that moment when you’re incapable of experiencing empathy yourself, and then extrapolate that onto everybody else so that when they claim that they DO feel empathy, you assume they must be lying D:
@@moodyrick8503 Do.... do you need them to prove that light illuminates things, too, or are you actually going to expire on the hill that a generalization is actually fully accurate, including the one that said they are not? C'mon.... stop boomering.
sand makes bricks, homes, mortar, cement and can be used to hone, polish and sharpen things. The faith we're talking about is more like an elevator fart.
@@silverback3382 That's cute. Like a 4-year old wearing spaghetti as a hat, shitting his pants while eating glue with a spoon. Did you want to try a little harder, or is "meaningless, empty platitudes" your only schtick? Not a good look
How they think argument works: "God is real, debate me." OK can you please prove that? "You are woke and dumb" Uh... okaaay? Yes I am woke, but that doesn't answer the question. "You are woke and dumb" I guess you won't answer the question then. "Yay I won the argument!"
They somehow believe that being willing to be rational, and honest, at any point about their faith, is tantamount to admitting that they don't have good reasons to believe what they do. I wonder why they would feel that way...
It appears that he questions the authenticity of their faith at that time. In other words, "Yes, you professed belief, but you were not genuine Christians."
Finn sounds like a young and rather poorly educated believer who seems to think that he possesses some extremely interesting information that we will really want to hear. He doesn’t grasp that we’ve heard a thousand believer bro types speak about the same things and share the same “arguments.” His combination of arrogance with ignorance is laughable - for example his “belief” that “Matthew” was written by “Matthew.” The claim is ludicrous as that name was assigned years later and became a convention in the Middle Ages. It’s not like there is a signed text saying “I Matthew the apostle wrote this text okay.” Finn probably thinks the Bible poofed into existence one day. Maybe he doesn’t know that his Bible was largely assembled by the evil Catholics he doesn’t consider “true Christians”?” Lmfao
Yes, the moment they realize they're losing the argument is when they resort to ad hominem attacks and insults. It's the same thing with Trump supporters.
Mike is a social media personality who speaks to his Bible crowd. There is no room for critical thinking in Mikes world. Just ancient Hebrew thinking followed by a huge grin.
@@1989pacmaniac yeah i did miss that, and "suggest" is a much fairer term to use here. trans hate is being thrown around like candy on hellowheen. not a fan of that since it deprives it of its meaning and shields actual trans haters. which he very well might be if he thinks that´s what "we" think. he seems uninformed enough to make that at least probable.
@@symmetrie_bruch While it may not be 100% accurate to what they mean, I just choose to read such comments of that type as equalling "trans intolerance," which is close enough here. But you're right, if we're not careful with our word choices, it can start to lose its efficacy. Though, If one is inclusive of trans people, I don't think they would be asking the question the caller asked.
The problem is to become smart takes even more work... And as we all know the time it takes for an Atheist to explain something exceeds the attention span of a cultist.
@@louseveryann2181 you think that if you're an atheist means you will instantly understand everything that's told to you? lol your reply just proved my point. Smh
I think this guy is an idiot troll that thinks if he gets Matt to hang up on him that he "wins", especially when he said "you're one of those wokies" whatever the fuck that means, after claiming to have no idea who Matt is.
@@nitehawk86 that was really funny. I think dude was used to being a bully but also lacking introspection. Matt being a dick made him actually think for a second and he realized that he was being dishonest, paused and moved on. Sounded a lot like cognitive dissonance pain to me. " Me the bad guy!? Oh maybe :( so anyways can we talk about something else :'(."
1400? There's over 45,000 "official" denominations. (Honestly, I'd say there are a couple billion, because every christian has subtly different beliefs.)
He (caller) doesn't even know the meaning of the word. Nobody who uses it as a pejorative ever does. I can't even tell which brainrot is fueling which, at this point. I'd bet the core is the political conservatism. The religion is the "I am special because..." type of conspiracy theories these types use to put themselves in some type of "Holy Army" category. Just saying that it's clear this dude has bigger problems than religion that need to be addressed.
Woke is one of these words that was stuffed with all this other stuff that literally had nothing do with it. It was suppose to be about the black community originally. Its very interesting to see how that word now represents everything about left wing, atheism, democrats etc. Its so stupid.
i live in a place were we have absolutely not a single transgender. around, in a population of 30k, not one. we have atheists, i am one of them, with no transgender temptation, and i can bet, the first transgender will be a religious. awareness is always anti-religion
@@Arminius420 if Finn doesn't live in the US and hasn't got a good grip of how it is used in the US, *woke* probably represents something very different to him than what you might think as words can take on a different life in different places (as *woke* did in Germany)
16:49 The caller wants Ehrman to school Matt about the empty tomb. The caller is ignorant of the fact that Ehrman has not believe that we know where the tomb is or that Jesus was buried in a tomb for at least 10 years. He has a blog post on his website right now, dated April 4, 2014, where he mentions this explicitly. The caller needs to do better research, but I am not convinced he will since he set he is a presup.
When I was raised Catholic the three important virtues pounded into my brain by the nuns were faith, hope and charity. I understand the charity part but as a 76 year old skeptic, faith and hope cannot compete against testable, reliable facts.
@patriklindholm7576 Holy Spirit ... how I feel, even though feelings are high inaccurate or are aboriginal religions correct when they go into a trance for their deity?
I'd never even heard of it and checked....'Let's presume the most foundational aspect of my argument is true'. That's literally willing suspension of disbelief aka fiction and fantasy. Gets knocked down on 'I don't have proof the holy spirit is talking through him' but proceeds to go for 'but god def exists 100%' gold. What a waste of an education.
Ehrman no longer thinks the empty tomb is likely. He thinks the most likely burial of Jesus was in a mass grave, like the vast majority of Roman crucifixion victims. That’s the kryptonite question for apologetics: “What most likely happened?” Instead, they go with “what my fellow religious believers is not completely impossible, so let’s go ahead and believe. Whew, that was a close one.”
The appeal to authority logical fallacy with an argument based on no facts or evidence at all is a bad place to start. The proper place to start is did that stereotypical son of god savior character who shares similar attributes with at least 15 other religions even exist at all, or is it just a common fictional character type in typical myth making.
@@jimbob3030 that's not an argument that tends to lead anywhere useful. The fact that the archetype exists (and existed back then) makes it more likely that someone living as a traveling preacher at the time would play into those tropes, either consciously to improve a "scam" or unconsciously while sharing genuine belief, because that's what they expect someone in their position to do. It's not possible to be particularly sure about the existence of a low status person from this far back in history, and ultimately it doesn't matter. What does matter is were the magical events described carried out by Jesus, or any other person or collection of people? If it turned out Jesus was actually an amalgam of 20 different preachers over a period of 100 years, but the stories were all true in that context, the events would still serve as strong support for the Christian God. If we could prove that Jesus did exist, but not that he was magic then that doesn't move the needle on how likely God is to exist. The best argument I think is that the events described appear to be impossible, can anyone demonstrate that they are possible? If not, it would be unreasonable to believe that they happened as described.
@@TestTestGo "It's not possible to be particularly sure about the existence of a low status person from this far back in history, " It is when you learn it was never about a person that existed long ago but instead is about something you can still witness happening right over your head at night. There is one video in my playlists that covers this topic and only one which will show you what the stories like his were actually about. Taken literally these stories make no sense, understood as allegory that describes something else everyone could see play out in the night sky they finally do.
The sad thing is that these people are not even serious about what they claim to believe. If they really though this was the truth, they wouldn't dare be snarky about it.
This 100%. When I ask a christian about a bible verse and they reply with "i'm not familiar with that one" it blows my friggin' mind. If I ACTUALLY THOUGHT my "eternal soul" was dependent on how devout my belief was I would have memorized the entire bible front to back decades ago.
@@Lord.1337-7 They don't really believe it or follow it in like damn near any way. That's why god magically happens to agree with all their opinion regardless of what the bible says lol.
18:42 Everyone who's ever interacted with a small child suddenly realizing they're wrong will recognize this tone and forced laugh paired with a sudden change of subject
Kinda weird how the guy saying “you built your house on sand” spends the first half of the conversation conceding points that he feels strongly about but can’t back up at all.
Generally speaking, I stop talking with someone when its made clear that they are a presuppositionalist, its pointless trying to have a productive conversation someone who presupposes the answer to all questions absent any facts, and dishonestly tries to create arguments to fit their preconceived beliefs.
@@theboombody Who said it was limited? I would argue that lack of seriousness and dishonesty are prerequisites for religious apologists. Especially if they’re American and Christian
@@waynedexter Depends on how far they want to go. If they want to prove evolution is not scientifically valid, they're going to have a tough time. If they just want to shed light illuminating that secularism MAY not be the path to a complete utopia, they may have a point. But you're right. Most try to argue WAY too much and that makes it tough.
I had the opposite de-conversion from what this guys premise of the “hardened heart” is. I took on decades of cognitive dissonance because of my unwillingness to believe that I might be wrong about God and faith and what I was taught. It was only when I was finally willing to accept whatever the truth was, regardless of the consequences, that I was finally able to understand and accept modern science and human history.
Maybe there's a better method than science? But we can't shouldn't believe in a guess. Matt doesn't believe he might be wrong. Rather he doesn't have a belief in claimed God(s). He's often said: I finally checked the reason why I believed wasn't warranted, thus he stopped believing.
Finn was incredibly typical of the kind of dishonest Christians I encounter essentially every day in online debate. On a happier note, I love seeing David Fitzgerald's cats! They seem incredibly happy in his care.
It's truly miraculous that the 'holy spirit' happens to align with the particular prejudices of every person that claims to experience it, and those prejudices often conflict.
Well, that's a naive way to look at it. Any group has fringe wings that carries the thought too far. There are definitely some people who make " Woke" look stupid.
@@Olyfrun if someone starts whinging about "wokeness" they already aren't being civil. I've never heard it used by someone who didn't turn out to just be a bigot
The history of the Martyrs, the Relic hunters, and the connection between cities, and the tourist trade of the early pilgrims is a fascinating way to look at Christianity. The Romans also (and I am sure other people) went from temple to temple to pray, and they spent money in those towns (food and lodgings) After the Romans, Christianity was a cash cow for towns who could state they had the bones of a saint, or the foreskin of Jesus.
A wise man COULD build a solid house on sand, provided he drives pilings deep into the sand below the layer that shifts and moves with the tidal forces (assuming it is built on the shore of an ocean with tides). I've vacationed in some amazing places built on the sand so close to the ocean that the tides come in under the place I stayed in. The more you know 🌠😆
@@denverarnold6210 Guess you didn't drive your pilings deep enough 😆🤣 Good lesson for the next attempt as long as the first failure was taken as a learning experience... amirite?
09:10 _"Well.. we shouldn't go down that line because you're aware of things and I'm intentionally ignorant about as much as possible. Asleep, you might say. Or alternately, anti-Woke"_
Some believers are malicious. This caller was overconfident, prejudiced, dishonest about where he lived, and ran away like a little coward. This person is definitely someone to avoid and definitely not interesting to talk to.
I agree on all points but one. What did i miss that makes you think Finn was dishonest about where he lives? I wished i could say "yeah, he's not one of us", but we don't all sound like ww2 caricatures. I know lots of Christians who look to English speaking apologists, in hopes of defending their faith, with AI translation ready to compensate for any provincial dud's ineptitude.
@@bazingaburg8264 Doesn't sound like he has a German accent to me. So, unless he is an American who moved to Germany I think he his lying about where he is from. I don't have the best reference since I am from the U.S., however 1.) that accent sounds far more american than british or any other type of english accent to me and 2) I took German in high school where we had kids from Germany come visit us for a week and his accent sounds nothing like theirs.
I'd say he is an American and in a US military base in Germany. I'm not German, I'm from Europe and speak German. He really does not have an accent at all. I mean, most of us Europeans speak English with an US accents (because most of the things we see on TV are american), but you can usually hear at least a little bit of an accent unless it is a native speaker.
@@Kenvie2000it’s just listing where they’re calling from, not their country of origin. It’s actually really strange that you think someone can’t be calling from a place unless they have that accent 😅
@@AvaEFF It is certainly not a common thing for Americans to move to Germany. It isn't very easy to try to learn German in the U.S. so it would be a weird place to move. Is it impossible? No. Also thanks for the put down. Hope you have a good day.
He accuses David of using the argument from authority fallacy. He is using Mike Winger (a non-specialist in everything) as authority in bible translations. Fascinating.
I was raised going to a Southern Baptist College but in my fantasy inspired mind, no way could the Catholics build such amazing buildings and other art if they weren't divinely inspired and as I got older, to imply that non-Catholics didn't read the Bible but other Protestant kinds do, that's ridiculous. Some Protestants do, some Catholics do (but not without believer goggles on) but most of both categories do NOT. However, if a person of faith does read it critically, it falls apart. As it's said, the road to atheism is lined with Bibles that have been critically read.
I always find it incredible that people use ‘woke’ as a bad word, when it means to wake up from a dream to reality. To suddenly realize a truth. Finn can spend his life seeing his life through a dream, seeing things and situations that are only a warped shadow of reality. Living a fantasy. I’d rather be awake and see the world for the way it really is.
I've always found it funny that some christians think something that is empty is a good reason to believe something. Pretty much sums up their whole religion
There's a good point i heard recently. If Jesus' appearance were known in the beginning why would there be any empty tomb story. Ever hear of an empty tomb of Elvis? The empty tomb must have been the only evidence of the resurrection for a while for such a story to take hold.
wow this ending of the conversation with Finn is so similar to many conversations I have with people in the street who assume I need help because I am in a wheelchair, They interrupt me presupposing I need and want help I tell them no, they do not accept, I tell them to go away, they pretend to be nice ( like the "I love you matt" Finn said before hanging up) I tell them they are an arsehole And I probably look like an arse to all bystanders, I hope they take note and not bother me.
When actual arguments fail, the have to resort to attacks, provoking people, playing the victim and declaring victory for claiming to know things they can't.
he lied about bart When I was a Christian, of course I thought that was the case. But even when I had become an agnostic I thought it was probably a historical tradition: it’s found in all four Gospels, for example, and the fact that the stories indicate precisely it was *women* who found the tomb did not seem like something Christians would want to make up. (And so, as an agnostic, I had to come up with alternative explanations for why the tomb was empty. But…) I changed my mind. Most of my change came from my investigation of Roman practices of crucifixion. As it turns out, standard policy appears to have been to have left the bodies of corpses on the crosses to decompose, as part of their punishment. Decent burials were not allowed. I go into this matter at length in the book - at greater length than I want to excerpt here. But I can excerpt my new reflections on whether it is conceivable that any Christian story-tellers would invent the tradition that women found the tomb empty.
yes, that is also what Bart stated he believes - that Jesus was left on the cross to decompose, just as every other crucified person. As for "why would Christians invent that women found the empty tomb" Mark 16 sets it up: the women talking to each other that they won't be able to roll away the stone, it's so heavy! thereby trying to pre-empt any critic who might suggest, that men rolled it away - it was those weak women who went there first, surely they couldn't do it, so it must have been angels!
I love guys like this guy. If you believe in Christ, then you will find faith in Christ? If I believe in mermaids, I will start to be able to accept the truth for mermaids.
1:06 This is what i always find fascinating about christians, he says "Dave I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT YOU" then proceeds to say "Are you a former christian" OK, in what universe ... Do you get the answer to knowing about a person by asking if they are a christian ? Christians always do this, Everywhere it's like you make 1 comment a christian their first reply is "So.. Before we go ahead, are you a christian" Right ! so.... If i answer NO, You have a predetermined negative response if i answer YES, You have a predetermined Positive response but if i answer NO, You do not have a predetermined Positive response and if i answer YES, You do not have a predetermined Negative response so basically when a christians asks this questions, they are really asking WHICH RESPONSE DO I NEED TO USE IN THIS SITUATION ? Instead of understanding There is no pre determined response, You just need to bloody listen to the person and learn who they are and take it on face value as that
Finn is making the argument from fantasy land. He doesn’t know how to make an argument and second he doesn’t know the difference between feelings and evidence.
![เปิดบ้าน โคตรสวย ป๋องกพล รู้จักตั้งนาน เพิ่งรู้ว่ารวย!!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tmgCF_2HfYI/mqdefault.jpg)
Only a christian can insist empathy is bad, just like they think eternal torture is love
Words like "only" and "all" are usually not good for arguments regarding behavior. Usually easy to find exceptions.
@@theboombody All generalizations are false, including this one.
@@johnsperry9494 Citation required.
_Prove it._
that moment when you’re incapable of experiencing empathy yourself, and then extrapolate that onto everybody else so that when they claim that they DO feel empathy, you assume they must be lying D:
@@moodyrick8503 Do.... do you need them to prove that light illuminates things, too, or are you actually going to expire on the hill that a generalization is actually fully accurate, including the one that said they are not? C'mon.... stop boomering.
We agree: build generally on rock, not sand. My rock is demostrable, repeatable, testable facts & evidence. Your faith is sand.
That's such a good way to look at it.
sand makes bricks, homes, mortar, cement and can be used to hone, polish and sharpen things. The faith we're talking about is more like an elevator fart.
@@silverback3382 No, it's only empathy.
@@silverback3382 That's cute. Like a 4-year old wearing spaghetti as a hat, shitting his pants while eating glue with a spoon. Did you want to try a little harder, or is "meaningless, empty platitudes" your only schtick?
Not a good look
@silverback3382 Miracles are the same thing as magic and magic is make believe, which is what you're doing.
How they think argument works:
"God is real, debate me."
OK can you please prove that?
"You are woke and dumb"
Uh... okaaay? Yes I am woke, but that doesn't answer the question.
"You are woke and dumb"
I guess you won't answer the question then.
"Yay I won the argument!"
That is a great representation of this conversation. That's exactly what happened. He was confident and ignorant.
Yeah, that's usually how that goes with Christians like these.
They somehow believe that being willing to be rational, and honest, at any point about their faith, is tantamount to admitting that they don't have good reasons to believe what they do. I wonder why they would feel that way...
@@quotedotesHonestly, they're pitiful, cowardly, and despicable.
never play chess with a pigeon
they'll kick over the pieces,
shit on the board,
then fly off to brag about their victory to their flock
02:39 _"I think it's a matter of if you have a hardened heart or not"_
My cardiologist confirms this is not a problem
It's also a matter of a mushy brain or not
As Matt told Ray Comfort some time ago, I'd rather have a hardened heart than a hardened brain.
"Oh, you were devout? Interesting." Thinks to self: "That doesn't fit my narrative, gotta check my notes."
_"In case of desperation, break glass. (contains note reading "call them a Wookie")"_
It appears that he questions the authenticity of their faith at that time. In other words, "Yes, you professed belief, but you were not genuine Christians."
@@Mike_Jones281 Yes, but that's also true of every denomination of Christianity toward every other denomination of their own religion
@@Mike_Jones281 Thats text book definition of no true scotsman falacy
@@BaronVonQuiply Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!
Another wonderful display of Christian love.
Finn = Arrogant and ignorant; always the most confident callers.
It was clear as soon as he said “presupp“. Nothing goes together like arrogance, dishonesty and presupp apologetics.
@@TypographyGuru Your repeated yourself with the last two items in that list. 😉
Finn should have been fin two minutes into this agonizing "conversation".
you forgot diahonest
Finn sounds like a young and rather poorly educated believer who seems to think that he possesses some extremely interesting information that we will really want to hear. He doesn’t grasp that we’ve heard a thousand believer bro types speak about the same things and share the same “arguments.” His combination of arrogance with ignorance is laughable - for example his “belief” that “Matthew” was written by “Matthew.” The claim is ludicrous as that name was assigned years later and became a convention in the Middle Ages. It’s not like there is a signed text saying “I Matthew the apostle wrote this text okay.” Finn probably thinks the Bible poofed into existence one day. Maybe he doesn’t know that his Bible was largely assembled by the evil Catholics he doesn’t consider “true Christians”?” Lmfao
Man oh man, who comes at Matt unprepared like that? It’s like the dude read a brochure on karate, and immediately picked a fight with Bruce Lee.
The bigotry always comes out when they feel they are losing the debate.
Yes, the moment they realize they're losing the argument is when they resort to ad hominem attacks and insults. It's the same thing with Trump supporters.
Amazing stupidity, huh?
Using Mike Winger as a role model eliminates him from any meaningful conversation
Even Mike thinks that Mike Winger is the stupidest person in the world. 😂 He's so ineffectual, he can't really be called an apologist.
Mike is a social media personality who speaks to his Bible crowd. There is no room for critical thinking in Mikes world. Just ancient Hebrew thinking followed by a huge grin.
Mike is a preacher with a grin
minus any intelligent questioning of what he is reading.
Kip Winger > Mike Winger
Pinecreek's takedown of Mike Winger when he answered a hypothetical analogous to Noah's flood was one of the most epic moments I have seen.
The few minutes Finn was on the phone was time he could not lurk around a playground. Thanks Matt.
Love how with just a little push back the trans hate comes out.
could you give a timestamp ? must´ve missed that
@@symmetrie_bruchThe context for it starts at about the 9 minute mark, but the question that suggests it is at 10:12.
@@1989pacmaniac yeah i did miss that, and "suggest" is a much fairer term to use here. trans hate is being thrown around like candy on hellowheen. not a fan of that since it deprives it of its meaning and shields actual trans haters. which he very well might be if he thinks that´s what "we" think. he seems uninformed enough to make that at least probable.
@@symmetrie_bruch While it may not be 100% accurate to what they mean, I just choose to read such comments of that type as equalling "trans intolerance," which is close enough here. But you're right, if we're not careful with our word choices, it can start to lose its efficacy.
Though, If one is inclusive of trans people, I don't think they would be asking the question the caller asked.
@@symmetrie_bruchdude is obviously hating on trans people what are you talking about?
Bro wants you to move on when he's the one who brought "woke" into the conversation. 😂
The guy is really dumb and arrogant.
Tbf he was also gonna get smashed on that discussion if they got into it, just obviously not what the show is about.
“Can we please move away from one of the many distractions I’ve introduced into the conversation?”
@@Mmmmilo Pretty much.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” ― Benjamin Franklin
Favourite comment!
The problem is to become smart takes even more work... And as we all know the time it takes for an Atheist to explain something exceeds the attention span of a cultist.
@@louseveryann2181being an atheist or a theist has nothing to do with that.
@@duaneelliott5194
"being an atheist or a theist has nothing to do with that."
Because.............
@@louseveryann2181 you think that if you're an atheist means you will instantly understand everything that's told to you? lol your reply just proved my point. Smh
"did you read your bible or were you Catholic?" Immediately alienates like 50% of the entirety of the 1400 denominations to throw shade for no reason.
I think this guy is an idiot troll that thinks if he gets Matt to hang up on him that he "wins", especially when he said "you're one of those wokies" whatever the fuck that means, after claiming to have no idea who Matt is.
Also that Matt gets him to admit he is dishonest just so he can get to his "gotcha" is hilarious. I think that may be a first, lol.
@@nitehawk86 that was really funny. I think dude was used to being a bully but also lacking introspection. Matt being a dick made him actually think for a second and he realized that he was being dishonest, paused and moved on. Sounded a lot like cognitive dissonance pain to me. " Me the bad guy!? Oh maybe :( so anyways can we talk about something else :'(."
50.1% of all Christians worldwide call themselves Catholic
1400? There's over 45,000 "official" denominations. (Honestly, I'd say there are a couple billion, because every christian has subtly different beliefs.)
"Woke"... as compared to being "comatose".. or brain dead and empathetically bankrupt.
Moron comment of the day.....congratulations 😂
He (caller) doesn't even know the meaning of the word. Nobody who uses it as a pejorative ever does.
I can't even tell which brainrot is fueling which, at this point. I'd bet the core is the political conservatism. The religion is the "I am special because..." type of conspiracy theories these types use to put themselves in some type of "Holy Army" category.
Just saying that it's clear this dude has bigger problems than religion that need to be addressed.
Woke is one of these words that was stuffed with all this other stuff that literally had nothing do with it. It was suppose to be about the black community originally. Its very interesting to see how that word now represents everything about left wing, atheism, democrats etc. Its so stupid.
i live in a place were we have absolutely not a single transgender.
around, in a population of 30k, not one.
we have atheists, i am one of them, with no transgender temptation,
and i can bet, the first transgender will be a religious.
awareness is always anti-religion
@@Arminius420 if Finn doesn't live in the US and hasn't got a good grip of how it is used in the US, *woke* probably represents something very different to him than what you might think as words can take on a different life in different places (as *woke* did in Germany)
I just found out I'm woke..all this time I just thought I was good at history.
-Jon Stewart
16:49 The caller wants Ehrman to school Matt about the empty tomb.
The caller is ignorant of the fact that Ehrman has not believe that we know where the tomb is or that Jesus was buried in a tomb for at least 10 years. He has a blog post on his website right now, dated April 4, 2014, where he mentions this explicitly.
The caller needs to do better research, but I am not convinced he will since he set he is a presup.
If we could harness the power of “smug git-ness”, Finn could single handedly solve the global energy problem.
When I was raised Catholic the three important virtues pounded into my brain by the nuns were faith, hope and charity.
I understand the charity part but as a 76 year old skeptic, faith and hope cannot compete against testable, reliable facts.
Presuppositions ... if you suppose you're right, you think you're right, even if you're wrong.
Like when a man tells you he is a woman?
@patriklindholm7576 Holy Spirit ... how I feel, even though feelings are high inaccurate or are aboriginal religions correct when they go into a trance for their deity?
Religion melts people's minds
Sadly not restricted to just religion :-(
It's fascinating how presup apologetics appeal to a very specific kind of person.
Dumb ones?
I'd never even heard of it and checked....'Let's presume the most foundational aspect of my argument is true'. That's literally willing suspension of disbelief aka fiction and fantasy.
Gets knocked down on 'I don't have proof the holy spirit is talking through him' but proceeds to go for 'but god def exists 100%' gold.
What a waste of an education.
@@philiptoner8719 and bigoted people
Honestly, sometimes I can’t help but feel sorry for these fools who even dare to contemplate challenging Matt to anything at all.
Ehrman no longer thinks the empty tomb is likely. He thinks the most likely burial of Jesus was in a mass grave, like the vast majority of Roman crucifixion victims.
That’s the kryptonite question for apologetics: “What most likely happened?”
Instead, they go with “what my fellow religious believers is not completely impossible, so let’s go ahead and believe. Whew, that was a close one.”
The appeal to authority logical fallacy with an argument based on no facts or evidence at all is a bad place to start.
The proper place to start is did that stereotypical son of god savior character who shares similar attributes with at least 15 other religions even exist at all, or is it just a common fictional character type in typical myth making.
@@jimbob3030 that's not an argument that tends to lead anywhere useful. The fact that the archetype exists (and existed back then) makes it more likely that someone living as a traveling preacher at the time would play into those tropes, either consciously to improve a "scam" or unconsciously while sharing genuine belief, because that's what they expect someone in their position to do.
It's not possible to be particularly sure about the existence of a low status person from this far back in history, and ultimately it doesn't matter. What does matter is were the magical events described carried out by Jesus, or any other person or collection of people?
If it turned out Jesus was actually an amalgam of 20 different preachers over a period of 100 years, but the stories were all true in that context, the events would still serve as strong support for the Christian God.
If we could prove that Jesus did exist, but not that he was magic then that doesn't move the needle on how likely God is to exist.
The best argument I think is that the events described appear to be impossible, can anyone demonstrate that they are possible? If not, it would be unreasonable to believe that they happened as described.
@@TestTestGo "It's not possible to be particularly sure about the existence of a low status person from this far back in history, "
It is when you learn it was never about a person that existed long ago but instead is about something you can still witness happening right over your head at night.
There is one video in my playlists that covers this topic and only one which will show you what the stories like his were actually about.
Taken literally these stories make no sense, understood as allegory that describes something else everyone could see play out in the night sky they finally do.
@@TestTestGo Allegory:
A story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning.
Great, almost everyone else believes Jesus was buried in the tomb, why would there be guards at the tomb if he wasn’t buried there.
Ehrman doesn't even believe there was a tomb. He says part of crucifixion was to disgrace the victim and let their remains be devoured by scavengers.
You've been an illuminating light in my life for the last decade, Matt. Thanks so much for all you do!
Are you out of your Vulcan mind? (JK) :0)
The sad thing is that these people are not even serious about what they claim to believe. If they really though this was the truth, they wouldn't dare be snarky about it.
This 100%. When I ask a christian about a bible verse and they reply with "i'm not familiar with that one" it blows my friggin' mind. If I ACTUALLY THOUGHT my "eternal soul" was dependent on how devout my belief was I would have memorized the entire bible front to back decades ago.
@@Lord.1337-7 They don't really believe it or follow it in like damn near any way. That's why god magically happens to agree with all their opinion regardless of what the bible says lol.
18:42 Everyone who's ever interacted with a small child suddenly realizing they're wrong will recognize this tone and forced laugh paired with a sudden change of subject
Kinda weird how the guy saying “you built your house on sand” spends the first half of the conversation conceding points that he feels strongly about but can’t back up at all.
He built his house on ice, and I don’t mean permafrost.
Generally speaking, I stop talking with someone when its made clear that they are a presuppositionalist, its pointless trying to have a productive conversation someone who presupposes the answer to all questions absent any facts, and dishonestly tries to create arguments to fit their preconceived beliefs.
He comes right out with the No true Scotsman fallacy.
Apologists can be unserious and dishonest as they want to be
@@waynedexter But presups are always dishonest
Not limited to apologists.
@@theboombody Who said it was limited? I would argue that lack of seriousness and dishonesty are prerequisites for religious apologists. Especially if they’re American and Christian
@@waynedexter Depends on how far they want to go. If they want to prove evolution is not scientifically valid, they're going to have a tough time. If they just want to shed light illuminating that secularism MAY not be the path to a complete utopia, they may have a point. But you're right. Most try to argue WAY too much and that makes it tough.
Same old story. It never fails to entertain. Thanks for posting this!
Atheist and antitheist until the day that I die!
I love that David was paying his cat tax. :)
Holy crap you guys were on a roll, this guy earned everything he got.
I had the opposite de-conversion from what this guys premise of the “hardened heart” is. I took on decades of cognitive dissonance because of my unwillingness to believe that I might be wrong about God and faith and what I was taught. It was only when I was finally willing to accept whatever the truth was, regardless of the consequences, that I was finally able to understand and accept modern science and human history.
Maybe there's a better method than science? But we can't shouldn't believe in a guess.
Matt doesn't believe he might be wrong. Rather he doesn't have a belief in claimed God(s).
He's often said: I finally checked the reason why I believed wasn't warranted, thus he stopped believing.
The 3 Little Pigs also had words of wisdom. Not identical, but the same idea.
David’s cat made a great cameo!
There was another cat on the bed too - a black & white one. That house must be full of cats - awesome!
Stupid and smug great combo
As soon as he admitted to being a presup the call was over for me, they aren't going to be serious or honest in any discussion.
The moment Finn said he was a fan of presumption apologetics is the moment I stopped taking anything he had to say seriously.
"Whats your justification for Matthew being wrote by matthew?"
"The holy spirit"
Dr. Ehrman does not accept the empty tomb.
Finn was incredibly typical of the kind of dishonest Christians I encounter essentially every day in online debate.
On a happier note, I love seeing David Fitzgerald's cats! They seem incredibly happy in his care.
Wow. This caller was an utter failure. Painful! Glad I am on the right side of this!😅
Wow, a comment from you without any 🦫🦫🦫🦫
Thankyou Matt! Good rewatch. You guys 'Nailed' it! 👍🏼🌊💙💙💙🌊🥰✌🏽
So confident in his stupidity 😂
Messrs. Dunning and Kruger have a lot to say on that subject.
my make believe friend told me so. And this person has the right to vote. Geesus.
I don’t think that Finn realizes that Dr. Ehrman both not a mythicist and an agnostic atheist. Simultaneously. Wow, Finn, what a concept.
It's truly miraculous that the 'holy spirit' happens to align with the particular prejudices of every person that claims to experience it, and those prejudices often conflict.
The holy spirit talking to him 🤣
Nah, he probably just farted. Which smell about the same anyways, full of shit!
The moment someone uses woke as a insult you can safely ignore pretty much anything else they say
Facts
Well, that's a naive way to look at it. Any group has fringe wings that carries the thought too far. There are definitely some people who make " Woke" look stupid.
@@axer3515 Well, we can't have too much compassion and decency, that would be really bad.
/s
It's a red flag for sure, but I'm always willing to have a conversation with someone civil.
@@Olyfrun if someone starts whinging about "wokeness" they already aren't being civil. I've never heard it used by someone who didn't turn out to just be a bigot
I want to thank all the theists out there who keep calling into atheist talk shows/channels for the endless pleasurable laughter!
The history of the Martyrs, the Relic hunters, and the connection between cities, and the tourist trade of the early pilgrims is a fascinating way to look at Christianity. The Romans also (and I am sure other people) went from temple to temple to pray, and they spent money in those towns (food and lodgings) After the Romans, Christianity was a cash cow for towns who could state they had the bones of a saint, or the foreskin of Jesus.
Jesus was exceptionally well hung, because there were several churches that boasted a holy foreskin.
Matt, would you consider doing a post-clip unpack of some of the more (or all of the) salient take-aways? This was great, by the way
the moment someone throws a question at you instead of answering the one they were asked.
Ass pounding by the Master. Well done, Matt!
A wise man COULD build a solid house on sand, provided he drives pilings deep into the sand below the layer that shifts and moves with the tidal forces (assuming it is built on the shore of an ocean with tides). I've vacationed in some amazing places built on the sand so close to the ocean that the tides come in under the place I stayed in.
The more you know 🌠😆
Bingo!
I tried to build a castle, but it sank into the swamp...
@@denverarnold6210 Guess you didn't drive your pilings deep enough 😆🤣
Good lesson for the next attempt as long as the first failure was taken as a learning experience... amirite?
@@Grey-Troll too bad. You didn't seem to get the Monty Python reference.
OR you build the foundations like a (square/rectangular) ship, so it will float on top of the sand.
I tend to equate woke with being correct so every time someone tells me I am being woke I say thank you.
He doesn’t view being woke as a virtue. That’s all you need to know
I received the holy spirit though a bloke..... Jesus Christ, these people are very close to insane
@@FlowerBoots pretending to have a personal relationship with a fictional character just might qualify for that designation.
This comment could be interpreted in two opposite ways haha
I would argue that belief is certainly a sign of significant mental disability.
The line is very fine, yes indeed!
The holy spirit is their "get out of rational thinking" card.
09:10 _"Well.. we shouldn't go down that line because you're aware of things and I'm intentionally ignorant about as much as possible. Asleep, you might say. Or alternately, anti-Woke"_
Clearly not listening to either of them. Waiting for his turn to talk.
They're not following his script. Shame on them.
Some believers are malicious. This caller was overconfident, prejudiced, dishonest about where he lived, and ran away like a little coward. This person is definitely someone to avoid and definitely not interesting to talk to.
I agree on all points but one. What did i miss that makes you think Finn was dishonest about where he lives? I wished i could say "yeah, he's not one of us", but we don't all sound like ww2 caricatures. I know lots of Christians who look to English speaking apologists, in hopes of defending their faith, with AI translation ready to compensate for any provincial dud's ineptitude.
@@bazingaburg8264 Doesn't sound like he has a German accent to me. So, unless he is an American who moved to Germany I think he his lying about where he is from. I don't have the best reference since I am from the U.S., however 1.) that accent sounds far more american than british or any other type of english accent to me and 2) I took German in high school where we had kids from Germany come visit us for a week and his accent sounds nothing like theirs.
I'd say he is an American and in a US military base in Germany. I'm not German, I'm from Europe and speak German. He really does not have an accent at all. I mean, most of us Europeans speak English with an US accents (because most of the things we see on TV are american), but you can usually hear at least a little bit of an accent unless it is a native speaker.
@@Kenvie2000it’s just listing where they’re calling from, not their country of origin. It’s actually really strange that you think someone can’t be calling from a place unless they have that accent 😅
@@AvaEFF It is certainly not a common thing for Americans to move to Germany. It isn't very easy to try to learn German in the U.S. so it would be a weird place to move. Is it impossible? No. Also thanks for the put down. Hope you have a good day.
He accuses David of using the argument from authority fallacy. He is using Mike Winger (a non-specialist in everything) as authority in bible translations. Fascinating.
Oh the irony...
The Jesus of the gospels would be rejected by this guy as "woke" in a wink of a pigs eye.
*Poor Finn, He has **_"hardened his heart",_** against Allah.* lol
(Life in the Christian bubble)
Also against Zeus, Thor and Ra.
I hardened my liver in support of (not in opposition to) Bacchus/Dionysius.
@@dennish.7708 lol
Heh...better a hardened heart than a concrete-solid and narrow mind eh guys?
Did you read the Bible? YES!
Jesus was woke.
"Can we just talk about what I called for?" When he's the one who keeps asking off topic questions.
"definitely soft somewhere"
Hahahahahahaha Matt for the WIN!
Ps. Still laughing at that zinger lol
I'll just point out that modern concrete is made with sand
And not made of sand. So?
@@LukeSumIpsePatremTe Are you in an 80s cartoon right now?
@@LukeSumIpsePatremTemade of sand and water, both very fluid by themself
It has other stuff too.
As soon as I become financially capable - I will support you any day of the week - please continue your great work- all the way from South Africa
I was raised going to a Southern Baptist College but in my fantasy inspired mind, no way could the Catholics build such amazing buildings and other art if they weren't divinely inspired and as I got older, to imply that non-Catholics didn't read the Bible but other Protestant kinds do, that's ridiculous. Some Protestants do, some Catholics do (but not without believer goggles on) but most of both categories do NOT.
However, if a person of faith does read it critically, it falls apart.
As it's said, the road to atheism is lined with Bibles that have been critically read.
10:10 This is comedy gold i'm sorry, I'm sorry, I laughed so much.
Same. I had a good hard laugh
I always find it incredible that people use ‘woke’ as a bad word, when it means to wake up from a dream to reality. To suddenly realize a truth.
Finn can spend his life seeing his life through a dream, seeing things and situations that are only a warped shadow of reality. Living a fantasy.
I’d rather be awake and see the world for the way it really is.
words can have different meanings.
Rock = Facts and reality; Sand = Holy Ghost.
I've always found it funny that some christians think something that is empty is a good reason to believe something. Pretty much sums up their whole religion
There's a good point i heard recently. If Jesus' appearance were known in the beginning why would there be any empty tomb story. Ever hear of an empty tomb of Elvis? The empty tomb must have been the only evidence of the resurrection for a while for such a story to take hold.
Anytime I hear a conservative say "I've read more trans theory than you" I can't help but laugh. Either they're lying, or they're an egg in denial.
wow this ending of the conversation with Finn is so similar to many conversations I have with people in the street who assume I need help because I am in a wheelchair, They interrupt me presupposing I need and want help I tell them no, they do not accept, I tell them to go away, they pretend to be nice ( like the "I love you matt" Finn said before hanging up) I tell them they are an arsehole
And I probably look like an arse to all bystanders, I hope they take note and not bother me.
When actual arguments fail, the have to resort to attacks, provoking people, playing the victim and declaring victory for claiming to know things they can't.
Very bold of this man to assume he understands the circumstances to the hosts' atheism.
This call was hilarious. Finn is such a joke.
Jfc, Matt has more patience for fools than I do. This guy needs a dose of reality
20:11 _"Welcome to Costco. I love you."_
he lied about bart
When I was a Christian, of course I thought that was the case. But even when I had become an agnostic I thought it was probably a historical tradition: it’s found in all four Gospels, for example, and the fact that the stories indicate precisely it was *women* who found the tomb did not seem like something Christians would want to make up. (And so, as an agnostic, I had to come up with alternative explanations for why the tomb was empty. But…)
I changed my mind. Most of my change came from my investigation of Roman practices of crucifixion. As it turns out, standard policy appears to have been to have left the bodies of corpses on the crosses to decompose, as part of their punishment. Decent burials were not allowed. I go into this matter at length in the book - at greater length than I want to excerpt here. But I can excerpt my new reflections on whether it is conceivable that any Christian story-tellers would invent the tradition that women found the tomb empty.
yes, that is also what Bart stated he believes - that Jesus was left on the cross to decompose, just as every other crucified person.
As for "why would Christians invent that women found the empty tomb"
Mark 16 sets it up: the women talking to each other that they won't be able to roll away the stone, it's so heavy!
thereby trying to pre-empt any critic who might suggest, that men rolled it away - it was those weak women who went there first, surely they couldn't do it, so it must have been angels!
11:30 “Obviously we can’t know that. I know that.” Comedy gold.
Hardened heart? ‘Holy Spirit’? Finn talked a load of bollocks. 😂😂🤣
I love guys like this guy. If you believe in Christ, then you will find faith in Christ? If I believe in mermaids, I will start to be able to accept the truth for mermaids.
LOL never interrupt Matt when he’s on a riff! Good advice!
Yet another person who enters a battle of wits unarmed 🤦♀️ This guy needs a logic 101 course.
1:06 This is what i always find fascinating about christians, he says
"Dave I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT YOU"
then proceeds to say
"Are you a former christian"
OK, in what universe ... Do you get the answer to knowing about a person by asking if they are a christian ?
Christians always do this, Everywhere
it's like
you make 1 comment a christian
their first reply is
"So.. Before we go ahead, are you a christian"
Right !
so....
If i answer NO, You have a predetermined negative response
if i answer YES, You have a predetermined Positive response
but if i answer NO, You do not have a predetermined Positive response
and
if i answer YES, You do not have a predetermined Negative response
so basically when a christians asks this questions, they are really asking
WHICH RESPONSE DO I NEED TO USE IN THIS SITUATION ?
Instead of understanding
There is no pre determined response, You just need to bloody listen to the person and learn who they are
and take it on face value as that
This guy has to be a telemarketer!
I hardened my heart with the kiln of logic and quenched it with intellectual honesty.
This might be the most condescending person I've ever listened to
Finn: Makes a horrible argument or claim.
Matt: Destroys said argument or claim.
Finn: Ok, let's move on. I won't be changing my mind.
I love the cat!
Finn is telling us about his unresolved childhood.
Go, Matt!
The caller is a clown.
"personally, i read more trans theory than you" is probably code for: "i've jonked it to more trans porn than you." lol.
@@strider_hiryu850 ??? 🤨
"Not equipped to answer questions." Doesn't that describe so many people of "faith".
Finn is making the argument from fantasy land. He doesn’t know how to make an argument and second he doesn’t know the difference between feelings and evidence.