ADHD, IQ, and Giftedness
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 มิ.ย. 2023
- ADHD, IQ, and Giftedness
In this commentary I address several widely stated claims in the trade media that people with ADHD are of higher intelligence, that they are more likely to be gifted in IQ, as well as the statement that gifted individuals are more likely to have ADHD because they are bored or unchallenged in school (or work). This commentary debunks these misconceptions based on hundreds of studies of IQ in ADHD as well as studies of gifted individuals who do and do not have ADHD, among other research. People with ADHD span the entire range of IQ as manifeste in the general population. But, on average, there is a small but significant negative correlation between severity of ADHD and IQ, being about -.30 or so. In other words, on average, large groups of people with ADHD tend to be about 7-10 points lower in their range of intelligence than do typical control groups. Some of that difference seems to be due to poor test taking behavior. Some to the adverse effect of ADHD on executive functioning that is involved as well in IQ testing, and some may be due to a greater likelihood of brain injury among some people with ADHD. I also discuss the reverse notion, that those who are gifted are more likely to have ADHD. I find no evidence for this claim and indeed evidence against it. Gifted individuals may be somewhat less likely to have ADHD and when they have it the symptoms may be somewhat less severe. So I find no support for these various claims about ADHD, IQ, and giftedness.
Links to references in the video are here:
link.springer.com/article/10....
gifted.tki.org.nz/assets/Uplo...
I think it's highly likely (to the point of being obvious) that the reduced severity of ADHD symptoms seen in gifted people is just a reflection of their ability to compensate. I don't believe the condition itself changes with higher intelligence, it's just that smarter people find more workarounds. Gifted people with ADHD are more likely to be diagnosed later, and it would make sense that they are under-diagnosed generally, due to flying under the radar in schools and managing to muddle their way through, while performing well below their capabilities.
This is exactly it. I was identified as highly gifted as a youth, and diagnosed with Combined Type ADHD at 44. I developed workarounds, and many times just flat out refused to do whatever it was I was being asked to do that I didn't "feel" like doing.
I agree! I just submitted a PhD earlier this year and was only diagnosed last year with ADHD at 38 years old. Without actually having done an IQ test, my Psychiatrist thinks I'm highly intelligent just for being able to do all the things I've done in my life not knowing I have ADHD (and having done most of a PhD without being diagnosed). And to be honest, I have always really f*cking struggled my whole life. My ADHD makes life really hard, but I think I must be gifted to have firstly completed a law degree (despite hating law), then changing careers to pursue a career in Psychology. I got a first class Honours in my Honours degree to then get into the PhD in Clinical Psychology, and I'm now currently studying a Master of Clinical Psychology, which is really difficult to get into. But I know I struggle more than my peers, and struggling with ADHD causes so much anxiety. Even though I have achieved what I have in my education and career, the day to day stuff is difficult, like making sure I eat properly and cleaning up, etc.
This. Some of the smartest folks on the spectrum or with ADD I know have struggled to mask so well to include me. What angers me most is when people see me masking and think its impossible for me to be Autistic or have other issues...no I just adapted to survive.
Absolutely
I was diagnosed ADHD at 29, and I was always a gifted kid, and did pretty well in school. I graduated highschool with an associate's degree with honors, and I never really had to study that hard. However, I struggled to stay organized, and I would forget or put off assignments a lot.
When I really started to have trouble with school was in university, because the classes were much more challenging and required much more executive function to succeed. I barely graduated with my bachelors degree.
I wonder at times what would have happened if I was diagnosed as a child, or got help as a teen. I wonder if college would have been more successful.
But I agree with the majority, the twice exceptional are very often overlioked because our giftedness makes it harder for people to identify our symptoms, because when they look at my report card, they see my efforts despite my ADHD.
The method by which I was diagnosed with ADHD was by taking several task-based tests that measured my executive functioning, plus an IQ test, plus a questionnaire that ruled out other disorders. I scored a 148 on the IQ test, but my task scores were generally average or slightly below. This justified an ADHD diagnosis because there was a huge mismatch between my ability to think and my ability to do things.
In other words, I can function roughly as well as your average neurotypical person... because my intelligence is three standard deviations above the norm. That's what it takes to "make up for" my ADHD.
Does it actually make up for it? No. I'm absurdly good at some things and absurdly bad at others. I'll make a beautiful, elegant spreadsheet with all kinds of clever formulas to outline a budget along with any kind of financial goal-setting I could ever want... but I won't actually track my expenses or follow the budget. It's a miracle that I remember to pay most of my bills on time.
I have the same brain, thank heavens i medicate it and use self management techniques otherwise i would not be able to utilize my IQ at all.
Relate. Despite higher IQ - 132 - ADHD is exhausting to deal with day to day
@@sunshinelively IE spend half the day masking it so the other half of the day you look like you're a smart person who has their shit together?
@@neptronix exactly. Getting older, running out of gas. Diagnosed recently at age 59. It is a trip.
@@sunshinelively ..i say find something that tickles your neurons correctly and do your best anyway.
I'm a freshly graduated doctor with an IQ of 140+. I always thought there was something wrong with me. While in med school I couldn't study if it wasn't 2,3 days before final exam. Passed all 5 years by studying a day before exam lol. Doesn't matter how much I tried I would always end up reading about other stuff(mostly history anthropology etc). My parents thought I'm just being super lazy. I just got diagnosed with ADHD and all of it makes so much more sense to me now
It’s amazing to be forced by an insatiable interest to study things you don’t know yet, but it’s frustrating when trying to do what anyone asks you to do because there is very little overlap.
@@jordanweimer788 exactly 💯
Haha,I Have ADHD Too Brother! (And Assalamualaikum Btw)
@@muhammadumariftikhar8003ADHD combined with a high IQ is extremely rare. What very often happens, is that high IQ is misdiagnosed as ADHD. In my opinion what happened to you, is that you simply didn't need more time for the studying and you subconsciously knew it. You must likely have a very wide interests range, therefore you read all the other stuff. If you look at it objectively, you were just amazingly efficient. Don't worry about it and just accept that your brain works differently. I have the same, although I'm more in the 130+ range and not 140+. See this as a superpower, let your brains do the work for you and don't force it. There is no need to force your brain into the "average" way of working, because that's simply not how you are.
Spirit is talking to you. Not in words. Mainstream medicine is not a good path. Just a wing of big pharma...
The significant missing component that he’s somehow overlooked is that the higher IQ gifted people who weren’t diagnosed with ADHD didn’t get included in the studies to see if ADHD is related to giftedness.
I suspect the tests screened participants for the presence of ADHD. I think we need to know more about the specifics of the methodologies used in each of these studies. Maybe he addressed that, but with my ADHD, ahhh I'm really not sure. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
They probably did because the study (if it's any good) probably has a control group and both groups were probably screened for ADHD symptoms and IQ and then cross referenced
Population bias
Very unlikely that they overlooked this in their methodology.
That's almost always accounted for in these studies. The data is weighted or the methods themselves take into account people who aren't diagnosed. There's probably a screening test at the beginning.
I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until I was 19 and I self diagnosed and then went in to get a formal diagnosis at my University Health center. They did an IQ test and were incredibly surprised because I had one of the worst cases of ADHD they had measured and one of the highest IQs they had measured.
I will say though, I would easily trade 15-20 IQ points to get rid of my ADHD. It is the most disabling thing I deal with in my life. Later on, I have now also been informally diagnosed as Autistic by my psychiatrist.
I don't think ADHD is correlated with IQ, but I do think there is perhaps an under diagnosis of high-IQ individuals because they are able to compensate and hide it for longer before showing they are disabled.
I will say that my brain seems to work more creatively and at its peak when I am unmedicated. I have more "Eureka!" moments essentially. However, I am less capable to follow through on that and be a productive member of a capitalist society unmedicated.
Loved this comment. That's exactly how it feels been in both boxes...
Was coming here to echo the same thing. I do suspect that there in an under diagnosis of people with high iqs who have built in compensatory mechanisms rather than seeking a diagnosis.
@@musuyanguba4226 Please don't spread medical misinformation.
>high IQ
>throws the word "capitalism" into things unnecessarily
hmmm
@@RelentlessBoater If you want my politics, I am an Anarcho-Syndicalist like Noam Chomsky. And there is no questioning he has one of the highest IQs of anyone alive right now.
The only relation that makes sense is that if you are highly intelligent it is easier to mask your symptoms and act "normal" for the longest period and then nobody understands why you have trouble handling your PhD, your family and your work, if you are so intelligent... Guess what? is even a miracle I got to grad school!
I feel that you called me out. I am in tenth year of PhD.
Studying economics in the toughest university of my country literally crippled me.
At the last year of my studies, I got into a major depression and I decided not to go with a higher education unless I am extremely passionate about it or I know for sure that it will enable me to make good amount of money.
it's been 10 years since my graduation, I couldn't have a career, still trying to "DECIDE" what's good for me. I always had a thing for languages, so I decided to learn German exactly 2 years ago, I've got to almost C1 level, but despite my solid academic background I am doomed to act as a call center agent, because whoever sees on my CV that I jumped from job to job, doesn't take me seriously.
So thank you adhd, for destroying my life.
I relate to this. I’m in a very demanding graduate program and feel like an outsider
It was a miracle I graduated HS!
@@zanngocI believe you can change your circumstances, I hope you keep trying. It won’t be easy, but I believe you can do it!
There's been a recent surge in diagnosis of adhd. It's a better understood condition now, which means a lot of adults get the diagnosis later in life. This could play a role in the IQ results. With a whole group of people with less obvious symptoms missing from the test groups. Especially since there was also a correlation between less severe symptoms and gifted individuals, you could speculate that people with higher IQs are more likely to not get diagnosed, and therefor not be counted in the study.
Yup.
Exactly. I feel like this guy is trying to prove something and he doesn't see the holes in his own logic. I am 42 and just recently realized I am ADHD and used my giftedness to mask it my whole life. I'm exactly the person who would not have been counted as having both in those studies.
@@shiny_x3Me too.
Exactly!! The higher IQ gifted people who weren’t diagnosed with ADHD didn’t get included in the studies.
Also, I'm assuming obsessive technology consumption-driven pseudo ADHD is now a thing, which probably gets quite a few people misdiagnosed...
I fell in the gifted range in school but never got good grades. I knew the info but could never get my act together turning work in & not losing things. My long term organization is so bad it's contageous. I've had a significant positive impact on every job I've had but often got fired for being late. I would happily trade 1/3 my iq to be able consistently do the basics.
Same. What people don’t realize is that executive function issues have cascading effects because they can so undermine someone’s confidence, and unconfident, jaded people of any intellect are particularly effective thinkers.
I have to wonder how these numbers would stack up if every diagnosable person with ADHD were diagnosed. I can't help but wonder if an individual with both ADHD and a high I.Q. would be more likely to fall through the cracks of diagnosis than someone with a low I.Q., especially if they presented as inattentive in childhood. That would skew the numbers towards lower I.Q. in people with ADHD.
I agree 100%. I was diagnosed at 38. When I did IQ tests when younger my scores ranged from 134-154. My general results in early education meant I was labeled curious, imaginative, and a daydreamer - not distracted and/or hyper-focused.
I think I would sum up your post by saying there's likely a positive correlation between an increase in IQ and an increase in symptom masking or perception of symptoms from others that results in non-diagnosis
I'd love to see a study that could compare the early-age IQ scores of those with an early diagnosis of ADHD against the early-age IQ scores of those with a later-in-life diagnosis of ADHD.
Yes, I agree. I wasn't diagnosed until my early 40's, so my school age IQ tests would've been counted in the normal cohort. I definitely fell through the cracks, even though I was obviously dysfunctional. I believe at the time there was a strong bias against the idea that highly intelligent people could have learning disabilities.
So, I was failing school, despite being openly bright, curious, and intellectually engaged. I wasn't able to do homework because I was too disorganised (and eventually avoidant), and I wouldn't read long texts because I'm a slow reader (due to having to re-read everything multiple times, because I lose focus every 2 or 3 lines). I got by through absorbing everything verbally and visually in class. I didn't stand out as especially intelligent at my first high school, as it was a somewhat prestigious selective school where everyone was gifted. In that environment falling behind was what made you stand out. The school wasn't interested in supporting disabilities and was actually hostile to anyone that wasn't going to maintain their image through academic achievement. I was labelled lazy by everyone, bullied by students and teachers, and I ended up very depressed and smoking a lot of pot.
I was referred to a "youth centre" run by a local hospital at age 16 for counselling. There I was given an IQ test by a psychologist. My scores in every section of the test were right at the top of the chart, except for two sections which were at the average level, and one that was slightly above average (final score was 150). It was obvious to me that something was wrong and that such a distribution wasn't normal, but because my significantly reduced functioning in certain areas fell in the "normal range", they just shrugged it off. Nothing ever came of it. I may have "scored normal" in those areas, but I still couldn't function normally. My guess is that, as the individual tests only require a few minutes of focus I was able to brute force my way to a normal score, but a longer test would've given worse results.
I left the selective school at the end of that year and transferred to a local, regular high school. They even had a special stream for people with (more profound) learning disabilities, but they too didn't like the idea of obviously smart people (I stood out at this school) claiming to have difficulties. The teachers there called me lazy too. They too believed that an intelligent person unable to perform must suffer from a moral failing, not a disability. The refused to let me sit the final exam because I hadn't handed in all my assignments, so I never graduated high school. I've tried undertaking education a few times as an adult (I was accepted into a university on the strength of a personal statement), but anything vaguely academic I wasn't able to complete, despite being fully capable of learning and understanding the material. It has only been more practical courses, where all the learning and assessment happens in class, that I did well in. I haven't attempted it again since my diagnosis and starting treatment, but I realise now that I learn just fine. I just struggle to jump through the assessment hoops that educational institutions demand because they don't match my strengths. If they assessed my learning in the ways I can best demonstrate it, I would do well.
Sorry for the rambling post, I don't blame anyone who doesn't read it. I just see a lot of comments from smart people saying they skated through on sheer talent, and not much from the people who were severely impacted enough that even with a high IQ they couldn't get through school.
@@MichaelCavano I would like to see that study too. I think it would level things.
@@jananclowes351Standard deviations of 3 between the “knowledge/thinking” parts and the Executive Function parts of those tests, in the range from normal to hitting the test ceiling, seem to indicate giftedness + ADHD and really need to become widely recognised for this. I’ve seen it so many times now, and still, like you, these young people get no help because everything is at least normal, or just under at worst but not enough to pull the total test score below 140 (on the WISC with a ceiling of 145). And this in a world that’s busy digging its own grave and desperately needs wildly creative thinkers to help figure out if we still have a chance to clean up the mess we’ve made of this planet.
I was diagnosed gifted in 3rd grade with a Genius IQ, then at 40, i was diagnosed ADHD. Now at 42 I'm talking to people about Autism too.
I bet your genius comes from asd
Gifted part-time in 1st & 2nd grade, full-time 3rd grade onward. (IQ unknown, but had to be 135+.) Got diagnosed with ASD + ADHD at 41.
Many of the videos I watch talking about ASD and/or ADHD management/coping strategies end up being things I had figured out the hard way over the last three decades.
I got diagnosed with ADHD 3 years ago & got 125+ an IQ test, it made sense of all the struggles I had, where I am high achieving academically, perfectionist, interested in many things but find difficulty focusing on things that bore me or face burn out. I’m starting my masters in information technology management so I began to learn more about ways I can channel this in a conductive way.
I just recently started taking my mental health seriously at the age of 30, my whole life has been basically of story of, "you have so much potential, but don't use it". Always made me feel like I wasn't trying hard enough. Finally decided I need to do something about it and got treatment for my ADHD, Now being more open to my condition, I started learning more, and hearing other's stories. I finally came across the term 2e(twice exceptional) and realized that this narrowed my life experiences even more, which compelled me to take an IQ test. I score an average of 138, and now most of my life is starting to make sense, along with no longer feeling so alone, as I'm now part of so many groups and pages that are full of other people that actually understand, can relate, and won't disregard my problems with a "try harder". As if I wouldn't if I actually could.
Cold showers and meditation helps me as well
Thank-you for debunking this. I was never comfortable with the whole ADHD superpower nonsense.
ADHD a pain in the ass. All the worst parts about myself that I have been trying to change all my life without success were largely due to the ADHD. Being diagnosed was a relief, but I'm not happy to have it. Just trying to learn my times tables in elementary school or formulas in high school was a nightmare which affected my math abilities to this day. Trying to work numbers in my head is like trying to grab smoke. Nevermind the the profound effect it had on my childhood relationships and the lifelong damage that caused which effect my relationships and mental heath even to today .
No. It's not a superpower. Talk like that makes it harder to be taken seriously. It might be comforting to some but I would rather focus on how I managed to be successful DESPITE the ADHD using the strategies I developed to compensate before I ever knew there was any problem, besides me being shitty at stuff.
Thank-you so much for all the hard work you do to bring awareness to the world. It's very much appreciated. Heck I only got diagnosed after watching one of your lectures which youtube seemed to think I needed to watch, which is a bit scary but best not to pull on that thread.
I have almost the same experience as you with math. My friend tutored me into math 75 from math 25 when I started college in my late 20's. While explaining a video game mechanic to that friend, and why one choice would be better than the other, he exclaimed "YOU JUST DID CALCULUS OUT LOUD YOU PR!CK." I can't math, but I can intuitively invent some portion of calculus. Superpower? I dunno, but it sure isn't nothing.
I totally relate especially with the math thing
I went through a battery of IQ tests in the early 70s. Looking back, I can see how my ADHD skewed the testing. The psychologist who tested me and my siblings said my parents' divorce lowered our IQs. I find this topic undetermined until I see meta-analyses.
If you're traumatised by it, and your parents were often on your mind or some aspect of how your life was then, It possibly was interfering with your ability to focus...
"IQ-test taking could be part of the problem" lol, indeed. When we all had to take an IQ test before attending secondary school, there was a 15-minute break in between and I played and ran around in this very exciting and huge new school building that had an elevator! I somehow ended up in the basement and couldn't find my way back to where the testing was. Somehow I managed to find the classroom of my older sister and she brought me back. But I missed half of the test at this point and handed it in extremely unfinished. The irony.
Just goes to show how important it was for YOU to take that IQ test...
@@keithmurray5791because, as we know, curiousity and wonder are definitely negatively correlative with intelligence 😅
@@gaugea probably would have had the highest score there..
Ugh, I hated those tests! Hey kid, we are going to pull you out of your normal routine, put you into an unfamiliar place with tons of new stimuli and expect you to sit still while you answer a bunch of questions that will determine your academic future. Minutes in and I was just as lost inside of my own head as you were in that school.
Hahahaaaa 😂 this is why I love ADHD, I laughed alot to my actions as well 🤪 also so creative, breath-taking, humorous, problem solving, social, fast, distracted by boring stuff and extra focused on interesting projects. hyper focused, philosophical, enjoying the little things and talking all day, I Love It ❤️
I managed to get myself through high school, later went to university, didn't manage to finish university but I also never really did attempt to study... Got diagnosed with ADHD at age 36.
Turns out I have an IQ of 136 😅 Which would explain my lack of need to study, but I just barely scraped by too though to be fair.
This is my story too and the story of so many gifted kids with ADHD.
135IQ and diagnosed at 36
@@luciethart brothers in struggle! 😅
Very familiar story. In my case, I didn’t develop serious study habits until college, but even then they were rife with procrastination. They were enough to get the degree, at least :P I was also lucky enough to have been diagnosed younger, and started taking meds in college.
@@FlaminPigz7 If I had had meds, I would absolutely have been able to study. That shit is so good it's criminal... Wait...
Psychedelics are just an exceptional mental health breakthrough. It's quite fascinating how effective they are against depression and anxiety. Saved my life.
Can you help with the reliable source I would really appreciate it. Many people talk about mushrooms and psychedelics but nobody talks about where to get them. Very hard to get a reliable source here in Australia. Really need!
Yes, dr.sporesss. I have the same experience with anxiety, depression, PTSD and addiction and Mushrooms definitely made a huge huge difference to why am clean today.
Is he on instagram?
Yes he is. dr.sporesss
Microdosing helped me get out of the pit of my worst depressive episode, a three year long episode, enough to start working on my mental health.
I took an IQ test when I was at pretty much my lowest mental function in my entire life. It was part of an overall psychological assessment I requested when things really went off the rails. Even at that point my scores were eyebrow raising high. It was very very helpful to have the info. The range of scores in different areas really helped me to understand my difficulties, despite being a supposed genius in others. Kind of a world class sprinter with his shoes tied together sort of thing. It convinced me to finally spend the real time it takes to find the right medication and get true treatments in my life.
Nice! Althought I wish I was gifted I just have adhd and asd without the higher than normal iq to compensate, wish I wasnt conditioned to have such a strong frank sense of self then not being extroardinarily intelligance wouldnt be a problem. Altgought with higher IQ comes more loneliness maybe, yet I have that without being gifted lol. I have so much persononal satisfaction to loose by wanting to be something Im not.
@@nicbarth3838 just SAY you have an off the charts iq; that's all these other commenters are doing.
Just want to thank you Dr. Barkley for taking the time to make these videos. They are very helpful for those of us busy with our clinical practices to make sure we are keeping up to date. Especially since your Guilford newsletter was discontinued.
I hope you also listen to the ADHD community and the idea of not seeing it as a disorder but as a neurotype. And the social model of disability.
Be careful relying on "experts", too many have a habit of getting into silo thinking i.e they fail to see or admit that their view may be proven incorrect. People like Russell Barkley and Gabor Mate have considerable knowledge but some of us with ASD and ADHD (2e) have a love hate relationship with their views. The greatest message that several of us took away from a graduate level course was "always be sceptical", some will not admit they were wrong or not publicly admit they goofed in some research or managed to get a poor research paper past peer review.
@@chriscohlmeyer4735you can’t compare Dr Barkley with Gabor Mate. Mate is spreading misinformation all over, Barley is not doing that. You can agree or disagree with his personal opinion but here he’s sharing articles based on science.
I really want to know more about how ADHD severity is determined. If the only measure that can be tested is in terms of visible symptoms and negative outcomes, a slightly lower IQ would make sense. Others mentioned it but intelligence can allow for masking. For example, someone who is extremely distractible but because of quick wit they can fill in the blanks and infer what they missed. Wouldn't a truer test of severity be the raw distractibility/executive function impairment as opposed to how much you get found out making mistakes? Also, there are plenty of social differences that come with being ADHD and gifted that would not show up in the research studies covered here. For example higher expectations and even more questioning of effort and intention "Well you are obviously smart enough so you must just be lazy".
Not saying anything to disagree with Dr. Barkley, just adding some nuance.
Thanks for the video! This made me think a lot of the IQ testing I got during my ADHD assessment.
Afterwards, when I received my diagnosis and the psychologist got to discussing that part, she told me that she felt that it reflected strengths that may have allowed me to compensate at times in my life. I was late diagnosed at age 52 last fall.
I don't know if I would qualify as also being 'gifted'. At times I certainly don't feel that way, even though I sometimes identify with things associated with that. I'm not sure if she was implying that, and I don't think she would have wanted to guess.
During the IQ testing, I had a lot a trouble concentrating and focusing on the tests. So much so, that she apparently noticed and asked me if I'd like to do them another day. I informed her that it was normal for me with tests like these and waiting for another day would probably only delay my overall assessment.
My results were what she described as a 'spiky IQ profile'. Despite my difficulties in concentration, I scored in the 96th percentile for verbal reasoning, and in the 97th percentile for non-verbal/spatial and one of the sub-tests for the latter was in the 99th percentile. However, my 'processing speed' results were 'low-average' and my 'working memory' results were 'poor' (noticeably below the norm or average).
She identified my working memory results in particular with my diagnosis, stating that it may be a part of what she found in the results. So, in that regard and in my case it would indeed seem that my ADHD did bring down my overall IQ testng results.
Very interesting. I'm still waiting for a chance to get diagnosed, and have never taken a supervised IQ test. But I've done a few of the semi-accurate ones here and there over the years, and it seems I'm probably around 120. That is with all cognitive skills combined, my performance crashes when processing speed or working memory are heavily weighted. I did the public MENSA screener test, they seem to value processing speed above all and I tested at 100. Personally, this just tells me that IQ doesn't seem to be a particularly useful tool for anything besides bragging rights. I've noticed this "spiky profile" already as a young school kid, my reasoning was apparently great but I would do very poorly with time-sensitive tasks. Explains a lot in hindsight. Thanks for sharing your story!
Delayed processing and poor working memory can be related to cptsd, autism, or injury. I'm AuDhd, delayed processing, poor working memory, interoception, lexithymia, etc. I was this many (45) years old when I learned that
@@Thilosophocl3sInteresting...
A few people (3 to be precise) had asked me over a few years (before I got diagnosed) if I might be on the spectrum. Even a previous psychologist who referred me to the specialist had said, "Maybe also ask about an assessment for ASD, too...? Just in case..." But the specialist, when I saw her, felt pretty sure I wasn't also autistic and encouraged me to not invest the money (that she could have charged me) for a second assessment. I guess it was the number of symptoms that I had that overlap with the diagnostic criteria for ASD. But the specialist who assessed me felt it could all be explained by an ADHD diagnosis.
It's interesting sometimes, though... Sometimes... When some autistic individuals describe some of their experiences it sounds so familiar to me and a lot like my experiences. Again, maybe it's the big overlap of symptoms between the two diagnoses but I often find it a topic of interest for me.
I was sent to another psychologist because of some things I had described from my past during my ADHD assessment. That other psychologist said that she believed I had had some kind of subtle CPTSD, but she believed that I had somehow "worked through it" over the course of my lifetime and it didn't seem to require any further help at this point in my life.
Otherwise, it turns out I was wrong about my guess about what the specialist who assessed me thought regarding 'giftedness'. I had to consult with her for recommendations for workplace accommodations recently and the topic somehow came up. She told me, "No, you're gifted." OK.... I guess. I find it still feels kind of 'blurry' for me how people do or don't define that.
I am a highly gifted adult as well as ADHD and the struggle is real. To sum it up, giftedness compensates for all the shortcomings ADHD brings along.
In short, I need people to work on my ideas, to do the implementation, while I am focused on the strategic and innovative concepts. I struggle really hard to implement them myself. Ideally this is a work symbiosis.
Your video on time perception helped me a lot to work on this.
Steve Jobs, is that you? ;)
Am I the only one thinking 7-9 points of IQ is not a small difference?
If the average IQ is in the 120 range, it’s less than 10%. If it’s less than 10%, its not insignificant, but other things have a much bigger impact, such as the zip code you were raised in
@@francisturney2938 Good point.
@@arentak2773 I think he is also talking about it as a statistical measure on a population level. In one individual it could mean a world of difference, but if you look at an entrire bell curve distribution the difference my not be as dramatic. And like francis was pointing out, other factors, such as socioeconomic status, education, and upbringing, can also play a substantial role in shaping an individual's opportunities and outcomes.
As a child I was never been able to escape the fact that homework and tests were useless. I just couldn't care. I cared that my mother would be mad later if I did not perform, but when compared to days and months of homework? I'd still take a slap and no dinner over that.
The combination of ADHD and being gifted does imho present a unique set of challenges. As positive as giftedness might be, and as much it might be used for masking and compensating ADHD by brute force computational power, it might also lead to especially severe problems. For instance: Chosing an occupation that is interesting, challenging and self fullfilling, is even more important for people with ADHD than for those without. But it might be darn near impossible or at least very difficult. A lot of those professions require years of studies planning persistence aso. And often also quite narrow focus. A clear problem when the aptitude for achieving long term goals is minimal, but the curiosity for scattering focus over a vast array of topics is endless 🤷.
A massive thank you to Dr Russel Barkley, for all immensely valuable contributions. The material that you so graciously have shared on TH-cam, has made a massive difference to me personaly, and I would guess, to countless others as well❣️🙏💐
I have a gifted child. She taught herself to read at 4, she has the vocabulary that rivals that of most graduate students, she intuitively understands algebra and in first grade is solving algebraic equations with multiple unknown variables, she's taking a coding class and from the onset she understood how to code even though before her first class she'd never even heard the term coding before but it just makes sense to her.
I'm above average intelligence and burnt out when I was a kid like many high ability kids do.
Had a 760 on the math portion of the SATs and I was hungover and had no prep.
Im doing my very best to steer her from the path I walked as a child
I just want to say thank you for what you do. I have a combined presentation, and one of the things the psychiatrist referred me to, in terms of evidence-based psychoeducation, was your content.
Good psychiatrist!
@@s.m.4948 Yes, indeed. I am very grateful for him, and this content is immensely valuable.
Thanks! I think getting educated about ADHD is the first and most important step in treatment. I am so glad you found my channel.
Thanks to you i start at the age of 60 to have a better consciousness . Nothing compared to neuro typicals though . I feel my intelligence applies to different dominions respect an iq test intelligence . I have an insatiable curiosity about lots of subjects but I have dyscalculia .
Appreciate the rich literature brought to the table. I have a few guesses regarding the data.
1. Adhd affect learning negatively and it may be difficult to control in studies
2. Researches may be influenced by selection biases as normally it's poor performing children and adults who gets sent for a diagnosis.
3. Adhds novelty seeking behavior may result in adhd individuals knowing a wide variety of subjects which can be interpreted as smart but doesn't reflect on iq tests
Self-diagnosed myself in my mid-30s. Went to a psychiatrist, had my IQ measured across the board. Ended up in the 2nd-5th percentile in all areas apart from whatever test was measuring the working memory, where I dropped to the 50th percentile. Technically, still *average*, but a massive decrease from all other abilities, which was another proof of my diagnosis according to the psychiatrist. I hid my disorder fairly well, even got really decent grades in university (mostly because from year 3 on it was really interesting stuff across the board). Filled out an ADHD screening test once without any issues because self-reporting is biased. I simply did not know I had more problems starting and finishing tasks than everyone else. I just assumed everyone was struggling the same and/or I was simply lazy
what kind of tests did they administer?
@@ClaysonWoodIt was mostly a lot of tests measuring IQ (logical thinking in the first place), maths, history, language abilities, but also stuff like listening to a long, contrived story and then retelling it with as many details as you remember right after and, one more time, after 20-30 minutes or so (this is where I bombed badly). Also, a bunch of questionnaires that both I and my partner filled out covering the whole life from childhood. Someone else's perspective is crucial to them so that they don't rely on just your word and their observations. These days, I think, in some of the fancier places they can even put you in an MRT machine and see how your brain responds to boring or hard tasks and make further conclusions from that. I didn't do it because I thought it would be overkill (and it costs a lot more, I believe)
@@Limemill i should get tested too. Daily life is a struggle not going to lie.
@@ClaysonWoodGo for it. I got prescribed stimulant medication, but for me it doesn't get you that much more focused (it does a bit, but not crazy much). What it does for me though is it improves my emotional life by a large margin. As in, either I don't get emotionally triggered at all in situations where I otherwise would or, at the very least, I have a gap between the instinctive knee-jerk reaction and what I output in the world. I then have the ability to observe the reaction and realize that I'm about to overreact and that immediately puts it to bed somehow. Anyway, this is not quite what I expected, but is admittedly very helpful
I think ADHD is absolutely the greatest give and the biggest curse.
❤
I liken hyperfocus to telepathy.
It would be very useful (and maybe even fun) to read other people's thoughts, right? Now suppose you couldn't stop reading other people's thoughts, and can't control whose thoughts you were reading. Doesn't sound so useful or fun anymore, now does it?
Hyperfocus is great, except for not being able to control what you're focusing on.
Similarly, with ASD, attention to detail and noticing patterns can be really useful, but there's no off switch. There's a lot of noise in addition to the signal, plus you can't stop noticing all the little flaws and inconsistencies that nobody else pays attention to. It's maddening, in both meanings of the word (angry and crazy).
I wish educators knew sixty years what they know today.
I was a poor student , and assumed I was just dumb. My parents got me a tutor , one on one, and my marks soared.
As a teen I saw a psychologist to find out why. The results showed very high iQ.
Sixty years later, and retired from a demanding stressful career, I have not changed.
I cannot learn in a classroom environment. I can’t pay attention.
I have few if any skills my friends have, and simply cannot focus.
I think it also contributed to my marriage failure. Living with a partner with add is frustrating.
ADD is a curse, but God has saved me, and I have an excellent retired life.
I had pyloric stenosis when born I did not eat for six weeks after birth until surgery.
I suspect that may have contributed
Excellent video.
I think it’s too hard to tell because most of the time somebody with ADHD might not just have ADHD. I have taken many IQ tests, before medication and when I was younger I scored somewhere around 118. I had no idea how much my ADHD was disabling me until I was medicated for it at the age of 24. I have taken more IQ tests recently and most of them are around 135-140. The thing is, I’m not sure if I just have ADHD sometimes I also feel like my brain is just completely different than everybody else is. I’m in the process of trying to figure out if I might also have ASD. And it looks pretty likely that I just have both. Knowing this about myself, it’s been hard because when I was younger I truly believed I was unintelligent. But I had so many questions, I still have so many questions. I think that’s why I even do well on IQ tests. I’m really good at paying attention to small details it’s just some thing that my brain does and I enjoy the process of that. But I’m absolutely garbage when it comes to talking to people. It’s some thing I had to try very hard at. I just think that our brains are very strange. As you probably have guessed I am not the best with writing and grammar. But I’m really good with special awareness skills and building blueprints as well as 3-D building on the computer. I feel like the reason why I have done well on IQ tests recently is because I just use the skills very often. If you were to measure my social intelligence though I would rate really low. I don’t have very good social skills.
Definitely ASD. My son was lining up objects since a baby! You should get an assessment for your peace of mind. I suspect I may be too as I used to walk on my toes as a kid. And I hate clothing that is itchy.
I found a similar thing. 118 before meds. 138 after meds. Biggest difference was I wasn't as distracted taking the tests.
Throughout this video i was struck by questions around how these studies accounted for comorbidities. In particular with autism spectrum, since we know up to like 80% of those with asd, and ~50% of those with ADHD have both asd and autism, or AuDHD. I know you've made at least one video discussing AuDHD and your career really focused on ADHD but as someone with both my lived experience is really one where picking apart what is distinctly one or the other is impossible. So when i learn about studies like this in particular, I'm so curious if the researchers accounted for how comorbidities might be impacting participants responses.
my one problem with russle is he views adhd as something apart from autism because he only looks at the affects of adhd symtoms and recomends pills but those pills harmed every other aspect of my life and retarded my maturty and imunie system
When it comes to Ritalin it’s up to the parent to make sure the child takes the pills on time, stays hydrated and nourished, sleeps at the right time and is social but the parent is statistically likley to be autistic/adhd and noticing the skills needed to fully attend to their child and give them that “internal pot of gold”
Love this channel! Very helpful and interesting information. Keep up the good work!
Thanks for this. I thought a lot of my characteristics from the "giftedness" list actually came from me having ADHD, but now I understand that they're probably DESPITE the ADHD. Very interesting.
Great content, I think a video going in-depth on past medications (and why they aren't used) or ones awaiting FDA approval for ADHD would be interesting. I'm sure that some of the releasing agents discovered over the years have more favorable releasing profiles than amphetamine and methylphenidate, no? For a disability as common as ADHD you really would think there would be as many novel medications as other dopaminergic dysregulations like parkinsons.
A great review of the existing research, thanks as ever for your insight. :). I echo the hypotheses of a lot of my peers in these comments regarding the underdiagnosis of gifted individuals with ADHD, and how that may skew data.
I was determined to be gifted in 2nd grade after an IQ test that scored me above 130. I then was not diagnosed until age 22 despite, in retrospect, showing an extremely classic case of ADHD as it presents in girls from a very young age. To my knowledge I was never screened for it. This type of anecdote is so common that it's a joke in ADHD peer groups. I was extremely bright, very motivated to learn, consumed books ravenously, and showed strong leadership abilities. I just couldn't do my homework and being bored was physically painful.
By necessity this is all anecdote, but my parents recall being given resources after I was classed as gifted and moved to that class. These resources listed common symptoms of ADHD and Autism (executive dysfuncion, poor punctuality, sensory issues, deviant behavior) and assured them that they were very normal for gifted kids. It has been years and I'm only one case, and I'm relying on the words of people who didn't believe in ADHD for years anyway, but if this was common practice for any amount of time I would expect it to have a strong discouraging effect on parents seeking diagnosis at a time where there was already a strong stigma. This would have occurred for me in the mid to late 2000s.
If indeed these kids in gifted programs were missed and continue to be missed, a purely IQ data driven analysis will not suffice to discover definitively whether there is a connection. I would be interested to see clinical research that explores this in more detail.
I appreciate your acknowledgement of other factors beyond general intelligence swaying the IQ score, as we all know what an imperfect beast it is. Thank you again for all your work :)
I pretty much second this. This describes my life too well. Took my first IQ test at the age of 13 in which i scored 145, but i wasnt diagnosed with ADHD untill age 25.
Also, because people sometimes dont realize this trap, the more you test your IQs guys the better you will get at taking the test. You're not getting smarter, you are mastering the specific logic puzzles they are asking you about.
Hi Dr. Barkley, I just stumbled across your channel and it's a treasure trove of knowledge.
I would be interested in hearing you muse about IQ as a measurement. My understanding is that it's not very useful when going "above average" or beyond 100. In addition, I've heard that it's gathered quite a lot of baggage regarding eugenics and other adjacent ideologies.
Considering that, it's interesting to me that it still seems to be our primary standard for measuring intelligence.
A possibility of this conflation is that gifted people with ADHD historically have tended to flock to academia because in theory you'd get more freedom and interesting problems to deal with, whereas neurotypical gifted people would just go make a boatload of money in finance or somewhere else and aren't considered as smart by society. This in my opinion is how the stereotype of the "absent-minded professor" developed. Einstein had ADHD, which made him a smart but a bad student, to the point that none of his professors accepted to recommend him for grad school. Many many academia stars were neurodivergent and/or mentally ill. This, in my opinion, led to romanticizing some disabilities and therefore trivializing them.
Very informative. Thank you for making it bite-sized (although I still had to play on 2x speed 😅). I'm just below the gifted population in IQ and have ADHD. Many pieces of the characteristics list fit, but many do not. When I'm interested and engaged, I absorb information extremely fast and am very self-motivated. Unfortunately this does not often align with the things I need to do.
On a separate note, Taking Charge of Adult ADHD has been tremendously helpful in helping me learn about the disorder, which has helped me explain it to others (including my parents) while dispelling the many myths surrounding it. It's helped me become more compassionate towards myself regarding my poor high school performance despite having a high IQ.
I love the assesement of multiple arguments, I would also be curious to see if they compared both positive and negative attributes seperately of gifted children, and then compared those with similar for adhd symptoms. I know there would be some variability in how teachers etc. interpret the attributes of adhd students as opposed to just their flat DSM criteria, and that with gifted children the distinguishing attributes would be mostly positive in regards to performance, where adhd symptoms are typically measured by their dysfunction.
I tested above the 3rd standard deviation throughout my life. It was isolating to grow up like that bc everyone expected so much more of me and didn't want to hear about any struggles... then I got diagnosed at 41 w/ ADHD, after watching your 2012 lecture on ADHD being an executive function disorder. Life changing.. I feel like I was clearly understood for the first time and received the toolkit I was looking for my while life.
Meds + Mary Selanto's CBT + externalizing everything = victory. Thanks doc!
When I was a kid, I was in gifted classes at first. I read at a college level in grade school. And it wasn't till middle and high school that I struggled. And my main struggles were doing homework on time, getting projects done on time, forgetting textbooks/calculators/tools for specific classes or losing them outright, trouble memorizing boring strings of information; such as dates, room numbers, phone numbers or basic and dull lists of facts, and zoning out in class instead of doing my work. I mostly had trouble with something if I found it boring/uninteresting. And if there was a component of getting work done over a course of time, I would always do it last minute. When I had enough adrenalin in my system to start the car engine of the task.
I have never found a subject that I am curious about to be challanging. And I have always learned anything I am interested in at an accelerated pace. My friends are often shocked at how quickly I pick up a new skill and even outpace them in things they are good at. (Most recently, I became quite skilled at crochet.) And I have to remind them that I'm not the norm when it comes to learning. That there is nothing wrong with them. And I have to remind them what portions of the skills I attained came from their instruction.
Once I have my vast list of mental illness under control, I will be unstopable. Also, I am bad at spelling. But that's mostly because I don't really care and just use spell check on anything important.
I hypothesize that the smarter an adhd'er is, the more that the diagnosis gets missed. I wasn't diagnosed until my son was being evaluated.
When I was teaching 8th grade I prepped and practice tested my students to prepare for the standardized tests. I'd already been taking a lot of practice tests myself to qualify for teaching other subjects. What I clearly noticed in my own test taking was about 10% errors. I knew the answer was B I intended to bubble in B, but somehow I bubbled in C. (The practice test B was circled, but the answer sheet C was bubbled in.) This was very consistent. I have ADHD, but I also always did very well on standardized tests (Of course I wondered what if I'd done 10% better?) So I set out to help my students avoid making this mistake. One problem. They weren't making this mistake. I don't think even one student was making this same error. It was just me. When I've noticed ADHD symptoms in my students usually they had terrible academic skills, were usually failing. Do I think ADHD negatively affects IQ scores? Apparently it does but I think the deficit is still in attention not in general intelligence. In fact I think the opposite is true. ADHD seems to speed up thinking, you seek novelty. Here's a test. That teacher who doesn't like me because I'm annoying so I can never do better than a C? Here's my chance to show them.
So whatever deficit Dr Barkley is talking about I think he's missing the point. I may know something, but because of my ADHD I might have trouble applying that knowledge or ability. That will lower my score, but that's not intelligence that's execution. Of course that goes into determining IQ. The remediation will of course be different from what's needed for a student who does have a lower IQ. And whatever basic intelligence maybe, being the 'smart kid' or the 'talented kid' ends by about age 12. After that it is work in, benefit out. If you're a smarty pants in elementary school, by the time you're in the 7th grade if you do not start studying and practicing, you're not going very far.
Having been certified to teach Gifted, etc, working with these children. Sure they are often thought of as being hyperactive. A first grade HG teacher I worked with said her first task with every student was peeling them off the wall and getting them to sit in the chair. One of her students, sweetest kid in the world, she had a meeting the mom. "I had to send N out of class today..." Mom starts crying. What's wrong? "Where is she going to go to school now?? Oh she would never be kicked out of school.... "She was kicked out of kindergarten, that's how she wound up here." Something else with HG kids. They seem to go through a morbid period. The adults and shrink were really worried about an HG child close to me. "He's talking about death." That's not normal in a 5 year old. Then I remembered. Oh. Yeah it is. I wouldn't trade ADHD for anything. I always feel like I'm off task, but then I look back and I've done all these amazing things.
I was a smart and gifted kid, until longer projects became a thing. I was undiagnosed and everyone thought I was lazy. I just couldn't do it
Delaying long projects with a high degree of self-study till the very last day while having anxiety throughout the whole period and not knowing what to do were the bane of my existence in high school >,
@@zainmushtaq4347 continuing to work on an already finished project instead of moving on to one of the 60 unfinished ones because brain 240p
I’d be more interested in evaluation than diagnosis rate. Being perceived as possibly having ADHD. It would also be clinically significant to determine the average age of evaluation/diagnosis for gifted vs non gifted. The lack of severity of symptoms along with other factors gives credence to the idea that students who are gifted can use their high IQ to compensate for some of the difficulties ADHD causes.
Lol, "just like us" and "just like the rest of us" makes me laugh. I know you don't mean a single thing negative by it, and I think it's the most accurate and clearly understood wording to make the point, but it really makes me want to laugh at myself in a healthy way, like, "Oh well, it is what it is, so might as well laugh and not be upset by it." (I love your sincerity and the way you discuss adhd with such dignity for us who have it. You are an advocate for those with adhd, and our lives are so much better directly because of your work and dedication to the subject. Thank you!)
a part of ADHD is like trying to get a camera to focus, buuuuuuut once you get the frame in focus it only stays in focus for a couple minutes then its a battle to get it back in focus while its pulling the focus away. truly a challenge in all factors of life. In school its even worse, you start to fall behind because you cant get the frame in focus even tho you try so hard. This is from the persepective without being medicated, i tried adderall senior year of highschool but i didnt get a resupply once it ran out. Im in college rn for Cybersecurity and this is the biggest challenge ive ever faced. IDK where to find help. ive talked to my school for accommodations but all my classes use a website ran by another private company so i cannot get any help. mental torture
Thank you for all your work, we are very fortunate that you decided to post these videos. I'm curious about the bell curve of ADHD being shifted to the left of the IQ distribution, suggesting that ADHD is slightly less common as IQ increases. Could it be that people with higher IQ are less impaired by ADHD because they are more able to compensate, therefore they don't seek diagnosis as readily as those with lower IQ? Meaning that if we could correct for undiagnosed ADHD in high IQ individuals, the distributions would be closer to identical? Are there studies that show ADHD is more likely to be undiagnosed in high IQ individuals?
in my clinical experience I think that could be the case for some highly intelligent adults. they find ways to compensate on their own which reduces some impairments and makes it less urgent to seek a diagnosis. but I haven’t seen research in the issue. try using Google Scholar to search the journals for those terms. thanks!
@@russellbarkleyphd2023 Hi, I guess I do fall into this category. I got tested and got into Mensa. Even though the group is a scam. I never had to study till I started uni, even then it was 2-3 days before exams. IQ came about 145 st 16 about 137 ish. I do think I found ways to compensate I believe. I still suffer with horrible sleeping patterns though.
@@russellbarkleyphd2023 We need to take into account the parents' cooperation as well. Some parents neglect there is an issue because the child is apparently performing in line with expectations (usually with some disciplinary pressure). Children and adolescents may even be explicitly asking for support, but if parents are not on board to get them assessed, it won't happen.
"Squeaky wheel gets the grease", and gifted children are not squeaky enough. We see this in families where other siblings get diagnosed, but the gifted one is not even assessed. "They're fine," the parents think. Those of us who lived it know we were never fine.
I got both, and while in elementary school I used to go to a gifted kids school for one day a week. Recalling memories from there, and of the gifted kids class I was in from age 12 to graduation, I definitely notice in the gifted environments a higher rate of characteristics in my peers that make my mind go to ADHD and its defining points, and I know many from the gifted programs who are diagnosed with it and/or autism and really aren't the type to "follow trends" for the fun of it. So while the science makes sense, it definitely doesn't line up with my experience.
One possible way to explain it is that schools are generally too demanding of all students to sit still and focus for extended periods of time, and in the gifted programs the teachers weren't as strict and allowed everyone more running around, missing of deadlines and impatience out of a lack of worry for our futures, since we were "gifted and therefore bound to succeed anyway" (which, by the way, isn't that clear at all). So the teachers relaxed and allowed us to be kids a whole lot more than they would in a regular class, where worries about not finishing school properly give rise to more discipline.
As for me, I got diagnosed while I was in elementary school. My attention span didn't last for a fraction of the lesson, but it was enough to finish the assigment. As to not waste energy, I learned to tune out during the explanation and only do things while there was an assignment, figuring it out as I go, and everyone thought I was only smart, until the whole sitting still part got me so agitated by the end of the schoolday that I'd lash out at people and get into fistfights over the smallest of things because I couldn't stand the tension buildup by the end of the day (and got shouted at for sprinting from one end of the school to the other while on break. Also no ball games allowed! bruh). I remember the teachers mega-confused, like, how is it that this straight A kid is getting sent home for punching someone the second time this week
I think if we're particularly harshly lectured about our lack of conscientiousness and are told how much better life would be if we "just applied ourselves" that we might fixate on an academic subject for a time in order to overcompensate. I participated in an ADHD IQ evaluation done by grad students and although I tested into the gifted range on the actual IQ test, I also self-reported struggling with activities of daily living, relationships, and having to spend hours more in study time than my neurotypical peers.
Dr Russell, please can you make some amount of footage, even if just a short clip talking about what to do for loved ones of a person with adhd who doesnt believe they have it and is in denial about their symptoms, or are having trouble accepting the idea that they should investigate it, or only think they are benefited by their adhd and not regarding the ways in which it impairs them? Thanks so much and I dont know where we'd be without your work, research and lectures and education. Thank you for all you do.
It is certainly a problem in many families, and was so in my own with my late twin brother. But the topic would need more than just 10-15 minutes. I cover this issue in detail in my book, When an Adult You Love has ADHD. See if your library has it. I will give some thought to how to perhaps structure a series of videos on it. Be well. And thanks for viewing.
@@russellbarkleyphd2023 thank you so much!
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge!!!!
I would say, I have some very strong sides, where I not actually completely understand myself, how my brain is able to do that.
And I also have very bad sides, where I literally have no clue of how to solve a task. There's actually just a dark empty space, where thoughts, images and plans show up
After years of searching and observing many ADHD individuals and other diagnoses, I agree with what you said. The first paper you mentioned about gifted people with ADHD is the perfect description of what I have been struggling with for my entire life. Not fully ADHD nor fully Gifted. I'm also assuming this is the same category as "Twice Exceptional" or "2e". ADHD individuals do differ from ADHD-Gifted individuals.
I wish there would be more care for the "2e" category because my struggles are almost as similar as both ADHD and Gifted individuals.
Psychiatrists don't acknowledge "2e" because the symptoms are not as intense as ADHD patients. Yet I am so tired of being half-opposites, which apply to the pros and cons. It's socially and mentally draining! If anyone thinks just because "2e" individuals have managed to mask their way through life make them similar to normal individuals, they're wrong.
Thank you very much, Dr. Barkley for all your videos! I’m learning a lot
I agree with Dr. Barkley; as one commenter below said, I'm also a medical doctor considered "gifted".
I agree that my giftedness has been balancing my adhd and has allowed me to pursue high level of education.
That being said, the mental toll to not drop out is tremendous and although the symptoms are reduced by giftedness, they show up massively during stressful moments and burn-out becomes almost habitual.
Diagnosis and medication is overall a relief.
I did a Wais-test in September, as part of a neuropsychiatric evaluation. I had a fever and am on a part time sick leave for burnout. I scored high on the verbal parts, but very low on some of the logic parts. I feel so stupid afterwards. But i really can't figure out the symbol/patterns. It's like my mind go totally blank. I never does well on tests where there is a time limit. And I ended up crying during the test out of stress and the feeling of being stupid. = as the evaluation showed I do have severe ADHD, and have struggled through my whole life (47 now).
But in school I liked some of the more difficult parts of math (second grade equations) but never the ones involving triangles and stuff. I also have a bachelor's degree, with excellent grades in some courses and just above average in some.
I heard my whole life "you're so bright/intelligent- you're just not trying hard enough". Teachers got frustrated with me after seeing me excel at something and then failing miserably. I could never explain what happend or why I suddenly didnt understand some simple thing. I always believed I had a brain injurie. The psychologist who conducted the neuropsychiatric evaluation actually said my results were so bad she believed I had a brain injury 😢 But a brain scan showed no brain damage.
Now I'm trying to understand if I am stupid or if the test doesn't mesaure my giftedness accurately. (I've been told through my life by people that I'm unusually high in logic and very smart. In Uni the teachers often said my questions were too advanced and that I had to go to higher levels to get answers to them. So people always said I was intelligent= when people wasnt asking me "are you stupid?!" after I did something dumb, that is.. 🙈🙄
I suspect there is a distorting effect whereby the most vocal ADHD self-advocates are more likely to be gifted and that gives an impression that those of us with ADHD are generally. There was a similar phenomenon when it was thought during the earlier days of increased recognition of autism that autistic children were more likely to be born to gifted parents. Eventually it was realised that it was the gifted or otherwise better equipped parents who were the ones most able to navigate the system and get a diagnosis and hopefully support for their child, and unfortunately many others were (likely still are) being denied this.
My dx at 40-ish was like a comedy skit. The doc told me stuff to remember for later while we were in his nearly silent office. Note: his office which meant I didn't have to monitor what was going on outside the room. Then I took a bunch of tests in the same environment.
His exact words when we sat down to discuss results were, "How long have you been off ritalin and WHO IS GOD'S NAME TOLD YOU THAT WAS A GOOD IDEA?!?!?!!!!!😱🤬😱🤬😱"
My 32oz cup of coffee and I responded, "Off??? I've never been 'on'." The doc face-palmed and said "Well, that pretty much explains everything. Are you a Star Trek person?" I nod. "You have no deflector shields. None. Zilch. Zero. Zip. Nada"
At about the same time I found out I have basically every vision disorder involving the eyes working together to give 3D.
So between the two I use my Mensa IQ just to get through the day. I'm thrilled beyond words.
How do you explain a very high IQ with a struggle to motivate oneself to study? They also had learning difficulties in school where their giftedness wasn't obvious. They don't believe they meet the criteria for adhd but they do struggle with organisation skills, ( Its something they worked on growing up) They didn't have hyperactivity or focus issues at school but they struggle with focus when they try to study.
I test as a creative genius in the 130s. I would have happily traded some IQ points for an earlier ADHD diagnosis.
I used my big brain to mask/compensate and so only finally got diagnosed at 38 yrs old. It was a relief for me, gave me more self-compassion for the things I have previously been ashamed to admit I have difficulty with (that less intelligent people seem to find easy).
It's frustrating to be smart and not able to focus and use my skills to do more good in the world. I have a hard time finishing anything or keeping a job :(
Being recently medicated, seems to help me with focus, but not on focusing on the RIGHT things, lol
Thank You For This. This Channel Is Amazing.
Are prenatal brain injuries that could lead to ADHD noticeable when the accident occurs? I'm curious in part because I have ADHD and my mother took a fall while pregnant, but we both seemed to be fine.
What do you mean gifted?
I know that most of us adhders are unimaginably creative.
And tend to have special interests or talents that most other people don't have.
But I also figured like you said that IQ is kind of meaningless considering that we can't take tests well.
To sum up the video entirely: Intelligence and ADHD are not correlated
Is there any studies you recommend on the quality of the professionals doing the diagnosis of people? I find it very interesting that out of nowhere everyone has adhd now.
i think there is also a correlation between chasing random patterns with improperly defined questions in iq tests, and in life, that is some tests like random matrix tests and sequence tests and so on, are often explained as having actual correct answers, and they simply don't. it measures a persons ability to find a simple pattern and to guess what the tester wants to hear. some of these matrix tests if you tried to apply rigor to them should have no definable answer to distinguish the options. this kind of blind pattern seeking is mostly what human ingenuity revolves around, but it also misses the more subtle analytical ability that is paramount in solving difficult real world problems in a real way, and not just a superficial way by fitting a pattern with no well motivated justification for it. a good example is the tendency of some academics to define their way to answers pretty much blindly, leading sometimes to very flawed arguments that work within a small novel system of reasoning they invented without really noticing. this is why the super high iq tests are basically not worth the paper they are written on, they measure the ability to spot a patter, which is for sure a part of what constitutes intelligence, but i would trust hard maths problems much more than most of these types of question sets.
My observation is that those who have ADHD and learn or work in such a way that the brain is stimulated, there is a possibility for increased intelligence in such a way that reduced executive functions and low capacity of working memory are compensated by intelligence. I would make an analogy with the Motorola 68008 processor which had a 32 bit internal architecture with an 8 bit data bus to the outside.
I'd like to hear your explain something about the possibility of adhd people having a higher eq instead of iq. Are there any claims to be made about that?
I'm 50+ years old physician,finished high school age 16, medical school age 22 (back in my country), been practicing medicine for 30 +'years back home and here is US, found that I have ADHD just few years ago when my 3rd child was diagnosed, knew my second one has moderate ADHD ( He got Phd in chemestry), I was never medicated.
I never consider myself nothing special. My IQ is above 125, and all my kids have ADHD are above 125 according to standardized testing. Have all these researchers, including you, consider that current data is based on outcomes from "products" of an education model that set neuro atypical individuals for failure.
Thank you for the commentary Mr. Barkley. 🙂
Hi Dr. Barkley. I'd love to know your thoughts on the relatively normal to above-average performance of gifted w/adhd individuals on tests of working memory such as digit span and letter-number sequencing. These people still suffer impairment thought to be associated with poor working memory and yet demonstrate the capacity to do well on tests of working memory relative to their 'average-IQ' kin. Are the working memory deficits situation-specific?
I have ADHD (middle-aged diagnosis), but have an IQ measured in the 99th percentile. Having said that, I've always struggled academically, but mostly from an inability to focus / work, not from lack of comprehension. Makes me wonder what my IQ would have been / what I might have been able to accomplish if not for the ADHD...
... also, those lists of the characteristics of gifted people; 3 of them, Learning, Creative Thinking and Self-Determination match up with me well, but the Motivational and Social Leadership traits are virtually the opposite of who I am, lol!
How much does early childhood socialization contribute to intelligence and ADHD diagnoses? Do some children have exposure to certain experiences that influence their thinking process? How much is nature versus nurture? If a child has intelligent parents, is it the genes or is it modeling behaviors of their parents?
I was diagnosed at 43. I was gifted creatively and in sports so sort of slipped through life and got educated up to masters level. However I still can't keep my bedroom tidy or remember to brush my teeth everyday. I've also lost my phone AGAIN today. I am having a rough old time with perimenopause and the ADHD is pretty bad now. I struggle to do very basic things. I'm not medicated. I wish I could get some decent treatment but the NHS ADHD service isn't very responsive and I keep losing weight due to severe anxiety and stress.
Thank you so much for this video Sir 🤗
Dr Barkley - you mention that the average IQ for someone with ADHD is ~9% lower than non-ADHD. Do you know if this number accounts for potential selection bias? In that high-IQ individuals with ADHD may be less likely to actually get a formal diagnosis due to an increased ability to "self-manage" the condition through high-level coping strategies and systems? If this were to happen, I'm assuming it would push the average down as the "outliers" on the high-end of the curve for ADHD may not be being represented due to their relative under-diagnosis.
Speaking as a personal anecdote, I hit an IQ score of >135, and I wasn't diagnosed until my late 20's as I'd basically been able to "push through" the condition on raw IQ alone until that point. My Fiance' is in exactly the same boat.
Just a correction first, I said 7-9 points, not percentage, is the difference. The many follow up studies of children, such as my own, and studies of adults with ADHD seem to show that higher IQ is protective mainly from early adverse academic problems and later academic related outcomes but is not a factor in nonacademic domains of life such as driving, managing money, interpersonal relations, etc. so, yes, higher IQ In people might get further into childhood or adolescence before being referred as school is the major domain of functioning though hardly the only one. Studies of high IQ adults show that in adulthood they are as impaired as their typical IQ contemporaries with ADHD. Be well.
If ADHD interferes with test taking, would someone whose learning has been impacted for years by their untreated ADHD not be negatively affected by it even if they take an IQ test while medicated for said ADHD?
Another thing to consider is the formed opinion of others about ADHD people when they are not diagnosed with ADHD. If you like geometry and you have ADHD and you are good at that because you see it as puzzle/game. The others will be more likely to believe that you are gifted in geometry.. And the ADHD person will believe it also. Considering his Disefficienies in other subjects..
I score very high in IQ tests when given more time, is time an intelligence factor? with a bit more time I reach high score, but with less time my IQ drops, anyone know how that works?
I was diagnosed at 21, started treatment at 22. Basically, I only really went after the diagnosis because I was failing college.
I grew up before ADHD was recognized by most people. So the fact that I spaced out most of fourth grade just earned me a C in conduct. I tested gifted snd did pretty well in school, but as an adult in the working world I found it very hard to apply my intelligence. I don’t know if my ADHD got worse or the increased demands of adult life proved too difficult for my intelligence to work around.
I do wonder if higher intelligence compensates for some of the symptoms and thus they go undiagnosed more often. In other words: Are individuals with lower IQ more likely to be diagnosed, explaining some of the remaining difference?
I would say my IQ is probably lower than average, but I'm able to out-think many people I've encountered in so many different ways. Not just in complex problem solving and imagining novel solutions to things, but also just having a clearer insight into all kinds of systems and processes. I'm not sure what it means, if anything, but I feel IQ tests don't seem to capture (or value) any of these capacities.
I find it a bit curious that all the people claiming that it is only "masking" and that people with ADHD and a high IQ don't get tested.
Yet we see extremely many posts comments these same people who gladly reports their IQ in combination with their ADHD!
They are probably more likely to take a test (knowing they are gifted) and also to write about the great IQ they have here. I mean they are factually both diagnosed and (purportedly) have high IQ.
They still fall into the range of people with ADHD (as said in the video), just the very small portions of the upper range. It may look like they are more common (to them) with all the anecdotal evidence of high IQ and there may be some strong bias going on here on their side!
My IQ isn't really spectacular (around 80th percentile, I believe [which is around 111-113]) so it has been hard to cope with academic deadlines but, I end up being interested in academic related interests, regardless. Then again, I should also make it clear that I have GAD and suffered a huge loss in my working memory after suffering several panic attacks that lead to me having chronic Depersonalisation-Derealisation Disorder for like nearly a year -- even now, I suffer from some of the side-effects that lead me to dissociate.
There used to be a time when I would fare better with turning in a task within the last minute but, that ability has significantly declined over the past 5-6 years. This warranted in me getting an ADHD evaluation: I was also recommended to get an ASD evaluation since my GAD seems to be highly characterising my mental health profile.
For the record, I'm 24 years old and currently very close to getting my Bachelor's degree in a hard-STEM field -- and aim to go to graduate school afterwards. In spite of having difficulties with paying attention and orienting with executing tasks efficiently, my interests always end up falling under categories that are considered to be conventionally difficult.
Explains why i got above most of my class when i prepared 30 minutes before exam and get higth score when i felt school was too boring and my attendance was low😮my teacher always told only if you attended the classes you would get great points❤❤❤
Untreated and undiagnosed I was measured at around a 130+ IQ in my early teens. Once I had been diagnosed, the severity of my ADHD was noted to be quite substantial (though it's inattentive in nature), and was placed on the maximum dosage. I've only recently started taking medication for it again (several years later), and once again have been put on the maximum dosage.
Are ADHD symptoms truly less severe for gifted individuals or does it appear that way because they are better at finding coping mechanisms?
I'd say the latter. High IQ can compensate for executive function deficits in school, but when it comes to career and the day to day "adulting", it can be just as severe.
I know it's anecdotal, but I know many people who got diagnosed as adults after developing additional mental health issues over the years, with quite severe ADHD symptoms, and most of the WAIS scores in the superb range.
Could a lower rate of diagnosis among the more intelligent people who have ADHD be affecting these results in a significant way? Or what if the opposite is happening, maybe there is a higher rate of misdiagnosis used to explain other issues involving lower intelligence. Do you think it's possible that if ADHD diagnosis was more accurate in the population that there might be no difference in intelligence at all with the non ADHD population? Or may e even that there actually is a higher intelligence?
I was never diagnosed with ADHD as a child. I was labeled a "creative genius" who was only doing badly in school because she was bored. I suppose it's an effort to be supportive in self esteem... "you aren't dumb your just too smart." Maybe people mean well when they say this, but I don't think it's very helpful and it doesn't seem very authentic. It feels more patronizing to me. I have been smarter than average for 49 years, but how much smarter could I have been if people had not written me off and actually helped me find ways to manage my symptoms?
Do these studies even account somehow for factors such as the ADHD person (especially untreated/unmanaged/unmeducated) simply not being there, not focusing, not being "in the zone" or interested in the IQ test itself? It's baffling to me that no one speaks of these aspects more. I know I damn well score much less than usual when I'm in the middle of a depressive episode (for example).
All in all, IQ tests are a joke and I'm shocked it hasn't been deprecated yet.
I suspect gifted individuals are better at overcoming diagnostic deficits and are less likely to be diagnosed because of their giftedness. That means they arent accounted for in these statistical studies. That would drag the bell curve upward a few points at least.
I mean i was forcinly taken to get an IQ tests, because the primcipal wanted to remove me. I got undefined, too high to test. A bunch of random administrators who I has never seen before randomly showed up and my dad who was never off work, shows up in the middle of the day, incredibky traumatic.
The header on the first page says misdignosis. I whacked my head as a kid ~2 years old. Have an exclamation mark scar on my forehead. I think I had ADHD before this tho, and running around the house until I smacked my head on the corner of a bookshelf was a consequence. I am curious how accurate any of this information is though as I think 90% of people diagnosed with adhd don’t actually have adhd. They often just tell their doctors, talk to a psychologist, or just fill out a single sheet of paper with their perceived symptoms and may get relatives to answer questions for them as well. I had to do 3.5 days of around 4-5 hours of testing to get diagnosed. Apparently adhd is also related to autism, which seems to correlate with a higher rate of extremely gifted individuals, although over the whole data set of people with autism they may not be more gifted than others either. Also, I wonder if adhd has been separated from ADD in studies like this. I haven’t heard much about ADD in the last few years so I’m not sure if they bundled them together or what but I feel like if they’re bundled together that may skew the results, as ADD would present as not focusing on anything, while ADHD is more like a focus on absolutely everything so you can’t concentrate on any single thing, which is better for abstract reasoning and problem solving, which would give higher potential for those with ADHD to be potentially highly gifted. I’m not looking to think of myself as special, I’m more so wondering why I’m smart and if it has anything to do with this type of hyper-awareness. I’m top in many classes doing an honours specialization in astrophysics while doing a major in computer science at the same time and I feel like a few people in my life that have a higher probability of having adhd were also extremely smart. I also have OCD. I think there are similar genes related to OCD, ADHD, Autism and Tourette’s based on my personal experience, which isn’t very valid, but I’ve monitored external variables as well that seem like this may be plausible.
Based on the vast and well studied evidence I have accumulated, known as *My Life,* my insight on this is that having ADHD leans somewhat to being *differently* intelligent. The reasons for this are both inherent (brain has unusual function/structure) and situational (neurotypical based education and opportunities are a poorer fit, so those who are recognized as "gifted" more likely succeeded in less typical ways.)
Mind you I am also autistic, which always complicates these things and counts as a less universal experience. But given how common ADHD and autism are comorbid it isn't that much less.
i from the time when we used the term, "Asperger's". What are your thoughts on Autistic spectrum with high functioning in one area, but very low in others?
another thing that people dont take into account when doing this research is how the person grew up. did they have parents that helped them set up a routine that helps with adhd. for me i had no one so im learning how to do everything on my own all at the same time while attending college. i just wanna sleep all day. but i have a goal that i will not give up on no matter how hard it is. its too hard most of the time, besides when im high lol also THC helps but doesnt at the same time. learn who you are, learn where u fail and adapt to it. boutta pull an all nighter to finish two cybersecurity labs 😅😭😭😭
Excellent video Dr, thank you for sharing these thoughts. I sorta-believed this "twice exceptional" theory, and I believe it a bit less now. One thing I'm curious about: we know for a fact that certain genes that increase the risk for autism also seem to increase IQ. Considering autism and ADHD share much of their genetic profile, is it possible that this explains the phenomenon partially?
Is "IQ" really normally distributed? Somehow I doubt it. Practically nothing is distributed exactly like the Bell curve. Even the often quoted "height of humans by gender" is only approximately normally distributed.
I doubt that we can even assume IQ distribution looks like an exact Gaussian Bell Curve.
Therefore there might be no significant deviation of ADHD IQ vs all population.