I think it's highly likely (to the point of being obvious) that the reduced severity of ADHD symptoms seen in gifted people is just a reflection of their ability to compensate. I don't believe the condition itself changes with higher intelligence, it's just that smarter people find more workarounds. Gifted people with ADHD are more likely to be diagnosed later, and it would make sense that they are under-diagnosed generally, due to flying under the radar in schools and managing to muddle their way through, while performing well below their capabilities.
This is exactly it. I was identified as highly gifted as a youth, and diagnosed with Combined Type ADHD at 44. I developed workarounds, and many times just flat out refused to do whatever it was I was being asked to do that I didn't "feel" like doing.
I agree! I just submitted a PhD earlier this year and was only diagnosed last year with ADHD at 38 years old. Without actually having done an IQ test, my Psychiatrist thinks I'm highly intelligent just for being able to do all the things I've done in my life not knowing I have ADHD (and having done most of a PhD without being diagnosed). And to be honest, I have always really f*cking struggled my whole life. My ADHD makes life really hard, but I think I must be gifted to have firstly completed a law degree (despite hating law), then changing careers to pursue a career in Psychology. I got a first class Honours in my Honours degree to then get into the PhD in Clinical Psychology, and I'm now currently studying a Master of Clinical Psychology, which is really difficult to get into. But I know I struggle more than my peers, and struggling with ADHD causes so much anxiety. Even though I have achieved what I have in my education and career, the day to day stuff is difficult, like making sure I eat properly and cleaning up, etc.
This. Some of the smartest folks on the spectrum or with ADD I know have struggled to mask so well to include me. What angers me most is when people see me masking and think its impossible for me to be Autistic or have other issues...no I just adapted to survive.
I was diagnosed ADHD at 29, and I was always a gifted kid, and did pretty well in school. I graduated highschool with an associate's degree with honors, and I never really had to study that hard. However, I struggled to stay organized, and I would forget or put off assignments a lot. When I really started to have trouble with school was in university, because the classes were much more challenging and required much more executive function to succeed. I barely graduated with my bachelors degree. I wonder at times what would have happened if I was diagnosed as a child, or got help as a teen. I wonder if college would have been more successful. But I agree with the majority, the twice exceptional are very often overlioked because our giftedness makes it harder for people to identify our symptoms, because when they look at my report card, they see my efforts despite my ADHD.
I'm a freshly graduated doctor with an IQ of 140+. I always thought there was something wrong with me. While in med school I couldn't study if it wasn't 2,3 days before final exam. Passed all 5 years by studying a day before exam lol. Doesn't matter how much I tried I would always end up reading about other stuff(mostly history anthropology etc). My parents thought I'm just being super lazy. I just got diagnosed with ADHD and all of it makes so much more sense to me now
It’s amazing to be forced by an insatiable interest to study things you don’t know yet, but it’s frustrating when trying to do what anyone asks you to do because there is very little overlap.
@@muhammadumariftikhar8003ADHD combined with a high IQ is extremely rare. What very often happens, is that high IQ is misdiagnosed as ADHD. In my opinion what happened to you, is that you simply didn't need more time for the studying and you subconsciously knew it. You must likely have a very wide interests range, therefore you read all the other stuff. If you look at it objectively, you were just amazingly efficient. Don't worry about it and just accept that your brain works differently. I have the same, although I'm more in the 130+ range and not 140+. See this as a superpower, let your brains do the work for you and don't force it. There is no need to force your brain into the "average" way of working, because that's simply not how you are.
The method by which I was diagnosed with ADHD was by taking several task-based tests that measured my executive functioning, plus an IQ test, plus a questionnaire that ruled out other disorders. I scored a 148 on the IQ test, but my task scores were generally average or slightly below. This justified an ADHD diagnosis because there was a huge mismatch between my ability to think and my ability to do things. In other words, I can function roughly as well as your average neurotypical person... because my intelligence is three standard deviations above the norm. That's what it takes to "make up for" my ADHD. Does it actually make up for it? No. I'm absurdly good at some things and absurdly bad at others. I'll make a beautiful, elegant spreadsheet with all kinds of clever formulas to outline a budget along with any kind of financial goal-setting I could ever want... but I won't actually track my expenses or follow the budget. It's a miracle that I remember to pay most of my bills on time.
I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until I was 19 and I self diagnosed and then went in to get a formal diagnosis at my University Health center. They did an IQ test and were incredibly surprised because I had one of the worst cases of ADHD they had measured and one of the highest IQs they had measured. I will say though, I would easily trade 15-20 IQ points to get rid of my ADHD. It is the most disabling thing I deal with in my life. Later on, I have now also been informally diagnosed as Autistic by my psychiatrist. I don't think ADHD is correlated with IQ, but I do think there is perhaps an under diagnosis of high-IQ individuals because they are able to compensate and hide it for longer before showing they are disabled. I will say that my brain seems to work more creatively and at its peak when I am unmedicated. I have more "Eureka!" moments essentially. However, I am less capable to follow through on that and be a productive member of a capitalist society unmedicated.
Was coming here to echo the same thing. I do suspect that there in an under diagnosis of people with high iqs who have built in compensatory mechanisms rather than seeking a diagnosis.
@@RelentlessBoater If you want my politics, I am an Anarcho-Syndicalist like Noam Chomsky. And there is no questioning he has one of the highest IQs of anyone alive right now.
The only relation that makes sense is that if you are highly intelligent it is easier to mask your symptoms and act "normal" for the longest period and then nobody understands why you have trouble handling your PhD, your family and your work, if you are so intelligent... Guess what? is even a miracle I got to grad school!
Studying economics in the toughest university of my country literally crippled me. At the last year of my studies, I got into a major depression and I decided not to go with a higher education unless I am extremely passionate about it or I know for sure that it will enable me to make good amount of money. it's been 10 years since my graduation, I couldn't have a career, still trying to "DECIDE" what's good for me. I always had a thing for languages, so I decided to learn German exactly 2 years ago, I've got to almost C1 level, but despite my solid academic background I am doomed to act as a call center agent, because whoever sees on my CV that I jumped from job to job, doesn't take me seriously. So thank you adhd, for destroying my life.
I got diagnosed with ADHD 3 years ago & got 125+ an IQ test, it made sense of all the struggles I had, where I am high achieving academically, perfectionist, interested in many things but find difficulty focusing on things that bore me or face burn out. I’m starting my masters in information technology management so I began to learn more about ways I can channel this in a conductive way.
Keep going. It's a curse but also a gift. Most important is to stay healthy = sleep + being active. It really helps. When you get older you will see that being different is beneficial. Example, if 9 people can cook but only you know the recipe, you would be more valueable and payed more. We are different for a reason, that is bio diversity and not a disease.
I am a highly gifted adult as well as ADHD and the struggle is real. To sum it up, giftedness compensates for all the shortcomings ADHD brings along. In short, I need people to work on my ideas, to do the implementation, while I am focused on the strategic and innovative concepts. I struggle really hard to implement them myself. Ideally this is a work symbiosis. Your video on time perception helped me a lot to work on this.
I had a similar issues, being in a room full of brilliant people looking to me for direction but unable to complete the tasks without the assistance of others is confusing for all involved. When I was evaluated by my Neuropsychologist they classified me as gifted and ADHD. They explained just as Dr. Barkley did that the two aren't related but when I then went to get treatment for the ADHD the M.D. indicated I wasn't eligible for treatment as my IQ was compensating for the ADHD. They refused to treat my ADHD as it didn't put my cognitive abilities below the population norm. This went on for about 15 years until I couldn't handle the chronic fatigue and was finally able to find an M.D. willing to at least try medications to help manage the ADHD. I'm fortunate in that my medication is now able to counteract most of my ADHD symptoms and I no longer suffer from chronic fatigue. I also noticed my ability to manage negative emotions had greatly improved which made me a better husband and father, life changing to be honest.
I fell in the gifted range in school but never got good grades. I knew the info but could never get my act together turning work in & not losing things. My long term organization is so bad it's contageous. I've had a significant positive impact on every job I've had but often got fired for being late. I would happily trade 1/3 my iq to be able consistently do the basics.
Same. What people don’t realize is that executive function issues have cascading effects because they can so undermine someone’s confidence, and unconfident, jaded people of any intellect are particularly effective thinkers.
One day, I was with my kids on school picnic. Younger was in preschool at that time and older was first grade. We joined a table on which there were some puzzles to solve. My younger did all what was prepared for his age, then he got interested by something else. Teacher gave it to him, saying - that one is difficult. He solved it quickly. After that she told us, that he was first kid that day, who solved it. Much older kids tried and failed. Now he is in first grade, struggling to sit still and with doing 'boring' assigments. It is what it is ;)
Understood and empathize. But I'd rather the world change from being so basic and box like. We should be celebrated and accommodated better, not treated poorly and shunned
Gifted part-time in 1st & 2nd grade, full-time 3rd grade onward. (IQ unknown, but had to be 135+.) Got diagnosed with ASD + ADHD at 41. Many of the videos I watch talking about ASD and/or ADHD management/coping strategies end up being things I had figured out the hard way over the last three decades.
There's been a recent surge in diagnosis of adhd. It's a better understood condition now, which means a lot of adults get the diagnosis later in life. This could play a role in the IQ results. With a whole group of people with less obvious symptoms missing from the test groups. Especially since there was also a correlation between less severe symptoms and gifted individuals, you could speculate that people with higher IQs are more likely to not get diagnosed, and therefor not be counted in the study.
Exactly. I feel like this guy is trying to prove something and he doesn't see the holes in his own logic. I am 42 and just recently realized I am ADHD and used my giftedness to mask it my whole life. I'm exactly the person who would not have been counted as having both in those studies.
The significant missing component that he’s somehow overlooked is that the higher IQ gifted people who weren’t diagnosed with ADHD didn’t get included in the studies to see if ADHD is related to giftedness.
I suspect the tests screened participants for the presence of ADHD. I think we need to know more about the specifics of the methodologies used in each of these studies. Maybe he addressed that, but with my ADHD, ahhh I'm really not sure. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
They probably did because the study (if it's any good) probably has a control group and both groups were probably screened for ADHD symptoms and IQ and then cross referenced
That's almost always accounted for in these studies. The data is weighted or the methods themselves take into account people who aren't diagnosed. There's probably a screening test at the beginning.
A possibility of this conflation is that gifted people with ADHD historically have tended to flock to academia because in theory you'd get more freedom and interesting problems to deal with, whereas neurotypical gifted people would just go make a boatload of money in finance or somewhere else and aren't considered as smart by society. This in my opinion is how the stereotype of the "absent-minded professor" developed. Einstein had ADHD, which made him a smart but a bad student, to the point that none of his professors accepted to recommend him for grad school. Many many academia stars were neurodivergent and/or mentally ill. This, in my opinion, led to romanticizing some disabilities and therefore trivializing them.
I just recently started taking my mental health seriously at the age of 30, my whole life has been basically of story of, "you have so much potential, but don't use it". Always made me feel like I wasn't trying hard enough. Finally decided I need to do something about it and got treatment for my ADHD, Now being more open to my condition, I started learning more, and hearing other's stories. I finally came across the term 2e(twice exceptional) and realized that this narrowed my life experiences even more, which compelled me to take an IQ test. I score an average of 138, and now most of my life is starting to make sense, along with no longer feeling so alone, as I'm now part of so many groups and pages that are full of other people that actually understand, can relate, and won't disregard my problems with a "try harder". As if I wouldn't if I actually could.
Thank-you for debunking this. I was never comfortable with the whole ADHD superpower nonsense. ADHD a pain in the ass. All the worst parts about myself that I have been trying to change all my life without success were largely due to the ADHD. Being diagnosed was a relief, but I'm not happy to have it. Just trying to learn my times tables in elementary school or formulas in high school was a nightmare which affected my math abilities to this day. Trying to work numbers in my head is like trying to grab smoke. Nevermind the the profound effect it had on my childhood relationships and the lifelong damage that caused which effect my relationships and mental heath even to today . No. It's not a superpower. Talk like that makes it harder to be taken seriously. It might be comforting to some but I would rather focus on how I managed to be successful DESPITE the ADHD using the strategies I developed to compensate before I ever knew there was any problem, besides me being shitty at stuff. Thank-you so much for all the hard work you do to bring awareness to the world. It's very much appreciated. Heck I only got diagnosed after watching one of your lectures which youtube seemed to think I needed to watch, which is a bit scary but best not to pull on that thread.
I have almost the same experience as you with math. My friend tutored me into math 75 from math 25 when I started college in my late 20's. While explaining a video game mechanic to that friend, and why one choice would be better than the other, he exclaimed "YOU JUST DID CALCULUS OUT LOUD YOU PR!CK." I can't math, but I can intuitively invent some portion of calculus. Superpower? I dunno, but it sure isn't nothing.
I have a gifted child. She taught herself to read at 4, she has the vocabulary that rivals that of most graduate students, she intuitively understands algebra and in first grade is solving algebraic equations with multiple unknown variables, she's taking a coding class and from the onset she understood how to code even though before her first class she'd never even heard the term coding before but it just makes sense to her. I'm above average intelligence and burnt out when I was a kid like many high ability kids do. Had a 760 on the math portion of the SATs and I was hungover and had no prep. Im doing my very best to steer her from the path I walked as a child
The good doctor is oversimplifying . At least in my experience -- high IQ with ADHD, have been told how smart I am my entire life (which is a problem itself) -- some of my strongest intelligence traits are deeply intertwined with the ADHD patterns in my brain. For example... I'm way better than the average person at seeing unusual and abstract connections and patterns between seemingly unrelated things. Seeing the bigger picture, so to speak. A big part of this is my brain not being good at focusing -- not filtering out or suppressing errant thoughts and digressions. Another example is "bottom line thinking" -- quickly cutting to the core of things, what really matters/is most important -- which is something that a lot of gifted ADHDers seem to be really good at. I also think this strength is inseparable from my ADHD, because I'm constantly craving the stimulation of the "aha" moment (and perhaps the social validation that comes with it). I'm bored with more mundane thinking, to the point of impatience, and am driven to find the deeper "how" and "why." Dr. Barkley might be right about the larger population data. I only can speak from anecdotal experience. But towards the end of the video, he goes through the lists of "attributes" of intelligence & creativity, and then claims that none of them overlap with ADHD at all. Uh, did he not read the lists? "Displays imagination...generates a large number of ideas...seeks unusual rather than conventional relationships...questions arbitrary decisions...etc etc"
Ditto for me. I struggled in school, but people who know me think I'm exceptionally smart. I am not, but I am exceptionally good at some things, and exceptionally poor at others. I had difficulty following teachers. I generally run TH-cam educational videos AT 1.75 speed.
Yeah, I was already skeptical of the validly of his data given this problematic history of ADHD diagnosis. But when he started directly contradicting him with the lists of attributes, I checked out. I wonder if he’s just not that familiar with ADHD generally. Or maybe his knowledge of it is several decades old.
It gets complicated with a high IQ, ADHD and ASD and dyslexia. That list is of typical aspects of a high IQ many of which may or may not be present or as well developed across the spectrum of IQ/ADHD individuals. With a high IQ we learn faster, understand concepts, etc. when compared to the "average" ADHD individual on which the DSM criteria have to be set thus the continuing "You're too smart to have ADHD or Autism" fallacy that leaves so many of us fighting this additional battle to be recognized.
Your seeing the big picture is something "ungifted" people can do, as well. It's in about 25 percent of the population and is only because you happen to have the structured, linear mind type. That doesn't make you smarter than someone who is gifted in seeing all of the details or someone whose mind can jump from one thing to another without an obvious connection to most people and yet every thought is connected and simply faster than most people can comprehend. Who decides how IQ is tested? Who decides what variables are analyzed to come to a conclusion? Who decides what is intelligence? I do much of what you mentioned, too, yet have the mind type O mentioned last ... and an apparently average IQ. Who came up with the measurement of intelligence?
Just want to thank you Dr. Barkley for taking the time to make these videos. They are very helpful for those of us busy with our clinical practices to make sure we are keeping up to date. Especially since your Guilford newsletter was discontinued.
Be careful relying on "experts", too many have a habit of getting into silo thinking i.e they fail to see or admit that their view may be proven incorrect. People like Russell Barkley and Gabor Mate have considerable knowledge but some of us with ASD and ADHD (2e) have a love hate relationship with their views. The greatest message that several of us took away from a graduate level course was "always be sceptical", some will not admit they were wrong or not publicly admit they goofed in some research or managed to get a poor research paper past peer review.
@@chriscohlmeyer4735you can’t compare Dr Barkley with Gabor Mate. Mate is spreading misinformation all over, Barley is not doing that. You can agree or disagree with his personal opinion but here he’s sharing articles based on science.
I tested above the 3rd standard deviation throughout my life. It was isolating to grow up like that bc everyone expected so much more of me and didn't want to hear about any struggles... then I got diagnosed at 41 w/ ADHD, after watching your 2012 lecture on ADHD being an executive function disorder. Life changing.. I feel like I was clearly understood for the first time and received the toolkit I was looking for my while life. Meds + Mary Selanto's CBT + externalizing everything = victory. Thanks doc!
As someone who is gifted and has ADHD, my ADHD symptoms were masked by the traits that came with giftedness for most of my schooling. However whenever I socialised with other gifted people, my ADHD symptoms stuck out like a sore thumb. I've lost count of the times that I was told by my gifted peers that I was "the dumbest smart person they'd ever met" which often made me laugh and say "just because I'm smart doesn't necessarily mean that I think things through!" And I feel like that's something a lot of people who received diagnosis later in life can relate to.
The combination of ADHD and being gifted does imho present a unique set of challenges. As positive as giftedness might be, and as much it might be used for masking and compensating ADHD by brute force computational power, it might also lead to especially severe problems. For instance: Chosing an occupation that is interesting, challenging and self fullfilling, is even more important for people with ADHD than for those without. But it might be darn near impossible or at least very difficult. A lot of those professions require years of studies planning persistence aso. And often also quite narrow focus. A clear problem when the aptitude for achieving long term goals is minimal, but the curiosity for scattering focus over a vast array of topics is endless 🤷. A massive thank you to Dr Russel Barkley, for all immensely valuable contributions. The material that you so graciously have shared on TH-cam, has made a massive difference to me personaly, and I would guess, to countless others as well❣️🙏💐
I took an IQ test when I was at pretty much my lowest mental function in my entire life. It was part of an overall psychological assessment I requested when things really went off the rails. Even at that point my scores were eyebrow raising high. It was very very helpful to have the info. The range of scores in different areas really helped me to understand my difficulties, despite being a supposed genius in others. Kind of a world class sprinter with his shoes tied together sort of thing. It convinced me to finally spend the real time it takes to find the right medication and get true treatments in my life.
Nice! Althought I wish I was gifted I just have adhd and asd without the higher than normal iq to compensate, wish I wasnt conditioned to have such a strong frank sense of self then not being extroardinarily intelligance wouldnt be a problem. Altgought with higher IQ comes more loneliness maybe, yet I have that without being gifted lol. I have so much persononal satisfaction to loose by wanting to be something Im not.
"eyebrow raising high" is such a good way to put it. I was somewhat uncomfortable with the assessment because I was dreading the confirmation that I'm a hopeless idiot. Then I saw the results and the eye brows definitely did rise. So unexpected. Ironically, although I wished I was "smart" all of my life, seeing that I apparently was all along just made me angry at myself that I squandered it, haha.
I went through a battery of IQ tests in the early 70s. Looking back, I can see how my ADHD skewed the testing. The psychologist who tested me and my siblings said my parents' divorce lowered our IQs. I find this topic undetermined until I see meta-analyses.
If you're traumatised by it, and your parents were often on your mind or some aspect of how your life was then, It possibly was interfering with your ability to focus...
I have to wonder how these numbers would stack up if every diagnosable person with ADHD were diagnosed. I can't help but wonder if an individual with both ADHD and a high I.Q. would be more likely to fall through the cracks of diagnosis than someone with a low I.Q., especially if they presented as inattentive in childhood. That would skew the numbers towards lower I.Q. in people with ADHD.
I agree 100%. I was diagnosed at 38. When I did IQ tests when younger my scores ranged from 134-154. My general results in early education meant I was labeled curious, imaginative, and a daydreamer - not distracted and/or hyper-focused. I think I would sum up your post by saying there's likely a positive correlation between an increase in IQ and an increase in symptom masking or perception of symptoms from others that results in non-diagnosis
I'd love to see a study that could compare the early-age IQ scores of those with an early diagnosis of ADHD against the early-age IQ scores of those with a later-in-life diagnosis of ADHD.
Yes, I agree. I wasn't diagnosed until my early 40's, so my school age IQ tests would've been counted in the normal cohort. I definitely fell through the cracks, even though I was obviously dysfunctional. I believe at the time there was a strong bias against the idea that highly intelligent people could have learning disabilities. So, I was failing school, despite being openly bright, curious, and intellectually engaged. I wasn't able to do homework because I was too disorganised (and eventually avoidant), and I wouldn't read long texts because I'm a slow reader (due to having to re-read everything multiple times, because I lose focus every 2 or 3 lines). I got by through absorbing everything verbally and visually in class. I didn't stand out as especially intelligent at my first high school, as it was a somewhat prestigious selective school where everyone was gifted. In that environment falling behind was what made you stand out. The school wasn't interested in supporting disabilities and was actually hostile to anyone that wasn't going to maintain their image through academic achievement. I was labelled lazy by everyone, bullied by students and teachers, and I ended up very depressed and smoking a lot of pot. I was referred to a "youth centre" run by a local hospital at age 16 for counselling. There I was given an IQ test by a psychologist. My scores in every section of the test were right at the top of the chart, except for two sections which were at the average level, and one that was slightly above average (final score was 150). It was obvious to me that something was wrong and that such a distribution wasn't normal, but because my significantly reduced functioning in certain areas fell in the "normal range", they just shrugged it off. Nothing ever came of it. I may have "scored normal" in those areas, but I still couldn't function normally. My guess is that, as the individual tests only require a few minutes of focus I was able to brute force my way to a normal score, but a longer test would've given worse results. I left the selective school at the end of that year and transferred to a local, regular high school. They even had a special stream for people with (more profound) learning disabilities, but they too didn't like the idea of obviously smart people (I stood out at this school) claiming to have difficulties. The teachers there called me lazy too. They too believed that an intelligent person unable to perform must suffer from a moral failing, not a disability. The refused to let me sit the final exam because I hadn't handed in all my assignments, so I never graduated high school. I've tried undertaking education a few times as an adult (I was accepted into a university on the strength of a personal statement), but anything vaguely academic I wasn't able to complete, despite being fully capable of learning and understanding the material. It has only been more practical courses, where all the learning and assessment happens in class, that I did well in. I haven't attempted it again since my diagnosis and starting treatment, but I realise now that I learn just fine. I just struggle to jump through the assessment hoops that educational institutions demand because they don't match my strengths. If they assessed my learning in the ways I can best demonstrate it, I would do well. Sorry for the rambling post, I don't blame anyone who doesn't read it. I just see a lot of comments from smart people saying they skated through on sheer talent, and not much from the people who were severely impacted enough that even with a high IQ they couldn't get through school.
@@jananclowes351Standard deviations of 3 between the “knowledge/thinking” parts and the Executive Function parts of those tests, in the range from normal to hitting the test ceiling, seem to indicate giftedness + ADHD and really need to become widely recognised for this. I’ve seen it so many times now, and still, like you, these young people get no help because everything is at least normal, or just under at worst but not enough to pull the total test score below 140 (on the WISC with a ceiling of 145). And this in a world that’s busy digging its own grave and desperately needs wildly creative thinkers to help figure out if we still have a chance to clean up the mess we’ve made of this planet.
I managed to get myself through high school, later went to university, didn't manage to finish university but I also never really did attempt to study... Got diagnosed with ADHD at age 36. Turns out I have an IQ of 136 😅 Which would explain my lack of need to study, but I just barely scraped by too though to be fair.
Very familiar story. In my case, I didn’t develop serious study habits until college, but even then they were rife with procrastination. They were enough to get the degree, at least :P I was also lucky enough to have been diagnosed younger, and started taking meds in college.
Appreciate the rich literature brought to the table. I have a few guesses regarding the data. 1. Adhd affect learning negatively and it may be difficult to control in studies 2. Researches may be influenced by selection biases as normally it's poor performing children and adults who gets sent for a diagnosis. 3. Adhds novelty seeking behavior may result in adhd individuals knowing a wide variety of subjects which can be interpreted as smart but doesn't reflect on iq tests
I wish educators knew sixty years what they know today. I was a poor student , and assumed I was just dumb. My parents got me a tutor , one on one, and my marks soared. As a teen I saw a psychologist to find out why. The results showed very high iQ. Sixty years later, and retired from a demanding stressful career, I have not changed. I cannot learn in a classroom environment. I can’t pay attention. I have few if any skills my friends have, and simply cannot focus. I think it also contributed to my marriage failure. Living with a partner with add is frustrating. ADD is a curse, but God has saved me, and I have an excellent retired life. I had pyloric stenosis when born I did not eat for six weeks after birth until surgery. I suspect that may have contributed Excellent video.
I just want to say thank you for what you do. I have a combined presentation, and one of the things the psychiatrist referred me to, in terms of evidence-based psychoeducation, was your content.
Thanks to you i start at the age of 60 to have a better consciousness . Nothing compared to neuro typicals though . I feel my intelligence applies to different dominions respect an iq test intelligence . I have an insatiable curiosity about lots of subjects but I have dyscalculia .
Graduated high school in the bottom 10% of class (of 300). Received a probationary acceptance to a state college. Lifetime achievement of 3 degrees; 130 undergraduate hours, 124 graduate hours and 3 careers. My ADHD has been hiding in plain sight for 84 years.
Many of us with ADHD have to live with the knowledge that we're not living up to our full cognitive potential. That is true whether we are gifted and successful or not. I don't think ADHD has no benefits whatsoever, but it certainly doesn't make me feel any sharper. I've always been a high achiever but I can't tell you how often my inner monologue is: "How did I miss that? I was trying so hard to pay attention. What's wrong with me?" So much of the ADHD experience is negative self-concept and I don't think being gifted changes that.
"IQ-test taking could be part of the problem" lol, indeed. When we all had to take an IQ test before attending secondary school, there was a 15-minute break in between and I played and ran around in this very exciting and huge new school building that had an elevator! I somehow ended up in the basement and couldn't find my way back to where the testing was. Somehow I managed to find the classroom of my older sister and she brought me back. But I missed half of the test at this point and handed it in extremely unfinished. The irony.
Ugh, I hated those tests! Hey kid, we are going to pull you out of your normal routine, put you into an unfamiliar place with tons of new stimuli and expect you to sit still while you answer a bunch of questions that will determine your academic future. Minutes in and I was just as lost inside of my own head as you were in that school.
Hahahaaaa 😂 this is why I love ADHD, I laughed alot to my actions as well 🤪 also so creative, breath-taking, humorous, problem solving, social, fast, distracted by boring stuff and extra focused on interesting projects. hyper focused, philosophical, enjoying the little things and talking all day, I Love It ❤️
Also, because people sometimes dont realize this trap, the more you test your IQs guys the better you will get at taking the test. You're not getting smarter, you are mastering the specific logic puzzles they are asking you about.
Thanks for the video! This made me think a lot of the IQ testing I got during my ADHD assessment. Afterwards, when I received my diagnosis and the psychologist got to discussing that part, she told me that she felt that it reflected strengths that may have allowed me to compensate at times in my life. I was late diagnosed at age 52 last fall. I don't know if I would qualify as also being 'gifted'. At times I certainly don't feel that way, even though I sometimes identify with things associated with that. I'm not sure if she was implying that, and I don't think she would have wanted to guess. During the IQ testing, I had a lot a trouble concentrating and focusing on the tests. So much so, that she apparently noticed and asked me if I'd like to do them another day. I informed her that it was normal for me with tests like these and waiting for another day would probably only delay my overall assessment. My results were what she described as a 'spiky IQ profile'. Despite my difficulties in concentration, I scored in the 96th percentile for verbal reasoning, and in the 97th percentile for non-verbal/spatial and one of the sub-tests for the latter was in the 99th percentile. However, my 'processing speed' results were 'low-average' and my 'working memory' results were 'poor' (noticeably below the norm or average). She identified my working memory results in particular with my diagnosis, stating that it may be a part of what she found in the results. So, in that regard and in my case it would indeed seem that my ADHD did bring down my overall IQ testng results.
Very interesting. I'm still waiting for a chance to get diagnosed, and have never taken a supervised IQ test. But I've done a few of the semi-accurate ones here and there over the years, and it seems I'm probably around 120. That is with all cognitive skills combined, my performance crashes when processing speed or working memory are heavily weighted. I did the public MENSA screener test, they seem to value processing speed above all and I tested at 100. Personally, this just tells me that IQ doesn't seem to be a particularly useful tool for anything besides bragging rights. I've noticed this "spiky profile" already as a young school kid, my reasoning was apparently great but I would do very poorly with time-sensitive tasks. Explains a lot in hindsight. Thanks for sharing your story!
Delayed processing and poor working memory can be related to cptsd, autism, or injury. I'm AuDhd, delayed processing, poor working memory, interoception, lexithymia, etc. I was this many (45) years old when I learned that
@@Thilosophocl3sInteresting... A few people (3 to be precise) had asked me over a few years (before I got diagnosed) if I might be on the spectrum. Even a previous psychologist who referred me to the specialist had said, "Maybe also ask about an assessment for ASD, too...? Just in case..." But the specialist, when I saw her, felt pretty sure I wasn't also autistic and encouraged me to not invest the money (that she could have charged me) for a second assessment. I guess it was the number of symptoms that I had that overlap with the diagnostic criteria for ASD. But the specialist who assessed me felt it could all be explained by an ADHD diagnosis. It's interesting sometimes, though... Sometimes... When some autistic individuals describe some of their experiences it sounds so familiar to me and a lot like my experiences. Again, maybe it's the big overlap of symptoms between the two diagnoses but I often find it a topic of interest for me. I was sent to another psychologist because of some things I had described from my past during my ADHD assessment. That other psychologist said that she believed I had had some kind of subtle CPTSD, but she believed that I had somehow "worked through it" over the course of my lifetime and it didn't seem to require any further help at this point in my life. Otherwise, it turns out I was wrong about my guess about what the specialist who assessed me thought regarding 'giftedness'. I had to consult with her for recommendations for workplace accommodations recently and the topic somehow came up. She told me, "No, you're gifted." OK.... I guess. I find it still feels kind of 'blurry' for me how people do or don't define that.
I liken hyperfocus to telepathy. It would be very useful (and maybe even fun) to read other people's thoughts, right? Now suppose you couldn't stop reading other people's thoughts, and can't control whose thoughts you were reading. Doesn't sound so useful or fun anymore, now does it? Hyperfocus is great, except for not being able to control what you're focusing on. Similarly, with ASD, attention to detail and noticing patterns can be really useful, but there's no off switch. There's a lot of noise in addition to the signal, plus you can't stop noticing all the little flaws and inconsistencies that nobody else pays attention to. It's maddening, in both meanings of the word (angry and crazy).
It is. If you somehow train yourself to menage your mind, it's super power. You can earn much more just because you are different. Example, if 9 people are great cookers but only you know all recipes, you will be extra rewarded. It's biodiversity not a disease. Biology make us different because it's only way for species to survive - you never know what's skills are going to be usefull. ADHD is so common, that it can't be disease. Do you think light blonde hair are disease? 😂 Nope, it's biodiversity.
As a child I was never been able to escape the fact that homework and tests were useless. I just couldn't care. I cared that my mother would be mad later if I did not perform, but when compared to days and months of homework? I'd still take a slap and no dinner over that.
I really want to know more about how ADHD severity is determined. If the only measure that can be tested is in terms of visible symptoms and negative outcomes, a slightly lower IQ would make sense. Others mentioned it but intelligence can allow for masking. For example, someone who is extremely distractible but because of quick wit they can fill in the blanks and infer what they missed. Wouldn't a truer test of severity be the raw distractibility/executive function impairment as opposed to how much you get found out making mistakes? Also, there are plenty of social differences that come with being ADHD and gifted that would not show up in the research studies covered here. For example higher expectations and even more questioning of effort and intention "Well you are obviously smart enough so you must just be lazy". Not saying anything to disagree with Dr. Barkley, just adding some nuance.
I agree with Dr. Barkley; as one commenter below said, I'm also a medical doctor considered "gifted". I agree that my giftedness has been balancing my adhd and has allowed me to pursue high level of education. That being said, the mental toll to not drop out is tremendous and although the symptoms are reduced by giftedness, they show up massively during stressful moments and burn-out becomes almost habitual. Diagnosis and medication is overall a relief.
This "you're just bored and lazy in school because you're smart" has cost me so fucking much. Like I wasn't even that smart in the first place it's just I could absorb more random information than other kids because I somehow got random tidbits when zoning out (I wasn't outwardly hyperactive) and because I was actually VERY entertained and thus motivated by learning new information, just couldn't do the methodical studying and homework part (hyperfixation style) as opposed to most kids who had little interest whether they studied or not. It's like my adhd symptoms masked my adhd and gave off the wrong impression.
If you could easily absorb more random information than other kids, then it is likely you do indeed have higher than average intelligence which is not being fully potentiated because of your difficulties with sustained mental focus.
@@michaels4255 I know I'm smart but not nearly as much as it seemed back then. in the same way my slow processing in some contexts does not make me that much less smart, the factors i mentioned acted the opposite way.
One day, I was with my kids on school picnic. Younger was in preschool at that time and older was first grade. We joined a table on which there were some puzzles to solve. My younger did all what was prepared for young school kids, then he got interested by something else. Teacher gave it to him, saying - that one is difficult. He solved it quickly. After that she told us, that he was first kid that day, who solved it. Much older kids tried and failed. Now he is in first grade, struggling to sit still and with doing 'boring' assigments. It is what it is ;)
People seem desperate to find positive aspects to their ailments; if it's not high IQ it's hyperfocus, creativity, ability to multitask, etc. Sometimes you're just dealt a bad hand.
I mean. If managed properly (diagnosed,support systems,medicated potentially,therapy and/or coaching)it can be both. I always refer to it as my biggest strength and largest weakness, because it allows me to find solutions other people don’t find but also makes simple administration a literal task from hell that takes longer than rebuilding a server from scratch. But I can understand that others might not feel this way or don’t have the luck to be able to work in a field that is suited for their adhd. I hope you do find some positives in it, this all without saying that yes, indeed, sometimes it’s an amazingly shitty deal
There is no denying that the impact of ADHD is mostly negative in the Western Society. But you can't Change how your brain works and instead of Living your whole life crying about how bad you have it you could just make the Best out of it and that includes seeing positive Aspects that come wirh it, no matter how small.
From a family with three being ADHD, those with, were always told in school were “very intelligent”. One was tested and recommended to gifted program but decided against it. All learned very easily but issues came in when “turning in work”. Got it done, just didn’t turn it in. All three. It was frustrating. All grown now, all started college, none finished. 🤷🏻♀️
A great review of the existing research, thanks as ever for your insight. :). I echo the hypotheses of a lot of my peers in these comments regarding the underdiagnosis of gifted individuals with ADHD, and how that may skew data. I was determined to be gifted in 2nd grade after an IQ test that scored me above 130. I then was not diagnosed until age 22 despite, in retrospect, showing an extremely classic case of ADHD as it presents in girls from a very young age. To my knowledge I was never screened for it. This type of anecdote is so common that it's a joke in ADHD peer groups. I was extremely bright, very motivated to learn, consumed books ravenously, and showed strong leadership abilities. I just couldn't do my homework and being bored was physically painful. By necessity this is all anecdote, but my parents recall being given resources after I was classed as gifted and moved to that class. These resources listed common symptoms of ADHD and Autism (executive dysfuncion, poor punctuality, sensory issues, deviant behavior) and assured them that they were very normal for gifted kids. It has been years and I'm only one case, and I'm relying on the words of people who didn't believe in ADHD for years anyway, but if this was common practice for any amount of time I would expect it to have a strong discouraging effect on parents seeking diagnosis at a time where there was already a strong stigma. This would have occurred for me in the mid to late 2000s. If indeed these kids in gifted programs were missed and continue to be missed, a purely IQ data driven analysis will not suffice to discover definitively whether there is a connection. I would be interested to see clinical research that explores this in more detail. I appreciate your acknowledgement of other factors beyond general intelligence swaying the IQ score, as we all know what an imperfect beast it is. Thank you again for all your work :)
I pretty much second this. This describes my life too well. Took my first IQ test at the age of 13 in which i scored 145, but i wasnt diagnosed with ADHD untill age 25.
I grew up before ADHD was recognized by most people. So the fact that I spaced out most of fourth grade just earned me a C in conduct. I tested gifted snd did pretty well in school, but as an adult in the working world I found it very hard to apply my intelligence. I don’t know if my ADHD got worse or the increased demands of adult life proved too difficult for my intelligence to work around.
Self-diagnosed myself in my mid-30s. Went to a psychiatrist, had my IQ measured across the board. Ended up in the 2nd-5th percentile in all areas apart from whatever test was measuring the working memory, where I dropped to the 50th percentile. Technically, still *average*, but a massive decrease from all other abilities, which was another proof of my diagnosis according to the psychiatrist. I hid my disorder fairly well, even got really decent grades in university (mostly because from year 3 on it was really interesting stuff across the board). Filled out an ADHD screening test once without any issues because self-reporting is biased. I simply did not know I had more problems starting and finishing tasks than everyone else. I just assumed everyone was struggling the same and/or I was simply lazy
@@ClaysonWoodIt was mostly a lot of tests measuring IQ (logical thinking in the first place), maths, history, language abilities, but also stuff like listening to a long, contrived story and then retelling it with as many details as you remember right after and, one more time, after 20-30 minutes or so (this is where I bombed badly). Also, a bunch of questionnaires that both I and my partner filled out covering the whole life from childhood. Someone else's perspective is crucial to them so that they don't rely on just your word and their observations. These days, I think, in some of the fancier places they can even put you in an MRT machine and see how your brain responds to boring or hard tasks and make further conclusions from that. I didn't do it because I thought it would be overkill (and it costs a lot more, I believe)
@@ClaysonWoodGo for it. I got prescribed stimulant medication, but for me it doesn't get you that much more focused (it does a bit, but not crazy much). What it does for me though is it improves my emotional life by a large margin. As in, either I don't get emotionally triggered at all in situations where I otherwise would or, at the very least, I have a gap between the instinctive knee-jerk reaction and what I output in the world. I then have the ability to observe the reaction and realize that I'm about to overreact and that immediately puts it to bed somehow. Anyway, this is not quite what I expected, but is admittedly very helpful
Thanks for this. I thought a lot of my characteristics from the "giftedness" list actually came from me having ADHD, but now I understand that they're probably DESPITE the ADHD. Very interesting.
Age 46 was diagnosed 3 mos ago. I had my iq tested at 131 when I was younger and went to art school to focus on my creative side. I have had bouts of extreme anxiety and depression. ADHD meds work magic for me. No more anxiety or depression anymore. So thankful.
When I was teaching 8th grade I prepped and practice tested my students to prepare for the standardized tests. I'd already been taking a lot of practice tests myself to qualify for teaching other subjects. What I clearly noticed in my own test taking was about 10% errors. I knew the answer was B I intended to bubble in B, but somehow I bubbled in C. (The practice test B was circled, but the answer sheet C was bubbled in.) This was very consistent. I have ADHD, but I also always did very well on standardized tests (Of course I wondered what if I'd done 10% better?) So I set out to help my students avoid making this mistake. One problem. They weren't making this mistake. I don't think even one student was making this same error. It was just me. When I've noticed ADHD symptoms in my students usually they had terrible academic skills, were usually failing. Do I think ADHD negatively affects IQ scores? Apparently it does but I think the deficit is still in attention not in general intelligence. In fact I think the opposite is true. ADHD seems to speed up thinking, you seek novelty. Here's a test. That teacher who doesn't like me because I'm annoying so I can never do better than a C? Here's my chance to show them. So whatever deficit Dr Barkley is talking about I think he's missing the point. I may know something, but because of my ADHD I might have trouble applying that knowledge or ability. That will lower my score, but that's not intelligence that's execution. Of course that goes into determining IQ. The remediation will of course be different from what's needed for a student who does have a lower IQ. And whatever basic intelligence maybe, being the 'smart kid' or the 'talented kid' ends by about age 12. After that it is work in, benefit out. If you're a smarty pants in elementary school, by the time you're in the 7th grade if you do not start studying and practicing, you're not going very far. Having been certified to teach Gifted, etc, working with these children. Sure they are often thought of as being hyperactive. A first grade HG teacher I worked with said her first task with every student was peeling them off the wall and getting them to sit in the chair. One of her students, sweetest kid in the world, she had a meeting the mom. "I had to send N out of class today..." Mom starts crying. What's wrong? "Where is she going to go to school now?? Oh she would never be kicked out of school.... "She was kicked out of kindergarten, that's how she wound up here." Something else with HG kids. They seem to go through a morbid period. The adults and shrink were really worried about an HG child close to me. "He's talking about death." That's not normal in a 5 year old. Then I remembered. Oh. Yeah it is. I wouldn't trade ADHD for anything. I always feel like I'm off task, but then I look back and I've done all these amazing things.
Lol, "just like us" and "just like the rest of us" makes me laugh. I know you don't mean a single thing negative by it, and I think it's the most accurate and clearly understood wording to make the point, but it really makes me want to laugh at myself in a healthy way, like, "Oh well, it is what it is, so might as well laugh and not be upset by it." (I love your sincerity and the way you discuss adhd with such dignity for us who have it. You are an advocate for those with adhd, and our lives are so much better directly because of your work and dedication to the subject. Thank you!)
I think it’s too hard to tell because most of the time somebody with ADHD might not just have ADHD. I have taken many IQ tests, before medication and when I was younger I scored somewhere around 118. I had no idea how much my ADHD was disabling me until I was medicated for it at the age of 24. I have taken more IQ tests recently and most of them are around 135-140. The thing is, I’m not sure if I just have ADHD sometimes I also feel like my brain is just completely different than everybody else is. I’m in the process of trying to figure out if I might also have ASD. And it looks pretty likely that I just have both. Knowing this about myself, it’s been hard because when I was younger I truly believed I was unintelligent. But I had so many questions, I still have so many questions. I think that’s why I even do well on IQ tests. I’m really good at paying attention to small details it’s just some thing that my brain does and I enjoy the process of that. But I’m absolutely garbage when it comes to talking to people. It’s some thing I had to try very hard at. I just think that our brains are very strange. As you probably have guessed I am not the best with writing and grammar. But I’m really good with special awareness skills and building blueprints as well as 3-D building on the computer. I feel like the reason why I have done well on IQ tests recently is because I just use the skills very often. If you were to measure my social intelligence though I would rate really low. I don’t have very good social skills.
Definitely ASD. My son was lining up objects since a baby! You should get an assessment for your peace of mind. I suspect I may be too as I used to walk on my toes as a kid. And I hate clothing that is itchy.
I find myself in both ends. When I was younger suddenly after a summer my mind stopped working as usual and everything seemed harder. Now I’m older and everything seems effortless as my mind has quieted a bit. I’m studying a second degree an my marks are excellent. I have to set every day reminders, alarms and have utensils duplicated and triplicated Around the house, the cars, the handbags, the floors. On the other hand I m very observant, have good memory for music and texts, I have won several prices writing in Spanish, English and in my first language. Now I implement everything the singing teacher says immediately cause have good propiaceptive sense…(but )I enjoy life my way. I do not need people to understand me anymore, what a relief!
Great content, I think a video going in-depth on past medications (and why they aren't used) or ones awaiting FDA approval for ADHD would be interesting. I'm sure that some of the releasing agents discovered over the years have more favorable releasing profiles than amphetamine and methylphenidate, no? For a disability as common as ADHD you really would think there would be as many novel medications as other dopaminergic dysregulations like parkinsons.
I got both, and while in elementary school I used to go to a gifted kids school for one day a week. Recalling memories from there, and of the gifted kids class I was in from age 12 to graduation, I definitely notice in the gifted environments a higher rate of characteristics in my peers that make my mind go to ADHD and its defining points, and I know many from the gifted programs who are diagnosed with it and/or autism and really aren't the type to "follow trends" for the fun of it. So while the science makes sense, it definitely doesn't line up with my experience. One possible way to explain it is that schools are generally too demanding of all students to sit still and focus for extended periods of time, and in the gifted programs the teachers weren't as strict and allowed everyone more running around, missing of deadlines and impatience out of a lack of worry for our futures, since we were "gifted and therefore bound to succeed anyway" (which, by the way, isn't that clear at all). So the teachers relaxed and allowed us to be kids a whole lot more than they would in a regular class, where worries about not finishing school properly give rise to more discipline. As for me, I got diagnosed while I was in elementary school. My attention span didn't last for a fraction of the lesson, but it was enough to finish the assigment. As to not waste energy, I learned to tune out during the explanation and only do things while there was an assignment, figuring it out as I go, and everyone thought I was only smart, until the whole sitting still part got me so agitated by the end of the schoolday that I'd lash out at people and get into fistfights over the smallest of things because I couldn't stand the tension buildup by the end of the day (and got shouted at for sprinting from one end of the school to the other while on break. Also no ball games allowed! bruh). I remember the teachers mega-confused, like, how is it that this straight A kid is getting sent home for punching someone the second time this week
IQ testing - ugh. I've been tested multiple times and get a different result every time. I've ranged from 143 - 172. I've been told I was dumb my whole life. I always thought I was stupid because if I was so smart, why do I fail so much? I was diagnosed last year (still not being treated for it) and it makes sense. It doesn't make me feel any better about myself because nothing has changed - only explained.
@@woodruffmd I was the worst student until the fifth grade of elementary school, when I changed schools everything changed. In sixth grade, I started to have an interest in physics, mathematics, and literature. From then on, I started to be the best student in my school, with high grades. In eighth grade, the school principal wanted me to move up three grades in school. But in the course of time, many things happened; and due to my irresponsibility I was not accelerated. I was absent almost the entire year. Now, I'm only studying what interests me: Electronics, physics, mathematics, literature and chemistry.
I am fairly convinced that IQ alone is not a good indicator for intelligence. This happens after both my wife got our diagnosis. Both of us have ADHD, and she has also ASD. Both of us also work in very mind-demanding fields: I am a journalist/writer, she's in academia. I had some achievements people correlate with high intelligence - I have learned to read very early, I am self-taught in a second language and with music. However, my wife is in a whole different level: with little less than a month studying, she got high results in my country's nation-wide qualifying exams for Major in Economics. This test is not only painstakingly hard and complex, but people study well over a year to hit her level. Moreover, she also knows six languages - half of them, I must say, entirely self taught. Both of us had very similar experiences in education: innatentive, gave not a single crap about homework, slept during class, you name it. And we still did good. However, with a single look at us you'd probably tell she's the smarty-pants. And you'd be right! People around always told she was the smartest, brightest person ever, and many feats along her life added to evidence. Thing is, my average IQ scored 128. And her average score? 100. Which is not low to worldwide (or even our country) standards... but she expected more. And this result really broke her. Now, she thinks herself as a farse, claiming all her achievements were some twisted, reverse pygmalion effect. Now, listening to Mr. Barkley, I can see some anedoctal evidence for his two thesis in our cases: 1) Her diagnosis also points much more impairment in cognitive functions when compared to mine (which also might, among many things, play a part on her IQ results); 2) She performs a lot better in sustained attention tasks and other areas she's impaired when medicated. This also holds true to me. When I received my diagnosis, the clinical professional told me my IQ would likely rank better. Seeing how much she has improved after meds, I have no doubts this would apply to her as well. I have a friend who is also ASD, scored 150+ IQ and is a Mensa member, an institution he invited me to try and join years ago and that I failed the tests. He often brings me examples of people with high IQs who couldn't really achieve anything major in life. Oftentimes, in their forums, he sees topics such as: "how come I have such a high IQ and have nothing and my brother who scored lower IQ is a federal judge?" This is not to say there is no "gifted" people in there. But as we note, for each successful case of correlating IQ to intelligence, we find others that contradict it. In my country, there is this famous musician that is a Mensa member and has 150+ IQ - and he gives Mensa a very bad name, as he is known for spilling lies and being dumb. He puts IQ as a person's mental "hardware" capabilities, and what people do with it, the mind's "softwares". Sure, it might be nice to have good hardware, but what good does it do if all you do with it is run Minesweeper? And is it really necessary to have the highest "clocking speed" to run "programs" that really matters? This is why I am not really sure IQ in itself is a good indicator for intelligence, "giftedness" or chances of success. Which is not to say it is useless at all. It just seems to me, at least for now, that this number cannot hold the weight we give it. And this is why I believe my wife will reach her goals, no matter how high are some digits in her tests.
There are 3 things: 1) IQ test performance 2) IQ 3) Intelligence These are all distinct. When we confuse them, we confuse our measurements for the things we measure.
If the average IQ is in the 120 range, it’s less than 10%. If it’s less than 10%, its not insignificant, but other things have a much bigger impact, such as the zip code you were raised in
@@arentak2773 I think he is also talking about it as a statistical measure on a population level. In one individual it could mean a world of difference, but if you look at an entrire bell curve distribution the difference my not be as dramatic. And like francis was pointing out, other factors, such as socioeconomic status, education, and upbringing, can also play a substantial role in shaping an individual's opportunities and outcomes.
I was 9th in my class in high school. I was an extremely good test taker, but I was absolutely awful at turning homework in on time, or at all. I was very regularly the most participative in class, especially in math/science/music, and often understood concepts long before my classmates, even in honors/AP classes, to the point I'd have to explain things to them 😅 Despite my apparent intelligence, I really struggled to maintain my grades. It was an absolute blessing to me that tests and in-school work were such a significant portion of my grades. Outside of school, it was such a struggle to get myself to do homework, especially if that homework was long or complex. No paper was ever written or usually even started earlier than the night before it was due. I did all of my best writing under a deadline. I hated it, but it was the only way it was going to get done. I fully believe that this was due to undiagnosed ADHD. My mother told me the other day (for the first time) that I was evaluated for ADHD when I was very young, but was not diagnosed simply because I could sit and work on a task for hours. What I think that evaluation failed to take into account is that folks with ADHD can hyperfocus on things that are sufficiently engaging or interesting. Also, I believe that ADHD at the time did not include the inattentive subtype, so there was this expectation that ADHD meant you had to be hyperactive always. I think the important thing to note here is that intelligence can act as a mask for ADHD symptoms. The percentage of the population that has undiagnosed ADHD is skewed toward those with higher IQ. In other words, any study that claims that ADHD has a correlation with lower IQ, is really saying that _diagnosed_ ADHD has a correlation with lower IQ. Certainly there is the possibility that all ADHD has that correlation, but it also seems apparent that there is a correlation between IQ and the ability to mask neurodivergence.
I'm 50+ years old physician,finished high school age 16, medical school age 22 (back in my country), been practicing medicine for 30 +'years back home and here is US, found that I have ADHD just few years ago when my 3rd child was diagnosed, knew my second one has moderate ADHD ( He got Phd in chemestry), I was never medicated. I never consider myself nothing special. My IQ is above 125, and all my kids have ADHD are above 125 according to standardized testing. Have all these researchers, including you, consider that current data is based on outcomes from "products" of an education model that set neuro atypical individuals for failure.
He also said that ADHD is caused by brain damage during pregnancy or labour. Whereas it's well research that it's running in families. Have two kids and one is a copy of its father - shy, smart, organized, gentle. Second is copy of me chaotic, energetic, smart, quick. I am pretty sure we both have ADHD, never diagnosed. I have math and economy master degree, great career as finance tech system expert. I've always consider myself smart. I had problems like learning just before deadlines, always forgeting things, doing 5 things same time resulting ruining something in between. Anyway here I am, doing good happy and succesfull. I don't know my IQ, I took online test few times, sometimes scored above 120, sometimes around 150. Not sure if those test are trustworhty. I would rate myself around 130. I am not genius for sure, just Smart.
When I was a kid, I was in gifted classes at first. I read at a college level in grade school. And it wasn't till middle and high school that I struggled. And my main struggles were doing homework on time, getting projects done on time, forgetting textbooks/calculators/tools for specific classes or losing them outright, trouble memorizing boring strings of information; such as dates, room numbers, phone numbers or basic and dull lists of facts, and zoning out in class instead of doing my work. I mostly had trouble with something if I found it boring/uninteresting. And if there was a component of getting work done over a course of time, I would always do it last minute. When I had enough adrenalin in my system to start the car engine of the task. I have never found a subject that I am curious about to be challanging. And I have always learned anything I am interested in at an accelerated pace. My friends are often shocked at how quickly I pick up a new skill and even outpace them in things they are good at. (Most recently, I became quite skilled at crochet.) And I have to remind them that I'm not the norm when it comes to learning. That there is nothing wrong with them. And I have to remind them what portions of the skills I attained came from their instruction. Once I have my vast list of mental illness under control, I will be unstopable. Also, I am bad at spelling. But that's mostly because I don't really care and just use spell check on anything important. I hypothesize that the smarter an adhd'er is, the more that the diagnosis gets missed. I wasn't diagnosed until my son was being evaluated.
Thank you for all your work, we are very fortunate that you decided to post these videos. I'm curious about the bell curve of ADHD being shifted to the left of the IQ distribution, suggesting that ADHD is slightly less common as IQ increases. Could it be that people with higher IQ are less impaired by ADHD because they are more able to compensate, therefore they don't seek diagnosis as readily as those with lower IQ? Meaning that if we could correct for undiagnosed ADHD in high IQ individuals, the distributions would be closer to identical? Are there studies that show ADHD is more likely to be undiagnosed in high IQ individuals?
in my clinical experience I think that could be the case for some highly intelligent adults. they find ways to compensate on their own which reduces some impairments and makes it less urgent to seek a diagnosis. but I haven’t seen research in the issue. try using Google Scholar to search the journals for those terms. thanks!
@@russellbarkleyphd2023 Hi, I guess I do fall into this category. I got tested and got into Mensa. Even though the group is a scam. I never had to study till I started uni, even then it was 2-3 days before exams. IQ came about 145 st 16 about 137 ish. I do think I found ways to compensate I believe. I still suffer with horrible sleeping patterns though.
@@russellbarkleyphd2023 We need to take into account the parents' cooperation as well. Some parents neglect there is an issue because the child is apparently performing in line with expectations (usually with some disciplinary pressure). Children and adolescents may even be explicitly asking for support, but if parents are not on board to get them assessed, it won't happen. "Squeaky wheel gets the grease", and gifted children are not squeaky enough. We see this in families where other siblings get diagnosed, but the gifted one is not even assessed. "They're fine," the parents think. Those of us who lived it know we were never fine.
Noted by school as gifted. Past assessment was mostly exams. The exams included writing essays, but they were ok because I had 1/2 an hour to churn one out. Many years later I was doing a Masters degree by coursework. Once again pretty much aced my exam and would have passed without the essay given with a three month lead time. I had one 2,000 word essay to submit to pass… I couldn’t do it. I was overwhelmed by all of the information to put it into a coherent narrative because I had too much time. (This was before diagnosis and meds btw)
I test as a creative genius in the 130s. I would have happily traded some IQ points for an earlier ADHD diagnosis. I used my big brain to mask/compensate and so only finally got diagnosed at 38 yrs old. It was a relief for me, gave me more self-compassion for the things I have previously been ashamed to admit I have difficulty with (that less intelligent people seem to find easy). It's frustrating to be smart and not able to focus and use my skills to do more good in the world. I have a hard time finishing anything or keeping a job :( Being recently medicated, seems to help me with focus, but not on focusing on the RIGHT things, lol
I can empathize. I didn’t receive my diagnosis for 40+ years. Moreover, I have often felt like a complete failure because my productivity fails to match my measured IQ. However, I am learning to extend to myself more grace.
i think there is also a correlation between chasing random patterns with improperly defined questions in iq tests, and in life, that is some tests like random matrix tests and sequence tests and so on, are often explained as having actual correct answers, and they simply don't. it measures a persons ability to find a simple pattern and to guess what the tester wants to hear. some of these matrix tests if you tried to apply rigor to them should have no definable answer to distinguish the options. this kind of blind pattern seeking is mostly what human ingenuity revolves around, but it also misses the more subtle analytical ability that is paramount in solving difficult real world problems in a real way, and not just a superficial way by fitting a pattern with no well motivated justification for it. a good example is the tendency of some academics to define their way to answers pretty much blindly, leading sometimes to very flawed arguments that work within a small novel system of reasoning they invented without really noticing. this is why the super high iq tests are basically not worth the paper they are written on, they measure the ability to spot a patter, which is for sure a part of what constitutes intelligence, but i would trust hard maths problems much more than most of these types of question sets.
Another thing to consider is the formed opinion of others about ADHD people when they are not diagnosed with ADHD. If you like geometry and you have ADHD and you are good at that because you see it as puzzle/game. The others will be more likely to believe that you are gifted in geometry.. And the ADHD person will believe it also. Considering his Disefficienies in other subjects..
Psychedelics are just an exceptional mental health breakthrough. It's quite fascinating how effective they are against depression and anxiety. Saved my life.
Can you help with the reliable source I would really appreciate it. Many people talk about mushrooms and psychedelics but nobody talks about where to get them. Very hard to get a reliable source here in Australia. Really need!
Yes, dr.sporesss. I have the same experience with anxiety, depression, PTSD and addiction and Mushrooms definitely made a huge huge difference to why am clean today.
Diagnosed ADHD at age four. IQ tested at age five and then again at age 16, both times found to be around 147-152, with special note that score might have been higher due to some very creative answers. I always excelled in school academically and yet was incredibly hyperactive and struggled with focus. I would agree with other commenters that the giftedness helped to compensate for the disability.
Throughout this video i was struck by questions around how these studies accounted for comorbidities. In particular with autism spectrum, since we know up to like 80% of those with asd, and ~50% of those with ADHD have both asd and autism, or AuDHD. I know you've made at least one video discussing AuDHD and your career really focused on ADHD but as someone with both my lived experience is really one where picking apart what is distinctly one or the other is impossible. So when i learn about studies like this in particular, I'm so curious if the researchers accounted for how comorbidities might be impacting participants responses.
my one problem with russle is he views adhd as something apart from autism because he only looks at the affects of adhd symtoms and recomends pills but those pills harmed every other aspect of my life and retarded my maturty and imunie system
When it comes to Ritalin it’s up to the parent to make sure the child takes the pills on time, stays hydrated and nourished, sleeps at the right time and is social but the parent is statistically likley to be autistic/adhd and noticing the skills needed to fully attend to their child and give them that “internal pot of gold”
I am a retired silicon valley software architect and musician (Systen Development Corp had psychologists study what major made good programmers, only one did, music). Having worked with world class programmers and musicians, I can tell you that at the highest level, it is a bunch of ADHD/autistic people. Seldom do you find an extremely good musician or programmer without "unusual" personality. The calm, socially compatible, responsible, steady etc ones are not the ones who can do the spectacular stuff. Lucky for me, having the ability meant I could live my life surrounded by similar people and my behavior that would get me expelled and condemned in "normal" life was accepted because I could do things that few could do. This was explicitly stated to me. A co-worker said "Jim is good at thinking out of the box." Another said "Jim doesn't know where the box is." I said "There's a box?" I think there is a connection between creativity, complex skills, and ADHD/autism. I could tell stories illustrating this for hours, but I will spare you. Next time you see a famous musician or programmer behaving unusually, remember I told you so.
Delaying long projects with a high degree of self-study till the very last day while having anxiety throughout the whole period and not knowing what to do were the bane of my existence in high school >,
I was branded as a "gifted" child in 6th grade, and it was probably what saved my life. Without all the testing and information about my intelligence at that early age (148 on the Stanford Binet), I probably would have gotten VERY angry at the world and people around me, because I couldn't understand why everyone else didn't see the world like I did, and weren't capable of processing complex concepts and ideas. Luckily, I had it beaten into my head for the next 6 years that I was "much smarter than most of my peers", so I was able to understand why people didn't see things the way I did. As an adult, my biggest challenge has been not asking my bosses how they successfully dress themselves and perform basic personal hygiene without constant adult supervision...
I think the value of having been diagnosed at 31 (Combined-Type with Working Memory and siultaneous processing problems) and being gifted is the humility that is absolutely *grounded* into you. On the other hand, I've had "trope fatigue" so bad before that I have to learn simple things at an oblique angle (in terms of Gospel Principles, the Lord has to "ambush" me with weird life experiences to learn something straightforward like Faith)
Are prenatal brain injuries that could lead to ADHD noticeable when the accident occurs? I'm curious in part because I have ADHD and my mother took a fall while pregnant, but we both seemed to be fine.
In 4th grade I tested at 130, I tested in the last 10 years and it's 127 modified for my age. All members of my family have higher than average IQs. I've had ADHD all my life and didn't know it. No one in the family cared to see if there was a problem, which there evidently was (I made poor grades). The negativity was soul crushing, depressing and caused eating disorders. I aced Algebra, finally, because I had a crush on a guy in the class and didn't want to look stupid (by then I was in the stupid class). It taught me that motivation is the key to helping ADHD children succeed.
My IQ isn't really spectacular (around 80th percentile, I believe [which is around 111-113]) so it has been hard to cope with academic deadlines but, I end up being interested in academic related interests, regardless. Then again, I should also make it clear that I have GAD and suffered a huge loss in my working memory after suffering several panic attacks that lead to me having chronic Depersonalisation-Derealisation Disorder for like nearly a year -- even now, I suffer from some of the side-effects that lead me to dissociate. There used to be a time when I would fare better with turning in a task within the last minute but, that ability has significantly declined over the past 5-6 years. This warranted in me getting an ADHD evaluation: I was also recommended to get an ASD evaluation since my GAD seems to be highly characterising my mental health profile. For the record, I'm 24 years old and currently very close to getting my Bachelor's degree in a hard-STEM field -- and aim to go to graduate school afterwards. In spite of having difficulties with paying attention and orienting with executing tasks efficiently, my interests always end up falling under categories that are considered to be conventionally difficult.
I was recently diagnosed with adhd I'm 29 when I was 13 I took a IQ test and scored 104 however I never thought It A true test but just a puzzle to solve a problem.
What I'm going with is that the "gifted" concept with ADHD is that people with ADHD are all over the board with what they are interested in. It is that breadth of experience and likelihood to apply that difference of view that they bring to the table is what creates the appearance of giftedness.
What do you mean gifted? I know that most of us adhders are unimaginably creative. And tend to have special interests or talents that most other people don't have. But I also figured like you said that IQ is kind of meaningless considering that we can't take tests well.
so true about the IQ testing...I avoided IQ tests like the plague and then finally did one and thought it was a scam because that was just stupidly simple to do. I couldn't believe it was a genuine test. On the other hand if you test me of EQ I am about as low on the scale as you can go. I had no idea about ADHD and struggled my entire life. Once I found out about ADHD the effect of the symptoms seem to be much greater now that I was aware of them.
Great overview, thank you! I wonder if the claims about people with adhd being more intelligent come from the mix of adhd+autism spectrum, which could not be diagnosed together. If one would compare folks with adhd+spectrum on giftedness vs adhd vs spectrum vs 'normal' and the results still would be that it's in the range, I would start to believe. Or maybe....from the folks who have adhd if you happen to be gifted, you might be vocal and energetic. If you happen to be not, you might not really land in a place to be heard. I guess? These ideas come to me because I was good at school...until I wasnt. So bascially up to ~13/15 years old I didn't even learn. And then for the next 15 years it was hell (I was no longer able to just know stuff from being in the class understanding the conceptcs, I would have to read....on demand.). And eventually I was diagnosed right now (30 yr old). And I guess the reason I stick to that "giftedness" deep in me, is my first half of life - "I am good!". But am I? For the love of god, just look at the other half - hot burning garbage. Could not sustain any hobby, any interest, copuld not read on demand etc. etc. Is taht "I am good!"? Nope. However, in regards to the intelectuall traits remarked in the last paper, I do possess them. But adhd efficiently disabled me from using them in any sensible manner (since I had troubles even choosing a career - and then sustaining the interest [which was {at least until I understood that it is adhd-driven feeling ,thus kind of 'fake'} necessary for me to read and do stuff!].
I'm gifted and have add. I did horrible in school - everything was taught rote, I was left feeling stupid. I kept trying to understand (organically) teachers could not do that. I learned more from the squirrels and trees I stared at out he windows. I have my weak points and I have my stellar points. Everyone is unique - society is fashioned for robots - ADD most definitely are NOT robots.
another thing that people dont take into account when doing this research is how the person grew up. did they have parents that helped them set up a routine that helps with adhd. for me i had no one so im learning how to do everything on my own all at the same time while attending college. i just wanna sleep all day. but i have a goal that i will not give up on no matter how hard it is. its too hard most of the time, besides when im high lol also THC helps but doesnt at the same time. learn who you are, learn where u fail and adapt to it. boutta pull an all nighter to finish two cybersecurity labs 😅😭😭😭
10:50 “Independently seeking…” This perfectly describes me. I love it (“hyperfocus”), so it, but this is sadly not how life works especially in the workplace. I really have a hard time following discussions. People appear to me slow, extremely uncreative and beating around the bushes. I don’t hate people or judge them (I am bad in other situations), but this is something which really is a constant frustration, and I am talking about graduates with accolades in part. No misogyny, just my personal struggle with circumstances.
Interestingly enough though, us ADHDer’s have a VERY amazing super power when it comes to abstract thought and seeing the large picture that non ADHDer’s, our abilities to come up with multiple ideas and concepts quicker that neural typical!
The second half of this video is surprising to me, because a lot of the traits mentioned do seem to overlap with my understanding of a typical ADHD profile. For example: Masters information quickly Generates a large number of ideas Likes intellectual challenge Can recall a wide range of knowledge (the "mine of useless information" stereotype) Independently seeks to discover the why and how of things Enjoys speculation and thinking about the future - These all seem to me to belong to the stereotype that an ADHD brain has so many thoughts whizzing around all at once, that we tend to make connections very rapidly and leave conversation partners lost several trains of thought ago - I'm sure that I've even seen this example in some of your books. They also seem illustrative to me of Dodson's "ICNU" theory, he claims that ADHD brains are motivated less by importance of a task, and more by Interest, Challenge, Novelty or Urgency, which seems to me just more of a pop-sciencey way to say that ADHD brains need more dopamine, because dopamine is spiked when encountering novelty, challenge, or interest - and urgency seems to be related to production of adrenaline fitting into the role that deplenished noradrenaline ought to be playing (at least, this is how my doctor explained nonstimulant medication to me). It seems to me at least anecdotally that ADHD folks are very prone to have curiosity about something and immediately want to go off on a spiral of discovery about this topic, leading to us still being on wikipedia at 3am after we had promised to go to bed at a sensible time for example. Is not afraid to be different Seeks unusual rather than conventional relationships Is sceptical of authoritarianism Questions arbitrary decisions Pushes for explanations These all seem familiar with the concept of neurodiversity; whether that's ADHD related, I don't know, they seem more like stereotypically autistic behaviours, but I think that "being different" whether consciously or not does seem to be a common trait for ADHDers, and certainly a lack of impulse control or "brain to mouth filter" could cause someone with ADHD to question authority in a situation where they really know that they should be quiet and listen. That IS a symptom on the DSM criteria. Is reluctant to practice skills already mastered Is easily bored with routine tasks The routine tasks one already highlighted by yourself, but I think the other point is potentially related/a different angle of the same thing as well, isn't it? It does seem clear that the motivational characteristics are opposite to the symptoms of ADHD, and the social one seems more aligned with extraversion than anything else in my opinion.
I agree with you on the notion that "suggests lots of ideas" is a trait of people with ADHD. I disagree about "intellectual challenge". I think you are misinterpreting this as intellectually stimulating. They are not synonymous. An intellectual problem that requires more effort and time would be less appealing to an ADHD individual unless it aligned with their personal interests. Can recall a wide range of knowledge has nothing to do with ADHD and more about how learned/well read/experienced the individual is. Also, ADHD hinders memory so the person might know a lot but be unable to recall or articulate the memory. Thinking about the future is not an ADHD trait, but daydreaming might be. One can daydream about things other than the future. These traits can also be signs of oppositional defiance disorder (ODD): - Is not afraid to be different - Seeks unusual rather than conventional relationships - Is skeptical of authoritarianism - Questions arbitrary decisions - Pushes for explanations As far as the ADHD symptoms, I think many of them go against the commonly cited functioning of an ADHD individual: - Is not afraid to be different (has no bearing on being ADHD but on upbringing and desire to fit in.) - Seeks unusual rather than conventional relationships (unable to handle conventional relationships due to the inability to follow-up or remember others) - Is skeptical of authoritarianism (this has nothing to do with ADHD other than possibly wanting to change topics or pursue owns interests) - Questions arbitrary decisions (This is another factor of upbringing/culture. Are ADHD people less likely to filter their responses or blurt out a response? Yes. Is this the same as questioning arbitrary decisions? No. However, blurting out ones ideas about an arbitrary decision may go against what is perceived to be a social norm and more common among people with ADHD). Pushes for explanations (ADHD could lead to pushing for more information but it could also lead people down a different rabbit hole. I think this comes down to the individual).
You know, I feel the same (I even posted about this here), however we don't know whether I and You are just both with ADHD and above intelectuall norm. My friend also have adhd and she still likes knowledge, she seems to be in some wierd way oblivious about relationship betweeen concepts, it as if it got deleted mid-talk in her. We both have adhd. I crave knowledge, she likes it. She messes facts and logical flow very often, I rarely (as I see it , ofc, but she agrees, but still.). So you know, we might (you and I) be very well just above the IQ norm, thus, we are able to get stimulation from intelectuall thingies. Dont know.
Definitely was thinking of these things too! I do wonder if the lower incidence rate of ADHD in gifted individuals might be because of this overlap - gifted people think that their symptoms of ADHD are actually indicators of giftedness, and hence never get tested even if they're struggling with executive function, coupled with the fact that gifted people with ADHD also tend to be chastised for not living up to their potential, resulting in their believing what is actually ADHD is just their lack of hard work and propensity towards "coasting". (source: recently diagnosed ADHD person who was also identified as a gifted child, family and I thought for decades that my inattention and constant boredom was a sign that the education system wasn't adequately catering to my giftedness, when it was actually not catering to my disability)
I think if we're particularly harshly lectured about our lack of conscientiousness and are told how much better life would be if we "just applied ourselves" that we might fixate on an academic subject for a time in order to overcompensate. I participated in an ADHD IQ evaluation done by grad students and although I tested into the gifted range on the actual IQ test, I also self-reported struggling with activities of daily living, relationships, and having to spend hours more in study time than my neurotypical peers.
I was kicked out of 5 different kindergarten classes and the school wanted to “test me” before trying the FINAL kindergarten class available. ( this was mid-70’s) . They found out by testing that I placed between the 5th and 6th grades in mathematics. Before giving the test he ask my parents if I showed any signs of being “ above” Intelligence . They said that I had taught myself math and blew the minds of the people that ran the grocery stores by telling them how much owed and the change when I was somewhere around three and a half. After testing and then trying to let me learn a new subject ( to see how fast I picked up on it), he told the school administration that he did not know if they had teachers smart enough to teach me ( parents took him literally, it I am sure he was just trying to make a point). That was in Akron, Ohio and they hired my mother to be a school teacher helper( did not want her getting a “ normal job” ) and found State funding to send her to college if she wanted to go ( until they found out she only had a 9th grade education). The school worked with me and my special issues. Race riots hit in the mid-70’s and my sister and mother almost got killed. We immediately moved back to Arkansas. I had severe dysgraphia and it caused MASSIVE issues at the Country school Egypt, Ar and they pounded me until I did nothing in class ( also needed glasses to see the blackboard and those were not provided until the middle of my 10th grade class). The school setup testing and the doctors tried ritalin on me in the 4th grade and it turned me into a zombie ( probably due to the VERY HIGH dosage). After the failed medication attempt, they declared me learning disabled . I taught myself electronics (at a repair technicians level) while I was 7 or 8. I used that to win State and nationals in trouble shooting in Vo-tech ( Appliance Service) . While I was in high school, I taught myself from Algebra to Cal 3 ( only took Algebra 1 officially, but got to play with the poor teachers mind 😂). The vo-tech teach somehow got ahold of my school records from Ohio and told several people I was a genius. I tried to tell him testing in in kindergarten was offset by MANY wasted years in a backwards school system and that the testing probably would not be as kind if I tested right then. Due to the dysgraphia I never wrote much, nor did I care for grammar, but found out I could memorize entire books in my early 20’s. This was insane especially when I would lose stuff over and over and up to 40 things a day ( counted one time!). Caught COVID and had to get help (ADHD meds) because of severe brain fog. Before I got the ADHD testing I re-studied Calculus 1 for a month and a half and took the Clep ( thanks to modern States!). Even with the extreme brain fog ( felt stupid), starting the test early when I thought I taking the practice exam, and then could not get the calculator to work, I still managed to pull off a score in the top 5 % of testing scores. At the ADHD testing my scores were generally in the mid-teens and 5% in word retention. The one are I aced was the verbal math and he had to discount it from the testing.( he said the way my brain processes math was extraordinary. Even with me still feeling stupid/brain fog, I guess the math head in me came out) . After 6 months on the meds, l tested in the mid-90’s of the national average in all but word retention….. I scored 76 % in that ( a 15 times increase!1). Vyvanse WORKS! I plan on taking an online course in linear Algebra to test the waters for me taking some college classes, but I realize I am not at the gifted level anymore; however, I worked a few problems from each section up to and including SVD and I think I will do fine in math ( writing is ANOTHER matter 😭)
I have a hypothesis, which is people with ADHD and a higher IQ more easily devise / learn / adapt compensatory strategies due to their higher IQ, which results in a less severe set of symptoms.
Very plausible, but in my experience that may only be the difference between crashing now or crashing 10 years down the line. I'm not sure one or the other is technically better, but I sure wish someone had diagnosed me with ADHD 10-20 years ago.
@@JoHouse533 I completely agree. With undiagnosed ADHD, I think you're going to crash at some point. For me, it was at University, and then in my late 40's, but despite that I have managed to start and grow a business which survives to this day, raise a family etc. I'm sure there is an amount of luck involved, and also credit to my wife. I also found it pretty exhausting, as one has to actively think one's way around things others find straightforward
I did a Wais-test in September, as part of a neuropsychiatric evaluation. I had a fever and am on a part time sick leave for burnout. I scored high on the verbal parts, but very low on some of the logic parts. I feel so stupid afterwards. But i really can't figure out the symbol/patterns. It's like my mind go totally blank. I never does well on tests where there is a time limit. And I ended up crying during the test out of stress and the feeling of being stupid. = as the evaluation showed I do have severe ADHD, and have struggled through my whole life (47 now). But in school I liked some of the more difficult parts of math (second grade equations) but never the ones involving triangles and stuff. I also have a bachelor's degree, with excellent grades in some courses and just above average in some. I heard my whole life "you're so bright/intelligent- you're just not trying hard enough". Teachers got frustrated with me after seeing me excel at something and then failing miserably. I could never explain what happend or why I suddenly didnt understand some simple thing. I always believed I had a brain injurie. The psychologist who conducted the neuropsychiatric evaluation actually said my results were so bad she believed I had a brain injury 😢 But a brain scan showed no brain damage. Now I'm trying to understand if I am stupid or if the test doesn't mesaure my giftedness accurately. (I've been told through my life by people that I'm unusually high in logic and very smart. In Uni the teachers often said my questions were too advanced and that I had to go to higher levels to get answers to them. So people always said I was intelligent= when people wasnt asking me "are you stupid?!" after I did something dumb, that is.. 🙈🙄
I was diagnosed with adhd in elementary school. I also was iq tested at 132. I have struggled my whole life from adhd and ended up drippi g out of school and becoming an alcoholic and drug addict. I have been sober for 17 years but still struggle socially, especially with holding jobs or getting along when I am at one. I know I am smart, but it's so frustrating. Due to my addict status, the common treatments, aka adderall, aren't options for me. I tried, and it brought me to my knees. Lifes tough.
I suspect there is a distorting effect whereby the most vocal ADHD self-advocates are more likely to be gifted and that gives an impression that those of us with ADHD are generally. There was a similar phenomenon when it was thought during the earlier days of increased recognition of autism that autistic children were more likely to be born to gifted parents. Eventually it was realised that it was the gifted or otherwise better equipped parents who were the ones most able to navigate the system and get a diagnosis and hopefully support for their child, and unfortunately many others were (likely still are) being denied this.
This was very helpful thanks. It bugs my ADHD that I can't see the far side of the bell curve. Maybe that's the OCD either way. I'm Deslexic too and gifted that's what led me to find your video. Only took me 32 years😅 thanks again. Very helpful
Undiagnosed Adhd and dyslexia until adulthood. I hated testing because most of them were timed. I need time to read and understand the question and often ran out if time to answer all questions. Test anxiety is a real thing!
I’d be more interested in evaluation than diagnosis rate. Being perceived as possibly having ADHD. It would also be clinically significant to determine the average age of evaluation/diagnosis for gifted vs non gifted. The lack of severity of symptoms along with other factors gives credence to the idea that students who are gifted can use their high IQ to compensate for some of the difficulties ADHD causes.
I think it's highly likely (to the point of being obvious) that the reduced severity of ADHD symptoms seen in gifted people is just a reflection of their ability to compensate. I don't believe the condition itself changes with higher intelligence, it's just that smarter people find more workarounds. Gifted people with ADHD are more likely to be diagnosed later, and it would make sense that they are under-diagnosed generally, due to flying under the radar in schools and managing to muddle their way through, while performing well below their capabilities.
This is exactly it. I was identified as highly gifted as a youth, and diagnosed with Combined Type ADHD at 44. I developed workarounds, and many times just flat out refused to do whatever it was I was being asked to do that I didn't "feel" like doing.
I agree! I just submitted a PhD earlier this year and was only diagnosed last year with ADHD at 38 years old. Without actually having done an IQ test, my Psychiatrist thinks I'm highly intelligent just for being able to do all the things I've done in my life not knowing I have ADHD (and having done most of a PhD without being diagnosed). And to be honest, I have always really f*cking struggled my whole life. My ADHD makes life really hard, but I think I must be gifted to have firstly completed a law degree (despite hating law), then changing careers to pursue a career in Psychology. I got a first class Honours in my Honours degree to then get into the PhD in Clinical Psychology, and I'm now currently studying a Master of Clinical Psychology, which is really difficult to get into. But I know I struggle more than my peers, and struggling with ADHD causes so much anxiety. Even though I have achieved what I have in my education and career, the day to day stuff is difficult, like making sure I eat properly and cleaning up, etc.
This. Some of the smartest folks on the spectrum or with ADD I know have struggled to mask so well to include me. What angers me most is when people see me masking and think its impossible for me to be Autistic or have other issues...no I just adapted to survive.
Absolutely
I was diagnosed ADHD at 29, and I was always a gifted kid, and did pretty well in school. I graduated highschool with an associate's degree with honors, and I never really had to study that hard. However, I struggled to stay organized, and I would forget or put off assignments a lot.
When I really started to have trouble with school was in university, because the classes were much more challenging and required much more executive function to succeed. I barely graduated with my bachelors degree.
I wonder at times what would have happened if I was diagnosed as a child, or got help as a teen. I wonder if college would have been more successful.
But I agree with the majority, the twice exceptional are very often overlioked because our giftedness makes it harder for people to identify our symptoms, because when they look at my report card, they see my efforts despite my ADHD.
I'm a freshly graduated doctor with an IQ of 140+. I always thought there was something wrong with me. While in med school I couldn't study if it wasn't 2,3 days before final exam. Passed all 5 years by studying a day before exam lol. Doesn't matter how much I tried I would always end up reading about other stuff(mostly history anthropology etc). My parents thought I'm just being super lazy. I just got diagnosed with ADHD and all of it makes so much more sense to me now
It’s amazing to be forced by an insatiable interest to study things you don’t know yet, but it’s frustrating when trying to do what anyone asks you to do because there is very little overlap.
@@jordanweimer788 exactly 💯
Haha,I Have ADHD Too Brother! (And Assalamualaikum Btw)
@@muhammadumariftikhar8003ADHD combined with a high IQ is extremely rare. What very often happens, is that high IQ is misdiagnosed as ADHD. In my opinion what happened to you, is that you simply didn't need more time for the studying and you subconsciously knew it. You must likely have a very wide interests range, therefore you read all the other stuff. If you look at it objectively, you were just amazingly efficient. Don't worry about it and just accept that your brain works differently. I have the same, although I'm more in the 130+ range and not 140+. See this as a superpower, let your brains do the work for you and don't force it. There is no need to force your brain into the "average" way of working, because that's simply not how you are.
Spirit is talking to you. Not in words. Mainstream medicine is not a good path. Just a wing of big pharma...
The method by which I was diagnosed with ADHD was by taking several task-based tests that measured my executive functioning, plus an IQ test, plus a questionnaire that ruled out other disorders. I scored a 148 on the IQ test, but my task scores were generally average or slightly below. This justified an ADHD diagnosis because there was a huge mismatch between my ability to think and my ability to do things.
In other words, I can function roughly as well as your average neurotypical person... because my intelligence is three standard deviations above the norm. That's what it takes to "make up for" my ADHD.
Does it actually make up for it? No. I'm absurdly good at some things and absurdly bad at others. I'll make a beautiful, elegant spreadsheet with all kinds of clever formulas to outline a budget along with any kind of financial goal-setting I could ever want... but I won't actually track my expenses or follow the budget. It's a miracle that I remember to pay most of my bills on time.
I have the same brain, thank heavens i medicate it and use self management techniques otherwise i would not be able to utilize my IQ at all.
Relate. Despite higher IQ - 132 - ADHD is exhausting to deal with day to day
@@sunshinelively IE spend half the day masking it so the other half of the day you look like you're a smart person who has their shit together?
@@neptronix exactly. Getting older, running out of gas. Diagnosed recently at age 59. It is a trip.
@@sunshinelively ..i say find something that tickles your neurons correctly and do your best anyway.
I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until I was 19 and I self diagnosed and then went in to get a formal diagnosis at my University Health center. They did an IQ test and were incredibly surprised because I had one of the worst cases of ADHD they had measured and one of the highest IQs they had measured.
I will say though, I would easily trade 15-20 IQ points to get rid of my ADHD. It is the most disabling thing I deal with in my life. Later on, I have now also been informally diagnosed as Autistic by my psychiatrist.
I don't think ADHD is correlated with IQ, but I do think there is perhaps an under diagnosis of high-IQ individuals because they are able to compensate and hide it for longer before showing they are disabled.
I will say that my brain seems to work more creatively and at its peak when I am unmedicated. I have more "Eureka!" moments essentially. However, I am less capable to follow through on that and be a productive member of a capitalist society unmedicated.
Loved this comment. That's exactly how it feels been in both boxes...
Was coming here to echo the same thing. I do suspect that there in an under diagnosis of people with high iqs who have built in compensatory mechanisms rather than seeking a diagnosis.
@@musuyanguba4226 Please don't spread medical misinformation.
>high IQ
>throws the word "capitalism" into things unnecessarily
hmmm
@@RelentlessBoater If you want my politics, I am an Anarcho-Syndicalist like Noam Chomsky. And there is no questioning he has one of the highest IQs of anyone alive right now.
The only relation that makes sense is that if you are highly intelligent it is easier to mask your symptoms and act "normal" for the longest period and then nobody understands why you have trouble handling your PhD, your family and your work, if you are so intelligent... Guess what? is even a miracle I got to grad school!
I feel that you called me out. I am in tenth year of PhD.
Studying economics in the toughest university of my country literally crippled me.
At the last year of my studies, I got into a major depression and I decided not to go with a higher education unless I am extremely passionate about it or I know for sure that it will enable me to make good amount of money.
it's been 10 years since my graduation, I couldn't have a career, still trying to "DECIDE" what's good for me. I always had a thing for languages, so I decided to learn German exactly 2 years ago, I've got to almost C1 level, but despite my solid academic background I am doomed to act as a call center agent, because whoever sees on my CV that I jumped from job to job, doesn't take me seriously.
So thank you adhd, for destroying my life.
I relate to this. I’m in a very demanding graduate program and feel like an outsider
It was a miracle I graduated HS!
@@zanngocI believe you can change your circumstances, I hope you keep trying. It won’t be easy, but I believe you can do it!
I got diagnosed with ADHD 3 years ago & got 125+ an IQ test, it made sense of all the struggles I had, where I am high achieving academically, perfectionist, interested in many things but find difficulty focusing on things that bore me or face burn out. I’m starting my masters in information technology management so I began to learn more about ways I can channel this in a conductive way.
....sounds like me...
Keep going. It's a curse but also a gift. Most important is to stay healthy = sleep + being active. It really helps.
When you get older you will see that being different is beneficial. Example, if 9 people can cook but only you know the recipe, you would be more valueable and payed more. We are different for a reason, that is bio diversity and not a disease.
I am a highly gifted adult as well as ADHD and the struggle is real. To sum it up, giftedness compensates for all the shortcomings ADHD brings along.
In short, I need people to work on my ideas, to do the implementation, while I am focused on the strategic and innovative concepts. I struggle really hard to implement them myself. Ideally this is a work symbiosis.
Your video on time perception helped me a lot to work on this.
Steve Jobs, is that you? ;)
I had a similar issues, being in a room full of brilliant people looking to me for direction but unable to complete the tasks without the assistance of others is confusing for all involved. When I was evaluated by my Neuropsychologist they classified me as gifted and ADHD. They explained just as Dr. Barkley did that the two aren't related but when I then went to get treatment for the ADHD the M.D. indicated I wasn't eligible for treatment as my IQ was compensating for the ADHD. They refused to treat my ADHD as it didn't put my cognitive abilities below the population norm. This went on for about 15 years until I couldn't handle the chronic fatigue and was finally able to find an M.D. willing to at least try medications to help manage the ADHD. I'm fortunate in that my medication is now able to counteract most of my ADHD symptoms and I no longer suffer from chronic fatigue. I also noticed my ability to manage negative emotions had greatly improved which made me a better husband and father, life changing to be honest.
I fell in the gifted range in school but never got good grades. I knew the info but could never get my act together turning work in & not losing things. My long term organization is so bad it's contageous. I've had a significant positive impact on every job I've had but often got fired for being late. I would happily trade 1/3 my iq to be able consistently do the basics.
Same. What people don’t realize is that executive function issues have cascading effects because they can so undermine someone’s confidence, and unconfident, jaded people of any intellect are particularly effective thinkers.
One day, I was with my kids on school picnic. Younger was in preschool at that time and older was first grade. We joined a table on which there were some puzzles to solve. My younger did all what was prepared for his age, then he got interested by something else. Teacher gave it to him, saying - that one is difficult. He solved it quickly. After that she told us, that he was first kid that day, who solved it. Much older kids tried and failed. Now he is in first grade, struggling to sit still and with doing 'boring' assigments. It is what it is ;)
Understood and empathize. But I'd rather the world change from being so basic and box like. We should be celebrated and accommodated better, not treated poorly and shunned
I was diagnosed gifted in 3rd grade with a Genius IQ, then at 40, i was diagnosed ADHD. Now at 42 I'm talking to people about Autism too.
I bet your genius comes from asd
Gifted part-time in 1st & 2nd grade, full-time 3rd grade onward. (IQ unknown, but had to be 135+.) Got diagnosed with ASD + ADHD at 41.
Many of the videos I watch talking about ASD and/or ADHD management/coping strategies end up being things I had figured out the hard way over the last three decades.
Ik what gifted means but why is it used in association with like super high iqs, isnt anything above average gifted??
@@jliller it's rough being an outlier, I'm glad you're still fighting friend!
@@romanov7723 I'm not sure what the criteria are fully, but I do know several IQ tests were administered, and several computer tests were taken.
There's been a recent surge in diagnosis of adhd. It's a better understood condition now, which means a lot of adults get the diagnosis later in life. This could play a role in the IQ results. With a whole group of people with less obvious symptoms missing from the test groups. Especially since there was also a correlation between less severe symptoms and gifted individuals, you could speculate that people with higher IQs are more likely to not get diagnosed, and therefor not be counted in the study.
Yup.
Exactly. I feel like this guy is trying to prove something and he doesn't see the holes in his own logic. I am 42 and just recently realized I am ADHD and used my giftedness to mask it my whole life. I'm exactly the person who would not have been counted as having both in those studies.
@@shiny_x3Me too.
Exactly!! The higher IQ gifted people who weren’t diagnosed with ADHD didn’t get included in the studies.
Also, I'm assuming obsessive technology consumption-driven pseudo ADHD is now a thing, which probably gets quite a few people misdiagnosed...
The significant missing component that he’s somehow overlooked is that the higher IQ gifted people who weren’t diagnosed with ADHD didn’t get included in the studies to see if ADHD is related to giftedness.
I suspect the tests screened participants for the presence of ADHD. I think we need to know more about the specifics of the methodologies used in each of these studies. Maybe he addressed that, but with my ADHD, ahhh I'm really not sure. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
They probably did because the study (if it's any good) probably has a control group and both groups were probably screened for ADHD symptoms and IQ and then cross referenced
Population bias
Very unlikely that they overlooked this in their methodology.
That's almost always accounted for in these studies. The data is weighted or the methods themselves take into account people who aren't diagnosed. There's probably a screening test at the beginning.
A possibility of this conflation is that gifted people with ADHD historically have tended to flock to academia because in theory you'd get more freedom and interesting problems to deal with, whereas neurotypical gifted people would just go make a boatload of money in finance or somewhere else and aren't considered as smart by society. This in my opinion is how the stereotype of the "absent-minded professor" developed. Einstein had ADHD, which made him a smart but a bad student, to the point that none of his professors accepted to recommend him for grad school. Many many academia stars were neurodivergent and/or mentally ill. This, in my opinion, led to romanticizing some disabilities and therefore trivializing them.
fantastic comment.
I just recently started taking my mental health seriously at the age of 30, my whole life has been basically of story of, "you have so much potential, but don't use it". Always made me feel like I wasn't trying hard enough. Finally decided I need to do something about it and got treatment for my ADHD, Now being more open to my condition, I started learning more, and hearing other's stories. I finally came across the term 2e(twice exceptional) and realized that this narrowed my life experiences even more, which compelled me to take an IQ test. I score an average of 138, and now most of my life is starting to make sense, along with no longer feeling so alone, as I'm now part of so many groups and pages that are full of other people that actually understand, can relate, and won't disregard my problems with a "try harder". As if I wouldn't if I actually could.
Cold showers and meditation helps me as well
Thank-you for debunking this. I was never comfortable with the whole ADHD superpower nonsense.
ADHD a pain in the ass. All the worst parts about myself that I have been trying to change all my life without success were largely due to the ADHD. Being diagnosed was a relief, but I'm not happy to have it. Just trying to learn my times tables in elementary school or formulas in high school was a nightmare which affected my math abilities to this day. Trying to work numbers in my head is like trying to grab smoke. Nevermind the the profound effect it had on my childhood relationships and the lifelong damage that caused which effect my relationships and mental heath even to today .
No. It's not a superpower. Talk like that makes it harder to be taken seriously. It might be comforting to some but I would rather focus on how I managed to be successful DESPITE the ADHD using the strategies I developed to compensate before I ever knew there was any problem, besides me being shitty at stuff.
Thank-you so much for all the hard work you do to bring awareness to the world. It's very much appreciated. Heck I only got diagnosed after watching one of your lectures which youtube seemed to think I needed to watch, which is a bit scary but best not to pull on that thread.
I have almost the same experience as you with math. My friend tutored me into math 75 from math 25 when I started college in my late 20's. While explaining a video game mechanic to that friend, and why one choice would be better than the other, he exclaimed "YOU JUST DID CALCULUS OUT LOUD YOU PR!CK." I can't math, but I can intuitively invent some portion of calculus. Superpower? I dunno, but it sure isn't nothing.
I totally relate especially with the math thing
I can absolutely relate!
I have a gifted child. She taught herself to read at 4, she has the vocabulary that rivals that of most graduate students, she intuitively understands algebra and in first grade is solving algebraic equations with multiple unknown variables, she's taking a coding class and from the onset she understood how to code even though before her first class she'd never even heard the term coding before but it just makes sense to her.
I'm above average intelligence and burnt out when I was a kid like many high ability kids do.
Had a 760 on the math portion of the SATs and I was hungover and had no prep.
Im doing my very best to steer her from the path I walked as a child
The good doctor is oversimplifying . At least in my experience -- high IQ with ADHD, have been told how smart I am my entire life (which is a problem itself) -- some of my strongest intelligence traits are deeply intertwined with the ADHD patterns in my brain. For example...
I'm way better than the average person at seeing unusual and abstract connections and patterns between seemingly unrelated things. Seeing the bigger picture, so to speak. A big part of this is my brain not being good at focusing -- not filtering out or suppressing errant thoughts and digressions.
Another example is "bottom line thinking" -- quickly cutting to the core of things, what really matters/is most important -- which is something that a lot of gifted ADHDers seem to be really good at. I also think this strength is inseparable from my ADHD, because I'm constantly craving the stimulation of the "aha" moment (and perhaps the social validation that comes with it). I'm bored with more mundane thinking, to the point of impatience, and am driven to find the deeper "how" and "why."
Dr. Barkley might be right about the larger population data. I only can speak from anecdotal experience. But towards the end of the video, he goes through the lists of "attributes" of intelligence & creativity, and then claims that none of them overlap with ADHD at all. Uh, did he not read the lists? "Displays imagination...generates a large number of ideas...seeks unusual rather than conventional relationships...questions arbitrary decisions...etc etc"
Ditto for me. I struggled in school, but people who know me think I'm exceptionally smart. I am not, but I am exceptionally good at some things, and exceptionally poor at others. I had difficulty following teachers. I generally run TH-cam educational videos AT 1.75 speed.
Yeah, I was already skeptical of the validly of his data given this problematic history of ADHD diagnosis. But when he started directly contradicting him with the lists of attributes, I checked out. I wonder if he’s just not that familiar with ADHD generally. Or maybe his knowledge of it is several decades old.
It gets complicated with a high IQ, ADHD and ASD and dyslexia. That list is of typical aspects of a high IQ many of which may or may not be present or as well developed across the spectrum of IQ/ADHD individuals. With a high IQ we learn faster, understand concepts, etc. when compared to the "average" ADHD individual on which the DSM criteria have to be set thus the continuing "You're too smart to have ADHD or Autism" fallacy that leaves so many of us fighting this additional battle to be recognized.
EXACTLY!! i am similar to you in my personal experience!😅 we would never get along in real life. haha. but i totally agree with your whole statement!
Your seeing the big picture is something "ungifted" people can do, as well. It's in about 25 percent of the population and is only because you happen to have the structured, linear mind type. That doesn't make you smarter than someone who is gifted in seeing all of the details or someone whose mind can jump from one thing to another without an obvious connection to most people and yet every thought is connected and simply faster than most people can comprehend. Who decides how IQ is tested? Who decides what variables are analyzed to come to a conclusion? Who decides what is intelligence? I do much of what you mentioned, too, yet have the mind type O mentioned last ... and an apparently average IQ.
Who came up with the measurement of intelligence?
Just want to thank you Dr. Barkley for taking the time to make these videos. They are very helpful for those of us busy with our clinical practices to make sure we are keeping up to date. Especially since your Guilford newsletter was discontinued.
I hope you also listen to the ADHD community and the idea of not seeing it as a disorder but as a neurotype. And the social model of disability.
Be careful relying on "experts", too many have a habit of getting into silo thinking i.e they fail to see or admit that their view may be proven incorrect. People like Russell Barkley and Gabor Mate have considerable knowledge but some of us with ASD and ADHD (2e) have a love hate relationship with their views. The greatest message that several of us took away from a graduate level course was "always be sceptical", some will not admit they were wrong or not publicly admit they goofed in some research or managed to get a poor research paper past peer review.
@@chriscohlmeyer4735you can’t compare Dr Barkley with Gabor Mate. Mate is spreading misinformation all over, Barley is not doing that. You can agree or disagree with his personal opinion but here he’s sharing articles based on science.
I tested above the 3rd standard deviation throughout my life. It was isolating to grow up like that bc everyone expected so much more of me and didn't want to hear about any struggles... then I got diagnosed at 41 w/ ADHD, after watching your 2012 lecture on ADHD being an executive function disorder. Life changing.. I feel like I was clearly understood for the first time and received the toolkit I was looking for my while life.
Meds + Mary Selanto's CBT + externalizing everything = victory. Thanks doc!
As someone who is gifted and has ADHD, my ADHD symptoms were masked by the traits that came with giftedness for most of my schooling. However whenever I socialised with other gifted people, my ADHD symptoms stuck out like a sore thumb. I've lost count of the times that I was told by my gifted peers that I was "the dumbest smart person they'd ever met" which often made me laugh and say "just because I'm smart doesn't necessarily mean that I think things through!"
And I feel like that's something a lot of people who received diagnosis later in life can relate to.
The combination of ADHD and being gifted does imho present a unique set of challenges. As positive as giftedness might be, and as much it might be used for masking and compensating ADHD by brute force computational power, it might also lead to especially severe problems. For instance: Chosing an occupation that is interesting, challenging and self fullfilling, is even more important for people with ADHD than for those without. But it might be darn near impossible or at least very difficult. A lot of those professions require years of studies planning persistence aso. And often also quite narrow focus. A clear problem when the aptitude for achieving long term goals is minimal, but the curiosity for scattering focus over a vast array of topics is endless 🤷.
A massive thank you to Dr Russel Barkley, for all immensely valuable contributions. The material that you so graciously have shared on TH-cam, has made a massive difference to me personaly, and I would guess, to countless others as well❣️🙏💐
I took an IQ test when I was at pretty much my lowest mental function in my entire life. It was part of an overall psychological assessment I requested when things really went off the rails. Even at that point my scores were eyebrow raising high. It was very very helpful to have the info. The range of scores in different areas really helped me to understand my difficulties, despite being a supposed genius in others. Kind of a world class sprinter with his shoes tied together sort of thing. It convinced me to finally spend the real time it takes to find the right medication and get true treatments in my life.
Nice! Althought I wish I was gifted I just have adhd and asd without the higher than normal iq to compensate, wish I wasnt conditioned to have such a strong frank sense of self then not being extroardinarily intelligance wouldnt be a problem. Altgought with higher IQ comes more loneliness maybe, yet I have that without being gifted lol. I have so much persononal satisfaction to loose by wanting to be something Im not.
@@nicbarth3838 just SAY you have an off the charts iq; that's all these other commenters are doing.
"eyebrow raising high" is such a good way to put it. I was somewhat uncomfortable with the assessment because I was dreading the confirmation that I'm a hopeless idiot. Then I saw the results and the eye brows definitely did rise. So unexpected. Ironically, although I wished I was "smart" all of my life, seeing that I apparently was all along just made me angry at myself that I squandered it, haha.
I went through a battery of IQ tests in the early 70s. Looking back, I can see how my ADHD skewed the testing. The psychologist who tested me and my siblings said my parents' divorce lowered our IQs. I find this topic undetermined until I see meta-analyses.
If you're traumatised by it, and your parents were often on your mind or some aspect of how your life was then, It possibly was interfering with your ability to focus...
I have to wonder how these numbers would stack up if every diagnosable person with ADHD were diagnosed. I can't help but wonder if an individual with both ADHD and a high I.Q. would be more likely to fall through the cracks of diagnosis than someone with a low I.Q., especially if they presented as inattentive in childhood. That would skew the numbers towards lower I.Q. in people with ADHD.
I agree 100%. I was diagnosed at 38. When I did IQ tests when younger my scores ranged from 134-154. My general results in early education meant I was labeled curious, imaginative, and a daydreamer - not distracted and/or hyper-focused.
I think I would sum up your post by saying there's likely a positive correlation between an increase in IQ and an increase in symptom masking or perception of symptoms from others that results in non-diagnosis
I'd love to see a study that could compare the early-age IQ scores of those with an early diagnosis of ADHD against the early-age IQ scores of those with a later-in-life diagnosis of ADHD.
Yes, I agree. I wasn't diagnosed until my early 40's, so my school age IQ tests would've been counted in the normal cohort. I definitely fell through the cracks, even though I was obviously dysfunctional. I believe at the time there was a strong bias against the idea that highly intelligent people could have learning disabilities.
So, I was failing school, despite being openly bright, curious, and intellectually engaged. I wasn't able to do homework because I was too disorganised (and eventually avoidant), and I wouldn't read long texts because I'm a slow reader (due to having to re-read everything multiple times, because I lose focus every 2 or 3 lines). I got by through absorbing everything verbally and visually in class. I didn't stand out as especially intelligent at my first high school, as it was a somewhat prestigious selective school where everyone was gifted. In that environment falling behind was what made you stand out. The school wasn't interested in supporting disabilities and was actually hostile to anyone that wasn't going to maintain their image through academic achievement. I was labelled lazy by everyone, bullied by students and teachers, and I ended up very depressed and smoking a lot of pot.
I was referred to a "youth centre" run by a local hospital at age 16 for counselling. There I was given an IQ test by a psychologist. My scores in every section of the test were right at the top of the chart, except for two sections which were at the average level, and one that was slightly above average (final score was 150). It was obvious to me that something was wrong and that such a distribution wasn't normal, but because my significantly reduced functioning in certain areas fell in the "normal range", they just shrugged it off. Nothing ever came of it. I may have "scored normal" in those areas, but I still couldn't function normally. My guess is that, as the individual tests only require a few minutes of focus I was able to brute force my way to a normal score, but a longer test would've given worse results.
I left the selective school at the end of that year and transferred to a local, regular high school. They even had a special stream for people with (more profound) learning disabilities, but they too didn't like the idea of obviously smart people (I stood out at this school) claiming to have difficulties. The teachers there called me lazy too. They too believed that an intelligent person unable to perform must suffer from a moral failing, not a disability. The refused to let me sit the final exam because I hadn't handed in all my assignments, so I never graduated high school. I've tried undertaking education a few times as an adult (I was accepted into a university on the strength of a personal statement), but anything vaguely academic I wasn't able to complete, despite being fully capable of learning and understanding the material. It has only been more practical courses, where all the learning and assessment happens in class, that I did well in. I haven't attempted it again since my diagnosis and starting treatment, but I realise now that I learn just fine. I just struggle to jump through the assessment hoops that educational institutions demand because they don't match my strengths. If they assessed my learning in the ways I can best demonstrate it, I would do well.
Sorry for the rambling post, I don't blame anyone who doesn't read it. I just see a lot of comments from smart people saying they skated through on sheer talent, and not much from the people who were severely impacted enough that even with a high IQ they couldn't get through school.
@@MichaelCavano I would like to see that study too. I think it would level things.
@@jananclowes351Standard deviations of 3 between the “knowledge/thinking” parts and the Executive Function parts of those tests, in the range from normal to hitting the test ceiling, seem to indicate giftedness + ADHD and really need to become widely recognised for this. I’ve seen it so many times now, and still, like you, these young people get no help because everything is at least normal, or just under at worst but not enough to pull the total test score below 140 (on the WISC with a ceiling of 145). And this in a world that’s busy digging its own grave and desperately needs wildly creative thinkers to help figure out if we still have a chance to clean up the mess we’ve made of this planet.
I managed to get myself through high school, later went to university, didn't manage to finish university but I also never really did attempt to study... Got diagnosed with ADHD at age 36.
Turns out I have an IQ of 136 😅 Which would explain my lack of need to study, but I just barely scraped by too though to be fair.
This is my story too and the story of so many gifted kids with ADHD.
135IQ and diagnosed at 36
@@lucieth555 brothers in struggle! 😅
Very familiar story. In my case, I didn’t develop serious study habits until college, but even then they were rife with procrastination. They were enough to get the degree, at least :P I was also lucky enough to have been diagnosed younger, and started taking meds in college.
@@FlaminPigz7 If I had had meds, I would absolutely have been able to study. That shit is so good it's criminal... Wait...
Appreciate the rich literature brought to the table. I have a few guesses regarding the data.
1. Adhd affect learning negatively and it may be difficult to control in studies
2. Researches may be influenced by selection biases as normally it's poor performing children and adults who gets sent for a diagnosis.
3. Adhds novelty seeking behavior may result in adhd individuals knowing a wide variety of subjects which can be interpreted as smart but doesn't reflect on iq tests
I wish educators knew sixty years what they know today.
I was a poor student , and assumed I was just dumb. My parents got me a tutor , one on one, and my marks soared.
As a teen I saw a psychologist to find out why. The results showed very high iQ.
Sixty years later, and retired from a demanding stressful career, I have not changed.
I cannot learn in a classroom environment. I can’t pay attention.
I have few if any skills my friends have, and simply cannot focus.
I think it also contributed to my marriage failure. Living with a partner with add is frustrating.
ADD is a curse, but God has saved me, and I have an excellent retired life.
I had pyloric stenosis when born I did not eat for six weeks after birth until surgery.
I suspect that may have contributed
Excellent video.
I just want to say thank you for what you do. I have a combined presentation, and one of the things the psychiatrist referred me to, in terms of evidence-based psychoeducation, was your content.
Good psychiatrist!
@@Handle8844 Yes, indeed. I am very grateful for him, and this content is immensely valuable.
Thanks! I think getting educated about ADHD is the first and most important step in treatment. I am so glad you found my channel.
Thanks to you i start at the age of 60 to have a better consciousness . Nothing compared to neuro typicals though . I feel my intelligence applies to different dominions respect an iq test intelligence . I have an insatiable curiosity about lots of subjects but I have dyscalculia .
Graduated high school in the bottom 10% of class (of 300). Received a probationary acceptance to a state college. Lifetime achievement of 3 degrees; 130 undergraduate hours, 124 graduate hours and 3 careers. My ADHD has been hiding in plain sight for 84 years.
Never ever think you’re stupid!
Many of us with ADHD have to live with the knowledge that we're not living up to our full cognitive potential. That is true whether we are gifted and successful or not. I don't think ADHD has no benefits whatsoever, but it certainly doesn't make me feel any sharper. I've always been a high achiever but I can't tell you how often my inner monologue is: "How did I miss that? I was trying so hard to pay attention. What's wrong with me?" So much of the ADHD experience is negative self-concept and I don't think being gifted changes that.
"IQ-test taking could be part of the problem" lol, indeed. When we all had to take an IQ test before attending secondary school, there was a 15-minute break in between and I played and ran around in this very exciting and huge new school building that had an elevator! I somehow ended up in the basement and couldn't find my way back to where the testing was. Somehow I managed to find the classroom of my older sister and she brought me back. But I missed half of the test at this point and handed it in extremely unfinished. The irony.
Just goes to show how important it was for YOU to take that IQ test...
@@keithmurray5791because, as we know, curiousity and wonder are definitely negatively correlative with intelligence 😅
@@gaugea probably would have had the highest score there..
Ugh, I hated those tests! Hey kid, we are going to pull you out of your normal routine, put you into an unfamiliar place with tons of new stimuli and expect you to sit still while you answer a bunch of questions that will determine your academic future. Minutes in and I was just as lost inside of my own head as you were in that school.
Hahahaaaa 😂 this is why I love ADHD, I laughed alot to my actions as well 🤪 also so creative, breath-taking, humorous, problem solving, social, fast, distracted by boring stuff and extra focused on interesting projects. hyper focused, philosophical, enjoying the little things and talking all day, I Love It ❤️
Also, because people sometimes dont realize this trap, the more you test your IQs guys the better you will get at taking the test. You're not getting smarter, you are mastering the specific logic puzzles they are asking you about.
Thanks for the video! This made me think a lot of the IQ testing I got during my ADHD assessment.
Afterwards, when I received my diagnosis and the psychologist got to discussing that part, she told me that she felt that it reflected strengths that may have allowed me to compensate at times in my life. I was late diagnosed at age 52 last fall.
I don't know if I would qualify as also being 'gifted'. At times I certainly don't feel that way, even though I sometimes identify with things associated with that. I'm not sure if she was implying that, and I don't think she would have wanted to guess.
During the IQ testing, I had a lot a trouble concentrating and focusing on the tests. So much so, that she apparently noticed and asked me if I'd like to do them another day. I informed her that it was normal for me with tests like these and waiting for another day would probably only delay my overall assessment.
My results were what she described as a 'spiky IQ profile'. Despite my difficulties in concentration, I scored in the 96th percentile for verbal reasoning, and in the 97th percentile for non-verbal/spatial and one of the sub-tests for the latter was in the 99th percentile. However, my 'processing speed' results were 'low-average' and my 'working memory' results were 'poor' (noticeably below the norm or average).
She identified my working memory results in particular with my diagnosis, stating that it may be a part of what she found in the results. So, in that regard and in my case it would indeed seem that my ADHD did bring down my overall IQ testng results.
Very interesting. I'm still waiting for a chance to get diagnosed, and have never taken a supervised IQ test. But I've done a few of the semi-accurate ones here and there over the years, and it seems I'm probably around 120. That is with all cognitive skills combined, my performance crashes when processing speed or working memory are heavily weighted. I did the public MENSA screener test, they seem to value processing speed above all and I tested at 100. Personally, this just tells me that IQ doesn't seem to be a particularly useful tool for anything besides bragging rights. I've noticed this "spiky profile" already as a young school kid, my reasoning was apparently great but I would do very poorly with time-sensitive tasks. Explains a lot in hindsight. Thanks for sharing your story!
Delayed processing and poor working memory can be related to cptsd, autism, or injury. I'm AuDhd, delayed processing, poor working memory, interoception, lexithymia, etc. I was this many (45) years old when I learned that
@@Thilosophocl3sInteresting...
A few people (3 to be precise) had asked me over a few years (before I got diagnosed) if I might be on the spectrum. Even a previous psychologist who referred me to the specialist had said, "Maybe also ask about an assessment for ASD, too...? Just in case..." But the specialist, when I saw her, felt pretty sure I wasn't also autistic and encouraged me to not invest the money (that she could have charged me) for a second assessment. I guess it was the number of symptoms that I had that overlap with the diagnostic criteria for ASD. But the specialist who assessed me felt it could all be explained by an ADHD diagnosis.
It's interesting sometimes, though... Sometimes... When some autistic individuals describe some of their experiences it sounds so familiar to me and a lot like my experiences. Again, maybe it's the big overlap of symptoms between the two diagnoses but I often find it a topic of interest for me.
I was sent to another psychologist because of some things I had described from my past during my ADHD assessment. That other psychologist said that she believed I had had some kind of subtle CPTSD, but she believed that I had somehow "worked through it" over the course of my lifetime and it didn't seem to require any further help at this point in my life.
Otherwise, it turns out I was wrong about my guess about what the specialist who assessed me thought regarding 'giftedness'. I had to consult with her for recommendations for workplace accommodations recently and the topic somehow came up. She told me, "No, you're gifted." OK.... I guess. I find it still feels kind of 'blurry' for me how people do or don't define that.
I think ADHD is absolutely the greatest give and the biggest curse.
I liken hyperfocus to telepathy.
It would be very useful (and maybe even fun) to read other people's thoughts, right? Now suppose you couldn't stop reading other people's thoughts, and can't control whose thoughts you were reading. Doesn't sound so useful or fun anymore, now does it?
Hyperfocus is great, except for not being able to control what you're focusing on.
Similarly, with ASD, attention to detail and noticing patterns can be really useful, but there's no off switch. There's a lot of noise in addition to the signal, plus you can't stop noticing all the little flaws and inconsistencies that nobody else pays attention to. It's maddening, in both meanings of the word (angry and crazy).
yes.
It is. If you somehow train yourself to menage your mind, it's super power. You can earn much more just because you are different. Example, if 9 people are great cookers but only you know all recipes, you will be extra rewarded. It's biodiversity not a disease. Biology make us different because it's only way for species to survive - you never know what's skills are going to be usefull. ADHD is so common, that it can't be disease. Do you think light blonde hair are disease? 😂 Nope, it's biodiversity.
As a child I was never been able to escape the fact that homework and tests were useless. I just couldn't care. I cared that my mother would be mad later if I did not perform, but when compared to days and months of homework? I'd still take a slap and no dinner over that.
I really want to know more about how ADHD severity is determined. If the only measure that can be tested is in terms of visible symptoms and negative outcomes, a slightly lower IQ would make sense. Others mentioned it but intelligence can allow for masking. For example, someone who is extremely distractible but because of quick wit they can fill in the blanks and infer what they missed. Wouldn't a truer test of severity be the raw distractibility/executive function impairment as opposed to how much you get found out making mistakes? Also, there are plenty of social differences that come with being ADHD and gifted that would not show up in the research studies covered here. For example higher expectations and even more questioning of effort and intention "Well you are obviously smart enough so you must just be lazy".
Not saying anything to disagree with Dr. Barkley, just adding some nuance.
I agree with Dr. Barkley; as one commenter below said, I'm also a medical doctor considered "gifted".
I agree that my giftedness has been balancing my adhd and has allowed me to pursue high level of education.
That being said, the mental toll to not drop out is tremendous and although the symptoms are reduced by giftedness, they show up massively during stressful moments and burn-out becomes almost habitual.
Diagnosis and medication is overall a relief.
This "you're just bored and lazy in school because you're smart" has cost me so fucking much. Like I wasn't even that smart in the first place it's just I could absorb more random information than other kids because I somehow got random tidbits when zoning out (I wasn't outwardly hyperactive) and because I was actually VERY entertained and thus motivated by learning new information, just couldn't do the methodical studying and homework part (hyperfixation style) as opposed to most kids who had little interest whether they studied or not. It's like my adhd symptoms masked my adhd and gave off the wrong impression.
no doubt about it that does happen a lot especially with the traditional learning model in American schools
If you could easily absorb more random information than other kids, then it is likely you do indeed have higher than average intelligence which is not being fully potentiated because of your difficulties with sustained mental focus.
@@michaels4255 I know I'm smart but not nearly as much as it seemed back then. in the same way my slow processing in some contexts does not make me that much less smart, the factors i mentioned acted the opposite way.
One day, I was with my kids on school picnic. Younger was in preschool at that time and older was first grade. We joined a table on which there were some puzzles to solve. My younger did all what was prepared for young school kids, then he got interested by something else. Teacher gave it to him, saying - that one is difficult. He solved it quickly. After that she told us, that he was first kid that day, who solved it. Much older kids tried and failed. Now he is in first grade, struggling to sit still and with doing 'boring' assigments. It is what it is ;)
People seem desperate to find positive aspects to their ailments; if it's not high IQ it's hyperfocus, creativity, ability to multitask, etc. Sometimes you're just dealt a bad hand.
Exactly. I find it so terribly condescending when people try to tell us that, "ADHD is a SUPERPOWER!!"
I mean. If managed properly (diagnosed,support systems,medicated potentially,therapy and/or coaching)it can be both. I always refer to it as my biggest strength and largest weakness, because it allows me to find solutions other people don’t find but also makes simple administration a literal task from hell that takes longer than rebuilding a server from scratch. But I can understand that others might not feel this way or don’t have the luck to be able to work in a field that is suited for their adhd. I hope you do find some positives in it, this all without saying that yes, indeed, sometimes it’s an amazingly shitty deal
Same. I have a higher IQ and more education than my siblings, but they don’t have ADHD and function better in life.
There is no denying that the impact of ADHD is mostly negative in the Western Society. But you can't Change how your brain works and instead of Living your whole life crying about how bad you have it you could just make the Best out of it and that includes seeing positive Aspects that come wirh it, no matter how small.
I believe MOST humans do this -
Silver lining falicy if you will
From a family with three being ADHD, those with, were always told in school were “very intelligent”. One was tested and recommended to gifted program but decided against it. All learned very easily but issues came in when “turning in work”. Got it done, just didn’t turn it in. All three. It was frustrating. All grown now, all started college, none finished. 🤷🏻♀️
A great review of the existing research, thanks as ever for your insight. :). I echo the hypotheses of a lot of my peers in these comments regarding the underdiagnosis of gifted individuals with ADHD, and how that may skew data.
I was determined to be gifted in 2nd grade after an IQ test that scored me above 130. I then was not diagnosed until age 22 despite, in retrospect, showing an extremely classic case of ADHD as it presents in girls from a very young age. To my knowledge I was never screened for it. This type of anecdote is so common that it's a joke in ADHD peer groups. I was extremely bright, very motivated to learn, consumed books ravenously, and showed strong leadership abilities. I just couldn't do my homework and being bored was physically painful.
By necessity this is all anecdote, but my parents recall being given resources after I was classed as gifted and moved to that class. These resources listed common symptoms of ADHD and Autism (executive dysfuncion, poor punctuality, sensory issues, deviant behavior) and assured them that they were very normal for gifted kids. It has been years and I'm only one case, and I'm relying on the words of people who didn't believe in ADHD for years anyway, but if this was common practice for any amount of time I would expect it to have a strong discouraging effect on parents seeking diagnosis at a time where there was already a strong stigma. This would have occurred for me in the mid to late 2000s.
If indeed these kids in gifted programs were missed and continue to be missed, a purely IQ data driven analysis will not suffice to discover definitively whether there is a connection. I would be interested to see clinical research that explores this in more detail.
I appreciate your acknowledgement of other factors beyond general intelligence swaying the IQ score, as we all know what an imperfect beast it is. Thank you again for all your work :)
I pretty much second this. This describes my life too well. Took my first IQ test at the age of 13 in which i scored 145, but i wasnt diagnosed with ADHD untill age 25.
I grew up before ADHD was recognized by most people. So the fact that I spaced out most of fourth grade just earned me a C in conduct. I tested gifted snd did pretty well in school, but as an adult in the working world I found it very hard to apply my intelligence. I don’t know if my ADHD got worse or the increased demands of adult life proved too difficult for my intelligence to work around.
Self-diagnosed myself in my mid-30s. Went to a psychiatrist, had my IQ measured across the board. Ended up in the 2nd-5th percentile in all areas apart from whatever test was measuring the working memory, where I dropped to the 50th percentile. Technically, still *average*, but a massive decrease from all other abilities, which was another proof of my diagnosis according to the psychiatrist. I hid my disorder fairly well, even got really decent grades in university (mostly because from year 3 on it was really interesting stuff across the board). Filled out an ADHD screening test once without any issues because self-reporting is biased. I simply did not know I had more problems starting and finishing tasks than everyone else. I just assumed everyone was struggling the same and/or I was simply lazy
what kind of tests did they administer?
@@ClaysonWoodIt was mostly a lot of tests measuring IQ (logical thinking in the first place), maths, history, language abilities, but also stuff like listening to a long, contrived story and then retelling it with as many details as you remember right after and, one more time, after 20-30 minutes or so (this is where I bombed badly). Also, a bunch of questionnaires that both I and my partner filled out covering the whole life from childhood. Someone else's perspective is crucial to them so that they don't rely on just your word and their observations. These days, I think, in some of the fancier places they can even put you in an MRT machine and see how your brain responds to boring or hard tasks and make further conclusions from that. I didn't do it because I thought it would be overkill (and it costs a lot more, I believe)
@@Limemill i should get tested too. Daily life is a struggle not going to lie.
@@ClaysonWoodGo for it. I got prescribed stimulant medication, but for me it doesn't get you that much more focused (it does a bit, but not crazy much). What it does for me though is it improves my emotional life by a large margin. As in, either I don't get emotionally triggered at all in situations where I otherwise would or, at the very least, I have a gap between the instinctive knee-jerk reaction and what I output in the world. I then have the ability to observe the reaction and realize that I'm about to overreact and that immediately puts it to bed somehow. Anyway, this is not quite what I expected, but is admittedly very helpful
Thanks for this. I thought a lot of my characteristics from the "giftedness" list actually came from me having ADHD, but now I understand that they're probably DESPITE the ADHD. Very interesting.
Age 46 was diagnosed 3 mos ago. I had my iq tested at 131 when I was younger and went to art school to focus on my creative side. I have had bouts of extreme anxiety and depression. ADHD meds work magic for me. No more anxiety or depression anymore. So thankful.
When I was teaching 8th grade I prepped and practice tested my students to prepare for the standardized tests. I'd already been taking a lot of practice tests myself to qualify for teaching other subjects. What I clearly noticed in my own test taking was about 10% errors. I knew the answer was B I intended to bubble in B, but somehow I bubbled in C. (The practice test B was circled, but the answer sheet C was bubbled in.) This was very consistent. I have ADHD, but I also always did very well on standardized tests (Of course I wondered what if I'd done 10% better?) So I set out to help my students avoid making this mistake. One problem. They weren't making this mistake. I don't think even one student was making this same error. It was just me. When I've noticed ADHD symptoms in my students usually they had terrible academic skills, were usually failing. Do I think ADHD negatively affects IQ scores? Apparently it does but I think the deficit is still in attention not in general intelligence. In fact I think the opposite is true. ADHD seems to speed up thinking, you seek novelty. Here's a test. That teacher who doesn't like me because I'm annoying so I can never do better than a C? Here's my chance to show them.
So whatever deficit Dr Barkley is talking about I think he's missing the point. I may know something, but because of my ADHD I might have trouble applying that knowledge or ability. That will lower my score, but that's not intelligence that's execution. Of course that goes into determining IQ. The remediation will of course be different from what's needed for a student who does have a lower IQ. And whatever basic intelligence maybe, being the 'smart kid' or the 'talented kid' ends by about age 12. After that it is work in, benefit out. If you're a smarty pants in elementary school, by the time you're in the 7th grade if you do not start studying and practicing, you're not going very far.
Having been certified to teach Gifted, etc, working with these children. Sure they are often thought of as being hyperactive. A first grade HG teacher I worked with said her first task with every student was peeling them off the wall and getting them to sit in the chair. One of her students, sweetest kid in the world, she had a meeting the mom. "I had to send N out of class today..." Mom starts crying. What's wrong? "Where is she going to go to school now?? Oh she would never be kicked out of school.... "She was kicked out of kindergarten, that's how she wound up here." Something else with HG kids. They seem to go through a morbid period. The adults and shrink were really worried about an HG child close to me. "He's talking about death." That's not normal in a 5 year old. Then I remembered. Oh. Yeah it is. I wouldn't trade ADHD for anything. I always feel like I'm off task, but then I look back and I've done all these amazing things.
Lol, "just like us" and "just like the rest of us" makes me laugh. I know you don't mean a single thing negative by it, and I think it's the most accurate and clearly understood wording to make the point, but it really makes me want to laugh at myself in a healthy way, like, "Oh well, it is what it is, so might as well laugh and not be upset by it." (I love your sincerity and the way you discuss adhd with such dignity for us who have it. You are an advocate for those with adhd, and our lives are so much better directly because of your work and dedication to the subject. Thank you!)
I think it’s too hard to tell because most of the time somebody with ADHD might not just have ADHD. I have taken many IQ tests, before medication and when I was younger I scored somewhere around 118. I had no idea how much my ADHD was disabling me until I was medicated for it at the age of 24. I have taken more IQ tests recently and most of them are around 135-140. The thing is, I’m not sure if I just have ADHD sometimes I also feel like my brain is just completely different than everybody else is. I’m in the process of trying to figure out if I might also have ASD. And it looks pretty likely that I just have both. Knowing this about myself, it’s been hard because when I was younger I truly believed I was unintelligent. But I had so many questions, I still have so many questions. I think that’s why I even do well on IQ tests. I’m really good at paying attention to small details it’s just some thing that my brain does and I enjoy the process of that. But I’m absolutely garbage when it comes to talking to people. It’s some thing I had to try very hard at. I just think that our brains are very strange. As you probably have guessed I am not the best with writing and grammar. But I’m really good with special awareness skills and building blueprints as well as 3-D building on the computer. I feel like the reason why I have done well on IQ tests recently is because I just use the skills very often. If you were to measure my social intelligence though I would rate really low. I don’t have very good social skills.
Definitely ASD. My son was lining up objects since a baby! You should get an assessment for your peace of mind. I suspect I may be too as I used to walk on my toes as a kid. And I hate clothing that is itchy.
I found a similar thing. 118 before meds. 138 after meds. Biggest difference was I wasn't as distracted taking the tests.
I find myself in both ends. When I was younger suddenly after a summer my mind stopped working as usual and everything seemed harder. Now I’m older and everything seems effortless as my mind has quieted a bit. I’m studying a second degree an my marks are excellent. I have to set every day reminders, alarms and have utensils duplicated and triplicated Around the house, the cars, the handbags, the floors. On the other hand I m very observant, have good memory for music and texts, I have won several prices writing in Spanish, English and in my first language. Now I implement everything the singing teacher says immediately cause have good propiaceptive sense…(but )I enjoy life my way. I do not need people to understand me anymore, what a relief!
Great content, I think a video going in-depth on past medications (and why they aren't used) or ones awaiting FDA approval for ADHD would be interesting. I'm sure that some of the releasing agents discovered over the years have more favorable releasing profiles than amphetamine and methylphenidate, no? For a disability as common as ADHD you really would think there would be as many novel medications as other dopaminergic dysregulations like parkinsons.
I got both, and while in elementary school I used to go to a gifted kids school for one day a week. Recalling memories from there, and of the gifted kids class I was in from age 12 to graduation, I definitely notice in the gifted environments a higher rate of characteristics in my peers that make my mind go to ADHD and its defining points, and I know many from the gifted programs who are diagnosed with it and/or autism and really aren't the type to "follow trends" for the fun of it. So while the science makes sense, it definitely doesn't line up with my experience.
One possible way to explain it is that schools are generally too demanding of all students to sit still and focus for extended periods of time, and in the gifted programs the teachers weren't as strict and allowed everyone more running around, missing of deadlines and impatience out of a lack of worry for our futures, since we were "gifted and therefore bound to succeed anyway" (which, by the way, isn't that clear at all). So the teachers relaxed and allowed us to be kids a whole lot more than they would in a regular class, where worries about not finishing school properly give rise to more discipline.
As for me, I got diagnosed while I was in elementary school. My attention span didn't last for a fraction of the lesson, but it was enough to finish the assigment. As to not waste energy, I learned to tune out during the explanation and only do things while there was an assignment, figuring it out as I go, and everyone thought I was only smart, until the whole sitting still part got me so agitated by the end of the schoolday that I'd lash out at people and get into fistfights over the smallest of things because I couldn't stand the tension buildup by the end of the day (and got shouted at for sprinting from one end of the school to the other while on break. Also no ball games allowed! bruh). I remember the teachers mega-confused, like, how is it that this straight A kid is getting sent home for punching someone the second time this week
IQ testing - ugh. I've been tested multiple times and get a different result every time. I've ranged from 143 - 172. I've been told I was dumb my whole life. I always thought I was stupid because if I was so smart, why do I fail so much? I was diagnosed last year (still not being treated for it) and it makes sense. It doesn't make me feel any better about myself because nothing has changed - only explained.
What were you like at school? What were your grades like?
@@MichaelAlvesMartins all A's until my sophomore year. Then I stopped caring. I still maintained a high GPA but I stopped trying.
@@woodruffmd I was the worst student until the fifth grade of elementary school, when I changed schools everything changed. In sixth grade, I started to have an interest in physics, mathematics, and literature. From then on, I started to be the best student in my school, with high grades. In eighth grade, the school principal wanted me to move up three grades in school. But in the course of time, many things happened; and due to my irresponsibility I was not accelerated. I was absent almost the entire year. Now, I'm only studying what interests me: Electronics, physics, mathematics, literature and chemistry.
@@MichaelAlvesMartins that's awesome.
I am fairly convinced that IQ alone is not a good indicator for intelligence. This happens after both my wife got our diagnosis.
Both of us have ADHD, and she has also ASD. Both of us also work in very mind-demanding fields: I am a journalist/writer, she's in academia. I had some achievements people correlate with high intelligence - I have learned to read very early, I am self-taught in a second language and with music.
However, my wife is in a whole different level: with little less than a month studying, she got high results in my country's nation-wide qualifying exams for Major in Economics. This test is not only painstakingly hard and complex, but people study well over a year to hit her level. Moreover, she also knows six languages - half of them, I must say, entirely self taught.
Both of us had very similar experiences in education: innatentive, gave not a single crap about homework, slept during class, you name it. And we still did good. However, with a single look at us you'd probably tell she's the smarty-pants. And you'd be right! People around always told she was the smartest, brightest person ever, and many feats along her life added to evidence.
Thing is, my average IQ scored 128. And her average score? 100. Which is not low to worldwide (or even our country) standards... but she expected more. And this result really broke her. Now, she thinks herself as a farse, claiming all her achievements were some twisted, reverse pygmalion effect.
Now, listening to Mr. Barkley, I can see some anedoctal evidence for his two thesis in our cases:
1) Her diagnosis also points much more impairment in cognitive functions when compared to mine (which also might, among many things, play a part on her IQ results);
2) She performs a lot better in sustained attention tasks and other areas she's impaired when medicated. This also holds true to me. When I received my diagnosis, the clinical professional told me my IQ would likely rank better. Seeing how much she has improved after meds, I have no doubts this would apply to her as well.
I have a friend who is also ASD, scored 150+ IQ and is a Mensa member, an institution he invited me to try and join years ago and that I failed the tests. He often brings me examples of people with high IQs who couldn't really achieve anything major in life. Oftentimes, in their forums, he sees topics such as: "how come I have such a high IQ and have nothing and my brother who scored lower IQ is a federal judge?"
This is not to say there is no "gifted" people in there. But as we note, for each successful case of correlating IQ to intelligence, we find others that contradict it. In my country, there is this famous musician that is a Mensa member and has 150+ IQ - and he gives Mensa a very bad name, as he is known for spilling lies and being dumb.
He puts IQ as a person's mental "hardware" capabilities, and what people do with it, the mind's "softwares". Sure, it might be nice to have good hardware, but what good does it do if all you do with it is run Minesweeper? And is it really necessary to have the highest "clocking speed" to run "programs" that really matters?
This is why I am not really sure IQ in itself is a good indicator for intelligence, "giftedness" or chances of success. Which is not to say it is useless at all. It just seems to me, at least for now, that this number cannot hold the weight we give it. And this is why I believe my wife will reach her goals, no matter how high are some digits in her tests.
A famous musician who's a Mensa member but is dumb at the same time? I know who you're talking about 😂
I highly recommend Veritasium's recent video on IQ. He talks about some of the things you bring up.
Good Insight Brother! Thank You For Sharing!
There are 3 things:
1) IQ test performance
2) IQ
3) Intelligence
These are all distinct. When we confuse them, we confuse our measurements for the things we measure.
❤❤❤
Am I the only one thinking 7-9 points of IQ is not a small difference?
If the average IQ is in the 120 range, it’s less than 10%. If it’s less than 10%, its not insignificant, but other things have a much bigger impact, such as the zip code you were raised in
@@francisturney2938 Good point.
@@arentak2773 I think he is also talking about it as a statistical measure on a population level. In one individual it could mean a world of difference, but if you look at an entrire bell curve distribution the difference my not be as dramatic. And like francis was pointing out, other factors, such as socioeconomic status, education, and upbringing, can also play a substantial role in shaping an individual's opportunities and outcomes.
I was 9th in my class in high school. I was an extremely good test taker, but I was absolutely awful at turning homework in on time, or at all. I was very regularly the most participative in class, especially in math/science/music, and often understood concepts long before my classmates, even in honors/AP classes, to the point I'd have to explain things to them 😅
Despite my apparent intelligence, I really struggled to maintain my grades. It was an absolute blessing to me that tests and in-school work were such a significant portion of my grades. Outside of school, it was such a struggle to get myself to do homework, especially if that homework was long or complex. No paper was ever written or usually even started earlier than the night before it was due. I did all of my best writing under a deadline. I hated it, but it was the only way it was going to get done.
I fully believe that this was due to undiagnosed ADHD. My mother told me the other day (for the first time) that I was evaluated for ADHD when I was very young, but was not diagnosed simply because I could sit and work on a task for hours. What I think that evaluation failed to take into account is that folks with ADHD can hyperfocus on things that are sufficiently engaging or interesting. Also, I believe that ADHD at the time did not include the inattentive subtype, so there was this expectation that ADHD meant you had to be hyperactive always.
I think the important thing to note here is that intelligence can act as a mask for ADHD symptoms. The percentage of the population that has undiagnosed ADHD is skewed toward those with higher IQ. In other words, any study that claims that ADHD has a correlation with lower IQ, is really saying that _diagnosed_ ADHD has a correlation with lower IQ. Certainly there is the possibility that all ADHD has that correlation, but it also seems apparent that there is a correlation between IQ and the ability to mask neurodivergence.
I'm 50+ years old physician,finished high school age 16, medical school age 22 (back in my country), been practicing medicine for 30 +'years back home and here is US, found that I have ADHD just few years ago when my 3rd child was diagnosed, knew my second one has moderate ADHD ( He got Phd in chemestry), I was never medicated.
I never consider myself nothing special. My IQ is above 125, and all my kids have ADHD are above 125 according to standardized testing. Have all these researchers, including you, consider that current data is based on outcomes from "products" of an education model that set neuro atypical individuals for failure.
hell yah thank youuuuu doctor!!
He also said that ADHD is caused by brain damage during pregnancy or labour. Whereas it's well research that it's running in families. Have two kids and one is a copy of its father - shy, smart, organized, gentle. Second is copy of me chaotic, energetic, smart, quick. I am pretty sure we both have ADHD, never diagnosed. I have math and economy master degree, great career as finance tech system expert. I've always consider myself smart. I had problems like learning just before deadlines, always forgeting things, doing 5 things same time resulting ruining something in between. Anyway here I am, doing good happy and succesfull. I don't know my IQ, I took online test few times, sometimes scored above 120, sometimes around 150. Not sure if those test are trustworhty. I would rate myself around 130. I am not genius for sure, just Smart.
When I was a kid, I was in gifted classes at first. I read at a college level in grade school. And it wasn't till middle and high school that I struggled. And my main struggles were doing homework on time, getting projects done on time, forgetting textbooks/calculators/tools for specific classes or losing them outright, trouble memorizing boring strings of information; such as dates, room numbers, phone numbers or basic and dull lists of facts, and zoning out in class instead of doing my work. I mostly had trouble with something if I found it boring/uninteresting. And if there was a component of getting work done over a course of time, I would always do it last minute. When I had enough adrenalin in my system to start the car engine of the task.
I have never found a subject that I am curious about to be challanging. And I have always learned anything I am interested in at an accelerated pace. My friends are often shocked at how quickly I pick up a new skill and even outpace them in things they are good at. (Most recently, I became quite skilled at crochet.) And I have to remind them that I'm not the norm when it comes to learning. That there is nothing wrong with them. And I have to remind them what portions of the skills I attained came from their instruction.
Once I have my vast list of mental illness under control, I will be unstopable. Also, I am bad at spelling. But that's mostly because I don't really care and just use spell check on anything important.
I hypothesize that the smarter an adhd'er is, the more that the diagnosis gets missed. I wasn't diagnosed until my son was being evaluated.
Thank you for all your work, we are very fortunate that you decided to post these videos. I'm curious about the bell curve of ADHD being shifted to the left of the IQ distribution, suggesting that ADHD is slightly less common as IQ increases. Could it be that people with higher IQ are less impaired by ADHD because they are more able to compensate, therefore they don't seek diagnosis as readily as those with lower IQ? Meaning that if we could correct for undiagnosed ADHD in high IQ individuals, the distributions would be closer to identical? Are there studies that show ADHD is more likely to be undiagnosed in high IQ individuals?
in my clinical experience I think that could be the case for some highly intelligent adults. they find ways to compensate on their own which reduces some impairments and makes it less urgent to seek a diagnosis. but I haven’t seen research in the issue. try using Google Scholar to search the journals for those terms. thanks!
@@russellbarkleyphd2023 Hi, I guess I do fall into this category. I got tested and got into Mensa. Even though the group is a scam. I never had to study till I started uni, even then it was 2-3 days before exams. IQ came about 145 st 16 about 137 ish. I do think I found ways to compensate I believe. I still suffer with horrible sleeping patterns though.
@@russellbarkleyphd2023 We need to take into account the parents' cooperation as well. Some parents neglect there is an issue because the child is apparently performing in line with expectations (usually with some disciplinary pressure). Children and adolescents may even be explicitly asking for support, but if parents are not on board to get them assessed, it won't happen.
"Squeaky wheel gets the grease", and gifted children are not squeaky enough. We see this in families where other siblings get diagnosed, but the gifted one is not even assessed. "They're fine," the parents think. Those of us who lived it know we were never fine.
Noted by school as gifted.
Past assessment was mostly exams. The exams included writing essays, but they were ok because I had 1/2 an hour to churn one out.
Many years later I was doing a Masters degree by coursework. Once again pretty much aced my exam and would have passed without the essay given with a three month lead time. I had one 2,000 word essay to submit to pass… I couldn’t do it. I was overwhelmed by all of the information to put it into a coherent narrative because I had too much time.
(This was before diagnosis and meds btw)
I test as a creative genius in the 130s. I would have happily traded some IQ points for an earlier ADHD diagnosis.
I used my big brain to mask/compensate and so only finally got diagnosed at 38 yrs old. It was a relief for me, gave me more self-compassion for the things I have previously been ashamed to admit I have difficulty with (that less intelligent people seem to find easy).
It's frustrating to be smart and not able to focus and use my skills to do more good in the world. I have a hard time finishing anything or keeping a job :(
Being recently medicated, seems to help me with focus, but not on focusing on the RIGHT things, lol
I can empathize. I didn’t receive my diagnosis for 40+ years. Moreover, I have often felt like a complete failure because my productivity fails to match my measured IQ. However, I am learning to extend to myself more grace.
Thank you for dispelling myths like this one around ADHD
i think there is also a correlation between chasing random patterns with improperly defined questions in iq tests, and in life, that is some tests like random matrix tests and sequence tests and so on, are often explained as having actual correct answers, and they simply don't. it measures a persons ability to find a simple pattern and to guess what the tester wants to hear. some of these matrix tests if you tried to apply rigor to them should have no definable answer to distinguish the options. this kind of blind pattern seeking is mostly what human ingenuity revolves around, but it also misses the more subtle analytical ability that is paramount in solving difficult real world problems in a real way, and not just a superficial way by fitting a pattern with no well motivated justification for it. a good example is the tendency of some academics to define their way to answers pretty much blindly, leading sometimes to very flawed arguments that work within a small novel system of reasoning they invented without really noticing. this is why the super high iq tests are basically not worth the paper they are written on, they measure the ability to spot a patter, which is for sure a part of what constitutes intelligence, but i would trust hard maths problems much more than most of these types of question sets.
Another thing to consider is the formed opinion of others about ADHD people when they are not diagnosed with ADHD. If you like geometry and you have ADHD and you are good at that because you see it as puzzle/game. The others will be more likely to believe that you are gifted in geometry.. And the ADHD person will believe it also. Considering his Disefficienies in other subjects..
Psychedelics are just an exceptional mental health breakthrough. It's quite fascinating how effective they are against depression and anxiety. Saved my life.
Can you help with the reliable source I would really appreciate it. Many people talk about mushrooms and psychedelics but nobody talks about where to get them. Very hard to get a reliable source here in Australia. Really need!
Yes, dr.sporesss. I have the same experience with anxiety, depression, PTSD and addiction and Mushrooms definitely made a huge huge difference to why am clean today.
Is he on instagram?
Yes he is. dr.sporesss
Microdosing helped me get out of the pit of my worst depressive episode, a three year long episode, enough to start working on my mental health.
Diagnosed ADHD at age four. IQ tested at age five and then again at age 16, both times found to be around 147-152, with special note that score might have been higher due to some very creative answers. I always excelled in school academically and yet was incredibly hyperactive and struggled with focus. I would agree with other commenters that the giftedness helped to compensate for the disability.
Throughout this video i was struck by questions around how these studies accounted for comorbidities. In particular with autism spectrum, since we know up to like 80% of those with asd, and ~50% of those with ADHD have both asd and autism, or AuDHD. I know you've made at least one video discussing AuDHD and your career really focused on ADHD but as someone with both my lived experience is really one where picking apart what is distinctly one or the other is impossible. So when i learn about studies like this in particular, I'm so curious if the researchers accounted for how comorbidities might be impacting participants responses.
my one problem with russle is he views adhd as something apart from autism because he only looks at the affects of adhd symtoms and recomends pills but those pills harmed every other aspect of my life and retarded my maturty and imunie system
When it comes to Ritalin it’s up to the parent to make sure the child takes the pills on time, stays hydrated and nourished, sleeps at the right time and is social but the parent is statistically likley to be autistic/adhd and noticing the skills needed to fully attend to their child and give them that “internal pot of gold”
I am a retired silicon valley software architect and musician (Systen Development Corp had psychologists study what major made good programmers, only one did, music). Having worked with world class programmers and musicians, I can tell you that at the highest level, it is a bunch of ADHD/autistic people. Seldom do you find an extremely good musician or programmer without "unusual" personality. The calm, socially compatible, responsible, steady etc ones are not the ones who can do the spectacular stuff. Lucky for me, having the ability meant I could live my life surrounded by similar people and my behavior that would get me expelled and condemned in "normal" life was accepted because I could do things that few could do. This was explicitly stated to me. A co-worker said "Jim is good at thinking out of the box." Another said "Jim doesn't know where the box is." I said "There's a box?" I think there is a connection between creativity, complex skills, and ADHD/autism. I could tell stories illustrating this for hours, but I will spare you. Next time you see a famous musician or programmer behaving unusually, remember I told you so.
You annectodal experience does nothing to change the estatistics.
I was a smart and gifted kid, until longer projects became a thing. I was undiagnosed and everyone thought I was lazy. I just couldn't do it
Delaying long projects with a high degree of self-study till the very last day while having anxiety throughout the whole period and not knowing what to do were the bane of my existence in high school >,
@@zainmushtaq4347 continuing to work on an already finished project instead of moving on to one of the 60 unfinished ones because brain 240p
I was branded as a "gifted" child in 6th grade, and it was probably what saved my life. Without all the testing and information about my intelligence at that early age (148 on the Stanford Binet), I probably would have gotten VERY angry at the world and people around me, because I couldn't understand why everyone else didn't see the world like I did, and weren't capable of processing complex concepts and ideas.
Luckily, I had it beaten into my head for the next 6 years that I was "much smarter than most of my peers", so I was able to understand why people didn't see things the way I did. As an adult, my biggest challenge has been not asking my bosses how they successfully dress themselves and perform basic personal hygiene without constant adult supervision...
Love this channel! Very helpful and interesting information. Keep up the good work!
I think the value of having been diagnosed at 31 (Combined-Type with Working Memory and siultaneous processing problems) and being gifted is the humility that is absolutely *grounded* into you. On the other hand, I've had "trope fatigue" so bad before that I have to learn simple things at an oblique angle (in terms of Gospel Principles, the Lord has to "ambush" me with weird life experiences to learn something straightforward like Faith)
Are prenatal brain injuries that could lead to ADHD noticeable when the accident occurs? I'm curious in part because I have ADHD and my mother took a fall while pregnant, but we both seemed to be fine.
In 4th grade I tested at 130, I tested in the last 10 years and it's 127 modified for my age. All members of my family have higher than average IQs. I've had ADHD all my life and didn't know it. No one in the family cared to see if there was a problem, which there evidently was (I made poor grades). The negativity was soul crushing, depressing and caused eating disorders. I aced Algebra, finally, because I had a crush on a guy in the class and didn't want to look stupid (by then I was in the stupid class). It taught me that motivation is the key to helping ADHD children succeed.
My IQ isn't really spectacular (around 80th percentile, I believe [which is around 111-113]) so it has been hard to cope with academic deadlines but, I end up being interested in academic related interests, regardless. Then again, I should also make it clear that I have GAD and suffered a huge loss in my working memory after suffering several panic attacks that lead to me having chronic Depersonalisation-Derealisation Disorder for like nearly a year -- even now, I suffer from some of the side-effects that lead me to dissociate.
There used to be a time when I would fare better with turning in a task within the last minute but, that ability has significantly declined over the past 5-6 years. This warranted in me getting an ADHD evaluation: I was also recommended to get an ASD evaluation since my GAD seems to be highly characterising my mental health profile.
For the record, I'm 24 years old and currently very close to getting my Bachelor's degree in a hard-STEM field -- and aim to go to graduate school afterwards. In spite of having difficulties with paying attention and orienting with executing tasks efficiently, my interests always end up falling under categories that are considered to be conventionally difficult.
I compensated for my ADHD symptoms by learning more about everything and myself on top of that working out and still working on my social skills
I was recently diagnosed with adhd I'm 29 when I was 13 I took a IQ test and scored 104 however I never thought It A true test but just a puzzle to solve a problem.
What I'm going with is that the "gifted" concept with ADHD is that people with ADHD are all over the board with what they are interested in. It is that breadth of experience and likelihood to apply that difference of view that they bring to the table is what creates the appearance of giftedness.
What do you mean gifted?
I know that most of us adhders are unimaginably creative.
And tend to have special interests or talents that most other people don't have.
But I also figured like you said that IQ is kind of meaningless considering that we can't take tests well.
so true about the IQ testing...I avoided IQ tests like the plague and then finally did one and thought it was a scam because that was just stupidly simple to do. I couldn't believe it was a genuine test. On the other hand if you test me of EQ I am about as low on the scale as you can go. I had no idea about ADHD and struggled my entire life. Once I found out about ADHD the effect of the symptoms seem to be much greater now that I was aware of them.
Great overview, thank you! I wonder if the claims about people with adhd being more intelligent come from the mix of adhd+autism spectrum, which could not be diagnosed together. If one would compare folks with adhd+spectrum on giftedness vs adhd vs spectrum vs 'normal' and the results still would be that it's in the range, I would start to believe. Or maybe....from the folks who have adhd if you happen to be gifted, you might be vocal and energetic. If you happen to be not, you might not really land in a place to be heard. I guess? These ideas come to me because I was good at school...until I wasnt. So bascially up to ~13/15 years old I didn't even learn. And then for the next 15 years it was hell (I was no longer able to just know stuff from being in the class understanding the conceptcs, I would have to read....on demand.). And eventually I was diagnosed right now (30 yr old). And I guess the reason I stick to that "giftedness" deep in me, is my first half of life - "I am good!". But am I? For the love of god, just look at the other half - hot burning garbage. Could not sustain any hobby, any interest, copuld not read on demand etc. etc. Is taht "I am good!"? Nope. However, in regards to the intelectuall traits remarked in the last paper, I do possess them. But adhd efficiently disabled me from using them in any sensible manner (since I had troubles even choosing a career - and then sustaining the interest [which was {at least until I understood that it is adhd-driven feeling ,thus kind of 'fake'} necessary for me to read and do stuff!].
I'm gifted and have add. I did horrible in school - everything was taught rote, I was left feeling stupid. I kept trying to understand (organically) teachers could not do that. I learned more from the squirrels and trees I stared at out he windows. I have my weak points and I have my stellar points. Everyone is unique - society is fashioned for robots - ADD most definitely are NOT robots.
another thing that people dont take into account when doing this research is how the person grew up. did they have parents that helped them set up a routine that helps with adhd. for me i had no one so im learning how to do everything on my own all at the same time while attending college. i just wanna sleep all day. but i have a goal that i will not give up on no matter how hard it is. its too hard most of the time, besides when im high lol also THC helps but doesnt at the same time. learn who you are, learn where u fail and adapt to it. boutta pull an all nighter to finish two cybersecurity labs 😅😭😭😭
10:50 “Independently seeking…” This perfectly describes me. I love it (“hyperfocus”), so it, but this is sadly not how life works especially in the workplace.
I really have a hard time following discussions. People appear to me slow, extremely uncreative and beating around the bushes. I don’t hate people or judge them (I am bad in other situations), but this is something which really is a constant frustration, and I am talking about graduates with accolades in part.
No misogyny, just my personal struggle with circumstances.
To sum up the video entirely: Intelligence and ADHD are not correlated
I'm left with the feeling there was a selection bias for ADHD for a long time.
Thank you very much, Dr. Barkley for all your videos! I’m learning a lot
Boy there sure are a lot of people with 140+ IQ in the comments, huh? 👁👄👁
They really gathered here lol
Interestingly enough though, us ADHDer’s have a VERY amazing super power when it comes to abstract thought and seeing the large picture that non ADHDer’s, our abilities to come up with multiple ideas and concepts quicker that neural typical!
The second half of this video is surprising to me, because a lot of the traits mentioned do seem to overlap with my understanding of a typical ADHD profile.
For example:
Masters information quickly
Generates a large number of ideas
Likes intellectual challenge
Can recall a wide range of knowledge (the "mine of useless information" stereotype)
Independently seeks to discover the why and how of things
Enjoys speculation and thinking about the future
- These all seem to me to belong to the stereotype that an ADHD brain has so many thoughts whizzing around all at once, that we tend to make connections very rapidly and leave conversation partners lost several trains of thought ago - I'm sure that I've even seen this example in some of your books.
They also seem illustrative to me of Dodson's "ICNU" theory, he claims that ADHD brains are motivated less by importance of a task, and more by Interest, Challenge, Novelty or Urgency, which seems to me just more of a pop-sciencey way to say that ADHD brains need more dopamine, because dopamine is spiked when encountering novelty, challenge, or interest - and urgency seems to be related to production of adrenaline fitting into the role that deplenished noradrenaline ought to be playing (at least, this is how my doctor explained nonstimulant medication to me).
It seems to me at least anecdotally that ADHD folks are very prone to have curiosity about something and immediately want to go off on a spiral of discovery about this topic, leading to us still being on wikipedia at 3am after we had promised to go to bed at a sensible time for example.
Is not afraid to be different
Seeks unusual rather than conventional relationships
Is sceptical of authoritarianism
Questions arbitrary decisions
Pushes for explanations
These all seem familiar with the concept of neurodiversity; whether that's ADHD related, I don't know, they seem more like stereotypically autistic behaviours, but I think that "being different" whether consciously or not does seem to be a common trait for ADHDers, and certainly a lack of impulse control or "brain to mouth filter" could cause someone with ADHD to question authority in a situation where they really know that they should be quiet and listen. That IS a symptom on the DSM criteria.
Is reluctant to practice skills already mastered
Is easily bored with routine tasks
The routine tasks one already highlighted by yourself, but I think the other point is potentially related/a different angle of the same thing as well, isn't it?
It does seem clear that the motivational characteristics are opposite to the symptoms of ADHD, and the social one seems more aligned with extraversion than anything else in my opinion.
I agree with you on the notion that "suggests lots of ideas" is a trait of people with ADHD. I disagree about "intellectual challenge". I think you are misinterpreting this as intellectually stimulating. They are not synonymous. An intellectual problem that requires more effort and time would be less appealing to an ADHD individual unless it aligned with their personal interests. Can recall a wide range of knowledge has nothing to do with ADHD and more about how learned/well read/experienced the individual is. Also, ADHD hinders memory so the person might know a lot but be unable to recall or articulate the memory. Thinking about the future is not an ADHD trait, but daydreaming might be. One can daydream about things other than the future.
These traits can also be signs of oppositional defiance disorder (ODD):
- Is not afraid to be different
- Seeks unusual rather than conventional relationships
- Is skeptical of authoritarianism
- Questions arbitrary decisions
- Pushes for explanations
As far as the ADHD symptoms, I think many of them go against the commonly cited functioning of an ADHD individual:
- Is not afraid to be different (has no bearing on being ADHD but on upbringing and desire to fit in.)
- Seeks unusual rather than conventional relationships (unable to handle conventional relationships due to the inability to follow-up or remember others)
- Is skeptical of authoritarianism (this has nothing to do with ADHD other than possibly wanting to change topics or pursue owns interests)
- Questions arbitrary decisions (This is another factor of upbringing/culture. Are ADHD people less likely to filter their responses or blurt out a response? Yes. Is this the same as questioning arbitrary decisions? No. However, blurting out ones ideas about an arbitrary decision may go against what is perceived to be a social norm and more common among people with ADHD).
Pushes for explanations (ADHD could lead to pushing for more information but it could also lead people down a different rabbit hole. I think this comes down to the individual).
You know, I feel the same (I even posted about this here), however we don't know whether I and You are just both with ADHD and above intelectuall norm. My friend also have adhd and she still likes knowledge, she seems to be in some wierd way oblivious about relationship betweeen concepts, it as if it got deleted mid-talk in her. We both have adhd. I crave knowledge, she likes it. She messes facts and logical flow very often, I rarely (as I see it , ofc, but she agrees, but still.). So you know, we might (you and I) be very well just above the IQ norm, thus, we are able to get stimulation from intelectuall thingies. Dont know.
Definitely was thinking of these things too! I do wonder if the lower incidence rate of ADHD in gifted individuals might be because of this overlap - gifted people think that their symptoms of ADHD are actually indicators of giftedness, and hence never get tested even if they're struggling with executive function, coupled with the fact that gifted people with ADHD also tend to be chastised for not living up to their potential, resulting in their believing what is actually ADHD is just their lack of hard work and propensity towards "coasting".
(source: recently diagnosed ADHD person who was also identified as a gifted child, family and I thought for decades that my inattention and constant boredom was a sign that the education system wasn't adequately catering to my giftedness, when it was actually not catering to my disability)
I think if we're particularly harshly lectured about our lack of conscientiousness and are told how much better life would be if we "just applied ourselves" that we might fixate on an academic subject for a time in order to overcompensate. I participated in an ADHD IQ evaluation done by grad students and although I tested into the gifted range on the actual IQ test, I also self-reported struggling with activities of daily living, relationships, and having to spend hours more in study time than my neurotypical peers.
I was kicked out of 5 different kindergarten classes and the school wanted to “test me” before trying the FINAL kindergarten class available. ( this was mid-70’s) . They found out by testing that I placed between the 5th and 6th grades in mathematics. Before giving the test he ask my parents if I showed any signs of being “ above” Intelligence . They said that I had taught myself math and blew the minds of the people that ran the grocery stores by telling them how much owed and the change when I was somewhere around three and a half. After testing and then trying to let me learn a new subject ( to see how fast I picked up on it), he told the school administration that he did not know if they had teachers smart enough to teach me ( parents took him literally, it I am sure he was just trying to make a point). That was in Akron, Ohio and they hired my mother to be a school teacher helper( did not want her getting a “ normal job” ) and found State funding to send her to college if she wanted to go ( until they found out she only had a 9th grade education). The school worked with me and my special issues.
Race riots hit in the mid-70’s and my sister and mother almost got killed. We immediately moved back to Arkansas. I had severe dysgraphia and it caused MASSIVE issues at the Country school Egypt, Ar and they pounded me until I did nothing in class ( also needed glasses to see the blackboard and those were not provided until the middle of my 10th grade class). The school setup testing and the doctors tried ritalin on me in the 4th grade and it turned me into a zombie ( probably due to the VERY HIGH dosage). After the failed medication attempt, they declared me learning disabled . I taught myself electronics (at a repair technicians level) while I was 7 or 8. I used that to win State and nationals in trouble shooting in Vo-tech ( Appliance Service) . While I was in high school, I taught myself from Algebra to Cal 3 ( only took Algebra 1 officially, but got to play with the poor teachers mind 😂). The vo-tech teach somehow got ahold of my school records from Ohio and told several people I was a genius. I tried to tell him testing in in kindergarten was offset by MANY wasted years in a backwards school system and that the testing probably would not be as kind if I tested right then.
Due to the dysgraphia I never wrote much, nor did I care for grammar, but found out I could memorize entire books in my early 20’s. This was insane especially when I would lose stuff over and over and up to 40 things a day ( counted one time!). Caught COVID and had to get help (ADHD meds) because of severe brain fog. Before I got the ADHD testing I re-studied Calculus 1 for a month and a half and took the Clep ( thanks to modern States!). Even with the extreme brain fog ( felt stupid), starting the test early when I thought I taking the practice exam, and then could not get the calculator to work, I still managed to pull off a score in the top 5 % of testing scores.
At the ADHD testing my scores were generally in the mid-teens and 5% in word retention. The one are I aced was the verbal math and he had to discount it from the testing.( he said the way my brain processes math was extraordinary. Even with me still feeling stupid/brain fog, I guess the math head in me came out) . After 6 months on the meds, l tested in the mid-90’s of the national average in all but word retention….. I scored 76 % in that ( a 15 times increase!1). Vyvanse WORKS!
I plan on taking an online course in linear Algebra to test the waters for me taking some college classes, but I realize I am not at the gifted level anymore; however, I worked a few problems from each section up to and including SVD and I think I will do fine in math ( writing is ANOTHER matter 😭)
I have a hypothesis, which is people with ADHD and a higher IQ more easily devise / learn / adapt compensatory strategies due to their higher IQ, which results in a less severe set of symptoms.
👋🏿🙋🏿♂️
Hi. That’s me.
Very plausible, but in my experience that may only be the difference between crashing now or crashing 10 years down the line. I'm not sure one or the other is technically better, but I sure wish someone had diagnosed me with ADHD 10-20 years ago.
@@JoHouse533 I completely agree. With undiagnosed ADHD, I think you're going to crash at some point. For me, it was at University, and then in my late 40's, but despite that I have managed to start and grow a business which survives to this day, raise a family etc. I'm sure there is an amount of luck involved, and also credit to my wife.
I also found it pretty exhausting, as one has to actively think one's way around things others find straightforward
I did a Wais-test in September, as part of a neuropsychiatric evaluation. I had a fever and am on a part time sick leave for burnout. I scored high on the verbal parts, but very low on some of the logic parts. I feel so stupid afterwards. But i really can't figure out the symbol/patterns. It's like my mind go totally blank. I never does well on tests where there is a time limit. And I ended up crying during the test out of stress and the feeling of being stupid. = as the evaluation showed I do have severe ADHD, and have struggled through my whole life (47 now).
But in school I liked some of the more difficult parts of math (second grade equations) but never the ones involving triangles and stuff. I also have a bachelor's degree, with excellent grades in some courses and just above average in some.
I heard my whole life "you're so bright/intelligent- you're just not trying hard enough". Teachers got frustrated with me after seeing me excel at something and then failing miserably. I could never explain what happend or why I suddenly didnt understand some simple thing. I always believed I had a brain injurie. The psychologist who conducted the neuropsychiatric evaluation actually said my results were so bad she believed I had a brain injury 😢 But a brain scan showed no brain damage.
Now I'm trying to understand if I am stupid or if the test doesn't mesaure my giftedness accurately. (I've been told through my life by people that I'm unusually high in logic and very smart. In Uni the teachers often said my questions were too advanced and that I had to go to higher levels to get answers to them. So people always said I was intelligent= when people wasnt asking me "are you stupid?!" after I did something dumb, that is.. 🙈🙄
I was diagnosed with adhd in elementary school. I also was iq tested at 132. I have struggled my whole life from adhd and ended up drippi g out of school and becoming an alcoholic and drug addict. I have been sober for 17 years but still struggle socially, especially with holding jobs or getting along when I am at one. I know I am smart, but it's so frustrating. Due to my addict status, the common treatments, aka adderall, aren't options for me. I tried, and it brought me to my knees. Lifes tough.
I suspect there is a distorting effect whereby the most vocal ADHD self-advocates are more likely to be gifted and that gives an impression that those of us with ADHD are generally. There was a similar phenomenon when it was thought during the earlier days of increased recognition of autism that autistic children were more likely to be born to gifted parents. Eventually it was realised that it was the gifted or otherwise better equipped parents who were the ones most able to navigate the system and get a diagnosis and hopefully support for their child, and unfortunately many others were (likely still are) being denied this.
This was very helpful thanks. It bugs my ADHD that I can't see the far side of the bell curve. Maybe that's the OCD either way. I'm Deslexic too and gifted that's what led me to find your video. Only took me 32 years😅 thanks again. Very helpful
Thank You For This. This Channel Is Amazing.
I was diagnosed at 21, started treatment at 22. Basically, I only really went after the diagnosis because I was failing college.
I was given a real IQ test and the result was 140. The person who gave me the test said My confidence holds me back.
Thank you for continuing to make such informative videos.
Undiagnosed Adhd and dyslexia until adulthood. I hated testing because most of them were timed. I need time to read and understand the question and often ran out if time to answer all questions. Test anxiety is a real thing!
I’d be more interested in evaluation than diagnosis rate. Being perceived as possibly having ADHD. It would also be clinically significant to determine the average age of evaluation/diagnosis for gifted vs non gifted. The lack of severity of symptoms along with other factors gives credence to the idea that students who are gifted can use their high IQ to compensate for some of the difficulties ADHD causes.