for me, as an art student currently it has been helping me come to understand the theories behind a lot of the concepts we are touching on in our classes because of the visual aids and straightforward breakdown that helps me understand the analysis processes behind art theory.
Its one of the few art genres I've ever liked. I don't know why or how I got into it. For some reason, it just resonates with me more than 'academic' art normally does. Maybe its due to me being a cultural outsider myself. There's also sort of an underdog aspect to it. I can't draw worth crap, though I have tried to learn multiple times. Most outsider artists obviously couldn't draw either, but they still chose to express themselves anyway. Art to me is inherently ablest. If you can't draw like a freaking master, then you have no right to do it. I've also run into ableism in the gaming industry. Everyone there seems to think that you shouldn't be allowed to play games unless you're seriously the best of the best. To me, that's like saying you're not allowed to play basketball under any circumstance unless you could seriously make it into the NBA. This video has made me question my fascination with outsider art. Like I said, I saw it as giving credit to those who aren't 'good' artists. After watching this video a few times, now I think I've had it all wrong. Its exploitation, othering, and lacks consent. Now, I can't see it the same way again. I'm mainly posting this to demonstrate that not everyone into it is an ablest, some of us simply don't fully realize what it is. Guess I won't be looking up art anymore. Oh well. Is nothing safe on youtube?
Loved the video. Came across the term outsider art recently and I wanted to learn more because the art seemed interesting. Now I understand how the labeling can be harmful too. Great work!
great video :-) but if i could make any changes, i'd lower the visual effects on some of the videos. the audio on its own is great to listen to, but the patterns and saturated colors make it a little troubling for me to watch.
Thanks for the feedback. It's appreciated! This was one of our first videos and we're still learning the ropes. It's helpful to know what is and isn't working. :]
So I’m a guy who lives in the middle of nowhere, no formal education, making art in various media, carving, painting, furniture making. I make wooden toys and stupid shit . I am what some would call an outsider artist. But lately I’ve been making some pretty fancy paintings. I don’t think those should be categorized as outsider art. I don’t think it matters.
My brother is disabled and wont be able to get a normal job... Because disabled people are paid so horribly and he is really good at making art, I often think that he might become an artist But that people would consider it 'Outsider Art' makes me angry I have also thought about studying art I hate their elitism so much that I could not even apply On a better note, I think the internet and freelance artists make people appreciate skill more than before
I can't be exactly sure of what he meant but maybe he meant that untrained people often have to develop their own skills independent of education in order to express themselves. Further, they often lack the funds for often expensive mediums to create their art and so often look to inexpensive methods such as using, for example, trash repurposed into art.
I always thought that part of the interest in art is how each person interprets the art. I create art but different people will get different things from it. The mistake would be to assume that your interpretation is the "correct" one.
In my opinion tho, I think that the beginner's guide is a game that's meant to be interpreted but you shouldn't use it to interpret Davey the creator. I am currently arguing with someone on a comment section that argues that the game's real message is "don't interpret art it's bad" and he said that the message is wrong and pretentious of Davey.
Agreed entirely: I think the game is explicitly created for interpretation but not a tool to get to interpret Wreden. In many ways, it's a cautionary tale about assumption.
@@2ArtistsEXPlain someone already fallen and made the mistake. Another commenter said in the same thread that Davey is a pretentious asshole because of this game and that he has already now fallen in the same trap as Davey in game
This video is so infuriating. Its WRONG!!! The whole video is hinging on false assumptions. You did NOT give the correct definition of outsider art. You did NOT give an accurate outline of its timeline, and this entire video was obviously desperately constructed around the premise "outsider art is ableist". Its not. People involved were, but thats true of all groups of people. You never dive into the actual detailed descriptions of amy of the people you name drop. You glossing over EVERYTHING. The take away message you are supplying with this video is "supporting the convention of outsider art is supporting ableism". This is wrong, as the genera has had a prolific possitive impact on marginalized communities in terms of attention and demand/market. Interesting would not exist the way it does otherwise. This video is naive at best and maliciously manipulative at worst.
There was never a solid connection between being autistic and outsider art. Art brut transformed into an observation of creative endeavors that take place totally outside of mainstream culture. Many famous outsider artists are NOT REMEMBERED in the ways you seem to imply, and are held in high regard. Much of their work is discovered post mortem and is acquired rightfully. You are trying to hijack the convo by centering on neurodivergency for self fulfillment because then it suddenly has something to do with YOU!!! A young unrecognized neurodivergent ameture artist. But that's dishonest and not fair.
![The Death Of Art - Outsider Art Fair 2023, Chelsea, New York City [Ep 40]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z7WZisyZvzo/mqdefault.jpg)
Oh I liked this video a lot! I feel like there are parallels between this and the Romantic movement and its particular obsession with the "purity" and "unblemished" natural emotionality and feeling of the uneducated, rural poor. Poems, paintings and novels extolling the virtue and innocence and closeness to nature, used in part to justify never changing or bettering their conditions, because it would sully them with modernity.
I wonder also if there's a link there to the trope that great art is created through pain, and thus the suffering of artists is noble, rather than just _suffering_ which should be alleviated?
Great thoughts! Yes, I think you're right: the idea of the outsider artist is very much connected to the concept of suffering nobly for art. For example some historians, like Roger Cardinal, staunchly believed that any kind education would sully the work of disabled artists even though it might've enriched their lives. Class also majorly factors into outsider art because it suggests that poor people are more 'spiritually rich' and are therefore more artistically interesting. It's a pretty wild way of thinking that is still very influential today!
Wonderful video. I had a weird fascination with "Outsider Art" for a time, buying into the whole "mystical visionaries" idea, until I visited The Museum Of Everything in London in 2010 and someone had signed the guestbook commenting on the troubling ableism and voyeuristic nature of the so-called genre as a whole, and the issues inherent in displaying artwork without the artist's consent - that's kind of stuck with me ever since.
It's hard not to be fascinated with outsider art because there are so many wonderful, thought provoking artists that have had that label applied to them. Thanks for sharing your experience and revelation regarding the genre!
I know plenty of mentally ill people who would willingly share our work. Why do they have to hang work against people's will?
@@Catlily5 a lot of outsider art doesn't find an audience until after the artist's death because those people were very private on this side of life. To answer, they don't have to; but after death, there is the question of what edification or greater good it might bring society to view those works.
@@SillyStarChild The video said that they were showing people's work against their will. That is what I am responding to.
I always felt a weird vibe from the term 'outsider art' and the sensationalist way writers or presenters talk about artists like James Hampton. Thanks for putting it into words. There's just this idea that 'art' has no earthly business coming from certain places or made by certain people and it's... well lack of a better word, gross.
Truly. It disgusts me this type of elitism anywhere, but even more in art. Why should culture and ways of expression be judged in these terrible elitists ways?
Your comment really hits the nail on the head. It's so strange (and disappointing) that important, thought provoking art is only supposed to be made by some people and not others. Here's to hoping that will shift as more and more people learn about this issue in art. Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment!
thank you for making this! i’m autistic and mentally ill.. and although i reclaim the phrase “outsider music” for myself. i don’t like how weird and snobby people are about it.. i love ‘weird’ things and i wish people could just appreciate art for art. not because “ooh they are mentally ill and have no formal education” … i wouldn’t want to be known as “insane man who makes music and art oooh so weird and wacky let’s observe his brain under a microscope” instead of “oh hey ur music’s neat :)”
Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment. We feel the exact same way. :]
can i listen to your music? because mfs out here who call themselves outsider music n make musi aren't really outsider music because they're self aware. i'm nd n i don't call my shit outsider music
I am mentally ill and autistic. I make art. I never considered myself an outsider artist because I took art classes in junior high, high school and one college class. So I would not be self taught.
I think art usually has no worth in the art world unless you went to art school. Outsider art is ableist but probably the only way most of these people would ever be recognized without an art degree. You would have to dismantle the whole way art is sold in the USA for anyone who isn't an art school graduate to ever have a chance to sell their work in the art world without ableism. Let's be realistic. Most disabled artists would not be recognized on their own merit in our current system. No matter how good or interesting their work might be.
It's a lot easier when you didn't buy into the whole interpretation of art thing from the beginning. Taking away the mysticism and seeing it for what it is
Art is art, enjoy it for what it is and don’t speak for an artist unless they say ok.
Your channel is very helpful for me, as an art student currently it has been helping me come to understand the theories behind a lot of the concepts we are touching on in our classes because of the visual aids and straightforward breakdown that helps me understand the analysis processes behind art theory.
Its one of the few art genres I've ever liked. I don't know why or how I got into it. For some reason, it just resonates with me more than 'academic' art normally does. Maybe its due to me being a cultural outsider myself. There's also sort of an underdog aspect to it. I can't draw worth crap, though I have tried to learn multiple times. Most outsider artists obviously couldn't draw either, but they still chose to express themselves anyway. Art to me is inherently ablest. If you can't draw like a freaking master, then you have no right to do it. I've also run into ableism in the gaming industry. Everyone there seems to think that you shouldn't be allowed to play games unless you're seriously the best of the best. To me, that's like saying you're not allowed to play basketball under any circumstance unless you could seriously make it into the NBA.
This video has made me question my fascination with outsider art. Like I said, I saw it as giving credit to those who aren't 'good' artists. After watching this video a few times, now I think I've had it all wrong. Its exploitation, othering, and lacks consent. Now, I can't see it the same way again.
I'm mainly posting this to demonstrate that not everyone into it is an ablest, some of us simply don't fully realize what it is. Guess I won't be looking up art anymore. Oh well. Is nothing safe on youtube?
I am mentally ill and I found some outsider art interesting. I didn't know that they took it against people's will.
Wow, this is a very insightful and informative video. Thank you for your thoughtful treatment of the subject matter and the engaging content! 👌🏻
Thanks for watching!
Loved the video. Came across the term outsider art recently and I wanted to learn more because the art seemed interesting. Now I understand how the labeling can be harmful too. Great work!
We have so many preconceptions and unconscious biases.
great video :-) but if i could make any changes, i'd lower the visual effects on some of the videos. the audio on its own is great to listen to, but the patterns and saturated colors make it a little troubling for me to watch.
Thanks for the feedback. It's appreciated! This was one of our first videos and we're still learning the ropes. It's helpful to know what is and isn't working. :]
So I’m a guy who lives in the middle of nowhere, no formal education, making art in various media, carving, painting, furniture making. I make wooden toys and stupid shit .
I am what some would call an outsider artist.
But lately I’ve been making some pretty fancy paintings. I don’t think those should be categorized as outsider art. I don’t think it matters.
My brother is disabled and wont be able to get a normal job... Because disabled people are paid so horribly and he is really good at making art, I often think that he might become an artist
But that people would consider it 'Outsider Art' makes me angry
I have also thought about studying art I hate their elitism so much that I could not even apply
On a better note, I think the internet and freelance artists make people appreciate skill more than before
I can't be exactly sure of what he meant but maybe he meant that untrained people often have to develop their own skills independent of education in order to express themselves. Further, they often lack the funds for often expensive mediums to create their art and so often look to inexpensive methods such as using, for example, trash repurposed into art.
I love this channel so much. Please keep going.
Thank you so, so much for this kind comment. We've got many more video ideas planned out... we're just getting started!
I always thought that part of the interest in art is how each person interprets the art. I create art but different people will get different things from it.
The mistake would be to assume that your interpretation is the "correct" one.
This game is so meta
In my opinion tho, I think that the beginner's guide is a game that's meant to be interpreted but you shouldn't use it to interpret Davey the creator.
I am currently arguing with someone on a comment section that argues that the game's real message is "don't interpret art it's bad" and he said that the message is wrong and pretentious of Davey.
Agreed entirely: I think the game is explicitly created for interpretation but not a tool to get to interpret Wreden. In many ways, it's a cautionary tale about assumption.
@@2ArtistsEXPlain someone already fallen and made the mistake.
Another commenter said in the same thread that Davey is a pretentious asshole because of this game and that he has already now fallen in the same trap as Davey in game
Thank you for making this video this is 100% true
This video is so infuriating. Its WRONG!!! The whole video is hinging on false assumptions. You did NOT give the correct definition of outsider art. You did NOT give an accurate outline of its timeline, and this entire video was obviously desperately constructed around the premise "outsider art is ableist".
Its not. People involved were, but thats true of all groups of people. You never dive into the actual detailed descriptions of amy of the people you name drop. You glossing over EVERYTHING.
The take away message you are supplying with this video is "supporting the convention of outsider art is supporting ableism". This is wrong, as the genera has had a prolific possitive impact on marginalized communities in terms of attention and demand/market. Interesting would not exist the way it does otherwise.
This video is naive at best and maliciously manipulative at worst.
There was never a solid connection between being autistic and outsider art. Art brut transformed into an observation of creative endeavors that take place totally outside of mainstream culture. Many famous outsider artists are NOT REMEMBERED in the ways you seem to imply, and are held in high regard. Much of their work is discovered post mortem and is acquired rightfully.
You are trying to hijack the convo by centering on neurodivergency for self fulfillment because then it suddenly has something to do with YOU!!! A young unrecognized neurodivergent ameture artist. But that's dishonest and not fair.