As a lifelong Hawks fan this is difficult to watch. This approach to concussion used to be standard operating procedure and everyone did it back then. I read somewhere when Roger Staubach took a vicious hit Tom Landry said "I was delighted it was his head not his knees". It was the way the game was played but it doesn't make right . Go Hawks
@@fucker661 Russ, left because he wanted to be defacto GM, HC and OC and that wasn't goingto happen. Pete Carroll has a lot to answer for but he is not Mike Holmgrem and he can't be held responsible for the latter's actions. Go Hawks
Mr. Landry where do you think the QB has to store what all the plays and formations and so on are? AND must decide, line up, yell out those code numbers and say HIKE! all in the span of 40 seconds? Or else get pushed back five yards?
@@JohnSmith-zw8vp I'm not taking a shot at Tom Landry, merely using this quote to show the general attitude towards concussion. If a player got "dinged" he might out for series or two if it was really bad possibly the rest of the game. But he would play in the next game, but if it was a knee injury the player would probably be lost for the rest of the season . Hence Tom Landry's statement. Go Hawks
The concussion test used to be asking what day it was. As long as the player answers Sunday he's good. Even if it's a Saturday playoff or Monday night he's just one day off so good enough
@@lesliebell4189 nothing wrong with the west coast offense. It's stood the test of time and is one of few that can say that. The problem is pat shurmur not knowing a gameplay besides HB dive, off tackle, comeback route, punt
I like that less than a minute in, you pointed out that Brett Favre did something stupid. Favre's entire career was predicated on stupid passes, sometimes into double or triple coverage, that he got away with. This guy didn't set the record for interceptions simply by longevity.
Odd. Players used to ALWAYS go back in after "getting their bell rung." Ignorance leads to unhealthy decisions. I don't remember how strict concussion protocol was in the NFL at the time of this incident. But who wants to play in a losing game and risk brain damage for a lifetime? Ugh.
I'm a big Holmgren fan and as a Niner fan I'm disappointed he was never the HC of SF. This was by far a horrible decision, but even just 22 years ago, this was standard operating procedure for most, if not all, NFL teams. If a guy was concussed but could still walk/talk and stated he wanted to go back in, he did. Also I always forget Seattle rocked these ancient looking uniforms until like 2000 or 2001. This looks like an 80s game with them wearing those bad boys.
I remember this game. I remember some on sports radio in Seattle defending this too. On a positive note, one thing you can always count on from the hawks back then was watching Walter Jones erase the guy lined up across from him
I’m seeing a couple of people talk about what happened at Michigan in 2014, so let me set the record straight on that. Shane Morris started at quarterback against Minnesota, and was getting destroyed. He had to come out of the game, with some suspecting he had a concussion. According to the protocol at the time a player with a suspected concussion had to come out of the game and have his helmet taken away. Morris still had his helmet on the sidelines when his replacement at QB, Devin Gardner, lost his helmet on a play. Gardner had to come out of the game for at least one play due to the rules in place in College Football. Coach Brady Hoke responded by putting Morris back in the game, when he hadn’t gone through the whole protocol. I’m a huge fan of both the Seahawks and Michigan, but these are dark spots on my fandom.
Wow...just wow. Talk about not caring about the health and safety of his quarterback knowing he had a concussion. This one goes beyond words. Just awful. Excellent video on your end. Your passion for videos like these are evident.
I just realized that after Holmgren said Kitna gave them the best chance of winning even though he knew he had a concussion, he was basically saying that a concussed player is better than the 3rd stringer they had. That is a backhanded burn if I've ever seen one.
This episode hits different after the whole Tua Tagoviloua situation. Definitely a huge stain on Holmgren's reputation; I can only hope there were people on Sportscenter or NFL Primetime tearing into his decision. The thought of Chris Berman or Stuart Scott calling Holmgren an idiot is the only solace I take from watching this.
Jon Kitna was a good little QB and the Pride of Central Washington University, homegrown talent who fought all the odds to make it too the NFL and stuck around a while
The ball washing he got until recently was so cringe worthy... All he did was win with Tony Dungy's team and now we see it's more obvious Keyshawn Johnson told us who Gruden was from the time he became the BUCS coach to the time he retired and everyone trashed him yet keyshawn was proven right and all of them people are playing stupid and pretending they always agreed with him or other men who called Gruden out
I played High school and collage football and playing with a concussion was the norm. They actually did ask what day is it? Where are you? How many fingers am I waving? Even some of the practice drills were head to head collisions, in fact, some of the hardest hits you get were during practices. Its not like it was not known, we just did not care. I would say people were more worried about blowing out a knee than taking a head shot.
This younger generation has no knowledge of how concussions were handled 20-30 and more years ago. Yeah now these events, like the one here, can be outrageous in hindsight. At the time it was actually happening it was treated like a bruise or sprain. A non event basically.
Back then concussions were generally not taken seriously. And even after the league said to take it seriously, a lot of older coaches who were used to being ignorant chose to stay ignorant.
This was during the NFL's denial period concerning concussions. The attitude among 99% of the NFL, from the players to the coaches to the League offices was that you could just "man up", power through it, and not have any issues long term. It wasn't a broken bone or anything immediately visible so it was easy to discount the real danger those players were in. Steve Young needing to retire because he was told by his doctor that one more concussion would either kill him or, as he and others said at the time, "turn him into a vegetable", was seen as an anomaly. Poor Steve was just more susceptible to concussions, the poor guy. Maybe that was true but I've got to think his head hitting the turf or colliding with a helmet strapped onto the front of a speeding locomotive in a football jersey @ 60mph played its part as well. Now, the incident with McCoy - that's totally on Holmgren. They knew what was going on by the 2010's but there were still holdouts trying to claim that the situation was being blown out of proportion. I get your outrage on the Kitna decision but I think the McCoy decision was even worse, given what was known by then.
Looking back on an event 12 years older than the breakthrough research on concussions with modern glasses is a tad ridiculous, I mean back in the 2000s and earlier men were playing through torn MCLs and broken or separated bones pretty commonly. Of course an injury that wasn't visual and often takes time to feel any kind of effect from, and mostly wasn't even known to be serious, was met with a "meh, we'll walk it off" attitude
Stop whining Holmgren was wrong. Even back then they knew that concussions was bad. Kitna even admitted that he couldn't remember anything out there and told Holmgren that.
The problem, as noted in the video, is that even a decade later, Holmgren did the same thing when Colt McCoy got a concussion while he was coaching the Browns. So it make it seem a fair bit more reprehensible due to him not learning from it, since concussions were definitely a raised concern by 2010.
@@51Dutchman that may be so, but this guy is ranting and raving about something that happened in 2000 that literally every team did. If he wanted to do that he should've made this video about Colt Mccoy, I think that would've had his desired effect. Complaint and blaming one person for something that every team did in the 90s is crazy.
The SJW millennial crowd has a habit of judging what society was like decades ago by their twisted modern standards of "morality". WHY did people EVER think gender EXISTED in the 1960s??? *REEEEEEEEEE!!!*
“In which we lived” is a euphemism for “but we’ve always done it that way.” Bad theory. No one likes those types of people at work, no one likes those types of people in socioeconomic situations, and no one likes those types of people at play.
@@chrisp679 It was Sherman's decision. He is the HEAD COACH. He actually admitted he never should have let Favre back in the game. Cute that you don't know how things work.
@@chriskay1449 it’s Brett Fucking Favre. Unless he was completely unconscious, or dead, he was going back in the game. Regardless of who the coach was. So kindly sit down.
@@chrisp679 Wrong. If the coach tells him to sit his ass down, he sits his ass down. You seem to forget that Sherman did that exact thing after just one play. Favre sat down. You kindly sit YOUR ass down.
1999 was such an exciting year in Seattle, with what the team was able to accomplish after such a long drought of success... 2000 was a disappointing season.
Michigan did the same thing against Minnesota in 2014. Starting QB Shane Morris suffered a severe concussion and it was very obvious he had one. Instead of pulling him and putting in Devin Gardner, HC Brady Hoke decided to leave Morris in the game. Hoke rightfully received criticism for this move
Mike Holmgren was one of the coaches named in the class action lawsuit where coaches were threatening to cut players from the team if they didn’t take painkillers.
Holmgren was an overachiever at best. He lucked into someone like Brett Favre and got so much of an ego he thought he could replicate that success with anyone.
Product of the time. Concussions were still for the most part considered nothing burgers then. Not giving holmgren a pass though; high school coaches were still playing Concust kids in the same time period. It's easy to look back in time with expanded knowledge and say "wtf?"
Even though most of those penalty yards don’t mean crap during a game when you aren’t losing because of that. Yes, players do try to get on a ref good side just to have them in their favor.
They used to do this a lot years ago. That maniac Terry Bradshaw came back in a game with a concussion against the dolphins. Also against the Cowboys in super bowl 13. Troy Aikman was still feeling the effects of his in super bowl 28. They only had 1 week rest before that super bowl.
10:00 You can hear the agitation in your voice here. Getting more and more pissed off at leaving Kitna in the game. 11:00 And here is the crescendo. Also, if you don't make a shirt that says "It was than if you spiked the ball on every play", I will be very disappointed. lol
This was an awful look for Holmgren. I know having Matt Lytle in there wasn't ideal, but he was the only sensible option after the Seahawks lost both Huard and Kitna to concussions. You can't have a QB out there who can't remember anything beyond the basic stuff. Thank goodness this crap wouldn't happen in the NFL today.
You missed one huge context. What was known about concussions at that time. How can you over look that but not everything else. I like your channel but this was a big drop.
@@danielmackey9765 Fair enough, I can appreciate that point as a valid one. But still, the fact that Colt didn’t even get checked under Holmgren’s term as President of the Browns, in 2010, seems problematic to say the least.
@@danielmackey9765 did you play football? I doubt you didn't , I did and I don't see any former football players defending this which tells me you're so fat fan who never laced up and actually played but you're an armchair warrior
There’s video out there where Beats Mike Ditka said QB Jim McMahon was mildly concussed in the first half of a game but cleared at halftime to return to the game & he played. I believe it’s 1987-8.
So, all I will say about this: presentism is inappropriate. If you're judging Holmgren's actions in 2000, based on knowledge known in 2022, that's not right. Based on the time this occurred, this was common practice in the NFL. Things have changed obviously. Otherwise, generally I like your films a lot.
I remember when this happened. Even in 2000, it was a stupid thing to do. Plus, Kitna was completely ineffective after the concussion. There's no way he gave them any chance to win. He risked Kitna for nothing.
Same. To blame Holmgren in 2000 for that is nasty. Tons of players played with concussions back then. I like 99% of this guys videos, but this seems of of touch. I feel like he maybe isn't old enough to know the temperature of the nfl back then.
th-cam.com/video/2PQgMzgp8QI/w-d-xo.html John Madden in the early '90s: "I've always thought, if a guy has a concussion, he shouldn't play anymore." And then mentions how in boxing if a guy gets KO'd, he can't fight for 30 days. "And sometimes in football, we say, 'Oh, he has a slight concussion, he'll be right back in'...I don't know if I ever agreed with that."
@@pronkb000 that's still one man's thoughtthough and inside that thought he spoke on the (at the time) prevailing standard around the nfl on concussions. So, as I said, I don't think it's fair to blame holmgren alone for the thought process of the time. I'm can nearly guarantee any of the great head coaches of the time had done it. To single Mike out is just unfair.
I don't think it's fair to blame Holmgren for that. I think it's irresponsible to demonize Holgren without acknowledging the history of how injuries were treated. On top of that, knowledge of those injuries isn't what it is now.
As a nearly lifelong football fan, I have to say.... HORRIBLE..... as a fan of your channel.... DUDE!! TELL US HOW YOU REALLY feel. :D Seriously though, good stuff you put up here as always.... bad coaching and yea, today, Kitna's out... period.
You're absolutely right about the decision to leave Kitna in the game, but I doubt our awareness of concussions was anywhere near the same as it is now back then. My quibble with this is this is judging a 2000 decision based on 2022 understanding of concussions and their long-term effects. I don't know if it's as bad as going "how many fingers am I holding up?" or giving a guy smelling salts to get him back in the game, but yeah it's pretty bad by 2000 standards. By 2022 standards, Holmgren would have gotten his ass kicked by the media for that. It was great context for you to include the bit in Cleveland about Colt McCoy. I recall he got raked through the coals for that decision, and deservedly so.
True about how this looks much worse by today’s standards. However, it also looks bad by the standards the Seahawks showed earlier in the game when they removed their starting QB because of a concussion.
@@robertlawrence4719 Remember there was a lot of media attention paid to the fact that McCoy suffered a concussion and there was a lot of talk about the Browns ignoring that. If I remember correctly, some of the mandatory protocols went into effect right after McCoy's concussion and possibly as a result of it.
I was playing baseball in high school, and I was hit by a batted ball while running to second and knocked unconscious. I was out for about two minutes until they brought me around with smelling salt. They immediately handed me my glove and hat and told me to take the field. I remember none of this, because I have no memory of anything after getting hit for the rest of the night. This is how little people used to care about head injuries. They would just toss us back in without a second thought. No one knew any better
I always hated the third quarterback rule. It bit Bill Parcells and the Jets in a game when Vinny Testaverde ruptured his Achilles tendon in the 2nd quarter. Tom Tupa was the #2 QB for the game. Rick Mirer was #3 QB. They had to use Tupa because he was the Jets punter. If Mirer was used before the 4th quarter, Tupa couldn't re-enter the game in any capacity.
In fairness, I don't think the league considered the idea a Punter would be listed ahead of an actual QB. Though it's still a dumb rule because aside from endangering QBs........I'm not sure what it really could do positive......
@@Meodread Tom Tupa was a starting QB in the NFL. I think the reason why the Jets did it was to activate another player for the game. If they had two quarterbacks dressed for the game, they were allowed to dress a third quarterback who did not count toward the active list. The rule was abolished in 2011.
@@hezamachine yeah but that still being rather ridiculously silly with exploiting the rule. So I can't say I feel bad for the jets in this regard. Though the rule remains stupid of course.
I want you to know this about me, so that you understand where, when and HOW I grew up. Born in Seattle in 1973, where I grew up. Seahawks fan. I HATE the Raiders, Broncos, Chiefs and Chargers!! I CAN'T understand how SO many Seahawks fans do NOT hate the Raiders more. The Raiders basically ended Brock Huard's NFL career, this game. Huard was our "Golden Boy," and the Raiders physically damaged him. I will NEVER forgive the Raiders for that. THAT'S why I was SO happy to see video of Rich Gannon getting injured!! I wasn't actually watching this game when Brock Huard got the concussion. I was LONG time afraid that Huard was "lying down on the ground, unable to move," after getting the concussion. Fortunately, it looks like Huard DID get up right after it happened.
The sports media did a very bad job with how they portrayed Vince Lombardi, when it came to injuries he didn't let them play even if they had a cold...all he wanted was for you to give it 100% in the game even if you failed , my grandpa was old enough to remember how the media said he was "too nice" and "smiled too much" and didnt "take it serious" prior to his death
Another more recent example is when Leftwich broke his rib during a game and Tomlin just left him in to finish the game. He took it like a champ but that was not a good moment at all.
The same thing happened with Derrick Carr last season, he got knocked out on a QB sneak and somehow came back into the game ( I forget which game) but Gruden was still the coach
Who did Mike Holmgren have in Green Bay for his quarterback and played with a ton of concussions Brett Favre so he didn't give a care about player safety about quarterbacks with concussions
The naysaying people on here would’ve looked at all the people who died of dysentery from the contaminated water supply GE polluted with chemicals and said “c’mon: leave modern sensibilities out of it.” Hear, hear JG9: Holmgren absolutely deserves the No music raked over the coals treatment for this one. Hear, friggin hear.
Brock Huard played for my high school team puyallup high school in Puyallup Washington. And Jon Kitna played for my mom's high school while she was there Lincoln high school and coached Lincoln while I played for puyallup. So I guess my point is if your from pierce county you might get a concussion
I had a concussion in the first half of a game asked at halftime if I was good to go.. of course as a 17 year old kid I said yes coach the thought of letting my team down willed me out there and on the opening kick I get it and only remember waking up in a ambulance got knocked out cold pictures in our local paper and everything lucky for me it was only a concussion because God knows it could have been worse. But here's the crazy thing I was in the paper the next week scoring a touchdown and underneath the line was after suffering a concussion the week before he scored this week so ya I was still practicing full speed and back in my day the helmet everyone wanted was a bike. And those helmets are history because they suck you'd be better off with a riddell
You’re looking back on this with modern eyes and modern sensibilities and research. I don’t think you can do that and judge someone in good faith. Love you vids man but yeah disagree on this one.
Iv keeper on playing several times concussed stumbling around for a bit one time I finished on autopilot. And as lineman you were expected to be tough but that was the late 80s. Now concussion protocol only one of new rules I agree with.
In short ,the NFL and NFL coaches n staff really didn't care about Player Safety, AT ALL, back in those days. "Concussion??? No, you just got your "Bell Rung". Get ur ass back out there n play!" To this day, there are THOUSANDS of ex-NFL players, still trying to sue for Medical compensation/ benefits.
Jeez, if you told me this story without telling me who was involved or when it happened, I'd probably guess it was back in 1950s or even earlier, not in 2000! Like was said, why is there an emergency 3rd string QB on the roster if you're not going to use him in that situation? As kind of a funny note, though, that reminds me of when I was playing one of the old NCAA football games, and I had both of the two healthy QBs I had left on my team get injured in a game. I ended up putting in a wide receiver who actually had a little bit of throwing stats for the rest of the game. It wasn't really too bad, though, because I always liked to run the option in those games anyway, lol
14:02 @Official JaguarGator9 C'mon, man! You're better than this! Holmgren was never the coach for the Cleveland Browns! That hit on Colt McCoy was on Pat Shurmer's watch!
That's because they didn't know about CTE until 2002 when late Pittsburgh Steeler Center Mike Webster Died and and autopsy was performed on him. Watch the 2015 Movie Concussion with Will Smith
too bad he suffered thru lions 0-16. at least he was put on ir midway thru it so sorry qb's like orlovsky, dante c, and henson could do their part to contribute to 0-16.
Now I have heard everything. Leaving your concussed QB on the field is the worst thing a coach has ever done. Why isn't he fired afterward? That is bad as trading away your franchise QB who has done much for the city of Seattle. If he knew Colt McCoy was concussed when he was with the Browns president, why didn't he know about the concussions from Kitna and Favre as a coach? I think you should lay in on the current Seahawks front office for the abysmal offseason trade.
It makes me sick when fans who think that football was so much better in the 70s and 80s argue that by saying quarterbacks are so much better protected now. And they are not as tough as they used to be. What a crock. Quarterbacks are the highest paid players in football. That is a fact. Quarterback is the most important position in football there is no question about that. Quarterbacks are more responsible for the quality and entertainment value of the football game than any other player on the field. When the starting quarterback or number one quarterback gets injured, most of the time the quality of the game suffers. Which is bad for everybody. Especially the fans that pay the exorbitant prices to watch the games in person. Even in today’s football quarterbacks to get hit and they do get hurt. In 2018, Alex Smith almost died from an infection as a result of a shattered tibia and Fibia that occurred in a football game. And when the defensive lineman is called for roughing the quarterback, that is not protecting the quarterback the quarterback still got hit. The bottom line is that pro football is far better today than it ever has been. And they could make a few more rule changes not related to the roughness of the game to make it even better.l
This is the one time I think I’ve heard you be genuinely angry. Your “I’m sorry, WHAT?!” was delivered with anger as opposed to mocking.
ONE time?!?! 😲😲😲
@@DolFan316 When else would you say?
Very genuine. It’s the removal of music that made me sit up and say “f-ckin A! JG9 is mad, y’all!”
Peak zoomer rage.
As a lifelong Hawks fan this is difficult to watch. This approach to concussion used to be standard operating procedure and everyone did it back then. I read somewhere when Roger Staubach took a vicious hit Tom Landry said "I was delighted it was his head not his knees". It was the way the game was played but it doesn't make right . Go Hawks
No wonder russ left
@@fucker661 Russ, left because he wanted to be defacto GM, HC and OC and that wasn't goingto happen. Pete Carroll has a lot to answer for but he is not Mike Holmgrem and he can't be held responsible for the latter's actions. Go Hawks
Mr. Landry where do you think the QB has to store what all the plays and formations and so on are? AND must decide, line up, yell out those code numbers and say HIKE! all in the span of 40 seconds? Or else get pushed back five yards?
@@JohnSmith-zw8vp
I'm not taking a shot at Tom Landry, merely using this quote to show the general attitude towards concussion. If a player got "dinged" he might out for series or two if it was really bad possibly the rest of the game. But he would play in the next game, but if it was a knee injury the player would probably be lost for the rest of the season . Hence Tom Landry's statement. Go Hawks
The concussion test used to be asking what day it was. As long as the player answers Sunday he's good. Even if it's a Saturday playoff or Monday night he's just one day off so good enough
Concerning the Colt McCoy incident, Holmgren wasn't the coach of the Browns, he was the team president. Pat Shurmur was the coach at the time.
I can't stand Shurmur. West Coast Offense.
@@lesliebell4189 nothing wrong with the west coast offense. It's stood the test of time and is one of few that can say that. The problem is pat shurmur not knowing a gameplay besides HB dive, off tackle, comeback route, punt
I like that less than a minute in, you pointed out that Brett Favre did something stupid. Favre's entire career was predicated on stupid passes, sometimes into double or triple coverage, that he got away with. This guy didn't set the record for interceptions simply by longevity.
Makes you wonder how many times he did this with Favre knowing Favre would never leave a game willingly
Odd. Players used to ALWAYS go back in after "getting their bell rung." Ignorance leads to unhealthy decisions. I don't remember how strict concussion protocol was in the NFL at the time of this incident. But who wants to play in a losing game and risk brain damage for a lifetime? Ugh.
Holmgren was from the stupid be tough era
The "concussion protocol" was "Does the head coach feel that this is a serious problem." Alternatively, "Can the player stand mostly upright?"
As you said so much has changed since 2000. Brock Huard does broadcasting now. I wonder if he has ever discussed this game
I'm a big Holmgren fan and as a Niner fan I'm disappointed he was never the HC of SF. This was by far a horrible decision, but even just 22 years ago, this was standard operating procedure for most, if not all, NFL teams. If a guy was concussed but could still walk/talk and stated he wanted to go back in, he did. Also I always forget Seattle rocked these ancient looking uniforms until like 2000 or 2001. This looks like an 80s game with them wearing those bad boys.
Seahawks have some interesting jersies lol from these 80's looking ones to the 2000's blues and now the modern one with the iconic shoulders.
Holmgreen was overrated and mariucci taking over was the right decision
@@fucker661Yeah ok lmao. Blud revived two dead franchises with thempackers and seahawks and went to 3 sb’s and winning one
I remember this game. I remember some on sports radio in Seattle defending this too. On a positive note, one thing you can always count on from the hawks back then was watching Walter Jones erase the guy lined up across from him
I’m seeing a couple of people talk about what happened at Michigan in 2014, so let me set the record straight on that. Shane Morris started at quarterback against Minnesota, and was getting destroyed. He had to come out of the game, with some suspecting he had a concussion. According to the protocol at the time a player with a suspected concussion had to come out of the game and have his helmet taken away. Morris still had his helmet on the sidelines when his replacement at QB, Devin Gardner, lost his helmet on a play. Gardner had to come out of the game for at least one play due to the rules in place in College Football. Coach Brady Hoke responded by putting Morris back in the game, when he hadn’t gone through the whole protocol.
I’m a huge fan of both the Seahawks and Michigan, but these are dark spots on my fandom.
Wow...just wow. Talk about not caring about the health and safety of his quarterback knowing he had a concussion. This one goes beyond words. Just awful. Excellent video on your end. Your passion for videos like these are evident.
I just realized that after Holmgren said Kitna gave them the best chance of winning even though he knew he had a concussion, he was basically saying that a concussed player is better than the 3rd stringer they had. That is a backhanded burn if I've ever seen one.
“You left him in a football game!!!!” I thought he was going to drop an F bomb 💣 😂
This episode hits different after the whole Tua Tagoviloua situation. Definitely a huge stain on Holmgren's reputation; I can only hope there were people on Sportscenter or NFL Primetime tearing into his decision. The thought of Chris Berman or Stuart Scott calling Holmgren an idiot is the only solace I take from watching this.
And now it's repeated again on Christmas on National Television.
Jon Kitna was a good little QB and the Pride of Central Washington University, homegrown talent who fought all the odds to make it too the NFL and stuck around a while
Jon Gruden letting Chris Simms play with a ruptured spleen was far worse. That literally was a life threatening injury
The ball washing he got until recently was so cringe worthy...
All he did was win with Tony Dungy's team and now we see it's more obvious
Keyshawn Johnson told us who Gruden was from the time he became the BUCS coach to the time he retired and everyone trashed him yet keyshawn was proven right and all of them people are playing stupid and pretending they always agreed with him or other men who called Gruden out
I think JG9 made a good argument that the Seahawks at the time knew Kitna had no business being on the field, yet kept him out there anyway.
I played High school and collage football and playing with a concussion was the norm. They actually did ask what day is it? Where are you? How many fingers am I waving? Even some of the practice drills were head to head collisions, in fact, some of the hardest hits you get were during practices. Its not like it was not known, we just did not care. I would say people were more worried about blowing out a knee than taking a head shot.
College
Oh yah collages are awesome. I love a good football collage
@@cfisher2447 the hard part s finding good action photos to glue on the poster board. Come on. It was a typographical error.
This younger generation has no knowledge of how concussions were handled 20-30 and more years ago. Yeah now these events, like the one here, can be outrageous in hindsight. At the time it was actually happening it was treated like a bruise or sprain. A non event basically.
Back then concussions were generally not taken seriously. And even after the league said to take it seriously, a lot of older coaches who were used to being ignorant chose to stay ignorant.
It was a different time. In Buffalo, we used to joke that Jim Kelly didn't really get going on a given day until he has three concussions
This was during the NFL's denial period concerning concussions. The attitude among 99% of the NFL, from the players to the coaches to the League offices was that you could just "man up", power through it, and not have any issues long term. It wasn't a broken bone or anything immediately visible so it was easy to discount the real danger those players were in. Steve Young needing to retire because he was told by his doctor that one more concussion would either kill him or, as he and others said at the time, "turn him into a vegetable", was seen as an anomaly. Poor Steve was just more susceptible to concussions, the poor guy. Maybe that was true but I've got to think his head hitting the turf or colliding with a helmet strapped onto the front of a speeding locomotive in a football jersey @ 60mph played its part as well.
Now, the incident with McCoy - that's totally on Holmgren. They knew what was going on by the 2010's but there were still holdouts trying to claim that the situation was being blown out of proportion. I get your outrage on the Kitna decision but I think the McCoy decision was even worse, given what was known by then.
10:57-11:05 😡🤬🔥
I’m sorry; WHAT!!! Is right! 👍
"How many fingers am I holding up?" (holds up two fingers) "Tuesday!" "He's good!"
You can't hate these coaches as this was a part of the era. They didn't understand the magnitude of the injury. Or the long term effects.
Looking back on an event 12 years older than the breakthrough research on concussions with modern glasses is a tad ridiculous, I mean back in the 2000s and earlier men were playing through torn MCLs and broken or separated bones pretty commonly. Of course an injury that wasn't visual and often takes time to feel any kind of effect from, and mostly wasn't even known to be serious, was met with a "meh, we'll walk it off" attitude
Totally agree, like looking back and screaming that kids weren’t in car seats back in the day
Stop whining Holmgren was wrong. Even back then they knew that concussions was bad. Kitna even admitted that he couldn't remember anything out there and told Holmgren that.
Right, this was the first video of his that I disagreed with him on. I hated this video.
@@CatsClaw44 if a varying opinion based on medical understandings evolving recently is whining to you, you may be soft as fuck
@@burprobrox9134 I used to ride my bike without a helmet when I was a kid in the '80s, the SJW crowd would want me cancelled for that today.
Kitna also played with a concussion when he was with the Lions as well. So that's three. Which explains a lot if you ever heard him talk.
Ouch
Good thing the concussion protocol is in place, otherwise the rate of NFL players suffering brain injury would be far worse. 🤕
Judging by the way players as a whole act, the concussion protocol still doesn't work properly.
So, by your own admission, you can not judge 2000 by the standards of 2010. It was the NFL in which we lived in.
The problem, as noted in the video, is that even a decade later, Holmgren did the same thing when Colt McCoy got a concussion while he was coaching the Browns. So it make it seem a fair bit more reprehensible due to him not learning from it, since concussions were definitely a raised concern by 2010.
@@51Dutchman that may be so, but this guy is ranting and raving about something that happened in 2000 that literally every team did. If he wanted to do that he should've made this video about Colt Mccoy, I think that would've had his desired effect. Complaint and blaming one person for something that every team did in the 90s is crazy.
The SJW millennial crowd has a habit of judging what society was like decades ago by their twisted modern standards of "morality". WHY did people EVER think gender EXISTED in the 1960s??? *REEEEEEEEEE!!!*
@@raphael9783 *HA!!! PREACH IT, BRUTHA!!!* 🤘🤘🤘
“In which we lived” is a euphemism for “but we’ve always done it that way.” Bad theory.
No one likes those types of people at work, no one likes those types of people in socioeconomic situations, and no one likes those types of people at play.
4:27
The moment you were waiting for
Love the Rocky quote on the thumbnail though
Drago!
Funny you mention Brett Favre because despite doing the same thing, you gave Mike Sherman a free pass. Nice double standard you have going here.
Cute how you think it was Sherman’s decision.
@@chrisp679 It was Sherman's decision. He is the HEAD COACH. He actually admitted he never should have let Favre back in the game. Cute that you don't know how things work.
@@chriskay1449 it’s Brett Fucking Favre. Unless he was completely unconscious, or dead, he was going back in the game. Regardless of who the coach was.
So kindly sit down.
@@chrisp679 Wrong. If the coach tells him to sit his ass down, he sits his ass down. You seem to forget that Sherman did that exact thing after just one play. Favre sat down. You kindly sit YOUR ass down.
Back then a concussion wasn't a big deal. A player could get a concussion and be back on the field the following week. That was common place.
1999 was such an exciting year in Seattle, with what the team was able to accomplish after such a long drought of success... 2000 was a disappointing season.
I always like John Kitna... He was a goddam warrior!!!
Michigan did the same thing against Minnesota in 2014. Starting QB Shane Morris suffered a severe concussion and it was very obvious he had one. Instead of pulling him and putting in Devin Gardner, HC Brady Hoke decided to leave Morris in the game. Hoke rightfully received criticism for this move
I think Kitna also reentered a game against the Bears in 2007 with a concussion
Wasn't it Minnesota?
Hey @jaguargator9, great video! You need to do one on the Browns @ Steelers in 2011 when Colt McCoy got concussed and put back into the game please.
Mike Holmgren was one of the coaches named in the class action lawsuit where coaches were threatening to cut players from the team if they didn’t take painkillers.
I think Brady Hoke did the same thing during a game between Michigan and Minnesota. I was yelling at the television when that QB wasn't pulled.
Holmgren was an overachiever at best. He lucked into someone like Brett Favre and got so much of an ego he thought he could replicate that success with anyone.
Product of the time. Concussions were still for the most part considered nothing burgers then. Not giving holmgren a pass though; high school coaches were still playing Concust kids in the same time period. It's easy to look back in time with expanded knowledge and say "wtf?"
Concussed?
It was a different game back then
Holmgren is an old-school coach who has an emphasis on toughness, go figure.
Yet it’s funny cause you still have fans that still wanna keep that mindset and always say the league is “Wussifed”
@@345optimusprime The NFL and the NBA have gone soft with ridiculous calls by refs that sicken me.
Even though most of those penalty yards don’t mean crap during a game when you aren’t losing because of that.
Yes, players do try to get on a ref good side just to have them in their favor.
You'd think by the comments these people are Mike Holmgren's relative
They used to do this a lot years ago. That maniac Terry Bradshaw came back in a game with a concussion against the dolphins. Also against the Cowboys in super bowl 13. Troy Aikman was still feeling the effects of his in super bowl 28. They only had 1 week rest before that super bowl.
10:00 You can hear the agitation in your voice here. Getting more and more pissed off at leaving Kitna in the game.
11:00 And here is the crescendo.
Also, if you don't make a shirt that says "It was than if you spiked the ball on every play", I will be very disappointed. lol
Who else is here after what happened to Tua THREE TIMES in 2022?
This was an awful look for Holmgren. I know having Matt Lytle in there wasn't ideal, but he was the only sensible option after the Seahawks lost both Huard and Kitna to concussions. You can't have a QB out there who can't remember anything beyond the basic stuff. Thank goodness this crap wouldn't happen in the NFL today.
Also you're down what 18 anyways? In what world was Kitna is our best chance to win a defense?
New idea for video: Mike Holmgren makes Robbie Tobeck play with a stomach virus.
You missed one huge context. What was known about concussions at that time. How can you over look that but not everything else. I like your channel but this was a big drop.
Even if we account for that being in 2000, though, what was his excuse for showing the same sort of negligence in 2010 with Colt McCoy’s concussion?
@@51DutchmanI don't remember this. But even then it wasn't like it is now. I was pointing out there was no context to the time period
@@danielmackey9765 Fair enough, I can appreciate that point as a valid one. But still, the fact that Colt didn’t even get checked under Holmgren’s term as President of the Browns, in 2010, seems problematic to say the least.
@@51Dutchman I can definitely agree to that especially knowing what we know now.
@@danielmackey9765 did you play football? I doubt you didn't , I did and I don't see any former football players defending this which tells me you're so fat fan who never laced up and actually played but you're an armchair warrior
There’s video out there where Beats Mike Ditka said QB Jim McMahon was mildly concussed in the first half of a game but cleared at halftime to return to the game & he played. I believe it’s 1987-8.
He also returned to play in one game after peeing blood. He was tough!
So, all I will say about this: presentism is inappropriate. If you're judging Holmgren's actions in 2000, based on knowledge known in 2022, that's not right. Based on the time this occurred, this was common practice in the NFL. Things have changed obviously. Otherwise, generally I like your films a lot.
I remember when this happened. Even in 2000, it was a stupid thing to do. Plus, Kitna was completely ineffective after the concussion. There's no way he gave them any chance to win. He risked Kitna for nothing.
Same. To blame Holmgren in 2000 for that is nasty. Tons of players played with concussions back then. I like 99% of this guys videos, but this seems of of touch. I feel like he maybe isn't old enough to know the temperature of the nfl back then.
th-cam.com/video/2PQgMzgp8QI/w-d-xo.html
John Madden in the early '90s: "I've always thought, if a guy has a concussion, he shouldn't play anymore." And then mentions how in boxing if a guy gets KO'd, he can't fight for 30 days. "And sometimes in football, we say, 'Oh, he has a slight concussion, he'll be right back in'...I don't know if I ever agreed with that."
@@pronkb000 that's still one man's thoughtthough and inside that thought he spoke on the (at the time) prevailing standard around the nfl on concussions. So, as I said, I don't think it's fair to blame holmgren alone for the thought process of the time. I'm can nearly guarantee any of the great head coaches of the time had done it. To single Mike out is just unfair.
@@raphael9783 I really really REALLY hope this channel doesn't go woke. This video seems woke.
Missing the latest JG9 episode would be worse than if you did nothing but spike the ball on every single play.
If I want to learn more about that which video should I watch?
I don't think it's fair to blame Holmgren for that. I think it's irresponsible to demonize Holgren without acknowledging the history of how injuries were treated. On top of that, knowledge of those injuries isn't what it is now.
If he'd tried to take him out Kitna might have been angry about it. That was the culture then.
As a nearly lifelong football fan, I have to say.... HORRIBLE..... as a fan of your channel.... DUDE!! TELL US HOW YOU REALLY feel. :D Seriously though, good stuff you put up here as always.... bad coaching and yea, today, Kitna's out... period.
You're absolutely right about the decision to leave Kitna in the game, but I doubt our awareness of concussions was anywhere near the same as it is now back then.
My quibble with this is this is judging a 2000 decision based on 2022 understanding of concussions and their long-term effects. I don't know if it's as bad as going "how many fingers am I holding up?" or giving a guy smelling salts to get him back in the game, but yeah it's pretty bad by 2000 standards. By 2022 standards, Holmgren would have gotten his ass kicked by the media for that.
It was great context for you to include the bit in Cleveland about Colt McCoy. I recall he got raked through the coals for that decision, and deservedly so.
True about how this looks much worse by today’s standards.
However, it also looks bad by the standards the Seahawks showed earlier in the game when they removed their starting QB because of a concussion.
How could he be raked through the coils when Mike was the team president, not coach ? 🤔🤔🤔
@@robertlawrence4719 Remember there was a lot of media attention paid to the fact that McCoy suffered a concussion and there was a lot of talk about the Browns ignoring that.
If I remember correctly, some of the mandatory protocols went into effect right after McCoy's concussion and possibly as a result of it.
I was playing baseball in high school, and I was hit by a batted ball while running to second and knocked unconscious. I was out for about two minutes until they brought me around with smelling salt.
They immediately handed me my glove and hat and told me to take the field.
I remember none of this, because I have no memory of anything after getting hit for the rest of the night. This is how little people used to care about head injuries. They would just toss us back in without a second thought. No one knew any better
Back when men were men and we didn't have to apologize for it.
I always hated the third quarterback rule. It bit Bill Parcells and the Jets in a game when Vinny Testaverde ruptured his Achilles tendon in the 2nd quarter. Tom Tupa was the #2 QB for the game. Rick Mirer was #3 QB. They had to use Tupa because he was the Jets punter. If Mirer was used before the 4th quarter, Tupa couldn't re-enter the game in any capacity.
In fairness, I don't think the league considered the idea a Punter would be listed ahead of an actual QB. Though it's still a dumb rule because aside from endangering QBs........I'm not sure what it really could do positive......
@@Meodread Tom Tupa was a starting QB in the NFL. I think the reason why the Jets did it was to activate another player for the game. If they had two quarterbacks dressed for the game, they were allowed to dress a third quarterback who did not count toward the active list. The rule was abolished in 2011.
@@hezamachine yeah but that still being rather ridiculously silly with exploiting the rule. So I can't say I feel bad for the jets in this regard.
Though the rule remains stupid of course.
Also Tupa as far I can tell was never a starter Rick Mirer actually was albeit a bust.
@@Meodread Tupac 😆
I want you to know this about me, so that you understand where, when and HOW I grew up. Born in Seattle in 1973, where I grew up. Seahawks fan. I HATE the Raiders, Broncos, Chiefs and Chargers!! I CAN'T understand how SO many Seahawks fans do NOT hate the Raiders more. The Raiders basically ended Brock Huard's NFL career, this game. Huard was our "Golden Boy," and the Raiders physically damaged him. I will NEVER forgive the Raiders for that. THAT'S why I was SO happy to see video of Rich Gannon getting injured!! I wasn't actually watching this game when Brock Huard got the concussion. I was LONG time afraid that Huard was "lying down on the ground, unable to move," after getting the concussion. Fortunately, it looks like Huard DID get up right after it happened.
Vince Lombardi wouldn't have done that as tough as he could be at times he also had a human side.
The sports media did a very bad job with how they portrayed Vince Lombardi, when it came to injuries he didn't let them play even if they had a cold...all he wanted was for you to give it 100% in the game even if you failed , my grandpa was old enough to remember how the media said he was "too nice" and "smiled too much" and didnt "take it serious" prior to his death
@@Chuck_EL Yea I know I did plenty of studying on Lombardi the man as much as him as a coach.
It was common back then for concussed players to stay in. Not saying it was right but you can’t crush 2000 coaches using the 2022 standard.
Another more recent example is when Leftwich broke his rib during a game and Tomlin just left him in to finish the game. He took it like a champ but that was not a good moment at all.
Crazy how the Dolphins are repeating history with Tua
The same thing happened with Derrick Carr last season, he got knocked out on a QB sneak and somehow came back into the game ( I forget which game) but Gruden was still the coach
I don't think he had a concussion though.
@@Fencellisk th-cam.com/video/_6lqoVt-uvc/w-d-xo.html
Mike woke up and caught a stray bullet. I would've never know this.
Who did Mike Holmgren have in Green Bay for his quarterback and played with a ton of concussions Brett Favre so he didn't give a care about player safety about quarterbacks with concussions
The naysaying people on here would’ve looked at all the people who died of dysentery from the contaminated water supply GE polluted with chemicals and said “c’mon: leave modern sensibilities out of it.” Hear, hear JG9: Holmgren absolutely deserves the No music raked over the coals treatment for this one. Hear, friggin hear.
It's frightening how many people in the comments are defending Mike Holmgren
Brother the volume is to low
Looks suspicious when the two quarterbacks get concussed your starter and second string and all against the Oakland Raiders seems very suspicious
Hindsight's 20/20. It was 22 years ago.
11:05 - Another great T-Shirt idea
Speaking of treating a player like a piece of garbage, how about RG3's last games in Washington.. 😬😬😬
i love when this guy gets "fake enraged" lol
How do you know this?
I got a concussion playing hockey and got right back into the game no break or anything, I was seeing double for a while. Not a good decision
Brock Huard played for my high school team puyallup high school in Puyallup Washington. And Jon Kitna played for my mom's high school while she was there Lincoln high school and coached Lincoln while I played for puyallup. So I guess my point is if your from pierce county you might get a concussion
Maybe take a break from making videos that make you angry. I like the videos but some of these takes have been getting too personal.
Terrible look, especially now. But I still remember J Hostetler on camera getting smelling salts on the sideline in SB 25. Live TV.
I had a concussion in the first half of a game asked at halftime if I was good to go.. of course as a 17 year old kid I said yes coach the thought of letting my team down willed me out there and on the opening kick I get it and only remember waking up in a ambulance got knocked out cold pictures in our local paper and everything lucky for me it was only a concussion because God knows it could have been worse. But here's the crazy thing I was in the paper the next week scoring a touchdown and underneath the line was after suffering a concussion the week before he scored this week so ya I was still practicing full speed and back in my day the helmet everyone wanted was a bike. And those helmets are history because they suck you'd be better off with a riddell
You’re looking back on this with modern eyes and modern sensibilities and research. I don’t think you can do that and judge someone in good faith. Love you vids man but yeah disagree on this one.
People keep doing this with everything unfortunately.
Iv keeper on playing several times concussed stumbling around for a bit one time I finished on autopilot. And as lineman you were expected to be tough but that was the late 80s. Now concussion protocol only one of new rules I agree with.
wasn't it brock huard who got injured too?
In short ,the NFL and NFL coaches n staff really didn't care about Player Safety, AT ALL, back in those days.
"Concussion??? No, you just got your "Bell Rung". Get ur ass back out there n play!"
To this day, there are THOUSANDS of ex-NFL players, still trying to sue for Medical compensation/ benefits.
No doubt in my mind Brett will have CTE.
I keep getting playback errors?
That’s odd. Probably a TH-cam issue. Sometimes that happens to me and refreshing the page fixes it
I’ve been trying all afternoon
@@press12800 Maybe try a different browser? Not sure what the problem is
Jeez, if you told me this story without telling me who was involved or when it happened, I'd probably guess it was back in 1950s or even earlier, not in 2000! Like was said, why is there an emergency 3rd string QB on the roster if you're not going to use him in that situation?
As kind of a funny note, though, that reminds me of when I was playing one of the old NCAA football games, and I had both of the two healthy QBs I had left on my team get injured in a game. I ended up putting in a wide receiver who actually had a little bit of throwing stats for the rest of the game. It wasn't really too bad, though, because I always liked to run the option in those games anyway, lol
Mike Holmgren should have gone with the third string quarterback. No excuses for Kitna starting.
14:02 @Official JaguarGator9 C'mon, man! You're better than this! Holmgren was never the coach for the Cleveland Browns! That hit on Colt McCoy was on Pat Shurmer's watch!
This is shameful and sick...
Player safety is irrelevant to me. If you want safety play frisbee golf.
Football was different at that time it's not right but men had the Soulja life mentality
John kitna poor guy lost his job to Brock guard then he lost his job to Carson palmer
Yeah yeah blame the coach. The player is standing there saying put me back in coach.
Mike holmgren was a really good coach. He built the packers and the Seahawks
No one was talking about CTE and everything in 2000. In retrospect sure, it’s stupid. Hindsight is 20/20
That's because they didn't know about CTE until 2002 when late Pittsburgh Steeler Center Mike Webster Died and and autopsy was performed on him. Watch the 2015 Movie Concussion with Will Smith
God bless you Jon Kitna, Bengals casualty, overall good guy
too bad he suffered thru lions 0-16. at least he was put on ir midway thru it so sorry qb's like orlovsky, dante c, and henson could do their part to contribute to 0-16.
Guy was a pretty decent qb on a lot of bad teams. Big case of wrong place wrong time for him, bless him indeed
Seattle needs to go back to these uniforms
Say the line, Bart. 4:26
Now I have heard everything. Leaving your concussed QB on the field is the worst thing a coach has ever done. Why isn't he fired afterward? That is bad as trading away your franchise QB who has done much for the city of Seattle. If he knew Colt McCoy was concussed when he was with the Browns president, why didn't he know about the concussions from Kitna and Favre as a coach? I think you should lay in on the current Seahawks front office for the abysmal offseason trade.
It makes me sick when fans who think that football was so much better in the 70s and 80s argue that by saying quarterbacks are so much better protected now. And they are not as tough as they used to be. What a crock.
Quarterbacks are the highest paid players in football. That is a fact.
Quarterback is the most important position in football there is no question about that.
Quarterbacks are more responsible for the quality and entertainment value of the football game than any other player on the field.
When the starting quarterback or number one quarterback gets injured, most of the time the quality of the game suffers. Which is bad for everybody. Especially the fans that pay the exorbitant prices to watch the games in person.
Even in today’s football quarterbacks to get hit and they do get hurt. In 2018, Alex Smith almost died from an infection as a result of a shattered tibia and Fibia that occurred in a football game.
And when the defensive lineman is called for roughing the quarterback, that is not protecting the quarterback the quarterback still got hit.
The bottom line is that pro football is far better today than it ever has been. And they could make a few more rule changes not related to the roughness of the game to make it even better.l