really is fascinating. so much possibility exists when you implement even a few rough systems. people can sit playing and experimenting with it for years. the gameplay for these games couldve been making itself effortlessly for decades, and instead, they choose to tediously hand-craft and spoon-feed it like pablum for RTS babies.
the beauty of Total war, you'll never know how something works, or not! Matchlocks and Ashigaru were supposed to be the back bone of warfare in Sengokujidai, But in this game, you end up finishing the game barely recruiting any, when you did you could barely get them to fire a single shot.
@@theamorphousflatsch2699 he has a really good point though even if it’s negative it’s the truth total war games nowadays just suck they ain’t like the original classic oldies that was REAL TOTAL WAR
@@The_Dodge_Meister i think it’s more the overall Attitude he carries with his comments and videos. Technically correct, but the pedantic, uptight and pretentious attitude tends to get quite irritating to the point people won’t want to listen.
They'll see them and think "wow" but when they realize they might be getting scammed with WH, they'll backtrack and say something along the like of "my flying units" or "muh diversity"
There are guns unit in total war warhammer series? There's a varieties of them. Yes we use them a lot as they are very important support units to massacre the enemies haha. You should check out Skaven ratling gun units and you'll see what a real massacre looks like.
If I was playing against the stacked gun units at the start of the video, 1 unit in front of the other, I would have charged right in. I would have gotten rocked for that. I so love gun units in old TW games. Even in o.g. Shogun Total War.
Wow , I loved the third set up, I never thought about this possibility. The first two unfortunatelly we can see some shots in the back, very annoying and dumb for a foot soldier to do that in real life...
@@dishonorable_daimyo1498 Sure , but in the second set up , although I saw only 2 or 3 shots in the back, the moral penalty for that situation almost routed the entire unit while retreating for new positioning.
@@carlosalbertolagepena6090 they started wavering only after being struck in the rear; Stand & Fight and XP would negate this in realistic scenarios, and in MP you'll be using Matchlock Samurai anyway.
I should mention of course (and you probably already know) that these set-ups are for scenarios where you want to concentrate fire but don't have access to a hill. That out of the way, yes it appears the best thing is to have the unit in front do an attacking ranked fire, while the second uses free fire. With proper timing you could have both units in ranked fire, but realistically you won't have the time for such a level of micro in the middle of battle, since you need to give the attack order or they'll take much longer to fire, and in some of my testing the 2nd unit in ranked fire bugged out and didn't get any shots off because their line of sight was partially obstructed.
Wow. I had no idea about that! Who would have thought that you can accualy use fire by rank evetiveley in this game! Now I just need to start an Otomo campain hah
The morale loss in the second test of the friendly matchlock due to losing just 2 men to friendly fire matchlocks from the rear was insane. Also does third one work with normal yari ashigaru?
If all you do is single player (Like me) simply modding them to have Kneel Fire (Which requires some modding of the tech tree for campaign) and ticking the "All Ranks Fire" option that only dismounted gun units don't have (Which is why even when dismounted the Mounted Gunners and Donderbus Cav can still all fire) eliminates the need for the very fussy Fire by Rank that I couldn't fix no matter what I tried. The problem with FbR is the same one that often results in the "Tosa Shuffle" in FOTS multiplayer (Your lads just reform rather than return fire), that the animation cycles can be very picky on where you lads are and what they are doing before it starts. This core engine quirk is why in FbR the lads often just don't fire at all as the enemy walks up to them. I've done a lot within the S2 engine in terms of modding, but I don't think it is possible at all to fix FbR without overhauling the engine itself (I did find a FOTS mod that reimplemented Platoon Fire for skirmishers though).
For better or worse I don't dabble in mods besides cosmetic ones, my whole thing is working within the constraints of the vanilla game that most people would be playing. For all its flaws it is the definitive version of the game.
How did your second line of free firing matchlocks have LoS to fire? looks like youre on flat ground and no visible gabs in the front line for them to fire through...? I've played this game a lot but I realise Ive missed so much, I've just never bothered with gun infantry until i saw your videos.
Ahh, I shoulv'e watched the whole video before commenting. You explain it's because the front unit is in loose formation so some men in the rear can get LoS. Hmm, nice...I always just used loose formation when dealing with enemy archers, seems like there's another use for it now! Damn, every day i learn something new.
Two guys getting shot doesn't really count as "a lot." Friendly fire will always be present to some degree, but that is easily countered by wisely placing XP on units so their morale holds. The units here had no XP which is an unrealistic scenario, especially in campaign where guns come in quite late.
still i feel matchlocks are worse than bows in field batles, but in siege batles if you are the defender they will obliterate any unit they encounter, i didnt know about these, it sure makes them more useful,l still i think bows are quite better and easier to use, i like matchlocks and i try to find ways to use them, but, a hill seems like really the only good and easy way to use them, but i would like you to prove me wrong for i would love to use them effectively, maybe i just didnt learn how to make them usefull, still you found a fascinating way in wich they work congrats :)
You can hop onto discord where this is discussed rather frequently. In short you need to understand the AI's targeting logic for ranged units: they will prioritize your highest quality unit, eg. Samurai instead of Ashigaru. I have noticed the AI seems to consider Bow Samurai a more dangerous unit than guns, allowing you to field one or two Bow Samurai to draw fire away from your guns.
really is fascinating. so much possibility exists when you implement even a few rough systems. people can sit playing and experimenting with it for years. the gameplay for these games couldve been making itself effortlessly for decades, and instead, they choose to tediously hand-craft and spoon-feed it like pablum for RTS babies.
leave it to volound to put something negative under a neutral video
the beauty of Total war, you'll never know how something works, or not! Matchlocks and Ashigaru were supposed to be the back bone of warfare in Sengokujidai, But in this game, you end up finishing the game barely recruiting any, when you did you could barely get them to fire a single shot.
@@theamorphousflatsch2699 he has a really good point though even if it’s negative it’s the truth total war games nowadays just suck they ain’t like the original classic oldies that was REAL TOTAL WAR
Based
@@The_Dodge_Meister i think it’s more the overall Attitude he carries with his comments and videos. Technically correct, but the pedantic, uptight and pretentious attitude tends to get quite irritating to the point people won’t want to listen.
I want Warhammer players to at least get Guns like this, just feel the power of a mass salvo of death, breaking through the enemies soul.
They'll see them and think "wow" but when they realize they might be getting scammed with WH, they'll backtrack and say something along the like of "my flying units" or "muh diversity"
@@dishonorable_daimyo1498 sad but true
Chaos dwarfs have released and kind of addressed this - try their blunderbuss they’re so much fun
There are guns unit in total war warhammer series? There's a varieties of them. Yes we use them a lot as they are very important support units to massacre the enemies haha.
You should check out Skaven ratling gun units and you'll see what a real massacre looks like.
ahhh pike and shot my fav combo playing as descendants of Great Sigmar
If I was playing against the stacked gun units at the start of the video, 1 unit in front of the other, I would have charged right in. I would have gotten rocked for that.
I so love gun units in old TW games. Even in o.g. Shogun Total War.
Wow , I loved the third set up, I never thought about this possibility.
The first two unfortunatelly we can see some shots in the back, very annoying and dumb for a foot soldier to do that in real life...
Bah, I'll take 1 or 2 men dying to getting an extra volley lol
@@dishonorable_daimyo1498 Sure , but in the second set up , although I saw only 2 or 3 shots in the back, the moral penalty for that situation almost routed the entire unit while retreating for new positioning.
@@carlosalbertolagepena6090 they started wavering only after being struck in the rear; Stand & Fight and XP would negate this in realistic scenarios, and in MP you'll be using Matchlock Samurai anyway.
@@dishonorable_daimyo1498 also having a proper general in the army
it happend in Rl tho- battle isnt standing on a shooting range, and standing this deep shit happens ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You can also try stacking 3 matchlock units together, it's good but not too effective against missiles or artillery
Hm, i didn't knew that matchlock can fire over kneeling units. That's cool
So the best way is for the front guns to be in ranked fire, while guns in the back is free fire?
I should mention of course (and you probably already know) that these set-ups are for scenarios where you want to concentrate fire but don't have access to a hill. That out of the way, yes it appears the best thing is to have the unit in front do an attacking ranked fire, while the second uses free fire. With proper timing you could have both units in ranked fire, but realistically you won't have the time for such a level of micro in the middle of battle, since you need to give the attack order or they'll take much longer to fire, and in some of my testing the 2nd unit in ranked fire bugged out and didn't get any shots off because their line of sight was partially obstructed.
@@dishonorable_daimyo1498 I see, thanks!
Oh actual pike and shoot might still be possible then!
Wow. I had no idea about that! Who would have thought that you can accualy use fire by rank evetiveley in this game!
Now I just need to start an Otomo campain hah
The morale loss in the second test of the friendly matchlock due to losing just 2 men to friendly fire matchlocks from the rear was insane.
Also does third one work with normal yari ashigaru?
That, combined with taking a charge in the face I think
Also getting charged in the rear.
@@HungTran-gz5em It was already red before being charged.
If all you do is single player (Like me) simply modding them to have Kneel Fire (Which requires some modding of the tech tree for campaign) and ticking the "All Ranks Fire" option that only dismounted gun units don't have (Which is why even when dismounted the Mounted Gunners and Donderbus Cav can still all fire) eliminates the need for the very fussy Fire by Rank that I couldn't fix no matter what I tried. The problem with FbR is the same one that often results in the "Tosa Shuffle" in FOTS multiplayer (Your lads just reform rather than return fire), that the animation cycles can be very picky on where you lads are and what they are doing before it starts. This core engine quirk is why in FbR the lads often just don't fire at all as the enemy walks up to them. I've done a lot within the S2 engine in terms of modding, but I don't think it is possible at all to fix FbR without overhauling the engine itself (I did find a FOTS mod that reimplemented Platoon Fire for skirmishers though).
For better or worse I don't dabble in mods besides cosmetic ones, my whole thing is working within the constraints of the vanilla game that most people would be playing. For all its flaws it is the definitive version of the game.
I love how the best way to fix gunpowder is to just do what Warhammer did and toss out fire by rank altogether.
@@kubaGR8Warhammer got rid of guns entirely, their "guns" are just puffy auto-recharging magic sticks.
damn that actually works? I gotta try this when i can play shogun 2 again
i am sorry but my portugese tercos didnt need any of these shenanigans...
(except yari wall stack and loose formation againts yumi's tho)
How did your second line of free firing matchlocks have LoS to fire? looks like youre on flat ground and no visible gabs in the front line for them to fire through...? I've played this game a lot but I realise Ive missed so much, I've just never bothered with gun infantry until i saw your videos.
Ahh, I shoulv'e watched the whole video before commenting. You explain it's because the front unit is in loose formation so some men in the rear can get LoS. Hmm, nice...I always just used loose formation when dealing with enemy archers, seems like there's another use for it now! Damn, every day i learn something new.
whell I see lot's of friendly fire here
Two guys getting shot doesn't really count as "a lot." Friendly fire will always be present to some degree, but that is easily countered by wisely placing XP on units so their morale holds. The units here had no XP which is an unrealistic scenario, especially in campaign where guns come in quite late.
still i feel matchlocks are worse than bows in field batles, but in siege batles if you are the defender they will obliterate any unit they encounter, i didnt know about these, it sure makes them more useful,l still i think bows are quite better and easier to use, i like matchlocks and i try to find ways to use them, but, a hill seems like really the only good and easy way to use them, but i would like you to prove me wrong for i would love to use them effectively, maybe i just didnt learn how to make them usefull, still you found a fascinating way in wich they work congrats :)
You can hop onto discord where this is discussed rather frequently. In short you need to understand the AI's targeting logic for ranged units: they will prioritize your highest quality unit, eg. Samurai instead of Ashigaru. I have noticed the AI seems to consider Bow Samurai a more dangerous unit than guns, allowing you to field one or two Bow Samurai to draw fire away from your guns.
So play as ottomo and only make Portuguese tercos put one in front with fire by rank and the behind on free fire