At this point have a 10 game round to settle it against Hera. You go Drav every time. You pick 5 civs he uses and he picks 5 civs he uses. Kick. His. Ass. Vipey!
@@mubashirulmoula1798 English speakers can't into plurals of anything. Like how they believe "bicep" is a word because they assume it would be plural with the s. Or how they don't know it's "medium" and "criterion" for singulars.
I just assumed it had become a Tradition that whenever a GL member plays an AM member they must lose 1 game with Dravidians. You know, just to give them a chance?
Loving that Viper has not changed all these years from picking random civs to die on hills for. Now can't wait for Dravidians to be buffed in unexpected ways, I'm betting on wood magically giving food (we have the reverse with Portuguese).
Ghilman is plural of Ghulam in Arabic. I'm no expert but from what I know it was used to refer to slave warriors brought from other places. But it has another meaning for more recent times, particularly in Afghanistan, and it's better not to know it.
Dravidians do need a little something imho. I think that Medical Corps could use a buff. In addition to the regen effect, it should give monks a small healing speed boost as well. (Only to Elephants.) This way Medical Corps has more to offer, but it requires more micro to get the most out of it. Urumi need one more pierce armor. Same reason pretty much all infantry were given one extra pierce armor back in the AOC days. I don't feel like Dravidians are far off at all.
Viper has a winrate of less than 40% in S and A tier tournaments with only 3 out of 42 civs. Koreans (33%), Bengalis (25%) and Dravidians (14%). Only player with a positive tournament winrate as Dravidians is Daut. Everybody else have less than 40% winrate with them or never picked them. And this is including the maps like Northern Isles where they have a good winrate. By the way that gameplan vs Dravidians mentioned in the forums is the exact same thing Hera and Liereyy did against Viper in Grand Melee, NAC4 and KOTD. How is it just a low elo thing?
I feel like pros do this stuff all the time - talk about the game on “feel” when the statistics overwhelmingly support a different POV. I’m sure Viper is correct when he says “it’s not that simple”, but when the player trying to exploit Dravidians’ weaknesses is Hera then he’s not going to make as many mistakes with his pressure that allow you to get out of the situation
@@0oShwavyo0 This is a common fallacy, especially for high level professionals. "If everything is done perfectly it will work out" except it rarely does I jsut ahve to do it better. But the stats say that event he best of the best dont manage. It's a more extreme version of the Chinese Start that wrecks people under 1800 and is so good on 2400 Elo that it caused a nerf. except Dravidians have barely any upside.
@@0oShwavyo0 Exactly. And that thing about 200 extra wood and bonus on skirmishers, a dozen other civs get resource benefits equivalent or better than that. It's never 200 wood + faster shooting skirms against generic units and no eco bonus.
> "Only player with a positive tournament winrate as Dravidians is Daut" Case closed. We mere mortals can't simply comprehend the true power of Dravidians.
Man, what's the chance that the political/commentary channels overlap with AoE2 community. Nice seeing you here, you should stream AoE2 sometimes. PS, yeah drav ele archers are insanely good
I don't think it's that they want all civs to be the same, it's that they get thrown off by certain civs playing differently and end up losing the game. It was the same early on with Indians not getting knights, and even things like Malay faster age research.
I love seeing the character arc of Viper go from literally the AOE2 GOAT, to am overt fish boomer (that gets upset when the map gen/position disallows any fish booming) and more recently a mischief making scamp on Rage Forest 4v4s, to now being really passionate about Dravidians.
Spirit of the Law recently uploaded a video about the different Battle Elephants and it turns out that, with the imperial age unique tech, Dravidian's elephantos are a weaker but still functional version of leitis that does surprisingly decent against high armor enemies. Are they still bad? Yes, of course, the tech also works with your already good infantry so no point in wasting food and gold in that poor excuse of a stable unit. But you can still use them sometimes I guess if you have resources to burn.
I love your mental structure, I love that the best player in the the world, one of the few actual ''pro'' players loves diver civs and want more diverse , imaginative traits/structure.
Dravidians are unpopular because they force you to make a combination of elephants and infantry, when the meta is, and has been for a long time, knights and archers. People still are not use to infantry rush backed up by elephants. Most low to mid elo players are use to the same boring archer and knight rushes. Bengalis have the same situation but with them the eco upgrades are really good, and a monk rush is extremely viable.
Indeed, raw power of elephant archers is impressive, especially if you rotate low hp ones behind full hp ones, they can even decently trade with skirmishers and once they hit decent numbers and regeneration then rotating injured ones in back can keep them up indefinitely, hell they can take even few onager shots to face, survive and regen in back line. For late game their champions with wootz steel are also formidable. But its also true that faction as a whole is kind of slow, husbandry would help them a lot.
If knights are a problem in castle age then why not stay on archers for xbows? If them making skirmishers in feudal is a problem then why not bring them home and wall up? its not like skirmishers are known for rushing down walls. Hit castle age and make a siege workshop and monastery. Or workshop and university. You get 200 wood and cheaper siege. Your workshop is free. Use xbows and monks to kill knights and lightcav. Us siege to flatten then skirms. Upon Imperial age you already have the techs for switching to Elephant Archers. I can understand not making Medical Corps too strong because its one of those things that can get out of control but I think health regen effects tend to be very under whelming in age by the nature of how fights happen. They aren't huge skirmishers where units are in a series of 1v1 fights. You generally have 40 units targeting 1 unit. And so if the regen isn't seemingly broken it doesn't exist. Effectively if it wouldn't force an extra attack or two from a counter unit then its kind of bad. I think that this is part of the reason why they don't get the stable techs for their cav archers but honestly I think it doesn't make a difference if they get burst down. They would be better off with an HP or defense buff in such a case. And since their lack of anything stable is likely due to Medical Corps and not wanting elephants to be too powerful this also makes their Siege Elephants by far the weakest of all the civs who have the unit due to lacking every upgrade which can effect them. The only two bonuses they get are their two unique techs which don't actually give them any noticeable bonus. Honestly make Medical Corps different in some way to justify giving them stable bonuses. Or simply remove the bonus and make it something else. Such as something that will work to help improve their infantry, siege or naval play. Allow them to have full or near full Archery and Elephant Archer tech for play along that line but why not also help to improve their other aspects that seem to be pushed? That I think is part of the problem with Dravidians. Its like the Devs want them to do most everything but none of it well.
People complaining about the weak dravidian stable yet forget they have almost full technology tree or full technology tree for sure in the following buildings: Archery range (only miss parthian tactics), barracks gets fully upgraded, dock is fully upgraded, siege workshop (miss siege engineers at university), and they have regular keep and bombard tower available (no architecture or treadmill crane). Play Rajendra #3 to fully try the civilization, also play #5 too. The rajendra campaign is tough but playable. Also try the first and second scenarios to try the castle age units too. #4 is that annoying no villagers and town center allowed scenario and should probably be looked into as the player never gets to hold on to any town while a wonder countdown is happening and your troops are limited without much resources available to increase numbers or research more than a few upgrades.
I don't get the hate about Medical Corps. Why do people expect it to fully heal the Elephants? The upgrade barely costs anything. If it just said +30 max hp, which would be much worse, people wouldn't complain.
30+ HP is a immediate advantage on survivability, that's why bloodlines tech is important Think of it like this: you click on the tech to be researched, you wait on it instead of researching a better tech (like Conscription) or making your UU, and the moment it's finished researching you also need to wait for it to kick in, all in while if you just make your UU immideatly there'd be a higher odds of your Elephant-variant unit to survive rather than microing them for the regen to slowly heal them
How often are you able to let your unit go chill somewhere for 1 minute, much less 10? In practice I think the only real benefit will be those random situations where a unit gets the regen on a tick where they would have died and gets to live to do another attack. A good opponent is not going to give you enough time to rest to regain a meaningful amount of HP. It’s also a bit bizarre that elephants have much more HP than berserks but get a worse regen bonus which requires a tech research to unlock.
@@0oShwavyo0 Because Berserks are front-line units with low hp that most often die in a matter of seconds, while Elephant Archer battles can drag on for minutes. It's also the unique ability of Berserks, while it's just an upgrade for Dravidians. If a civ ever gets a charge attack on Paladins, it better not be as strong as the Coustillier charge attack. "How often are you able to let your unit go chill somewhere for 1 minute, much less 10?" Why on earth would you have to chill for 10 minutes? If the upgrade regenerates ~30-50 hp for each Elephant on average, it'll be worth it. You don't have to chill for minutes for that to happen. You just play the game. Elephant Archers don't die immediately after taking damage for the first time.
@@TheNethertyp berserks regeneration suffers from the same issue, but the value of Hp regen you get as a percentage of health is much larger, meaning that the “additional resources” you get from each Berser is relatively higher. If a berserk regens for 1 min and heals 40Hp that is ~ 60% of a new unit or about 60 resources worth, whereas an elephant healing for 1 min gets 30hp or ~13% of a new unit which is about 18 resources. So it’s about 3x less valuable in terms how many fewer resources you might expect to spend replacing units. On top of that berserks regen for free whereas ele archers need a tech, so to make up the value of the tech from healing you would need about 28 mins of healing (across all units, so 28 ele archers healed for 1 minute would work). So 28 mins of regen to break even for Dravidian ele archers, compared to Vikings who have “earned” ~15 new units with the savings from regeneration in that amount of time. Mathematically it’s a lot worse for ele archers.
@@TheNethertyp just to touch on your “it’s worth it if each one regens 30hp” - you need to make ~30 ele archers plus the tech and keep them alive for at least 1 whole minute after their first engagement for that to be true. So as dravidians you need to make it to castle age, get a castle, save for the UT, AND produce 30 ele archers before dying, just to break even on the tech. That doesn’t sound like a good strat to me, but to each their own 🤷♂️
Nice but you should explain how to counter Skirm+Knight+Mangonel so that the main complaint is addressed. (I guess the answer is just MAA+Pikes but we'll see.)
I think the answer is rather Castle defense into UU plus siege. If you can take out the siege with your own, I think Urumi swordsman with upgrades would take out the rest.
only way to settle this. viper and hera to play a "friendly" Bo5/7/9/11. viper picks map and dravidians. hera picks any other civ he wants on that map. then hera pics map and his civ other than dravidians. viper picks dravidians. repeat, till we have winner. if viper wins, tournament will be called "king of the dravidians". if hera wins, tournament will be called "killer of the dravidians". we will have KOTD either way ;-)
I think dravidians need just two things: 7% discount on medical corps and 35-40% healing speed increase, cause this tech is relatively unpopular for obvious reasons. Also not lacking every cav blacksmith upgrade would be cool.
I am a viper fanboy. I agree with him on everything but not on this. Dravidans needs a buff. It really needs a faster unit like urumi swordsman on a horse and elite upgrade for the thirisadai.
Surprisingly, the win rate of Dravidians for lower elo play (850-1000) is the highest at 51.92%, and the most skillful players 1900+ elo have the lowest win rate of all elo grounp of 46.29%. And Viper has 56.3% win rate while playing as Dravidians, which really isn't high compared to other civs. But he also has a whooping 83.3% win rate playing against Dravidians, which is the 2nd highest of all. And the frist place is Romans which Viper only played against twice. The conclusion is, Viper is so good playing against Dravidians brought down the win rate in highest elo group, and also makes other pro players feel it is a bad civ.
I think dravidians has one of the most intriguing stable units thanks to wootz steel. Ignoring armor is big deal vs gold cost unit. Their light cav can deal significant damage to Teutonic knights, boyars or serjants. They also have the best battle elephants vs heavily armored units. I wouldn’t say they are bad. There are always compromises in balancing civ.
The major issue with their stable units is that they're mediocre against anything that isn't a high armor specialist unit (the majority of units ingame). They could probably get some very small buffs to their stables since the developers decided to even make wootz steel affect their units, just so they could at least be more viable in some other matchups.
My highest winrate of all civs is Dravidians at 72% (13 wins out of 18). Couldn't tell you how I've played them. Maybe sometimes the best gameplan is none at all.
Seriously though, Dravidians are extremely underpowered. Their UU is fine (nothing special, a bit gimmicky, good in some situations) but the civ really isn't strong, objectively. Their win rates suck.
I mean can they at least give them a bit more stable armor/redemption/faster UU/1+ pierce armor on UU? Sure, I get how they can be viable on a good map with battles in mid. But if you get a shit map they won’t ever work. They don’t have to be needlessly extra bad just to be different. Cmon toss em a bone devs!
I love how the game now has this 'nerf this nerf that' mentality, driving all civs to the same play style. Could you imajjjin mezos being released in current time? No KnIgHtS???!! Keep the variety, keep the identity.
I don’t think anyone would have a problem with mezo civs releasing today because eagles play similar enough to knights that it’s not hard to figure out how to use them. It’s basically just a different counter unit to watch out for, otherwise you can basically use eagles for everything you use knights for and vice versa (counter archers, counter skirms, counter siege, raiding, using mobility to take map control, etc). Nobody complains about gurjaras and hindustanis not having knights, because they still have strong mobile units to fill the same niche. With Dravidians it’s that they force a totally different play style where neither mobility or range available. Take Malay by comparison - hardly any stable to speak of, but they have excellent arbs which can abuse their range to take map control once they’ve been massed. Ele archers are much worse at this because they are slower units, and they take so much bonus damage that it’s very easy to switch into a counter before your opponent can do meaningful damage with ele archers. So I don’t think it’s really a lack of knights that is the problem, but a lack of mobility. However, because the knight is the most popular high mobility unit, that’s what we see players clamoring to add.
people who hate on dravidians never felt the satisfaction of sitting with elephant archers under TC fire like it's nothing. Oh yeah? You're gonna hide your vills? I'm gonna idle your economy for the rest of the game lmao
I guess it comes down to the ELO of the players as to what each considers a good or bad civ (or unit etc), as you also stated. The problem that comes with that though is what are the devs are going to do to keep everyone happy. Well they cannot keep everyone happy, and for sure the high ELO and those that are on the tournaments are the poster boys of the game and their gameplay counts, , but they would neither want to make some cis unplayable for the lower ELO players. so there must be a balance somewhere in there.
But are civs ever unplayable at low elo? I would say no because your skill is much more important than a slight winrate variance that is affected by the civ you pick
@@dj_koen1265 but skill in lower ELO is what differentiates the civs ability to win. My guess is this is why some civs are favored by the higher level players. Lower level players cannot make use of the advantages the civs provide because their skill cannot match it.
Urumis are fine. They are meant to be a sort of glass canon. Maybe make them a bit faster, they have no base pierce armor compared to other speedy UU like Woad Riders, Berserks, Ghulam or Eagles. I think "Wootz Steel" unique tech should be in the castle age instead at a lower cost, in order to make infrantry and their weak cavalry more of a meanace early on. Then "Medical Corps" should have a stronger effect as the imperial age unique tech (and of course, a greater cost), healing elephant archers and siege elephant +40 HP per minute and battle elephants up to +80 HP per minute (halbs are going to melt them either way). Also, another way to buff their cavalry could be giving them a civ bonus like: "Barrack upgrades affect cavalry". So you'd get light cav and battle elephants affected by Arson, Squires, Supplies and Gambesons. However, none of these bonuses would have any effect on elephant archers or siege elephants. Of course, that would mean this bonus would replace the 50% cheaper upgrades.
I think the best thing is actually making their battle elephant cheaper maybe give them a UT that turns the battle elephant cost X amount or maybe give them a attack boost or some P. Armor so they are more of a damage sponge with woodsteeel those are suddenly a viable unit, another approach can be actually making medical corps more useful by making the regen fast dravidian elephant hit hard but die fast but while it has less hp the gen gives you far less than even berber camel bonus
@@mubashirulmoula1798 they are already a glass Canon might as well make them cheaper so yah making their gold cost cheaper gives them a alternative approach to malay elephants and actually making them a viable unit
The idea behind giving Medical Corps bonus LOS is that it would go IN ADDITION TO the health regen, to help them be more resistant to monks and have more immediate value!
Personally, I take Hera's more "volatile" takes with an extra grain of salt because he has a tendency to be contrarian. I don't know if it's for content or an ego thing or whatever, it's just how he always has been and that's okay because not everyone is perfect.
Not sure if you saw the stats posted in other comments, but Viper has a 14% win rate with dravidians in tourneys, so if anyone is being a contrarian here it is Viper
I think it’s only really the Dravidian ele archers that need help, so it might make others broken to apply the upgrade universally. Plus thematically I don’t think it makes much sense - you’re probably not getting up to fight after the tower you’re standing in on top of an elephant falls over during battle.
I think a 1900 elo Player who can pick his civ all the time would win atleast 2 games in a Bo10 against a pro who can only play Dravidians. (on arab) change my mind
MBL won games against 1900 playing with only one hand, no hotkeys, only mouse, deleting starting vils and so on and you think he would struggle by playing a mediocre civ on arabai?
Guys, as others have mentioned, only ONE pro has a positive win rate with dravidians in high level tourneys. So you’re suggesting that the Viper would go from a 14% win rate to over 80%? I get that 1900 is considerably worse than a-tier tourney participants, but we should also acknowledge how poorly dravidians perform in competitive play.
At this point have a 10 game round to settle it against Hera. You go Drav every time. You pick 5 civs he uses and he picks 5 civs he uses. Kick. His. Ass. Vipey!
cool idea, or hera just has to go random civ
@@LordVilmore Hera must go full Burmese. Burmese are to Hera what Dravidians are to Viper 11
YES! Make. This. Happen! :D
@@ar1sm70 Burmese have been the best civ since they were added, everyone else is just wrong.
@@ar1sm70😅
Ghilman is the new myth unit made from the dock. they can breathe underwater
Ghilman is plural of Ghulam.
Countered by fishing ships with ghilnets unfortunately 😂
Comedy?
are you komedy me!?
@@mubashirulmoula1798 English speakers can't into plurals of anything.
Like how they believe "bicep" is a word because they assume it would be plural with the s. Or how they don't know it's "medium" and "criterion" for singulars.
omg stop exposing my burner accounts
lol
11
How many burners did you make, Hera? 1111
I'm one of Hera's burner account on this topic.
LMAO
Current Age Meta: Make a shitpost about Dravidians, get featured in an inception of reaction videos by the top 2 pros.
I agree that they shouldn't give them knights; we are already overwhelmed by seeing knights or archers in every single game. We need more variations.
nope, they should give everyone knights and bloodlines so that we can get the player base to finally riot and ask for a less stale meta
All uu should be 20% cheaper to encourage variety
A less stable meta?
I'll see myself out
How about urumi swordsman on a horse
They should get bicycles
In 1 year they receive a major buff like khmer and Portuguese did and then viper gets a bigger smile then jordan in his face 11
Viper shall then be known as Dravidian
That time when "Dravidians are terrible" is more triggering than "T90 is a genius" :P
I just assumed it had become a Tradition that whenever a GL member plays an AM member they must lose 1 game with Dravidians.
You know, just to give them a chance?
"Babe, wake up. The new episode of the Dravidians drama just dropped."
TheViper keeps saying "medical corpse." Metal.
Loving that Viper has not changed all these years from picking random civs to die on hills for. Now can't wait for Dravidians to be buffed in unexpected ways, I'm betting on wood magically giving food (we have the reverse with Portuguese).
Ghilman is plural of Ghulam in Arabic. I'm no expert but from what I know it was used to refer to slave warriors brought from other places. But it has another meaning for more recent times, particularly in Afghanistan, and it's better not to know it.
An elephant is much taller than a horse, so elephant archers should have longer range than all other archers. It only makes sense.
Dravidians do need a little something imho.
I think that Medical Corps could use a buff.
In addition to the regen effect, it should give monks a small healing speed boost as well. (Only to Elephants.)
This way Medical Corps has more to offer, but it requires more micro to get the most out of it.
Urumi need one more pierce armor. Same reason pretty much all infantry were given one extra pierce armor back in the AOC days.
I don't feel like Dravidians are far off at all.
Make Medical Corps apply to all their non siege Military units
Viper has a winrate of less than 40% in S and A tier tournaments with only 3 out of 42 civs. Koreans (33%), Bengalis (25%) and Dravidians (14%). Only player with a positive tournament winrate as Dravidians is Daut. Everybody else have less than 40% winrate with them or never picked them. And this is including the maps like Northern Isles where they have a good winrate.
By the way that gameplan vs Dravidians mentioned in the forums is the exact same thing Hera and Liereyy did against Viper in Grand Melee, NAC4 and KOTD. How is it just a low elo thing?
I feel like pros do this stuff all the time - talk about the game on “feel” when the statistics overwhelmingly support a different POV. I’m sure Viper is correct when he says “it’s not that simple”, but when the player trying to exploit Dravidians’ weaknesses is Hera then he’s not going to make as many mistakes with his pressure that allow you to get out of the situation
@@0oShwavyo0 This is a common fallacy, especially for high level professionals. "If everything is done perfectly it will work out" except it rarely does I jsut ahve to do it better. But the stats say that event he best of the best dont manage. It's a more extreme version of the Chinese Start that wrecks people under 1800 and is so good on 2400 Elo that it caused a nerf. except Dravidians have barely any upside.
@@0oShwavyo0 Exactly. And that thing about 200 extra wood and bonus on skirmishers, a dozen other civs get resource benefits equivalent or better than that. It's never 200 wood + faster shooting skirms against generic units and no eco bonus.
> "Only player with a positive tournament winrate as Dravidians is Daut"
Case closed. We mere mortals can't simply comprehend the true power of Dravidians.
Daut best player confirmed.
Come on Viper, make Dravidians your main civ, come up with a unique strat that only works for them and make them justice, Hoang style
Dravidians are the new Khmers : in a few patch, they'll be top tier and Viper will have the last laugh
it's reached the point Viper has invested too much in Dravidian's defense... he cant back down now 11. Pride goeth before thy fall sir Snek
Dravidian elephant archer are cracked. It literally shoots as fast as a mangadai. Those things are busted and the go to late game unit.
Man, what's the chance that the political/commentary channels overlap with AoE2 community. Nice seeing you here, you should stream AoE2 sometimes.
PS, yeah drav ele archers are insanely good
Different ways to play = FUN. I will never understand those in the community who just want all the civs to be the same, or more similar.
I don't think it's that they want all civs to be the same, it's that they get thrown off by certain civs playing differently and end up losing the game. It was the same early on with Indians not getting knights, and even things like Malay faster age research.
The hidden fact of the poll is that many players haven't brought the Dynasties of India DLC, so they just do not care about Dravidians.
I love seeing the character arc of Viper go from literally the AOE2 GOAT, to am overt fish boomer (that gets upset when the map gen/position disallows any fish booming) and more recently a mischief making scamp on Rage Forest 4v4s, to now being really passionate about Dravidians.
he’s still goat .. probably always will be .. but yeah it’s refreshing to see him go so hard to meme..
Spirit of the Law recently uploaded a video about the different Battle Elephants and it turns out that, with the imperial age unique tech, Dravidian's elephantos are a weaker but still functional version of leitis that does surprisingly decent against high armor enemies. Are they still bad? Yes, of course, the tech also works with your already good infantry so no point in wasting food and gold in that poor excuse of a stable unit. But you can still use them sometimes I guess if you have resources to burn.
Need a Bo21 King of the Dravidians showmatch
I love your mental structure, I love that the best player in the the world, one of the few actual ''pro'' players loves diver civs and want more diverse , imaginative traits/structure.
Dravidians are unpopular because they force you to make a combination of elephants and infantry, when the meta is, and has been for a long time, knights and archers. People still are not use to infantry rush backed up by elephants. Most low to mid elo players are use to the same boring archer and knight rushes. Bengalis have the same situation but with them the eco upgrades are really good, and a monk rush is extremely viable.
They're just....so.....slow. That's their problem. They can't avoid engagements.
They mad 'cuz bad. Skill issue.
Indeed, raw power of elephant archers is impressive, especially if you rotate low hp ones behind full hp ones, they can even decently trade with skirmishers and once they hit decent numbers and regeneration then rotating injured ones in back can keep them up indefinitely, hell they can take even few onager shots to face, survive and regen in back line.
For late game their champions with wootz steel are also formidable.
But its also true that faction as a whole is kind of slow, husbandry would help them a lot.
Medical corps should actually create a healing zone around elephants like Celtic castles? Argues?
Ha ha I told you all. Dravidians are getting buff.🎉🎉
0:57 i think what he saying is the Indian UU, the one with high range defense fast foot unit
If knights are a problem in castle age then why not stay on archers for xbows? If them making skirmishers in feudal is a problem then why not bring them home and wall up? its not like skirmishers are known for rushing down walls. Hit castle age and make a siege workshop and monastery. Or workshop and university. You get 200 wood and cheaper siege. Your workshop is free. Use xbows and monks to kill knights and lightcav. Us siege to flatten then skirms. Upon Imperial age you already have the techs for switching to Elephant Archers.
I can understand not making Medical Corps too strong because its one of those things that can get out of control but I think health regen effects tend to be very under whelming in age by the nature of how fights happen. They aren't huge skirmishers where units are in a series of 1v1 fights. You generally have 40 units targeting 1 unit. And so if the regen isn't seemingly broken it doesn't exist. Effectively if it wouldn't force an extra attack or two from a counter unit then its kind of bad. I think that this is part of the reason why they don't get the stable techs for their cav archers but honestly I think it doesn't make a difference if they get burst down. They would be better off with an HP or defense buff in such a case.
And since their lack of anything stable is likely due to Medical Corps and not wanting elephants to be too powerful this also makes their Siege Elephants by far the weakest of all the civs who have the unit due to lacking every upgrade which can effect them. The only two bonuses they get are their two unique techs which don't actually give them any noticeable bonus.
Honestly make Medical Corps different in some way to justify giving them stable bonuses. Or simply remove the bonus and make it something else. Such as something that will work to help improve their infantry, siege or naval play. Allow them to have full or near full Archery and Elephant Archer tech for play along that line but why not also help to improve their other aspects that seem to be pushed?
That I think is part of the problem with Dravidians. Its like the Devs want them to do most everything but none of it well.
People complaining about the weak dravidian stable yet forget they have almost full technology tree or full technology tree for sure in the following buildings: Archery range (only miss parthian tactics), barracks gets fully upgraded, dock is fully upgraded, siege workshop (miss siege engineers at university), and they have regular keep and bombard tower available (no architecture or treadmill crane).
Play Rajendra #3 to fully try the civilization, also play #5 too. The rajendra campaign is tough but playable. Also try the first and second scenarios to try the castle age units too. #4 is that annoying no villagers and town center allowed scenario and should probably be looked into as the player never gets to hold on to any town while a wonder countdown is happening and your troops are limited without much resources available to increase numbers or research more than a few upgrades.
Dravidians aren't bad they just have the highest skill ceiling to use
I agree with you, Dravidians make you play with a different strategy... you dont have knights to quick attack, you have to think in something else
I feel medical corps should affect light cav as well. Just enough to give them bloodlines and snipe monks and maybe Seige. And give them husbandry.
Honestly the poll breakdown was interesting to see, you should do more content with those and make the questions fewer and more concise.
I don't get the hate about Medical Corps. Why do people expect it to fully heal the Elephants? The upgrade barely costs anything. If it just said +30 max hp, which would be much worse, people wouldn't complain.
30+ HP is a immediate advantage on survivability, that's why bloodlines tech is important
Think of it like this: you click on the tech to be researched, you wait on it instead of researching a better tech (like Conscription) or making your UU, and the moment it's finished researching you also need to wait for it to kick in, all in while if you just make your UU immideatly there'd be a higher odds of your Elephant-variant unit to survive rather than microing them for the regen to slowly heal them
How often are you able to let your unit go chill somewhere for 1 minute, much less 10? In practice I think the only real benefit will be those random situations where a unit gets the regen on a tick where they would have died and gets to live to do another attack. A good opponent is not going to give you enough time to rest to regain a meaningful amount of HP. It’s also a bit bizarre that elephants have much more HP than berserks but get a worse regen bonus which requires a tech research to unlock.
@@0oShwavyo0 Because Berserks are front-line units with low hp that most often die in a matter of seconds, while Elephant Archer battles can drag on for minutes. It's also the unique ability of Berserks, while it's just an upgrade for Dravidians. If a civ ever gets a charge attack on Paladins, it better not be as strong as the Coustillier charge attack.
"How often are you able to let your unit go chill somewhere for 1 minute, much less 10?"
Why on earth would you have to chill for 10 minutes? If the upgrade regenerates ~30-50 hp for each Elephant on average, it'll be worth it. You don't have to chill for minutes for that to happen. You just play the game. Elephant Archers don't die immediately after taking damage for the first time.
@@TheNethertyp berserks regeneration suffers from the same issue, but the value of Hp regen you get as a percentage of health is much larger, meaning that the “additional resources” you get from each Berser is relatively higher. If a berserk regens for 1 min and heals 40Hp that is ~ 60% of a new unit or about 60 resources worth, whereas an elephant healing for 1 min gets 30hp or ~13% of a new unit which is about 18 resources. So it’s about 3x less valuable in terms how many fewer resources you might expect to spend replacing units. On top of that berserks regen for free whereas ele archers need a tech, so to make up the value of the tech from healing you would need about 28 mins of healing (across all units, so 28 ele archers healed for 1 minute would work). So 28 mins of regen to break even for Dravidian ele archers, compared to Vikings who have “earned” ~15 new units with the savings from regeneration in that amount of time. Mathematically it’s a lot worse for ele archers.
@@TheNethertyp just to touch on your “it’s worth it if each one regens 30hp” - you need to make ~30 ele archers plus the tech and keep them alive for at least 1 whole minute after their first engagement for that to be true. So as dravidians you need to make it to castle age, get a castle, save for the UT, AND produce 30 ele archers before dying, just to break even on the tech. That doesn’t sound like a good strat to me, but to each their own 🤷♂️
I would even get a unique tech for dravidians that is plain husbandry before medical corps
Nice but you should explain how to counter Skirm+Knight+Mangonel so that the main complaint is addressed. (I guess the answer is just MAA+Pikes but we'll see.)
I think the answer is rather Castle defense into UU plus siege. If you can take out the siege with your own, I think Urumi swordsman with upgrades would take out the rest.
only way to settle this. viper and hera to play a "friendly" Bo5/7/9/11.
viper picks map and dravidians. hera picks any other civ he wants on that map.
then hera pics map and his civ other than dravidians. viper picks dravidians.
repeat, till we have winner.
if viper wins, tournament will be called "king of the dravidians".
if hera wins, tournament will be called "killer of the dravidians".
we will have KOTD either way ;-)
And you thought Alcatraz would break him. Its the Dravidians ;)
I think dravidians need just two things: 7% discount on medical corps and 35-40% healing speed increase, cause this tech is relatively unpopular for obvious reasons. Also not lacking every cav blacksmith upgrade would be cool.
Give them free bloodlines
Being Dravidian myself, it really sucks playing as it.
Give the Urumi a horse. Two birds with one stone :D
Indians used heavy cavalry, so at least one of them should get knights
They should make the HP regen free kinda like what they did with Vikings and their replacement tech should increase elephant speed or something.
I am a viper fanboy. I agree with him on everything but not on this.
Dravidans needs a buff. It really needs a faster unit like urumi swordsman on a horse and elite upgrade for the thirisadai.
dravs should be reworked
IMHO Dravidians should get a cheaper castle, like Incas or Franks do. It would help so much in massing Urumis
Surprisingly, the win rate of Dravidians for lower elo play (850-1000) is the highest at 51.92%, and the most skillful players 1900+ elo have the lowest win rate of all elo grounp of 46.29%.
And Viper has 56.3% win rate while playing as Dravidians, which really isn't high compared to other civs. But he also has a whooping 83.3% win rate playing against Dravidians, which is the 2nd highest of all. And the frist place is Romans which Viper only played against twice.
The conclusion is, Viper is so good playing against Dravidians brought down the win rate in highest elo group, and also makes other pro players feel it is a bad civ.
Please buy curtains for that window bye
I think dravidians has one of the most intriguing stable units thanks to wootz steel. Ignoring armor is big deal vs gold cost unit. Their light cav can deal significant damage to Teutonic knights, boyars or serjants. They also have the best battle elephants vs heavily armored units. I wouldn’t say they are bad. There are always compromises in balancing civ.
The major issue with their stable units is that they're mediocre against anything that isn't a high armor specialist unit (the majority of units ingame). They could probably get some very small buffs to their stables since the developers decided to even make wootz steel affect their units, just so they could at least be more viable in some other matchups.
how often do you see those UUs though?
outside of tgs its probably 1 in 100. those arent popular 1v1 civs and they have better strats vs dravids
BO21 with Dravidians against Hera, when???
Lmao, love this
You should get an honorary citizienship in Dravidia!
That requires Dravidia become an independent state from India. I guess we need to wait.
@@mubashirulmoula1798 If they fight like in AoE II, it will be pretty easy!
Hold on there are more people making scouts than those that make stables, something doesn’t add up here
My highest winrate of all civs is Dravidians at 72% (13 wins out of 18). Couldn't tell you how I've played them. Maybe sometimes the best gameplan is none at all.
Seriously though, Dravidians are extremely underpowered. Their UU is fine (nothing special, a bit gimmicky, good in some situations) but the civ really isn't strong, objectively. Their win rates suck.
Memb and Hera created this topic
I mean can they at least give them a bit more stable armor/redemption/faster UU/1+ pierce armor on UU?
Sure, I get how they can be viable on a good map with battles in mid. But if you get a shit map they won’t ever work.
They don’t have to be needlessly extra bad just to be different. Cmon toss em a bone devs!
Dravidians are great, I have overwhelmingly positive winrate with them. 1,4k elo. But, most of all, *they are fun*! I am really glad we have them.
Daut put out a video regarding this matter, maybe Vipi and Hera should take a look at what The Lord hath to say
I love how the game now has this 'nerf this nerf that' mentality, driving all civs to the same play style. Could you imajjjin mezos being released in current time? No KnIgHtS???!! Keep the variety, keep the identity.
I don’t think anyone would have a problem with mezo civs releasing today because eagles play similar enough to knights that it’s not hard to figure out how to use them. It’s basically just a different counter unit to watch out for, otherwise you can basically use eagles for everything you use knights for and vice versa (counter archers, counter skirms, counter siege, raiding, using mobility to take map control, etc).
Nobody complains about gurjaras and hindustanis not having knights, because they still have strong mobile units to fill the same niche. With Dravidians it’s that they force a totally different play style where neither mobility or range available. Take Malay by comparison - hardly any stable to speak of, but they have excellent arbs which can abuse their range to take map control once they’ve been massed. Ele archers are much worse at this because they are slower units, and they take so much bonus damage that it’s very easy to switch into a counter before your opponent can do meaningful damage with ele archers.
So I don’t think it’s really a lack of knights that is the problem, but a lack of mobility. However, because the knight is the most popular high mobility unit, that’s what we see players clamoring to add.
The link below the "Dravidians are terrible" discussion says "T90 is a genius". Try explaining that one Snek !? 😜
I love T90 btw 😊
people who hate on dravidians never felt the satisfaction of sitting with elephant archers under TC fire like it's nothing. Oh yeah? You're gonna hide your vills? I'm gonna idle your economy for the rest of the game lmao
i like me some ghulman
You dont need to say the P in Medical Corps. Medical Cores is how its often said. Either works though
I guess it comes down to the ELO of the players as to what each considers a good or bad civ (or unit etc), as you also stated.
The problem that comes with that though is what are the devs are going to do to keep everyone happy. Well they cannot keep everyone happy, and for sure the high ELO and those that are on the tournaments are the poster boys of the game and their gameplay counts, , but they would neither want to make some cis unplayable for the lower ELO players. so there must be a balance somewhere in there.
But are civs ever unplayable at low elo? I would say no because your skill is much more important than a slight winrate variance that is affected by the civ you pick
@@dj_koen1265 but skill in lower ELO is what differentiates the civs ability to win. My guess is this is why some civs are favored by the higher level players.
Lower level players cannot make use of the advantages the civs provide because their skill cannot match it.
Show em
love these vids
Urumis are fine. They are meant to be a sort of glass canon. Maybe make them a bit faster, they have no base pierce armor compared to other speedy UU like Woad Riders, Berserks, Ghulam or Eagles.
I think "Wootz Steel" unique tech should be in the castle age instead at a lower cost, in order to make infrantry and their weak cavalry more of a meanace early on. Then "Medical Corps" should have a stronger effect as the imperial age unique tech (and of course, a greater cost), healing elephant archers and siege elephant +40 HP per minute and battle elephants up to +80 HP per minute (halbs are going to melt them either way).
Also, another way to buff their cavalry could be giving them a civ bonus like: "Barrack upgrades affect cavalry". So you'd get light cav and battle elephants affected by Arson, Squires, Supplies and Gambesons. However, none of these bonuses would have any effect on elephant archers or siege elephants. Of course, that would mean this bonus would replace the 50% cheaper upgrades.
we all know all of that forum is made of hera and his followers , all of it is paid actors ! 😂😂
Dravidians are not terrible!
Viper is just bad at using them.
Time to make a smurf acct and play Dravidians only (:
I think the best thing is actually making their battle elephant cheaper maybe give them a UT that turns the battle elephant cost X amount or maybe give them a attack boost or some P. Armor so they are more of a damage sponge with woodsteeel those are suddenly a viable unit, another approach can be actually making medical corps more useful by making the regen fast dravidian elephant hit hard but die fast but while it has less hp the gen gives you far less than even berber camel bonus
I also think a BE version of "Szlachta Privileges" will be really good.
@@mubashirulmoula1798 they are already a glass Canon might as well make them cheaper so yah making their gold cost cheaper gives them a alternative approach to malay elephants and actually making them a viable unit
Vipey please stop picking dravidians in big matches. I wanna see you back on top
The idea behind giving Medical Corps bonus LOS is that it would go IN ADDITION TO the health regen, to help them be more resistant to monks and have more immediate value!
Good content!
5+ years without curtains, I can't take your love for dravidians seriously anymore!
Real men use sheets for curtains
Personally, I take Hera's more "volatile" takes with an extra grain of salt because he has a tendency to be contrarian. I don't know if it's for content or an ego thing or whatever, it's just how he always has been and that's okay because not everyone is perfect.
Not sure if you saw the stats posted in other comments, but Viper has a 14% win rate with dravidians in tourneys, so if anyone is being a contrarian here it is Viper
@@0oShwavyo0Sample size of S tier tournaments is probably way too small to draw any meaningful conclusions.
@@DM-rc4yu right, so we’ll just use 0 data to make our conclusion instead
Viper the tournaments result says otherwise. Stats is all that matter
How about changing Elephant Archers so they get a dismounted archer/arbalester or similar when they die?
I think it’s only really the Dravidian ele archers that need help, so it might make others broken to apply the upgrade universally. Plus thematically I don’t think it makes much sense - you’re probably not getting up to fight after the tower you’re standing in on top of an elephant falls over during battle.
It is kind of staggering how many people in this comments section think they know the game better than TheViper because they can quote statistics.
If top players lose with Dravidians, then Dravidians are bad. No matter how good you are, that's inarguable.
Dravidians are terrible! Pick Japanese in AOE4, instead. ;)
I think a 1900 elo Player who can pick his civ all the time would win atleast 2 games in a Bo10 against a pro who can only play Dravidians. (on arab)
change my mind
Absolutely not. And no 1900 would think that.
I am 2k1 and that is blatantly wrong
Become 1900 elo and play against a pro, you'll change your mind, no matter the match up you will loose by a lot every time
MBL won games against 1900 playing with only one hand, no hotkeys, only mouse, deleting starting vils and so on and you think he would struggle by playing a mediocre civ on arabai?
Guys, as others have mentioned, only ONE pro has a positive win rate with dravidians in high level tourneys. So you’re suggesting that the Viper would go from a 14% win rate to over 80%? I get that 1900 is considerably worse than a-tier tourney participants, but we should also acknowledge how poorly dravidians perform in competitive play.
First
has to be worth something, if you can get viper to roll on the floor laughing
3:00 hera has 10 accounts🤣