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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.พ. 2025
- The universal basic income - a podcast by Steven Sumpter
• His blog post ► tinyurl.com/ktt...
• Facebook ► tinyurl.com/l9c...
• Twitter ► / latentexistence
• TH-cam ► / latentexistence
• Google + ► tinyurl.com/kc5...
Source of audio: tinyurl.com/mp3...
Please check also these links:
"The Forgotten Struggles of Single Mothers for Basic Income"
tinyurl.com/omg...
a blog
tinyurl.com/ke7...
a town without poverty
• a town without poverty
USA - Rich vs Poor
• USA - Rich vs Poor
It's the 21st century -- why are we working so much?
www.guardian.co...
interesting statistics
epp.eurostat.ec...
Universal Basic Income Calculator
www.nextnewdeal...
Jobs Are Not the Answer
truth-out.org/o...
Basic income in the United Kingdom
en.wikipedia.or...
The amount of suffering, stress, anxiety, poverty, and bureaucracy this would remove from society would be great, and would save resources in having to deal with the crime and ill health effects associated with poverty. Time to implement this now.
I don't understand this stigma against those who don't want to work. We don't get much time on this earth, and many of us, our time may be cut short. Meanwhile, so many people dedicate 30-40 hours of their lives a week doing something they hate. And for what? A sense of living security? That they MIGHT get rewarded with the luxury to retire when they've worked hard enough? We spend so much of our precious time and energy trying to make a "living", that we forget to...well...live.
I might not be doing anything but "lying around the house", but at least it would be my choice to do so.
I think along the same lines. 5 of your 7 days are spent at work (more if you're something like a doctor). Then consider, you will usually work 8 hours in those 5, plus travel time. This adds up to 30 to 40 hours a week like you said. At the end of each year, a good percentage of your money is taken from tax (as much as 45% here), so to get the actual amount you were promised you have to double your hours.
Currently you work 71% of your week based on days (21% based on hours), but it takes up the hours of the day you can actually do stuff with (daylight hours). Then when you retire, you have no energy to enjoy that money if you even have enough to retire to luxury
I doubt that many people would sit around and do nothing. Here's my theory about how it would go.
Many quit their jobs and take time to vacation or just do nothing.
After a short time. Less than 2 months maybe. People will start seeking employment in areas that are interested in. A lot of self employed business would pop up.
Others would spend their time educating themselves and learning new skills.
Jobs would fill up again.
There would be great advancements in all areas of technology.
Most people work more than 30-40 hours per week just to barely afford rent. It's pretty sad actually
Yessss yesssss yessss someone with the exact same thinking as mine! I'm 18, but never asked to turn 18. I didn't choose to be 18, I didn't want this. Yet people expect me to grow up just because I hit a certain number. A freaking number. I'm gonna be a high school senior this fall and am dreading it. I used to always hate school, but realizing that I'm about to be a senior really hit me hard because it's my last resort of childhood. Now I'd rather stay in high school for the rest of my life than graduate being scared to death of the so called "real world." I mean what is even real? Isn't everything an illusion? I mean, we grow up in a society that brainwashes us into thinking we have to work, act a certain way, and so on. And if we don't do these things just because countless other people in the world already do, we are seen as losers. I don't have to work if don't want to. I just want to make money easily without having to wake up everyday going to some place I hate. Why can't we live without having to pay for everything, such as your home, water, electrify, all those things. It doesn't even make sense that we have to do that. Yes it is necessary to pay for food and clothes because if all that was free then it would be hard to even have access to those things because they would constantly be all gone. But having to pay for your home, water, electricity, all that crap, why is that necessary? It's not fair. I would be much happy to make money from home doing things I love with my interests and hobbies, and only having to pay for food and clothes, and nothing more. I would be less terrified of the "real world" if life was like that. I wanna live comfortable with only having to pay for the things that keep us alive and warm, such as food and clothes.
you are very smart yng lady,i agree 100%.
You're absolutely correct. Their is nothing worse than working with people that don't want to be there. Everyone should receive basic income. Those who want to work will and the work place environment would greatly improve.
I wish we didn't have to work. I wish I could stay home and watch soccer or play video games all day long and get up or do whatever I wanted when I wanted and wake up when ever I wanted. I wish I could enjoy my days more than spend 8 hours working with people I don't like and come home with a migraine. I wish I could enjoy my family more. I wish I could take a vacation to Europe and not worry about money or anything.
Your comment is pretty stupid.
Michael Molli His comment is how life should be, Why should a human work when a machine can do that job with better productivity.
Pardon me, I suspected sarcasm.
dwakeling1
Good question. It was the part: ""... play video games all day long ..."". Usually people who have lost all their trust in society come with this argument. Besides the fact that nobody is solely egoistic (and if yes, then it has a reason that can be found in capitalism), actually it's no one's business what people do with their lifes.
Michael Molli Assuming, for the sake of argument that Andrii Shevchenko is serious, he's exactly the sort of person I'd rather not have in the workforce. Get guys like him out, and let those jobs which still require human beings be done by human beings who are hard workers. I don't think people at the office, or on the assembly line, or at the fast food joint really want to have to take up the slack of an Andrii Shevchenko who is doing barely enough to not get fired, and they SURE don't want to have to worry that some day he's going to bring a gun to the job he hates, and point it at the co-workers he hates.
Pay Andrii Shevchenko a living wage to stay home and not cause trouble.
problem... this gives individuals control over their lives and takes it away from the super rich slave drivers.
The slave drivers that pay for the roads you drive on, the hospitals, schools , take on my work load and see who has it unfairly you jealous communist
@@edwardwoolley876 our "masters" are the reason we can live??" PLease...we all need each other here...and remember just a few hundred years ago we were numerous small farms and businesses, prior to the industrial rev!!
@@JayJman1000
And where did the money come from to kickstart/fuel the industrial Rev...........
That heinous trade in human cargo...........
Slavery
Rather naively, while growing up I did as I was told. There wasn't any reason to question, there was an order to the world and this is what you had to do to live in it. So I went to school, college and then university. I got qualified in information systems management because I had an interest in working with computers. This is the stuff online business runs on, so it seemed like an appropriate choice in the information age. In 2009 I got my degree, despite the recession I set out into what I believed to be the next inevitable step and looked for employment.
The end of 2013 and I am still looking for work... No matter how many jobs are applied for, both in my field or entry level, no one was interested in someone who didn't pop into existence with a couple of years of on the job experience under their belt. In 2010 I managed to get a voluntary administrative role at Remploy, which only lasted a few months as the government cuts shut the factory down. Today I've managed to get volunteer work as a retail assistant in a charity shop since March, but rarely if ever get a response to any job applications; even with the shop experience on the CV. I also do voluntary work helping to dig over beds in the local allotment during weekends, not job seeking related but I enjoy gardening and the one at home is block paved.
The government talks about people such as myself like we're scum, they're only concerned about youth unemployment; which I was once upon a time. We're demonised in the media for not working but I cannot force employers to hire me. They have A4E breathing down my neck, who seem to do nothing to help me find work but threaten to sanction me if I miss one of their useless appointments. I fear for when my time runs out and I'm forced onto the work programme under threat of sanctioning, were I'll likely have to provide free labour for the very companies who never responded to my job applications.
I don't know if what is suggested in this video is a potential solution, I doubt it is on the table with the UK government. All I know is the present situation is soul destroying. I want to work, it just doesn't seem to be on offer.
Thanks very much for your comment.
Please hang in there - the social system must be updated sooner or later. Automation is destroying work places on a big scale and this process has only just begun. The latest news say, that we will lose about 45% of employments over the next 20 years - you'll find detailed information about this with Google.
Governments all over the western world are still punishing the unemployed for not finding work, instead of taking appropriate action like abolishing sanctions at least.
Basic Income is being discussed thorough, specially in the german speaking countries. Switzerland is going to make a decision within the next 3 years whether to introduce the basic income. This cannot be ignored much longer as the world is changing now in a fast pace. Whatever is going to happen, one thing is for sure - time will change everything.
Michael Molli What I don't understand is why a government that so hates those on benefits, that actively encourages the demonisation of the unemployed and disabled who are not in work. Would also actively vandalise people's ability to find work.
Every unpaid workfare placement is one less paid job available for people trying to find work, so the very system is self justifying. Why would a company advertise paid jobs when if they just wait they will have all the free labour they could possibly want?
They're beating up people for being unemployed with one hand, then taking away jobs for them to go into with the other.
Michael Molli I am "hanging in there" but i wonder how many years it will take. The situation is getting ridiculous, specially here in Portugal. Me, my mother, lots of cousins in their 20's like myself just wanting to start their lives and their parents can't find a work anywhere. Everything keeps getting more expensive and if it keeps like this we that not many years ago were medium / low medium class and had enough to participate actively in society will soon lose our homes and end up on the streets. Seriously, there are countries in the EU with more than 30% unemployment, how are we supposed to live?
José Andrade
I have heard about the incredible situation on the internet. Television stations won't show it. If it was up to me, I would change the world beyond recognition - nobody must be allowed to own more than 1 or 2 properties and neither must anyone own more than 1 million Euro in cash. I know as well as you do - states all over the world hold the monopoly on the use of force and they use it against us citizen in order to protect the wealthy. The question seems to be: how do we win the war against the governemnt (who represents the corporations)? Remember: all social changes had to be fight for hard throughout human history.
Michael Molli Channel 4 in the UK (sorry not sure where you're from) released a show called "Benefits Street" recently. I refuse to watch it, as just looking at people's response to it tells me everything. It's a series designed to provoke public hate towards the unemployed, portraying them as criminal work shy scum. Coincidentally this was released by a state owned news organisation, on the same day they announced another £12 billion in welfare cuts...
It's as if they intentionally created a programme demonising the unemployed, so when they announced the cuts there would be less backlash. This is our own government doing this, not some fringe hate group.
It's hard to be optimistic when instead of helping you; the government is rallying an angry mob against people who cannot find employment, because it distracts from the problems they cannot fix.
No one is really lazy. People are actually love working, as long they get do the job that they love and enjoy doing it. This idea is going to work and will happen. Humanity is on the rising right now, any ideas that benefits the human race as a whole will be supported. :))
You're not supposed to love and enjoy your work, you're supposed to do something useful for your fellow people. Nobody enjoys cleaning public toilets or driving ambulances all day, people do it because they know it's important.
All discussions about solutions to the financial crises, or economic problems always remind me of a joke. "How do you save someone from suffocating?" and the answer is "stop squeezing his neck". That's basically how I feel about the economy. Get rid once and for all of fiat money and compound interest on bank created money, get rid of income taxes, tax just land value, and give everyone a basic income for housing and food. Stop squeezing everyone's neck and magically scarcity will disappear, crime rates will drop overnight, etc, etc. IMO we've been all brainwashed from the craddle. Just think of the expression "to earn a living". It's implicit that if you don't earn a living you earn to die, right?
I believe that if people have more free time, they will eventually figure out how disastrous our monetary system actually is, as it's the root cause for every financial injustice globally. For this to happen we need to separate having a job from being able to survive. This can be done easily with basic income.
Fer Abra you're right, we need to get rid of fiat currency, but how do you think the govt would supply everyone with a universal income? Through a powerful central bank! As I work and save money, my neck is being squeezed less and less, and that is because of choices I made in a free capitalist economy. Read Milton Freidmans; "Capitalism and Freedom". He explains masterfully how economic independence from any govt is the only way to truly have liberty. Governments never look out for the best interest of the people and will always corrupt. Govt only stands to serve govt, almost all of them throughout history prove this. So, I would go as far as to say the idea is exquisite, but govt is not and never is the instrument of goodness that we expect it to be.
ITS NOT A PIPE DREAM AND ITS WORTH FIGHTING FOR GLOBAL BASIC INCOME FOR ALL!!!!
+fkusrnms Agrred although it will probably take violent revolution for this to happen.. The billionaire aren't going to give up without a fight
+badpanda84 No need for fighting. The key to success lies in making people aware of the idea.
You clearly have no understanding of economics
It's the current system that's highly controversial, not this.
Btw, broadband is as basic a commodity as water & electricity. Why is it that those who want to punish the unemployed always classify internet access as a luxury? It's because they're dinosaurs.
Honestly, a Universal Base Income is something that I've been thinking about for years, but didn't quite know what the name for it was till just recently as I was researching the future of the world and how every job's becoming Automated. 5 years ago, I would of scoffed at the idea of a fully Automated work force, but now, I see it hitting us hard not even 10 years from now, and with a prediction stating 80% of jobs will be fully automated by 2045, this is a very real threat to human life.
What I do believe will need to be implemented in order for the world to survive and prosper is the implementation of a Universal Base Income. If it is not implemented, the worlds economy (not just the US's economy) will implode as more business decide to become automated as a means to cut labor. What this will do is put more people out of work, thus in the end, the businesses will destroy themselves because they were the cause of unemployment, thus causing their own demise. Now, I cannot hate businesses for doing this, on the contrary, it will bring new light to the world as businesses will quickly realize how harmful the shift is and thus realize that it endangers not just us, but them as well. Once that happens, THEY will push for this, because they would be in the same boat as everyone else because of their own ignorance.
What's really funny tho is that once the big businesses push (because they control the politicians), things will change, and quickly. But unlike before, where the change was minuscule and insignificant, this change will lead to a more prosperous world, because no more will we be controlled by jobs or bosses, and as such we can grow financially, and thus start actually building wealth, building a life WE want. We can create, invent, cure, we can achieve what we want at that point and live full lives, travel, indulge in different cultures, everything. So honestly, I hope this comes quicker, cause it will bring about a better life for us all.
+Geoff Roach I think their are two basic paths before us, the one envisioned here and the one the Fats Cats have planned. They are already setting us up to have everything we need to work long hours (for more profit and vanity) polishing and shining the automated machines if need be, and then going back to our module and hooking up to our google VR machine (matrix) and taking our Soma to de-stress from all that mindless polishing.
"Why use money at all?"
Because money is an automatic accounting system.
An efficient production arrangement has to record the varying amount and quality of resources that go into producing a service or commodity. This is an aspect of economic reality.
The only problem with money is that it has been stolen from us. We have to get it back. Join the Positive Money project.
When you remove the strain of living the knock on effect will likely be happier citizens. Calmer parents, people finding the time to enjoy life as well as educating our children that serving society is a worthwhile commitment be it through science or teaching or gardening or following a passion for music. The whole idea of progress was so we didn't have to work are arses off . We only get one shot of life we should be able to follow our own dreams.
+Julie Daniels Very well put.... I agree.... Somehow progress got hijacked by this nightmare most of us are currently experiencing.
First we introduce the basic income and then we work on changing the monetary system - not the other way around.
Read this:
"The Forgotten Struggles of Single Mothers for Basic Income"
www.academia.edu/4509927/Missing_Women_The_Forgotten_Struggles_of_Single_Mothers_for_Basic_Income
+M. Molli a-fucking-men!
+M. Molli a disorder of an individual, say a broken back or even autism, which prevents that individual from living a "normal" life and or earning an income, is just as much a disorder of society itself. why is it that individuals are expected to fit society without question, whereas nobody ever questions the fact that society as a whole does a very poor job at accommodating diverse groups of individuals? if you have a society wherein there are individual with disorders, it should be said that the society itself is also disordered.
Stephen both automation and low wage slave labor do not produce taxes. Propose also a Universal Basic Tax that would equally generate revenue from everything that is sold!
theyll never do this.
***** i forget what this video is about but i'm assuming it's about a basic guaranteed income. they've planned small scale experiments, which might already be in progress, in different regions around the world (the east coast of canada and, if i remember correctly, somewhere down in the states and europe).
Have faith. It's not too late yet.
services for the poor cost more- in taxes than a basic income
here in america homelessness costs 4 times as much as housing
Workfare for a family of 3 costs more than welfare would cost for 3 families
no safety net costs more that a safety
With all the new technology, even supermarket cashier jobs have been ended. The whole point of machines was to give us more leisure time, so why complain when that is the result? You talk common sense, and are very logical, unlike all politicians who are just out to line their own nests. Good luck to you.
adrian whiteley, that is not the whole point of machines. The whole point is to boost the company's bottom line.
This isn't a novel idea. The same concept used to be called "social ownership of the means of production", which implied appropriation of the surplus product by all workers as opposed to a class of private owners.
The contemporary basic income movement tends to overlook how it should be financed. And that is through the society-wide public ownership of the means of producing wealth, with progressively shorter hours of work resulting from productivity gains and automation. This would also solve the major source of wealth inequality.
+Battle4cry That stinks of Marxism.
The whole thing is much simpler to understand: The government taxes the robots and then gives that money to the unemployed. It will work until singularity happens. Then we become pets of the robots. Or Godlike. one or the other.
+agun17 What I described above is the basic definition of socialism, yes. Marxism does have an explanation for the underlying causes of technological unemployment, but that's beside the point.
Social ownership of robots (automated productive capacity) is more direct and effective than heavily taxing private investors and enterprises who own robots, which is subject to reversal (the business elite have massive amounts of power over the political process and will claim that high tax rates are confiscatory and diminish their reward for engaging in business). Social ownership is thus much less contradictory, and a variant of market socialism can be utilized until the singularity happens.
This is great.can't wait for this to happen.
Yeah, let's do it! All society would benefit on that.
I really hope this happens in my lifetime. (17 years old.)
+This name is either restricted, too long, or contains too many invalid characters. Its possible that we can make it happen... the next step after hope is action. "Be the change you want too see" Ghandi.
23. if they held a referendum on it, i'd actually get to a polling booth and vote yes
Damn you are 22 now hows life
Income tax is coercion & extortion. These immoral practices have no place in our individual lives, or social order.
This is a great idea that also accelerates automation and efficiency.
medium.com/basic-income/universal-basic-income-as-the-social-vaccine-of-the-21st-century-d66dff39073
There is a movement in Switzerland called "1:12".
They say the person at the top within a company must not be allowed to earn 12 times more than the person at the bottom. Looking at how the relation of the different incomes has been skewed over the last decade, we find the gap between the top and the bottom has become so incredible big. What do you think about the idea?
What a great idea!
If you imagine a small island with 30 inhabitants where everyone has to work to contribute to the food supply, water supply, house building & maintenance, etc. if they were to get slaves to do all the work, would they have to work?
Robots are the 21st century slaves. Let's exploit this opportunity before they become sentient.
And it's true: no work means no fun because you don't have *free* time when you don't work. You simply have time. Fridays and Sundays are the same when you don't work. It all becomes an immutable passage of time with no ups and downs, just a constant state of "meh".
good points made, and i fully support the idea
but please spell check the subtitles.. spelling words like "divided" wrong is inexcusable and may dent the credibility of the video
the point you make at 7:34 is why the powerful will fight the idea
people often dismiss universal basic income by insisting it would ruin the incentive for work. why would anyone work? some people ask. well, people would work for the same reason people now continue to work after earning a basic income -- to make *more* income! unlike with welfare benefits or medicaid, people won't risk losing their basic income if they get a job. employment will just add to their income. most people want more stuff, most people want something to do with their time. it is unreasonable to think all of society of will refuse to work just because they are guaranteed basic income, because we already have plenty of evidence showing people continue to work after earning a basic income.
Or how about Millionaires that continue to work, able bodied retired people like to find part time jobs they can do. Even those that choose not to work would have time to maintain and repair their own homes and help their family and friends.
How do you handle inheritance in this model?
It doesn't have to come from taxation. It can be printed directly by the state.
This probably can't work under capitalism.
It would create even more contradictions and would undermine the entire system. Yay!
Alexisthebest ever
You must know the best.
Michael Molli
Yes, for I am perfect!
It's a powerful idea - it challenges so many myths and arrangements that support the current exploitation of people. UBI could kickstart a much-needed social and economic transformation. While it’s not going to be enough on its own, it will give us the time to be more democratically engaged in creating the world we want to live in.
+Elena Moses - Respectfully, what you wrote is absolute nonsense and a pipe dream.
+Trang Wuong Why do you think it is a pipe dream? Because it directly contradicts the fuedal system that was created in the Dark Ages. Wake up, many things have changed and are changing.
The reason this is a good idea is because you'd have enough to live on, but not enough to get the things you really want which would motivate you to do something more.
If you think I would support oppression in any shape or form, then you missunderstand me. It seems that you are not reading any of my replies cause you are not answering any of my questions.
Do this and get rid of the minimum wage. Then, the fewer people want to work, the higher wages will be because it will create a shortage of labor. This will encourage people to work because the jobs pay better. The more people want to work, the lower wages will be. The lower wages are, the more manufacturing jobs and such return to the west. Now you have more jobs, but lower wages, and therefore fewer people working. The prices increase to a new equilibrium where wages are higher and unemployment is lower.
The point being, the labor market becomes more flexible and attractive and it doesn't hurt workers because working is now optional anyway.
you could get rid of the minimum wage with it. wages will go up like you said, but the risk is cost of living will go up, unless the manufacturers just produce more and not raise costs to prevent inflation
I've been researching "abolish-working-for-a-living" for over 10 yrs.,and glad to see M.Mollis video . One thing that I can add is: Once someone creates something for 200 people they are done for the week (or month). Bakers love this idea. Once they have their equipment in place (ovens, ect.) they can bake 200 loaves of bread in one day!!!! They would have the rest of the week(month?) off. This does not apply to all crafts, obviously , many things take much more time.
Instead of levying income tax. Replace all taxation for a consumption tax (VAT). This reduces the bureaucracy even further because in a VAT system the supply chain checks their predecessor's tax obligations. Also the tax rate will indicate the efficiency of the economy, prevent external false (cheap labour) competition since goods and services incur their labour cost at their respective place of consumption.
I think a consumption tax would be better than an income tax in terms of financing basic income.
So 3 possible sources:
- redesigning the current benefit system
- fighting fiscal fraud (estimated around 1000 billion EUR)
- consumption tax (with proportionally higher rates for more luxury goods)
I think the procrastination to get things done will beat the boredom of doing nothing.
The video says something to the effect of "we punish people for not being able to get jobs that aren't there." I feel like this perfectly sums up the problem. Laborers are so abundant today and yet we are getting better at eliminating jobs or shipping them overseas. When you can't find work and have to live in your parent's basement....you are blamed!!! People seem to think that jobs are just infinite. You go to college and afterwards you go to the job tree and pull yourself down a nice ripe new job like its the 1950s. Today you go to the job tree and you have to knife fight 200 other people to the death for the one remaining job on the tree. The winner gets a shitty job with low pay thats driven down by the excess supply of labor and all the rest get to continue living in their parents basements.
5 - Pensions will continue to be paid out as usual. The basic income will grow into the existing scheme. Example: pension = 1200.- / basic income = 1000.- leads to the following result: pension = 200.- / basic income = 1000.- (pension is being replaced up to the max of the basic income. Everything above that sum comes on top of that. Another example: pension = 400.- / basic income = 1000.- leads to the result: pension = 0.- / basic income = 1000.-
If driverless tech actually becomes reality then these issues will be unavoidable
Two important points:
1) robotopia
2) our system of living is dependent on our input. the best proposed method so far is that we accomplish it ourselves. without our labor, the system could easily detach from our concerns, and then we would have to labor
There is one eye opener that I read once.
"We don't eat money."
The question is, do we have enough supply of food and housing? The answer is: oh yes, by far more than enough.
I am pretty sure the Pilgrims tried this but almost everyone died during the first winter so then they created the Magna Carta.
It´s definitely worth trying out. We have to find new solutions for society´s problems. Otherwise we get more of the same.
They have tested it in some indian villages, and it turned out to be very successful.They were not lazy at all from their basic income. On the contrary, it turned out to be fruitful, businesses were growing and peoples health improving.
But the elite wants to keep people enslaved and poor. So they will do anything they can to suppress this idea.
Basic income os not only for the poorest people, it is for every human being. Circumstances can change anytime, anywhere - basic income stays.
It come because soon will be jobs for no one.
+FMMAROTO Exactly. It's as much a question of ideology as automation is. A universal basic income is not an option. This comes from someone who is very opposed to socialism/communism.
Isn't this basically the idea behind the Venus project? :)
tis on the same line.
It is somewhat the same.
The main difference, to my knowlege, is that the Venus Project has no currency, no money at all. Everything will be voluntary (or mandatory, as seen by some people). Basic Income works within the current monetary system. Everyone will recieve the Basic Income and those with a paid job will earn extra money. With Basic Income, there is still an extra incentive to have a paid job, while in the Venus Project, there seems to be none, other than beïng happy to be productive.
My opinion is the Venus Project is Utopian (and therefore might not be realistic: might lead to some form of communism: work might become mandatory in stead of voluntary). This might work if we'd start from nothing, but seeing it as it is, starting from a monetary system like ours, Basic Income will have more chance of success...
Hanneke Zijlmans
You're wrong.
It is not utopian and you wouldn't be force to work, you would do what you enjoy to do.
You like being an architect instead of an office drone, then go for it.
It's the same as UBI but without money and more involvement of technology.
But yeah, UBI is a good start to prepare for the transition from a monetary economic to a resource based economy.
+Hanneke Zijlmans Could be that UBI is a smaller baby step towards Venus.
+cr4yv3n I am glad you brought up office drone.... in all my other posts i forgot to mention what a farce most office jobs are to be called work. Ever watch the Office show?
this guy obviously saw zeitgeist moving forward
People would work for free if they loved what they were doing, these days love does not count, if you love a certain industry, there also will be a competitor that hates that industry but has 7 years more experience than you, who is going to get hired?
Tax mega corporations and give a minimum wage to everyone - meaning we are actually taxing automation so robots will be working for us all.
Those mega corporations will then compete for the little money that they gave us through taxes.
The human being uses only 3% of its potential through life. Emancipating, first of ignorance, and then awakening higher human creativity of each member. This is the goal there is nothing more to pursue so far
Hi Søndag, I think what you're talking about are the symptoms of capitalism. Basic income is all about instilling trust in people and letting every single one of us decide what job is useful and what isn't. As of today, being forced to take anything just in order to survive creates crime and far more social problems. But the main question I would ask: can we afford it? No problem at all. There is not a single valid argument existing for why to make peoples lifes harder on own purpose. Why?
I don't know where you are from Michael. But here in USA Missouri, we do have a system kind of what you are talking about. In fact I live in income based housing. The only expense is the electric bill each month if I do not have any income. This gives me the opportunity as a single mom to work out if I want to go to school, or have a part time job. After living here for a year, my lease is up. And I have decided to get a full time job, and to rent a house. Which would have not been possible before if this system wasn't here.
There is this idea of removing all deductions on income in general and raise taxes on goods and services instead. Heard about this?
I'm a NEET and we must force people to work. Why? Because lacking a purpose in life leads to depression and suicide. I hope somebody would force me to do something with my life instead of dying soon by commiting suicide. With a UBI I would be in the same situation.
pursuing a purpose in life doesnt mean working in an environment that u dont like and will not work hard for..some of people have depression because of their work too. so i support the idea of basic income so human would not have to worry about their basic needs and pursue whatever they want to achieve in life.
if u want people to force you to work u should migrate to north korea. they will be happy to do so.
wont work, because I woke up in a new bugatti
Common reactions of those who support a compulsory worker society for material need and gain:
"Everybody must work, therefore, you should want to as well. Are you somehow better than others?"
" Only a leech or a parasite wouldn't want to work"
" Nobody likes their jobs. You just HAVE to do it."
The fact is, just like many are not suited to be a parent -or smart enough attend university- there are many who are unsuited for compulsory work. The only jobs available or accessible to me that pay well are factory jobs. I'm not a very good factory worker. It doesn't matter how motivated or focused I am at my job. I simply cannot perform the duties as required. My mind goes blank from mind-numbingly inane and repetitive work. Add to this the long working hours demanded by capitalists for their employees and it quickly becomes a depressing and humiliating endeavor. 10 hour work days are the norm in the manufacturing industry. I feel my time is better spent being creative or enjoying leisurely activities. Just because YOU accept the compulsory nature of work or may even enjoy it doesn't mean that my psychological make-up is equally suited to work endeavors.
neither does what we have today, as described in the video
I agree, money alone is not a suffice incentive to make people happy but it is essential for your survival therefore you are disciplined when it comes to your job. If you had the proposed basic income in place, you would be more laxed with regards to your obligation to get up for work every morning because after all, there are no consequences if you don't so how sure can we be you will fulfill your obligations? My point is that people need to be governed otherwise there will be no order.
Even if that was true, why do we punish 100% of all people if only a tiny fraction of them refuses to take part in supporting our society. There is not even a single reason existing for preventing the basic income to become reality.
I know and support the idea of basic income for a few years now. But two things worries me about it. If it is financed by people who do work via taxes they pay, so people who do not work will not pay taxes but still benefit from basic income thanks to the workers taxes. So unemployed people will still be seen as taking advantage of the situation and being lazy as it is today. Second worry : if people can ask for better salaries since they have the security of basic income, companies will move to poorer countries to pay lower salaries, so countries with basic income will lose all their companies and their jobs and the economy will collapse. Can someone explain how we can avoid that?
Hi, I believe you would not have to be worried and here are the reasons:
First of all we both are no experts in national economy but different others who are, have calculated the idea thorough and come to the conclusion that basic income is absolutely feasible within the western world. Secondly a reminder that basic income just covers the "basics" like food, shelter and public transport for example. Meaning this money comes in and goes out straight away in to the economy (taxes) - that's different to the super rich who invest their wealth in a way no one of us can make any use of it. If people want a higher living standard (and they usually want), they still have to use the job market the same way as they do today. With basic income there is no unemployment anymore - people structure their lifes the way it suit them - some work more, some less and others will change constantly, there is no reason for anyone to take notice about it. The most important thing for everyone of us is to be happy - contrary to what is happening today. By upholding an outdated system (that was good a few decades ago, but not today) we create suffering which is not necessary. We need to update our social system with something like a basic income for all citizens.
Companies already have outsourced big parts of the production lines to poorer countries. If the economy keeps on rationalizing then this is a process no government will be able stop. We just have to adapt - not by penalizing the unemployed but by implementing the idea which is described in the podcast above. There is a recent study done in the USA that predicts unemploment to skyrocket up to over 45% within the next one to two decades caused by technological advancement. Can you only imagine the problems were heading to, if we refuse to adapt to these sweeping circumstances?
Since I'm engaged in this subject for a few years now, I would like to highlight a number of advantages which don't seem to be apparent if you haven't researched a lot. Don't know if you heard about the project in Dauphin, Manitoba (Canada) in the 70's. The experiment had to end premature but the results gathered were already remarkable. It had a massice impact on people's wellbeing so they did make use the health system much less than before. The researcher Evelyn Forget reported extensive about the outcome. If we just imagine how much more people with no existential fear are willing to contribute to our society, you would be surprised. Our system as of today is based on competition only - this is not right to put people under so much pressure. Let us work together and not gainst each other.
Michael Molli Right on I agree 100% I would also like to add that every one pays taxes on everything they buy a luxury tax could also be implemented like they are proposing in the UK. Basic Income is supposed to replace our current archaic demeaning systems (welfare E.I. CPP etc..) The current system is top heavy with administrators whose sole job is to deny people what should be a basic right. As you have stated the strain on the heath care system decreased in Dauphin imagine what impact it would have on the legal system and incarceration rates. I say it's a win win, people would have more time with their families, the positive spin offs are endless including homelessness.
Do the research trickle down economics is a farce, time for trickle up economics. Everything I have read on this subject indicates Basic Income would be more affordable than what is currently being spent on our social programs, so where is this money really going ? I say cure the disease instead of treat the symptoms.
Micheal Molli don't take this the wrong way I am sur you already know this most logical people get it I am just trying to help with your reply to Guigui. keep spreading the idea.
Dan Neville
You seem to try to convince me about the utility of UBI which is nice but useless since I already am for years. I read about the successfull experiments around the world among other things.
My concern is how do we convince people that UBI is fair to give to everyone even to people who will not make money by their activity since they won't pay taxes and won't finance the UBI, since one's utility in the society is gauged by how much money he makes. And how do we convince companies to remain in the country where workers will ask even higher salaries, since they can live without the job, when they can find cheaper slaves else where?
Guigui It will determine the difference between a useless job and a worthwhile job a lot of service industry jobs are low paying and rely on the areas they are in. People will still work these jobs to top up their UBI incomes albeit fewer hours with less stress. I also think with more money floating around people will buy better quality domestic products, more people will get bumped up into the housing market could be the difference between renting vs owning. I don't think wages would change to drastically, just employment standards, shorter work weeks, but more employed. I would not be too upset if a few parasitic businesses close up shop, cheque cashing / payday loan places, fast food joints, and dollar stores come to mind.
Your opening statement already said you were in support of UBI , I was simply trying to engage in a meaningful conversation and share a few thoughts, your concerns and opinions are appreciated, and do warrant discussion.
Ive been following the works of "Technocracy Inc", "Buckminster Fuller", "Jacque Fresco" etc. for years.
Its nice to see others that are informed!
Fundamentally I agree with you. However there are certain things I take issue with.
I get your point and ofcourse I do not want people to suffer, what I am saying is there must be some sort of consequence for the people who do not want to contribute anything to society. If laziness is rewarded then this will create more laziness which frustrates and demotivates the hard workers in society. What you are proposing could work but you will need to recondition society and introduce some new incentives (other than money) that will motivate people to do something.
Hang on, we need to slow down a bit. The idea of this video here is about "basic income". With basic income every human being will be able to pay for the basics like accommodation, food, health and have a little pocket money - that's it. If they want more, they can always try to find a job.
This way we cover 100% of the citizen and not only those in employment. Do you actually understand what this is about?
There isn't a government on the planet I would trust to "manage" such a system.
I have to agree, unfortunately.
If the Elites had as much common sense as arrogance they would realize it is in their absolute best interest to appease the masses and raise the standards of living greatly. Having millions of angry and depressed hopeless people will just pave the road towards the Elites being taken down violently just as has happened in history time and time again. I dont get it, these bourgeois have more wealth than they will ever need in a life time or two, yet their greed is endless. Wisdom would be to have a happy nation with prosperity for all its citizens and then the ruling class would never face revolution, who would want to have a revolution when things are so good. I guess success and wealth is no cure for absurd arrogant stupidity.
Actually they have done a great job of keeping things pretty balanced in their favor.
They have near complete control of the government.
They give poor people just enough to keep them happy. While at the same time reducing the number of poor people by sending them to prison and helping them kill each other.
The middle class is stuck. They wont revolt because they have too much to lose. So they can be taken advantage of the most.
They start wars for profit, population control on poor and middle-class, and to steal resources.
Many jobs being created within our economy today are offering crap pay, little job security and little opportunities to progress.
Many jobs are also laborious, boring and don’t really offer job satisfaction.
However, if someone works in a part-time job, it would benefit that individual if they also received a Basic right to live income.
They’d have more money to spend in the shops and this would boost GDP and create more jobs within our UK economy.
I fully support this basic right to live income
Ok let me ask you this Having society that pays out money to just anybody working or not why have money at all? Why not just make it where everybody works not for money though. But for the greater good and for production sake. I mean basic physics dictates every action has a reaction so for example the people who make the baking tools which go to the Baker who makes the sweets which then goes back to the people making the baking tools who helped make it possible for the Baker to bake. kind of life in a society where you don't buy anything you can just simply go and pick it up because it was produced and the fact that your actions and your production made it possible for these items to be made what are you be a steelworker or be in the final assembly point is your job is just a small portion of other jobs which then create a product what you intern would use. I guess another example would be construction workers to build houses for everybody but also themselves get a house because they built it because people who gave the nails the wood and the other products it takes to build a house would be entitled to the houses too because they helped make them but make it where everybody works not like for money but just for the sake of production and in doing so There would be no need to buy food or luxury items because it's simply provided by the work of everybody because nobody is unemployed.
We never tried communism, we tried central planning capitalism.
What if you're stuck in a system where so many of the jobs are either taken by slave labor or technologically automated,but refuses to abandon money?What if,by the system's poor design,youre unable to financially care for yourself?
People arent educated in a way to physically care for themselves without money,so what alternative do you suggest?
Hi, please contact the author direcly.
I have added contact details in the info box.
money isn't real and therefore not scarce
basic income will be financed by abolishing administration and altering the tax system. The top 10% wealthy (who own two thirds of nation's wealth) will have to be taxed a little higher than before. The finance question is already been answered - we just need to get the message to the people. Information is everything.
I think the only thing I might offer is that it might be better to more often use "employment" rather than "work" when signifying employment as opposed to not paid work ...as there is a lot of work done outside the of the job- a lot of domestic work, errands,and many other things..which is work but not employment.
In a more advanced society we would probably not use interest rates at all.
if we all agree (well, enough ppl) about that there's not enough jobs for everyone anymore, we can find a way to finance it
I always wandered about this. whats the point of making absolutely everyone in society have to work in whatever jobs when the technology we have allows many to not have to, and still have society run smoothly? Is like we are stuck, and not moving on. How do you convince those in power to do this already though?
We need a land tax or LVT for short
Good point; first things first. It's a process.
The idea of a social minimum (the universal basic income) and variants (sufficiency criteria) are widespread in philosophical egalitarianism. You can read a great deal of similar thoughts from the many philosophers who have worked in the shadow of John Rawls. Thomas Nagel, Ronald Dworkin, G.A. Cohen, to name a few
Here is how we could fund it and every other thing the government is spending money on: A transaction taxation. A 1% taxation alone could pay for our current spending without going over budget. Of course I would consider it much higher. Initially I looked at 1.5% and 2%, but then I started to think about how we can quickly obtain a debt free America and reward even greater. A 5% transaction tax would bring in $22.25T. Now when you hear that amount you probably think that it is an obscene amount of money for the government to be getting funded from. However something to consider is in a matter of less than 2 years the federal debt could be completely wiped out if you consider funding UBI, state/local governments(to eliminate state and local taxes as well), along with current government spending. After two years it could be reduced to 2.5%.
Imagine if by 2030 we reached a union with Canada and Mexico. We include them in our UBI program if they follow along with the same tax plan and build their infrastructures up similar to the American standards. Eventually as a continent we could inspire the other continents to follow a similar regime and we could all as a global society come together and help all people that are less fortunate.
Of course if I go out and suggest these ideas I will get yelled at and called a communist. After all there are actually films out there placing propaganda on a world where all nations unite. I remember turning my television to a Christian channel a while back and there was actually a movie about the devil rising as a leader of a union of all the nations in the world. It's crazy how people will try to bring that much fear in us coming together, when evil throughout history has come from division.
It'll make people whose hobbies have no use to society whatsoever very happy. That's probably most people.
Exactly. Sadly, most people aren't that generous.
The more I learn about this, the more sense it makes. I would vote in favor of it, except I'm American :(
People who object this idea, usually know hardly anything about the concept.
I would have to agree. People don't think logically when they feel vindictive.
Drinking cans of lager down some alley way or in the pub with their mates at 10am sounds like the more realistic outcome than finding an activity that will benefit society.There was no real persuasion to this video. It appears to be built on a dream that everyone who doesn't work will eventually find a purpose that will be beneficial.
It's none of your, mine or anyone else' business what other people do with their lifes. The same way as it's not mine or anyone else' business what you do with your life.
That is very true but if you want to persuade people to support this idea then you have to convince them that this proposal is a fair one and people naturally don't want to feel as if they are being cheated. So maybe than could be your next project? It's a new idea to me and I'm clearly sceptical just like many more but my opinion can be changed but only with a persuasive argument. It feels more akin to communism and as history shows us,that only works in theory.
numchucks00
NAH THIS IS COMPLETELY DOWN TO THE PEOPLE GETTING THE FUCK OVER THEMSELVES AND THE WHOLE "I'VE EARNED THIS SO IT'S MINE, GO AND EARN YOURS" IDEA AND EVOLVE PAST IT. YOU DON'T HAVE TO EARN YOUR RIGHT TO EXIST THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED YOUR BIRTHRIGHT! IF PEOPLE WANT TO PLAY AND DO STUPID STUFF, IT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!
So you are not in favour of " I've earned this so it's mine". Instead you are in favour of " I don't want to work so give me what's yours" mentality?
The increasing automation in production, means fewer and fewer available jobs. How are these people without a job able to care for themselves? And with no money, how are they able to buy any products at all? People end up on welfare anyway, so a lot of the money is spent anyway. Maybe not all hobbies will benefit society, but I would think that we would have more people like Einstein and Nikola Tesla. Individuals who's interests benefited the entire world. Low wage jobs would be discarded by the workers, since their basic survival is secured. That would lead to higher wages, which would possibly lead to more spending, which would lead to a healthier economy. Automation is the key. There are simply not enough jobs left, and the management of caring for the jobless is simply not adventageous to society. It's way too expensive. So many people are involved in that process. I think a very large percentage would take jobs in their particular field of interest, which would ensure their willingness and will to do a very good effort. Besides saying that the majority of people would sit around drinking beer all the time, what would be the negative consequenses, you think? It's not like you should feel cheated if someone didn't want to work. You, yourself are not forces to work and will also receive the basic income. If you want to acquire a higher standard of living you are free to take a job anytime.
You're dam right about that.... People would a more meaningful task to do.
Would at least would want to work part time..
To me it makes sense .
it covers everything.
It makes everything so much easier for everyone.
By the time you pay for all the burocrats and private companies involved in the current system it probably wouldn't cost much more.
Any extra cash needed should get pulled from the 1% its going straight back up chain and back into their pockets anyway.
Think of how many people would be able to aford to study .
The more educated the nation the better. Casual and part time work would be meaningful.
its just a all round better system.
I don't think so. If there is a consensus, the changes can be done on a smooth way. First step: Universal Basic Income, so people the basic needs are affordable for everyone. As benefit: everyone is able to work for this change if he wants. I think this will liberate allot of creativity.
I'm not being fallacious or facetious, but this thesis is very close to Marx's vision of Communism, a good thing in my books.
There is a consequence - you feel bad about yourself. I don't believe in external incentives as money. Real incentives comes from within or not at all. If people only move and do things for money, the day they don't get money for doing something they just freeze. I have a well paid job and I must admit that on my spare time I'm lazier than ever. I'd be happier living elsewhere but I can't move since I need he money. I'm trapped and a slave like everyone else for nothing.
There is another stream of unearned revenue: the community created value of land.
I do find that we should not have to 'work for our permission to live' when many jobs are simply high luxury goods, i.e. someone may be neglected to poverty if they do not work to support the luxury goods consumed by modern society. work is no longer supporting a society.
7:37
"and provide job security"
You think job security is a good thing?
Here in France we have people proposing something like a basic income, and then when it's done (okay we're not there yet), people should democraticly and localy decide whether they want and need some free services or goods (water, food, shelter...) whose cost will be deducted from this sort of basic income, localy.
For instance if you have like 800€ as a basic income, with nothing else, localy you could decide that water is free but get only 750€ (for example). I'm not clear, am I ?
Yes. You got it.
Venus Project (RBE) is not unrealistic.. it is just a more advanced concept which will be implemented at some time in the future, after humans gain some more awareness,(or see themselves pressed from the depletion of the Earth's resources, or the economy system) and go through a transition of lower-level concepts just like this, which we see here, and which i am totally on with it too..