Also as said, people really just overestimate Iroh a bit. I mean I get it, he’s no doubt a powerful warrior and truly accomplished, but people often believe he can just no dif his brother as if it were fact. Not even just taking into account of Iroh stating himself feeling inferior to him, but even when you look at the Sozin’s comet finale, he literally was never shown to fight anyone, and instead just fired a charged blast that wasn’t even nearly as powerful to Ozai’s blast. People can just be too in over their heads when it comes to character biases.
It is stated that he trained under the Original Masters. The dragons also are sentient beings deliberately training humans. In every case when he chose to fight, he went from "buffoon" to "dragon of the West" stat. In-setting, it is shown that true mastery of Fire isn't just the "top trumps power level", but discipline and control. That's how Aang as a novice defeated Zhao, Zuko defeated Azula, and Iroh dominated Zhao. Azula and Ozai both are described and shown to be very powerful out of their anger. So, if you used Ozai or Azula like Jack Horner uses the Phoenix in "The Last Wish", they would indeed be incredibly powerful (and Jack Horner using Ozai as a flame thrower is an image hard to get rid of). One of the main themes of AtlA, however, shows that raw talent isn't sufficient for mastery (Aang/Katara waterbending, Zuko/Azula firebending,...). To "over-rate" someone is to give him bigger power than what's shown. It isn't possible to "over-rate" Iroh because he's not "rated" in the first place, but a "sleeping giant" who can best everything the writers want him to overcome. In-Setting, there isn't a single fight he doesn't win the moment he choses to commit. (Azula, Zhao, and the whole prison later.) From those hints shown when he choses to fight, up to what is shown in-setting about his training (eg that he trained with the "Original Masters"), it is realistic that he could best Ozai. Look at the prison at the time of the eclipse, when Fire Benders canonically are weakened; and he did damage to the (fire-proofed) building, so you cannot put that to "the guards were on their eclipse when he did that". And to be frank, this works incredibly well. Iroh evades fights because of his well-established philosophy, so there is no reason to "rate" him and not give him a "soft rating". Ozai, Zhao or Azula fail when they just aren't powerful enough; Iroh doesn't win because he choses not to fight, which means he can credibly "Zhao" any opponent if he choses to take them on.
It's so many high and top tier benders everyone truly has rivals and there isn't the one strongest bender or one bender who can beat any and everyone. Well besides Yakone and Amon these 2 are op.
When it comes to Aang's avatar state, I've realized that a lot of fans overate and hype it up without acknowledging the necessary context behind it. Aang's avatar state is very powerful and there is no denying that but this solely applies to pre-finale Aang. Only pre-finale Aang had an emotionally charged, uncontrolled avatar state. Post finale Aang after mastering the avatar state, we can see he uses it similarly to avatars like Korra, who we've almost only seen using the avatar state with control. This was further proved in the flashback where we saw Aang doing nothing specifically significant when he entered the avatar state, only to get out of Yakone's grip and take his bending. Also the comics can be used as further context. So essentially, what I'm trying to say is that using an uncontrolled avatar state as a feat whilst ignoring the fact that the avatar state became significantly more tame after being mastered can be seen as dishonest or at the very least oblivious. Of course I'm not targeting anyone specifically, just giving my opinion.
My way of seeing the avatar state here can kinda be shown as a swimmer. Well trained avatars are more efficient and splash less than a complete beginner. Aang looks like hes doing a lot, because hes splashing a lot (not a perfect analogy, but its meant to convey the idea that Korra is more in control and thus her bending looks less crazy than aangs)
not really tho the as is just as powerful its just used differently cratering an entire city is more impressive than ay singluar feat he did agaist ozai or what he did to old iron an uncontrolled AS is no stronger than his normal one logically that makes 0 sense
I thought the point of learning from the dragons and the sun warriors was primarily to show Zuko another source for his fire, which he had lost access to. The movements in the dance also added to his technique. So I thought he always utilized what he learned there.
But that's the point of the whole setting. It has been established long ago (Battle with Zhao, accidentally burning Katara, injuring Toph,......) that the sun warriors/dragons style isn't just "another method", but the correct method while the anger-fueled "dark side of the force"-approach of the Fire Nation is toxic and destructive. In the two instances when Iroh goes full "Dragon of the West" on-screen, it also has been established that this source is much more powerful than the Fire Nation style. Regardless of how powerful a character is shown to be, it's established that it's always necessary to do some concentration and martial arts gymnastics before fire bending. Azula takes this to perfection when she declares a technique failed because a strand of her hair was out of place. Then, Iroh jokingly asks if he ever told why he was called "the Dragon of the West", blows on his tea - and then executes a quite powerful sustained fire bending manoeuvre. That's how the "hint at, don't show"-approach to Iroh's power rating works.
Zhao is in no way "fodder". Aang only wins because he doesn't try to win through brute force, but by using Zhao's power against him. Iroh wins easily against Zhao albeit this isn't his main focus, but to get the Moon Spirit back. Very deliberately, the writers went to great lengths to AVOID "rating" Iroh in the first place. The "rating" of Iroh is perfectly summed up in the Stan Lee quote at the beginning: Iroh can do whatever the writers want/need him to do at that moment, and without going against what was established for him earlier. Even before learning the "Dancing Dragon" technique, Zuko can use Iroh's lightning-deflection technique he just learned to hold his ground against Ozai - while Iroh goes off-screen through the prison like a wrecking ball. There is absolutely no reason to doubt that in a direct confrontation, Iroh wouldn't be able to win against Ozai - his reason not to fight is that "a Royal defeating another Royal" is well in-line with the Fire Nation system post-Sozin, and wouldn't solve the (systemic) problem. To change that, an outsider - from a group the Fire Nation destroyed 100 years ago, no less - has to take on the "undefeated" Fire Nation and win. Itoh is a "powerful character done right". No viewer would bat an eye if he canonically became the "sun spirit" himself, because his writing is left so open. From all the criticisms, controversies and - most of all - non-troversies about TLoK, I haven't seen yet anyone criticising that Iroh had a "corporeal ascension" into the Spirit World - which, considering the Avatar setting is a Western story written in "Wonton-Fonts", normally would be quite a big thing. That's simply because nobody was given a reason to find such an ascension "over-powered", "over-rated", "out of left field" or anything along those lines. Iroh just is one powerful bender (and I hope I haven't just created the monster of a Rule-34-Iroh-Katara-"ship").
@@enysuntra1347going to the spirit world isn’t a combat feat and doesn’t make him stronger than the other benders. Most of the benders in Tlok are young so why do they want to go to the spirit world when they die. Only Toph. Zuko. Katara are old and they aren’t spiritual benders. Iroh and jeong Jeong are top tier however so is Lin.Ghazan. Combustion man. Ming Hua and everyone in Lotus tier. Feats tell how you do in a fight against your peers and rivals. Everyone in Lotus tier are rivals to Iroh/Jeong Jeong.
Antoine Bandele always seems to follow the Standard Battle Assumptions of the VS Battles Wiki, which are applicable to all VS Battles, unless the OP states otherwise. So in all the VS Series I’ve seen with Antoine, he does these fights morals on, in neutral environments that don’t favour one side or the other, he uses the strongest versions we’ve seen for both characters so they’re at their best (excluding unfair amps or hypothetical adult versions), he lets them have standard gear (so kuvira doesn’t get the colossus mech in a fight with Azula for example), there’s no prep time, there’s an even starting distance between the 2 combatants so that neither has an unfair advantage, etc. The Standard Battle Assumptions are simply the default laws for all VS battles (avatar, Star Wars, marvel, karate kid, etc). The reason why they’re default rules is simply to give a set of guidelines for all vs battles when the OP doesn’t specify any context to the fights. They’re not absolute laws fortunately so tons of people can make VS battles with special rules like the characters are bloodlusted, they’re amped, they fight in a certain environment that favours one character to balance things out, etc, but they have to specify these changes to the battle assumptions to make them applicable.
@@darthvenamis1396 that I never understood. Either keep both in grandmaster tier for their hype, or move both of them down a tier for lack of feats. Iroh doesn’t have many feats, but he certainly has a lot more than Gyatso.
And yes, there are also things about their tier list I don't agree with. For example, I do think Iroh should still be in Lotus Master Tier based on hype. But he should NOT be at the top of that tier due to lack of 1v1 feats.
Kuvira. Unalaq. Ming Hua. Jianzhu are some deadly benders that I love their precise technical style of bending. If I was a bender I’d fight just like Unalaq/Kuvira.
we overrate certain characters due to (in part) our nostalgia for them. so characters we overrate often are toph and iroh. and people occasionally overrate azula. i don't thin we overrate aang's uncontrollable avatar state since the uncontrolled state is the other avatars working together, maybe the best way to put it is its the state most likely to just do large AOE attacks, which to anyone besides another avatar/dark avatar would demolish.
The same order you have is the same order I have. I always have quality of victories as number one. It’s impressive when benders fight other top tier or high tier benders instead of just fodder. Like Katara fighting Azula and Zuko. Or Suyin fighting Kuvira and Pli. Or Tonraq fighting Unalaq.
The way Toph handled herself in battle in the wrestling ring, against the entire Ba Sing Se palace guard and against the Dai Li tell me she’s not overrated at all. Not to mention how she still was able to train Korra and rescue her family in her old age.
Toph is overrated within the FANDOM not necessarily in verse, she is rated quite accurately in the verse but it’s excessive when you see fans claim she is better than Aang or could beat Avatar Kyoshi in a fight etc… especially since she defeated nothing but fodders the entire show
When someone says overated, they dont mean how strong they are, they mean that their perception of how strong a character is, is lower than that of the public perception. Now Toph fanatics would have you believe shes absolute nuts at combat...... But theres me wondering where shes fought a single non canon fodder combatant. Even against Korra, she looked good cause Korra was poisoned, so of course Toph looked impressive.
@@avatarmufasa3628 you just said everything and more… literally there was a viral tweet on Twitter (or X) yesterday about Toph vs Katara vs Azula vs Korra and everyone in the replies saying Korra would lose to Toph easily or Toph would defeat all 3 and it’s like… where did she display any of this prowess on anyone that isn’t fodder?
I think people overrate Azula more than Toph, tbh. Part of that being because she has blue flames, she must somehow be stronger than Ozai in their eyes (and yet the comparison to Iroh never comes up...). But outside of Suki, Zuko, or her introduction, how many of her fights have actually had a decisive finish without someone interfering or running away?
So long as folks aren’t putting Azula > Ozai, I don’t think she’s overrated. If anything, Azula gets properly rated by most (who don’t say silliness like her being better than Ozai).
I could not agree more. Of all the characters I’ve seen across fiction, Azula is the one with the most amount of feats and fights that are either taken out of context or greatly exaggerated by her fans. I can’t think of a single fight she’s been in where it was either a fair victory or wasn’t taken out of context by her fans.
@@AntoineBandeleI disagree. Most of their fights, aang had an environment disadvantage along with another disadvantage. Onashu fight, aang had 0 access to water, he has yet to learn the other 2 elements, and he focused on saving bumi while Azula was 100% focused on aang. Despite this, the fight ended in bumi separating the 2 after the fight escalated into a chase. Second fight in that town, again, no water for aang, he had yet to learn the other 2 elements, and he was weakened and exhausted by sleep deprivation (something Azula herself acknowledged). Aang lost the fight, but he still did very well despite the environment and exhaustion disadvantages. Third fight at the wall, aang only had enough water for a tiny whip, so he only had access to earth and air (and he had massively underdeveloped earth at the time). And still, aang one by ragdolling her with that final air blast. Fourth fight in the catacombs, aang finally had access to a proper water source (though he still has yet to learn firebending). The fight was even but neither of them truly defeated each other as aang was ready to fight Zuko and Azula until the dai li showed up, which forced him to enter the avatar state (and then Azula fans are like “sHe KiLlEd AaNg In ThE AvAtAr StAtE”, even though it was a cheap shot with lightning on an aang who wasn’t paying attention to her at all. EoS aang would’ve just redirected that lightning). Fifth fight isn’t even a fight. It’s just Azula running away from toph, aang and sokka while dodging their attacks (with minor assistance from the dai li agents). Incredible speed, agility and tactics, don’t get me wrong, but it’s hilarious how every Azula fan says she “Held her own against aang, toph and sokka without bending” when she didn’t hold her own in a fight, rather evaded them in a chase
@@darthvenamis1396 You seem to be under the impression that if aangs full bending needs arent catered for then hes at some disadvantage to Azula. And in all of these environments Aang had a wide open space, and plenty of capacity to use his airbending to the fullest. Its honestly quite rare to get every element fully optimised, and so when considering Aang vs Azula, perhaps dont try to go for as much as possible, be realistic. In all the fights Aang engaged with Azula, he didnt really get much on her at all. You mentioned the catacombs fight, you say they fight evenly, but only Azula gets a good hit in. knocking Aang back and hurting him. I dont need to rely on the lightning strike for azula (its merely a sneak attack afterall), its just clear she got more hits in and thus performed better than Aang did. "And still, aang one by ragdolling her with that final air blast." Except he didnt. During the drill, Azula again gets lots of hits in and is ready to fight even at the end, but is alas too far away to continue. The only way Aang "wins" the fight is because his mission was completed, not because he successfully defeated azula Even if Aang had other motives in his fights against azula, the point stands that he was never on top of her in any of the engagements. But the reverse isnt true.
Very well crafted video, people do overestimate Toph quite a bit, largely just due to bias. She really is mostly shown to body earthbenders, and despite being amazing, could still lose to someone like King Bumi, and is just isn’t as effective especially against master air, water or fire benders due to her condition, and just can’t sense those elements properly.
Toph has blocked attacks from waterbenders and firebenders numerous times. It’s the airbenders who she seems to struggle against the most, but waterbenders and firebenders are fine.
Thanks. And yeah, it only seems her greatest weakness is against airbenders. And maybe firebenders like Azula or Ozai with their fire-jets. But whenever she had her little spats with Katara, she was able to keep pace and even win once in a comic.
@@kyleskendle6452 she blocked katara’s waves in the comics, so I don’t know what you’re talking about. In the comics, she blocks katara’s wave, tunnels behind her, and then sinks her in quicksand. Ouch katara fangirls.
I think consistency is what Stan Lee was referring to when he spoke about the preference of the script writer. I find that sometimes there is such a love for Azula's strength as a villain that so many othe benders get shafted in the writing.
Earlier today the Avatar channel had a clip on the various weapons, and included when Piandao called Sokka "more worthy than any man he's trained." I wonder how "worthy" Sokka is compared to Zuko, who wasn't a "man" when trained by Piandao.
Based on feats, Sokka is still well below Zuko, considering their fight in the comics. Which means Piandao was just giving words of encouragement. Or just speaking to Sokka’s dedication, not so much his skill.
I just thought about it. Despite Ming Hua and Toph having a lot in common. Ming Hua is one of the worse fighters to fight Toph. Ming Hua doesn’t touch the ground and can water bend in mid air. I love Ming Hua fighting style.
One big example of this for me is Aang vs Azula. Aang is much more powerful and I’d even argue a much more skilled bender than her as well, but Aang not only holds back in literally EVERY fight but he’s also lowkey afraid of Azula so she gets the upper hand in their engagements. Yet Azula fans will try to argue that bc she’s beaten Aang, she’s stronger than him; which just isn’t true imo
@@AntoineBandele I think it's very arguable whether they'd be able to Ozai or not. But I agree that Azula is slightly stronger than Zuko, so she's more likely to overpower her father🤔
@@AntoineBandele Considering her age, her feats and bending power sure is impressive. So, I think she would be best in her prime form. But as a 12 year old... not really
I didnt know zuko and aang aquired some dragon fire ability😂 wth.. the fire surrounding them was just to show them the true meaning of fire. I dont think it actuslly game them some greater fire.
It's really not the end of the world, and the video was quite informative. But I came to hear Toph/Iroh criticism, and instead got a full length lecture on your versus-what-ifs philosophy with the point of the title being addressed in foot notes here and there through examples to explain your logic. I feel kinda bad criticising you about this because it is still a very good and informative video, but the contrast between title and content is too funny to me.
@@AntoineBandele Ah, I see. Hm, what if you started out the video criticizing Toph/Iroh to stir up the crowd, and then walked them through your logic for the rest of your video, making point after point? What do you think about that idea? However, I guess since you would be answering the question right away, that could mean reduced watchtime and kneejerk reaction comments of people who couldn't be bothered watching past the introduction, hm...
@@AntoineBandele Dang xD I see. Well, I hope you can figure out then how to both create what you want and make it tasty for the masses at the same time. Gotta make it a little bit spicey😏
@@nothinghere8434Iroh feats aren’t that impressive without sozin comet. And Toph has no 1 vs 1 fights. Jeong Jeong as well. And Zaheer also gets overrated.
Ah, you're one of those folks. VS discussion isn't about close matchups all the time (there are actually very few truly close matchups in the franchise). The main point is the discussion of styles and difference.
@@baki484 1) Katara wins 2) Korra wins (and i suspect youre gonna strongly disagree here) 3) Yeh Zuko, though lightning from Mako could give him a win (and no, zuko is not always going to have rediection ready or even available) 4) I dont know this one, Bumi might be able to pull one under with his genius, But i dont think hes breaking through with brute strength and Gazon has the better tools here
@@AntoineBandeleI get you unalaq is the coolest water bender to me, and is probably the most efficient water bender in close range battles in the series, but I'd still put bumi, and tenzin and over him. Aang is hard to scale for me because of how he fights. But I will say In close range aang is the best in the series (seismic sense + plus the bald head sense + plus aangs style of movement ) is just op. Just look at the ozai submission, Also why is azula higher than ozai
@@AntoineBandeleThis tbh. It’s basically the flip side of why people overrate Toph (who is beloved by the majority of the fanbase), and I say this as someone who also likes Toph. I’m excited to hear that you’re trying to bring the Versus series back (although I feel you in that it takes so much time to make the videos). I can’t wait!
@@AntoineBandeleToph’s 2 best feats come from training duels, so it’s up to everyone to decide how good those training duels are. 1. She stalemated King Bumi in the Lost Adventures. While neither were going all out (by their own admissions), they were generating enough power in their fight to shake the entire canyon they fought in. It required the combined efforts of iroh, katara, Zuko, jeong jeong, Pakku and Piandao to separate them. Yes neither were going all out, but shaking an entire canyon as a side effect of a friendly training duel demonstrates an insane amount of power, cause imagine if both of them went all out. Goodbye to whatever town they’re fighting in. Plus, Toph had 0 metalbending in this fight, so while toph vs bumi would be an incredibly close fight, I’m inclined to believe that a decent source of metal would be enough to give toph an extreme diff win. Also, this was EoS Toph, so by the end of the comics she should be even more powerful than she was when she did this feat. 2. She stomps team avatar in a training duel in the lost adventure comics. She catches aang with a rock hand while he’s in the air (so she’s not 100% helpless against airborne opponents), she sinks katara in quicksand, and she trips sokka up by manipulating the ground. There are some important things to note with this fight however. For starters, it’s a training duel so none of them were going all out (though I don’t see how taking the fight seriously would stop toph from sinking katara in quicksand). Secondly, this comic takes place mid book 2, so there is the improvement factor to consider. Still, soloing aang, katara and sokka all at once is a very impressive feat, and one that never gets mentioned by the fandom. Not even the biggest toph fans I’ve seen will mention this fight. Again, they’re training duels and not serious fights, but still very impressive IMO
I wonder if she would lose to Ghazan. That's interesting... I want to say she wouldn't (as she is in the comics now). I think metal bending would be quite effective against Ghazan.
@@AntoineBandele I hear ya but I think lavabending would be More effective against Toph Burntfeet Beifong. But to be fair im not all caught up to the comics
@@tvojamama4888she can be the greatest earth bender I disagree but that doesn't mean she beats other high and top tier benders in different elements. Yailing was able to contend with her and Yailing isn't on Ghazan. Bumi.Kuvira.Jianzhu Yun. level.
Azula is fairly rated. People downplay her because she lost to Katara when she was heavily unstable so it evens it out somewhat. But Toph is top 2 most overrated character in Avatar along with Iroh.
Also as said, people really just overestimate Iroh a bit. I mean I get it, he’s no doubt a powerful warrior and truly accomplished, but people often believe he can just no dif his brother as if it were fact. Not even just taking into account of Iroh stating himself feeling inferior to him, but even when you look at the Sozin’s comet finale, he literally was never shown to fight anyone, and instead just fired a charged blast that wasn’t even nearly as powerful to Ozai’s blast. People can just be too in over their heads when it comes to character biases.
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It is stated that he trained under the Original Masters. The dragons also are sentient beings deliberately training humans. In every case when he chose to fight, he went from "buffoon" to "dragon of the West" stat.
In-setting, it is shown that true mastery of Fire isn't just the "top trumps power level", but discipline and control. That's how Aang as a novice defeated Zhao, Zuko defeated Azula, and Iroh dominated Zhao. Azula and Ozai both are described and shown to be very powerful out of their anger.
So, if you used Ozai or Azula like Jack Horner uses the Phoenix in "The Last Wish", they would indeed be incredibly powerful (and Jack Horner using Ozai as a flame thrower is an image hard to get rid of). One of the main themes of AtlA, however, shows that raw talent isn't sufficient for mastery (Aang/Katara waterbending, Zuko/Azula firebending,...).
To "over-rate" someone is to give him bigger power than what's shown. It isn't possible to "over-rate" Iroh because he's not "rated" in the first place, but a "sleeping giant" who can best everything the writers want him to overcome. In-Setting, there isn't a single fight he doesn't win the moment he choses to commit. (Azula, Zhao, and the whole prison later.) From those hints shown when he choses to fight, up to what is shown in-setting about his training (eg that he trained with the "Original Masters"), it is realistic that he could best Ozai.
Look at the prison at the time of the eclipse, when Fire Benders canonically are weakened; and he did damage to the (fire-proofed) building, so you cannot put that to "the guards were on their eclipse when he did that".
And to be frank, this works incredibly well. Iroh evades fights because of his well-established philosophy, so there is no reason to "rate" him and not give him a "soft rating". Ozai, Zhao or Azula fail when they just aren't powerful enough; Iroh doesn't win because he choses not to fight, which means he can credibly "Zhao" any opponent if he choses to take them on.
It's so many high and top tier benders everyone truly has rivals and there isn't the one strongest bender or one bender who can beat any and everyone.
Well besides Yakone and Amon these 2 are op.
Keep up these kinda videos! I really like the versus series branch of your channel.
Trying to bring it back. It just takes so much time to produce the videos these days.
When it comes to Aang's avatar state, I've realized that a lot of fans overate and hype it up without acknowledging the necessary context behind it. Aang's avatar state is very powerful and there is no denying that but this solely applies to pre-finale Aang. Only pre-finale Aang had an emotionally charged, uncontrolled avatar state. Post finale Aang after mastering the avatar state, we can see he uses it similarly to avatars like Korra, who we've almost only seen using the avatar state with control.
This was further proved in the flashback where we saw Aang doing nothing specifically significant when he entered the avatar state, only to get out of Yakone's grip and take his bending. Also the comics can be used as further context.
So essentially, what I'm trying to say is that using an uncontrolled avatar state as a feat whilst ignoring the fact that the avatar state became significantly more tame after being mastered can be seen as dishonest or at the very least oblivious.
Of course I'm not targeting anyone specifically, just giving my opinion.
Really good point you have there.
This can honestly be the subject of its own video.
My way of seeing the avatar state here can kinda be shown as a swimmer. Well trained avatars are more efficient and splash less than a complete beginner. Aang looks like hes doing a lot, because hes splashing a lot (not a perfect analogy, but its meant to convey the idea that Korra is more in control and thus her bending looks less crazy than aangs)
But you can also admit Aang’s first display of control against Ozai was arguably more impressive than Korra’s ever was in control.
not really tho the as is just as powerful its just used differently cratering an entire city is more impressive than ay singluar feat he did agaist ozai or what he did to old iron an uncontrolled AS is no stronger than his normal one logically that makes 0 sense
I thought the point of learning from the dragons and the sun warriors was primarily to show Zuko another source for his fire, which he had lost access to. The movements in the dance also added to his technique. So I thought he always utilized what he learned there.
He most certainly did. What I’m referring to in the video is his specific use of dragon fire in the comics.
@@AntoineBandele Oh, cool. I haven’t read all the comics yet.
But that's the point of the whole setting.
It has been established long ago (Battle with Zhao, accidentally burning Katara, injuring Toph,......) that the sun warriors/dragons style isn't just "another method", but the correct method while the anger-fueled "dark side of the force"-approach of the Fire Nation is toxic and destructive. In the two instances when Iroh goes full "Dragon of the West" on-screen, it also has been established that this source is much more powerful than the Fire Nation style.
Regardless of how powerful a character is shown to be, it's established that it's always necessary to do some concentration and martial arts gymnastics before fire bending. Azula takes this to perfection when she declares a technique failed because a strand of her hair was out of place.
Then, Iroh jokingly asks if he ever told why he was called "the Dragon of the West", blows on his tea - and then executes a quite powerful sustained fire bending manoeuvre.
That's how the "hint at, don't show"-approach to Iroh's power rating works.
I agree with these commandments its fair cause characters like Iroh and Jeong Jeong have next to no feats and only fight fodder.
Zhao is in no way "fodder". Aang only wins because he doesn't try to win through brute force, but by using Zhao's power against him. Iroh wins easily against Zhao albeit this isn't his main focus, but to get the Moon Spirit back.
Very deliberately, the writers went to great lengths to AVOID "rating" Iroh in the first place. The "rating" of Iroh is perfectly summed up in the Stan Lee quote at the beginning: Iroh can do whatever the writers want/need him to do at that moment, and without going against what was established for him earlier.
Even before learning the "Dancing Dragon" technique, Zuko can use Iroh's lightning-deflection technique he just learned to hold his ground against Ozai - while Iroh goes off-screen through the prison like a wrecking ball.
There is absolutely no reason to doubt that in a direct confrontation, Iroh wouldn't be able to win against Ozai - his reason not to fight is that "a Royal defeating another Royal" is well in-line with the Fire Nation system post-Sozin, and wouldn't solve the (systemic) problem. To change that, an outsider - from a group the Fire Nation destroyed 100 years ago, no less - has to take on the "undefeated" Fire Nation and win.
Itoh is a "powerful character done right". No viewer would bat an eye if he canonically became the "sun spirit" himself, because his writing is left so open. From all the criticisms, controversies and - most of all - non-troversies about TLoK, I haven't seen yet anyone criticising that Iroh had a "corporeal ascension" into the Spirit World - which, considering the Avatar setting is a Western story written in "Wonton-Fonts", normally would be quite a big thing. That's simply because nobody was given a reason to find such an ascension "over-powered", "over-rated", "out of left field" or anything along those lines. Iroh just is one powerful bender (and I hope I haven't just created the monster of a Rule-34-Iroh-Katara-"ship").
@@enysuntra1347Iroh has no feats to show it.
@@enysuntra1347going to the spirit world isn’t a combat feat and doesn’t make him stronger than the other benders.
Most of the benders in Tlok are young so why do they want to go to the spirit world when they die.
Only Toph. Zuko. Katara are old and they aren’t spiritual benders.
Iroh and jeong Jeong are top tier however so is Lin.Ghazan. Combustion man. Ming Hua and everyone in Lotus tier. Feats tell how you do in a fight against your peers and rivals. Everyone in Lotus tier are rivals to Iroh/Jeong Jeong.
@@enysuntra1347Katara has fought Zuko and Azula and won she has a good track record of one vs ones. Iroh and jeong Jeong and Toph not so much.
These commandments seem like a good guide to follow in for character match ups. So are these also used for Star Wars match-ups too?
Antoine Bandele always seems to follow the Standard Battle Assumptions of the VS Battles Wiki, which are applicable to all VS Battles, unless the OP states otherwise.
So in all the VS Series I’ve seen with Antoine, he does these fights morals on, in neutral environments that don’t favour one side or the other, he uses the strongest versions we’ve seen for both characters so they’re at their best (excluding unfair amps or hypothetical adult versions), he lets them have standard gear (so kuvira doesn’t get the colossus mech in a fight with Azula for example), there’s no prep time, there’s an even starting distance between the 2 combatants so that neither has an unfair advantage, etc.
The Standard Battle Assumptions are simply the default laws for all VS battles (avatar, Star Wars, marvel, karate kid, etc). The reason why they’re default rules is simply to give a set of guidelines for all vs battles when the OP doesn’t specify any context to the fights. They’re not absolute laws fortunately so tons of people can make VS battles with special rules like the characters are bloodlusted, they’re amped, they fight in a certain environment that favours one character to balance things out, etc, but they have to specify these changes to the battle assumptions to make them applicable.
I agree with this 💯 percent
We made that tier list on avatar vs battles we voted.
Yup yup! It's a VERY good tier list.
Didn’t they move iroh down to lotus master tier for not having concrete feats, yet kept Gyatso at grandmaster tier?
@@darthvenamis1396 that I never understood. Either keep both in grandmaster tier for their hype, or move both of them down a tier for lack of feats. Iroh doesn’t have many feats, but he certainly has a lot more than Gyatso.
@@Wes_Bradley-Taubner yeah iroh and Gyatso should both be treated the same when it comes to ranking characters who don’t have many feats
And yes, there are also things about their tier list I don't agree with. For example, I do think Iroh should still be in Lotus Master Tier based on hype. But he should NOT be at the top of that tier due to lack of 1v1 feats.
I agree with the funnel 100 percent.
Thanks!
Kuvira. Unalaq. Ming Hua. Jianzhu are some deadly benders that I love their precise technical style of bending.
If I was a bender I’d fight just like Unalaq/Kuvira.
we overrate certain characters due to (in part) our nostalgia for them. so characters we overrate often are toph and iroh. and people occasionally overrate azula. i don't thin we overrate aang's uncontrollable avatar state since the uncontrolled state is the other avatars working together, maybe the best way to put it is its the state most likely to just do large AOE attacks, which to anyone besides another avatar/dark avatar would demolish.
I think Azula is usually properly rated, so long as someone doesn’t go as far as saying she’s better than Ozai or some such.
@@AntoineBandelecomic Azula gets overrated especially compared to Kuvira. Pli. King Bumi. Unalaq.
The same order you have is the same order I have. I always have quality of victories as number one. It’s impressive when benders fight other top tier or high tier benders instead of just fodder.
Like Katara fighting Azula and Zuko.
Or Suyin fighting Kuvira and Pli.
Or Tonraq fighting Unalaq.
Morw points to Tenzin being a top tier in the verse
Yup. I definitely need to do a redo of Iroh vs Tenzin (without Iroh hype).
@@AntoineBandele Yes please I've loved your videos forever and would love to see that
@@Kingshit69 Tenzin is too underrated
@@darthvenamis1396 🤝🏾
@@darthvenamis1396by iroh stans yes.
That iroh vs tenzin video proved how overrated iroh is.
The way Toph handled herself in battle in the wrestling ring, against the entire Ba Sing Se palace guard and against the Dai Li tell me she’s not overrated at all. Not to mention how she still was able to train Korra and rescue her family in her old age.
Toph is overrated within the FANDOM not necessarily in verse, she is rated quite accurately in the verse but it’s excessive when you see fans claim she is better than Aang or could beat Avatar Kyoshi in a fight etc… especially since she defeated nothing but fodders the entire show
When someone says overated, they dont mean how strong they are, they mean that their perception of how strong a character is, is lower than that of the public perception.
Now Toph fanatics would have you believe shes absolute nuts at combat...... But theres me wondering where shes fought a single non canon fodder combatant.
Even against Korra, she looked good cause Korra was poisoned, so of course Toph looked impressive.
@@avatarmufasa3628 you just said everything and more… literally there was a viral tweet on Twitter (or X) yesterday about Toph vs Katara vs Azula vs Korra and everyone in the replies saying Korra would lose to Toph easily or Toph would defeat all 3 and it’s like… where did she display any of this prowess on anyone that isn’t fodder?
Welp. You all said what I would’ve said already 😅
She fought fodder in the wrestling ring.
The Bai Sing se palace also fodder.
I think people overrate Azula more than Toph, tbh. Part of that being because she has blue flames, she must somehow be stronger than Ozai in their eyes (and yet the comparison to Iroh never comes up...). But outside of Suki, Zuko, or her introduction, how many of her fights have actually had a decisive finish without someone interfering or running away?
So long as folks aren’t putting Azula > Ozai, I don’t think she’s overrated. If anything, Azula gets properly rated by most (who don’t say silliness like her being better than Ozai).
I could not agree more. Of all the characters I’ve seen across fiction, Azula is the one with the most amount of feats and fights that are either taken out of context or greatly exaggerated by her fans. I can’t think of a single fight she’s been in where it was either a fair victory or wasn’t taken out of context by her fans.
Her fights against Aang are pretty great victories under her bet. But, for me, they comes from psychological warfare more than anything else.
@@AntoineBandeleI disagree. Most of their fights, aang had an environment disadvantage along with another disadvantage.
Onashu fight, aang had 0 access to water, he has yet to learn the other 2 elements, and he focused on saving bumi while Azula was 100% focused on aang. Despite this, the fight ended in bumi separating the 2 after the fight escalated into a chase.
Second fight in that town, again, no water for aang, he had yet to learn the other 2 elements, and he was weakened and exhausted by sleep deprivation (something Azula herself acknowledged). Aang lost the fight, but he still did very well despite the environment and exhaustion disadvantages.
Third fight at the wall, aang only had enough water for a tiny whip, so he only had access to earth and air (and he had massively underdeveloped earth at the time). And still, aang one by ragdolling her with that final air blast.
Fourth fight in the catacombs, aang finally had access to a proper water source (though he still has yet to learn firebending). The fight was even but neither of them truly defeated each other as aang was ready to fight Zuko and Azula until the dai li showed up, which forced him to enter the avatar state (and then Azula fans are like “sHe KiLlEd AaNg In ThE AvAtAr StAtE”, even though it was a cheap shot with lightning on an aang who wasn’t paying attention to her at all. EoS aang would’ve just redirected that lightning).
Fifth fight isn’t even a fight. It’s just Azula running away from toph, aang and sokka while dodging their attacks (with minor assistance from the dai li agents). Incredible speed, agility and tactics, don’t get me wrong, but it’s hilarious how every Azula fan says she “Held her own against aang, toph and sokka without bending” when she didn’t hold her own in a fight, rather evaded them in a chase
@@darthvenamis1396
You seem to be under the impression that if aangs full bending needs arent catered for then hes at some disadvantage to Azula. And in all of these environments Aang had a wide open space, and plenty of capacity to use his airbending to the fullest. Its honestly quite rare to get every element fully optimised, and so when considering Aang vs Azula, perhaps dont try to go for as much as possible, be realistic.
In all the fights Aang engaged with Azula, he didnt really get much on her at all. You mentioned the catacombs fight, you say they fight evenly, but only Azula gets a good hit in. knocking Aang back and hurting him. I dont need to rely on the lightning strike for azula (its merely a sneak attack afterall), its just clear she got more hits in and thus performed better than Aang did.
"And still, aang one by ragdolling her with that final air blast."
Except he didnt. During the drill, Azula again gets lots of hits in and is ready to fight even at the end, but is alas too far away to continue. The only way Aang "wins" the fight is because his mission was completed, not because he successfully defeated azula
Even if Aang had other motives in his fights against azula, the point stands that he was never on top of her in any of the engagements. But the reverse isnt true.
Very well crafted video, people do overestimate Toph quite a bit, largely just due to bias. She really is mostly shown to body earthbenders, and despite being amazing, could still lose to someone like King Bumi, and is just isn’t as effective especially against master air, water or fire benders due to her condition, and just can’t sense those elements properly.
Toph has blocked attacks from waterbenders and firebenders numerous times.
It’s the airbenders who she seems to struggle against the most, but waterbenders and firebenders are fine.
Thanks. And yeah, it only seems her greatest weakness is against airbenders. And maybe firebenders like Azula or Ozai with their fire-jets. But whenever she had her little spats with Katara, she was able to keep pace and even win once in a comic.
@@darthvenamis1396yeah she never blocked attacks from water benders and couldn't see water attacks at time
@@AntoineBandelethat was during season 2 that comic and katara didn't have access to water she fought katara in mud.
@@kyleskendle6452 she blocked katara’s waves in the comics, so I don’t know what you’re talking about. In the comics, she blocks katara’s wave, tunnels behind her, and then sinks her in quicksand. Ouch katara fangirls.
I think consistency is what Stan Lee was referring to when he spoke about the preference of the script writer. I find that sometimes there is such a love for Azula's strength as a villain that so many othe benders get shafted in the writing.
This! Same with Toph as well (and Iroh too to an extent)
No fans are just bias towards azula and toph
Iroh.Azula and Toph gets too overrated
Earlier today the Avatar channel had a clip on the various weapons, and included when Piandao called Sokka "more worthy than any man he's trained." I wonder how "worthy" Sokka is compared to Zuko, who wasn't a "man" when trained by Piandao.
Based on feats, Sokka is still well below Zuko, considering their fight in the comics. Which means Piandao was just giving words of encouragement. Or just speaking to Sokka’s dedication, not so much his skill.
Hopefully with avatar studios Iroh and jeong Jeong get a little more feats. Maybe when they were younger fighting skilled benders and not fodder.
I just thought about it. Despite Ming Hua and Toph having a lot in common. Ming Hua is one of the worse fighters to fight Toph. Ming Hua doesn’t touch the ground and can water bend in mid air. I love Ming Hua fighting style.
One big example of this for me is Aang vs Azula. Aang is much more powerful and I’d even argue a much more skilled bender than her as well, but Aang not only holds back in literally EVERY fight but he’s also lowkey afraid of Azula so she gets the upper hand in their engagements. Yet Azula fans will try to argue that bc she’s beaten Aang, she’s stronger than him; which just isn’t true imo
💯
genuine question here do you think Azula and Zuko in their prime could beat Ozai in a 1v1
No idea what their primes are atm. Of the two, Azula is more likely.
@@AntoineBandele I think it's very arguable whether they'd be able to Ozai or not. But I agree that Azula is slightly stronger than Zuko, so she's more likely to overpower her father🤔
azula still in the top 5 is insane😭 she was really about that action
Toph is one of the best Earthbenders, not the best. Toph's strength of being blind is also her biggest weakness.
This is what more folks need to understand (she is ONE OF the best).
@@AntoineBandele Considering her age, her feats and bending power sure is impressive. So, I think she would be best in her prime form. But as a 12 year old... not really
My simping for Asami solos the rest of the verse tbh it gives me frieza level strength
i agree 100%
I didnt know zuko and aang aquired some dragon fire ability😂 wth.. the fire surrounding them was just to show them the true meaning of fire. I dont think it actuslly game them some greater fire.
In the comics, Zuko uses dragon fire in one instance.
@@AntoineBandele I've read most of them but I'm not finished yet😂 I gotta check it out
It happens in Smoke and Shadow.
👍
It's really not the end of the world, and the video was quite informative. But I came to hear Toph/Iroh criticism, and instead got a full length lecture on your versus-what-ifs philosophy with the point of the title being addressed in foot notes here and there through examples to explain your logic.
I feel kinda bad criticising you about this because it is still a very good and informative video, but the contrast between title and content is too funny to me.
It's the TH-cam game, unfortunately.
@@AntoineBandele
Ah, I see.
Hm, what if you started out the video criticizing Toph/Iroh to stir up the crowd, and then walked them through your logic for the rest of your video, making point after point?
What do you think about that idea?
However, I guess since you would be answering the question right away, that could mean reduced watchtime and kneejerk reaction comments of people who couldn't be bothered watching past the introduction, hm...
The original title of the video was about power levels in general. When I changed title, the click through rate went up.
@@AntoineBandele
Dang xD I see. Well, I hope you can figure out then how to both create what you want and make it tasty for the masses at the same time.
Gotta make it a little bit spicey😏
@@nothinghere8434Iroh feats aren’t that impressive without sozin comet. And Toph has no 1 vs 1 fights.
Jeong Jeong as well. And Zaheer also gets overrated.
Yet the conclusion when it comes to these avatar versus matches are obvious.
Huh? 🤔
The verdict is predictable.
Katara vs Zuko
Aang vs Korra
Mako vs Zuko
King Bumi vs Gazon
I saw the outcome before the vs match begins.
Ah, you're one of those folks. VS discussion isn't about close matchups all the time (there are actually very few truly close matchups in the franchise). The main point is the discussion of styles and difference.
@@baki484
1) Katara wins
2) Korra wins (and i suspect youre gonna strongly disagree here)
3) Yeh Zuko, though lightning from Mako could give him a win (and no, zuko is not always going to have rediection ready or even available)
4) I dont know this one, Bumi might be able to pull one under with his genius, But i dont think hes breaking through with brute strength and Gazon has the better tools here
@@baki484none of those are obvious
Atla stans think they are but they aren't all of those are fairly even
Algorithm
Yes 2
Yes 3
3rd comment, nice video!
Why are unalaq and korra so high is it because of spirit bending
Because they are extremely competent fighters who constantly get downplayed because they are not favored as characters.
@@AntoineBandeleI get you unalaq is the coolest water bender to me, and is probably the most efficient water bender in close range battles in the series, but I'd still put bumi, and tenzin and over him.
Aang is hard to scale for me because of how he fights. But I will say In close range aang is the best in the series (seismic sense + plus the bald head sense + plus aangs style of movement ) is just op. Just look at the ozai submission,
Also why is azula higher than ozai
@@AntoineBandeleThis tbh. It’s basically the flip side of why people overrate Toph (who is beloved by the majority of the fanbase), and I say this as someone who also likes Toph. I’m excited to hear that you’re trying to bring the Versus series back (although I feel you in that it takes so much time to make the videos). I can’t wait!
@@danielfame2940you need to look at unalaq feats.
@@danielfame2940aang isn't the best fighter in the franchise not close not even the best in ATLA
Toph isn't overated, she's said to be the best earthbender(not bender) based on her enhanced senses from her lack of sight
Answer me this. Who is the most significant fighter Toph has beaten in the show or comics?
@@AntoineBandeleToph’s 2 best feats come from training duels, so it’s up to everyone to decide how good those training duels are.
1. She stalemated King Bumi in the Lost Adventures. While neither were going all out (by their own admissions), they were generating enough power in their fight to shake the entire canyon they fought in. It required the combined efforts of iroh, katara, Zuko, jeong jeong, Pakku and Piandao to separate them. Yes neither were going all out, but shaking an entire canyon as a side effect of a friendly training duel demonstrates an insane amount of power, cause imagine if both of them went all out. Goodbye to whatever town they’re fighting in. Plus, Toph had 0 metalbending in this fight, so while toph vs bumi would be an incredibly close fight, I’m inclined to believe that a decent source of metal would be enough to give toph an extreme diff win. Also, this was EoS Toph, so by the end of the comics she should be even more powerful than she was when she did this feat.
2. She stomps team avatar in a training duel in the lost adventure comics. She catches aang with a rock hand while he’s in the air (so she’s not 100% helpless against airborne opponents), she sinks katara in quicksand, and she trips sokka up by manipulating the ground. There are some important things to note with this fight however. For starters, it’s a training duel so none of them were going all out (though I don’t see how taking the fight seriously would stop toph from sinking katara in quicksand). Secondly, this comic takes place mid book 2, so there is the improvement factor to consider. Still, soloing aang, katara and sokka all at once is a very impressive feat, and one that never gets mentioned by the fandom. Not even the biggest toph fans I’ve seen will mention this fight.
Again, they’re training duels and not serious fights, but still very impressive IMO
She is overrated she only fought weak fodder no skilled bender and she said she's the best not the creators
@@darthvenamis1396you proved how overrated she is
@@darthvenamis1396her and bumi they were sparring not that impressive.
Her and katara that comic was from season 2 and there wasn't any water nearby
Toph is physically the most powerful earthbender in the series, but she would lose to Ghazan.
I wonder if she would lose to Ghazan. That's interesting... I want to say she wouldn't (as she is in the comics now). I think metal bending would be quite effective against Ghazan.
@@AntoineBandele I hear ya but I think lavabending would be More effective against Toph Burntfeet Beifong. But to be fair im not all caught up to the comics
Most powerful not based on feats bumi is.
@@AntoineBandeleher metal isn't good like lin suyin and kuvira
@@kyleskendle6452yeah as a kid she can't throw it like they can around yet.
Toph and Azula are massively overrated
Azula can sometimes be slightly overrated. Toph is entirely unproven in comparison, though.
@@AntoineBandele fans tend to cite various novels and character books from official sources that say she is the greatest earthbender
@@tvojamama4888she can be the greatest earth bender I disagree but that doesn't mean she beats other high and top tier benders in different elements.
Yailing was able to contend with her and Yailing isn't on Ghazan.
Bumi.Kuvira.Jianzhu Yun. level.
Azula is fairly rated. People downplay her because she lost to Katara when she was heavily unstable so it evens it out somewhat. But Toph is top 2 most overrated character in Avatar along with Iroh.
Yes