Hey man sucks to lose friend over a job. I learned that the hard way as well, which is why I now longer do work for friends anymore. Hope this helps go towards what you lost out on. Happy Holidays from my Family to yours.
I've worked with and for several friends over the years, and have come to the conclusion that any work i do for a friend or family is donated/free. I'll never expect payment or to even be acknowledged for the work done.
@@BlunderCraft_Workshopexactly. I’ll move mountains for friends but will never expect payment. If it’s something that has to be bought then I’ll let them know they buy the supplies I’ll help out. I’ll even go with them to show them what to buy. That way I’m only out labor. Anyways, what’s that quote from A Bronx Tale? “they’re never gonna bother you again. They’re never going to ask for money again. They are out of your life for $20. You got off cheap. “ $1500-3000 isn’t as good of a deal but still a cheap price to pay to learn someone’s character.
And *never* do business with family. Want to give a gift? Cool. But business with family turns out terribly more often than not, and just generally bad the rest of the time. Everything must be in writing. No matter what.
Awwwww man. How many of us older folk have learned this lesson from hard, bitter experience. Agreed. Never do work for friends. Never do work for family. Gifts only. Never break that rule.
From the experience of my Dad who a was self employed carpenter most of my life, "gotta be careful with people people with money, they are the worst to both put off paying you and to try to find a way to weasel out of paying all together". And working for friends or some family can always come with unintentional consequences.
Family's the worst they wanna screw ya every chance they get.. Do ya notice how everyone wants to be a millionaire but they don't want you to be one of those.
From my experience, you need to put everything in writing, down to the smallest detail. And then stand over the "craftsman" while they perform work. Or the "craftsman" will cut every corner possible, including using wrong materials, skipping difficult sections and leaving garbage everywhere. Oh and they'll abuse their customers not knowing how much or how difficult something is, to extort as much as possible.
@@rogacz962 "Stand over the "craftsman" while they perform work"???? Thats absolutely ridiculous!!! The client should know by research that the "craftsman) they hire is honest and competent. THEN they should stay the fu(k away from the poor person trying to work! In my 55 years as a high end copper contractor, I have NEVER had a client that knew anywhere near as much as I did, and would have instantly cancelled the project if a client was looking over my shoulder! And a VAST MAJORITY of "craftsmen" do not try to cut corners, and NO CLIENT I ever had would ever have had the knowledge enough to know if the "craftsman" was "cutting corners" if I had (but NEVER DID IN 55 years") I'm guessing you not capable of working with your hands, and have serious trust issues. And most trust issues come from people who are not trustworthy. Yes a SMALL percentage are not trustworthy, but most craftsmen (actually PROFESSIONALS) are, and shame on you if you didn't vett them BEFORE signing a contract!!
I'm an amateur wood worker, but I'm a professional mechanic. I almost never work for family or friends. Most of the time I just tell them I'm super backed up and refer them to someone else. If it's a family member in a financial bind, I just do the repair for free. None of this "pay me when you can" or whatever, because I know that, if I do that, and they never pay me back, I'll resent it a bit. If the deal from the beginning is that I'm just doing it for free, I'm fine with it. And, if at some point, they show up insisting that I take their money (and I will), that's just a bonus.
Great points, exactly the way i feel. Also, if they end up paying your full rate they also may feel the same resentment deep down as you would if they dont pay. They will always feel if you should have cut them a break
When I tell them “pay me when you can” I mean it and write it off as free, if I get paid then great, if not there’s nothing to resent it was done in good faith to help someone.
A lesson I learned much too late in life is, if you do someone enough favours for free, they'll grow to believe they're entitled to your work for free. In due course this then makes them feel superior to you and they'll treat you accordingly. I sum it up with the expression, "If you act like a door mat, people will walk all over you"
@@KenFullmanIt really depends on the circles you move in. Those I moved in 20 years ago, absolutely. Those I move in now, favours get reciprocated sometimes 10x, often by someone else in the same circle or a connected one. What goes around comes around if you're with the right people.
If your going to do something for free it better be for yourself. That being said I work on my family's vehicles for free as long as they buy the parts...but i do that for me, they got me here and I'm just paying it back. Now when a friend wanted a turbo rebuilt I told him bring the truck down and I'll do it for 100 bucks(which is basically nothing) and told me I'm not paying you to do that, then nope. 100 bucks to pull a turbo, rebuild it and put it back on is basically free. Friends can and do take advantage of things. People don't understand that tools cost money, the air companies running costs money, the lights cost money. A favor is a favor but if there is no reciprocating then it's worthless.
There’s no way he forgot the conversation. He is not your friend. You didn’t lose a friend. A 10k table indicates he has (or borrowed) a lot of money. I’m guessing the house is in the millions. Poor people do it too, but wealthy people are notorious for being cheap and saving money at the expense of others
Yep, it's called fake rich. Living off credit. Likely has little in cash and was unable to pay him. Economy is tightening, and he probably doesn't have the same income as he did.
I was a postie for a few years and at one time delivered mail in a well to do area, for those in Victoria Australia it was Mt Eliza. The actual rich people were great to deal with, one gentleman invited me in to see his collection of "Horseless Carriages". When it was really hot other people would offer me a cool drink, things that actually cost nothing but were nice. However the one's on their way up the financial ladder were rude and couldn't be bothered giving you the time of day. Other rich people I have known or dealt with since, some were very frugal (tight as a fishes a__e) and then others were very generous. Just my experience.
my old man taught me this saying when i was a kid, "good fences make good neighbors, good contracts keep 'em that way" he also said to never do anything for family that you expect to get paid for. it all pairs well with the old saying, “make friends out of customers, not customers out of friends”
Even if you won't go after him, you and others should know that you DO have a leg to stand on. The finished table is proof of work, complimented by the fact you have a video of you documenting the work you did. This is what small claims court is for. A judge will know you didn't do this work for free or as a favor so in the extreme case of Dick denying that money was involved, the judge will consider the skilled labor hours you put in and determine a value, which I guarantee will be above $1k. If anything, file a small claim, make a video, and show your viewers that you and they, given the comments I've read, can absolutely get compensated. YOU are the nice guy, don't be a defeatist and let the scummy guy win.
Document everything, there is a plethora of no good people out there. Here in the City I’ve been through 5 plumbers and about 7 car mechanics over the years. (Chicago)
As there were no contracts or emails and everything was done verbally between two old friends makes it very difficult to win. "Dick" could claim that he made several cash payments over time or even a substantial deposit at the beginning of the commission, should this go to small claims court. The fact that Chris (I hope that is right) admits to no contract, email or text message regarding this work in this video would hinder any rebuttal that any payment was not made. It is a he said she said and for the amount involved, not worth the hassle.
There were texts after the fact about the cost that were ignored while other off topic texts were responded too. Avoidance/no response instead of texts contradicting or claiming payment allows one to infer that Chris' claims are true.
I'm 70 years old now, and over the decades, I've lost a few "friends" due to disagreements. It's painful and it hurts. But sometimes, it's best to just cut your losses and move on. Spend your time with those you love, and try to put the painful past behind you.
Thanks. I needed to read your post as I just lost another 'friend' because of politics. I can be friends with anyone just about, but there are those who unless you believe/think as they do, they unfriend you. Gets old.
I made a few epoxy countertops it looked great. So I made dozens others for personal use and now I do expert work. Had many people asking me to do their countertops because the work is so abstract and the colors never equal what people expect. So I don't want the risk.
One thing I learned after many years in the military and working for the government: If it isn't written down, it never happened. Words to live by regardless of who you are dealing with, family, friends, or the general public. Some people have bad memories and won't remember conversations, other people are malicious and will try to take you for everything they can. What comes around, goes around, and eventually Dick will get his in the end, especially since he's going to be reminded of everything every time he looks at the table and/or has to answer questions about it.
You have a great attitude over this situation. I really hope you are compensated fairly, and that your friend appreciates the work you put into the table.
I've been designing and building furniture for decades - You were right in the beginning, this is all your fault. Even when I meet with a potential client and we discuss everything I always ask them to email me with all the details then we go back-and-forth via email to hammer out all the details. I tell them I need to communicate that way so there is a record of everything said. For years I also would do complete picture folders of each project, posting pictures at the end of every workday so the client can see the progress along the way. Some project can take a while if I'm also busy with other projects/clients at the same time.... Having typed all that I recently had an issue doing a project for a friend because she just didn't listen to anything I told her.... The thing is, when it comes to friends, if they're a real friend they should not be asking for a deal nor expecting you do give them a deal. You can give them one if you want to but we're working our asses off t do quality work, that comes at a cost - wanting your pal to do a ton f work while at the same time expecting them to do it at a cut rate price is a dick move....
As a lawyer, you are a dream client. So many contracors say “install cabinets” 4000$….and then then the customer says they did not get what they wanted and NOTHING SPECIFIC is in writing. And yes, friends think contracts or writing is to be ignored because they are fiends with you, which means you will do anything they want, for free….at least that is the way many view it.
Not really, but it’s still good riddance! I’m at the point where, I’d rather have people hate me for not loaning them something, than me hating them bc they did not keep their word.
Being a contractor for decades I can testify that your first piece of advice is very important. Never quote anything, mention any prices until you can verify the 'full scope' of work yourself. Never go by photographs. Most people assume that if you later up the price for ANY REASON that you're trying to rip them off as illogical as the increase may be. I also learned to write good all inclusive scopes of work, so I would spend the time (and include that time) in my quotes to write a very detailed scope of work regarding the work that will be done as well as things that won't be done where it's prudent to do so. I include the price and ask the client to sign the quote before doing anything else. It doesn't matter if it's a friend or a stranger, in fact it's most often friends and family that will take advantage of you the most (unfortunately my father was a shady salesman and he used to like to say that you make the most money off of friends and family). From what I gathered you did the work on the table on his property. That I believe was another serious mistake. In the long run the cost of moving the slab to your property and the finished table back again and doing all the work on your property and in your shop would have been well worth it in travel time saved, the project being able to be done much sooner, and a better chance of getting paid. No court would award him the table without paying compensation. If he would have balked at having the slab come to my shop and paying the shipment costs if any would be incurred would have sealed the deal for me as a definite 'no'. The unfortunate thing for your friend is that every time he looks at the table he will remember that he stole your labor if he supplied all the materials. Count on that. Beautiful job on the table by the way..
As much as I love this guy you’re right, I like your thoughts. One thing that concerns me as well, is I feel that a quote, either verbal or written should be +- 20% and not double the original quote. If someone came to me and said it’s going to cost a bit more you probably want to know what that persons definition of a bit is. Lastly quoting the job properly and having a better idea of the cost is the contractors responsibility and if you don’t have the experience to quote it properly, you may not have the experience to take the job.
I really feel for ya bro. Been there done that. I did handyman work for some 50 years and way back the magic number seemed to be $800. I rarely got screwed over, but when I did it was always right around $800. Those people WERE good customers too. That's what got me, good customers for a good while then BAM, screwed. We take it with a grain of salt and chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. I hope your video reaches a lot of guys like us and take heed. It IS a sad thing when a "friend" does this to you, but I believe they will suffer consequences from it somehow. Lesson learned my friend. DON'T, I repeat, DON'T let this eat you up. It's not worth it. Trust me. You did your vent, move on. For your health and sanity bro. May you prosper in the new year.
Hey Budder, it’s a shame out of good intentions and friendship, this happens and sorry to hear your story. But could I say, it was enjoyable to listen to share your experience and advice with a good guy like you with a smile. Hope you and your family had a great Christmas and a better 2025
Pretty safe to say you are not the first and won't be the last to make the mistake of doing a job for a friend or family... A lesson I too learned the hard way. At the time I felt really pissed off, but I got over it and moved on just as I am sure you will. All the best to you and yours in '25
This is why I never do work for friends or family, I was a plumber for 24 years and lots of "hey bro can you hook me up?" questions and people scoffing at the price of materials etc. The final straw for me was when I did rough in plumbing work for a start up gun shop for a guy I was friendly with and he tried to just order all the parts on amazon and have us do the work. Two days labor with me and a friend and he gave us $200 each. I was super pissed and vowed my days of lending tools and working for friends was over
Plumber since 1982 and still at it. I have family living 60 miles away who will call me to replace a faucet. I would have to go through three cities of bumper to bumper traffic to get there. It is better for me to just call a plumber in there location and send payment to the plumber. My family thinks he's a friend of mine doing it for free.
Honestly I can understand the other guy's side of the story. It's great that you've learned that the valuable lesson of documenting everything, I don't do anything in my business without either a contract or the knowledge that I may not get paid. I have done stuff for friends and Friends of Friends knowing that it might end up going south but being okay with that but typically that's just for services rendered and I don't have any other real expenses. I also document everything with email and try to stay away from phone or verbal conversations that are not at least followed up with email. Email is a great way to get things documented.
Great story. I recently lost a friend also due to business that went wrong over a bath remodel. You hit the nail on the head with a lot of your points. I need to come by and check out the setup. Seems like so much has changed since last time was there. Hope you’re doing well and keep it up!
Similar circumstance happened to me, but I didn't get totally stiffed. I made the table, they loved it, but then said they hit a financial hardship and couldn't buy it. I ended up selling it, but it wasn't a cheap build and I brunt the entire cost as you have here. I think the name you chose for your friend was fitting.
Something similar happened to me. Your completely positive attitude in this video and how you’re proceeding in light of the betrayal was very valuable to me. Tq. And good luck
So sad this happened Chris. I watched the video of you making that table and it was a ton of work and turned out beautiful. I hope you will be compensated one way or another. Many years ago a dear friend who was an extremely talented carpenter told me he never does work for friends. I didn't know why and didn't ask. Years later I had experiences like hiring a neighbor who owned a professional tree trimming company to trim my trees. His crew dropped limbs on a metal horse corral & gate doing a lot of damage. I was never compensated for that and our friendship was never the same again. At that point I understood why my carpenter friend said what he did. I have been asked many times to do work for friends but always politely decline with some excuse that doesn't hurt their feelings like I don't have time, etc. It's the best way to keep from losing friends. Your video will help many and I'm sure you learned a lot during this very unpleasant process so in a way it helped a lot of people. Thanks for sharing and best wishes for a very happy New Year to you and your family!!!
My father told me “when dealing with friends and relatives do twice as much paperwork/documentation, so you can stay friends and relatives. These words have never let me down.
I'm sorry to hear that. I learned long ago not to take projects for family or friends unless it is a gift. These situations often go sideways and can damage the friendship.
Yeah there's no such thing as money among true friends. You don't loan money or charge friends. Or you don't have them as friends for long. I've noticed that once money enters the picture friendships are close to over.
@@JillandKevin people can be a bit erratic in their behavior. There's different kinds of friendship too. There's people we go out and have a good time with and there's people we call up when we need to bury bodies.
@@1pcfred Some folks can put up with this kind of stuff. I can NOT abide liars, cheaters, dishonesty etc., so for me, if people are not honest with me, they don't EVER stand a chance of being my friend!!
@@JillandKevin I don't know if it was intentional lying. Some people just say things they don't really mean. Or they're not putting the same stock in their words as others think they are. Like saying it's not a problem when it really is a problem.
At the age of 23, I leanred a valuable lesson I carry with me to this day. I had a manager make a verbal promise to give me a significant raise if I completed certain projects within a 6--month period. I completed them in 5 months. I went to the manger to make good on her promise. She acted like she didn't know what I was talking about. I reminded her of our conversation at that time. She responded, "If it's not in writing, it never happened." I never got that raise. The other lesson I took from that is I no longer respect titles, just deeds.
Keep this in mind: Every time he looks or sits or tells a story about that table he will know the truth about what he did to get that table. Lesson learned and paid forward. Thank you.
Thank you for for this I have always been a hand shake kind of person so written contracts are hard for me but I guess i will be changing that! I hope you are able to be compensated for your work! Good luck! Oh and I want to add the way you handled this is way better than I ever could have! You took the high road for sure!
As soon as "Richard" came out, I knew "Dick" would soon follow, lol. I'm also guilty of not making written contracts, but also being burned before, I now require 50% or cost of materials up front, whichever is higher. Most of my projects aren't in the 4 digit range though. In that case, I'd say a contract is definitely in order. On the bright side, you learned a couple valuable lessons here, and it will hopefully help others from making the same. Thanks for the video.
Many years ago I had a small printing business, and learned to never do work for friends or family, they all think things should get a deep discount. Lot of people think your time is worth nothing. After learning this the hard way I never produced a single piece for any friend or family member again.
@JamesMasel as a former Art Director in print industry you are correct. Family and friends think time is worth nothing. I rarely do anything either. Cheers!
Oh man this sounds similar to my first big table build. The "Friend" supplied the slabs and that was the first mistake. Cracks and checking everywhere, not fully dried wood (my mistake not checking closer), Used like triple the epoxy that I thought was needed. Did not ever get paid in cash but got great photos to use that helped me get future clients. So everything worked out well and I learned a lot of lessons. Keep up the good work.
One of your best videos, Chris. I’m a 76-year-old former educator, so I enjoy spending time with honest learners like you. I appreciate your deeper dive into questions that seem to confound most people. I can see you stopping two 20-somethings with name tags, riding bikes, and asking them about why they are so happy and Christlike. With your honest, seeking nature you will have found a pearl of great price that will bless you and your family with profound truths. Thank you for trying to make this world better with your company and channel.
I have been a contractor for almost 30 years now. A lot of my work has come from family and friends. These are the people you especially want to make sure you have a contract with to make sure there is no gray area of your agreement to protect both sides.
Amen to everything you're saying, sir. An ex of mine (that I was still on very good terms with) had some pasture and dirt work job that she wanted me to do. We were very slow at my day job, so thought I'd go make some cash. Was told $xxx at first to come out and help, then told $xxxx to get all this other stuff done too. No texts, nothing in writing. Spent 3 days in mid August in Texas -reworking her pasture for drainage, removing trees and reshaping her pond because it was so low. Come to settle up and she changes her story to "I was going to pay you hourly." This lady just spent $6K for a pet camel (yes, an actual 🐫) and decided to only pay me 1/3 of what was originally said. I was livid and we have not spoken since. It's sad times when people you thought you could trust, want nothing more than to use you. On the flip side, how did the table turn out? Do you have any final pics?
That’s a shame. I hope the camel was worth it. The video of the entire building is on my channel. It’s just a few videos back. So go to the channel click videos and you’ll see it.
Sorry for your loss-both financial and friend. I learned this lesson about 40 years ago with a local municipality. Programming, computer and network setups, all on a “friendly” verbal agreement. Never got a cent. People can and will ghost you when it comes to money after the job’s done. Sad.
Geez, some people. It is always important to get it in writing, with everyone, including friends and family. Thanks for the reminder. May you make the money back from TH-cam, thanks, and product sales 10 fold. You are good people.
This guy might have been a friend at one time but he's not anymore and he certainly isn't nice. Thanks for posting your experience. Life makes you smarter!
Aw, man. I’m really sorry to hear this story, Chris, but I’m more than happy to share it. I’ll spread it around as best I can, hoping to add a moderately silver lining to this story.
Just the opposite --- he started out amateur and... where's the table? Who has i? If he gave it up, then he just adds to his amateur approach. Small claims court. (I assume he put cameras in the shop fixing the table w/ dates, and can document that for the court.). He should've gotten AT LEAST HALF up front for materials = amateur approach.
If there isn't any paperwork a judge is going to rule for the homeowner everytime. Everything has to be documented, including additional work. A word of mouth agreement means nothing in court.
Let a judge decide. The evidence is the table didn't get finished with no work. Get prices and pictures of similar projects from other contractors to support your work. Don't let DICK win!!!
I feel for you! For me, being self employed 40+ years, the money hardest to collect has been from "friends". But that's what makes us wiser as we get older. Happy New Year!
Communication is key. Initially it should have been made clear the price was an estimate based on the information available at the time. But then when the full scope of the job became known it has to be made clear that the previous job is over and a new deal must be struck.
True , but better yet not just generally communication, rather “set expectations “ so not only $ but also time and quality. Fill in the triangle of “fast, good, cheap, pick two”
My first large build almost broke my business. Took 94 days to get a check (they misplaced it), I was paid in full. I didn’t ask for 50% down as I thought they would write a 12k check on delivery. That wasn’t the case. Hope this video helps others
I think $1 million deal should only require a handshake, but That takes true integrity and they’re a handful of people in today’s society that have it! I learned to document everything and choose your words very carefully in this new criminal society of big important people
Commenting on this video for the Algorithm for you and your family. It's been a long time since I watched that first video of your window Cabinet that did horrible for you but drew me in as a fan. LOL Lessons learned and continue to move forward. Blessing in the new year Chris. I now run a business of my own and completely understand and sympathize with you and your "friend" Blessings to you and your family in 2025.
Damn…. Some people just suck. Also… you keep co-signing his behavior saying “he’s a friend” he’s really a nice guy” Neither of those are true. These are con man behaviors, and I guarantee he does this regularly.
I've had good friends conviently "forgot" or "misunderstood" our understanding agreements. I had a friend borrow something valuable he really needed for work and I wasn't using but conviently when I needed it several months later he said I gave it to him and that he remembers me saying I didn't want nor need it anymore... He still has it... We're still friends but that was a lesson learned, NEVER lend anything to a friend unless you have written proof it was a loan/borrow.
Thank you for highlighting the importance of establishing written terms on jobs for everyone’s protection! I’m a house painter and had to chase down payment from the retired father of a client last year, it was a total nightmare. I, too, neglected to put the scope of work and payment terms in an actual document and I almost lost a month’s wages over it with no legal recourse. I hope you’re able to help a lot of independent contractors out there cover their assets, you’re a good man for sharing your mistakes to help others avoid them!
As a self employed kitchen fitter of 30yrs here in the UK i know how this feels. Hope my comment helps out. Put it behind you and move on. All the best for the NY to you and yours 👍
@2:45 I see what you did there. Can't wait to watch until the end. Hope you recover some of the costs. At @11:35 Chris, I'm old enough to know that there's always two sides to the story. But you seem like a pretty standup guy, hard working etc. So I think I'm not alone in saying that "No, he's NOT a really nice guy" EVEN *IF* he doesn't remember the conversation, any person can see the work that went into it and know it's more than $1,500. So no...HE'S NOT a NICE GUY.
Man that sucks Chris, I've learned from a good friend that when you do business with friends you do business first and be friends later. Hope you will get enough revenue to get compensated for this. All the best to you and your family ❤
I’d rather hang with someone who is fair over nice. Nice doesn’t mean good. Don’t worry, you’ll end up on top in the long run…because you’re good and fair.
A good lesson learnt here.Don’t make quotes from photos is probably the most important .Also once you make a quote don’t vaguely increase it .But now that it’s learnt and shared hopefully others will have learnt not to repeat it.Lesson learnt thank you
I ran two companies. A basic part of that was never hiring friends or family. I’ve been retired for some time. My situation is now different as there isn’t a business involved. When I do work for friends, I make it clear that I only do something that’s of interest to me, and that they can’t impose a deadline. I don’t charge for my time, just materials, if it’s substantial and I don’t have it in my shop. Mostly I deal with metal and that’s more expensive than wood, generally. You’ve learned the hard way. To me, you’re a young guy. It’s better you learned this now, rather than later. I hope you were t stuck with the cost of any materials. Epoxy is expensive. I usually tell people that I can’t say anything until I’ve actually seen what needs to be done. I can imagine, with wood, that one side has a few fairly minor flaws, but that the other side needs major work. This guy is not a good guy. This guy is not a friend. He’s a user. I’ve run across them over my career. Good luck!
He only "gave" a quote, he didn't double the price. When he actually went to see the slab, it needed way more work than the photos showed. Chris did nothing wrong.
@@melissaguer7641 A quote is what the cost will be. That's the reason for a quote. He then went on to say the quote was too low considering the condition which is understandable. Instead of doing the right thing and giving a new quote , he said it would be "a little more money." Doubling the price and increasing it $1500 is not "a little money". He made this video filled with "what a good honest guy I am" and now is a victim. The customer is the victim. I hope his "friend" does a review to warn others about this guy.
@@thomcarr7021I agree...he took months to do a 4 day job, he knew it would take more work and wasn't transparent with his charges he then doubled the original quote, and is now calling the customer a dick. Would you commission him 😳
@@thomcarr7021In a way you are correct BUT Chris obviously has not done stuff in the past for friends or relatives and lets face it, photos of a large slab expected to finish up as a high end table would be difficult to "quote" on due to the fact that cracks, crevices and other imperfections that needed fixing and filling would not show up on the very much reduced size of the photos. The epoxy for these things isn't cheap, and when dams needed to contain it while setting, in almost all cases needs new melamine to be purchased, then there's the dam sealant, all these things run into money and time. Then comes the actual surface finishing which is a tedious time consuming job that can take days on a slab of that size and eat up sometimes literally hundreds of sanding discs and belts of various grit grades. The final finishing coats are quite costly and Chris mentioned he used a "ceramic" on the final coat. I'm not sure what he meant by "ceramic" I've not heard of it as a furniture finish, but the fact that he specifically metioned this particular product suggests to me that it must be relatively expensive. This table is a monster by any standard and I can assure you that the $10K quoted by Chris is NOT in the ballpark of what other people in a similar situation to Chris would value it at. Including the $4.5K this Dick paid for the slab, a table of that size and quality would be easily worth in the vicinity of $35,000. Then after Chris said he wanted $3K for the extras and time, this Dick, instead of saying (after having some silent thought time of course) could have, should have come back with something like this, OK mate it's a spot on job and you used around 2 gallons of expoy over and above, and you put a lot of time into it, plus it's a great finish, will you settle for $2,000, and perhaps barter a little until an agreement was reached. But no, he basically inferred Chris was ripping him off and refused to pay anything. I'm prepared to suggest that's why he wanted Chris to do the job, anyone else would have been way more expensive. "Mates rates" can cause problems as it has in this instance. This Dick has a piece of furniture that he could easily unload, even in a firesale situation, for north of $20K. Sure, Chris made a few mistakes (the fist being that the quote should have been an estimate and written, even in an email and perhaps with the priviso that he would quote after he had seen the slab) that opened the door (or did this Dick already have a plan) for this Dick to take advantage by saying he'd forgotten, or was it he hadn't heard Chris mention that he had revised the quote up. This Dick obviously didn't a rat's bum about the friendship, he has his nice expensive showpiece table for the cost of a friendhip he placed no value on anyway. By your comment where you suggest that this Dick is the victim and hope that he writes a review to warn others of Chris suggests that you are a miserable person with not a sympathetic bone in your body. This Dick is far from being the victim. I don't know, but during your life have you ever worked as a trades or professional person dealing directly with people, probably not? I can assure you from personal experience during my working years there are more than enough schemeing miserables out there waiting to take advantage of hard working people such as Chris, maybe you are one of them thomcarr7021.
I’ve had plenty of instances where both jobs I’ve done , and work I’ve had quoted to me have gone up considerably. Generally if the recipient (including myself ) has a handle on how much labour goes into a job , then it’s not normally an issue . You did an awesome job of the table and put in extra labour and materials to maintain your standard of workmanship . That says a lot about you as a craftsman . That your mate didn’t see the value in that extra work and the fact that he values a couple of grand more that a friendship says a lot about him as a person .
I learned early on as a child that people tend to not remember what they have said or promised. Lucky for me, the situations were just awkward, but there was no money at stake. I hope this video goes viral and will compensate you.
Bro sorry to hear that just crappy business deal and we all done it for friends family. to bad you lost a good friendship over it sometimes we bite the bullet and move on thank you for the opportunity to tell your story and may you prosper with new opportunities
You are such a nice guy Chris and you don’t deserve this treatment. I hope you had a special Christmas with your family and that 2025 is happy and successful. Ray from the UK 🌞
Much respect for a Working Man. Admire people who can Do Things. You did zip to be ashamed of, you were a stand up guy, the other guy, sad for him, was not. That the original quote doubled is no a big deal, since he was ok with what you had to do and the time and materials it took. I have know working men who honored their word and rich who would penny pinch you till welts were raised and felt proud to do it. That you dropped the price back to first quote, you are a man. He wasn't. But I got your message, document all. Thanks.
Been there. Learned all those same lessons myself along life's road. You handled it with more grace than I did. LOL Hope the video makes up some of your shortfall!!
Man I feel for you - made furniture for 20 years for a living & only got stung once but did get enough down that I didn't lose on the job except for some labor. Best of luck to you in future from a master carpenter retired now in Michigan. By the way - very nice job on table - 10 grand was good deal for " Mr. no pay"
Dude, I've totally been in a situation similar! Many lessons learned, hopefully your making those adjustments to what you can control and you can ultimately turn it into something for the better.
That’s great advice, never ever quote something until you’ve seen it in enough detail to be comfortable with your number. If they pressure you and say “I just need a ballpark budget for now later you confirm it when I get you more details.” that always ends up being an unintentional trap. The problem is that once people hear a lower number they will always think that that was the original real price and that anything else is just price hiking…
That sucks brother. I had a similar situation this year. I put in a ton of good faith work on someone else's business, flew to the other side of the country to make sure everything was cool. Ultimately he cut me off, I might have had some legal standing but a few thousand isn't worth the time. I see you man. We learned lessons this year. Hopefully the 3k didn't hurt too bad. Good luck. Bigger and better things for us!
My wife bought be some of your french cleat holders and absolutely love them. Lessons are learned and we grow from them. Thanks for sharing. I will continue to support your channel and store.
I made a similar mistake once by doing everything verbally for a friend of my wife. It became such a disaster that I finally had to to tell them that I could no longer complete the entire project and they could keep the work done. Since then I have focused my efforts elsewhere and haven't really taken on any new projects because I don't want things to go that way again. I am sure there will be a point I am ready to take on a large build again but for now, I have other things to focus on. Best of luck to you.
I am a hobby woodworker, but that being said, I’ve been making custom entry doors, fancy garden gates, built in cabinets, pantries, sewing cabinets, furniture, etc for 35 years. I’ve made many custom works for acquaintances or friends of friends without issue. I always give them a drawing and wait for approval before giving the price. I discuss the pricing before the project starts and provide a spec sheet with pricing prior to approval and starting the project. Never had a problem until I do work for friends… THEN I feel like I’m being nickel and dimed and questioned as to why I can’t make the same thing for the IKEA price. I finished a custom bathroom vanity for a friend during the pandemic. Communicated that the price of materials/hardware/sheet goods had skyrocketed. She still wanted to go through with the project. I quoted a high price to guard against the jacked up supply prices and told her that it may come in slightly less and had her sign the work order. She made a change order halfway through which I accommodated and I communicated that it would cost an additional $ amount which she agreed to. Her bathroom contractor was slow and I had completed the project but he wasn’t ready to install so I held onto the cabinet for 3 months waiting for him. The bathroom is finally done and she calls me to tell me that she found a cabinet online that she just loves and wants to back out. I ask her where she’s going to install the custom vanity that I built for her because I am not going to eat the cost of building it for her bathroom and I have a signed work order. In the meantime, the online purchase arrives and it’s a piece of crap so now she calls back and tries to play nice because the bathroom is done except for the sink/vanity. She got it a month later at the original quoted full price plus the additional cost for the change order. No discount from me.
Feel for ya brother! I do military retirement boxes. I have done simple to extremely difficult and have built my reputation for quality over many years. I started doing custom work for some of the officers and senior enlisted (mostly due to high cost of custom work) and that got even more attention, but it also gave me the rep of "unique one offs" Just had a retiree ask for a VERY specialized box and having never even attempted something like this I worked with him (over text and phone calls) to set a starting price of around 600-700 dollars. I told him that the price could be a little higher as I progress as each piece of the box will require hand tooling and fitting. When all said and done, I had over 550.00 in material costs and while still trying to make good on the estimate I called him and told him the final out the door would be around 850.00 which was higher than discussed but with my time and the custom work and materials I was making about 1.30/hour on a two-month project. Unfortunately, he backed out and now I have a very specific retirement box that probably cannot unload. For me lesson learned and for custom work, no less than 50% upfront and 350.00.- 500.00 nonrefundable once I begin on the project. Has resulted in some slow down, but I never wanted this much custom work to begin with.
Hey man sucks to lose friend over a job. I learned that the hard way as well, which is why I now longer do work for friends anymore. Hope this helps go towards what you lost out on. Happy Holidays from my Family to yours.
Chris Castagner is now the sponsor of this video. Thank you so much for the kind words and the tip. A super thanks indeed.
I've worked with and for several friends over the years, and have come to the conclusion that any work i do for a friend or family is donated/free. I'll never expect payment or to even be acknowledged for the work done.
I want to know if your "friend's" first name is Peter or Paul, as that would make him a complete P Rick. Keep smiling karma will come for P Rick.
@@BlunderCraft_Workshopexactly. I’ll move mountains for friends but will never expect payment. If it’s something that has to be bought then I’ll let them know they buy the supplies I’ll help out. I’ll even go with them to show them what to buy.
That way I’m only out labor.
Anyways, what’s that quote from A Bronx Tale? “they’re never gonna bother you again. They’re never going to ask for money again. They are out of your life for $20. You got off cheap. “
$1500-3000 isn’t as good of a deal but still a cheap price to pay to learn someone’s character.
Yeah I don't work for friends or family I would like to remain friends with them.
I read in a book of business sayings published around 1900. One of them said, “Make friends out of customers not customers out of friends”.
This is am important lesson to learn. Thanks for sharing and I’m going to take this information to heart. 😎👍
Amazing point here we’ll heard thank you
And *never* do business with family. Want to give a gift? Cool. But business with family turns out terribly more often than not, and just generally bad the rest of the time.
Everything must be in writing. No matter what.
What a great quote.
Awwwww man. How many of us older folk have learned this lesson from hard, bitter experience. Agreed. Never do work for friends. Never do work for family. Gifts only. Never break that rule.
From the experience of my Dad who a was self employed carpenter most of my life, "gotta be careful with people people with money, they are the worst to both put off paying you and to try to find a way to weasel out of paying all together". And working for friends or some family can always come with unintentional consequences.
Family's the worst they wanna screw ya every chance they get.. Do ya notice how everyone wants to be a millionaire but they don't want you to be one of those.
Them, developers, and lawyers.
How do you think they got rich it's always by ripping of other people .
From my experience, you need to put everything in writing, down to the smallest detail. And then stand over the "craftsman" while they perform work. Or the "craftsman" will cut every corner possible, including using wrong materials, skipping difficult sections and leaving garbage everywhere. Oh and they'll abuse their customers not knowing how much or how difficult something is, to extort as much as possible.
@@rogacz962 "Stand over the "craftsman" while they perform work"???? Thats absolutely ridiculous!!!
The client should know by research that the "craftsman) they hire is honest and competent.
THEN they should stay the fu(k away from the poor person trying to work!
In my 55 years as a high end copper contractor, I have NEVER had a client that knew anywhere near as much as I did, and would have instantly cancelled the project if a client was looking over my shoulder!
And a VAST MAJORITY of "craftsmen" do not try to cut corners, and NO CLIENT I ever had would ever have had the knowledge enough to know if the "craftsman" was "cutting corners" if I had (but NEVER DID IN 55 years")
I'm guessing you not capable of working with your hands, and have serious trust issues. And most trust issues come from people who are not trustworthy.
Yes a SMALL percentage are not trustworthy, but most craftsmen (actually PROFESSIONALS) are, and shame on you if you didn't vett them BEFORE signing a contract!!
He isn't a nice guy if he doesn't stick to his word. If your word is no good, you're no good. Love ya bud.
so true
I'm an amateur wood worker, but I'm a professional mechanic. I almost never work for family or friends. Most of the time I just tell them I'm super backed up and refer them to someone else. If it's a family member in a financial bind, I just do the repair for free. None of this "pay me when you can" or whatever, because I know that, if I do that, and they never pay me back, I'll resent it a bit. If the deal from the beginning is that I'm just doing it for free, I'm fine with it. And, if at some point, they show up insisting that I take their money (and I will), that's just a bonus.
Great points, exactly the way i feel. Also, if they end up paying your full rate they also may feel the same resentment deep down as you would if they dont pay. They will always feel if you should have cut them a break
When I tell them “pay me when you can” I mean it and write it off as free, if I get paid then great, if not there’s nothing to resent it was done in good faith to help someone.
A lesson I learned much too late in life is, if you do someone enough favours for free, they'll grow to believe they're entitled to your work for free. In due course this then makes them feel superior to you and they'll treat you accordingly. I sum it up with the expression, "If you act like a door mat, people will walk all over you"
@@KenFullmanIt really depends on the circles you move in. Those I moved in 20 years ago, absolutely. Those I move in now, favours get reciprocated sometimes 10x, often by someone else in the same circle or a connected one. What goes around comes around if you're with the right people.
If your going to do something for free it better be for yourself. That being said I work on my family's vehicles for free as long as they buy the parts...but i do that for me, they got me here and I'm just paying it back. Now when a friend wanted a turbo rebuilt I told him bring the truck down and I'll do it for 100 bucks(which is basically nothing) and told me I'm not paying you to do that, then nope. 100 bucks to pull a turbo, rebuild it and put it back on is basically free. Friends can and do take advantage of things. People don't understand that tools cost money, the air companies running costs money, the lights cost money. A favor is a favor but if there is no reciprocating then it's worthless.
There’s no way he forgot the conversation. He is not your friend. You didn’t lose a friend. A 10k table indicates he has (or borrowed) a lot of money. I’m guessing the house is in the millions. Poor people do it too, but wealthy people are notorious for being cheap and saving money at the expense of others
That's how they can afford the big houses.
Yep, it's called fake rich. Living off credit. Likely has little in cash and was unable to pay him. Economy is tightening, and he probably doesn't have the same income as he did.
I have never met a millionaire that was not a cheapskate dick! They got hei money screwing people over!
Particularly lawyers and Germans.
I was a postie for a few years and at one time delivered mail in a well to do area, for those in Victoria Australia it was Mt Eliza. The actual rich people were great to deal with, one gentleman invited me in to see his collection of "Horseless Carriages". When it was really hot other people would offer me a cool drink, things that actually cost nothing but were nice. However the one's on their way up the financial ladder were rude and couldn't be bothered giving you the time of day. Other rich people I have known or dealt with since, some were very frugal (tight as a fishes a__e) and then others were very generous. Just my experience.
A true Richard in every sense
my old man taught me this saying when i was a kid, "good fences make good neighbors, good contracts keep 'em that way" he also said to never do anything for family that you expect to get paid for. it all pairs well with the old saying, “make friends out of customers, not customers out of friends”
Exactly what I was going to say.
I have successfully been self employed many times.
Tall fences make good neighbors. *
@@HalfBackCrack No neighbors make good neighbors!
Even if you won't go after him, you and others should know that you DO have a leg to stand on. The finished table is proof of work, complimented by the fact you have a video of you documenting the work you did. This is what small claims court is for. A judge will know you didn't do this work for free or as a favor so in the extreme case of Dick denying that money was involved, the judge will consider the skilled labor hours you put in and determine a value, which I guarantee will be above $1k.
If anything, file a small claim, make a video, and show your viewers that you and they, given the comments I've read, can absolutely get compensated. YOU are the nice guy, don't be a defeatist and let the scummy guy win.
I totally agree with you on this. Make this an episode.
Document everything, there is a plethora of no good people out there. Here in the City I’ve been through 5 plumbers and about 7 car mechanics over the years. (Chicago)
You'd go through a case in claims, you have the proof of work done, the other party has to come up with proof of payment.
As there were no contracts or emails and everything was done verbally between two old friends makes it very difficult to win. "Dick" could claim that he made several cash payments over time or even a substantial deposit at the beginning of the commission, should this go to small claims court. The fact that Chris (I hope that is right) admits to no contract, email or text message regarding this work in this video would hinder any rebuttal that any payment was not made. It is a he said she said and for the amount involved, not worth the hassle.
There were texts after the fact about the cost that were ignored while other off topic texts were responded too. Avoidance/no response instead of texts contradicting or claiming payment allows one to infer that Chris' claims are true.
I'm 70 years old now, and over the decades, I've lost a few "friends" due to disagreements. It's painful and it hurts. But sometimes, it's best to just cut your losses and move on. Spend your time with those you love, and try to put the painful past behind you.
Thanks. I needed to read your post as I just lost another 'friend' because of politics. I can be friends with anyone just about, but there are those who unless you believe/think as they do, they unfriend you. Gets old.
That's a good lesson for everyone to learn. Document, document, document. Thanks for sharing.
I made a few epoxy countertops it looked great. So I made dozens others for personal use and now I do expert work. Had many people asking me to do their countertops because the work is so abstract and the colors never equal what people expect. So I don't want the risk.
One thing I learned after many years in the military and working for the government: If it isn't written down, it never happened. Words to live by regardless of who you are dealing with, family, friends, or the general public. Some people have bad memories and won't remember conversations, other people are malicious and will try to take you for everything they can. What comes around, goes around, and eventually Dick will get his in the end, especially since he's going to be reminded of everything every time he looks at the table and/or has to answer questions about it.
Seriously, it’s almost symbolic. Feeding your family on a table that was stolen. Smh
You have a great attitude over this situation. I really hope you are compensated fairly, and that your friend appreciates the work you put into the table.
I've been designing and building furniture for decades - You were right in the beginning, this is all your fault. Even when I meet with a potential client and we discuss everything I always ask them to email me with all the details then we go back-and-forth via email to hammer out all the details. I tell them I need to communicate that way so there is a record of everything said. For years I also would do complete picture folders of each project, posting pictures at the end of every workday so the client can see the progress along the way. Some project can take a while if I'm also busy with other projects/clients at the same time.... Having typed all that I recently had an issue doing a project for a friend because she just didn't listen to anything I told her.... The thing is, when it comes to friends, if they're a real friend they should not be asking for a deal nor expecting you do give them a deal. You can give them one if you want to but we're working our asses off t do quality work, that comes at a cost - wanting your pal to do a ton f work while at the same time expecting them to do it at a cut rate price is a dick move....
As a lawyer, you are a dream client. So many contracors say “install cabinets” 4000$….and then then the customer says they did not get what they wanted and NOTHING SPECIFIC is in writing. And yes, friends think contracts or writing is to be ignored because they are fiends with you, which means you will do anything they want, for free….at least that is the way many view it.
"If you lend someone £10 and you never see them again, it's money well spent."
NICE!
So True! From experience.
Hilarious and true... love it. Good response.
Not really, but it’s still good riddance! I’m at the point where, I’d rather have people hate me for not loaning them something, than me hating them bc they did not keep their word.
Was he your friend or just an associate or just someone that you knew?
Being a contractor for decades I can testify that your first piece of advice is very important. Never quote anything, mention any prices until you can verify the 'full scope' of work yourself. Never go by photographs. Most people assume that if you later up the price for ANY REASON that you're trying to rip them off as illogical as the increase may be.
I also learned to write good all inclusive scopes of work, so I would spend the time (and include that time) in my quotes to write a very detailed scope of work regarding the work that will be done as well as things that won't be done where it's prudent to do so. I include the price and ask the client to sign the quote before doing anything else.
It doesn't matter if it's a friend or a stranger, in fact it's most often friends and family that will take advantage of you the most (unfortunately my father was a shady salesman and he used to like to say that you make the most money off of friends and family).
From what I gathered you did the work on the table on his property. That I believe was another serious mistake. In the long run the cost of moving the slab to your property and the finished table back again and doing all the work on your property and in your shop would have been well worth it in travel time saved, the project being able to be done much sooner, and a better chance of getting paid. No court would award him the table without paying compensation. If he would have balked at having the slab come to my shop and paying the shipment costs if any would be incurred would have sealed the deal for me as a definite 'no'.
The unfortunate thing for your friend is that every time he looks at the table he will remember that he stole your labor if he supplied all the materials. Count on that.
Beautiful job on the table by the way..
As much as I love this guy you’re right, I like your thoughts. One thing that concerns me as well, is I feel that a quote, either verbal or written should be +- 20% and not double the original quote. If someone came to me and said it’s going to cost a bit more you probably want to know what that persons definition of a bit is. Lastly quoting the job properly and having a better idea of the cost is the contractors responsibility and if you don’t have the experience to quote it properly, you may not have the experience to take the job.
That’s a really nice table all the same. I really like that steel lift mechanism too with the natural wood. Really cool contrast.
I really feel for ya bro. Been there done that. I did handyman work for some 50 years and way back the magic number seemed to be $800. I rarely got screwed over, but when I did it was always right around $800. Those people WERE good customers too. That's what got me, good customers for a good while then BAM, screwed. We take it with a grain of salt and chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. I hope your video reaches a lot of guys like us and take heed. It IS a sad thing when a "friend" does this to you, but I believe they will suffer consequences from it somehow. Lesson learned my friend. DON'T, I repeat, DON'T let this eat you up. It's not worth it. Trust me. You did your vent, move on. For your health and sanity bro. May you prosper in the new year.
Live and Learn Son, Live and Learn. I love the "nickname"! I've had quite a few Richards come across my path in my 6 decades. Still Learning myself!
Some of us find it VERY difficult to let stuff like this go.
Hey Budder, it’s a shame out of good intentions and friendship, this happens and sorry to hear your story. But could I say, it was enjoyable to listen to share your experience and advice with a good guy like you with a smile. Hope you and your family had a great Christmas and a better 2025
Pretty safe to say you are not the first and won't be the last to make the mistake of doing a job for a friend or family... A lesson I too learned the hard way. At the time I felt really pissed off, but I got over it and moved on just as I am sure you will. All the best to you and yours in '25
Thank you so much, Phil
Thanks!
Im at 1:29. Paused the video to like the video.
Finished. Stunning looking table finish. Been in construction 28 years
This is why I never do work for friends or family, I was a plumber for 24 years and lots of "hey bro can you hook me up?" questions and people scoffing at the price of materials etc. The final straw for me was when I did rough in plumbing work for a start up gun shop for a guy I was friendly with and he tried to just order all the parts on amazon and have us do the work. Two days labor with me and a friend and he gave us $200 each. I was super pissed and vowed my days of lending tools and working for friends was over
Plumber since 1982 and still at it. I have family living 60 miles away who will call me to replace a faucet. I would have to go through three cities of bumper to bumper traffic to get there. It is better for me to just call a plumber in there location and send payment to the plumber. My family thinks he's a friend of mine doing it for free.
Nice job taking the high road, Chris. You did the right thing and for that, you can sleep at night.
Honestly I can understand the other guy's side of the story. It's great that you've learned that the valuable lesson of documenting everything, I don't do anything in my business without either a contract or the knowledge that I may not get paid. I have done stuff for friends and Friends of Friends knowing that it might end up going south but being okay with that but typically that's just for services rendered and I don't have any other real expenses. I also document everything with email and try to stay away from phone or verbal conversations that are not at least followed up with email. Email is a great way to get things documented.
That lesson is worth FAR more than the money! Thank you for sharing it with us. Happy New Year
Great story. I recently lost a friend also due to business that went wrong over a bath remodel. You hit the nail on the head with a lot of your points. I need to come by and check out the setup. Seems like so much has changed since last time was there. Hope you’re doing well and keep it up!
Similar circumstance happened to me, but I didn't get totally stiffed. I made the table, they loved it, but then said they hit a financial hardship and couldn't buy it. I ended up selling it, but it wasn't a cheap build and I brunt the entire cost as you have here. I think the name you chose for your friend was fitting.
Something similar happened to me. Your completely positive attitude in this video and how you’re proceeding in light of the betrayal was very valuable to me. Tq. And good luck
So sad this happened Chris. I watched the video of you making that table and it was a ton of work and turned out beautiful. I hope you will be compensated one way or another. Many years ago a dear friend who was an extremely talented carpenter told me he never does work for friends. I didn't know why and didn't ask. Years later I had experiences like hiring a neighbor who owned a professional tree trimming company to trim my trees. His crew dropped limbs on a metal horse corral & gate doing a lot of damage. I was never compensated for that and our friendship was never the same again. At that point I understood why my carpenter friend said what he did. I have been asked many times to do work for friends but always politely decline with some excuse that doesn't hurt their feelings like I don't have time, etc. It's the best way to keep from losing friends. Your video will help many and I'm sure you learned a lot during this very unpleasant process so in a way it helped a lot of people. Thanks for sharing and best wishes for a very happy New Year to you and your family!!!
My father told me “when dealing with friends and relatives do twice as much paperwork/documentation, so you can stay friends and relatives. These words have never let me down.
I'm sorry to hear that. I learned long ago not to take projects for family or friends unless it is a gift. These situations often go sideways and can damage the friendship.
Yeah there's no such thing as money among true friends. You don't loan money or charge friends. Or you don't have them as friends for long. I've noticed that once money enters the picture friendships are close to over.
If someone treats you like that, they are NOT REALLY your friend. PERIOD!
@@JillandKevin people can be a bit erratic in their behavior. There's different kinds of friendship too. There's people we go out and have a good time with and there's people we call up when we need to bury bodies.
@@1pcfred Some folks can put up with this kind of stuff. I can NOT abide liars, cheaters, dishonesty etc., so for me, if people are not honest with me, they don't EVER stand a chance of being my friend!!
@@JillandKevin I don't know if it was intentional lying. Some people just say things they don't really mean. Or they're not putting the same stock in their words as others think they are. Like saying it's not a problem when it really is a problem.
At the age of 23, I leanred a valuable lesson I carry with me to this day. I had a manager make a verbal promise to give me a significant raise if I completed certain projects within a 6--month period. I completed them in 5 months. I went to the manger to make good on her promise. She acted like she didn't know what I was talking about. I reminded her of our conversation at that time. She responded, "If it's not in writing, it never happened." I never got that raise. The other lesson I took from that is I no longer respect titles, just deeds.
Doubled, is a word people would remember, a bit more is very casual and easy to forget after months.
Keep this in mind:
Every time he looks or sits or tells a story about that table he will know the truth about what he did to get that table.
Lesson learned and paid forward. Thank you.
You are right, document everything. In the end that is the only thing that protects both parties. Also, for custom work get money up front.
Thank you for for this I have always been a hand shake kind of person so written contracts are hard for me but I guess i will be changing that! I hope you are able to be compensated for your work! Good luck! Oh and I want to add the way you handled this is way better than I ever could have! You took the high road for sure!
As soon as "Richard" came out, I knew "Dick" would soon follow, lol. I'm also guilty of not making written contracts, but also being burned before, I now require 50% or cost of materials up front, whichever is higher. Most of my projects aren't in the 4 digit range though. In that case, I'd say a contract is definitely in order. On the bright side, you learned a couple valuable lessons here, and it will hopefully help others from making the same. Thanks for the video.
Richard Cranium?
@@joefaraone977..... absolutely.
Many years ago I had a small printing business, and learned to never do work for friends or family, they all think things should get a deep discount. Lot of people think your time is worth nothing. After learning this the hard way I never produced a single piece for any friend or family member again.
@JamesMasel as a former Art Director in print industry you are correct. Family and friends think time is worth nothing. I rarely do anything either. Cheers!
I hope Dick has friends who know of your channel and see this video and put two & two together... They'll know his true nature.
Oh man this sounds similar to my first big table build. The "Friend" supplied the slabs and that was the first mistake. Cracks and checking everywhere, not fully dried wood (my mistake not checking closer), Used like triple the epoxy that I thought was needed. Did not ever get paid in cash but got great photos to use that helped me get future clients. So everything worked out well and I learned a lot of lessons. Keep up the good work.
One of your best videos, Chris. I’m a 76-year-old former educator, so I enjoy spending time with honest learners like you. I appreciate your deeper dive into questions that seem to confound most people. I can see you stopping two 20-somethings with name tags, riding bikes, and asking them about why they are so happy and Christlike. With your honest, seeking nature you will have found a pearl of great price that will bless you and your family with profound truths. Thank you for trying to make this world better with your company and channel.
I have been a contractor for almost 30 years now. A lot of my work has come from family and friends. These are the people you especially want to make sure you have a contract with to make sure there is no gray area of your agreement to protect both sides.
Amen to everything you're saying, sir. An ex of mine (that I was still on very good terms with) had some pasture and dirt work job that she wanted me to do. We were very slow at my day job, so thought I'd go make some cash. Was told $xxx at first to come out and help, then told $xxxx to get all this other stuff done too. No texts, nothing in writing. Spent 3 days in mid August in Texas -reworking her pasture for drainage, removing trees and reshaping her pond because it was so low. Come to settle up and she changes her story to "I was going to pay you hourly." This lady just spent $6K for a pet camel (yes, an actual 🐫) and decided to only pay me 1/3 of what was originally said. I was livid and we have not spoken since. It's sad times when people you thought you could trust, want nothing more than to use you.
On the flip side, how did the table turn out? Do you have any final pics?
That’s a shame. I hope the camel was worth it. The video of the entire building is on my channel. It’s just a few videos back. So go to the channel click videos and you’ll see it.
I say drop off a snack for the camel. Vets don't work for free. Just say'n.
Sorry for your loss-both financial and friend. I learned this lesson about 40 years ago with a local municipality. Programming, computer and network setups, all on a “friendly” verbal agreement. Never got a cent. People can and will ghost you when it comes to money after the job’s done. Sad.
Geez, some people. It is always important to get it in writing, with everyone, including friends and family. Thanks for the reminder. May you make the money back from TH-cam, thanks, and product sales 10 fold. You are good people.
This guy might have been a friend at one time but he's not anymore and he certainly isn't nice. Thanks for posting your experience.
Life makes you smarter!
Aw, man. I’m really sorry to hear this story, Chris, but I’m more than happy to share it. I’ll spread it around as best I can, hoping to add a moderately silver lining to this story.
I’m with you. Friends are not good business.
I'm watching this from my lounge here in Auckland, New Zealand ...
I think you handled it very professionally. You make all of us fellow woodworkers proud .
Just the opposite --- he started out amateur and... where's the table? Who has i? If he gave it up, then he just adds to his amateur approach. Small claims court. (I assume he put cameras in the shop fixing the table w/ dates, and can document that for the court.). He should've gotten AT LEAST HALF up front for materials = amateur approach.
Glad you're taking the high road. Hard lesson but you're the better man.
Small Claims court is your best approach and remedy. Don't walk away.
If there isn't any paperwork a judge is going to rule for the homeowner everytime. Everything has to be documented, including additional work. A word of mouth agreement means nothing in court.
Let a judge decide. The evidence is the table didn't get finished with no work. Get prices and pictures of similar projects from other contractors to support your work. Don't let DICK win!!!
I feel for you! For me, being self employed 40+ years, the money hardest to collect has been from "friends". But that's what makes us wiser as we get older. Happy New Year!
Most states allow you to record conversations. You might want to check for sure on your state laws.
10k on that table is a steal, you dodged a bullet not dealing with this guy for anything in the future🙌⚡️🙌
Communication is key. Initially it should have been made clear the price was an estimate based on the information available at the time. But then when the full scope of the job became known it has to be made clear that the previous job is over and a new deal must be struck.
True , but better yet not just generally communication, rather “set expectations “ so not only $ but also time and quality. Fill in the triangle of “fast, good, cheap, pick two”
@@TheDOS nah I want all three. I'm just greedy like that. Never settle. If you can't have it all then don't accept less. Drive that hard bargain.
Great lesson Chris! I’m sorry to hear you lost a friend over this, but thank you for sharing. Take care man.
His friendship doesn't sound like a huge loss.
My first large build almost broke my business. Took 94 days to get a check (they misplaced it), I was paid in full. I didn’t ask for 50% down as I thought they would write a 12k check on delivery. That wasn’t the case. Hope this video helps others
Definitely not a friend or a nice guy. You're just getting to see the side of him that you haven't yet
I think $1 million deal should only require a handshake, but That takes true integrity and they’re a handful of people in today’s society that have it! I learned to document everything and choose your words very carefully in this new criminal society of big important people
Not a Friend!!! I hope the video goes viral.
We shall see. Yeah it’s a shame. What happened?
Commenting on this video for the Algorithm for you and your family. It's been a long time since I watched that first video of your window Cabinet that did horrible for you but drew me in as a fan. LOL Lessons learned and continue to move forward. Blessing in the new year Chris. I now run a business of my own and completely understand and sympathize with you and your "friend" Blessings to you and your family in 2025.
Damn…. Some people just suck.
Also… you keep co-signing his behavior saying “he’s a friend” he’s really a nice guy”
Neither of those are true. These are con man behaviors, and I guarantee he does this regularly.
I agree, Dick is a total dick and you should not be saying anything nice about him. Karma will get him.
There's only so many bridges you can burn in life.
@@1pcfred Like some CEO found out... 🎉
His wife probably found out and got pissed about the money. Old man talking here, with a lot of experience lol
@@TheMusicman961that was my thought immediately when things first turned bad:
I've had good friends conviently "forgot" or "misunderstood" our understanding agreements.
I had a friend borrow something valuable he really needed for work and I wasn't using but conviently when I needed it several months later he said I gave it to him and that he remembers me saying I didn't want nor need it anymore... He still has it...
We're still friends but that was a lesson learned, NEVER lend anything to a friend unless you have written proof it was a loan/borrow.
Similar, friend wouldn't return item after it had been used for the intended purpose. He was keeping it in his custody as if it was is.
You don’t forget conversations over a ten thousand dollar table. I know he’s your friend but he’s setting you up.
Thank you for highlighting the importance of establishing written terms on jobs for everyone’s protection! I’m a house painter and had to chase down payment from the retired father of a client last year, it was a total nightmare. I, too, neglected to put the scope of work and payment terms in an actual document and I almost lost a month’s wages over it with no legal recourse. I hope you’re able to help a lot of independent contractors out there cover their assets, you’re a good man for sharing your mistakes to help others avoid them!
11:09 There is a squirrel coming down the tree in the background.
Who else has attention deficit oh squirrel 😅😅
As a self employed kitchen fitter of 30yrs here in the UK i know how this feels. Hope my comment helps out. Put it behind you and move on. All the best for the NY to you and yours 👍
@2:45 I see what you did there. Can't wait to watch until the end. Hope you recover some of the costs. At @11:35 Chris, I'm old enough to know that there's always two sides to the story. But you seem like a pretty standup guy, hard working etc. So I think I'm not alone in saying that "No, he's NOT a really nice guy" EVEN *IF* he doesn't remember the conversation, any person can see the work that went into it and know it's more than $1,500. So no...HE'S NOT a NICE GUY.
Man that sucks Chris, I've learned from a good friend that when you do business with friends you do business first and be friends later. Hope you will get enough revenue to get compensated for this. All the best to you and your family ❤
I’d rather hang with someone who is fair over nice. Nice doesn’t mean good. Don’t worry, you’ll end up on top in the long run…because you’re good and fair.
A good lesson learnt here.Don’t make quotes from photos is probably the most important .Also once you make a quote don’t vaguely increase it .But now that it’s learnt and shared hopefully others will have learnt not to repeat it.Lesson learnt thank you
I ran two companies. A basic part of that was never hiring friends or family. I’ve been retired for some time. My situation is now different as there isn’t a business involved. When I do work for friends, I make it clear that I only do something that’s of interest to me, and that they can’t impose a deadline. I don’t charge for my time, just materials, if it’s substantial and I don’t have it in my shop. Mostly I deal with metal and that’s more expensive than wood, generally. You’ve learned the hard way. To me, you’re a young guy. It’s better you learned this now, rather than later. I hope you were t stuck with the cost of any materials. Epoxy is expensive. I usually tell people that I can’t say anything until I’ve actually seen what needs to be done. I can imagine, with wood, that one side has a few fairly minor flaws, but that the other side needs major work. This guy is not a good guy. This guy is not a friend. He’s a user. I’ve run across them over my career. Good luck!
That sucks Chris. So sorry you had to deal with that 😢
Doubling the price is not a little more money. You keep talking this friend stuff but who needs a friend like you.
He only "gave" a quote, he didn't double the price. When he actually went to see the slab, it needed way more work than the photos showed. Chris did nothing wrong.
@@melissaguer7641 A quote is what the cost will be. That's the reason for a quote. He then went on to say the quote was too low considering the condition which is understandable. Instead of doing the right thing and giving a new quote , he said it would be "a little more money." Doubling the price and increasing it $1500 is not "a little money". He made this video filled with "what a good honest guy I am" and now is a victim. The customer is the victim. I hope his "friend" does a review to warn others about this guy.
@@thomcarr7021I agree...he took months to do a 4 day job, he knew it would take more work and wasn't transparent with his charges he then doubled the original quote, and is now calling the customer a dick. Would you commission him 😳
@@thomcarr7021In a way you are correct BUT Chris obviously has not done stuff in the past for friends or relatives and lets face it, photos of a large slab expected to finish up as a high end table would be difficult to "quote" on due to the fact that cracks, crevices and other imperfections that needed fixing and filling would not show up on the very much reduced size of the photos. The epoxy for these things isn't cheap, and when dams needed to contain it while setting, in almost all cases needs new melamine to be purchased, then there's the dam sealant, all these things run into money and time. Then comes the actual surface finishing which is a tedious time consuming job that can take days on a slab of that size and eat up sometimes literally hundreds of sanding discs and belts of various grit grades. The final finishing coats are quite costly and Chris mentioned he used a "ceramic" on the final coat. I'm not sure what he meant by "ceramic" I've not heard of it as a furniture finish, but the fact that he specifically metioned this particular product suggests to me that it must be relatively expensive. This table is a monster by any standard and I can assure you that the $10K quoted by Chris is NOT in the ballpark of what other people in a similar situation to Chris would value it at. Including the $4.5K this Dick paid for the slab, a table of that size and quality would be easily worth in the vicinity of $35,000. Then after Chris said he wanted $3K for the extras and time, this Dick, instead of saying (after having some silent thought time of course) could have, should have come back with something like this, OK mate it's a spot on job and you used around 2 gallons of expoy over and above, and you put a lot of time into it, plus it's a great finish, will you settle for $2,000, and perhaps barter a little until an agreement was reached. But no, he basically inferred Chris was ripping him off and refused to pay anything. I'm prepared to suggest that's why he wanted Chris to do the job, anyone else would have been way more expensive. "Mates rates" can cause problems as it has in this instance. This Dick has a piece of furniture that he could easily unload, even in a firesale situation, for north of $20K. Sure, Chris made a few mistakes (the fist being that the quote should have been an estimate and written, even in an email and perhaps with the priviso that he would quote after he had seen the slab) that opened the door (or did this Dick already have a plan) for this Dick to take advantage by saying he'd forgotten, or was it he hadn't heard Chris mention that he had revised the quote up. This Dick obviously didn't a rat's bum about the friendship, he has his nice expensive showpiece table for the cost of a friendhip he placed no value on anyway.
By your comment where you suggest that this Dick is the victim and hope that he writes a review to warn others of Chris suggests that you are a miserable person with not a sympathetic bone in your body. This Dick is far from being the victim. I don't know, but during your life have you ever worked as a trades or professional person dealing directly with people, probably not? I can assure you from personal experience during my working years there are more than enough schemeing miserables out there waiting to take advantage of hard working people such as Chris, maybe you are one of them thomcarr7021.
@@leondxut
I needed a good laugh to start my new year. Thank you.
I’ve had plenty of instances where both jobs I’ve done , and work I’ve had quoted to me have gone up considerably. Generally if the recipient (including myself ) has a handle on how much labour goes into a job , then it’s not normally an issue . You did an awesome job of the table and put in extra labour and materials to maintain your standard of workmanship . That says a lot about you as a craftsman . That your mate didn’t see the value in that extra work and the fact that he values a couple of grand more that a friendship says a lot about him as a person .
Sounds like a tax write off for an obvious business loss.
Yeah, I can come up with a price per hour work and then say I never received compensation
@AGlimpseInside that will not count as a deductible expense... no tax write off
I learned early on as a child that people tend to not remember what they have said or promised. Lucky for me, the situations were just awkward, but there was no money at stake.
I hope this video goes viral and will compensate you.
Bro sorry to hear that just crappy business deal and we all done it for friends family. to bad you lost a good friendship over it sometimes we bite the bullet and move on thank you for the opportunity to tell your story and may you prosper with new opportunities
You are such a nice guy Chris and you don’t deserve this treatment. I hope you had a special Christmas with your family and that 2025 is happy and successful. Ray from the UK 🌞
Great job. Now that your warmed up could I borrow some of your tools and use your shop for my next job.
Happened to me too…. Merry Christmas!!
Definitely need to document everything. We had a similar issue with a client, verbal change orders... didn't go well at the end of the job.
Much respect for a Working Man. Admire people who can Do Things. You did zip to be ashamed of, you were a stand up guy, the other guy, sad for him, was not. That the original quote doubled is no a big deal, since he was ok with what you had to do and the time and materials it took.
I have know working men who honored their word and rich who would penny pinch you till welts were raised and felt proud to do it. That you dropped the price back to first quote, you are a man. He wasn't. But I got your message, document all. Thanks.
Been there. Learned all those same lessons myself along life's road. You handled it with more grace than I did. LOL Hope the video makes up some of your shortfall!!
Man I feel for you - made furniture for 20 years for a living & only got stung once but did get enough down that I didn't lose on the job except for some labor. Best of luck to you in future from a master carpenter retired now in Michigan. By the way - very nice job on table - 10 grand was good deal for " Mr. no pay"
Dude, I've totally been in a situation similar! Many lessons learned, hopefully your making those adjustments to what you can control and you can ultimately turn it into something for the better.
That’s great advice, never ever quote something until you’ve seen it in enough detail to be comfortable with your number.
If they pressure you and say “I just need a ballpark budget for now later you confirm it when I get you more details.” that always ends up being an unintentional trap.
The problem is that once people hear a lower number they will always think that that was the original real price and that anything else is just price hiking…
That sucks brother. I had a similar situation this year. I put in a ton of good faith work on someone else's business, flew to the other side of the country to make sure everything was cool. Ultimately he cut me off, I might have had some legal standing but a few thousand isn't worth the time. I see you man. We learned lessons this year. Hopefully the 3k didn't hurt too bad. Good luck. Bigger and better things for us!
My wife bought be some of your french cleat holders and absolutely love them. Lessons are learned and we grow from them. Thanks for sharing. I will continue to support your channel and store.
Thank you both. I really appreciate it. The support means so much.
I made a similar mistake once by doing everything verbally for a friend of my wife. It became such a disaster that I finally had to to tell them that I could no longer complete the entire project and they could keep the work done. Since then I have focused my efforts elsewhere and haven't really taken on any new projects because I don't want things to go that way again. I am sure there will be a point I am ready to take on a large build again but for now, I have other things to focus on. Best of luck to you.
Sorry to hear of this. The same thing happened to me and a friend with a company we started together. It didn’t end well. You’re in my prayers. 🙏
You may not have got the money you earned but you walked away knowing you are the better person. That's worth a lot!
I am a hobby woodworker, but that being said, I’ve been making custom entry doors, fancy garden gates, built in cabinets, pantries, sewing cabinets, furniture, etc for 35 years. I’ve made many custom works for acquaintances or friends of friends without issue. I always give them a drawing and wait for approval before giving the price. I discuss the pricing before the project starts and provide a spec sheet with pricing prior to approval and starting the project. Never had a problem until I do work for friends… THEN I feel like I’m being nickel and dimed and questioned as to why I can’t make the same thing for the IKEA price. I finished a custom bathroom vanity for a friend during the pandemic. Communicated that the price of materials/hardware/sheet goods had skyrocketed. She still wanted to go through with the project. I quoted a high price to guard against the jacked up supply prices and told her that it may come in slightly less and had her sign the work order. She made a change order halfway through which I accommodated and I communicated that it would cost an additional $ amount which she agreed to. Her bathroom contractor was slow and I had completed the project but he wasn’t ready to install so I held onto the cabinet for 3 months waiting for him. The bathroom is finally done and she calls me to tell me that she found a cabinet online that she just loves and wants to back out. I ask her where she’s going to install the custom vanity that I built for her because I am not going to eat the cost of building it for her bathroom and I have a signed work order. In the meantime, the online purchase arrives and it’s a piece of crap so now she calls back and tries to play nice because the bathroom is done except for the sink/vanity. She got it a month later at the original quoted full price plus the additional cost for the change order. No discount from me.
Sorry about your experience Chris. I hate that for you. You are a great guy. Love your videos and your cute daughter when she does her cameos.
Feel for ya brother! I do military retirement boxes. I have done simple to extremely difficult and have built my reputation for quality over many years. I started doing custom work for some of the officers and senior enlisted (mostly due to high cost of custom work) and that got even more attention, but it also gave me the rep of "unique one offs" Just had a retiree ask for a VERY specialized box and having never even attempted something like this I worked with him (over text and phone calls) to set a starting price of around 600-700 dollars. I told him that the price could be a little higher as I progress as each piece of the box will require hand tooling and fitting. When all said and done, I had over 550.00 in material costs and while still trying to make good on the estimate I called him and told him the final out the door would be around 850.00 which was higher than discussed but with my time and the custom work and materials I was making about 1.30/hour on a two-month project. Unfortunately, he backed out and now I have a very specific retirement box that probably cannot unload. For me lesson learned and for custom work, no less than 50% upfront and 350.00.- 500.00 nonrefundable once I begin on the project. Has resulted in some slow down, but I never wanted this much custom work to begin with.