From your radar… that helicopter is inside class bravo, before that shoreline it starts ground. Past shoreline towards the waters starts 500+… that helicopter should have been on jfk tower frequency. It’s a popular path for ga aircraft’s from farmingdale or islip to the Hudson River sfra. I’ve flown that route once and was on jfk tower frequency even below the bravo at 300 feet close to the shoreline.
I'm a VFR pilot and fly the at or below 500ft corridor with JFK tower every time I depart FRG westbound. It's fast easy and fun. There definitely a little pucker factor dodging banner tows, helicopters and staying really low for just a minute if big jets are flying over to avoid wake turbulence. There was one incident a few years back where a new pilot got caught in wake turbulence, declared an emergency and landed at JFK.
@@nickm8882 Looking at the charts, assuming the visual is correct, they are just inside the surface bravo, just off the shore would be the above 500' bravo shelf so either way they were cutting it way close.
If the locations of the aircraft are accurate, the unknown aircraft (can we call it a UFO?) was on the inside of the class B airspace by a half mile or so. The TAC chart defines this space clearly as anything off the coastline is Class B above 500 feet, but anywhere inland (including where the UFO is indicating on the map in this video) Class B is from the surface up. So the UFO busted Class B airspace and had no business being that close. Whether the TCAS would have still signaled had it been where it should have been is unknown, although I'd expect the Jetblue to be under the glidescope if that were the case. At the beach, it'd be about 3.5 miles from touchdown. According to the video, the aircraft got the RA alert right over the beach, which would probably be at 1,100, giving it 600 feet of clearance over the UFO about a half-mile in front of it. I don't know enough about TCAS to know if it considers vertical speed in its calculations, but I imagine 600 feet is at least enough for it to alert pilots of some kind of conflict. Had the UFO been just off the beach, the aircraft would have been at about 1,400 feet above as it approaches (assuming it still alerts a half-mile out) which still may have given some kind of potential conflict alert but not enough for a full out RA alert. So I would say judging by the map which again I'm unsure is accurate or not, the unidentified aircraft deviated and entered bravo airspace without as much as a radio call and caused a traffic conflict.
@@Dan007UT Brevity is always the key to effective communication. May "aviation_nuts" learn from your concise recap. (Officiousness always demands laborious and pedantic overly detailed voluntary explanations.) Now...how is your pink eye? Wall-eyed? (Do we stand to your right or left?) Mr. Blinky?
Between the three New York airports the class bravo is massive. Throw in the Atlantic Ocean and this leaves very few alternatives for smaller airplanes. One of those alternatives is flying along the shore at less than 500 ft to transition to the north or south. This is not all that uncommon. There's little to no risk of collision however tcas is programmed with rules that work everywhere else and don't take one specific approach into consideration. If a rare go around is the worst of it, that's a small price we pay to live in a free country.
When each go around costs thousands of dollars, companies do in deed care. You just said there are very few paths of flight, therefore compounding the chance of a go around. Why not fix the issue instead of just letting it go until one unfortunate accident happens. What if the traffic didn't show on TCAS. What if the approaching planes TCAS failed. Oh but don't worry, it's only a rare occurrence, small price to pay I guess
@@BrentLobegeier Even without TCAS no risk of collision existed. TCAS protects an airspace within 15 seconds of collision in both forward and vertical directions: this is a huge volume that it will generate an RA for. That's because it's designed to prevent two airplanes doing 200 knots indicated straight at each other in the flight levels from colliding. A helicopter at 500 feet over the shoreline is not inside the ILS slope, which 61 nmi out is at 1500 feet all the way down (about 246 feet per mile) meaning the Airbus was likely at about ~760 feet crossing the shoreline. It's closer than you'd like to be, but provided people stay at or below 500 feet and outside the shoreline, a collision won't actually occur unless the approaching aircraft is doing a low visual approach, in which case they have to visually avoid traffic anyway. Believe you me, the FAA did the math when designing the airspace to be as safe as it can be without making it impossible for VFR aircraft to safely go around the Bravo. If it wasn't a part 121 operation with strict stabilized approach requirements, they could have even continued the approach after the RA.
I fly this transition often when leaving KFRG and duck really under final if there are big jets passing overhead. I never really considered that their TCAS might be set off - I'm mostly trying to stay well below the possible wake turbulence.
What is wrong with ATC in the US? Giving instructions to climb during a dynamic TCAS RA maneuver. If the DHL and Russian ac crash at the German border taught us anything, is to follow TCAS and disregard any ATC instructions…
Yes, but ATC is still required to give directions even if a craft is following RA instructions. What it sounded like here is ATC was giving instructions that would continue their approach. The pilot decided to abort approach and do a go-around. Likely that particular airline had that is as procedure for RA on approach given the speed at which the pilot decided to go-around.
@@ShiningDarknes so the USA left ICAO? According to ICAO DOC 4444 ATC must refrain from instructions during a TCAS RA. And of course they went around, the approach became unstable. My comment is not to bash the US ATC, I tend to find them quite good, but I just don’t get some things including this.
@@s3kmeth No dude I just don't feel like "arguing" with someone that clearly thinks they are better than everyone else. I was just having a conversation YOU decided to argue.
*ahem* I believe as other people in this comment section has mentioned "it's called freedom!" We are given the freedom to be a danger to ourselves and others, because that freedom is more important than the safety of our people, we've decided.
TCAS is a pretty amazing invention.
Oh yes.
I was going to say the same thing. Who knows how many lives it has saved.
The Discovery Channel. 😊
Indeed
You can thank the cooperation of the MITRE corporation and MIT Lincoln Labs.
Very professional pilots. Absolutely the pilots I would want.
From your radar… that helicopter is inside class bravo, before that shoreline it starts ground. Past shoreline towards the waters starts 500+… that helicopter should have been on jfk tower frequency. It’s a popular path for ga aircraft’s from farmingdale or islip to the Hudson River sfra. I’ve flown that route once and was on jfk tower frequency even below the bravo at 300 feet close to the shoreline.
I'm a VFR pilot and fly the at or below 500ft corridor with JFK tower every time I depart FRG westbound. It's fast easy and fun. There definitely a little pucker factor dodging banner tows, helicopters and staying really low for just a minute if big jets are flying over to avoid wake turbulence. There was one incident a few years back where a new pilot got caught in wake turbulence, declared an emergency and landed at JFK.
There is a tendency to say "nothing has ever happened, so it won't" This could have been a major disaster.
It happened on Oct 9, 2021
why the chopper are not in the frecuency ??
Idk Pablo lee the pilot isn’t in the mood.
May not have to be at 500. Still wise to be on it though
@@nickm8882 Looking at the charts, assuming the visual is correct, they are just inside the surface bravo, just off the shore would be the above 500' bravo shelf so either way they were cutting it way close.
As an airline pilot in Europe it boggles my mind that an “unknown” aircraft can get anywhere near a main airport.
And in New York of all places!
It's called freedom, unlike restrictive Europe.
It works fine when everyone does what they're supposed to do!
@@gavinsingh4450 Seriously???
@@TonyP9279 Yeah, seriously!
@@gavinsingh4450 i prefer my skies clear when im carrying people. You can fly your cessna elsewhere.
My Son is a Pilot for Delta and if I had his flight info I would listen on LiveATC. Now however they’ve gotten rid of the KSLC channel😔
if you live nearby, you could listen to it live on air using an usb receiver, they cost only like $25
Unfortunately LiveATC is maintained by volunteers setting up receivers, whoever was doing SLC must have moved or something.
If the locations of the aircraft are accurate, the unknown aircraft (can we call it a UFO?) was on the inside of the class B airspace by a half mile or so. The TAC chart defines this space clearly as anything off the coastline is Class B above 500 feet, but anywhere inland (including where the UFO is indicating on the map in this video) Class B is from the surface up. So the UFO busted Class B airspace and had no business being that close. Whether the TCAS would have still signaled had it been where it should have been is unknown, although I'd expect the Jetblue to be under the glidescope if that were the case. At the beach, it'd be about 3.5 miles from touchdown. According to the video, the aircraft got the RA alert right over the beach, which would probably be at 1,100, giving it 600 feet of clearance over the UFO about a half-mile in front of it. I don't know enough about TCAS to know if it considers vertical speed in its calculations, but I imagine 600 feet is at least enough for it to alert pilots of some kind of conflict. Had the UFO been just off the beach, the aircraft would have been at about 1,400 feet above as it approaches (assuming it still alerts a half-mile out) which still may have given some kind of potential conflict alert but not enough for a full out RA alert. So I would say judging by the map which again I'm unsure is accurate or not, the unidentified aircraft deviated and entered bravo airspace without as much as a radio call and caused a traffic conflict.
Could you repeat that please. Thanks a bunch.
@@RLTtizME hahahaha! lol best comment haha
@@RLTtizME 1. movey thing with spinny top was either in Class B without speaky speaky to tower = no no. OR 2. TCAS is too sensitive.
@@Dan007UT Brevity is always the key to effective communication. May "aviation_nuts" learn from your concise recap. (Officiousness always demands laborious and pedantic overly detailed voluntary explanations.) Now...how is your pink eye? Wall-eyed? (Do we stand to your right or left?) Mr. Blinky?
Will there be any repercussions for a pilot who enters a restricted airspace boundary and causes a passenger jet to fly a go-around?
Between the three New York airports the class bravo is massive. Throw in the Atlantic Ocean and this leaves very few alternatives for smaller airplanes. One of those alternatives is flying along the shore at less than 500 ft to transition to the north or south. This is not all that uncommon. There's little to no risk of collision however tcas is programmed with rules that work everywhere else and don't take one specific approach into consideration. If a rare go around is the worst of it, that's a small price we pay to live in a free country.
When each go around costs thousands of dollars, companies do in deed care. You just said there are very few paths of flight, therefore compounding the chance of a go around. Why not fix the issue instead of just letting it go until one unfortunate accident happens. What if the traffic didn't show on TCAS. What if the approaching planes TCAS failed. Oh but don't worry, it's only a rare occurrence, small price to pay I guess
@@BrentLobegeier Even without TCAS no risk of collision existed. TCAS protects an airspace within 15 seconds of collision in both forward and vertical directions: this is a huge volume that it will generate an RA for. That's because it's designed to prevent two airplanes doing 200 knots indicated straight at each other in the flight levels from colliding. A helicopter at 500 feet over the shoreline is not inside the ILS slope, which 61 nmi out is at 1500 feet all the way down (about 246 feet per mile) meaning the Airbus was likely at about ~760 feet crossing the shoreline.
It's closer than you'd like to be, but provided people stay at or below 500 feet and outside the shoreline, a collision won't actually occur unless the approaching aircraft is doing a low visual approach, in which case they have to visually avoid traffic anyway. Believe you me, the FAA did the math when designing the airspace to be as safe as it can be without making it impossible for VFR aircraft to safely go around the Bravo. If it wasn't a part 121 operation with strict stabilized approach requirements, they could have even continued the approach after the RA.
I fly this transition often when leaving KFRG and duck really under final if there are big jets passing overhead. I never really considered that their TCAS might be set off - I'm mostly trying to stay well below the possible wake turbulence.
"free country" sir your country ranks #17 for freedom in the world, behind 12 european countries, including the UK on personal freedom.
😓
What is wrong with ATC in the US? Giving instructions to climb during a dynamic TCAS RA maneuver. If the DHL and Russian ac crash at the German border taught us anything, is to follow TCAS and disregard any ATC instructions…
Yes, but ATC is still required to give directions even if a craft is following RA instructions.
What it sounded like here is ATC was giving instructions that would continue their approach. The pilot decided to abort approach and do a go-around. Likely that particular airline had that is as procedure for RA on approach given the speed at which the pilot decided to go-around.
@@ShiningDarknes so the USA left ICAO? According to ICAO DOC 4444 ATC must refrain from instructions during a TCAS RA.
And of course they went around, the approach became unstable.
My comment is not to bash the US ATC, I tend to find them quite good, but I just don’t get some things including this.
@@s3kmeth ooooo someone knows how to google. Grow up.
@@ShiningDarknes haha, classic american reaction when they donhave arguments left..
@@s3kmeth No dude I just don't feel like "arguing" with someone that clearly thinks they are better than everyone else.
I was just having a conversation YOU decided to argue.
And I bet nothing will even happen to the other pilot. Your wonderful government in action, folks.
*ahem* I believe as other people in this comment section has mentioned "it's called freedom!" We are given the freedom to be a danger to ourselves and others, because that freedom is more important than the safety of our people, we've decided.
It's not like he did anything wrong.