Agatha Christie has a quote I think of about this cruelty: “Youth is crude, youth is strong, youth is powerful-yes, and cruel! And one thing more-youth is vulnerable.”
@@sinisternorimaki No one has said it is psychology. And you should read her books around WWII era-she was conservative, like her country at the time, but she talks about Hitl*r and why folks fell for his nonsense. Those are the ones that should be taught in schools.
it's interesting that "when you grow up, your heart dies" and "growing up means growing a heart" can both be equally true. growing from childhood into adolescence and young adulthood involves growing a heart, but growing too far into adulthood and forgetting your childhood causes your heart to die. what a strange world, eh?
That's why I advised my niece to find the things that give her joy, not happiness, happiness is nice but fleeting, but real, undiluted joy, and never give that up. Because they can take everything from you and will, but joy will always see her through the worst things life can throw you.
@@TwisterTornado Yeah. I get people insulting me for it, trying to say I'm one of those Joker society meme guys, and I'm sitting here going "Funny name is funny" on my end. Part of my advice of finding the joy.
@@MrBern-ex3wq The revelation may perhaps be that childhood may not be so much 'innocent' as 'ignorant'. Childhood, up to a certain age, is essentially egotistic. We rate the world by our own reaction to it; it isn't until later that we learn empathy. It's a pity that some people haven't yet got to that stage...
Peter Pan "thinning out" the lost boys in the original was the first time I'd heard of his darker side, but in retrospect, that side of him had clear signs even in the Disney version. He clearly has some selfish tendencies, engages in rough play and sometimes bullying behavior, and those are minor compared to some of the other things he's done. For one, he cut off Captain Hook's hand and seemingly has no shred of remorse over it. But more importantly, he absolutely _revels_ in the idea of Hook being eaten by the crocodile, later a giant octopus in the sequel, even hammering the point by repeatedly referring to him as a codfish.
The interesting thing is that some of that stays with us even in adulthood. The notion that a bad guy deserves any and all of the bad things that happens to them is a quite frequent point of view.
Those guys who decided to do a horror movie about Peter Pan once it's copyright expired could have easily used this concept to create a story where it seems like it's the regular Peter Pan story, but later it's starts to get dark as we see what he does to the growing children. But noooo, those idiots where too lazy to investigate and decided to make another boring cliché murderer and just slap a Peter Pan outfit on him
@@pn2294 Especially when you are vehemently against criminal rights. Guys, in all serious business, you can't have it both ways. I know you're two different groups of people (mostly) but I don't want nuanced nothingness I need answers. And fast. All I know is that at this point I have to either pick a side and gain the hate of another, or I just have to give up entirely because mankind as a whole is still two minds about this issue. You can't complain Disney needs to go back to the good ol' days where you kill off villains in the most gruesome way possible... and then simultaneously suggest we need empathy for every living thing possible no matter how evil.
@@Manas-co8wl If you don't want nuance, you don't want room for intelligent thought. There is no "one-size-fits-all" solution (or at least no just solution) that doesn't require the consideration of individual circumstances in each case. The reason extremes are so popular is because they provide people with thought-stopping cliches that make it so that no energy has to be spent on thinking. Thought-stopping cliches are not the answer; they're another example of the childish cruelty that this video is about.
Knuckles: “That’s why on the first day, you have to beat up the biggest one in the yard.” Amy: “Knuckles, that’s prison.” Knuckles: “Only if you let it be.”
"Innocence involves an unseeing acceptance of things at face value, an ignorance of the area below the surface. In that humiliating moment I looked beyond myself and into the depths of another person. This was the beginning of compassion, and one cannot have both compassion and innocence." - Eugenia Collier, "Marigolds"
@@goblinofsharksnacks Kids can absolutely be kind, but ignorance and compassion are antithetical, and our idealized version of innocence is cornerstoned by ignorance.
@@goblinofsharksnacksI believe it's the difference between being nice because you don't know any better versus being nice because it's the right thing to do. And the kids who were nurtured like you said are the latter
@@sokokokoko true, but i dont think kids are all inherently cruel, some are blunt others are far worse, it varies a lot, but nurture starts from day 1 so who knows, though being a social species if we were inherently cruel we probably wouldn't have gotten far in wilder times
@@goblinofsharksnacks I'd say you're right that kids aren't inherently cruel. That's not what I meant by not having compassion. A lack of compassion doesn't have to equal cruelty. Think of if a child's being nice because that's what they believe in versus if they're being nice because they know being mean will get them in trouble. The latter situation is not compassion, it's just rule following for their own gain. Not cruel, but egocentric. Not being able to fully understand other people's feelings or thinking about others doesn't make them cruel (but I suppose the _actions_ that they take as a result of their lack of understanding can be cruel), just young, naive and ignorant. Which doesn't make them bad, they just need a wider worldview.
I always thought you always stay the same in Neverland, realising that Peter could just control his age is even more bizarre than what I thought it really was.
2:51 In an addendum or other story about Peter Pan, it fleshes out his origin story. He rushes out to fly about with unknown creatures (possibly fairies). But time in fairyland isn’t the same as time in the mundane world. What may have been a few hours to him were months in the normal magicless realm. While he was been gone, his mother was no doubt frantic with terror and grief. After months of fruitless searching, she gradually let go of her misery and gave birth to another child. However, she never forgot the loss of her first babe. Determined not to lose the second one, she made certain the windows remained firmly shut. Naturally, baby Peter knows nothing of this. He doesn’t realize the passage of time, the pain his mother felt or the rationale behind her decision to bar the windows against kidnapping intruders. All he knows is that she’s locked the window against him and gotten herself a new baby to replace him. (Think of Lotso Huggin’ Bear’s sense of betrayal when he finally returned to his owner only to find she’d gotten a new toy bear.) Believing that all adults are not to be trusted, Peter resolves never to grow up. So we get a baby boy firmly entrenched in childhood and steadfastly refusing to allow himself to become an evil, nasty adult (a decision likely reinforced by the murderous pirates constantly at war with him and his Lost Boys).
Yeah, I thought "Neverland" was the _Land_ where you _Never_ grew up... and that was the entire point. And the lost boys weren't "ready to grow up," so they stayed there, but Wendy went back, and had kids, etc. So Jane meets the _same,_ completely unaged lost boys. -Just because I bought the book, doesn't mean I ever have to rēad it.-
@@DellikkilleD One interpretation I've seen is that the pirates were former Lost Boys who started growing up but who somehow managed to escape Peter 'thinning them out'. They couldn't go back home and couldn't stay with the Lost Boys, so they became pirates with a vendetta against him.
@@DellikkilleDFew, if any, real pirates are or were nice people who only did naughty things because people were mean to them. You'd be a hostage within the first minute.
reminds of how many horror movies have absolutely horrifying children characters, what happens if a powerful being is just a baby instead of a grown person that might have plenty of concepts like regret, death and empathy, even if they choose to ignore them. in the words of marge simpson "kids can be so cruel"
Children are pure, in the sense that they also don't have any concept of others being important. For that, they are free, and also the most terrifying little things. That's why giving them something to take care of is "to give them a heart".
Kind of reminds me of that Twilight Zone episode “It’s a Good Life,” where this one kid has omnipotence, and all the adults in town have to walk on eggshells to avoid angering him, because he’s just a kid, and doesn’t understand the consequences of his actions
Reminds me of a short story I read as a part of the school curriculum that included quite graphic, gruesome depictions of young children killing sparrow hatchlings, in *huge* amounts, and it was the most mundane thing ever for them. Traumatized me forever as a kid... And taught me that children's lack of understanding of how important life and death truly are is really horrifying
The way I see it, Peter Pan was meant to be this morally grey character that represents the good and bad about childhood. There are many things about being a kid worth holding on to, but there's also a lot of growth and maturity that you miss out on if you don't grow up. We must embrace our inner child without letting it be the dominant force in our lives. I think Hollywood has definitely forgotten about that side of the story
@@Sayoriismyfavdoki899 Yeah, he reminds me of Pokey/Porkey from the Mother series in a way: a kid who never learns to grow up. If you've never played Earthbound or Mother 3 or had this understanding of it while playing, I recommend you try playing/replaying it. It truly is a franchise about growing up and moving on that tackles this kind of concept.
This honestly makes me respect Peter Pan a lot more as a story...Even as a kid, admittedly I didn't like the whole, "Childhood is so amazing...but we all have to go back to the real world to grow up eventually." aspect of it, and while part of that may be due to me still growing up, it lacked that depth I think I needed that it's not one or the other- or that even in like Wendy's case, children are expected to grow up during childhood in hard times of their families lives.
Another source of danger for the Lost Boys besides Peter thinning out the ranks as they grew up was when they were winning against the pirates, but Peter did not want the gane time to end yet. In those cases, he would simply switch sides and start attacking his own former teammates. He forgets them as soon as they die, too.
Kids are weird in their duality of innocence, on the one hand they will pick up on the smallest of differences then point them out without hesitation and mark the person as one of the others. Though on the other, I've seen children make displays of compassion towards people who adults would typically shun that have been some of the most heart warming things I have ever witnessed. I always loved how Lord of the flies explored this concept as well, however it was incredible to learn about the Tonga Castaway boys who suffered a similar predicament that instead came together in a fashion that's almost a tale as tall as the fiction itself.
I was just thinking that there was more overlap here with Lord of the Flies than I ever would have guessed. Like dang! And in the end the adults step in.
Empathy is a trained trait. It exists in a primal form, but needs to be shaped to fit the world the person lives in. Babies have empathy, but they lack the tools to use it effectively.
Empathy is a trait people are literally not capable of before about ten. It's why you can't diagnose a child as a sociopath. Their brains are not yet developed enough for actual emotional empathy. Cognitive empathy, perhaps. Actual, true, emotional empathy, though, heck no.
Peter being aged up in the Disney adaptation probably has its roots with other adaptations as well as the film’s production. Aside from the actor, Bobby Driscoll, just entering his adolescence when he was given the role, it was also commonplace for women actors to play the part of Peter Pan in the stageplays - inadvertently making the character seem older than he originally was. Interestingly, in an earlier draft of the film, Disney was originally going to adapt the “Peter Pan in Kensington Garden” backstory for a flashback sequence, but it ended up getting scrapped.
If that one scene in the Disney movie where Peter is creeping with half his face in shadow doesn’t tell you what you need to know, I don’t know what does.
@@sendmorerum8241 True. My guess is that they wanted him to look like a jolly elf, but I don’t think there’s any evidence or implications that he’s an elf in the books. It’s a very odd character design choice. 🤔
Even as a kid something always seemed off about peter to me. Something about him just basically kidnapping lost children and keeping them in neverland just seemed kinda creepy. Thanks for another great episode!
To be fair, in the book, Wendy, Michael, and John were the only confirmed case of him personally taking kids. The others were taken by Neverland, itself, which is implied to be sentient.
The way Peter Pan is described in his classic incarnations remind me of The Collector from the Owl House. He's basically a god, a demigod at the very least, able to manipulate space-time and transform any sort of matter into what he sees fit at the snap of his digits. However...he's still a child. He's like a seven year old whose games of make believe never seem to have any end. He's not malicious, but moreso playfully oblivious, unaware of the damage he's capable of doing.
As a child I HATED other children so badly because in my autistic brain they were cruel little monsters who kept bullying me. I couldn't even be mean towards them because I was 'wait, when somebody insults me on my appearace I feel bad, I would be the bad person if I did the same!' that was such a frustrating phase in my life 0.o I feel the empathy I got was double theirs and that is still biting me in the rear decades later, even when crappy adults scream at my face without trying to listen to what I have to say and I'm too empathetic to scream back at them. Yay.
That is why adults and elders are there to guide the children and to ensure that the children when they grow up to be more...well responsible, righteous, flexible, and caring.
I've understood the cruelty of Peter Pan for some time. We read the original book to the kids when they were young, because, really, it's an amazingly crafted story. There is a very thin line between reality and magic, as you might expect from the mind of a child. Mothers are magical beings in their own right, and this passage from the first chapter has been one of the many that has stuck with me: It is the nightly custom of every good mother after her children are asleep to rummage in their minds and put things straight for next morning, repacking into their proper places the many articles that have wandered during the day. If you could keep awake (but of course you can't) you would see your own mother doing this, and you would find it very interesting to watch her. It is quite like tidying up drawers. You would see her on her knees, I expect, lingering humorously over some of your contents, wondering where on earth you had picked this thing up, making discoveries sweet and not so sweet, pressing this to her cheek as if it were as nice as a kitten, and hurriedly stowing that out of sight. When you wake in the morning, the naughtiness and evil passions with which you went to bed have been folded up small and placed at the bottom of your mind and on the top, beautifully aired, are spread out your prettier thoughts, ready for you to put on.
This analysis of children being naturally heartless reminded me of an observation and plot point made in The Girl Who Circumnavigated Fairyland in a Ship of Her Own Making by Catherynne M. Valente. The main character September is described as "Somewhat Grown" and "Somewhat Heartless," and on her journey, she stands at a crossroads with signs that point to different destinations including "To Lose Your Mind" and "To Break Your Heart." Since she is somewhat heartless, she chooses the second path, and goes on a journey that forces her to mature in ways that are kind of traumatic for a child in Fairyland. But unlike Peter who only becomes a better child, she becomes a better child who will grow into a better adult.
@MeemahSN because I was curious? I honestly do not get the reaction of some people online. There was zero disdain in my question. I never suggested that it being YA novel or not would "change the meaning." Seriously, WTF? It seems you are the one who thinks YA novels are somehow less than other older aged novels if you read into my question that way. Well, I don't think YA novels are less than. I grew up with R.L. Stein, who is a YA novel writer and he's great and I STILL read his books.
In the webtoon forever after, when the protagonist can't fly with fairy dust it is revealed that only the joyous, innocent and heartless can fly, but since she has gone through character development and learn to care for others, she has grown up and at the end decides that flying isn't worth loosing what she has learned from growing up
Another small point to be observed is that, when on a later visit, Wendy asks after Tinkerbell, Peter is all "Who?" Turns out that, unlike Peter, fairies *don't* live forever. ='[.]'=
A child's innocence is only limited into the ways they experience reality. And the more the child grows up, the more the innocence will lessen as well, turning it into knowledge.
I remember Neil Gaimen wrote a book called Snow, Glass, Apples which was a dark villainous version of snow white, I always wanted them to create a version of Peter Pan like that in the movies, show the dark cruel a moral side of children when theirs no adult in the picture, would be an interesting version.
Actually it does exist, it's called Lost Boy: The True Story of Captain Hook. And this tells the story of the very first lost boy and how he became to be who he was.
There's a lot going on w/ the writer's side of this story. His brother died in an accident, and his mother was inconsolable, to the point of neglect. He would only receive attention when pretending to be his dead brother.
I think another consideration to take on Barry's Pan is that Peter and Wendy are a parallel to Adam and Eve. Wendy's "kiss," the thymbol, is her apple. She offers Peter the gift of empathy, the humanity which comes with knowing-- and rather than this being original sin, I think Barry sees it as a holistic aspect humanity. To accept Wendy's kiss, Peter has to lose his innocence. And to lose his innocence, he would lose Neverland, his Eden. By ultimately rejecting this, Peter retains Eden but never gains full humanity. Though he does learn enough to be able to at least become partially human. To grow up a little bit, for Wendy in the end.
The meaning of the story is to, essentialy, grow out of your *childish selfishness & cruelty,* but without losing your *heart & wonder* Anything less and you're not really a complete person. Something I think has only gotten more relevant as time has progressed. Heck, its what makes the dichotomy of Peter Pan and Captain Hook fit so well thematically. Peter is brave, isn't genuinely malicious and wants everyone to have fun; but he's also petty, selfish, dismissive of his outright cruel acts and is downright self-absorbed. Whereas Hook, despite being an adult, is all of that specifically *because* he threw away his heart a *long* time ago. He is NOT ignorant of the cruelty of his actions like Peter, yet he still partakes in it almost gleefully. Its what makes *Wendy* such an important character. She is essentially the ideal outcome, a perfect middle ground. She still has her wonder and empathy even by the end, but is aware that, at some point, you have to grow up. Take responsobility for your own actions and that of those around you. You can't stay innocent and ignorant forever. She sees Peter less as the hero later depictions would portray him as and more as a cautionary tale of what she *thought* she wanted at the beginning of the story.
One of the reasons why I prefer J.M. Berry's original story of Peter Pan, Fox's Peter Pan and the Pirates, and Gerald Brom's interpretation, 'The Child Thief', is because they stay true to the aspect of Peter Pan that the Disney version avoids, childhood cruelty, how Peter forgets everything, especially the pirates that he kills, and how the battles between Peter, the Lost Boys and the Pirates is well bloody. That and the Disney version makes Captain Hook a joke, whereas the book paints him as a complicated threat. Obsessed with vengeance on Peter Pan but also hints of envy towards Smee as how the children gravitate to him, and Hook's obsession with being a gentleman and good form.
I also, watched Peter Pan and the Pirates and thought it was one of the best adaptations of the original story, but many of my friends hated it since they couldn't wrap their heads around how different it was to Disney.
I'm so happy to see a video essay on the heartlessness of children, especially because it isn't done in a malicious way. It's just truth: empathy is not inherent. It is learned. And the lack of empathy is a major issue when left unattended. I have never intrinsically understood the view of childhood as innocent and whimsical because my childhood was anything but. I and my siblings were cruel. We didn't have responsible adults who could teach us to be empathetic, so life was constant torture and lashing out in return. When I got older, I despised myself and my behavior so much that I came to equally despise childhood and any attempt to label it innocent and pure. It wasn't until I became an adult and sought therapy that I realized my awful behavior and years spent beating myself down to force teach myself empathy as best I could was due to a failing on my parents' part. A child cannot learn that which they have never been taught, at least until they reach a level of brain development where they can undertake that learning process alone (for me, this dtsrted at 12 and slowly got better from there). I still can't ascribe innocence to children. But lack of understanding, lack of development, and therefore lack of realizing consequences have taken their place. Seeing them as empty vessels and sponges that can't know better without a guiding hand has helped replace the illogical hatred. All this to say that this video makes me feel seen. It's so refreshing. So many pieces of literature and people just ignore the heartlessness of childhood. To everyone's detriment, I think.
But then there is an opposite named hyperempathy, where being so selfless and feeling empathy too intensely can go too far. People with hyper empathy struggle to have healthy relationships in turn can get mentally kidnapped by dangerous strangers and other kinds of sociopaths.
The original Peter Pan actually reminds me a lot of the character Anthony Fremont from the Twilight Zone episode “it’s a good life”, in the sense that they are both young boys who are given these magical abilities, but (due do to them lacking emotional intelligence and empathy for others) only use them to entertain themselves while treating the people trapped in their own pocket dimensions as nothing more than toys whom they often kills off or punish when said people displease them.
The funny thing is that in the original story, the character tries to help others by granting them wishes when they feel dissatisfied; but he never thinks on the consequences and end up hurting them instead of helping (that's why everyone force themselves to have happy thoughts).
That episode is based on a short story of the same name. Very good short story. But also Anthony Fremont is infinitely worse. I’d rather be stuck dealing with Peter Pan.
Proceeds to miss the point of the video. He isn’t a bad guy. How can you judge someones morality or label them good or bad when they’re incapable of knowing right from wrong, or even learning what it means?
Honestly, this is the kind of video I have needed for years. Childish cruelty is so often ignored, treated as nonexistent or something that cannot actually do harm. Often in tandem goes a lack of acknowledgement that empathy needs to be cultivated, the little innate empathy of all humans isn't enough to override someone's urge to disregard others for the sake of their own enjoyment - which is often a motive of bullies that are NOT motivated by a cruel home life or insecurity, but instead pure joy in the distress of others. I needed this. Really didn't expect such catharsis on a random Wednesday, but it's so appreciated. I love your analyses of literature and media!
"someone's urge to disregard others for the sake of their own enjoyment." It's just a prank bro. - You're too sensitive. - I was just joking. Basically situations like that are an assessment that ones own personal feelings matter more than others. Disregarding personal impact, especially in lieu of harmful intent is a common thing people do, not just kids, but kids are notorious for it because they don't get it. I've talked to and heard of a lot of bullies, people who later in life were able to actually confront them and straight up ask what was going on. In many of the cases of someone not having a terrible home life and lashing out for any sense of control or reflecting patterns of their abuser, it was often that they didn't understand that the victim wasn't in on or okay with the joke. They think they're having a bit of harmless (relatively) fun and don't understand the other person is an equal to them. This creates a sort of messing with your pet dynamic. They think they're teasing something that isn't that harmed by being teased because they don't see them as a fellow equal human and also don't think that their teasing is causing harm. Think of it like fake throwing the ball for a dog. Is it particularly nice to do? Not really, but we know it's pretty dang harmless. The dog isn't emotionally distressed/frustrated so long as it isn't done for too long, in fact, it can be fun as a prank so long as it's rectified. I think a lot of bullies actually see things this way, especially as kids because they don't get it. Sometimes in adulthood they look back and go. "but it wasn't a dog and it was a lot more mean than fake throwing a ball." I think it's also influenced by hierarchy, which goes into a persons psychology if later in life they still find it funny to have done x or y to their victims (while still thinking either due to their intent to just have fun or finding the action to be harmless, regardless of how the victim felt/feels.) Still messed up, still not okay, but it also means it's harder to pin down to get someone to see that what they're doing isn't cool. People also get super defensive if you point out their actions have consequence even if their intent is benign. I honestly think it's something we should have a course on in schools because you see this same issue deep seated into adulthood with many many many people.
The biggest take-away I had from this video is the scene about the kid with the stomach ache and the two kids around them dealing with it differently. That's quite a notable ponderance. You see examples of this in different forms everywhere in adulthood too. You see this as disconnected from you as politicians on tv attacking the weak of the other side. Though, it often happens as close as co-workers.
Peter Pan was one of my favorite books as a child. I listened to it over and over, many nights in my bed. Looking back, I can see how I never thought the kids were right to leave their loving family. The narrator himself condemns them as selfish. To me, the story represented the desire for adventure and a place where I was in control, and how children struggle with this duality of wanting independence as well as their parents to shield them. I never thought about Peter being the only one to change, that’s super interesting.
I have a six year old daughter, a six month old son and a degree in human development. I don’t think cruelty is inherent but socialized. My daughter has an enormous natural capacity for empathy and is devastated when she accidentally causes harm. I also raise my kids giving them as much agency as possible within the boundaries of acting safe and appropriate. In turn of the century England, the main child rearing philosophy was behaviorism. Emotional neglect was the norm, and in fact seen as ideal. Children are seen, not heard. I think much of the cruelty of Peter Pan can be attributed not to the natural cruelty of children, but the way children mirror the treatment they are used to, and they all long for more power and agency than they have. And in the time and place where Peter Pan was written, a child would mirror the cruelty around them
Children can also be made into monsters by endless indulgence. Perhaps your children are sensitive because it was in your own temperament as well. Those sort of emotive qualities do tend to have a strong underlying biological drive element. But so do darker human qualities. Look at the case of Danila Kozlovsky, among many others. Caligula & Tiberious come also to mind. In some families empathy & sympathy are inclined qualities. In others cruelty is a family legacy. Perhaps be more mindful of the bias of subconsciously believing that others share our own emotive qualities. People are built all different ways, where the line between nature & nurture vanish into statistical trivia.
@@brianhirt5027 absolutely, epigenetics plays a role. My fear from this video is that people who don’t have kids or understand development at all will just have more fuel to be anti-child, which I think is based in unhealed trauma and is a real problem. I’m talking people who still think children shouldn’t be allowed to act like children in public. I think Peter Pan was a way for both JM Barrie and Walt Disney to cope with their experience of being a child, consciously or not. I believe each generation will reinterpret the myth of Peter Pan to suit the culture and treatment of children in the time and place they live in
@@hannahwankier7459 Eh, in my experience people come to a kneejerk answer & spend the rest of their lives retcon style justifying it. People are anti-kids (I think) for numerous motivations. Cost & lack of social support is a factor. Bigger one is all the doomers constantly saturating every possible angle of the mediasphere in every flavor of custom-cotoure artesian crafted despair imaginable. Youths who don't think they have a future to look forward to themselves don't tend to bring babies into it, go fig. Until we can displace the hyper-saturated landscape of profiteering doomerism our kids will be too scared to have kids themselves.
You don't need to be a parent or child psychology degree to know children. We all spent 16 years growing up around them, and I think that teaches you more of human nature than three years of lectures. Anyone who has been bullied can tell you how cruel and callous children are. Many are nasty, nasty pieces of work that get a free pass because they're seen as innocent and incapable of doing no wrong. And don't trot out the old line that all bullies are poor individuals emulating their abusers, more deserving of sympathy than even their victims. No, some are just nasty, cruel psychopaths.
@@alongshoot5844 I used to be one of those "nasty, cruel psychopaths" you're describing, I can assure you a significant amount of us turned out like that specifically because of the way we were treated and had been reinforced the older we got, a good chunk of it is definitely emotional neglect and emulation of adult figures but it takes a great deal of work to try and correct these anti-social behaviours to not turn out like our genetic donors and parental figures They don't deserve more sympathy than the kids they tormented, but that doesn't mean they deserve no sympathy to begin with. Your childhood experience is only one perspective, child psychology is way more complex than you're giving credit
There’s a really great book called Lost Boy by Christina Henry, which explores Peter as a villain through the eyes of Captain Hook, who in this book was the first Lost Boy that “betrayed” Peter by growing up and rejecting the carefree callousness of youth. The two have a very interesting and heartbreaking dynamic, Hook loves and loathes Peter in equal measure since Peter was both his hero and captor, and Hook is in a way a traumatized boy trapped in the body of an adult. I hope it gets a movie adaptation someday.
I literally wrote my thesis on the original book/play, so I guarantee this will NOT ruin my childhood! ❤😂 EDIT: Thank you thank you THANK YOU for making this video! As a person who grew up with the original book, I am sick and tired of people who keep calling Peter a sociopath and disregarding everything beautiful and heartrending about this story! I actually cried several times while writing my thesis, because both Peter and Captain Hook are so completely and utterly alone. I feel understood! ❤
I feel the movie Hook kind of understands this, or at least flips the dynamics on its head. Peter left Never-Never-Land, he grew up, matured, became a father, but he also forgot what it was like to be a kid, he distanced himself from his children, his family, he became *too* grown up. Hook by contrast is petty and childish, constantly looking to settle old scores and reap petty vengeance, kidnapping Peter's kids and trying to manipulate them to hate him, forcing his crew to go along with whatever he wants even if they don't want to play pirates anymore. Peter also learns to hold onto his inner child and never forget what it was like to be a kid, and it helps him reconnect with his own kids, while Hook's perpetual childishness ends up killing him in the end.
Fun fact: Peter actually has his memory erased very frequently. To the point he forgets the names and the people around him. When Wendy and her brothers were flying for a month, Peter would go down and talk to some mermaids and come back up and ask who they were. Idk where it says Wendy helps him with spring cleaning. But he comes back to visit her for many summers after she came back home until he didn't. Wendy herself thought he may have forgotten her, even when she asks where tinker bell is, he doesn't know. (It's implied she died) Because growing up, is learning! And even if Peter stays a child forever he will mature in a way by living life. And his whole being is against growing up in all senses of the word. So he doesn't at all.
The ending where Peter looks on at “the one joy from which he must forever be bared” always struck me as him choosing to reject being adopted and embrace the other joys that ending mentions, because he recognizes that, even if he tried, that “one joy” was never in the cards for him regardless.
I feel that what bared him from that joy was the guilt he felt towards Wendy's mother for what he almost did it. Too complicated of an emotion for a kid like him.
Some kids can be very mean. I was the exact definition of the term "emotionally immature" as a kid. I was scary and that's why I don't have nostalgia. I feel horrible all the time for the horrible things I did as a little girl.
It's so funny how former bullies like yourself make it all about you and how you feel about what you have done. Your victims feel worse than horrible. You probably ruined them and damaged their self esteem. It's all about you and how you feel like a typical narcissist.
@@AutumnAprodithe bro that person was a kid at that time. Kid grow, people grow. Mistake were make and we live with the memory that had already happened. What matters here is they changed and simply share their experience here I understand how you could see it like that, but I suppose everyone deal thing differently. I too wouldn't forgive the one whose bully me for a good chunk of my childhood. But I never bother to remember them, name or even face, I just know it happened and I have to deal with a worse mental health as the consequences from it. But in general, I don't really give two shit about them. Just hope they grow up now and learn to not do that shit to everyone else like they do to me It obviously the action of one do have consequences. But there always a future, time always past and we never really the same person we are year ago
@@liu1806 It's strange that you have more empathy for a self pitying former bully than the bad things they did to others. What about the victims they made? I dont see former bullies pay their therapy or do anything to compensate for what they have done. I hope she never gets forgiven.
@@AutumnAprodithe Damn Autumn, you sound like you were just like her but now are living in the river nile. I don't know if you have noticed but pretty much everyone can tell the story of how they were bullied but very few are able to become aware and go so far as to admit to the fact that they bullied too. We all don't mature at the same rate and the put upon six year old can become a total terror during puberty, I think you are slathering it on pretty thick to think that a nine year old should be responsible for a grown person's therapy if they don't have parents that can help them learn to navigate the ever changing social rules of childhood. The parents should pay for their child's therapy or the adult should seek the help they feel ready to accept. I, for one, would never trust a therapist paid for by the person who tormented me, are you nuts....
@@rosevan7845 Pot calls the kettle black. It's disgusting that you people rather feel sorry for bullies and defend them but blame their targets saying that they allow it. You are no better than bullies who actively destroy lives because rather feel sorry for them and give an ounce back of what they have done to others.
This is such a new interpretation from the lense I always viewed Peter Pan. I had seen the Disney movie and the play, but I had heard about the strange man who wrote it and I always tgought that Peter was a child who had died, either crib death or something else slightly later, and never never land was a tall tale that adults would tell similar to heaven, except this was a heavem tailored to the mind if a mischievous child, and like "the matrix", this heaven couldn't fully satisfy because it lacked the love and guidance of parents. To me, Peter is the tale ofa spirit who doesn't understand his true nature. He doesn't realize that his mother frieved his loss but then had a new child in his place. I also assumed that the lost boys were boys who died.
You are the only correct one. JM Barrie's literary focus was the afterlife. Peter Pan was the ghost of a dead child. You can find whimsical references to dying children all over the books, like how children must be prevented from "flying away." Not realizing its all about death means the channel didn't understand it at all.
It's funny, I was listening to Storytime by Nightwish and they mention peter pan and it had me thinking about how his power comes from imagination and- literally this video comes out. Life is funny sometimes
"I am the voice of Never-Never-Land, the innocence, the dreams of every man. I am the empty crib of Peter Pan, a silent kite against the blue, blue sky, every chimney, every moonlit sight. I am the story that will read you real, every memory that you hold dear." It's rare I find a fellow Nightwish fan, much less someone who's heard of them.
I always remember the Tinkerbell quote from the Peter Pan book, it helped me alot as an exhausted and stressed new mum in an abusive marriage. Sounds silly I know but when Barry writes in the book that (paraphrased) "Tinkerbell isn't all good or all bad but so small she can only hold one emotion at a time and that emotion consumes her". At the time I read this, when I was in school, I barely thought anything about it. But when I had a newborn and two yr old, was sleep deprived and scared, while trying to keep my abusive now-ex husband calm and away from kids when he wasn't. This one day he'd gone to work after a horrid morning where I'd dared ask him to seek therapy, meaning I could finally catch my breath, just as my toddler suddenly started "tantruming" and I was so frustrated with her (for no good reason, she wasn't being naughty, I was stressed and tired and still messed up in the head by now-ex, I dont even think it was a real tantrum, more her letting her frustrations out now dad wasn't home and she was safe to be normal kid with me). I remember I was frustrated at her, I think I was about to snap at her to hush up or something, when the Tinkerbell quote suddenly came back to me and it gave me a different perspective on what she was probably struggling with at the time. I mean, from her perspective, I'd suddenly rushed her and baby brother into the bedroom mid breakfast - to keep them safe but she wouldn't have been able to comprehend that at 2yrs old, all she knew was daddy was shouting at mummy and mummy had blocked the door so she couldn't come to me (cos normally when he shouted she'd cling to me, so thats probably what she wanted to do at the time and from her perspective I wasn't letting her seek that comfort from me). What kid of any age wouldn't need a big cry and good old stomp about after a morning like that. I mean there's me, an adult capable of managing multiple emotions at one time and I was still massively overwhelmed by fear and stress, imagine how much more terrifying that is to a barely toddler who doesn't have those essential emotional skills that most adults barely have. Those emotions would completely consume a small child, like Tinkerbell. The quote reminded me that she wasn't tantruming she was just feeling what she felt and expressing it the only way she knew how too at that age. Perfectly normal behaviour in a very abnormal home environment. Everytime, after than, that my ex started saying she was trying to manipulate me with her tantrums while he was at work (he had cams in the home to make sure we were obeying the rules), I started quoting the Tinkerbell quote at him, and saying I know how to care for our kids. Like my confidence really started to grow, cos I realised I was right to think that it's him that's the problem not us, up until then I knew the home environment wasn't good for our kids but I was still convinced that I was the problem, I somehow wasn't being a good enough wife or mother. That day, when I remembered the quote and really saw things from my daughters perspective, it all clicked in my head that it wasn't my fault that ex behaved the way he did (my childhood was one full of fear and pain so I barely noticed my ex's behaviour towards me until I saw it from my kids perspective, I knew to keep my kids safe and move them to a different room when ex got angry but didn't understand why it wasn't my fault my ex was the way he was - it's really hard to understand the mental difficulties when raised in an abusive home to recognise a marriage as abusive unless you've experienced it yourself). I already knew we'd have to leave him at that point, I realised that when I was pregnant with our second, cos it wasn't a safe home for ours kids, I was just searching for a safe out (which didnt happen overnight unfortunately, took years, cos with the constant surveillance and having no friends left thanks to him, plus the fact anytime police or social were called he'd just talk to them for a few minutes, never let any of them talk to me or kids, and suddenly no legal ramifications or follow ups or anything - literally he did so many obvious crimes, from punishing me by driving dangerously when our babes were in the car, to literally kidnapping his older kids from his first wife multiple times (she even tried taking him to court but judge sided with him, said she was being too emotional ffs and he got more contact with them, so I was terrified of I took him to court he'd get the kids, cos I also have disabilities), he acted as if he was untouchable cos he seemed untouchable, so I didn't see we had a safe way too leave at that time, didn't think police or social would help us, and I was by n large right but we did eventually find a way out and my kids are safe and thriving now). He was "deeply" religious (using airquotes cos it was more performative than actual faith, cos it only applied to what rules suited his goals and he'd change them almost weekly) and hated me using a western fantasy kids book as a quote to counter his "I'm the head of the household and get the final say on matters of discipline" abuse excuse, but it also meant most of his anger was directed at me rather than our kids so I felt more comfortable with that while trying to find a safe exit. Funny what one quote can trigger in ones mind and snowball into.
The interesting thing about your headcanon is that Barrie drew inspiration for Peter from the death of his brother (thouggh David died at the age of 14, not an infant.)
From what I heard about Barrie's backstory, his older brother died at a very young age and was his mother's golden child. The loss marred her to the point where she flat out neglected James by ruminating nonstop. These early onset mommy issues left their developmental mark on James both emotionally and physically (he had a very late puberty).
Yes, the analysis I've heard was the Barrie's dead older brother, whom his mother forced him to sometimes pretend to be and constantly speak about, was the prototype Peter Pan. The only child who never grows up is a dead one. Barrie's non-child work is very focused on spirituality and death.
Excellent observation of the character of both Peter Pan and of children. The cruel nature of childhood innocence is only tamed by the experiencing of regret for past harms against oneself or another by oneself or another. Or, through external guidance. Being a parent, observing children, and having been a child I can fully attest to the savage nature of innocence. I have been shocked and savaged by the young and also done so myself. While a young mind can be savage without thought, kindness is a learned trait that takes more or less self discipline depending on the encounter. People fixating on the wish to be as Peter Pan shows a disturbing desire to be free from accountability for one's own actions and behave in an antisocial manner without consequences. This is much like the narcissist that constantly confides that they wish they could be a real vampire so they could literally kill people to gain some energy as a practice plan to live forever. These immoral people are completely free from feeling guilt for destroying people for a small gain. And if you observe these narcissistic wannabe vampires, you will see they are doing their best in life to drain energy and resources while making miserable the people in their lives given the opportunity.
i'm actually writing a story about a man who turns out to just be a very long-lived child. i intend on including a variety of elements in his character including childish cruelty, insatiable curiosity, and a knowitall attitude with a dash of auto-deception to cap it all off. his story concludes after he attempts to save all of life from "the big freeze" (if you're into astronomy, you may recognize this as the heat death of the universe) only for it to be revealed after his death that he was simply wrong about the end of all life and his quest fails at the hands of the "hero" (story's antagonist). it's meant to be a parody of crisis culture and terror propaganda.
Part of what makes Barrie’s story so mesmerizing, I think, is the ambiguity of it. This is particularly apparent in what he considers the true beginning of maturity: the first time a child is treated unfairly. He stresses that this is the factor that makes Peter different from the other children, who are fully human and not just an isolated facet of humanity: “No one ever gets over the first unfairness; no one except Peter. He often met it, but he always forgot it. I suppose that was the real difference between him and all the rest” (Peter Pan and Wendy). It’s as if Peter keeps encountering the cruelty of the world, but because it never internalizes, he’s never able to comprehend his OWN cruelty. Maybe that’s the ambiguity at the “heart” of growing up in Barrie’s world- if we want to do our best to be good and empathetic people in a beautiful and broken world, we have sacrifice the beauty of a perspective untouched by that brokenness- because both are already inside us.
One thing is that when Wendy mentions her parents (at least in the play) is to strengthen her story - not actually because she feels bad for leaving her parents. "WENDY (melting over the beauty of her present performance, but without any real qualms). Now I want you to consider the feelings of the unhappy parents with all their children flown away. Think, oh think, of the empty beds. (The heartless ones think of them with glee.)"
10:25 Reminds me of the many posts online about a man only learning empathy once they have a girlfriend or children. The current patriarchy encourages boys to remain childlike in regards to carelessness, empathy, sympathy. This is deemed "manly". But all grown up, I feel that only those fully acquainted with feeling empathy and responsibility are "true men". J.M. Barrie's Peter Pan has been my favorite story always. There's so much to ponder in so little pages. ❤
Reminds me of a story in which a child is a very powerful reality bender. Wherever the child wanders, the world is changed. The ground becomes a soft quilt, plants turn to candy and sweets, stones turn into toys, rivers and lakes become milk, and the animals become docile pets, but people stay the same... mostly. The danger of this child is that, while he is not aware of his powers, like other children, he _hates_ to not get his way. And so if you chance to upset him, you will simply cease to exist, or lose all sense of will not tied to pleasing him, or be transformed into a plaything, or simply suffer a painful and agonizing death, whatever his whim is at the moment.
Thank you! Sometimes I wonder if the ability to grow up is part of what makes us human. Or maybe it is just part of what makes something more than an animal (if other beings exist with the ability). When I say grow up I mean question our impulses. Learn to put our more primal feelings aside and critically think of other ways to solve a situation. Though typing that out I wonder if some animals do have that ability. When one of my dogs died, the other cuddled into and comforted me. She could have been doing it to sooth herself, but I think she understood I was sad and might have needed that.
This reminds me of the Collector from the owl house, a child god, with pretty much unlimited power, and no idea of morals, pain or mortality. It's very interesting Great video!❤
Peter Pan is one of my favourite stories, ever. This video is extremely well made, with a few caveats: I believe it’s really hard to properly gauge what JMB meant when writing Peter Pan about talking about his inspiration - the Llewelyn Davies family. When considering the part they took in his life, it’s clear to me that he’s written about them and their adventures. From the fact that the names for both Captain Hook and Peter Pan originate from their playing together, to the fact that he ended up adopting them. I’d write at a greater length, but to me Peter Pan isn’t just a story about childhood. It’s JMB’s experience as Peter Pan, forced to grow up
I had never thought of it this way. We hear so much about protecting the innocence of children from emotionally stunted adults, and it always made no sense to me but now it makes perfect sense. They want to stop their children from outgrowing them.
Children make brave gestures inspired by bizarre misunderstandings, and then quite a lot of adults think they're kinder for it. Maybe the ends justify the means, but it's impossible to ignore that they're in those spots because they don't understand what they're actually doing. Push everyone you see, and maybe you might find you've pushed someone out of the way of a high speed collision. Later on we learn why we need to fear, for our own sakes as well as others, but sometimes bizarre circumstances require a bizarre mind. An adult might rationalize a way out of being involved, but a kid is going to take their best guess as gospel and do what might have made sense in the moment. Many good and bad things stem from this...
The impression I formed reading the book was that Peter was a normal child living a normal life, and all the other characters existed within his dream. When he randomly disappeared, he was awake, and the dream went on without him.
Oh, my dear story bot. Not all of us humans are born without hearts. Not all of us want to go back to childhood. Not all children are blood thirsty sociopaths. Playing pretend is merely playing pretend. There is no blood lust, there is no intent. This isn't Sparta. When some little boys would rip the legs off of baby toads, I was the little boy who was horrified. When I found a visiting little boy annoying and I wanted him to leave me alone, I trapped him in my toy box, also me. I did not harm for enjoyment. Any harm I inflicted was out of anger, not malicious mischief. I was the quiet kid who wanted to help. I was the quiet kid who liked being by himself. If that duality makes any sense at all.😄 Would never want to be a child again. The powerlessness. The tyranny of abusive and neglectful adults. The lies and the gaslighting. Nothing I did was ever good enough. Finally getting my fist bicycle at 12, only to be made to ride in a neat circle, going no where. This "freedom of childhood ", what is that? Adulthood has far more freedom than I ever knew as a child. I'm also mentally ill, and even in my hindered state, I know more freedom than my childhood self who was always seeking his mother's approval in vain, and wished every night for a dad.
Difference between you and the children who hurt animals. You knew it was causing suffering. Generally, the other children do not. I was also the kid who would have been horrified and I was forced to grow up faster than my peers. I don't think innocence should precursor the ability to help understand consequence, but I do think there is something to children allowed to be children going through the stages that actually makes them well... dumber, for lack of a better way to put it, but possibly healthier because they go through the stages and can forgive themselves for the things that admittedly the adults should have been keeping more of an eye on. Childhood is only free if there are adults to facilitate it. Freedom is never free. So I definitely agree with you. Kids that don't have available, loving capable parents (economically, emotionally, physically) don't get childhoods in the way people think.
I have been saving up tale foundry videos for FOUR MONTHS and its been hell. everytime i get you on my feed and i break down in tears but i had to hold on so i could binge it all at once. as i type this i have a queue ready and whole bunch of chores to do as i listen. This is gonna be the most godly time of my life. thank you.
I don’t ever want to return to my childhood. Always being beaten, always being screamed at, nothing I did made anyone happy. The only time anyone interacted with me is because a need had arisen in that person to torment me. Now that I am an adult, I am free from that and can now defend myself.
Reminded me of an episode of Digimon Ghost Game where Petermon kidnaps and brainwashes children to play with him forever in a pocket dimension, and if any of the kids even grow taller or try to act responsible, he attempts to kill them for "becoming a lying adult".
Wow, Digimon has actually made this kind of Peter Pan reference? I love the original Digimon Adventure and now ny respect towards the franchise grew even more!
Peter Pan and Wendy was and still is my favorite childhood book. And this is very insightful, I think that one thing that wasn't mentioned was that beloved Tinker Bell was even forgotten by Peter after she dies as "faeries do not live long", and that by not growing up Peter refuses to grow in wisdom as most people do. He seeks adventure even calling death a great adventure, but refuses to see how growing up is an adventure as well. This perspective of growing a heart is fantastic, and perhaps love forced him to grow a little wisdom though at his rate it could take a long time for him to truly grow. I don't remember where I was going with this, I just love hearing perspectives on my favorite childhood book. thank you.
This amazingly explains what Gon goes through in the chimera ant, Hunter x Hunter. When he kills Pitou mercilessly, Gon is just acting as a child would in these horrific conditions, not out of some hidden inner darkness as some people might believe.
“Lord of the flies” sums up the cruelty of children very well. I absolutely agree that empathy is something that needs to be taught. If it isn’t nurtured it will die off much like a (as you described) tiny seed. Seems we’re born narcissistic sociopaths and it’s through experiences and guidance that we learn things such as humility, introspection and the ability to acknowledge/care about the repercussions of our actions. 15:44 brilliant.
Thank you for talking about Peter pan’s character development. Thank you for getting Disney peters age almost right. (He should be 16 since he was modeled after Bobby who was his voice actor and reference and he was 16 at the time ✨)
I'm glad some of her co-workers showed her the consequences of her actions. Some of the good people she got along with ruined their lives because of her ignorance.
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nope
Your new intro cooks
No thank you.
I was told he kills the lost children and that’s why they never grow old
Agatha Christie has a quote I think of about this cruelty:
“Youth is crude, youth is strong, youth is powerful-yes, and cruel! And one thing more-youth is vulnerable.”
Agatha was a brilliant person!
Sounds like a wise woman.
I still remember when I almost drowned someone when I was a child, because I did not know I could unalive them back then.
I mean, after reading Murder on the Orient Express, I wouldn't really take notes on psychology from Agatha Christie...
@@JabamiLainwtf
@@sinisternorimaki No one has said it is psychology. And you should read her books around WWII era-she was conservative, like her country at the time, but she talks about Hitl*r and why folks fell for his nonsense. Those are the ones that should be taught in schools.
it's interesting that "when you grow up, your heart dies" and "growing up means growing a heart" can both be equally true.
growing from childhood into adolescence and young adulthood involves growing a heart, but growing too far into adulthood and forgetting your childhood causes your heart to die.
what a strange world, eh?
That's why I advised my niece to find the things that give her joy, not happiness, happiness is nice but fleeting, but real, undiluted joy, and never give that up. Because they can take everything from you and will, but joy will always see her through the worst things life can throw you.
@@TwisterTornado Thanks. And the name is just there because it's funny to me.
@@TwisterTornado Yeah. I get people insulting me for it, trying to say I'm one of those Joker society meme guys, and I'm sitting here going "Funny name is funny" on my end. Part of my advice of finding the joy.
@@TwisterTornado Where in the blue hell are you getting that? I'm applying the advice to myself.
@@TwisterTornado Your choice.
“I can do no wrong. For I do not know what it is.”
Nice Satan reference.
"I won't ruin your childhood I promise"
*proceeds to ruin the meaning of childhood*
Got old after the first 3 times and would do anything to make It stop after the 100th
It's not ruining if it's showing you a truth you'd rather ignore.
@@MrBern-ex3wq ruining a delusion is still ruining
@@topcatfan I'm contesting the term of "ruination" here. I don't think it's ruination, it's more like revelation.
@@MrBern-ex3wq The revelation may perhaps be that childhood may not be so much 'innocent' as 'ignorant'.
Childhood, up to a certain age, is essentially egotistic. We rate the world by our own reaction to it; it isn't until later that we learn empathy. It's a pity that some people haven't yet got to that stage...
Peter Pan "thinning out" the lost boys in the original was the first time I'd heard of his darker side, but in retrospect, that side of him had clear signs even in the Disney version. He clearly has some selfish tendencies, engages in rough play and sometimes bullying behavior, and those are minor compared to some of the other things he's done. For one, he cut off Captain Hook's hand and seemingly has no shred of remorse over it. But more importantly, he absolutely _revels_ in the idea of Hook being eaten by the crocodile, later a giant octopus in the sequel, even hammering the point by repeatedly referring to him as a codfish.
The interesting thing is that some of that stays with us even in adulthood. The notion that a bad guy deserves any and all of the bad things that happens to them is a quite frequent point of view.
@@arturoaguilar6002especially on social media
Mercy is weird
Those guys who decided to do a horror movie about Peter Pan once it's copyright expired could have easily used this concept to create a story where it seems like it's the regular Peter Pan story, but later it's starts to get dark as we see what he does to the growing children. But noooo, those idiots where too lazy to investigate and decided to make another boring cliché murderer and just slap a Peter Pan outfit on him
@@pn2294 Especially when you are vehemently against criminal rights.
Guys, in all serious business, you can't have it both ways. I know you're two different groups of people (mostly) but I don't want nuanced nothingness I need answers. And fast. All I know is that at this point I have to either pick a side and gain the hate of another, or I just have to give up entirely because mankind as a whole is still two minds about this issue. You can't complain Disney needs to go back to the good ol' days where you kill off villains in the most gruesome way possible... and then simultaneously suggest we need empathy for every living thing possible no matter how evil.
@@Manas-co8wl If you don't want nuance, you don't want room for intelligent thought. There is no "one-size-fits-all" solution (or at least no just solution) that doesn't require the consideration of individual circumstances in each case. The reason extremes are so popular is because they provide people with thought-stopping cliches that make it so that no energy has to be spent on thinking. Thought-stopping cliches are not the answer; they're another example of the childish cruelty that this video is about.
In the words of Sonic from Sonic Boom: "I can't be swimming around with a bunch of 5 year olds. They can be so cruel when they sense weakness"
Knuckles: “That’s why on the first day, you have to beat up the biggest one in the yard.”
Amy: “Knuckles, that’s prison.”
Knuckles: “Only if you let it be.”
That was my first thought when watching this video XD!!!
Never thought I'd see a Sonic Boom quote in a Peter Pan video essay.
"Innocence involves an unseeing acceptance of things at face value, an ignorance of the area below the surface. In that humiliating moment I looked beyond myself and into the depths of another person. This was the beginning of compassion, and one cannot have both compassion and innocence."
- Eugenia Collier, "Marigolds"
Honestly i think its a nurture thing
Cause realistically there are young kids who are kind and gentle and accepting of differences
@@goblinofsharksnacks Kids can absolutely be kind, but ignorance and compassion are antithetical, and our idealized version of innocence is cornerstoned by ignorance.
@@goblinofsharksnacksI believe it's the difference between being nice because you don't know any better versus being nice because it's the right thing to do. And the kids who were nurtured like you said are the latter
@@sokokokoko true, but i dont think kids are all inherently cruel, some are blunt others are far worse, it varies a lot, but nurture starts from day 1 so who knows, though being a social species if we were inherently cruel we probably wouldn't have gotten far in wilder times
@@goblinofsharksnacks I'd say you're right that kids aren't inherently cruel. That's not what I meant by not having compassion. A lack of compassion doesn't have to equal cruelty. Think of if a child's being nice because that's what they believe in versus if they're being nice because they know being mean will get them in trouble. The latter situation is not compassion, it's just rule following for their own gain. Not cruel, but egocentric. Not being able to fully understand other people's feelings or thinking about others doesn't make them cruel (but I suppose the _actions_ that they take as a result of their lack of understanding can be cruel), just young, naive and ignorant. Which doesn't make them bad, they just need a wider worldview.
I always thought you always stay the same in Neverland, realising that Peter could just control his age is even more bizarre than what I thought it really was.
2:51 In an addendum or other story about Peter Pan, it fleshes out his origin story. He rushes out to fly about with unknown creatures (possibly fairies). But time in fairyland isn’t the same as time in the mundane world. What may have been a few hours to him were months in the normal magicless realm.
While he was been gone, his mother was no doubt frantic with terror and grief. After months of fruitless searching, she gradually let go of her misery and gave birth to another child. However, she never forgot the loss of her first babe. Determined not to lose the second one, she made certain the windows remained firmly shut.
Naturally, baby Peter knows nothing of this. He doesn’t realize the passage of time, the pain his mother felt or the rationale behind her decision to bar the windows against kidnapping intruders. All he knows is that she’s locked the window against him and gotten herself a new baby to replace him. (Think of Lotso Huggin’ Bear’s sense of betrayal when he finally returned to his owner only to find she’d gotten a new toy bear.)
Believing that all adults are not to be trusted, Peter resolves never to grow up. So we get a baby boy firmly entrenched in childhood and steadfastly refusing to allow himself to become an evil, nasty adult (a decision likely reinforced by the murderous pirates constantly at war with him and his Lost Boys).
@@QueenBoadicea I find it more intriguing to realize that the pirates were likely only at war with the lost boys *because* peter keeps murdering them
Yeah, I thought "Neverland" was the _Land_ where you _Never_ grew up... and that was the entire point. And the lost boys weren't "ready to grow up," so they stayed there, but Wendy went back, and had kids, etc. So Jane meets the _same,_ completely unaged lost boys. -Just because I bought the book, doesn't mean I ever have to rēad it.-
@@DellikkilleD One interpretation I've seen is that the pirates were former Lost Boys who started growing up but who somehow managed to escape Peter 'thinning them out'. They couldn't go back home and couldn't stay with the Lost Boys, so they became pirates with a vendetta against him.
@@DellikkilleDFew, if any, real pirates are or were nice people who only did naughty things because people were mean to them. You'd be a hostage within the first minute.
Ask someone who’s bullied as a kid and they’ll tell you how cruel kids can be
Kids are bastards
Yes.
Yes.
That will really teach you.
Edit: bro why do all of my really weird comments blow up 😭 thanks anyway
I read “who’s” as “who has” rather than “who was” and the sentiment likely still applies. Evil + time = guilt, and all
Yup.
Yep. Or worked with them. 😵
"Perhaps it's the Heart that weighs everyone else down.." Damn... that, that really hits.
It invites a dark thought, how happy we would be if we lost it.
@@JeroenDoes
Could it be possible for an adult to lose their heart?
@@JeroenDoes happy or satisfied?
@@JeroenDoesdon't know about "happy". Would you still experience and consider life ?
@@JabamiLain This is not life. This is sickness.
reminds of how many horror movies have absolutely horrifying children characters, what happens if a powerful being is just a baby instead of a grown person that might have plenty of concepts like regret, death and empathy, even if they choose to ignore them. in the words of marge simpson "kids can be so cruel"
I saw this one video essay that analysed the skinamarink through the lens of the monster being a child. It was seriously pretty cool.
"We can?! Cool!"
The Collector in The Owl House.
Paimon in hereditary is this
I would really recommend the book Beloved by Toni Morrison. It talks about the concept of a babies ghost in a way I’ve never seen before
Children are pure, in the sense that they also don't have any concept of others being important. For that, they are free, and also the most terrifying little things.
That's why giving them something to take care of is "to give them a heart".
Kind of reminds me of that Twilight Zone episode “It’s a Good Life,” where this one kid has omnipotence, and all the adults in town have to walk on eggshells to avoid angering him, because he’s just a kid, and doesn’t understand the consequences of his actions
Oh my gosh, I was just thinking of the same episode!! Exactly! There’s something so bone-chilling about the idea of a child being given immense power.
Somehow reminds me of Onion from Steven Universe LMAO
OHHH AND THE COLLECTOR FROM THE OWL HOUSE!!
Please don't mention The Owl House.
Didn't the Simpsons have an episode parodying that story with Bart in a very early Treehouse of Horror special?
That was a humorously dark concept. 😁
Reminds me of a short story I read as a part of the school curriculum that included quite graphic, gruesome depictions of young children killing sparrow hatchlings, in *huge* amounts, and it was the most mundane thing ever for them. Traumatized me forever as a kid... And taught me that children's lack of understanding of how important life and death truly are is really horrifying
It's hardly as though adults don't find killing huge numbers of animals routine. Are you vegan?
@@andrewsauer2729 Tell me you missed the point of the comment without telling me you missed the whole point of the comment.
@@andrewsauer2729 Big difference between killing animals for food and for fun.
@@andrewsauer2729 Get your politics out of here!
@@andrewsauer2729 Someone didn't read the comment.
The way I see it, Peter Pan was meant to be this morally grey character that represents the good and bad about childhood.
There are many things about being a kid worth holding on to, but there's also a lot of growth and maturity that you miss out on if you don't grow up.
We must embrace our inner child without letting it be the dominant force in our lives.
I think Hollywood has definitely forgotten about that side of the story
Your way of saying both adulthood and childhood is important made me feel good, thank you
Edit: ohhh my goodnesss why did I get all these likes wow
@@Sayoriismyfavdoki899 Yeah, he reminds me of Pokey/Porkey from the Mother series in a way: a kid who never learns to grow up. If you've never played Earthbound or Mother 3 or had this understanding of it while playing, I recommend you try playing/replaying it.
It truly is a franchise about growing up and moving on that tackles this kind of concept.
@@johnpett1955 I don’t know what they are :’)
This honestly makes me respect Peter Pan a lot more as a story...Even as a kid, admittedly I didn't like the whole, "Childhood is so amazing...but we all have to go back to the real world to grow up eventually." aspect of it, and while part of that may be due to me still growing up, it lacked that depth I think I needed that it's not one or the other- or that even in like Wendy's case, children are expected to grow up during childhood in hard times of their families lives.
@@Sayoriismyfavdoki899 they're video games of the rpg (role playing game) genre. Famous for their sense of humor and their deep/emotional themes.
Another source of danger for the Lost Boys besides Peter thinning out the ranks as they grew up was when they were winning against the pirates, but Peter did not want the gane time to end yet. In those cases, he would simply switch sides and start attacking his own former teammates. He forgets them as soon as they die, too.
Kids are weird in their duality of innocence, on the one hand they will pick up on the smallest of differences then point them out without hesitation and mark the person as one of the others. Though on the other, I've seen children make displays of compassion towards people who adults would typically shun that have been some of the most heart warming things I have ever witnessed.
I always loved how Lord of the flies explored this concept as well, however it was incredible to learn about the Tonga Castaway boys who suffered a similar predicament that instead came together in a fashion that's almost a tale as tall as the fiction itself.
I was just thinking that there was more overlap here with Lord of the Flies than I ever would have guessed. Like dang! And in the end the adults step in.
"The heartlessness of children."
Empathy is a learned trait.
I meant yeah? Thats kinda the conclusion of the video. You neednt spell it out.
Empathy is a trained trait. It exists in a primal form, but needs to be shaped to fit the world the person lives in. Babies have empathy, but they lack the tools to use it effectively.
@Julcaaaa you needn't have said that
@@Julcaaaa yeah, I'm not about to take English advice from someone who can't get ellipsis right.
Empathy is a trait people are literally not capable of before about ten. It's why you can't diagnose a child as a sociopath. Their brains are not yet developed enough for actual emotional empathy. Cognitive empathy, perhaps. Actual, true, emotional empathy, though, heck no.
Peter being aged up in the Disney adaptation probably has its roots with other adaptations as well as the film’s production. Aside from the actor, Bobby Driscoll, just entering his adolescence when he was given the role, it was also commonplace for women actors to play the part of Peter Pan in the stageplays - inadvertently making the character seem older than he originally was.
Interestingly, in an earlier draft of the film, Disney was originally going to adapt the “Peter Pan in Kensington Garden” backstory for a flashback sequence, but it ended up getting scrapped.
If that one scene in the Disney movie where Peter is creeping with half his face in shadow doesn’t tell you what you need to know, I don’t know what does.
My first thought was that he looks like a demon, lol
@@sendmorerum8241 The Disney animators made Peter Pan look like a burglar when we see Peter Pan up close for the first time in the movie. LOL 😆
@@BirdsandGhibliFan But why did they have to choose pointy ears? It's immediately giving "not human" vibes. He never looked like this before Disney
@@sendmorerum8241 True. My guess is that they wanted him to look like a jolly elf, but I don’t think there’s any evidence or implications that he’s an elf in the books. It’s a very odd character design choice. 🤔
Yeah, I was in line for Peter Pan's flight at WDW, and a kid asked his parents if Peter Pan was a bad guy when he saw that picture of it. He is kid
KIDS ARE CRUEL, JACK! AND I AM VERY IN TOUCH WITH MY INNER CHILD
Lol
Wow the literal first comment I saw lol
You can't hurt me jack!
Kids are cruel, Jack! And I love miners!
That's a nice meme, exquisite
Even as a kid something always seemed off about peter to me. Something about him just basically kidnapping lost children and keeping them in neverland just seemed kinda creepy. Thanks for another great episode!
To be fair, in the book, Wendy, Michael, and John were the only confirmed case of him personally taking kids. The others were taken by Neverland, itself, which is implied to be sentient.
@@PyroGothNerd Neverland is sentient in the book? That’s some cosmic horror right there. 😲😱
@@PyroGothNerd
Ayo WTF? Neverland is alive? 😨
@@BirdsandGhibliFan
No joke. A giant earth monster with tentacles snatching up lost boys and runaways is a terrifying thought.
Literallyyyyy. Even as a kid I thought he was creepy as fuck
The way Peter Pan is described in his classic incarnations remind me of The Collector from the Owl House.
He's basically a god, a demigod at the very least, able to manipulate space-time and transform any sort of matter into what he sees fit at the snap of his digits.
However...he's still a child. He's like a seven year old whose games of make believe never seem to have any end. He's not malicious, but moreso playfully oblivious, unaware of the damage he's capable of doing.
Funny you should refer to him as being like a god. Because Peter Pan is literally named after the Greek god Pan.
As a child I HATED other children so badly because in my autistic brain they were cruel little monsters who kept bullying me. I couldn't even be mean towards them because I was 'wait, when somebody insults me on my appearace I feel bad, I would be the bad person if I did the same!' that was such a frustrating phase in my life 0.o I feel the empathy I got was double theirs and that is still biting me in the rear decades later, even when crappy adults scream at my face without trying to listen to what I have to say and I'm too empathetic to scream back at them. Yay.
That is why adults and elders are there to guide the children and to ensure that the children when they grow up to be more...well responsible, righteous, flexible, and caring.
"All children, except one, grow up." Probably the best introduction to a book.
I've understood the cruelty of Peter Pan for some time. We read the original book to the kids when they were young, because, really, it's an amazingly crafted story. There is a very thin line between reality and magic, as you might expect from the mind of a child. Mothers are magical beings in their own right, and this passage from the first chapter has been one of the many that has stuck with me:
It is the nightly custom of every good mother after her children are asleep to rummage in their minds and put things straight for next morning, repacking into their proper places the many articles that have wandered during the day. If you could keep awake (but of course you can't) you would see your own mother doing this, and you would find it very interesting to watch her. It is quite like tidying up drawers. You would see her on her knees, I expect, lingering humorously over some of your contents, wondering where on earth you had picked this thing up, making discoveries sweet and not so sweet, pressing this to her cheek as if it were as nice as a kitten, and hurriedly stowing that out of sight. When you wake in the morning, the naughtiness and evil passions with which you went to bed have been folded up small and placed at the bottom of your mind and on the top, beautifully aired, are spread out your prettier thoughts, ready for you to put on.
Is that passage from the book? It's lovely
This analysis of children being naturally heartless reminded me of an observation and plot point made in The Girl Who Circumnavigated Fairyland in a Ship of Her Own Making by Catherynne M. Valente. The main character September is described as "Somewhat Grown" and "Somewhat Heartless," and on her journey, she stands at a crossroads with signs that point to different destinations including "To Lose Your Mind" and "To Break Your Heart." Since she is somewhat heartless, she chooses the second path, and goes on a journey that forces her to mature in ways that are kind of traumatic for a child in Fairyland. But unlike Peter who only becomes a better child, she becomes a better child who will grow into a better adult.
Is this a YA novel?
This would make a great anime adaptation.
@@Passions5555 Why's that relevant? The age-range doesn't change the meaning.
@MeemahSN because I was curious? I honestly do not get the reaction of some people online. There was zero disdain in my question. I never suggested that it being YA novel or not would "change the meaning." Seriously, WTF? It seems you are the one who thinks YA novels are somehow less than other older aged novels if you read into my question that way. Well, I don't think YA novels are less than. I grew up with R.L. Stein, who is a YA novel writer and he's great and I STILL read his books.
@@Passions5555 It's a middle grade book by Catheryne Valente, and the title is exactly as is stated. It's pretty good. I recommend it
In the webtoon forever after, when the protagonist can't fly with fairy dust it is revealed that only the joyous, innocent and heartless can fly, but since she has gone through character development and learn to care for others, she has grown up and at the end decides that flying isn't worth loosing what she has learned from growing up
Another small point to be observed is that, when on a later visit, Wendy asks after Tinkerbell, Peter is all "Who?" Turns out that, unlike Peter, fairies *don't* live forever. ='[.]'=
A child's innocence is only limited into the ways they experience reality.
And the more the child grows up, the more the innocence will lessen as well, turning it into knowledge.
I remember Neil Gaimen wrote a book called Snow, Glass, Apples which was a dark villainous version of snow white, I always wanted them to create a version of Peter Pan like that in the movies, show the dark cruel a moral side of children when theirs no adult in the picture, would be an interesting version.
Actually it does exist, it's called Lost Boy: The True Story of Captain Hook. And this tells the story of the very first lost boy and how he became to be who he was.
@@annieweasley3339Lost Boy is a marvelous book! Depicts Peter as a classic toxic narcissist. Another dark take on Peter Pan is Brom’s The Child Thief.
My first thought was "Lord of the Flies".
@@annieweasley3339 thanks I'll check it out
@@michaelwatson5000 oh never heard of that book before, I'll give it a try n.n
Even as a small child, I always thought Peter Pan was kinda effed up.
Totally same here. Peter Pan made me nervous.
Me too lmao, especially with Wendy and the mermaids
@@darlenefraser3022 peter kills god, satan and Cthulhu and laughs
@tomkatt8274 And God comes back and lightnings Peter. Kills Satan and pencil erase Cthulhu.😅😂😂😂
Same. Even as a kid I never liked Peter Pan.
There's a lot going on w/ the writer's side of this story.
His brother died in an accident, and his mother was inconsolable, to the point of neglect. He would only receive attention when pretending to be his dead brother.
I think another consideration to take on Barry's Pan is that Peter and Wendy are a parallel to Adam and Eve. Wendy's "kiss," the thymbol, is her apple. She offers Peter the gift of empathy, the humanity which comes with knowing-- and rather than this being original sin, I think Barry sees it as a holistic aspect humanity.
To accept Wendy's kiss, Peter has to lose his innocence. And to lose his innocence, he would lose Neverland, his Eden.
By ultimately rejecting this, Peter retains Eden but never gains full humanity. Though he does learn enough to be able to at least become partially human. To grow up a little bit, for Wendy in the end.
Ironic how many adults are overgrown children based on their behaviours and responses when you assert a boundary.
The meaning of the story is to, essentialy, grow out of your *childish selfishness & cruelty,* but without losing your *heart & wonder*
Anything less and you're not really a complete person. Something I think has only gotten more relevant as time has progressed.
Heck, its what makes the dichotomy of Peter Pan and Captain Hook fit so well thematically.
Peter is brave, isn't genuinely malicious and wants everyone to have fun; but he's also petty, selfish, dismissive of his outright cruel acts and is downright self-absorbed.
Whereas Hook, despite being an adult, is all of that specifically *because* he threw away his heart a *long* time ago. He is NOT ignorant of the cruelty of his actions like Peter, yet he still partakes in it almost gleefully.
Its what makes *Wendy* such an important character. She is essentially the ideal outcome, a perfect middle ground.
She still has her wonder and empathy even by the end, but is aware that, at some point, you have to grow up. Take responsobility for your own actions and that of those around you. You can't stay innocent and ignorant forever.
She sees Peter less as the hero later depictions would portray him as and more as a cautionary tale of what she *thought* she wanted at the beginning of the story.
This very much reminds me of Berserk's Lost Children arc; a fantastical neverland full of expendable, sociopathic playmates.
It's one of my favorite arcs from Berserk
yes! was looking for this comment!
@@Passions5555 For sure. Knowing all this, it must have been a strong inspiration for the arc.
Both also have fairies in them too lol.
The book "Lost Boy" by Christina Henry covers exactly this idea. Honestly one of the best psychological horror stories I have ever read.
Yes, I loved that book!
One of the reasons why I prefer J.M. Berry's original story of Peter Pan, Fox's Peter Pan and the Pirates, and Gerald Brom's interpretation, 'The Child Thief', is because they stay true to the aspect of Peter Pan that the Disney version avoids, childhood cruelty, how Peter forgets everything, especially the pirates that he kills, and how the battles between Peter, the Lost Boys and the Pirates is well bloody. That and the Disney version makes Captain Hook a joke, whereas the book paints him as a complicated threat. Obsessed with vengeance on Peter Pan but also hints of envy towards Smee as how the children gravitate to him, and Hook's obsession with being a gentleman and good form.
Child Thief was so good. Hook was amazing in that one
Fox's Peter Pan and the Pirates even has Hook call out the fact that Peter will never live a full life because of his eternal youth
I also, watched Peter Pan and the Pirates and thought it was one of the best adaptations of the original story, but many of my friends hated it since they couldn't wrap their heads around how different it was to Disney.
I'm so happy to see a video essay on the heartlessness of children, especially because it isn't done in a malicious way. It's just truth: empathy is not inherent. It is learned. And the lack of empathy is a major issue when left unattended.
I have never intrinsically understood the view of childhood as innocent and whimsical because my childhood was anything but. I and my siblings were cruel. We didn't have responsible adults who could teach us to be empathetic, so life was constant torture and lashing out in return. When I got older, I despised myself and my behavior so much that I came to equally despise childhood and any attempt to label it innocent and pure. It wasn't until I became an adult and sought therapy that I realized my awful behavior and years spent beating myself down to force teach myself empathy as best I could was due to a failing on my parents' part. A child cannot learn that which they have never been taught, at least until they reach a level of brain development where they can undertake that learning process alone (for me, this dtsrted at 12 and slowly got better from there).
I still can't ascribe innocence to children. But lack of understanding, lack of development, and therefore lack of realizing consequences have taken their place. Seeing them as empty vessels and sponges that can't know better without a guiding hand has helped replace the illogical hatred.
All this to say that this video makes me feel seen. It's so refreshing. So many pieces of literature and people just ignore the heartlessness of childhood. To everyone's detriment, I think.
But then there is an opposite named hyperempathy, where being so selfless and feeling empathy too intensely can go too far. People with hyper empathy struggle to have healthy relationships in turn can get mentally kidnapped by dangerous strangers and other kinds of sociopaths.
The original Peter Pan actually reminds me a lot of the character Anthony Fremont from the Twilight Zone episode “it’s a good life”, in the sense that they are both young boys who are given these magical abilities, but (due do to them lacking emotional intelligence and empathy for others) only use them to entertain themselves while treating the people trapped in their own pocket dimensions as nothing more than toys whom they often kills off or punish when said people displease them.
Same!
The funny thing is that in the original story, the character tries to help others by granting them wishes when they feel dissatisfied; but he never thinks on the consequences and end up hurting them instead of helping (that's why everyone force themselves to have happy thoughts).
That episode is based on a short story of the same name. Very good short story. But also Anthony Fremont is infinitely worse. I’d rather be stuck dealing with Peter Pan.
“Peter Pan isn’t a bad guy.”
Proceeds to lists his crimes.
The point is that people are judging him by adult standards as if he himself is an adult.
Proceeds to miss the point of the video. He isn’t a bad guy. How can you judge someones morality or label them good or bad when they’re incapable of knowing right from wrong, or even learning what it means?
Honestly, this is the kind of video I have needed for years.
Childish cruelty is so often ignored, treated as nonexistent or something that cannot actually do harm. Often in tandem goes a lack of acknowledgement that empathy needs to be cultivated, the little innate empathy of all humans isn't enough to override someone's urge to disregard others for the sake of their own enjoyment - which is often a motive of bullies that are NOT motivated by a cruel home life or insecurity, but instead pure joy in the distress of others.
I needed this. Really didn't expect such catharsis on a random Wednesday, but it's so appreciated. I love your analyses of literature and media!
"someone's urge to disregard others for the sake of their own enjoyment."
It's just a prank bro. - You're too sensitive. - I was just joking.
Basically situations like that are an assessment that ones own personal feelings matter more than others. Disregarding personal impact, especially in lieu of harmful intent is a common thing people do, not just kids, but kids are notorious for it because they don't get it.
I've talked to and heard of a lot of bullies, people who later in life were able to actually confront them and straight up ask what was going on. In many of the cases of someone not having a terrible home life and lashing out for any sense of control or reflecting patterns of their abuser, it was often that they didn't understand that the victim wasn't in on or okay with the joke. They think they're having a bit of harmless (relatively) fun and don't understand the other person is an equal to them. This creates a sort of messing with your pet dynamic. They think they're teasing something that isn't that harmed by being teased because they don't see them as a fellow equal human and also don't think that their teasing is causing harm.
Think of it like fake throwing the ball for a dog. Is it particularly nice to do? Not really, but we know it's pretty dang harmless. The dog isn't emotionally distressed/frustrated so long as it isn't done for too long, in fact, it can be fun as a prank so long as it's rectified. I think a lot of bullies actually see things this way, especially as kids because they don't get it. Sometimes in adulthood they look back and go. "but it wasn't a dog and it was a lot more mean than fake throwing a ball."
I think it's also influenced by hierarchy, which goes into a persons psychology if later in life they still find it funny to have done x or y to their victims (while still thinking either due to their intent to just have fun or finding the action to be harmless, regardless of how the victim felt/feels.)
Still messed up, still not okay, but it also means it's harder to pin down to get someone to see that what they're doing isn't cool.
People also get super defensive if you point out their actions have consequence even if their intent is benign. I honestly think it's something we should have a course on in schools because you see this same issue deep seated into adulthood with many many many people.
Of course he's cruel
HE'S IN TOUCH WITH HIS INNER CHILD
WHEN THE WIND IS SLOW AND THE FIRES HOT-
The biggest take-away I had from this video is the scene about the kid with the stomach ache and the two kids around them dealing with it differently.
That's quite a notable ponderance. You see examples of this in different forms everywhere in adulthood too. You see this as disconnected from you as politicians on tv attacking the weak of the other side. Though, it often happens as close as co-workers.
Peter Pan was one of my favorite books as a child. I listened to it over and over, many nights in my bed.
Looking back, I can see how I never thought the kids were right to leave their loving family.
The narrator himself condemns them as selfish.
To me, the story represented the desire for adventure and a place where I was in control, and how children struggle with this duality of wanting independence as well as their parents to shield them.
I never thought about Peter being the only one to change, that’s super interesting.
To further ruin your childhoods, upon BOTH of their deaths, Peter forgets who Captain Hook and Tinkerbell even are.
Like they never existed to him.
I have a six year old daughter, a six month old son and a degree in human development. I don’t think cruelty is inherent but socialized. My daughter has an enormous natural capacity for empathy and is devastated when she accidentally causes harm. I also raise my kids giving them as much agency as possible within the boundaries of acting safe and appropriate. In turn of the century England, the main child rearing philosophy was behaviorism. Emotional neglect was the norm, and in fact seen as ideal. Children are seen, not heard. I think much of the cruelty of Peter Pan can be attributed not to the natural cruelty of children, but the way children mirror the treatment they are used to, and they all long for more power and agency than they have. And in the time and place where Peter Pan was written, a child would mirror the cruelty around them
Children can also be made into monsters by endless indulgence. Perhaps your children are sensitive because it was in your own temperament as well. Those sort of emotive qualities do tend to have a strong underlying biological drive element. But so do darker human qualities. Look at the case of Danila Kozlovsky, among many others. Caligula & Tiberious come also to mind. In some families empathy & sympathy are inclined qualities. In others cruelty is a family legacy. Perhaps be more mindful of the bias of subconsciously believing that others share our own emotive qualities. People are built all different ways, where the line between nature & nurture vanish into statistical trivia.
@@brianhirt5027 absolutely, epigenetics plays a role. My fear from this video is that people who don’t have kids or understand development at all will just have more fuel to be anti-child, which I think is based in unhealed trauma and is a real problem. I’m talking people who still think children shouldn’t be allowed to act like children in public.
I think Peter Pan was a way for both JM Barrie and Walt Disney to cope with their experience of being a child, consciously or not. I believe each generation will reinterpret the myth of Peter Pan to suit the culture and treatment of children in the time and place they live in
@@hannahwankier7459 Eh, in my experience people come to a kneejerk answer & spend the rest of their lives retcon style justifying it. People are anti-kids (I think) for numerous motivations. Cost & lack of social support is a factor. Bigger one is all the doomers constantly saturating every possible angle of the mediasphere in every flavor of custom-cotoure artesian crafted despair imaginable. Youths who don't think they have a future to look forward to themselves don't tend to bring babies into it, go fig. Until we can displace the hyper-saturated landscape of profiteering doomerism our kids will be too scared to have kids themselves.
You don't need to be a parent or child psychology degree to know children. We all spent 16 years growing up around them, and I think that teaches you more of human nature than three years of lectures.
Anyone who has been bullied can tell you how cruel and callous children are. Many are nasty, nasty pieces of work that get a free pass because they're seen as innocent and incapable of doing no wrong.
And don't trot out the old line that all bullies are poor individuals emulating their abusers, more deserving of sympathy than even their victims. No, some are just nasty, cruel psychopaths.
@@alongshoot5844 I used to be one of those "nasty, cruel psychopaths" you're describing, I can assure you a significant amount of us turned out like that specifically because of the way we were treated and had been reinforced the older we got, a good chunk of it is definitely emotional neglect and emulation of adult figures but it takes a great deal of work to try and correct these anti-social behaviours to not turn out like our genetic donors and parental figures
They don't deserve more sympathy than the kids they tormented, but that doesn't mean they deserve no sympathy to begin with. Your childhood experience is only one perspective, child psychology is way more complex than you're giving credit
There’s a really great book called Lost Boy by Christina Henry, which explores Peter as a villain through the eyes of Captain Hook, who in this book was the first Lost Boy that “betrayed” Peter by growing up and rejecting the carefree callousness of youth.
The two have a very interesting and heartbreaking dynamic, Hook loves and loathes Peter in equal measure since Peter was both his hero and captor, and Hook is in a way a traumatized boy trapped in the body of an adult. I hope it gets a movie adaptation someday.
It is SUCH a good book
I literally wrote my thesis on the original book/play, so I guarantee this will NOT ruin my childhood! ❤😂
EDIT: Thank you thank you THANK YOU for making this video! As a person who grew up with the original book, I am sick and tired of people who keep calling Peter a sociopath and disregarding everything beautiful and heartrending about this story! I actually cried several times while writing my thesis, because both Peter and Captain Hook are so completely and utterly alone. I feel understood! ❤
This childish cruelty reminds me of Anthony Fremont from Jerome Bixby's "It's A Good Life." A child with god-like power is cosmic horror.
My thoughts exactly.
I feel the movie Hook kind of understands this, or at least flips the dynamics on its head. Peter left Never-Never-Land, he grew up, matured, became a father, but he also forgot what it was like to be a kid, he distanced himself from his children, his family, he became *too* grown up. Hook by contrast is petty and childish, constantly looking to settle old scores and reap petty vengeance, kidnapping Peter's kids and trying to manipulate them to hate him, forcing his crew to go along with whatever he wants even if they don't want to play pirates anymore. Peter also learns to hold onto his inner child and never forget what it was like to be a kid, and it helps him reconnect with his own kids, while Hook's perpetual childishness ends up killing him in the end.
Fun fact: Peter actually has his memory erased very frequently. To the point he forgets the names and the people around him. When Wendy and her brothers were flying for a month, Peter would go down and talk to some mermaids and come back up and ask who they were.
Idk where it says Wendy helps him with spring cleaning. But he comes back to visit her for many summers after she came back home until he didn't. Wendy herself thought he may have forgotten her, even when she asks where tinker bell is, he doesn't know. (It's implied she died)
Because growing up, is learning! And even if Peter stays a child forever he will mature in a way by living life. And his whole being is against growing up in all senses of the word. So he doesn't at all.
I work with kids and I can tell you that they are very much like sociopaths til they grow up
The ending where Peter looks on at “the one joy from which he must forever be bared” always struck me as him choosing to reject being adopted and embrace the other joys that ending mentions, because he recognizes that, even if he tried, that “one joy” was never in the cards for him regardless.
I feel that what bared him from that joy was the guilt he felt towards Wendy's mother for what he almost did it. Too complicated of an emotion for a kid like him.
Some kids can be very mean. I was the exact definition of the term "emotionally immature" as a kid. I was scary and that's why I don't have nostalgia. I feel horrible all the time for the horrible things I did as a little girl.
It's so funny how former bullies like yourself make it all about you and how you feel about what you have done.
Your victims feel worse than horrible. You probably ruined them and damaged their self esteem.
It's all about you and how you feel like a typical narcissist.
@@AutumnAprodithe bro that person was a kid at that time. Kid grow, people grow. Mistake were make and we live with the memory that had already happened. What matters here is they changed and simply share their experience here
I understand how you could see it like that, but I suppose everyone deal thing differently. I too wouldn't forgive the one whose bully me for a good chunk of my childhood. But I never bother to remember them, name or even face, I just know it happened and I have to deal with a worse mental health as the consequences from it. But in general, I don't really give two shit about them. Just hope they grow up now and learn to not do that shit to everyone else like they do to me
It obviously the action of one do have consequences. But there always a future, time always past and we never really the same person we are year ago
@@liu1806 It's strange that you have more empathy for a self pitying former bully than the bad things they did to others. What about the victims they made? I dont see former bullies pay their therapy or do anything to compensate for what they have done.
I hope she never gets forgiven.
@@AutumnAprodithe Damn Autumn, you sound like you were just like her but now are living in the river nile. I don't know if you have noticed but pretty much everyone can tell the story of how they were bullied but very few are able to become aware and go so far as to admit to the fact that they bullied too. We all don't mature at the same rate and the put upon six year old can become a total terror during puberty,
I think you are slathering it on pretty thick to think that a nine year old should be responsible for a grown person's therapy if they don't have parents that can help them learn to navigate the ever changing social rules of childhood. The parents should pay for their child's therapy or the adult should seek the help they feel ready to accept.
I, for one, would never trust a therapist paid for by the person who tormented me, are you nuts....
@@rosevan7845 Pot calls the kettle black. It's disgusting that you people rather feel sorry for bullies and defend them but blame their targets saying that they allow it.
You are no better than bullies who actively destroy lives because rather feel sorry for them and give an ounce back of what they have done to others.
"Kids are cruel Jack. And I'm very in touch with my inner child"
-Sundowner, MGR
This is such a new interpretation from the lense I always viewed Peter Pan. I had seen the Disney movie and the play, but I had heard about the strange man who wrote it and I always tgought that Peter was a child who had died, either crib death or something else slightly later, and never never land was a tall tale that adults would tell similar to heaven, except this was a heavem tailored to the mind if a mischievous child, and like "the matrix", this heaven couldn't fully satisfy because it lacked the love and guidance of parents.
To me, Peter is the tale ofa spirit who doesn't understand his true nature. He doesn't realize that his mother frieved his loss but then had a new child in his place. I also assumed that the lost boys were boys who died.
You are the only correct one. JM Barrie's literary focus was the afterlife. Peter Pan was the ghost of a dead child. You can find whimsical references to dying children all over the books, like how children must be prevented from "flying away." Not realizing its all about death means the channel didn't understand it at all.
7:47 Just remembered that my niece likes to play a game where she pretends to cut out parts of people's faces one by one, but then puts them back in
Yum yum
1:35 is a fantastic picture
It's funny, I was listening to Storytime by Nightwish and they mention peter pan and it had me thinking about how his power comes from imagination and- literally this video comes out. Life is funny sometimes
"I am the voice of Never-Never-Land, the innocence, the dreams of every man. I am the empty crib of Peter Pan, a silent kite against the blue, blue sky, every chimney, every moonlit sight. I am the story that will read you real, every memory that you hold dear."
It's rare I find a fellow Nightwish fan, much less someone who's heard of them.
omg a fellow nightwish fan!!
Nightwish is awesome! 🎶
@@dionettaeon They are pretty awesome yeah ^^
I always remember the Tinkerbell quote from the Peter Pan book, it helped me alot as an exhausted and stressed new mum in an abusive marriage.
Sounds silly I know but when Barry writes in the book that (paraphrased) "Tinkerbell isn't all good or all bad but so small she can only hold one emotion at a time and that emotion consumes her". At the time I read this, when I was in school, I barely thought anything about it. But when I had a newborn and two yr old, was sleep deprived and scared, while trying to keep my abusive now-ex husband calm and away from kids when he wasn't.
This one day he'd gone to work after a horrid morning where I'd dared ask him to seek therapy, meaning I could finally catch my breath, just as my toddler suddenly started "tantruming" and I was so frustrated with her (for no good reason, she wasn't being naughty, I was stressed and tired and still messed up in the head by now-ex, I dont even think it was a real tantrum, more her letting her frustrations out now dad wasn't home and she was safe to be normal kid with me). I remember I was frustrated at her, I think I was about to snap at her to hush up or something, when the Tinkerbell quote suddenly came back to me and it gave me a different perspective on what she was probably struggling with at the time. I mean, from her perspective, I'd suddenly rushed her and baby brother into the bedroom mid breakfast - to keep them safe but she wouldn't have been able to comprehend that at 2yrs old, all she knew was daddy was shouting at mummy and mummy had blocked the door so she couldn't come to me (cos normally when he shouted she'd cling to me, so thats probably what she wanted to do at the time and from her perspective I wasn't letting her seek that comfort from me). What kid of any age wouldn't need a big cry and good old stomp about after a morning like that.
I mean there's me, an adult capable of managing multiple emotions at one time and I was still massively overwhelmed by fear and stress, imagine how much more terrifying that is to a barely toddler who doesn't have those essential emotional skills that most adults barely have. Those emotions would completely consume a small child, like Tinkerbell.
The quote reminded me that she wasn't tantruming she was just feeling what she felt and expressing it the only way she knew how too at that age. Perfectly normal behaviour in a very abnormal home environment.
Everytime, after than, that my ex started saying she was trying to manipulate me with her tantrums while he was at work (he had cams in the home to make sure we were obeying the rules), I started quoting the Tinkerbell quote at him, and saying I know how to care for our kids. Like my confidence really started to grow, cos I realised I was right to think that it's him that's the problem not us, up until then I knew the home environment wasn't good for our kids but I was still convinced that I was the problem, I somehow wasn't being a good enough wife or mother. That day, when I remembered the quote and really saw things from my daughters perspective, it all clicked in my head that it wasn't my fault that ex behaved the way he did (my childhood was one full of fear and pain so I barely noticed my ex's behaviour towards me until I saw it from my kids perspective, I knew to keep my kids safe and move them to a different room when ex got angry but didn't understand why it wasn't my fault my ex was the way he was - it's really hard to understand the mental difficulties when raised in an abusive home to recognise a marriage as abusive unless you've experienced it yourself). I already knew we'd have to leave him at that point, I realised that when I was pregnant with our second, cos it wasn't a safe home for ours kids, I was just searching for a safe out (which didnt happen overnight unfortunately, took years, cos with the constant surveillance and having no friends left thanks to him, plus the fact anytime police or social were called he'd just talk to them for a few minutes, never let any of them talk to me or kids, and suddenly no legal ramifications or follow ups or anything - literally he did so many obvious crimes, from punishing me by driving dangerously when our babes were in the car, to literally kidnapping his older kids from his first wife multiple times (she even tried taking him to court but judge sided with him, said she was being too emotional ffs and he got more contact with them, so I was terrified of I took him to court he'd get the kids, cos I also have disabilities), he acted as if he was untouchable cos he seemed untouchable, so I didn't see we had a safe way too leave at that time, didn't think police or social would help us, and I was by n large right but we did eventually find a way out and my kids are safe and thriving now). He was "deeply" religious (using airquotes cos it was more performative than actual faith, cos it only applied to what rules suited his goals and he'd change them almost weekly) and hated me using a western fantasy kids book as a quote to counter his "I'm the head of the household and get the final say on matters of discipline" abuse excuse, but it also meant most of his anger was directed at me rather than our kids so I felt more comfortable with that while trying to find a safe exit.
Funny what one quote can trigger in ones mind and snowball into.
2:50 This is why I suspect Peter Pan is supposed to be the spirit of a child that died as a baby and never realized it.
I was thinking along the same lines
The interesting thing about your headcanon is that Barrie drew inspiration for Peter from the death of his brother (thouggh David died at the age of 14, not an infant.)
From what I heard about Barrie's backstory, his older brother died at a very young age and was his mother's golden child. The loss marred her to the point where she flat out neglected James by ruminating nonstop. These early onset mommy issues left their developmental mark on James both emotionally and physically (he had a very late puberty).
Yes, the analysis I've heard was the Barrie's dead older brother, whom his mother forced him to sometimes pretend to be and constantly speak about, was the prototype Peter Pan. The only child who never grows up is a dead one. Barrie's non-child work is very focused on spirituality and death.
Peter Pan is my favorite book because of how deceptively complex the characters are
Excellent observation of the character of both Peter Pan and of children.
The cruel nature of childhood innocence is only tamed by the experiencing of regret for past harms against oneself or another by oneself or another. Or, through external guidance.
Being a parent, observing children, and having been a child I can fully attest to the savage nature of innocence. I have been shocked and savaged by the young and also done so myself.
While a young mind can be savage without thought, kindness is a learned trait that takes more or less self discipline depending on the encounter.
People fixating on the wish to be as Peter Pan shows a disturbing desire to be free from accountability for one's own actions and behave in an antisocial manner without consequences.
This is much like the narcissist that constantly confides that they wish they could be a real vampire so they could literally kill people to gain some energy as a practice plan to live forever. These immoral people are completely free from feeling guilt for destroying people for a small gain. And if you observe these narcissistic wannabe vampires, you will see they are doing their best in life to drain energy and resources while making miserable the people in their lives given the opportunity.
What happened to the voice actor, Bobby Driscoll, from the Disney movie was the definition of cruel and tragic.
i'm actually writing a story about a man who turns out to just be a very long-lived child. i intend on including a variety of elements in his character including childish cruelty, insatiable curiosity, and a knowitall attitude with a dash of auto-deception to cap it all off. his story concludes after he attempts to save all of life from "the big freeze" (if you're into astronomy, you may recognize this as the heat death of the universe) only for it to be revealed after his death that he was simply wrong about the end of all life and his quest fails at the hands of the "hero" (story's antagonist). it's meant to be a parody of crisis culture and terror propaganda.
Part of what makes Barrie’s story so mesmerizing, I think, is the ambiguity of it. This is particularly apparent in what he considers the true beginning of maturity: the first time a child is treated unfairly.
He stresses that this is the factor that makes Peter different from the other children, who are fully human and not just an isolated facet of humanity:
“No one ever gets over the first unfairness; no one except Peter. He often met it, but he always forgot it. I suppose that was the real difference between him and all the rest” (Peter Pan and Wendy).
It’s as if Peter keeps encountering the cruelty of the world, but because it never internalizes, he’s never able to comprehend his OWN cruelty.
Maybe that’s the ambiguity at the “heart” of growing up in Barrie’s world- if we want to do our best to be good and empathetic people in a beautiful and broken world, we have sacrifice the beauty of a perspective untouched by that brokenness- because both are already inside us.
One thing is that when Wendy mentions her parents (at least in the play) is to strengthen her story - not actually because she feels bad for leaving her parents. "WENDY (melting over the beauty of her present performance, but without any real qualms). Now I want you to consider the feelings of the unhappy parents with all their children flown away. Think, oh think, of the empty beds. (The heartless ones think of them with glee.)"
This is also true in the book
10:25 Reminds me of the many posts online about a man only learning empathy once they have a girlfriend or children. The current patriarchy encourages boys to remain childlike in regards to carelessness, empathy, sympathy. This is deemed "manly". But all grown up, I feel that only those fully acquainted with feeling empathy and responsibility are "true men".
J.M. Barrie's Peter Pan has been my favorite story always. There's so much to ponder in so little pages. ❤
Reminds me of a story in which a child is a very powerful reality bender. Wherever the child wanders, the world is changed. The ground becomes a soft quilt, plants turn to candy and sweets, stones turn into toys, rivers and lakes become milk, and the animals become docile pets, but people stay the same... mostly. The danger of this child is that, while he is not aware of his powers, like other children, he _hates_ to not get his way. And so if you chance to upset him, you will simply cease to exist, or lose all sense of will not tied to pleasing him, or be transformed into a plaything, or simply suffer a painful and agonizing death, whatever his whim is at the moment.
what is the story called?
the innocence of childhood - Lord of the Flies wants to have a word with you. that's Peter Pan without fairy dust
Thank you! Sometimes I wonder if the ability to grow up is part of what makes us human. Or maybe it is just part of what makes something more than an animal (if other beings exist with the ability). When I say grow up I mean question our impulses. Learn to put our more primal feelings aside and critically think of other ways to solve a situation. Though typing that out I wonder if some animals do have that ability. When one of my dogs died, the other cuddled into and comforted me. She could have been doing it to sooth herself, but I think she understood I was sad and might have needed that.
A really excellent glimpse into the themes and concepts of the book. Great work!
This reminds me of the Collector from the owl house, a child god, with pretty much unlimited power, and no idea of morals, pain or mortality. It's very interesting
Great video!❤
Peter Pan is one of my favourite stories, ever.
This video is extremely well made, with a few caveats:
I believe it’s really hard to properly gauge what JMB meant when writing Peter Pan about talking about his inspiration - the Llewelyn Davies family.
When considering the part they took in his life, it’s clear to me that he’s written about them and their adventures. From the fact that the names for both Captain Hook and Peter Pan originate from their playing together, to the fact that he ended up adopting them.
I’d write at a greater length, but to me Peter Pan isn’t just a story about childhood. It’s JMB’s experience as Peter Pan, forced to grow up
15:00 There are a lot of adults like Peter lol
I had never thought of it this way. We hear so much about protecting the innocence of children from emotionally stunted adults, and it always made no sense to me but now it makes perfect sense. They want to stop their children from outgrowing them.
Children make brave gestures inspired by bizarre misunderstandings, and then quite a lot of adults think they're kinder for it. Maybe the ends justify the means, but it's impossible to ignore that they're in those spots because they don't understand what they're actually doing. Push everyone you see, and maybe you might find you've pushed someone out of the way of a high speed collision. Later on we learn why we need to fear, for our own sakes as well as others, but sometimes bizarre circumstances require a bizarre mind. An adult might rationalize a way out of being involved, but a kid is going to take their best guess as gospel and do what might have made sense in the moment. Many good and bad things stem from this...
Sorry... I got here Two minutes later, i apologize on the Name of My country, for get late on another more masterpiece of this channel
Your forgiven.
Youre forgiven dont worry
The impression I formed reading the book was that Peter was a normal child living a normal life, and all the other characters existed within his dream. When he randomly disappeared, he was awake, and the dream went on without him.
Really, where did you get that impression?
Oh, my dear story bot.
Not all of us humans are born without hearts.
Not all of us want to go back to childhood.
Not all children are blood thirsty sociopaths.
Playing pretend is merely playing pretend.
There is no blood lust, there is no intent.
This isn't Sparta.
When some little boys would rip the legs off of baby toads, I was the little boy who was horrified.
When I found a visiting little boy annoying and I wanted him to leave me alone, I trapped him in my toy box, also me.
I did not harm for enjoyment.
Any harm I inflicted was out of anger, not malicious mischief.
I was the quiet kid who wanted to help. I was the quiet kid who liked being by himself. If that duality makes any sense at all.😄
Would never want to be a child again. The powerlessness. The tyranny of abusive and neglectful adults. The lies and the gaslighting. Nothing I did was ever good enough. Finally getting my fist bicycle at 12, only to be made to ride in a neat circle, going no where.
This "freedom of childhood ",
what is that?
Adulthood has far more freedom than I ever knew as a child.
I'm also mentally ill, and even in my hindered state, I know more freedom than my childhood self who was always seeking his mother's approval in vain, and wished every night for a dad.
Difference between you and the children who hurt animals. You knew it was causing suffering. Generally, the other children do not.
I was also the kid who would have been horrified and I was forced to grow up faster than my peers.
I don't think innocence should precursor the ability to help understand consequence, but I do think there is something to children allowed to be children going through the stages that actually makes them well... dumber, for lack of a better way to put it, but possibly healthier because they go through the stages and can forgive themselves for the things that admittedly the adults should have been keeping more of an eye on.
Childhood is only free if there are adults to facilitate it. Freedom is never free. So I definitely agree with you. Kids that don't have available, loving capable parents (economically, emotionally, physically) don't get childhoods in the way people think.
Imagine the worst person in the story being the only one who learns a lesson lol, I love this channel so much!🖤🖤
I have been saving up tale foundry videos for FOUR MONTHS and its been hell. everytime i get you on my feed and i break down in tears but i had to hold on so i could binge it all at once. as i type this i have a queue ready and whole bunch of chores to do as i listen. This is gonna be the most godly time of my life. thank you.
5:02 'Fond of variety, and the sport that engrossed him one moment would suddenly cease to engage him' dude just has adhd fr
I don’t ever want to return to my childhood. Always being beaten, always being screamed at, nothing I did made anyone happy. The only time anyone interacted with me is because a need had arisen in that person to torment me. Now that I am an adult, I am free from that and can now defend myself.
Reminded me of an episode of Digimon Ghost Game where Petermon kidnaps and brainwashes children to play with him forever in a pocket dimension, and if any of the kids even grow taller or try to act responsible, he attempts to kill them for "becoming a lying adult".
Wow, Digimon has actually made this kind of Peter Pan reference? I love the original Digimon Adventure and now ny respect towards the franchise grew even more!
Peter Pan and Wendy was and still is my favorite childhood book. And this is very insightful, I think that one thing that wasn't mentioned was that beloved Tinker Bell was even forgotten by Peter after she dies as "faeries do not live long", and that by not growing up Peter refuses to grow in wisdom as most people do. He seeks adventure even calling death a great adventure, but refuses to see how growing up is an adventure as well. This perspective of growing a heart is fantastic, and perhaps love forced him to grow a little wisdom though at his rate it could take a long time for him to truly grow. I don't remember where I was going with this, I just love hearing perspectives on my favorite childhood book. thank you.
This amazingly explains what Gon goes through in the chimera ant, Hunter x Hunter. When he kills Pitou mercilessly, Gon is just acting as a child would in these horrific conditions, not out of some hidden inner darkness as some people might believe.
“Lord of the flies” sums up the cruelty of children very well. I absolutely agree that empathy is something that needs to be taught. If it isn’t nurtured it will die off much like a (as you described) tiny seed. Seems we’re born narcissistic sociopaths and it’s through experiences and guidance that we learn things such as humility, introspection and the ability to acknowledge/care about the repercussions of our actions.
15:44 brilliant.
This was incredibly well done. Good job!
Vids not even done yet
Excellent. Very well done. Great, professional production. A joy to listen to.
Subscribed.
That part at the end with Wendy's mom hit me right in the feels.
Thank you for talking about Peter pan’s character development. Thank you for getting Disney peters age almost right. (He should be 16 since he was modeled after Bobby who was his voice actor and reference and he was 16 at the time ✨)
It reminds me of a line from Ace Attorney. "Regina is just like the animals she claims to tame. She's innocent, thus she can be cruel."
Underrated case
That case was sad for everybody
I'm glad some of her co-workers showed her the consequences of her actions. Some of the good people she got along with ruined their lives because of her ignorance.
1:33 The line read on this froze my blood, especially with the rest of the sound dropping out. What an intro!
"Yes Lost Boys, shoot down the Wendy-bird! Peter says you have to!" - Tinker Belle