Although Dior succeeds in what neither the Teleri nor Ossë nor the dragons, balrogs, rivers of fire, or Morgoth himself ever managed: he killed a son of Fëanor.
@@GirlNextGondor By the time of his own death, Maedhros may well have envied Celegorm, Curufin, and Caranthir's deaths as compared to his own they came earlier, in battle, and without the knowledge that the dying had forfeited their claims to the Silmaril.
@@zimmerwald1915 They would have learned of it still, for they are elves destined to wait until the final battle in the halls of Mandos, and i doubt that they would be informationless of their claims to be null and void as other elves passing through the halls must have told them so if not Mandos himself
@@itshenry8977 I think there is a meaningful difference between learning something pre- and post-mortem, and especially between learning something post-mortem and choosing suicide in light of pre-mortem knowledge. As such, I think Maedhros had a worse death than his brothers and might well have envied their deaths-in-ignorance.
I agree. I've always been unsatisfied with Diors' story. It's great that he was able to take 3 sons of Feanor down with him, though. It would have been nice to maybe emphasize that. Maybe his mission was to eliminate the oath as much as he could. Not just drool at the silmaril, but be prepared by his parents for the inevitable danger. Make a grand last stand against them and be the one to remind them that they are unworthy and unable to fulfill their oath anyway. Idk. Just anything to add to Diors character.
I appreciate the detail with which you’ve laid bare the “epic” failure to launch that Dior’s tale embodies in the Silmarillion. So much potential; but I think you’ve really hit it on the nail that Tolkien just didn’t get the opportunity to do that part of the story the justice it deserved. In similar fashion, I feel the same way about Glorfindel’s treatment in the Lord of the Rings; such amazing background material that culminates in a mad dash to rescue Frodo from wraith-hood, and then he steps out of the rest of the story for…? These underdeveloped characters are the unfortunate consequence of having just too much story to cover and too little time (as counted among us Edain) in which to tell it. Alas.
I think his death is sad. Cut short and in such a miserably petty and pointless way. Someone who could’ve done so much for the world. The Curse of Fëanor strikes again.
I took Dior's story to indicate that the Silmarils were basically cursed. Due to the Oath of Feanor and his sons going to war with any and everyone, coming in contact with a Silmaril meant that something bad was going to happen to you. As such, I felt bad for Dior but didn't spend too much thought on him. Whenever someone had a Silmaril, my assumption was "Oh, that guy's gonna die." I didn't know the history behind that part of the book or that the text wasn't as developed.
Although the curse was mainly in pissing off not one or two or three but *seven* of the most bad ass Elf-Lords of the Noldor, who unlike the doriathrim had waged war without interruption for what, about 500 years at this point? It’s like saying that oil is cursed because if you are not careful you might get the attention of the US of A, who would also write polite letters about how you should let the nice Seven Sisters sell your oil, before they bomb you to smithereens.
Isildur had what is still my #1 anti-climatic death in Tolkien. After all he had seen and done, he died durintg a pointless skirmish after the main war was over and after knowing three of his sons had perished. The expanded account _The Disaster of the Gladden Fields_ really drives the point home with this line of his final moments: "only a mortal man, a small creature lost and abandoned in the wilds of Middle-earth"
Thank you for discussing Dior's mortality. To the Elves, I think that he was just the son of their princess and the grandson of their king. He was raised in the culture of the green elves, so like Tuor and Turin and Aragorn it was sometimes hard to tell if they were Elf lords or not. No one had ever seen a union of Elves and Men, and I doubt they gave it a second thought that one so angelically beautiful could be anything but an Elf. But I seriously doubt that he would have begun aging much at 35. And it would not surprise me if the green Elves had different cultural mores and allowed marriage at anytime the parties were sexually mature. If you can be killed in an orc raid at tomorrow it doesn't matter if you don't age, because you won't get much older. So if you need to keep the population of warriors up, you need to have the women having elflings faster than if you have all the time in the world. The Noldor were used to not reckoning time in any meaningful way, Melian kept her husband's people safe and in an almost suspended animation, but the wild green Elves couldn't be so divorced from the reality of the seasons or the years and had to act on the world and with the world so an early coming of age would not necessarily be ridiculous to them. By the time Elwing gets married at 30 something to Earendil it was likely obvious that they had some mannish inheritance but that they might not live forever wasn't even clear to the Valar, so again, Cirdan just let a little foresight and practicality rule. "The girl is an orphan, so she has no parents to object to an early union, but she has obviously blossomed and is wise beyond her years as is Earendil and they want to marry. The time is now as things are moving and we need to ensure the future." As for the disappointment factor, I think we can easily give this an in universe answer. The records were lost as the only source of the battle were the surviving witnesses who saw very little and knew less. To a child like Elwing, they were taken unawares was her answer because that's what she knew. What happened was beyond her knowledge and the abandonment of her brothers in the forest was Maglor's tale, and I don't accuse him of lying, but I don't blame him for not elaborating either. Now your take on the IRL reason is sound and in line with my own thoughts; Tolkien just never got around to finishing his life's work, so Christopher did as much as he could and wisely backed off on the rest. But I would add this thought too. Tolkien was a scholar of Anglo-Saxon everything... language in particular but culture too. He knew what was missing from the narrative, what had been lost and deliberately destroyed. What he and the rest of his people had left of their national story, the bits and bobs of cultural inheritance. Beowulf was epic, but that was all and so it makes sense that he might inadvertently copy that frustration and loss with his own narrative. We don't get all the answers, because Middle earth is real. Its past is real. And there are blanks and breaks and dark ages and mysteries and things that people don't talk about because it still hurts too much "[Bombadil] seemed to remember something sad. .. 'Fair was she who wore this on her shoulder, and we will not forget her.' " FotR. "Someday, they will leave and I will return!" Overheard by Gandalf from Beorn, Hobbit. So it would be in keeping with history that we never get the entire picture. There is often something missing, or several points of view or multiple reasons that this event happened this way. Elves had magic, so who is to say that the bad boys of the Feanoreans didn't conjure up a deep fog to hide themselves from discovery? They were expert trackers, finding the path back to the nest is tracking 101. Then break through the door as the guards are changing and you are inside. Finally it's no shame to Dior that he is facing 3 hardened veteran warriors and managed to kill them but not live through the process, anymore than it taking both Elendil and Gil-galad to take down Sauron and them both dying in the process. So I leave you with that. Again, great video.
I agree about the blanks being almost deliberately left in order to mirror somewhat our own historical dark ages. How many great Anglo Saxon heroes missed out in having their take song simply because no one was there to write it down. This technique almost adds an air of historical realism. So maybe there is a lost tale about the epic struggle between Dior and the sons of Feanor. And I also wondered about his mortality and his rights the life rule the elves. The more I think about it and the more you read the Silmarillion the more the differences between men and elves becomes blurred. Biologically they are the same species but with a different metaphysical destiny. At this stage the elves haven’t really worked out men yet. So I think it’s a case, ( and this sounds very modern) if you identify as an elf and have some justification they will accept you as one).
@@condelevante4 self- identifying? That very well may be. In the Silmarillion, while Idril should also be accounted as an Elven princess lost to her people, it is said that Tuor is accounted among the Elves, due to his great love for them (and frankly, he never knew his mortal parents or family and was raised exclusively among the Elves). However, we are told in nearly the same breath that not even the Valar can override the Gift of the One to Men. So when Earendil and Elwing are allowed to break the Ban, they clearly come as a new hybrid species ... long lived mortals? Immortals that will age but not die? The thought was that these children will inherit the condition of the mortal parent, but maybe the condition of the father, like inheriting ones sex. If the father is mortal, so are you (eventually). Or it could be that immortality is the dominant gene, and so if either parent is immortal, then you will also inherit extremely long life, a functional immortality, which allows Eru and thru Him, Manwe, to allow choice to the original half- Elven and those descended in the first generation from an Elf. Which is why once Elros chooses mortality, he alone is given 500 years more, but the rest of his descendants have a life thrice that of all other Men (they inherit the condition of their father) Mortality remains in Elrond's genes and cannot be swept away but he is now an Elf and his children can either chose to die, because any Elf can die, but to follow the path of Men or simply remain an Elf (their father's condition). A Man cannot choose to be Elf, but Eru may grant additional life to Man, but short of immortality. So this way, it is perfectly fair for Elros to bind his children without them having further choice, (once mortal always mortal, and there was no new infusion of Elf blood, since Elros and all the rest married other mortals) but allowing Elrond's immediate offspring to choose for themselves, since at the beginning, Elrond was as likely to be mortal as immortal and any Elf can give up their life if they wish and their mother was an Elf, only makes sense). Then back to Tuor and Idril, I believe that Idril in Mandos, was offered the right of Luthien, to accompany Tuor beyond the confines of the World, because they were both drowned trying to reach Valinor. I also believe that Dior's wife would have been given the same offer (but it may not be possible to give Dior the same choice, because he was like say Eldarion, already mortal born). But it is also in my headcanon that Tuor was allowed a great span of life in Valinor before they would both leave beyond the confines of Arda. It would allow them to see their son again. I may write it all out someday.
Interestingly enough in The Nature of Middle-Earth book, Tolkien wrote that Elves typically avoided having children in times of peril, which basically describes the entire history of Beleriand after Morgoth returns.
@@istari0 absolutely and I forgot to address that! Thank you!! Because that would have stopped all procreation for several hundred years. However, again, I believe that the little known or examined Green Elves and the rest of the Avari would have changed in response to the pressures of a swiftly changing world, not to mention they had fewer resources overall and far less wisdom or even the higher technology of the Noldor in general & Teleri/Sindar under Thingol & Melian. They didn't even have lembas! So what do they do? They have to adjust to survive...even if their physiology won't and can't change (I doubt they can so much as freckle in the Sun) their culture to survive can.
@@marieroberts5458 you bring up some really interesting examples and questions. Why do the decedents of Elrond have a choice whereas the decedents of Elros don’t? Both marry the kind in accordance with their choice. It can’t be purely materialistic, in that there is a gene or something. It seems to me that while men have the Gift of Eru, elves don’t. Those who choose to be of elf kind do not become 100% elves. Instead they are counted as an intermediate state - halfelves. I have seen a letter, one of Tolkiens lasts, when he corrects a fan who mentioned Arwen as being an elf, stating that she was of the halfelven who later became mortal. So I think that where for example the sons of Elrond where to marry elves their children would be half elves with the choice of becoming mortal. Maybe where they to leave middle earth and go to Valinor and meet an elfmaiden there, they would finally be counted as fully elven and their children would no longer have a choice. For sure the halfelves where part of Erus plan since the music, and so the two kinds were to be the same species but with different destinies.
22:00 Considering that he is half human, 1/4 elf and 1/4 demigod, I think that his life would be very, VERY long. Elros, who was a descendant of 2 half elven families lived almost half a millennia. In Dior´s case, I´d add a solid few centuries on top of that. Also, using online gaming slang, I´d say that all the other characters around him kept powercreeping, and he just stayed in his stock form.
I've had similar thoughts on Dior, but more forgiving. I think there is a huge untapped potential in the character, and a great story that we just don't know about. So instead of disappointment it's more endlessly teasing... and with how new Tolkien notes are consistently published, I still hold out a sliver of hope we'll get a little more on this character. He should be epic. And maybe he was epic, just didn't have his story told yet. I also agree that he had to have been human, since Luthien had also become human when he was born. Which would then technically make Elwing as much of a half-Elven as Earendil. One of Thingol's later redeeming traits (before his steep decline) was newfound fondness for humanity, Beren's plight really seemed to move him, especially how he tries to do good by Turin. But yeah, a kingdom of Elves ruled by a human has so much potential. Perhaps Dior was attempting to unlock powers from his Maiar heritage, like how Luthien had some unusual powers, and recreate the Girdle? Maybe there was a treacherous group within Doriath who object to a human, and young/inexperienced, ruler, and they let the Feanorians in and gave them aid before knowing it would lead to another kinslaying, and a few regret what they see and are responsible for Elwing's rescue/survival? I see these stories as still could have taken place, even if they weren't detailed.
I agree there does seem to be an unfinished quality about this section, but it does kind of add to the sense that at this stage everything is just going downhill irrevocably with no way to stop it, and helps build up a feeling of despair for the Elves, which turns around when we get to Earendil, so it at least manages to serve the narrative in that way (IMHO).
I have always associated Dior with the elves, especially as Elwing claims them as her people from the beginning and is somewhat indicated to have been immortal. This I actually have no problem with at all. The saddest part to me was the vanishing of the very young uncles of Elrond and Elros. It seems that even the sons of Feänor saw this as going too far and attempted to reverse course in the middle of the stream. Sadly it was too late and the boys vanished into the myths of history, and likely down the gullet of an eldricht horror.
The story of dior always gave me the impression of being a fragment form a longer tale, as if maybe there was a poem or song about the attack, siege and sack and the death of Dior, all we have left is the facts not the sonf which once described them. Thanks GNG and keep up the good work.
I have an ancestor who was at the center of a story that was very popular and intriguing to British people around 1610 or so. He would have been a household name at the time, everybody heard the story and dramatizations of it were made of it, incl by Shakespeare. But the funny thing is, the dramatizations of the story remain, but to find an actual comprehensive account of the actual events requires combining several sources, and there are many unknowns. A story that captured an entire country for a time, but much can be lost, and is, even with popular stories, over time
Brilliantly put. I’ve always felt like Dior got very short shrift too, but you crystallized the reasons for me very well. Another candidate (or pair of candidates) for near-miss character(s) in Tolkien would be Elladan and Elrohir.
I'd say your assessment of why Dior goes so underdeveloped is probably right on the money, although by my own estimation he also is stuck with the unenviable position of needing to exist in order for Elwing and Eärendil to be about the same age, yet also needing to die in time for Doriath to collapse on schedule and for Elwing to be a refugee in the Havens of Sirion rather than a princess in Menegroth. His life and death could certainly have been a bit more dramatic, but they still likely would have played out about the same way. One could perhaps make the case for his squandered potential being a statement on how even those born into great circumstances can be laid low by fate and a handful of poor decisions or something, but that seems like a bit too much of a stretch to me.
Thank you for this video - I have long felt Dior was such a 'question mark' in the Legendarium. His parentage is so legendary, the events surrounding his upbringing and rise to power are so significant, and yet Dior seems to have been relegated to the role of a stopgap between more important characters; his only function in the narrative was to father more important people in history. That never sat well with me, & I have struggled to accept it. The sense of loss in the Silmarillion should be even more hefty had Dior & his situation only been fleshed out a bit more to allow the reader to invest in them. A human(?) in his mid-thirties slaying THREE of the Sons of Feanor during the Second Kinslaying that ruined Doriath?!?! That deserves so much more exploration.
30 elf years probably. Also even 30 spent being raised by Beren, Lúthien, Thingol and Melian and others of the realm would make you prime at a young age to achieve anything.
One has to wonder what would've happened had Dior answered the Feanorians, Maedhros specifically, as he was the eldest. ----- "Come and get your prize, if you dare". The curt reply would have read. ----- I envision Dior, in a glade bathed with sunlight, on the borders of his realm, surrounded by a small retinue. He is wearing the Nauglamir. In the distance, a rustling rumor can be heard growing amongst the trees, as of many armoured feet marching, determined and heedless of obstacles. Dior raises a bejeweled hand to quiet the murmurs of dismay echoing behind him. Before long a tall silhouette emerges in the clearing from the underbrush. Deep Red locks clasped in silver braces fanning across broad shoulders. Steel covered shoulders... Others stride forth, six altogether, formed in a wedge behind their leader. Night and gold and flame. The sons of Fëanor have come. Dior flexes his left hand in a fist around the pommel of Aranruth, Thingol's blade, before breathing in deep to settle his burgeoning anxiety. His gaze goes beyond the brethren, noting the glint of many mails in the shadows of the forest. He then focuses back on his 'guests', as they advance. Maedhros and his brothers slowly advance, then stop, arrested at the sight before them. The King of Doriath stands tall, shimmering in the pale morning. The finely woven scales of his hauberk are made of mithril, which reflect the light coming off the jewel set amidst the necklace around his throat. Maglor stiffles a cry. The man before them is more like a lord of the Maiar than one of the Eldar. Then their host raises a hand and says. "I do not welcome you, sons of my people's enemy." The voice rings clear yet the accusation hangs heavy in the air. "And yet, we are here at your invitation Lord." Maedhros replies smoothly while bowing, gloved hand closed across his chest. He catches a muffled curse escaping Curufin's lips behind him. "Silence!" He rasps, before turning his attention towards the Sindar. The king takes a few steps forward then stops again before retorting. "Only to seize that which you had not the courage to gain otherwise!" Maedhros studies his counterpart for a moment. The brow is proud and the hand firm. 'This half-breed does not lack courage, for all his foolishness' He thinks to himself, marking how few attendants the man has. "Surrender what is rightfully ours Lord, and you shall hear no more of the sons of Fëanor." The king's hand goes up, briefly touching the jewel around his neck, before he beckons to one of the Sindar at his side. He then unclasps the glittering necklace and gently lays it down in a carven box opened before him, motioning his servant forward. As Maedhros receives the small coffer Dior says. "May you have the wisdom to leave it behind you, prince of the Noldor." Maedhros glances up sharply. "This thing is cursed..." Dior adds, doleful "...by the Lords of the West, and by the blood of all those who have died at your hand!" Maedhros becomes aware of the uncomfortable heat coming off the casket. "They say you are the most reasonable of the brethren" Dior continues "Can you not sense for yourself that all claims you once had on this jewel are now extinct?" "Kill this dark elf Brother!" Urges Celegorm in a loud whisper to his right. Maedhros raises his steel fist, commanding silence; a sheen of sweat forming on his brow as he tightens his grip. The voice of the Sindar king is relentless, almost pleading. "You can break the Curse, son of Fëanor, but only if you chose to abandon your prize."
Dior also struck me as a major disappointment. A few thoughts (all speculative, obviously): 1) As far as his mortality goes, Dior was born to Luthien after she became mortal, so maybe that’s why he’s fully mortal and appeared to have no Choice, even though Elros and Elrond later do. 2) That may also be why Tolkien needed to include Dior in the line: he needed both sides of the Elwing/Eärendil match to be half-elven, but Dior was effectively fully mortal, so Tolkien couldn’t pair Tuor and Idril’s child directly with Beren and Luthien’s once Luthien became mortal. (Honestly, with that heritage, I’d expect Beren and Luthien’s child to have been Eärendil, but then he wouldn’t have had a parent who was elven at, to be indelicate, the time of conception.) I also suspect that Tolkien really, really wanted Beren and Luthien’s only child to be a son, just to avoid messy succession problems. 3) Melian leaving explains Dior’s easy fall to me. No one left in Doriath, probably not even elves, could remember a time without the Girdle. I imagine those in Doriath didn’t know all the ways it had guarded them through the years, and that Thingol was not generous with knowledge about it; as such, most of those in Doriath were unprepared for defensive war without it. A mortal life like Dior’s, even with what knowledge he could get from his mother, simply left no time to prepare for its loss. 4) Thank goodness Tolkien tells us about Eldarion’s successful reign. Without that, based on Dior’s precedent, I’d assume he died miserably in some traitorous revolt.
You are absolutely correct. I noticed this many years ago, but Dior gets a big spot--and even the "Thingol's Heir" epithet listed--in the Elven family tree . . . and then he's just forgettable. 🤷♂️
Dior's most important actions were that he married very early and rapidly had children at an age where most Elves haven't even matured into adulthood (which shows the influence of his mortal heritage).
@@GirlNextGondor Basically. It's really the only important thing he did. Like you, I was disappointed. Here he was, the first child to combine Elf, Man and Maiar and hella goodlooking to boot. And this is it?
@@margaretalbrecht4650 Well, that just happens. Since when being a descendant of a great person guarantees greatness? Looking back at our own history, how many descendants of great rulers/conquerors were actually great? Also, I kinda feel bad for the man, all this pressure: "you're the son of THE Beren and THE Luthien, your grandparents are THE king of Doriath and Melian THE freaking Maia, so you HAVE to achieve greatness and awesomeness!" Ugh, just get stuffed. Go be full of expectations elsewhere and let me be normal.
I'd like to imagine that he had the foresight that the events had to play this way, Elwing fleeing with The Sil. The Silmaril went to Valinor and Morgoth was defeated after all.
Weather intentional or not I do like how anticlimactic certain parts of the silmarilian are. It's not really good fiction but it makes it feel more realistic to me
I have always filled in the blanks with an epic three on one duel between Dior and the three Feanorian A-holes deep in the halls of Menegroth. As for the status of Dior the Fair, prior to the judgements of Mandos & Manwe regarding the Half-Elven, the kindred assigned to a particular half-elf seems to be related to who you identify with, hang out with and live with as a matter of circumstance or disposition. I also don't know how to feel about a mortal Elven King ruling over subjects who will blink once or twice before he has left the circles of Arda in the twinkling of an eye. Why is anyone still following the Feanorians after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears? Aren't they radioactive at this point? I never got why they were not pariahs at this point. The Kin slaying is no longer a secret. They stir up trouble everywhere they go. As great as they are when in a fight with the minions of Morgoth, they are otherwise a health hazard to be avoided. On the other hand, it would have been cool of Dior to bring Curufin and the Feanor bros on over to Menegroth and invited them each, in turn, one at a time to come and take their father's treasure, if it would have them. If not, and some naughty body elves have unclean hands, then Doriath's finest archers are even now waiting to dispose of the unworthy...who's first?
"As for the status of Dior the Fair, prior to the judgements of Mandos & Manwe regarding the Half-Elven, the kindred assigned to a particular half-elf seems to be related to who you identify with, hang out with and live with as a matter of circumstance or disposition." How so? Dior was the first of the Peredhil, and thus there would be nothing to go on prior.
I remember reading the Silmarillion when I was 14 or so, and I had just this nagging feeling that the story of Dior was missing fundamental elements, just the ones listed in this video. Is he mortal now, being the son of a mortal? If yes, would the sindar in doriath accept mortal nobility? And wouldn't his project of resurrecting Doriath not be doomed from the beginning, bordering on necromancy as it appears to be? And why is this character introduced and killed in the span of a few pages? Eventually, I settled on the idea that given that other half-elves apparently got to choose and Dior was the first of them (a prototype, as it were), the concept of choice between elven and mortal status had not been invented yet by the Valar (or they had not inquired about it at upper management :D ) and he was 'elvish upon revocation', but that wasn't really satisfying either. I wasn't aware of the history of the simarillion at the time, but this whole part of the story felt almost as dissatisfying as the war of wrath to me.
Have I been dissapointed? Thingol more than Dior. He ignores the counsel of a maiar, his wife, completely. She did not just plant trees, landscaping a few thorn bushes, she enchanted and Sustained Protection that repeled Ungolianth and Morgoth both. She bound herself with limitations because she loved Thingol. ...and he ignores her advice. As to Melian simply leaving everyone high and dry...her incarnation in the form of a physical Child of Illuvatar came about from her relationship to Thingol. With him dead, indeed a Change came over her. She required him to keep that form. The Girdle was made in part through the magic of their relationship, without him or her, its protective magic ended. No she didn't just abandon her people. She couldn't maintain that form or being or access that magic. In the real world you would not believe the number of family owned businesses that fail or become a ghost shadow of its former self when one or the other spouse dies. It is a real thing. I simply see it reflected in this story. A couple of brothers I know inheirited their father's hotels and restaurants. It took less than ten years before both were homeless. Fortunately this isn't universal, but it happens way too often. Dior isn't too far away from that, attempting to sustain and rebuild something only a maiar in love could bring into being. He might have had more success (in my imagination) had he called in Tom Bombadil or had married Goldberry instead of Tom marrying her. As to Dior being purely human...I'd have to imagine that having maiar ancestry changed the equation being that close to the original source even if he parents were an exceptional case. Consider even generations removed Imrahil sustained some elven traits and attributes for another example. Sometimes those things seem to skip a generation. Reminds me of Dutch friends... All of Dave's brothers and sisters have white blond hair. He has the same features as them but black hair and skin that tans so much he's been identified as Hispanic (thank the Moors of Africa for that). Were it not his resemblance to his father (except for coloring) one might have thought the delivery man had a hand. My take away from all of this... Don't accept a silmaril and whatever you do, don't fight over it. What might have happened if Dior had simply given it to the sons of Feanor? It might have killed them without Dior having to do anything. Oh well. What gets me is...could the Dwarves touch it to place it in the necklace without effect?
Good analysis, I always appreciate your videos. I think one point you’re missing with Dior that I think could easily be inferred is his reason for holding onto the Silmaril. It’s what he has left of his parents. It’s how he found out they died. It’s his connection to his grandfather, and it’s the guys who abused his parents and wronged them who are demanding it. I don’t think any curse or ill omen would have persuaded him to let it go to the Feanorian jerks. And I don’t think he held onto it out of greed. Even if it was sentimentality, it’s something we can at least understand and show him empathy for not wanting to give it up to his parents’ enemies. Unfortunately, I do think he is the sad result of a part of the story that was extremely underdeveloped. I do think Tolkien had more to give us on his story, but he sadly never got around to it, as you rightly point out.
If you'd kept yourself in an iron dungeon for hundreds of years thinking of nothing but destruction, hatred and revenge a pretty dancing elf might distract you. First, the fact she got there, second, her
It's a solid irony. Of course that is what distracts him and costs him a Silmaril. Dance and song. That is the kind of living being he refuses and denies to have in his realm.
And when you think about it, what does, what can distract a tyrant? Especially pretty young women dancing is the first thing you might think of. For all their cunning men are simple beings, so there's a lesson there
To be fair, he was 35 when he died and the Silmaril was just a shiny rock his parents died for. Personally, I would've thrown it in the face of the 1st Noldo I saw - until I recall what a-holes Celegorm or Curufin were to his parents. You'd think they'd get a clue when even the Dog left!
I wouldn't necessarily have expected for Dior to go out in a blaze of glory when I read the chapter. What I notice now is that unlike the heroes and heroes turning kings of Middle-Earth, he didn't really achieve his position in life by his own deeds, he simply inherited it... I feel like he lacked something in order to thrive, whether it were some life lessons you'd survive, a willingness to overcome complacency, or a guiding figure for counsel...
Great points as usual. I guess he had limited chances while there was peace in Ossiriand and Doriath. Once he had the chance to establish himself in war, he died instead. Lexi did a great job of making me dislike Dior.😅
The passion you express for the lit, whether pro (in most cases) or con (in this) is well understood by other academics like me! I always enjoy your explanations, elaborations, and even the occasional ("It's not fair!) rants. Thanx very much for entertaining me!!!
My disappointment has always been aimed at more Doriath in general. It was purportedly this big powerful realm that largely sits out the wars with Morgoth and should therefore be getting stronger as others get weaker. Then a few dwarves randomly kill the (poorly guarded) king, Dior shows up, and a few years later the Sons of Fëanor, who based on their wars should be diminished to a tiny rag tag wandering army, just wipes out the rest. Like Morgoth didn’t have to do anything and Doriath like you said was ineptly defended. At least Gondolin, arguably the only more powerful Elven stronghold, went down in a badass fight against the greatest host and technology yet assembled. Doriath just has a fraud and disappointing feel. I agree that a lot of Dior just never got fleshed out, but his arc being a letdown kind of makes sense. His introduction is rather opposite Aragorn’s. In Aragorn we meet a rascally dirty looking man from the wild who never knew his dad and rises to King Elessar. Dior we see as fair, but he lets us down. I think his story, or lack thereof, is a story of appearances being deceiving and the magnitude of the Doom of Mandos.
I think that, in terms of _Realpolitik_, Doriath was just too dependent on the Girdle of Melian, to the point where all its other defenses were just for show.
I’m with you there. Especially about Doriath. Like, it’d be even more poetic that it’d ultimately only be able to fall when the monumental War Of Wrath came about. That something if even more monolithic stature that sunders the land of Beleriand so much that barely any of it remains in tact except places like Lindon etc. alternatively if the girdle didn’t fully break or regained itself after Beren’s main story played out that it could have possibly been a stronghold throughout the War Of Wrath which took 80 years(maybe even 80 elf years if we want to make it more epic)
@@akatsukami9578meanwhile it’s the greatest realm around. The height of elvendom upon Arda which should mean their prowess and the land itself matches the “unmatched” essence of the 1000 caved realm of Doriath which all of it was hand crafted out from the natural world itself. Showing yet again their close bond with nature as they are one in the same with it. Hence even Legolas can walk ontop of the show etc. “feet as light as Lindon leaves”
I'm late to the party with this video, but you nailed everything off with Dior lol! His whole story and choices are just... why!? He could have been so much more. And he ends up raising so many questions about the nature of the half-elven. xD
I think I get so salty about him because all the other peredhil have my undying devotion. By comparison he's not just uninteresting, he becomes an affront 🤣
What a great analysis! I agree with the idea that Dior had tremendous potential. I actually think he should have lived on as an elven king into the third age. He could have been a tremendous foil to Sauron, especially when you consider his lineage. Can you imagine the kind of respect Elrond's grandfather would command? Also, there is another character that feels dumb and underwritten: Finduilas. She was a quasi-love interest for Turin Turambar, but gets lead off as a prisoner of war and dies nailed to a tree trunk. It felt like she was just used in a disposable fashion but I think her character should have had a greater destiny. Some elvish deception magic was definitely in order, or at least a demise a bit more eventful than just some basic orc brutality.
I truly hope one day you or someone as dedicated as you are to making these characters make sense has a significant role to play when bringing said characters to screen versions.
22:34 I think you are spot on here. And I agree Dior is one of those characters who fairly SCREAMS should have a real story, but never got it, at least not in the way it coulda/shoulda been.
Ah, there's nothing like a new GNG video to keep me company as I perform my weekly service to the domain of Ulmo (read: do the water changes on the aquariums). Thanks, Lexi!
Dior? A disappointment? There is NO BIGGER disappointment then the Sons of Feanor. They were the biggest failures in Elvendome. Wasted lives of potential triumph and achievement above the complete failure of their Father and Grandfather and Grandmother. The whole line of Feanor is a sad disappointment by the tragic flaws Tolkien gives them all. Just my opinion.
I have personally never cared much for Dior but I do find it strange and puzzling how the Doriathrim and Menegroth could’ve been caught completely off guard by the Feanorians. Besides all the reasons you mentioned you would assume that at least a small portion of Doriath’s population would have been living in the forest surrounding Menegroth, would’ve caught wind of the intruding Feanorian army and sent a warning to Dior at least a few hours before the Feanorians reached their Capital city.
The only other example in the fiction I've read is Raditz from Dragon Ball. Raditz alone transformed the series from a wacky martial arts manga into a sci-fi space opera. He introduced a galactic-sized threat into the fold, and things got HUGE from then on. He's the older brother of the protagonist, a villain who wants to force his brother into becoming a mercenary for a galactic overlord. He is denied, he is killed... and then nothing is done about him henceforth. He's just an afterthought on the grand scheme of things, even though he should have been SO much more...
Your dad may be national honor society in college with a master degree with a All pro NFL career and mom may be a doctor with multiple gold medalist in track and field and multiple platinum albums on the music scene that doesn’t mean that even if you inherited their genetics you’ll be anywhere near successful. Life’s just odd like that.
On the matter of Dior's aging, I think that's a tough one to say for certain. I mean, the only First Age human whose entirely natural death is described in detail is Beor the Old, who lived to the ripe old age of 93....even without any "anti-aging" effects as the result of being half elven & quarter Maiar.
Dior reminds me of Dick Halloran in The Shining (played by Scatman Crothers in the movie). The whole movie you think he’s going to rescue Danny Torrance and then -wham-! Axe in the back. Dior’s potential is played up specifically to set up our expectations that he will succeed.
Interesting take, and one I can't really argue with. Admittedly, I never really thought much or paid much attention to Dior since he occupies such a minimal role in The Silmarillion, but now that you point it out... Yeah, he's a hotspot of missed potential. I have no doubt that Tolkien would have expanded on this topic if he'd had more time to... you know, live. Since the entire Legendarium outside of The Hobbit/TLotR was essentially a work-in-progress, I can't help but wonder what Dior's story would have looked like if it had been developed in full. Dammit, if there's one Man who should have been allowed to forgo the Gift of Ilúvatar and break the bonds of mortality, it was Professor Tolkien!
I don't think Dior keeping the Silmaril was a mistake - ultimately, it was necessary for Earendil to reach the Undying Lands. Then again, you could argue it was a bad idea with good consequences like Feanor leaving Valinor. As for details about what characters should have done, I think it's too easy to pick much of the Silmarillion apart by pointing out those kinds of flaws (like Fingon and Maedhros having 0 communication before the Nirnaeth, or the Feanorians leaving behind the Palantiri in Valinor, or Melkor not trying to get the lost Silmaril back even though he covets them so and is so proud). We have very little information and ultimately it's an unfinished fictional mythology - everyone's free to choose their own approach, but I prefer to take the text as is and reserve judgment on account of the genre and our lack of knowledge, rather than looking for problems and disappointing myself. But maybe I'm just tired of questions about the Eagles not flying the Fellowship anywhere.
The only logical conclusions are that Dior was *incredibly* talented at combat, he shared his mom's magic sleepytime powers, or the Feanorians were throwing the fight because they were fed up of Oath-ing.
@@GirlNextGondor Maybe a mix of the first two. Outstanding move on the Professor's part, having Dior die young so he didn't have to burn more brain cells figuring Dior's (im) mortality, (lack of) aging, and so on.
22:00 Everything said in that section of the video, I have always had the same impression: that Dior was an Elf in an earlier version and Tolkien never got around to changing him to fit the story. This is the first video where I heard someone else say it.
I do enjoy your analyses, and seldom have anything to add to them, so take this as an observation rather than a discussion. You lay out well that Dior has everything needed to be an epic character. Tolkien, like any writer, can do what he wants with the creations of his mind, so what you offer is truly valid. Here are my Things to Think About (TTAs). Dior strikes me as having too damn MUCH! He's gorgeous, he's capable (mostly), he's educated, he's wise (usually), his lineage is perfection, his family ties are irreproachable. If he was a horse he'd win the Triple Crown. He even gets hung with one critical weakness--he's mortal, although nobody, least of all Dior himself, seems to mind. I wonder if, in the process of Dior's creation, Tolkien might not have had any idea what to do with someone who's just too perfect? Compare him for a second with Thorin, who could have been the greatest of all the Dwarves but for his personal weaknesses. A writer has a lot to work with in a character like Thorin. Looking from another angle, let's pretend Dior lives in OUR world just for a second. His parents are super successful artists, film stars and sports champions who also have backgrounds as war heroes and successful jewel thieves. Here's a truism, kids of overachieving parents seldom reach the same levels of success. Some do--but all too many don't. Tolkien was a smart and usually highly insightful man. He already had one Parsifal in Glorfindel. We don't know a whole lot about him either. We know what he did and how well he did it, but little about him as a character central to a story. Perfection is damn hard to write about. Tolkein did Dior well by building in enemies, curses, and quests both foreign and domestic; but even the most brilliant writers do run out of ideas. My conclusion is that Dior might just be a victim of a dry spell in his creator's imagination.
I personally see Diors' story being a bit underdeveloped as the point. I remember while reading it, I thought part of the idea was that Dior had the potential to be the greatest elf/man ever, but because of the oath of Feanor, he is robbed of the world. He COULD HAVE been the savior of Doriath, but he decided to keep the Silmaril. That's the problem with the Silmarills. No one can refuse them, and that robs not only the world from their beauty but also the owners from the world.
👍🏼I agree, this i think is why elwing jumps off a cliff, she can not wholly refuse the silmaril but she can prevent any more violence being done for its sake.
With the sudden off-screen death I'm reminded of how we found out Bucky died in the original Captain America comic: a two panel flashback. Only, Bucky got a super-dark but super awesome comeback. Dior got... basically to be the least known person in his entire line. Harsh.
I think Fëanor's short stint in Middle Earth is the most disappointing thing in the Legendarium. Tolkien could have drawn him out until the 5th-6th Century of the First Age and gave him an epic battle where he defeats wave after wave of does until two dragons, three Balrogs, and Sauron finally kill him. He went out like an impulsive moron.
I have a theory (which I cannot confirm) that the continued existence of Dior was just a result of Tolkien's indecisiveness. He had written two falls of Doriath, one by dwarves, the other by elves and he didn't want to sacrifice either, similar to how he "cloned" Elrond when he could not decide if he should be lord of elves in Middle Earth or the king of Numenor. If not for this, I suspect Tolkien would have cut him out and made Elwing Beren and Luthien's daughter instead; I think he even calls Elwing their daughter in one writing, completely forgetting about Dior.
There is a in depth video that explains that there was an Elrond of Númenor as well as Elrond Peredhel and how the more closely finished product got to where it is now titled: Elros & Elrond: The creation of a king and accidental twins | Tolkien‘s Evolution. ❤. By The Red Book.
I never understood why Dior was "needed" in the story. You could just cut him off, make Elwing the direct descendant of Beren and Luthien and the overall plot would not change that much. By adding him and subsequently killing him when he was young (by the reckoning of Elves and Men!), the strain of the Ainur in that bloodline is further diluted.
I feel like you might have answered your own question. Tolkien being a devout catholic might have deemed it necessary that there was an extra step between the divine and mortal. In greek mythology its frequently the sons or daughters of the gods that are the meaningful characters in the stories. But from the catholic point of view: who is the son of God? Jezus. And he is more perfect and divine(or at least portrayed as such) than the half gods of greek myth. I feel like Tolkien might not have wanted to portrayed his more critical characters on the same level as Jesus Christ.
@@TheBicycleRepairman2 I think there might have been a few moments, just after he had his first piece of toast in the morning, when Tolkien did not think first and exclusively of Catholic doctrine. As an ex-Catholic, I can assure you there is a difference between being devout and being an obsessive zealot.
Honestly, the only reason Dior is necessary is so that the 2nd kinslaying would have dramatic weight. But then he's such a cypher, so that doesn't work either...
This may seem strange to you, but I think Dior's existence was necessary to make Elwing half-Periain. Luthien chose to be a mortal, so technically Dior must have been fully Man, so when he married an Elf and she gave birth to Elwing, Elwing would be "Half-elven." Maybe that is not the case, but I don't think it is mentioned that Eönwë gave Dior a choice of which race he wanted to be.
Dior seems to me like the Western Roman emperor Majorian. Majorian is the last strong emperor of the West. He does the best he can for about 7 years reuniting the declining and fragmenting empire and getting the empire back into a position of power. But after a planned campaign to retake North Africa fails, he's betrayed and killed anti-climactically by his rival Ricimer. The Western empire falls shortly thereafter. If Majorian had lived, he might have been remembered as a great emperor along with Constantine and Aurelian. Dior's story seems like it was influenced by Majorian, and given the Roman and Byzantine (Eastern Roman) influences in Tolkien's work, I would not be surprised if he knew of Majorian and was influenced by that bit of history.
I’ve always viewed Dior’s existence to be entirely plot-service focused. He fathers Elwing (vs. Beren/Luthien doing so) so the timeline works for an Earendil/Elwing marriage, and then has no purpose. So his death is entirely in service as a minor but illuminating point of the Fëanorian plot line. The entire story of the Fëanorians would be a reasonable plot line for a multi-generational family of gangsters, a criminal enterprise started by an amazingly charismatic individual. Dior is plotline useless after Elwing…. and so why not make his death be an example of how boringly and disgustingly crude the evil of longtime gangsters become as time marches on? Dior is simply a tool… Tolkien’s tool. A tool of a Tolk(ien)
Tolkien's work was always about the most common people achieving the greatest things if their values are good. So being highly born as Dior is doesn't actually mean anything... In the great plan of things, he is just another dude... 💁🏻♂️
Nice rant! While I agree that it's just a case of not being fleshed out in the newer canon, I would like to point some things in addition to other excellent answers (such as the one by @marieroberts5458). Will try not to put all the thoughts down before it turns into a kingsize sheet of a post. First: Winter offensives were not a thing for most of human history even in milder climates such as the Mediterranean one. As such, a winter attack could very easily catch someone by surprise. Keeping that in mind, secondly, a problem that Doriath had as a kingdom was that it was a forest. Forest are very bad at providing food resources for a large population. I seem to remember reading (and if not it is inferred) that food resources came from the elves under Doriath's rule outside the forest (I would argue that Doriath was at its prime when Morgoth was still captive btw). The only reason I'm mentioning it is that, given the whole bruhaha before and the sad state of affairs in Beleriand in general, there was probably a dearth of stockpiled resources. That would make a prologned siege a nightmare for the besiegers and a death sentence for the besieged. Being stuck underground with no food and means of egress? Horrible death. So even if they had enough manpower to simultaneously fend off the orcs and co as they were doing even in Thingol's time and keep a full guard at the east and south (the Feanorians could have swung around a bit), their options were limited. So why not give up Doriath altogether? Because no one, in the history of mankind (or elvenkind for that matter) ever does. For an example, the once mighty Byzantine Empire, by the time of the fall of Constantinople, was just Constantinople really. It was logically absolutely stupid to not just surrender. Yet they didn't. And I get it. Lastly, well, we know he was handsome. We know he did a decent job as an administrator. That doesn't tell us anything about his strategic and tactical accumen (knowing how to fight and how to lead an army are completely different) or about how clever he really was. I'm not saying he was stupid, but did he have the extraordinary smarts that the situation required? Maybe he was more like his grandfather. Handsome, not a bad guy, but loads of arrogance and little forethought. All in all, it could have been a noble, epic battle we never got the resources for as already mentioned. It could also very well be that he wasn't up to it. Or one of the gazillion guyswith potential in history that met an inglorious death. Without Melian the kingdom was doomed anyway (something I always blame Melian for) it just fell to the Feanorians and not the Orcs.
Have you considered the possibility of the influence of dragon-sickness on Dior's decision? _The Hobbit_ mentions "the power that gold has upon which a dragon has long brooded", and I recall that my reading of the _Silmarillion_ gave me the impression Glaurung cursed the treasure of Nargathrond (though I could be misremembering). While it seems to work off of preexisting greed, it could be that any motive to hoard it (such as spite against the people who tried to force your mother into marriage) is also manipulated.
Yeah, I remember reading SIlmarillion the first time and being really disappointed with Dior. Here's what he should have done; agree to the sons of Feanor's demand, give them the Silmaril, but in exchange they and what's left of their people would become his vassals and live in Doriath. That way not only he avoids their threat, but also strengthen his forces, the sons of Feanor would use their skills to help rebuild Doriath, improving their armor and weapons, and becoming commanders of his armies. Sons of Feanor in exchange find a new safe home, and they would be able to defend Silmaril from Morgoth far easier than on their own. That would have been the best solution in my opinion. But I digress. I would have liked if there would be a game like Shadow of Mordor/War set in the First Age (Shadow of Beleriand if you will), set after Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and one of the places we would visit would be Doriath, both before and after its fall (lets say the Fall of Doriath would be a DLC), letting us see Dior with Silmaril and Menegroth and everything. That would be so awesome^^
The Feanoreans could not do homage or give fealty to Dior, as he had had, however briefly, held a silmaril in his possession and they would need to slay him in wrath for that slight even had he surrendered it.
The problem of Dior (and Elwing) is no one, at the time, had any idea what would happen to them. Live forever like elfs in Ea or live a limited life and depart from Ea. Elrod and Elros are forced to choose but before of them everyone of them have no need to choose anything in advance. In fact, Tuor being counted as an elf because he is born between elves, raised by them, the first to get to the sea and the only man to hear the call of the sea and be directly addressed by Ulmo, marry Idril, being loved by all in Gondolin (but one), after the fall on Gondolin becomes the de-facto leader of the surviving Gondolindrim. He is the only human having lived all his life between elves up to their standards and more and being accepted and loved by elves. So, it is not impossible a direct intervention from Eru to not divide him from the elfs he loved and loved him. In fact, if we take for granted the Valar can not bow to their will the Sons of Iluvatar, this is always true. In Mandos too.
I think it is one of the instances where Tolkien wanted to remind the reader that someone can be sucsesfull or a complete disaster regardless of their bloodline. Dior, Sam, Finarfin and Tar-Palantir are great examples of this.
@@GirlNextGondor I guess choosing the safety of Valinor and avoiding the senseless journey to Middle Earth at the same time can be called as a wise choice especially when you come later and fight with your brothers in War Of Wrath, sucsesfully overthrowing Morgoth while %90 of your people arent wise enough to get a similar position because of their inherent Noldorin ambition😄
This may be a wild take but i really wish that Dior and Elwing's characters were like, just one singular elf. Ëarendil's bride being the child of Beren and Luthien feels a bit more, idk epic i guess? It's just so hard to care for a character who's literally only there to fill in a blank genealogy space, especially when his genealogy is actually interesting but then the character himself is not. Elwing at least does so much more than her dad
So you asked which character sort of disappointed me and the first one that came to mind was Glorfindel... he is underused in Lord of the Rings. I wanted him to leave Rivendell together with the Grey Company and join Aragorn and friends...
I also wanted more Glorfindel, but it would have been nearly impossible to use him. I might have liked seeing him leading a company of elves to fight at Gondor, but as I said in my comment above, "perfect" characters like GLorfindel are just too hard to write about.
@@DannyJane.He’s actually the one chosen to stick around and guide any of Mankind who wishes to connect with and listen to and converse with him. And first to be ready upon Dagor Dagorath which may or may not have happened yet since Arda is our Midgard etc. ❤
I know this is a year late. But the reason Dior fails the test of the Silmaril, is because he is not free from it's doom the way Beren and Luthien became. Beren and Luthien, were in-fact subject to the doom of the Silmarils, and there-in died in the quest to achieve their possession. Even if they did not name it in desire, they "took" it. As you aptly discussed in your video on "was Maedhros right?" even taking a Silmaril makes you subject to the oath of the Feanorian's, and the doom of the Silmarils. Beren and Luthien died because of the doom. But being set free from their bondage by Mandos, they became free from the doom of the Silmarils. The Doom of their second life, was greater than the Doom of the Silmarils set by Mandos, as he himself released them. I would say that is one of the reasons why the name "release from bondage" exists. The curse lies upon the Silmarils, they are taken by the curse, and then released by the one who set it. Being released from the greatest curse and Doom ever wrought in history is a great freedom and release from bondage. Curses and dooms are not typically Kin unto Kin unless specified. Dior was not subject to the doom of Beren and Luthien's second life. And was such not free from the curse of the Silmarils. The second he accepted it, his fate was sealed. Arguably the same can be said about eElwing and Earendil. As Elwing attempted (Superslide) into the sea. But Ulmo intervened, and Earendil was released from his bonds by the Valar. If they had instead opted to do anything else but sail to Valinor, the doom would have fallen on them in time
As weak as Dior's story is, even more so Nimloth. Is it even certain that she is an elf? It's also interesting to observe how these characters get treated in fan fic, Dior and Tuor and their wives all get rather short shrift. Odd since with less published about them, that leaves more room to invent. Thanks for another fun discussion!
Similar in the sense that it will contain me ranting about wasted potential? All day long 😉 But in contrast to Dior Maeglin does have a decent arc/characterization by Silm standards.
Great vid as always. Dior wasn’t too bright. Just like his Grandad. Side kvetch, so Melian has SO little self worth as to flip out immediately upon Thingol’s death. Have thought this for nigh on 30 years. Same same for Arwen and Aragorn.
Foe me, the occasional random, pointless or awkard stuff (from a narrative point of view) in Tolkien's legendarium is one of the factors that make it feel like real history.
Dior is a character known to have a mortal destiny. Is his mortality due to the fact that both of his parents had mortal fate upon their return from Mandos, or is it a natural consequence of the union where, as a general rule, the father is human and mother is elf? I think Eärendil's situation may be similar to Dior.
I think beleg could of used a chapter of his own. He's one of my favorite characters and he gets done so dirty. Turin ruined any chance of his epicness
14:50 AND the cursed necklace & cursed jewel killed your Mum (“shined so brightly that it shortened her lifespan”) Dam jewellery was like a packet of cigarettes
Yeah definitely not fair, but I do wonder if Tolkien was simply disinterested in the character of Dior to an extent, or at the least possibly intended for the 'Fair' to be empty-headed and to rush to his doom. Though his stupidity in both versions (that where he tells off the Feanorians & the one where he ignores them) of the text, is baffling and just frustrating. There are indeed a number of unanswered questions about this character.
Nice. I feel like if the Hobbit and so then LOTR didn’t explode then like you say, the Dior story line may have carried forward the epic. Also - was Morgoths crown to big and heavy to carry off? I mean, if you’re doing a smash and grab heist best to boogie while everyone is snoozing and work out the details later. But of course that changes many other plot lines. Thank you again GNG. ☮️💟☯️
If it didn't have those splayed out points they could have rolled it. There is never a tire when you need one. But, like the lady said, that's fate for ya.
Dior is indeed disappointing. It's not totally clear though that he's mortal. Luthien chose mortality, but she might have still passed on immortality. The Valar had not yet figured out what to do with the half elves, I don't think? Not until after the War of Wrath
I think he was ment to be the one to pledge for the two kindred in front of the powers... But then Eru saw that Ulmo was running a side plan of hiimself and thought: dam you Ulmo, now I have to kill Dior and use Earendil instead...
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Although Dior succeeds in what neither the Teleri nor Ossë nor the dragons, balrogs, rivers of fire, or Morgoth himself ever managed: he killed a son of Fëanor.
One imagines they were quite miffed by that fact.
@@GirlNextGondor By the time of his own death, Maedhros may well have envied Celegorm, Curufin, and Caranthir's deaths as compared to his own they came earlier, in battle, and without the knowledge that the dying had forfeited their claims to the Silmaril.
@@zimmerwald1915 They would have learned of it still, for they are elves destined to wait until the final battle in the halls of Mandos, and i doubt that they would be informationless of their claims to be null and void as other elves passing through the halls must have told them so if not Mandos himself
@@itshenry8977 I think there is a meaningful difference between learning something pre- and post-mortem, and especially between learning something post-mortem and choosing suicide in light of pre-mortem knowledge. As such, I think Maedhros had a worse death than his brothers and might well have envied their deaths-in-ignorance.
Ossë never tried to kill a son of Fëanor; Uinen (kind of (if she really wanted, she probably could've killed all of them)) did.
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness, that is life."
I agree. I've always been unsatisfied with Diors' story. It's great that he was able to take 3 sons of Feanor down with him, though. It would have been nice to maybe emphasize that. Maybe his mission was to eliminate the oath as much as he could. Not just drool at the silmaril, but be prepared by his parents for the inevitable danger. Make a grand last stand against them and be the one to remind them that they are unworthy and unable to fulfill their oath anyway. Idk. Just anything to add to Diors character.
I appreciate the detail with which you’ve laid bare the “epic” failure to launch that Dior’s tale embodies in the Silmarillion. So much potential; but I think you’ve really hit it on the nail that Tolkien just didn’t get the opportunity to do that part of the story the justice it deserved.
In similar fashion, I feel the same way about Glorfindel’s treatment in the Lord of the Rings; such amazing background material that culminates in a mad dash to rescue Frodo from wraith-hood, and then he steps out of the rest of the story for…?
These underdeveloped characters are the unfortunate consequence of having just too much story to cover and too little time (as counted among us Edain) in which to tell it. Alas.
I think his death is sad. Cut short and in such a miserably petty and pointless way. Someone who could’ve done so much for the world. The Curse of Fëanor strikes again.
The silmarils belong to the house of Fëanor.
@@SWOTHDRA The silmarils say otherwise.
I honestly don't have a problem with the non-start of Dior. Mainly because someone can have all the advantages and still lose it all.
I took Dior's story to indicate that the Silmarils were basically cursed. Due to the Oath of Feanor and his sons going to war with any and everyone, coming in contact with a Silmaril meant that something bad was going to happen to you. As such, I felt bad for Dior but didn't spend too much thought on him. Whenever someone had a Silmaril, my assumption was "Oh, that guy's gonna die." I didn't know the history behind that part of the book or that the text wasn't as developed.
Although the curse was mainly in pissing off not one or two or three but *seven* of the most bad ass Elf-Lords of the Noldor, who unlike the doriathrim had waged war without interruption for what, about 500 years at this point? It’s like saying that oil is cursed because if you are not careful you might get the attention of the US of A, who would also write polite letters about how you should let the nice Seven Sisters sell your oil, before they bomb you to smithereens.
Exactly, why would Beren or Melian bring this thing back to Luthien after Thingol's death? Any of both should have known better...
Isildur had what is still my #1 anti-climatic death in Tolkien. After all he had seen and done, he died durintg a pointless skirmish after the main war was over and after knowing three of his sons had perished. The expanded account _The Disaster of the Gladden Fields_ really drives the point home with this line of his final moments: "only a mortal man, a small creature lost and abandoned in the wilds of Middle-earth"
Thank you for discussing Dior's mortality. To the Elves, I think that he was just the son of their princess and the grandson of their king. He was raised in the culture of the green elves, so like Tuor and Turin and Aragorn it was sometimes hard to tell if they were Elf lords or not.
No one had ever seen a union of Elves and Men, and I doubt they gave it a second thought that one so angelically beautiful could be anything but an Elf. But I seriously doubt that he would have begun aging much at 35. And it would not surprise me if the green Elves had different cultural mores and allowed marriage at anytime the parties were sexually mature. If you can be killed in an orc raid at tomorrow it doesn't matter if you don't age, because you won't get much older. So if you need to keep the population of warriors up, you need to have the women having elflings faster than if you have all the time in the world. The Noldor were used to not reckoning time in any meaningful way, Melian kept her husband's people safe and in an almost suspended animation, but the wild green Elves couldn't be so divorced from the reality of the seasons or the years and had to act on the world and with the world so an early coming of age would not necessarily be ridiculous to them.
By the time Elwing gets married at 30 something to Earendil it was likely obvious that they had some mannish inheritance but that they might not live forever wasn't even clear to the Valar, so again, Cirdan just let a little foresight and practicality rule. "The girl is an orphan, so she has no parents to object to an early union, but she has obviously blossomed and is wise beyond her years as is Earendil and they want to marry. The time is now as things are moving and we need to ensure the future."
As for the disappointment factor, I think we can easily give this an in universe answer. The records were lost as the only source of the battle were the surviving witnesses who saw very little and knew less. To a child like Elwing, they were taken unawares was her answer because that's what she knew. What happened was beyond her knowledge and the abandonment of her brothers in the forest was Maglor's tale, and I don't accuse him of lying, but I don't blame him for not elaborating either.
Now your take on the IRL reason is sound and in line with my own thoughts; Tolkien just never got around to finishing his life's work, so Christopher did as much as he could and wisely backed off on the rest.
But I would add this thought too. Tolkien was a scholar of Anglo-Saxon everything... language in particular but culture too. He knew what was missing from the narrative, what had been lost and deliberately destroyed. What he and the rest of his people had left of their national story, the bits and bobs of cultural inheritance. Beowulf was epic, but that was all and so it makes sense that he might inadvertently copy that frustration and loss with his own narrative. We don't get all the answers, because Middle earth is real. Its past is real. And there are blanks and breaks and dark ages and mysteries and things that people don't talk about because it still hurts too much "[Bombadil] seemed to remember something sad. .. 'Fair was she who wore this on her shoulder, and we will not forget her.' " FotR.
"Someday, they will leave and I will return!" Overheard by Gandalf from Beorn, Hobbit.
So it would be in keeping with history that we never get the entire picture. There is often something missing, or several points of view or multiple reasons that this event happened this way.
Elves had magic, so who is to say that the bad boys of the Feanoreans didn't conjure up a deep fog to hide themselves from discovery? They were expert trackers, finding the path back to the nest is tracking 101. Then break through the door as the guards are changing and you are inside.
Finally it's no shame to Dior that he is facing 3 hardened veteran warriors and managed to kill them but not live through the process, anymore than it taking both Elendil and Gil-galad to take down Sauron and them both dying in the process.
So I leave you with that. Again, great video.
I agree about the blanks being almost deliberately left in order to mirror somewhat our own historical dark ages. How many great Anglo Saxon heroes missed out in having their take song simply because no one was there to write it down. This technique almost adds an air of historical realism.
So maybe there is a lost tale about the epic struggle between Dior and the sons of Feanor.
And I also wondered about his mortality and his rights the life rule the elves. The more I think about it and the more you read the Silmarillion the more the differences between men and elves becomes blurred. Biologically they are the same species but with a different metaphysical destiny. At this stage the elves haven’t really worked out men yet. So I think it’s a case, ( and this sounds very modern) if you identify as an elf and have some justification they will accept you as one).
@@condelevante4 self- identifying? That very well may be. In the Silmarillion, while Idril should also be accounted as an Elven princess lost to her people, it is said that Tuor is accounted among the Elves, due to his great love for them (and frankly, he never knew his mortal parents or family and was raised exclusively among the Elves). However, we are told in nearly the same breath that not even the Valar can override the Gift of the One to Men. So when Earendil and Elwing are allowed to break the Ban, they clearly come as a new hybrid species ... long lived mortals? Immortals that will age but not die? The thought was that these children will inherit the condition of the mortal parent, but maybe the condition of the father, like inheriting ones sex. If the father is mortal, so are you (eventually). Or it could be that immortality is the dominant gene, and so if either parent is immortal, then you will also inherit extremely long life, a functional immortality, which allows Eru and thru Him, Manwe, to allow choice to the original half- Elven and those descended in the first generation from an Elf. Which is why once Elros chooses mortality, he alone is given 500 years more, but the rest of his descendants have a life thrice that of all other Men (they inherit the condition of their father) Mortality remains in Elrond's genes and cannot be swept away but he is now an Elf and his children can either chose to die, because any Elf can die, but to follow the path of Men or simply remain an Elf (their father's condition). A Man cannot choose to be Elf, but Eru may grant additional life to Man, but short of immortality.
So this way, it is perfectly fair for Elros to bind his children without them having further choice, (once mortal always mortal, and there was no new infusion of Elf blood, since Elros and all the rest married other mortals) but allowing Elrond's immediate offspring to choose for themselves, since at the beginning, Elrond was as likely to be mortal as immortal and any Elf can give up their life if they wish and their mother was an Elf, only makes sense).
Then back to Tuor and Idril, I believe that Idril in Mandos, was offered the right of Luthien, to accompany Tuor beyond the confines of the World, because they were both drowned trying to reach Valinor. I also believe that Dior's wife would have been given the same offer (but it may not be possible to give Dior the same choice, because he was like say Eldarion, already mortal born). But it is also in my headcanon that Tuor was allowed a great span of life in Valinor before they would both leave beyond the confines of Arda. It would allow them to see their son again. I may write it all out someday.
Interestingly enough in The Nature of Middle-Earth book, Tolkien wrote that Elves typically avoided having children in times of peril, which basically describes the entire history of Beleriand after Morgoth returns.
@@istari0 absolutely and I forgot to address that! Thank you!!
Because that would have stopped all procreation for several hundred years. However, again, I believe that the little known or examined Green Elves and the rest of the Avari would have changed in response to the pressures of a swiftly changing world, not to mention they had fewer resources overall and far less wisdom or even the higher technology of the Noldor in general & Teleri/Sindar under Thingol & Melian. They didn't even have lembas! So what do they do? They have to adjust to survive...even if their physiology won't and can't change (I doubt they can so much as freckle in the Sun) their culture to survive can.
@@marieroberts5458 you bring up some really interesting examples and questions. Why do the decedents of Elrond have a choice whereas the decedents of Elros don’t? Both marry the kind in accordance with their choice. It can’t be purely materialistic, in that there is a gene or something.
It seems to me that while men have the Gift of Eru, elves don’t. Those who choose to be of elf kind do not become 100% elves. Instead they are counted as an intermediate state - halfelves. I have seen a letter, one of Tolkiens lasts, when he corrects a fan who mentioned Arwen as being an elf, stating that she was of the halfelven who later became mortal. So I think that where for example the sons of Elrond where to marry elves their children would be half elves with the choice of becoming mortal. Maybe where they to leave middle earth and go to Valinor and meet an elfmaiden there, they would finally be counted as fully elven and their children would no longer have a choice.
For sure the halfelves where part of Erus plan since the music, and so the two kinds were to be the same species but with different destinies.
Rumours that dior also founded a fashion house. May be exadurated.
The Google advertising algorithm made the same connection, as it showed an ad for said fashion house before the video.
@@tominiowa2513 ha
🤣🤣
*Exaggerated
😂😂😂😂
Thingol calls in some dwarves to put the cursed Silmarils into cursed necklace lol. Your narration is freaking awesome top notch. ♥️♥️♥️
Thank you!
The Nauglamir comes with a free frogurt!
The frogurt is also cursed.
22:00 Considering that he is half human, 1/4 elf and 1/4 demigod, I think that his life would be very, VERY long. Elros, who was a descendant of 2 half elven families lived almost half a millennia. In Dior´s case, I´d add a solid few centuries on top of that.
Also, using online gaming slang, I´d say that all the other characters around him kept powercreeping, and he just stayed in his stock form.
Dior: "I'm gonna make Doriath great again!" *becomes sloppy, gets rekt*. Exit stage left
I've had similar thoughts on Dior, but more forgiving. I think there is a huge untapped potential in the character, and a great story that we just don't know about. So instead of disappointment it's more endlessly teasing... and with how new Tolkien notes are consistently published, I still hold out a sliver of hope we'll get a little more on this character. He should be epic. And maybe he was epic, just didn't have his story told yet. I also agree that he had to have been human, since Luthien had also become human when he was born. Which would then technically make Elwing as much of a half-Elven as Earendil. One of Thingol's later redeeming traits (before his steep decline) was newfound fondness for humanity, Beren's plight really seemed to move him, especially how he tries to do good by Turin. But yeah, a kingdom of Elves ruled by a human has so much potential. Perhaps Dior was attempting to unlock powers from his Maiar heritage, like how Luthien had some unusual powers, and recreate the Girdle? Maybe there was a treacherous group within Doriath who object to a human, and young/inexperienced, ruler, and they let the Feanorians in and gave them aid before knowing it would lead to another kinslaying, and a few regret what they see and are responsible for Elwing's rescue/survival? I see these stories as still could have taken place, even if they weren't detailed.
I agree there does seem to be an unfinished quality about this section, but it does kind of add to the sense that at this stage everything is just going downhill irrevocably with no way to stop it, and helps build up a feeling of despair for the Elves, which turns around when we get to Earendil, so it at least manages to serve the narrative in that way (IMHO).
Good explanation. It makes sense. The Curse of Morgoth on Hurin's family meets the Curse of Mandos. No way that was ever going to end well.
Another “Unfinished Tale” ? Hahah get my pun?
I have always associated Dior with the elves, especially as Elwing claims them as her people from the beginning and is somewhat indicated to have been immortal. This I actually have no problem with at all.
The saddest part to me was the vanishing of the very young uncles of Elrond and Elros. It seems that even the sons of Feänor saw this as going too far and attempted to reverse course in the middle of the stream. Sadly it was too late and the boys vanished into the myths of history, and likely down the gullet of an eldricht horror.
The story of dior always gave me the impression of being a fragment form a longer tale, as if maybe there was a poem or song about the attack, siege and sack and the death of Dior, all we have left is the facts not the sonf which once described them. Thanks GNG and keep up the good work.
I have an ancestor who was at the center of a story that was very popular and intriguing to British people around 1610 or so. He would have been a household name at the time, everybody heard the story and dramatizations of it were made of it, incl by Shakespeare.
But the funny thing is, the dramatizations of the story remain, but to find an actual comprehensive account of the actual events requires combining several sources, and there are many unknowns. A story that captured an entire country for a time, but much can be lost, and is, even with popular stories, over time
@@buttlord4204 These were things well known to the professor, he incorporated that in his stories, thanks to his genius, he done so convincingly.
Brilliantly put. I’ve always felt like Dior got very short shrift too, but you crystallized the reasons for me very well. Another candidate (or pair of candidates) for near-miss character(s) in Tolkien would be Elladan and Elrohir.
I'd say your assessment of why Dior goes so underdeveloped is probably right on the money, although by my own estimation he also is stuck with the unenviable position of needing to exist in order for Elwing and Eärendil to be about the same age, yet also needing to die in time for Doriath to collapse on schedule and for Elwing to be a refugee in the Havens of Sirion rather than a princess in Menegroth. His life and death could certainly have been a bit more dramatic, but they still likely would have played out about the same way. One could perhaps make the case for his squandered potential being a statement on how even those born into great circumstances can be laid low by fate and a handful of poor decisions or something, but that seems like a bit too much of a stretch to me.
Thank you for this video - I have long felt Dior was such a 'question mark' in the Legendarium. His parentage is so legendary, the events surrounding his upbringing and rise to power are so significant, and yet Dior seems to have been relegated to the role of a stopgap between more important characters; his only function in the narrative was to father more important people in history.
That never sat well with me, & I have struggled to accept it. The sense of loss in the Silmarillion should be even more hefty had Dior & his situation only been fleshed out a bit more to allow the reader to invest in them.
A human(?) in his mid-thirties slaying THREE of the Sons of Feanor during the Second Kinslaying that ruined Doriath?!?! That deserves so much more exploration.
30 elf years probably. Also even 30 spent being raised by Beren, Lúthien, Thingol and Melian and others of the realm would make you prime at a young age to achieve anything.
One has to wonder what would've happened had Dior answered the Feanorians, Maedhros specifically, as he was the eldest.
-----
"Come and get your prize, if you dare". The curt reply would have read.
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I envision Dior, in a glade bathed with sunlight, on the borders of his realm, surrounded by a small retinue. He is wearing the Nauglamir. In the distance, a rustling rumor can be heard growing amongst the trees, as of many armoured feet marching, determined and heedless of obstacles. Dior raises a bejeweled hand to quiet the murmurs of dismay echoing behind him. Before long a tall silhouette emerges in the clearing from the underbrush. Deep Red locks clasped in silver braces fanning across broad shoulders. Steel covered shoulders... Others stride forth, six altogether, formed in a wedge behind their leader. Night and gold and flame. The sons of Fëanor have come.
Dior flexes his left hand in a fist around the pommel of Aranruth, Thingol's blade, before breathing in deep to settle his burgeoning anxiety. His gaze goes beyond the brethren, noting the glint of many mails in the shadows of the forest. He then focuses back on his 'guests', as they advance.
Maedhros and his brothers slowly advance, then stop, arrested at the sight before them. The King of Doriath stands tall, shimmering in the pale morning. The finely woven scales of his hauberk are made of mithril, which reflect the light coming off the jewel set amidst the necklace around his throat. Maglor stiffles a cry. The man before them is more like a lord of the Maiar than one of the Eldar.
Then their host raises a hand and says.
"I do not welcome you, sons of my people's enemy." The voice rings clear yet the accusation hangs heavy in the air.
"And yet, we are here at your invitation Lord." Maedhros replies smoothly while bowing, gloved hand closed across his chest. He catches a muffled curse escaping Curufin's lips behind him.
"Silence!" He rasps, before turning his attention towards the Sindar. The king takes a few steps forward then stops again before retorting.
"Only to seize that which you had not the courage to gain otherwise!"
Maedhros studies his counterpart for a moment. The brow is proud and the hand firm. 'This half-breed does not lack courage, for all his foolishness' He thinks to himself, marking how few attendants the man has.
"Surrender what is rightfully ours Lord, and you shall hear no more of the sons of Fëanor."
The king's hand goes up, briefly touching the jewel around his neck, before he beckons to one of the Sindar at his side. He then unclasps the glittering necklace and gently lays it down in a carven box opened before him, motioning his servant forward.
As Maedhros receives the small coffer Dior says.
"May you have the wisdom to leave it behind you, prince of the Noldor." Maedhros glances up sharply.
"This thing is cursed..." Dior adds, doleful "...by the Lords of the West, and by the blood of all those who have died at your hand!"
Maedhros becomes aware of the uncomfortable heat coming off the casket.
"They say you are the most reasonable of the brethren" Dior continues "Can you not sense for yourself that all claims you once had on this jewel are now extinct?"
"Kill this dark elf Brother!" Urges Celegorm in a loud whisper to his right. Maedhros raises his steel fist, commanding silence; a sheen of sweat forming on his brow as he tightens his grip. The voice of the Sindar king is relentless, almost pleading.
"You can break the Curse, son of Fëanor, but only if you chose to abandon your prize."
Oh boy, always improves the day a bit when something new comes out on this channel.
Dior also struck me as a major disappointment. A few thoughts (all speculative, obviously):
1) As far as his mortality goes, Dior was born to Luthien after she became mortal, so maybe that’s why he’s fully mortal and appeared to have no Choice, even though Elros and Elrond later do.
2) That may also be why Tolkien needed to include Dior in the line: he needed both sides of the Elwing/Eärendil match to be half-elven, but Dior was effectively fully mortal, so Tolkien couldn’t pair Tuor and Idril’s child directly with Beren and Luthien’s once Luthien became mortal. (Honestly, with that heritage, I’d expect Beren and Luthien’s child to have been Eärendil, but then he wouldn’t have had a parent who was elven at, to be indelicate, the time of conception.) I also suspect that Tolkien really, really wanted Beren and Luthien’s only child to be a son, just to avoid messy succession problems.
3) Melian leaving explains Dior’s easy fall to me. No one left in Doriath, probably not even elves, could remember a time without the Girdle. I imagine those in Doriath didn’t know all the ways it had guarded them through the years, and that Thingol was not generous with knowledge about it; as such, most of those in Doriath were unprepared for defensive war without it. A mortal life like Dior’s, even with what knowledge he could get from his mother, simply left no time to prepare for its loss.
4) Thank goodness Tolkien tells us about Eldarion’s successful reign. Without that, based on Dior’s precedent, I’d assume he died miserably in some traitorous revolt.
You are absolutely correct. I noticed this many years ago, but Dior gets a big spot--and even the "Thingol's Heir" epithet listed--in the Elven family tree . . . and then he's just forgettable. 🤷♂️
Haha! You did it!
Someone has actually made content focused on Dior for the first time!
And fittingly, that content is mostly me whining about how little there is worth focusing on 🤣🤣
@@GirlNextGondor
God it's true
@@GirlNextGondor
Hahaha call Oda Mae so we can "ask" sir John
Dior's most important actions were that he married very early and rapidly had children at an age where most Elves haven't even matured into adulthood (which shows the influence of his mortal heritage).
Forever earning his place in posterity by being unexpectedly fecund 😅
@@GirlNextGondor Basically. It's really the only important thing he did.
Like you, I was disappointed. Here he was, the first child to combine Elf, Man and Maiar and hella goodlooking to boot. And this is it?
@@margaretalbrecht4650 Well, that just happens. Since when being a descendant of a great person guarantees greatness? Looking back at our own history, how many descendants of great rulers/conquerors were actually great?
Also, I kinda feel bad for the man, all this pressure: "you're the son of THE Beren and THE Luthien, your grandparents are THE king of Doriath and Melian THE freaking Maia, so you HAVE to achieve greatness and awesomeness!" Ugh, just get stuffed. Go be full of expectations elsewhere and let me be normal.
@@Tyresio12Except Tolkien's world tends not to work like that.
"I really doubt if Dior has been raised on a diet of tofu and pacifism" one of the many great asides.
When I see GirlNextGondor pop up on my YT notifications, I know it will be a good day! Thanks for another great explanation. I love your style.
I'd like to imagine that he had the foresight that the events had to play this way, Elwing fleeing with The Sil. The Silmaril went to Valinor and Morgoth was defeated after all.
Chilling!
Weather intentional or not I do like how anticlimactic certain parts of the silmarilian are. It's not really good fiction but it makes it feel more realistic to me
More like a summary of a real-life mythology.
Agree - it's messy like real life.
That's why I love Tolkien while still disliking almost all other fantasy fiction. It's more realistic and more tragic and provides more mystery.
I love how you seem to despise Dior as much as I despise Turin
I have always filled in the blanks with an epic three on one duel between Dior and the three Feanorian A-holes deep in the halls of Menegroth. As for the status of Dior the Fair, prior to the judgements of Mandos & Manwe regarding the Half-Elven, the kindred assigned to a particular half-elf seems to be related to who you identify with, hang out with and live with as a matter of circumstance or disposition. I also don't know how to feel about a mortal Elven King ruling over subjects who will blink once or twice before he has left the circles of Arda in the twinkling of an eye.
Why is anyone still following the Feanorians after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears? Aren't they radioactive at this point? I never got why they were not pariahs at this point. The Kin slaying is no longer a secret. They stir up trouble everywhere they go. As great as they are when in a fight with the minions of Morgoth, they are otherwise a health hazard to be avoided. On the other hand, it would have been cool of Dior to bring Curufin and the Feanor bros on over to Menegroth and invited them each, in turn, one at a time to come and take their father's treasure, if it would have them. If not, and some naughty body elves have unclean hands, then Doriath's finest archers are even now waiting to dispose of the unworthy...who's first?
Great idea! 😁👍
"As for the status of Dior the Fair, prior to the judgements of Mandos & Manwe regarding the Half-Elven, the kindred assigned to a particular half-elf seems to be related to who you identify with, hang out with and live with as a matter of circumstance or disposition."
How so? Dior was the first of the Peredhil, and thus there would be nothing to go on prior.
I remember reading the Silmarillion when I was 14 or so, and I had just this nagging feeling that the story of Dior was missing fundamental elements, just the ones listed in this video. Is he mortal now, being the son of a mortal? If yes, would the sindar in doriath accept mortal nobility? And wouldn't his project of resurrecting Doriath not be doomed from the beginning, bordering on necromancy as it appears to be? And why is this character introduced and killed in the span of a few pages?
Eventually, I settled on the idea that given that other half-elves apparently got to choose and Dior was the first of them (a prototype, as it were), the concept of choice between elven and mortal status had not been invented yet by the Valar (or they had not inquired about it at upper management :D ) and he was 'elvish upon revocation', but that wasn't really satisfying either. I wasn't aware of the history of the simarillion at the time, but this whole part of the story felt almost as dissatisfying as the war of wrath to me.
Have I been dissapointed? Thingol more than Dior. He ignores the counsel of a maiar, his wife, completely. She did not just plant trees, landscaping a few thorn bushes, she enchanted and Sustained Protection that repeled Ungolianth and Morgoth both. She bound herself with limitations because she loved Thingol. ...and he ignores her advice.
As to Melian simply leaving everyone high and dry...her incarnation in the form of a physical Child of Illuvatar came about from her relationship to Thingol. With him dead, indeed a Change came over her. She required him to keep that form. The Girdle was made in part through the magic of their relationship, without him or her, its protective magic ended. No she didn't just abandon her people. She couldn't maintain that form or being or access that magic. In the real world you would not believe the number of family owned businesses that fail or become a ghost shadow of its former self when one or the other spouse dies. It is a real thing. I simply see it reflected in this story. A couple of brothers I know inheirited their father's hotels and restaurants. It took less than ten years before both were homeless. Fortunately this isn't universal, but it happens way too often. Dior isn't too far away from that, attempting to sustain and rebuild something only a maiar in love could bring into being. He might have had more success (in my imagination) had he called in Tom Bombadil or had married Goldberry instead of Tom marrying her.
As to Dior being purely human...I'd have to imagine that having maiar ancestry changed the equation being that close to the original source even if he parents were an exceptional case. Consider even generations removed Imrahil sustained some elven traits and attributes for another example. Sometimes those things seem to skip a generation. Reminds me of Dutch friends... All of Dave's brothers and sisters have white blond hair. He has the same features as them but black hair and skin that tans so much he's been identified as Hispanic (thank the Moors of Africa for that). Were it not his resemblance to his father (except for coloring) one might have thought the delivery man had a hand.
My take away from all of this... Don't accept a silmaril and whatever you do, don't fight over it.
What might have happened if Dior had simply given it to the sons of Feanor? It might have killed them without Dior having to do anything. Oh well.
What gets me is...could the Dwarves touch it to place it in the necklace without effect?
Good analysis, I always appreciate your videos. I think one point you’re missing with Dior that I think could easily be inferred is his reason for holding onto the Silmaril. It’s what he has left of his parents. It’s how he found out they died. It’s his connection to his grandfather, and it’s the guys who abused his parents and wronged them who are demanding it. I don’t think any curse or ill omen would have persuaded him to let it go to the Feanorian jerks. And I don’t think he held onto it out of greed. Even if it was sentimentality, it’s something we can at least understand and show him empathy for not wanting to give it up to his parents’ enemies. Unfortunately, I do think he is the sad result of a part of the story that was extremely underdeveloped. I do think Tolkien had more to give us on his story, but he sadly never got around to it, as you rightly point out.
Morgoth is pretty dumb for being too distracted by Luthien shaking her hips to realise she is singing a magic "Sleep, Go Bye-Bye" song. 😂😂
🤣 it's a classic case of 'you caught me monologuing,' except it's ogling....
🤣🤣
If you'd kept yourself in an iron dungeon for hundreds of years thinking of nothing but destruction, hatred and revenge a pretty dancing elf might distract you. First, the fact she got there, second, her
It's a solid irony. Of course that is what distracts him and costs him a Silmaril. Dance and song. That is the kind of living being he refuses and denies to have in his realm.
And when you think about it, what does, what can distract a tyrant? Especially pretty young women dancing is the first thing you might think of. For all their cunning men are simple beings, so there's a lesson there
Thanks, lexi .
To be fair, he was 35 when he died and the Silmaril was just a shiny rock his parents died for. Personally, I would've thrown it in the face of the 1st Noldo I saw - until I recall what a-holes Celegorm or Curufin were to his parents. You'd think they'd get a clue when even the Dog left!
Never thought about Dior this much before but just goes to show that even something as beautiful as the Silmarillion isn’t perfect! Well analyzed!!
I wouldn't necessarily have expected for Dior to go out in a blaze of glory when I read the chapter. What I notice now is that unlike the heroes and heroes turning kings of Middle-Earth, he didn't really achieve his position in life by his own deeds, he simply inherited it... I feel like he lacked something in order to thrive, whether it were some life lessons you'd survive, a willingness to overcome complacency, or a guiding figure for counsel...
Great points as usual. I guess he had limited chances while there was peace in Ossiriand and Doriath. Once he had the chance to establish himself in war, he died instead. Lexi did a great job of making me dislike Dior.😅
The passion you express for the lit, whether pro (in most cases) or con (in this) is well understood by other academics like me! I always enjoy your explanations, elaborations, and even the occasional ("It's not fair!) rants. Thanx very much for entertaining me!!!
My disappointment has always been aimed at more Doriath in general. It was purportedly this big powerful realm that largely sits out the wars with Morgoth and should therefore be getting stronger as others get weaker. Then a few dwarves randomly kill the (poorly guarded) king, Dior shows up, and a few years later the Sons of Fëanor, who based on their wars should be diminished to a tiny rag tag wandering army, just wipes out the rest. Like Morgoth didn’t have to do anything and Doriath like you said was ineptly defended. At least Gondolin, arguably the only more powerful Elven stronghold, went down in a badass fight against the greatest host and technology yet assembled. Doriath just has a fraud and disappointing feel.
I agree that a lot of Dior just never got fleshed out, but his arc being a letdown kind of makes sense. His introduction is rather opposite Aragorn’s. In Aragorn we meet a rascally dirty looking man from the wild who never knew his dad and rises to King Elessar. Dior we see as fair, but he lets us down. I think his story, or lack thereof, is a story of appearances being deceiving and the magnitude of the Doom of Mandos.
I think that, in terms of _Realpolitik_, Doriath was just too dependent on the Girdle of Melian, to the point where all its other defenses were just for show.
I’m with you there. Especially about Doriath. Like, it’d be even more poetic that it’d ultimately only be able to fall when the monumental War Of Wrath came about. That something if even more monolithic stature that sunders the land of Beleriand so much that barely any of it remains in tact except places like Lindon etc. alternatively if the girdle didn’t fully break or regained itself after Beren’s main story played out that it could have possibly been a stronghold throughout the War Of Wrath which took 80 years(maybe even 80 elf years if we want to make it more epic)
@@akatsukami9578meanwhile it’s the greatest realm around. The height of elvendom upon Arda which should mean their prowess and the land itself matches the “unmatched” essence of the 1000 caved realm of Doriath which all of it was hand crafted out from the natural world itself. Showing yet again their close bond with nature as they are one in the same with it. Hence even Legolas can walk ontop of the show etc. “feet as light as Lindon leaves”
I'm late to the party with this video, but you nailed everything off with Dior lol! His whole story and choices are just... why!? He could have been so much more. And he ends up raising so many questions about the nature of the half-elven. xD
I think I get so salty about him because all the other peredhil have my undying devotion. By comparison he's not just uninteresting, he becomes an affront 🤣
What a great analysis! I agree with the idea that Dior had tremendous potential. I actually think he should have lived on as an elven king into the third age. He could have been a tremendous foil to Sauron, especially when you consider his lineage. Can you imagine the kind of respect Elrond's grandfather would command?
Also, there is another character that feels dumb and underwritten: Finduilas. She was a quasi-love interest for Turin Turambar, but gets lead off as a prisoner of war and dies nailed to a tree trunk. It felt like she was just used in a disposable fashion but I think her character should have had a greater destiny. Some elvish deception magic was definitely in order, or at least a demise a bit more eventful than just some basic orc brutality.
I truly hope one day you or someone as dedicated as you are to making these characters make sense has a significant role to play when bringing said characters to screen versions.
22:34 I think you are spot on here.
And I agree Dior is one of those characters who fairly SCREAMS should have a real story, but never got it, at least not in the way it coulda/shoulda been.
This was so fascinating to watch. Totally agree with your analysis. Amazing stuff!
Ah, there's nothing like a new GNG video to keep me company as I perform my weekly service to the domain of Ulmo (read: do the water changes on the aquariums). Thanks, Lexi!
Dior? A disappointment?
There is NO BIGGER disappointment then the Sons of Feanor.
They were the biggest failures in Elvendome. Wasted lives of potential triumph and achievement above the complete failure of their Father and Grandfather and Grandmother.
The whole line of Feanor is a sad disappointment by the tragic flaws Tolkien gives them all.
Just my opinion.
Hey now, Celebrimbor lived up to his potential as a very handsome flag.
They are not boring at least
I have personally never cared much for Dior but I do find it strange and puzzling how the Doriathrim and Menegroth could’ve been caught completely off guard by the Feanorians.
Besides all the reasons you mentioned you would assume that at least a small portion of Doriath’s population would have been living in the forest surrounding Menegroth, would’ve caught wind of the intruding Feanorian army and sent a warning to Dior at least a few hours before the Feanorians reached their Capital city.
The only other example in the fiction I've read is Raditz from Dragon Ball.
Raditz alone transformed the series from a wacky martial arts manga into a sci-fi space opera. He introduced a galactic-sized threat into the fold, and things got HUGE from then on. He's the older brother of the protagonist, a villain who wants to force his brother into becoming a mercenary for a galactic overlord. He is denied, he is killed... and then nothing is done about him henceforth. He's just an afterthought on the grand scheme of things, even though he should have been SO much more...
Your dad may be national honor society in college with a master degree with a All pro NFL career and mom may be a doctor with multiple gold medalist in track and field and multiple platinum albums on the music scene that doesn’t mean that even if you inherited their genetics you’ll be anywhere near successful. Life’s just odd like that.
Dang good video loved it bless you for this channel
On the matter of Dior's aging, I think that's a tough one to say for certain. I mean, the only First Age human whose entirely natural death is described in detail is Beor the Old, who lived to the ripe old age of 93....even without any "anti-aging" effects as the result of being half elven & quarter Maiar.
Dior reminds me of Dick Halloran in The Shining (played by Scatman Crothers in the movie). The whole movie you think he’s going to rescue Danny Torrance and then -wham-! Axe in the back.
Dior’s potential is played up specifically to set up our expectations that he will succeed.
Interesting take, and one I can't really argue with. Admittedly, I never really thought much or paid much attention to Dior since he occupies such a minimal role in The Silmarillion, but now that you point it out... Yeah, he's a hotspot of missed potential. I have no doubt that Tolkien would have expanded on this topic if he'd had more time to... you know, live. Since the entire Legendarium outside of The Hobbit/TLotR was essentially a work-in-progress, I can't help but wonder what Dior's story would have looked like if it had been developed in full.
Dammit, if there's one Man who should have been allowed to forgo the Gift of Ilúvatar and break the bonds of mortality, it was Professor Tolkien!
I don't think Dior keeping the Silmaril was a mistake - ultimately, it was necessary for Earendil to reach the Undying Lands.
Then again, you could argue it was a bad idea with good consequences like Feanor leaving Valinor.
As for details about what characters should have done, I think it's too easy to pick much of the Silmarillion apart by pointing out those kinds of flaws (like Fingon and Maedhros having 0 communication before the Nirnaeth, or the Feanorians leaving behind the Palantiri in Valinor, or Melkor not trying to get the lost Silmaril back even though he covets them so and is so proud).
We have very little information and ultimately it's an unfinished fictional mythology - everyone's free to choose their own approach, but I prefer to take the text as is and reserve judgment on account of the genre and our lack of knowledge, rather than looking for problems and disappointing myself.
But maybe I'm just tired of questions about the Eagles not flying the Fellowship anywhere.
Disappointment or whatever, King Dior did take three of the Sons of Fëanor with him. Hard to survive such, being only 35.
The only logical conclusions are that Dior was *incredibly* talented at combat, he shared his mom's magic sleepytime powers, or the Feanorians were throwing the fight because they were fed up of Oath-ing.
@@GirlNextGondor
Maybe a mix of the first two.
Outstanding move on the Professor's part, having Dior die young so he didn't have to burn more brain cells figuring Dior's (im) mortality, (lack of) aging, and so on.
And probably not the last, since people tired of Oath-ing would have spared Elwing's blameless brothers their wrath.
@@zimmerwald1915
Toddlers were still left in the forest to rot.
@@pedrovargas2181 indeed. Hence I don't buy that the Feanoreans had had their fill of Oath-ing at the time they did that.
Another video!
Let's be honest, Tolkein wrote A LOT and didn't get enough time to properly flesh out things like Dior's character.
22:00 Everything said in that section of the video, I have always had the same impression: that Dior was an Elf in an earlier version and Tolkien never got around to changing him to fit the story. This is the first video where I heard someone else say it.
I do enjoy your analyses, and seldom have anything to add to them, so take this as an observation rather than a discussion. You lay out well that Dior has everything needed to be an epic character. Tolkien, like any writer, can do what he wants with the creations of his mind, so what you offer is truly valid. Here are my Things to Think About (TTAs). Dior strikes me as having too damn MUCH! He's gorgeous, he's capable (mostly), he's educated, he's wise (usually), his lineage is perfection, his family ties are irreproachable. If he was a horse he'd win the Triple Crown. He even gets hung with one critical weakness--he's mortal, although nobody, least of all Dior himself, seems to mind. I wonder if, in the process of Dior's creation, Tolkien might not have had any idea what to do with someone who's just too perfect? Compare him for a second with Thorin, who could have been the greatest of all the Dwarves but for his personal weaknesses. A writer has a lot to work with in a character like Thorin.
Looking from another angle, let's pretend Dior lives in OUR world just for a second. His parents are super successful artists, film stars and sports champions who also have backgrounds as war heroes and successful jewel thieves. Here's a truism, kids of overachieving parents seldom reach the same levels of success. Some do--but all too many don't. Tolkien was a smart and usually highly insightful man. He already had one Parsifal in Glorfindel. We don't know a whole lot about him either. We know what he did and how well he did it, but little about him as a character central to a story. Perfection is damn hard to write about. Tolkein did Dior well by building in enemies, curses, and quests both foreign and domestic; but even the most brilliant writers do run out of ideas. My conclusion is that Dior might just be a victim of a dry spell in his creator's imagination.
I personally see Diors' story being a bit underdeveloped as the point. I remember while reading it, I thought part of the idea was that Dior had the potential to be the greatest elf/man ever, but because of the oath of Feanor, he is robbed of the world. He COULD HAVE been the savior of Doriath, but he decided to keep the Silmaril. That's the problem with the Silmarills. No one can refuse them, and that robs not only the world from their beauty but also the owners from the world.
👍🏼I agree, this i think is why elwing jumps off a cliff, she can not wholly refuse the silmaril but she can prevent any more violence being done for its sake.
With the sudden off-screen death I'm reminded of how we found out Bucky died in the original Captain America comic: a two panel flashback. Only, Bucky got a super-dark but super awesome comeback. Dior got... basically to be the least known person in his entire line. Harsh.
I think Fëanor's short stint in Middle Earth is the most disappointing thing in the Legendarium. Tolkien could have drawn him out until the 5th-6th Century of the First Age and gave him an epic battle where he defeats wave after wave of does until two dragons, three Balrogs, and Sauron finally kill him. He went out like an impulsive moron.
I have a theory (which I cannot confirm) that the continued existence of Dior was just a result of Tolkien's indecisiveness. He had written two falls of Doriath, one by dwarves, the other by elves and he didn't want to sacrifice either, similar to how he "cloned" Elrond when he could not decide if he should be lord of elves in Middle Earth or the king of Numenor. If not for this, I suspect Tolkien would have cut him out and made Elwing Beren and Luthien's daughter instead; I think he even calls Elwing their daughter in one writing, completely forgetting about Dior.
There is a in depth video that explains that there was an Elrond of Númenor as well as Elrond Peredhel and how the more closely finished product got to where it is now titled: Elros & Elrond: The creation of a king and accidental twins | Tolkien‘s Evolution. ❤. By The Red Book.
Lol. It sounds like JRR did a GRRM avant la lettre. GRRM recognized what JRR did here, and rán with it. 😂😜
Nice work thanks
I never understood why Dior was "needed" in the story. You could just cut him off, make Elwing the direct descendant of Beren and Luthien and the overall plot would not change that much. By adding him and subsequently killing him when he was young (by the reckoning of Elves and Men!), the strain of the Ainur in that bloodline is further diluted.
Seems like a character to be killed was part of the motivation to write him, add more personal drama to the second kinslaying
I feel like you might have answered your own question. Tolkien being a devout catholic might have deemed it necessary that there was an extra step between the divine and mortal. In greek mythology its frequently the sons or daughters of the gods that are the meaningful characters in the stories. But from the catholic point of view: who is the son of God? Jezus. And he is more perfect and divine(or at least portrayed as such) than the half gods of greek myth. I feel like Tolkien might not have wanted to portrayed his more critical characters on the same level as Jesus Christ.
@@TheBicycleRepairman2 I think there might have been a few moments, just after he had his first piece of toast in the morning, when Tolkien did not think first and exclusively of Catholic doctrine. As an ex-Catholic, I can assure you there is a difference between being devout and being an obsessive zealot.
Honestly, the only reason Dior is necessary is so that the 2nd kinslaying would have dramatic weight. But then he's such a cypher, so that doesn't work either...
This may seem strange to you, but I think Dior's existence was necessary to make Elwing half-Periain. Luthien chose to be a mortal, so technically Dior must have been fully Man, so when he married an Elf and she gave birth to Elwing, Elwing would be "Half-elven." Maybe that is not the case, but I don't think it is mentioned that Eönwë gave Dior a choice of which race he wanted to be.
Dior seems to me like the Western Roman emperor Majorian. Majorian is the last strong emperor of the West. He does the best he can for about 7 years reuniting the declining and fragmenting empire and getting the empire back into a position of power. But after a planned campaign to retake North Africa fails, he's betrayed and killed anti-climactically by his rival Ricimer. The Western empire falls shortly thereafter. If Majorian had lived, he might have been remembered as a great emperor along with Constantine and Aurelian. Dior's story seems like it was influenced by Majorian, and given the Roman and Byzantine (Eastern Roman) influences in Tolkien's work, I would not be surprised if he knew of Majorian and was influenced by that bit of history.
I’ve always viewed Dior’s existence to be entirely plot-service focused. He fathers Elwing (vs. Beren/Luthien doing so) so the timeline works for an Earendil/Elwing marriage, and then has no purpose. So his death is entirely in service as a minor but illuminating point of the Fëanorian plot line. The entire story of the Fëanorians would be a reasonable plot line for a multi-generational family of gangsters, a criminal enterprise started by an amazingly charismatic individual. Dior is plotline useless after Elwing…. and so why not make his death be an example of how boringly and disgustingly crude the evil of longtime gangsters become as time marches on?
Dior is simply a tool… Tolkien’s tool. A tool of a Tolk(ien)
Tolkien's work was always about the most common people achieving the greatest things if their values are good. So being highly born as Dior is doesn't actually mean anything... In the great plan of things, he is just another dude... 💁🏻♂️
Himbo tragedy
Nice rant! While I agree that it's just a case of not being fleshed out in the newer canon, I would like to point some things in addition to other excellent answers (such as the one by @marieroberts5458). Will try not to put all the thoughts down before it turns into a kingsize sheet of a post.
First: Winter offensives were not a thing for most of human history even in milder climates such as the Mediterranean one. As such, a winter attack could very easily catch someone by surprise.
Keeping that in mind, secondly, a problem that Doriath had as a kingdom was that it was a forest. Forest are very bad at providing food resources for a large population. I seem to remember reading (and if not it is inferred) that food resources came from the elves under Doriath's rule outside the forest (I would argue that Doriath was at its prime when Morgoth was still captive btw). The only reason I'm mentioning it is that, given the whole bruhaha before and the sad state of affairs in Beleriand in general, there was probably a dearth of stockpiled resources. That would make a prologned siege a nightmare for the besiegers and a death sentence for the besieged. Being stuck underground with no food and means of egress? Horrible death. So even if they had enough manpower to simultaneously fend off the orcs and co as they were doing even in Thingol's time and keep a full guard at the east and south (the Feanorians could have swung around a bit), their options were limited.
So why not give up Doriath altogether? Because no one, in the history of mankind (or elvenkind for that matter) ever does. For an example, the once mighty Byzantine Empire, by the time of the fall of Constantinople, was just Constantinople really. It was logically absolutely stupid to not just surrender. Yet they didn't. And I get it.
Lastly, well, we know he was handsome. We know he did a decent job as an administrator. That doesn't tell us anything about his strategic and tactical accumen (knowing how to fight and how to lead an army are completely different) or about how clever he really was. I'm not saying he was stupid, but did he have the extraordinary smarts that the situation required? Maybe he was more like his grandfather. Handsome, not a bad guy, but loads of arrogance and little forethought.
All in all, it could have been a noble, epic battle we never got the resources for as already mentioned. It could also very well be that he wasn't up to it. Or one of the gazillion guyswith potential in history that met an inglorious death. Without Melian the kingdom was doomed anyway (something I always blame Melian for) it just fell to the Feanorians and not the Orcs.
Have you considered the possibility of the influence of dragon-sickness on Dior's decision? _The Hobbit_ mentions "the power that gold has upon which a dragon has long brooded", and I recall that my reading of the _Silmarillion_ gave me the impression Glaurung cursed the treasure of Nargathrond (though I could be misremembering). While it seems to work off of preexisting greed, it could be that any motive to hoard it (such as spite against the people who tried to force your mother into marriage) is also manipulated.
Yeah, I remember reading SIlmarillion the first time and being really disappointed with Dior.
Here's what he should have done; agree to the sons of Feanor's demand, give them the Silmaril, but in exchange they and what's left of their people would become his vassals and live in Doriath. That way not only he avoids their threat, but also strengthen his forces, the sons of Feanor would use their skills to help rebuild Doriath, improving their armor and weapons, and becoming commanders of his armies. Sons of Feanor in exchange find a new safe home, and they would be able to defend Silmaril from Morgoth far easier than on their own. That would have been the best solution in my opinion. But I digress.
I would have liked if there would be a game like Shadow of Mordor/War set in the First Age (Shadow of Beleriand if you will), set after Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and one of the places we would visit would be Doriath, both before and after its fall (lets say the Fall of Doriath would be a DLC), letting us see Dior with Silmaril and Menegroth and everything. That would be so awesome^^
The Feanoreans could not do homage or give fealty to Dior, as he had had, however briefly, held a silmaril in his possession and they would need to slay him in wrath for that slight even had he surrendered it.
The problem of Dior (and Elwing) is no one, at the time, had any idea what would happen to them. Live forever like elfs in Ea or live a limited life and depart from Ea.
Elrod and Elros are forced to choose but before of them everyone of them have no need to choose anything in advance.
In fact, Tuor being counted as an elf because he is born between elves, raised by them, the first to get to the sea and the only man to hear the call of the sea and be directly addressed by Ulmo, marry Idril, being loved by all in Gondolin (but one), after the fall on Gondolin becomes the de-facto leader of the surviving Gondolindrim.
He is the only human having lived all his life between elves up to their standards and more and being accepted and loved by elves. So, it is not impossible a direct intervention from Eru to not divide him from the elfs he loved and loved him.
In fact, if we take for granted the Valar can not bow to their will the Sons of Iluvatar, this is always true. In Mandos too.
I think it is one of the instances where Tolkien wanted to remind the reader that someone can be sucsesfull or a complete disaster regardless of their bloodline. Dior, Sam, Finarfin and Tar-Palantir are great examples of this.
... in principle I agree, but I find myself asking, is Finarfin meant to be an example of a success or a disaster? 😅
@@GirlNextGondor I guess choosing the safety of Valinor and avoiding the senseless journey to Middle Earth at the same time can be called as a wise choice especially when you come later and fight with your brothers in War Of Wrath, sucsesfully overthrowing Morgoth while %90 of your people arent wise enough to get a similar position because of their inherent Noldorin ambition😄
The Red Boom did some really amazing stuff recently check out his recent episodes which are into their 20s now.
This may be a wild take but i really wish that Dior and Elwing's characters were like, just one singular elf. Ëarendil's bride being the child of Beren and Luthien feels a bit more, idk epic i guess? It's just so hard to care for a character who's literally only there to fill in a blank genealogy space, especially when his genealogy is actually interesting but then the character himself is not. Elwing at least does so much more than her dad
So you asked which character sort of disappointed me and the first one that came to mind was Glorfindel... he is underused in Lord of the Rings. I wanted him to leave Rivendell together with the Grey Company and join Aragorn and friends...
I also wanted more Glorfindel, but it would have been nearly impossible to use him. I might have liked seeing him leading a company of elves to fight at Gondor, but as I said in my comment above, "perfect" characters like GLorfindel are just too hard to write about.
@@DannyJane.He’s actually the one chosen to stick around and guide any of Mankind who wishes to connect with and listen to and converse with him. And first to be ready upon Dagor Dagorath which may or may not have happened yet since Arda is our Midgard etc. ❤
Never be the son or father of a great man. Your life will be disappointing.
I know this is a year late. But the reason Dior fails the test of the Silmaril, is because he is not free from it's doom the way Beren and Luthien became. Beren and Luthien, were in-fact subject to the doom of the Silmarils, and there-in died in the quest to achieve their possession. Even if they did not name it in desire, they "took" it. As you aptly discussed in your video on "was Maedhros right?" even taking a Silmaril makes you subject to the oath of the Feanorian's, and the doom of the Silmarils.
Beren and Luthien died because of the doom. But being set free from their bondage by Mandos, they became free from the doom of the Silmarils. The Doom of their second life, was greater than the Doom of the Silmarils set by Mandos, as he himself released them.
I would say that is one of the reasons why the name "release from bondage" exists. The curse lies upon the Silmarils, they are taken by the curse, and then released by the one who set it. Being released from the greatest curse and Doom ever wrought in history is a great freedom and release from bondage.
Curses and dooms are not typically Kin unto Kin unless specified. Dior was not subject to the doom of Beren and Luthien's second life. And was such not free from the curse of the Silmarils. The second he accepted it, his fate was sealed.
Arguably the same can be said about eElwing and Earendil. As Elwing attempted (Superslide) into the sea. But Ulmo intervened, and Earendil was released from his bonds by the Valar. If they had instead opted to do anything else but sail to Valinor, the doom would have fallen on them in time
I think too that Dior and Doriath's final destruction are to show the tragedy of lost promise and beauty, and how evil the Feanoreans had become.
Tofu! 😋
As weak as Dior's story is, even more so Nimloth. Is it even certain that she is an elf? It's also interesting to observe how these characters get treated in fan fic, Dior and Tuor and their wives all get rather short shrift. Odd since with less published about them, that leaves more room to invent. Thanks for another fun discussion!
The Silm index does clarify that she is an elf of Doriath. Not a tree. (Yes, really.)
@@EriktheRed2023 Thanks, missed that.
Can we have a similar video for Maeglin?
Similar in the sense that it will contain me ranting about wasted potential? All day long 😉 But in contrast to Dior Maeglin does have a decent arc/characterization by Silm standards.
@@GirlNextGondor Yes, let the rant spill forth!
Great vid as always. Dior wasn’t too bright. Just like his Grandad. Side kvetch, so Melian has SO little self worth as to flip out immediately upon Thingol’s death. Have thought this for nigh on 30 years. Same same for Arwen and Aragorn.
Foe me, the occasional random, pointless or awkard stuff (from a narrative point of view) in Tolkien's legendarium is one of the factors that make it feel like real history.
Dior is a character known to have a mortal destiny. Is his mortality due to the fact that both of his parents had mortal fate upon their return from Mandos, or is it a natural consequence of the union where, as a general rule, the father is human and mother is elf? I think Eärendil's situation may be similar to Dior.
Always been an interesting sub-story in Tolkien's lore.
I think beleg could of used a chapter of his own. He's one of my favorite characters and he gets done so dirty. Turin ruined any chance of his epicness
In this house we believe Beleg Deserved Better.
Beleg had already won epic battles before Turin took his life.
14:50 AND the cursed necklace & cursed jewel killed your Mum (“shined so brightly that it shortened her lifespan”) Dam jewellery was like a packet of cigarettes
Yeah definitely not fair, but I do wonder if Tolkien was simply disinterested in the character of Dior to an extent, or at the least possibly intended for the 'Fair' to be empty-headed and to rush to his doom. Though his stupidity in both versions (that where he tells off the Feanorians & the one where he ignores them) of the text, is baffling and just frustrating. There are indeed a number of unanswered questions about this character.
Nice. I feel like if the Hobbit and so then LOTR didn’t explode then like you say, the Dior story line may have carried forward the epic. Also - was Morgoths crown to big and heavy to carry off? I mean, if you’re doing a smash and grab heist best to boogie while everyone is snoozing and work out the details later. But of course that changes many other plot lines. Thank you again GNG. ☮️💟☯️
If it didn't have those splayed out points they could have rolled it. There is never a tire when you need one. But, like the lady said, that's fate for ya.
I mean the guy was like 40 ft tall and his crown was made of iron iirc. Plus, the guy was waking up.
Dior is indeed disappointing. It's not totally clear though that he's mortal. Luthien chose mortality, but she might have still passed on immortality. The Valar had not yet figured out what to do with the half elves, I don't think? Not until after the War of Wrath
Regarding his mortality, it seems a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy was in place.
Kinslay once, shame on you. Kinslay twice, shame on me.
I think he was ment to be the one to pledge for the two kindred in front of the powers... But then Eru saw that Ulmo was running a side plan of hiimself and thought: dam you Ulmo, now I have to kill Dior and use Earendil instead...
They come and they go. Some strong and some slow.
I always had the impression that Tolkien simply didn't spend the time necessary to develop Dior's story. It all seems unfinished somehow.