Interesting. That limb design and pad angle look very close to a Palmer, and Palmer recurves are well known for having an incredible balance of speed and smoothness.
Awesome video Kramer! At 8:00 You can see how long the string stays in contact with the recurve limb almost halfway thru the draw, you've effectively made this a short bow that then transitions into a longbow once the string lifts off the recurved limb and the non-bending tip levers start doing work. That thing looks like it would store a ton of energy, I bet if you shot a 12 GPP arrow with this bow and a 12 GPP arrow with a reflex deflex or generic longbow it would noticeably outperform it. That being said, there will be more hand shock unless you use a heavier arrow. 70% efficiency with a bow that stores 50 ft/lbs of energy means up to 15 ft/lbs aren't transferred to the arrow and need to be absorbed by the bow. 70% with a 65 ft/lbs bow leaves 19.5 ft/lbs . In order for hand shock to be the same (15 ft/lbs of remaining energy) the bow with 65 ft/lbs of stored energy will need to have an efficiency of 77% or more, which necessitates a heavier arrow. But that heavier arrow should have a similar FPS to, say, a 10 GPP out of a reflex deflex bow but with noticeably more kinetic energy and even more momentum by comparison.
This bow shoots exactly like a recurve. Of course it does. The more you recurve the better stack will be. This isn’t remotely ‘compound like’ behavior. It’s conpletely typical when recurving or even just reflexing the tips
My favorite one... "Today." Perfect ending! As someone who likes to own 1 or 2 of everything, rather than a single trophy winning bow, that has a lot of meaning.
I’ve wondered this as well about consistency at final inch of draw, and wonder if the temptation to underdraw too far is a bad thing. I struggle with how far I should be drawing. Would love to hear your take on this!
That bow wood be a lighter bow and probably easier to use, being wood for the main body and the stiff limbs of G10 or the new product of same design. My thought is finding cams of the right design made outside of Onida company would be the challenge. My thought would be improving the design of the cam-less model lever bow that Muzzy has made for the company in China where you can find the aftermarket model, making to improve the old design if major work needs to be done or fixing the old model showing the steps needed.
@caseysmith544 I'm thinking about just doing this myself. It's a very interesting concept, one made out of wood. I love the idea, though, for limbs made out of g10, that genius.
The last inch of draw gains less poundage, but you would need a draw length specific limb to get that advantage for different people. My draw is 26" so how would you get that to work for someone like me? The static recurve with the built in wedge of stiff but light material and deflexed limb pad works good, similar to an Asiatic design. I have found that bow length is critical to draw length when trying to find that sweet spot.
I can imagine how God makes us through tweaking each of our own traits like how you tweak the cores, risers, limbs and combining it all sorts of ways.... Then saying how perfect we are and then making another person anyway because it's just fun...
Have you even been to Long Beach Washington? The reason I ask is I remember meeting this guy looks just like you that built bows? He showed me how to build a bow. I have fell I love with it ever since then. Either way I would love to build a bow with you one day please.
Can i ask kramer, and there is a reason I ask u seem every similar to how my mind works, do you have adhd or something else? This is not meant at all mean or horribly but you remind me of me, and I'm currently getting diagnosed slowly in uk at age 34. I'm so sorry if this irrelevant but u remind me of myself so much i had to ask. I'm so apologetic of it is inappropriate. I love your channel too watch it from uk all the time buddy and we can't even bow hunt here. The skill of making bows out of wood and reading the wood is amazing to me. Best wishes for everything too, if this was inappropriate I am forever sorry too. Keep doing what you do man it's awesome 👌 p.s there is a thousand reasons I asked because u do everything I would do, and its not helped my life, I have the most hats off to you forever for creating a channel too man that's scared me forever lol 😅 please don't hate me for asking just I don't often ever see someone that acts like myself I live in a rural area and see little people. A lot of reasons I asked please forgive me if I'm totally wrong. Much love from uk buddy ❤️ what a channel
Not really. That's almost like asking if you can make a composite bow out of just wood. While, technically, a compound bow is just a bow that uses sometimes adjustable cams and, basically a block and tackle, for mechanical advantage, it also combines the use of different materials with that mechanical advantage to provide an easier draw with maximum power on the release. I suppose a wood-only compound bow might be possible, but modern compound bows are designed to go past the limits of what wood is capable of providing but still being possible for the average human being to be able to use. Wood would either be too soft to provide the power or so hard that it would shatter under the shock when the string is released, much like a normal bow when you dry-fire it.
Hey @Kramer Ammons i am Hendrik from Germany i got a question about Shatterproof Archery. Did your Brother plan to build new The BONES - Reflex Deflex Longbow next Season 2025 ? I plan to buy one next Spring. Im a LH Sportsman an it is sometimes very difficult for me to get some REALY good Stuff. Awesome people, Awesome Bow Builds Contant any ways. Thanks for being so kind to us an our community ! Stay Strong be yourself do cool Stuff. Greatings out of Germany Sachsen :)
Dude you really should check out Sid’s videos from Border Archery, his HEX and CV limbs shoot incredibly and have that let off feel, I have a couple of pairs of HEX limbs and I can’t get over how good they feel, super fast too!!
I don’t think thats necessarily true on bow stacking and gaining weight at the end of the draw. The weight gain from stacking doesn’t give proportional increase in performance.
Let’s say you gain 5lbs per inch from stacking. You will probably only gain 2 to 3 lbs of performance. The stacking also behaves like the back wall of a compound some what preventing you from over drawing in the first place.
@malcolmjohnson5941 not really preventing overdraw. But 2 to 3 inches at plus 10 pounds will add speed. Not as much as say a smooth draw to the same weight, but it the stack weight is typically easier to draw as you are a better power band to pull it. See it alot training guys for heavy bow. We used to recommended AF fiberglass bows becuase they were cheap, but to much weight came from stacking, so when you moved to a better draw curve bow they ended up having to drop 10 to 15# and retrain back up to weight. After that we just recommend decent draw curve bows.
@@malcolmjohnson5941actually if you go from 2# per inch to 5# per inch your not stacking and that will be real ppwer. Stacking is when you get a rapided scalingbof weight per inch. So you go something like 2#>5#>9# which instead of a smooth 6# increase youvget a sharp 16# increase.
My brother we think is hard to see on bow with a Rebels Forest moon of Endor helmet camo spray paint job over a royal blue spray paint enamel that the enamel is impossible to remove showing in one spot we got a hair of color a gray marbling is an old Ben Person 62 inch model of all fiberglass recurve bow that is like a compound in that the string until at about 25% of full draw is very hard to pull back then lets off to normal until at 80--90% of draw where the bow is. I used the bow for my purposes but needs an over 26 inch draw to work right. the 45--55 pound bow, is weather dependent on poundage with bow mainly being around 45--50 pounds depending on draw. I say Ben Person because very few brands made an all fiberglass recurve bow in this length or high of poundage combo and the grip/rest is classic Ben Person all fiberglass that few other brands had unless made for them by Ben Person with only old pre 1960's Shakespear bows having this striping/marbling in the original dye color added to the manufacture process rather than a paint like 90% of the rest of these all fiberglass bows made before the 1980's. The bow is rather smooth for the poundage the bow can be around 50--55 pounds.
No compounds out of wood. A “war bow” for the people - when the ammo is gone. 65 - 100 or + pounds. You can put together the materials /kits I will buy.
When the ammo is gone? Just 5.56mm...there are billions of rounds in existence for the civilian market--for stockpiles, globally, hundreds of billions. But yeah, worry about "when the ammo is gone" 😂
@ Not particularly worried. The dead have no need of their ammo. But, you are aware that DHS, and others put in large ammunition orders just a few years ago? (BILLIONS) Before COV I think. It was for “training”, but these orders were for all hollow points. Wtf? Anyway, a greater utility exist for a bow I think than is commonly considered. First of all, it would be totally unexpected. Imagine if 1000 archers loosed into a tyrants rally? Or, 10 companies of 1000? Did you see “The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare”? Based on a true story, and, I never realized it till then that certain British troops were issued Longbows. 🤯🥷 🏹
Works exactly like any other recurve. Nothing special and is not letting off at all. The recurves themselves shorten the effective length of the limb initially providing early weight then the bow becomes effectively longer later in the draw which creates a reduction in weight per inch compared to initial draw period. The reason your testing showed 3.75" in the last inch is because you have a long draw and it's well into the stack point for most bows. Essentially clickbait and mis information...
It doesn't shoot like a compound! Clickbate! Your graph proves it. I am a traditional archery hobbiest, a few years ago I shot my son's compound. I was shocked! The accuracy and the speed was mindblowing. I love traditional archery, I love that I can split a log and from that get a decent performing bow with some careful carving and sanding. Composite bows allow for higher limb speed if designed carefully to keep limb weight down while keeping draw weight up. You didn't design anything revolutionary. You may very well build a good shooting bow. I think that your bows look pretty ordinary. (Not necessarily a bad thing) As long as they shoot well. I found the false statement off putting. You seem like a good guy, I have watched your progression, which has been impressive. I do hope your bow performs as well as a 30 # compound. How does it's arrow velocity compare to a good compound of equal draw weight? I wonder. Keep building.
There are some misleading qualities about your draw force curve. The draw force of a compound is much more like a plateau than a peak, this indicates more energy is stored in the bow and is demonstrated by compounds having greater arrow speeds pound for pound. Additionally, i have some CACs by backwoods composite and a covert hunter with hex 8s. The hex 8s actually have letoff, draw at full (29 for me), is less than the draw before it, it was very weird to get used to at first. A lot of archers chase speed without consideration to anything. The border is actually not enjoyable to shoot for me. Its loud, vibrates a lot, and very unforgiving to shoot, and i have spent a lot of time trying to get it quiet, heavy arrows, limbsavers, tuning, a mountain muffler string. More drastic recurve is going to give you more energy though (because deformation is energy), which will manifest itself as a draw force curve that is more plateu-like and have less poundage per inch at the end of the draw. Thats what super recurves have that large hook even while strung.
![WITH PROBLEMS...but... Great For Some [Bear Magnum]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VGk0iR33pvk/mqdefault.jpg)
I would NEVER fast forward over the build..
It's fascinating and beautiful. Your Craftsmanship is beyond words.
Interesting. That limb design and pad angle look very close to a Palmer, and Palmer recurves are well known for having an incredible balance of speed and smoothness.
Thanks for the info.
Awesome video Kramer! At 8:00 You can see how long the string stays in contact with the recurve limb almost halfway thru the draw, you've effectively made this a short bow that then transitions into a longbow once the string lifts off the recurved limb and the non-bending tip levers start doing work. That thing looks like it would store a ton of energy, I bet if you shot a 12 GPP arrow with this bow and a 12 GPP arrow with a reflex deflex or generic longbow it would noticeably outperform it. That being said, there will be more hand shock unless you use a heavier arrow.
70% efficiency with a bow that stores 50 ft/lbs of energy means up to 15 ft/lbs aren't transferred to the arrow and need to be absorbed by the bow. 70% with a 65 ft/lbs bow leaves 19.5 ft/lbs . In order for hand shock to be the same (15 ft/lbs of remaining energy) the bow with 65 ft/lbs of stored energy will need to have an efficiency of 77% or more, which necessitates a heavier arrow. But that heavier arrow should have a similar FPS to, say, a 10 GPP out of a reflex deflex bow but with noticeably more kinetic energy and even more momentum by comparison.
Been watching your videos for several years. I am very impressed with your work and how far you've come.
Great music on the build video too.
This is why I like string-bridges on selfbow recurves.
You mean like an asian/horse bow, yes?
Wonderful! I always love your bow building vids! I’d love to see you try your hand at building a tartar style horse bow.
This bow shoots exactly like a recurve.
Of course it does. The more you recurve the better stack will be. This isn’t remotely ‘compound like’ behavior. It’s conpletely typical when recurving or even just reflexing the tips
Hey bro, im subscribed to you 😊
My favorite one... "Today." Perfect ending! As someone who likes to own 1 or 2 of everything, rather than a single trophy winning bow, that has a lot of meaning.
Research static limb recurves...overall the best for speed and quietness. And well proven.
I want one of those bows
Damn you are a genius and a craftsman where you get that motivation
great video ! id love to see one that deep dives into form making
i think the graph is inverted
Just wrong labels 😅
I’ve wondered this as well about consistency at final inch of draw, and wonder if the temptation to underdraw too far is a bad thing. I struggle with how far I should be drawing. Would love to hear your take on this!
Do you think you could build a simpler, wooden version of an oneida lever bow? That would be something. Im sure you could find cams for cheap online.
That bow wood be a lighter bow and probably easier to use, being wood for the main body and the stiff limbs of G10 or the new product of same design. My thought is finding cams of the right design made outside of Onida company would be the challenge.
My thought would be improving the design of the cam-less model lever bow that Muzzy has made for the company in China where you can find the aftermarket model, making to improve the old design if major work needs to be done or fixing the old model showing the steps needed.
@caseysmith544 I'm thinking about just doing this myself. It's a very interesting concept, one made out of wood. I love the idea, though, for limbs made out of g10, that genius.
Would love to know what weight of fiberglass he used and the number of layers. Super cool stuff!
I would love to see you explore the effect of asymmetrical bow lims on speed and draw weight/curve
i knew this time was going to me, i've been looking for it so long
How does this compare to your "Bones" model performance at equal draw weight?
Kramer build a few primtive bows with various species of wood.
so... you've discovered how to match the draw weight curve of various historical bow designs
The last inch of draw gains less poundage, but you would need a draw length specific limb to get that advantage for different people. My draw is 26" so how would you get that to work for someone like me? The static recurve with the built in wedge of stiff but light material and deflexed limb pad works good, similar to an Asiatic design. I have found that bow length is critical to draw length when trying to find that sweet spot.
At this point, you need to make a wooden Oneida and I am 1000% here for it
I can imagine how God makes us through tweaking each of our own traits like how you tweak the cores, risers, limbs and combining it all sorts of ways.... Then saying how perfect we are and then making another person anyway because it's just fun...
Have you even been to Long Beach Washington? The reason I ask is I remember meeting this guy looks just like you that built bows? He showed me how to build a bow. I have fell I love with it ever since then. Either way I would love to build a bow with you one day please.
Can you make faster limbs for the Samik sage risers?
Why not just buy an inexpensive ilf riser and use whatever carbon ilf limbs you want?
Can i ask kramer, and there is a reason I ask u seem every similar to how my mind works, do you have adhd or something else? This is not meant at all mean or horribly but you remind me of me, and I'm currently getting diagnosed slowly in uk at age 34. I'm so sorry if this irrelevant but u remind me of myself so much i had to ask. I'm so apologetic of it is inappropriate. I love your channel too watch it from uk all the time buddy and we can't even bow hunt here. The skill of making bows out of wood and reading the wood is amazing to me. Best wishes for everything too, if this was inappropriate I am forever sorry too. Keep doing what you do man it's awesome 👌 p.s there is a thousand reasons I asked because u do everything I would do, and its not helped my life, I have the most hats off to you forever for creating a channel too man that's scared me forever lol 😅 please don't hate me for asking just I don't often ever see someone that acts like myself I live in a rural area and see little people. A lot of reasons I asked please forgive me if I'm totally wrong. Much love from uk buddy ❤️ what a channel
Have you ever heard of Border Scottland? 😅
😂😂😂Nie exploding limbs from there
@ullikuschal8000 I tried to build a supercurve once. It "exploded" in my hands 😅. (Ohne recurve twisted)
@@ullikuschal8000their record has been far far better in recent times with their CV9/5/2 range.
Cool stuff man thanks 😎👍💯🔥🇺🇲🏹
I you ever shot a manchu bow, its the closest thing u can get to a let off, recurves a barely there
Do you think you could build a compoundbow out of wood?
oh damn.... i like it. Get on that Kramer!
I doubt it could be done with 100% wood. The cams would have to be metal.
Original compounds were made from wood. Used a single plywood cam on the bottom limb.
Should look up Browning biws and Drake. He made dizens of wood compounds during his time at browning. Most did not make production
Not really. That's almost like asking if you can make a composite bow out of just wood. While, technically, a compound bow is just a bow that uses sometimes adjustable cams and, basically a block and tackle, for mechanical advantage, it also combines the use of different materials with that mechanical advantage to provide an easier draw with maximum power on the release.
I suppose a wood-only compound bow might be possible, but modern compound bows are designed to go past the limits of what wood is capable of providing but still being possible for the average human being to be able to use. Wood would either be too soft to provide the power or so hard that it would shatter under the shock when the string is released, much like a normal bow when you dry-fire it.
The link doesn’t work for the model?
I do believe the labeling of your chart around 7:30 should be flipped. Anyways, great video 👍🏻
Hey @Kramer Ammons i am Hendrik from Germany i got a question about Shatterproof Archery. Did your Brother plan to build new The BONES - Reflex Deflex Longbow next Season 2025 ? I plan to buy one next Spring. Im a LH Sportsman an it is sometimes very difficult for me to get some REALY good Stuff. Awesome people, Awesome Bow Builds Contant any ways. Thanks for being so kind to us an our community ! Stay Strong be yourself do cool Stuff. Greatings out of Germany Sachsen :)
Dude you really should check out Sid’s videos from Border Archery, his HEX and CV limbs shoot incredibly and have that let off feel, I have a couple of pairs of HEX limbs and I can’t get over how good they feel, super fast too!!
Curious about arrow speed test on this vrs non modified, assuming equal draw
Between d97 b55 and fast flight. What's the best combo and string count for a faster string then straight d97 string
You put DL and BW on the wrong axis, but I get what you were saying.
Thanks, you beat me to that comment!
How can I order one of these from you?
So is this the official mountain bow ?
Make wooden lever bow next!
Cam timing is off,please adjust
What's the price point on that bad boy
I don’t think thats necessarily true on bow stacking and gaining weight at the end of the draw. The weight gain from stacking doesn’t give proportional increase in performance.
Depennds on how long the stack is. You get 2 or 3 inches of stack you can see an increase in performance but it is a rough shoot
Let’s say you gain 5lbs per inch from stacking. You will probably only gain 2 to 3 lbs of performance. The stacking also behaves like the back wall of a compound some what preventing you from over drawing in the first place.
@malcolmjohnson5941 not really preventing overdraw. But 2 to 3 inches at plus 10 pounds will add speed. Not as much as say a smooth draw to the same weight, but it the stack weight is typically easier to draw as you are a better power band to pull it. See it alot training guys for heavy bow. We used to recommended AF fiberglass bows becuase they were cheap, but to much weight came from stacking, so when you moved to a better draw curve bow they ended up having to drop 10 to 15# and retrain back up to weight. After that we just recommend decent draw curve bows.
@@malcolmjohnson5941actually if you go from 2# per inch to 5# per inch your not stacking and that will be real ppwer. Stacking is when you get a rapided scalingbof weight per inch. So you go something like 2#>5#>9# which instead of a smooth 6# increase youvget a sharp 16# increase.
My brother we think is hard to see on bow with a Rebels Forest moon of Endor helmet camo spray paint job over a royal blue spray paint enamel that the enamel is impossible to remove showing in one spot we got a hair of color a gray marbling is an old Ben Person 62 inch model of all fiberglass recurve bow that is like a compound in that the string until at about 25% of full draw is very hard to pull back then lets off to normal until at 80--90% of draw where the bow is. I used the bow for my purposes but needs an over 26 inch draw to work right. the 45--55 pound bow, is weather dependent on poundage with bow mainly being around 45--50 pounds depending on draw. I say Ben Person because very few brands made an all fiberglass recurve bow in this length or high of poundage combo and the grip/rest is classic Ben Person all fiberglass that few other brands had unless made for them by Ben Person with only old pre 1960's Shakespear bows having this striping/marbling in the original dye color added to the manufacture process rather than a paint like 90% of the rest of these all fiberglass bows made before the 1980's. The bow is rather smooth for the poundage the bow can be around 50--55 pounds.
Hi, who is the singer starting at the 2:50 mark?
Velvet moon - queen of hearts
@@Huntssmann thank you, sir! With that info I found it on Spotify and saved it to favorites. Much appreciated.
Awesome
Bows aside, you've come a long way from that annoying music in your first videos to this. Very nice 😁
No compounds out of wood.
A “war bow” for the people - when the ammo is gone.
65 - 100 or + pounds. You can put together the materials /kits I will buy.
When the ammo is gone? Just 5.56mm...there are billions of rounds in existence for the civilian market--for stockpiles, globally, hundreds of billions.
But yeah, worry about "when the ammo is gone" 😂
@
Not particularly worried. The dead have no need of their ammo. But, you are aware that DHS, and others put in large ammunition orders just a few years ago? (BILLIONS) Before COV I think.
It was for “training”, but these orders were for all hollow points. Wtf?
Anyway, a greater utility exist for a bow I think than is commonly considered. First of all, it would be totally unexpected. Imagine if 1000 archers loosed into a tyrants rally?
Or, 10 companies of 1000?
Did you see “The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare”?
Based on a true story, and, I never realized it till then that certain British troops were issued Longbows.
🤯🥷 🏹
@
Besides, it’s the components that will dry up…primers, powder etc
Kramer, waiting on a true Penobscot build of your own style, let's see it bro.
Nooooo....
Wait..
What was the specs of them?
Leaving us hanging like that?😮
You're killing me
Guess I'll just have to wait like everyone else 😢😊
Works exactly like any other recurve. Nothing special and is not letting off at all.
The recurves themselves shorten the effective length of the limb initially providing early weight then the bow becomes effectively longer later in the draw which creates a reduction in weight per inch compared to initial draw period.
The reason your testing showed 3.75" in the last inch is because you have a long draw and it's well into the stack point for most bows.
Essentially clickbait and mis information...
I was shot with an arrow within the first 4 seconds. Crazy
Wow schone Bögen. Was kostet sowas?
It doesn't shoot like a compound! Clickbate!
Your graph proves it.
I am a traditional archery hobbiest, a few years ago I shot my son's compound. I was shocked! The accuracy and the speed was mindblowing.
I love traditional archery, I love that I can split a log and from that get a decent performing bow with some careful carving and sanding.
Composite bows allow for higher limb speed if designed carefully to keep limb weight down while keeping draw weight up.
You didn't design anything revolutionary.
You may very well build a good shooting bow.
I think that your bows look pretty ordinary. (Not necessarily a bad thing) As long as they shoot well.
I found the false statement off putting. You seem like a good guy, I have watched your progression, which has been impressive.
I do hope your bow performs as well as a 30 # compound. How does it's arrow velocity compare to a good compound of equal draw weight? I wonder.
Keep building.
Could you send me one of those please I’m 13 and trying to get into bowing
Super recurve has let off. Pound goes down
Please credit the music too 😅
Mad Scientist
There are some misleading qualities about your draw force curve. The draw force of a compound is much more like a plateau than a peak, this indicates more energy is stored in the bow and is demonstrated by compounds having greater arrow speeds pound for pound.
Additionally, i have some CACs by backwoods composite and a covert hunter with hex 8s. The hex 8s actually have letoff, draw at full (29 for me), is less than the draw before it, it was very weird to get used to at first. A lot of archers chase speed without consideration to anything. The border is actually not enjoyable to shoot for me. Its loud, vibrates a lot, and very unforgiving to shoot, and i have spent a lot of time trying to get it quiet, heavy arrows, limbsavers, tuning, a mountain muffler string.
More drastic recurve is going to give you more energy though (because deformation is energy), which will manifest itself as a draw force curve that is more plateu-like and have less poundage per inch at the end of the draw. Thats what super recurves have that large hook even while strung.
Your limb bold Insert is Not even close to flush with the surface of the limp Pat..
Great video. Your plot axes are reversed.
Messaged you on fb messenger.
I had respect for you until I saw the metabo saw, we can't be friends.
👎 That's for the CLICK BAIT
What do you think of the superhooks (Hex9) from Border Archery? They have achieved what you are angling at in this video. Good stuff!!
Nope
@ullikuschal8000 - Why?
make a super recurve bow
I don't see $1000 worth of bow o.0