Is headphone burn in real ? Fight me in the comments ;)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.ย. 2024
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customcans.co....
Time to try to find out whether headphone burn-in is real or just a placebo effect.
I am pretty certain I have heard headphones change slightly over time but I have also been told that it is just my ears getting used to the sound... I thought it would be interesting to see if I could test to see if it is real or not.
So I have tried to be as scientific as possible to get some actual measurements.
Full disclosure. in the 1st half of the video I had the headphones slightly too far forward on the rig so it gave a bad test - I then adjusted them and re-tested off off-camera before the 24-hour test. So if the eagle-eyed amongst you noticed the headphones moved slightly between the two tests, I assure you that they stayed untouched and in the same position for both frequency plots.
I would love to hear what you think in the comments and what your opinion on burn-in is.
the only real burn in is brain burn in. the more you listen to a headphone the more you equalize to it.
I think you may be right
100% agree. There is measurable outside of margin of error burn in with most headphones, but the difference is the equivalent of a 0.5q +/- 0.05db parametric eq filter when it is there, and you will hear significantly larger differences from changing any part of your setup like your dac, amp, preamp, cables, or even interconnects (if you've got extremely old or rusty rcas for instance)
RTings did a very detailed write up on burn in. They concluded that any differences are basically margin of error. Burn in isn't really a thing. I don't think it should be a thing because if the drivers are changing after 24, 48 etc hours then that means they are degrading and will likely continue to do so. I do agree that after a while pads will wear and change shape a bit, foam discs will start to disintegrate and the sound will change a bit. Pads do make a massive difference to sound. I've got a set of Meze Elites and have the two sets of pads it came with as well as Empyrean leather pads and its a total different beast with all 3. If I could combine the bass response and tightness from the Empyrean leather pads with the openness and airy treble of the Alcantara pads with the earcup diameter of the hybrid pads, I'd have my perfect pad!
Thanks, I will have to check it out.
I just ordered a mod set and right angle cable for my HD6XX's, you guys are great! I'm looking forward to receiving it and making my headphones my own!
Thanks for the order - They have been very popular so I am pretty sure you will like it.... Enjoy
Pads wear in which can change the sound a lot.
Yes, you are right
I think our hormones, mood, state of mind when listening, and also other external factors like hair length, ear wax (gross sorry), etc can all change our perception and enjoyment of music.
I also think room temperature and seasonal changes in humidity can play a big role in how headphones and speakers behave.
Maybe these all contribute to our burn in theory where we swear by changes in sound 😅
I had not considered temperature and humidity - that might be an interesting experiment as well once we get some more sensitive equipment
Room humidity makes a big difference in my experiments, would like to see a measurement test with a humidity monitor and a humidifier@@CustomCans !!
Thats a good point tbf, its already been proven that humans perceive the exact same tone differently by simply looking at different colors. Its kind of why I have a hard time accepting the answer to this question being a simple yes or no, because it may be true or untrue from a spesific data set, but funtionally if we could understand and control what makes a certain experience and reproduce it, then I think music will be better for it. Even if that includes factors that cant be measured from your listening gear. The whole point of music is to convey or induce some kind of emotion after all.
I believe burn in to be real but not important for most transducers, but from what I've seen the effect is much more pronounced on a planar driver, particularly those that have an internal driver resonance around 8k as with much of the 14mm driver iems that came out recently. The moondrop stellaris is supposedly the most pronounced in this but most of them have a similar peak that may be measurably lessened after some usage, and to a few that I have heard from audibly as well.
Yes, I can't wait to try the same thing on some planars when we get more in stock
I think people go crazy about source, cables, burn in, etc.
When the one thing that makes a drastic difference are the pads, either changing them or them just getting squished with use…
I will have to do some more pad experiments soon
Was definitely a thing for speakers years ago so I don’t see any reason headphones would be different I suspect the larger the driver the more differences will be seen, that said there’s very few people with good enough hearing to be able to tell a difference unless the speakers were really stiff and sounded bad to start with which has been my experience with some speakers in the past, I can’t say I have ever heard a difference with headphones my focals sounded pretty great straight out of the box and if they changed my ears certainly couldn’t perceive it.
The real problem is that the seating on the rig can change the frequency response, so it’s basically impossible to show whether a change is outside the margin of error if it’s small. It’s essentially unfalsifiable.
Yes - I do plan on doing another test with planar headphones and making a rigid mount so they can't move and the pad can't deform
Why do people who believe in burn in only say it improved the sound, never made it sound worse ?
Lol - you are right ;)
Hopefully this doesn't read as a snarky or dismissive comment because it isn't. I've yet to experience burn-in making a "positive" impact on sound quality for any headphones I owned or have owned which includes brands like ZMF, Focal, DCA, Meze, and HiFiMan and includes both dynamics and planars. All of my headphones have, more or less, had the same sound characteristics as the day I got them. Any perceptible tuning differences have come from pad wear or swaps. I absolutely believe that there is physical change to a driver unit and its materials, be it wear or tensioning, over time. I would never argue that this doesn't occur I just remain skeptical that the "loosening up" of the driver over time universally improves sound quality. It seems much more likely that burn-in is misattribution to other factors, with my belief in perceptions of a change in sound being more psychological than physical. I remain skeptical that there are % intervals of mechanical wear that are universally beneficial. Surely there must be a point at which mechanical wear is eventually detrimental to performance. It's extremely difficult for me to understand how we are to know at what point the driver is in its optimal state of being or wear and how that would even sound sonically given every driver and every implementation is different, if even slightly. How then do they all result in the same sort of description of the sound "opening up" over time? To me is just seems like there's an expectation of headphones to improve with time or burn-in.. therefore that's what folks perceive when they have a couple of sympathetic listening sessions. Instances where their new headphones eventually synergize with what they're listening to and how they're doing so. I think we sort of overlook and undervalue the emotion of listening to music, and I think folks attribute too many positive characteristics to miniscule changes in what are relatively small moving parts. It's not something I get angry or upset about nor do I discount anyone's personal experiences, I'm just relating my own while advocating for less worry about needing to burn something in, in order to enjoy it.
Yep after this test I am pretty certain that burn is not a major thing on dynamic headphones - as you say it will probably vary a little from one driver design to another. I will be really interested to see if the results are as close on some planars when we get some back in
While almost everything else you write is exactly on point, you end up making the same mistake as the people who swear they can hear burn-in. You can only confidently claim that alll your headphones have had the same sound as the day you got them if 1) you recorded your headphones the day you got them and compared that with a later recording using identical equipment and methods; 2) you could go back in time to the day you bought your headphone and bring that same headphone with you, so you can compare the sonic characteristics of the same unit right there and then. The next best thing you could do is go back to the shop with your old pair of headphones and audition several new units of identical model. It doesn't seem you're basing your statement on having done that, though, because I expect that you would find that your old pair does indeed sound different and the new ones sound more similar to each other. This can be either due to pad break-in/degradation, which is certainly a real thing, or due to silent changes between revisions, which often have to do with pads as well.
The fact is, ample research shows that the human auditory memory is limited to the short-term memory system, which is between 4 and 7 seconds depending on the individual; thus it's physically impossible to remember the way a headphone sounds, or compare it, beyond that tiny timeframe, and if you've ever tried to A/B some headphones, you know it's pretty damn difficult even inside it.
@@Unbrutal_Rawr if you re-read what I wrote please note I'm careful not to say my headphones "sound exactly the same". I said that they more or less have the same characteristics. I cannot account for anyone else's hearing or audio memory other than my own. The way I listen to determine how something sounds is overtime, passively and actively. Then I ask myself what characteristics I can sense over time. I have never noted in this process a headphone or IEM sounding so sufficiently different that it's been noteworthy to me. That doesn't mean all my devices are immutable, that's not my contention and it's never been. Very succinctly what I am saying is I've never experienced, consciously, the effects of burn-in. I've never heard a headphone or IEM in week 3 or 4 and thought "wow, why does that sound different?". I've owned a Stellia, an Empyrean, an Aeolus, an Auteur, an Eikon, a DCA Noire, an Arya, the Sundara, a Radiance, an Elegia, a 6xx, both Devas, a 7hz Timeless, an IE300, an Argon, the Cascades.. at no point have any of them perceptively changed their sound characteristics in my listening yet I can agree with other owners regarding (generally) how they sound. I can describe their traits and it can match other user accounts. So I don't think the lynchpin here is audio memory. I'm only providing a testimonial that with regards to necessitating burn-in, my experience haven't warranted the practice. You are free to take or leave my account.
Nice vid! It looks like the headphones shifted a little bit overnight on the ears. This might also be why the graph is a bit different.
Yes - I mentioned it in the description... On the 1st part of the vid, I did not get a good seal on the rig and had to re-do the measurements with a new pair positioned slightly differently - I wish I had said that in the video. I am shooting a second one with some planar headphones and will be more scientific this time ;)
@@CustomCans Ah I see! I did indeed not read the full description :) Thanks for the info anyway! Looking forward to the planar vid.
So, I gave a bad analogy, well, it's decent, but not entirely accurate so I just thought about that a bit and have a better idea of what I was trying to say regarding burn-in. I could use a car that was in storage for a while on blocks.....that car wouldn't you say would handle better after it was driven around for 200 miles are so. The engine seals would all get lubricated again and the shocks would settle and dampen. Everything would wake up again and that's how I see burn in. Take it a step further. Your first trip out to the mountain for a snowboard excursion. It takes the first few runs to get reacquainted with edge pressure and recondition/gain coordination with those rarely used muscles that are now front and center on demand to perform. Would you say your first run you felt the most in tune with the mountain? Would you say you could read the terrain perfectly? Would you say you had perfect muscle coordination, memory and flexibility? My answer is "No" and that's how I see burn in. The wake and go performance of drivers that have been sitting unstretched are going to perform poorly compared to something that has been worked out with various frequencies stretching the drivers at varying intervals. That's how I see it and I think it's pretty obvious.
I have pitchforks and torches for sale, I'm probably offended by this truth, or something.
Lol - I am checking out of the window for lynch mobs as we speak
@@CustomCans 🤣🤣
I don't really have a say whether burn in is real or not. All I know is that drivers are mechanical devices so they can change from usual wear and tear such as burn in. The change can be so miniscule that even measuring equipment would have a hard time detecting any deviation or so drastic that it doesn't even sound the way it did out of the box.
What I think is silly, however, is the prevailing notion that burn in results in an exclusively better or more "refined" sounding headphone. Audiophiles always burn their headphones in and it always results in a positive result. Why isn't there any headphone that sounds worse after burn in? And if there is, why are they being sold at all in the first place? Surely, a mechanical device such as a headphone driver can have variations that can lead to it being worse no matter how well or how precise the driver was designed. Otherwise, that just goes against the laws of physics! (But then again, audiophiles do like ignoring the laws of physics with their magic rocks you place on top of your amp to change its sound) This is the reason why I'm leaning more towards the "i don't care about burn in, but people are being silly about it" camp.
There's also the psychoacoustic part of it whereby our brain makes us believe that a headphone sounds better because it was used for far longer (be it by your or someone else), thus older (burned in) headphones > newer headphones. But that's something not alot of audiophiles are ready to talk about. Alot of people like to say that they don't fall to this sort of mental trap but the fact of the matter is that none of us are immune to it.
That being said, what I do believe in is that cleaning your ears changes the sound of a headphone far more than burning it in. :p
Playing devils advocate.... Before I tune any headphone designs, I always let the driver run for a couple of days just in case. If burn in were real and other headphone designers did the same, that may explain why they would get better rather than worse after a burn in... they would have had their final tweaking and tuning done with the driver in a "burnt in state". I am not claiming it is real but that would explain the phenomenon.
Grew up on PFunk but now looks like I'll be on a JFunk adventure! Sadly only found your channel last night when searching YT for Sundara Closed reviews, and gobbled up parts I, II and the mods. Interesting burn-in discussion maybe more relevant depending on driver type, earpad and brain acclimatisation.
Coincidentally I've recently been looking for a balanced cable for my Ananda's but wanted something modular with changeable source Jack's, 2.5, 4.4 and 3.5se, preferably from here in the UK. Google modular cables searches didn't bring you guys up, but even found Hart Cables in the US! Glad you are now on my radar and will be heading there to see what's available.
Amazing video presentations and topics, keep up the great work.
Hi Vlad.
Glad to head you are enjoying the videos.
No we don't currently make modular cables. Normally I would say we could make you a custom one but we are fully booked up with work until the end of the month at the moment
@Custom Cans Thanks for the prompt reply. No problem but great to hear you guys are really busy. From the blooper video, seems to be a fun working environment!
I think burn in is a real thing, but affect some headphones more than others. I also think all the things mentioned here is true, and that its just the combination of them that we notice. Pads wearing in, us getting used to the sound, cones softening up etc, imo it all compounds to make the experience of a "burn in".
I do have a theory on this though, in that everything is measurable, but we dont always measure for the relevant thing. For instance, in gaming and computer graphics, frames per second have always been this standard benchmark and measurement of how well something runs, but FPS alone has been severely outdated for at least 15 years because anyone who has any insight into how that works will know that humans are incredibly sensitive to dropped frames, dips and latency, and that even the tiniest of these will be picked up and experienced as "not smooth".
I think this is the same, I think that the measurement is the proverbial FPS, and all the little squiggles and peaks that was removed in the 2nd measurement, is essentially like the dropped frames, dips and latency. It may be small, within error or considered insignificant but I like to think that we underestimate human senses and that we are able to pick out things this small even if we dont understand whats going on or what we are hearing. We can see a movement happening for 1/200th of a second, we can touch and feel 1 micron objects. Its not crazy to think we could hear a jagged frequency too, right?
Or I might be full of crap and have no idea what im talking about, but this is what makes sense in my brain at least. Measurements are superior, but they only show what you measure for.
I bet bass is better on burned in unit due to less stiffness in the driver but still I feel it will be negligible
Yes on this model the difference tuned out to be negligible - I can't wait to try it on some planar headphones as well
I saw quite some measurements on it and the conclusion was that there was no difference. Sure it can happen with some models but I doubt its that widespread as people say. It's just your brain getting used to the sound signature and learning to compensate.
Yes, having read the comments, you are probably right
My assumption is that if there is any difference it wouldnt be significant enough to be measurable outside of variance.
After all these decades no one has measured burn in taking place, yet people make all kind of existential excuses for that and tap dance around the fact.
Yep - I went into this blind and was genuinely surprised that the frequency chart hardly changed at all
Some defective headphones can sound normal at first, but slowly degrade over about a week or so.
Yeh I suppose that could happen
I made two measurements of the Theil-Small parameters of a loudspeaker; one when new, one after playing for 24 hours.
There were differences, but what can I conclude?
Is it audible? Probably not - other factors have significant influence too.
Was the change the result of the heating effect of power dissipated in the motor assembly? Probably, but does the sound change as you listen over time, as it warms up?
I think that burn-in is real, but its audibility is questionable.
Similarly, the skin-effect is real, which only becomes significant at radio frequencies, but that doesn't prevent cable manufacturers using it in marketing brochures.
One side is "I feel like it's real", the other side is "we did several tests and they were all within margins of error, it is not real". So it's just not really a fun argument in the end of the day
It is all part of my secret plan to get more comments on videos so the TH-cam algorithm thinks I am interesting ;)
Whether burn-in is or isn't a thing, it doesn't hurt. I burn-in for 48 hours and always have been satisfied with the results. Always appreciate the videos, Thanks. Cheers
Yep, I think I am in the "not sure it is real but it can't hurt" camp.
First good content as always, for me the most change happens with dynamic driver IEMs rather than headphones. A headphone used for a while do give me a more refined sound.
What's interesting is that on IEM there is no pads changing, and if you have measure before and after 100hours the Frequency response is near the same. but if you look at the decay measurements, you will notice that its now slower. This is probably since the driver, glue or who knows has loosened up.
So for every impression or review I prefer to not say anything before a day burn in at least.
Yes - good idea, I will have to do some waterfall charts when I test the planar headphones.
I don't think burn-in is gonna be real after 24 hours. I also think your buyers who say the new pair sounds worse are right. There is no doubt that pad break-in is a thing, and there are many measurements over at diyaudioheaven as well as other places that show this. A difference of 1 or 2dB more mids and 1 or 2dB less of a treble spike might not look like much on a graph, but it's a massive difference to our ears - you can check by setting up a +2dB low shelf coupled with a -2dB high shelf, with the frequency set anywhere between 1 and 4kHz for both. This is what is called "tonal balance" and some reviewers (like Oratory1990) mark it as an additional straight line on the graph, typcally going from 100Hz to 10kHz.
If the driver "softened up" in the process of burn-in, this would introduce more driver distortion and make the headphones sound worse, potentially bass-breaking-up worse. One of the top few priorities in driver design is to make it as stiff as possible. An ideal driver is infinitely stiff, and thus has absolute zero distrotion. A comparison with the car engine can only be drawn for massive loudspeakers with a relatively heavy diaphragm that have a suspension mechanism. It's that mechanism that can potentially experience break-in, increasing the driver's travel and the bass response, as well as preventing it from bottoming out.
I definitely think there is an initial break in from out of the box. I dont think it needs 200 hours, but something like 3-6 hours of continuous playing when straight out of box is going to be of benefit. Its like anything.....bike tires brand new are too slick and they need a few days to wear into the rubber. Its just use. Common sense says that a driver will loosen up over time and its performance will drop in accordance to what your graph showed. Burn in is real imo, but its not a magical thing. I dont believe it will transform a sound signature, but it will imo help the driver function at a more fluid level which I do think would have an immediate impact on the playback of a track and would certainly affect how an instrument is portrayed. I don't think there really is any question if burn in is real. The real question is at what point does use become a detriment to performance.
I understand that losing your desk could be an inconvenience, but I would be curious to see how this would be after a few days. Also, the first headphones that come to mind for burn-in are the HiFiMAN Sundara. From my perspective, they sound muddy and flat from a fresh box compared to a used pair. When I was first climbing up the hifi headphone ladder, everyone raved about the Sundaras, so I tested them in a local shop, and I was confused why they were raved about. They didn't sound great, but a few months later, I listened to them from a friend of a friend, and they sounded better. (No EQ or modifications.)
Yes, We recently did a second test video with linger play time and using hifiman HE400se
You took the first measure from cold and as the diaphragm warms up, it becomes somewhat a little more flexible so, the second measurement should have been taken after letting the headphones rest for a few hours.
Yes, in the second video, I did a measurement and then then another after a cool down period
Yes and it varies between gear. R2R DACs need a lot of Burn-In (50+ Hrs), Planars need (~30+) and most other Headphones and IEMs need ~20+ Hrs. It also depends on your sensitivity and how trained your brain is at processing the sounds and also to some extent how resolving you overall chain is. Some probably cannot tell the difference, mostly newbies in this hobby or those who don't have good hearing because of loud listening, age... e.t.c.
I was a DJ for over 20 years so my hearing is probably not the best ;)
burnin is a thing like pure silver cables 😊
but serious, the only thing are the pads like everyone is experienced with the sennheiser hd600, hd650, hd660 ...
Yes - I will try and get a few more data points on the next test but I suspect it is mainly down to the pads changing shape
Burn-in, of course, is a thing as with any physical device with moving or flexible parts in it because laws of physics still exist in this world. Although the resulting measurement should not only include FR but also dynamic range, impulse response and waterfall graphs as well as distortion. This is a very complex phenomenon. Since burn-in loosens stiff drivers, it mainly changes the excursion ability of diaphragms. It shouldn't change the FR that much by default, although it depends on a headphone. Some IEMs like TinHiFi demonstrate really noticeable difference in FR after burn-in, others not so much. Changes may include attacks and trailing ends of tones, compression and other dynamic artifacts which are not necessarily represented in FR graphs but are still very audible.
After all the comments on this video, I will definitely do more testes on the planars when I test them and try to get impulse, waterfalls and a few more graphs for them to compare
1. If one changes the placement of the headphones in the VERY SLIGHTEST, definetly under a millimetre, the response would be slightly different.
2. Frequency response is not the only big factor for sound. One really big factor is the transient response, and response in general, that makes it possible hear more detail if its faster, and that could also have an impact.
3. Our perception of sound is not solid even over only hours of time
I got my 1st pair of headphones a couple of months ago and on the App, there is a feature called "Smart Burn-in", so I decided to try it out, even though I did not know what it was. Then I saw written that it would take 12hrs to do so, and I thought it was a long time but decided to go for it. Then I realised that was only the 1st phase and there would be 4 in total, with the 3rd one being 70hrs! However, as I had already started, I decided to finish and on the last day of 2023, it was finally over, after 2 months of purchase and over 150 hrs burning them in. In the end, I do not see any difference, basically. 😅🙄
So many hours (and some sleep hours) wasted!!! 😤
Long ago with an M50 I felt that they were unbearably sharp in the highs even if I had just been listening to another pair at the shop. I left them playing over night and it was "fine" in the morning. I doubt brain burn-in took place in 2 minutes nor did the pads change in any way. My guess would be the rubber holding the transducer can be a bit stiff early on?
Yes - I will have to run a few more tests as I have had similar experiences my self
Not moving the headphones can still lead to different measurements. The seal to the rig is potentially altered by changes in the pads state of deformation over time while reaching a stable state in relation to the stresses from the simulated ear.
You are right - I have plans to take pads out of the equation for the next one
@@CustomCansSoft PVC tubes of identical proportions fitted to each driver perhaps? The curve of the sound signature will differ from standard measurements but eventual changes might be easier to note.
Only headphone so far where I have experienced burn in has been the Sundara which had vocals that sounded very metallic and shrill when unboxed and after a couple of days it got smoother and more natural , every other headphone has stayed the same ( MDR-1A, X2HR,K702,K361)
I do have a couple of different HiFiMan models on the way in a few weeks so I will use one of those for the next test
Just got my own Sundaras 10 days ago and the metallicized mids have only fully smoothed out a few days ago, so I'd honestly say they need 5 days to a week of regular use or just 1 overnight high volume burn in.
I think the burn-in test is void because the zebra jumper was a longer pile than the checked one worn 24 hours later and diffused the fq response.
Damn.... you are right, I should have been wearing a lab coat for both tests
@@CustomCans 🤣🤣
I once had a new Sennheiser HD 598, which sounded like you would listen to your music through cardboard and sold it. Veiled would be an understatement. A few years later i bought a used one for cheap which sounded clear and perfect.
Yeh, I have had similar experiences which is why I thought it would be an interesting test.... more testing to come hopefully
Regarding the video of the final form of the hd 25, I think it could be the hd 25SE with the kit and the dekoni pads, since the SE would usually be on sale and on top of that it brings a case, be nice if you can do the measurement of that way to see what comes out
If drivers actually required burning in, you’d think that it would simply be part of the standard manufacturing process so that headphones would sound as good as possible fresh out of the box. So even if it was real, having to do it yourself would still be for the primary purpose of using up your return policy window.
Realistically, there’s probably little enough of that hypothetical initial stiffness in the manufactured state to overcome that it gets worked out in QC.
I think, if burn is is real, burning in every pair would add to the cost a little if it needs to be multiple hours but you are right... they must all get an initial test during QC which would give that initial flex. I look forward to doing another test with a more focused setup to try an be a bit more conclusive
If someone decides that burn in is a thing and sets up their rig to burn in their new headphones, then when they go to listen to them for the first time after that they will be already decided in their mind that this was the correct thing to do, so that will affect how they perceive the sound. If they didn't do burn in on a set of cans, and started to listen, they would also have preconceived ideas that "it is ok if it does not sound right, they haven't been burned in yet!". And on it goes....odd how burn in never goes the other way and makes things sound worse? After hearing about the Harman blind tests done years ago where speaker manufacturers failed to spot even their own speakers among others in the test, I think it is all kind of pointless. Brain burn in needs to be talked about more, because in those conditions where our brains are not affecting us as much and it is pure sound we will fail those tests, so what is affecting our experience the most with music? Yes pads break in and change sound, yes drivers might change or clip or degrade with time, but the power of the mind rules most of these discussions, including a lot of comments in these youtube videos. After all, we are in a hobby where people claim to hear differences between usb cables so I guess we shouldn't be surprised. If anyone doubts this there are videos on blind tests done with classical instruments [The Paris Double-Blind Violin Experiment], where a lot of classical performers listened and thought they were hearing the most expensive violin but in truth it was the el cheapo and modern one of the bunch. If trained musicians are failing the test, what is happening with hobbyists with headphones? I'd like to see someone explain that away~
It is fascinating. I think I had better believe in burn in so the placebo effect makes me appreciate my headphones more over time ;)
I may also start the rumour that testing headphones stops your hair from receding. Then when I hear it second hand and believe it the placebo effect will sort that out at the same time ;)
For dynamics I agree, but Dan Clark recommends app. 200 hrs of burn in. Audeze burn in their cans 🤷♂ dunno but I suspect its more a matter of psycho acoustic's.
It will be really interesting to see what happens when I try the same thing on some planars
Ive always, well a good 95% of the time found a change with burn in - all be it from subtle (BA drivers) to profound (such as ADLC or planar drivers)!! - I should add I use exactly the same process every time & have burnt in a good 70+ IEMs / Headphones now. For pleasure I listen as an Audiophile - I love sound and for a profession I am a full time sound engineer.
It should be noted as well there are a lot of caveats involved such as the 'quality' of the listener...An audiophile will listen quite differently to a HiFi/music lover.
This has been my direct experience time and time again, following exactly the same methods.
As it is our ear consciousness or mind that 'hears' audio and in that, that our mind is constantly changing and is effected by many things especially tiredness, hunger etc etc then combined with the unique ear structures of individuals of course we all 'hear' differently.
Another point - There has not yet been equipment made that is made for purpose or is subtle enough to hear subtle changes.
If you look into the equipment or tests on the original 20-20 theory or the Harman curve you'll find they were way WAY unsuitably done and performed very badly - No where near accurately or professionally enough so its kind of laughable that people grasp so tightly at certain aspects of audio without really understanding deeply where their understanding come from (no disrespect intended)
Another point - It depends on the driver. IMR Acoustics have brought MANY people around to believing in burn in >through their own experience< IMR's own - bespoke CNT / ADLC / Planar / Bone Conduction driver IEM's ALL without exception have seen changes from burn in from 300 to one example being over 600 hours NEEDED until the sound fully settles.
It should be noted though this has been an exception - Havent seen this so much change from burn in from other companies IEM's . . .
Annnnd yet another point - 'BURN IN' is an unchangeable development or characteristic or change in various elements of an IEM's sound signature where as 'BRAIN BURN IN' is the mind settling into or relaxing into how the sound IS of a headphone and is changeable depending on many things such as time of day, mood etc etc. They are 2 different things - people seem to confuse the two
Just a few thoughts from my experiences. (Not just based on something I read once or have no tangible experience of) unlike most vocal burn in deny-ers :D
Thanks for your thoughts on it. I am still in the agnostic camp where I am not sure it makes a difference but it can't hurt. We will be building a fancier test rig this year so may be able to run some better tests as well
I fell like burn in is real but it probably negligible
And more to do with the materials becoming less rigid more flexible the drivers brand new are a little stiff and will get more flexible the longer used
Also I don't feel like pads are a part of burn that a hole other category like wear in but over time I imagine the pads fit better making better seal as they get use to your head so will change the sound if you won't to test burn in it would be based around just the drivers itself I feel
Yes I think you are right
All these years and again people do think Burn in and Cables do change sound.
The most important part of the audio chain is between our ears. Hi-Fi salesmen have figured this out decades ago. It is not (just) about how gear sounds, but how it makes you feel. Slap some wood side panels on an amp and suddenly it sounds 'warm' and 'nostalgic'. Put some expensive metals on a speaker cable tip, and surely the sound is richer and more detailed. I think headphone burn in falls in the same category. We have certain associations with worn items, especially when they are from a different era. We like our worn headphones for the same reason we like a worn guitar or our classic car with patina; pride of ownership which in my opinion can be enough to influence your perception of their sound positively.
My beyerdynamic DT240 were one of the worst headphones I've ever heard on the first day I had then. I almost decided to send them back, but running them in overnight made a real difference.
If you decide, one day, to sell sweaters, hoodies, and jackets, I'm in !
That is something I have been thinking of doing so may have to get to work designing some
@@CustomCans Ohh yeah !
In some headphones it is and in some it is not.
Not burn-in. Mechanical driver break-in.
Yes, perhaps that is a better description
Bro happened with me, bought a sony headphones sounded shit out of the box, no bass absolutely. After few days adjusting the EQ (which didn't work before) sounded a loooottt better
Yes - I think I have experienced it on a few pairs but I need to get some decent proof one way or the other at some point
If burn in is a thing, which I am not sure, shouldh't there be any methodology, proper way or something? If I do a totaly horrible comparison to car engine break in, we've been told, not to go over 3000 rpm, or "taking it easy" or what you've heard. I mean, should we start with lower frequencies, or high, who knows, or even mids and then high or low, and at what volume level, I am going crazy already?
If burn in is a thing that means that we degrade our headphones on purpose for a good reason, we quickly get rid of the first bad behaviour and then we assume a nice logarithmic wearing out phase for how long? When should we change the drivers or buy a new pair?
There not as complex or moving as violently as an engine but yes, I have seen a few different procedures online, Normally starting off at a moderate volume and then increasing it whilst playing pink or white noise. You used to be able to get CDs with burn in tracks on them
i think on ear is the wrong choice for such a test, the earpads will dig in deeper over time, this is not a real head that moves, hmm.
i think burn in is real but varies depending on the headphone.
Yes, we did a part 2 with a better setup and will be doing a part 3 with temperature and humidity tests
Is there anyway to try your dt 770 v2 mod balanced? (If you guys operate in Cheltenham I'm not far away)
Yes you would just need to pop us an email and let us know in advance when you would like to pop in and we can arrange it
Maybe you had a magnitude 7 earthquake overnight
We do get a lot of random poltergeist activity in the office with things jumping off shelves so maybe ;)
Hello, I have pair of hifiman edition xs. For my taste they sound great, but not without the flaws. for my understanding tuning open-back planars relatively easy using foam between the cups and grill, maybe some damping material and so on. I REALLY, want to do it, but i don't have equipment to do so. Maybe you could look at those? P.S. Love your content
I think burn in is real but takes longer than 24 hours. Maybe a few weeks.
I normally have a 24/48hr burn in session of white noise on new pair of cans, It cant hurt them. Just something I always do.
I normally do the same as well... as you say, it can't hurt
they moved
Real but 24hrs isn't enough time
AKG 712 PRO - before burn in >> sound like crap, after 70+ hours burn in > one of the best headphones under 800 bucks 4 me.
so burn in a thing, but maybe not for all headphones.
Yes, I need more data points and testes to see if I can come to a more solid conclusion
Different Pads definitely affect sound.
Yes I did a whole video recently measuring different pads
Well, if you measure curve after 10 minutes of use. Then again after burn in does the curve change at all?
You should check out the second burn in video... we got a little more scientific and are hoping to make a 3rd one where we test under controlled temperature and humidity
Headphones burn is real. Speakers burn in is real, in general.
Coming from the electric guitar world, I´ve swapped 4 times my guitar amp cabinet speakers, and all of them needed a break in period to get rid of the stiffness that caused them to sound a little bit shrill and "plastiki".
Talking about headphones, I get a pair of sennheiser hd25. They needed like a week or so to get rid of the sensation menctioned above.
For those who claim that is just your ears getting used to the sound, well, maybe there is something related to it, but I have to say that when I replaced the original cable for the Custom Cans copper one, the higher frequencies where cutting like a knife, to the point I had to swap the filters to custom made of felt. Like a month later of intense use, I started to feel a lacking of air, so I went back to the original filters, and everything has been on the right place since then.
love your work, nerd
i don't think you will measure the burn-in, but there are plenty of factors we can hear but can't measure that well...
Nerd crew for life.
Burn-in is very real. How much burn-in is necessary varies though. Take my Focal Clear MG, for example. They exhibited a noticeable change after only ~10 hours. My Hifiman HE6SEv2? Took closer to 75 hours. The DCA Stealth and Expanse will experience several noticeable changes over the course of a full 100 hours. There are dynamic driver headphones that require so little that they might come burned in via quality testing from the factory.
EDIT: Look at the headphones @5:34 and then again @5:36. They've been shifted on the rig. That would explain the difference in the measurement.
EDIT 2: It's been pointed out to me that this was stated in the description. My fault for not reading it. My apologies.
Read the description
@@J3ymzi Shows what I get for not doing my due diligence. Probably should have been in a pinned comment, or even better, said in the video, but that's no excuse for me not reading. Thank you.
All I have to say about the thing in this video is.
On ear headphones are awful.
It all depends on the use case, we sell a lot of them to people with enough money to have any type they want and sometimes lightweight, compact robustness wins.
@@CustomCans I find that information fascinating.
Thank you.
Bash!
Ouch
Yes burn in is real. Maybe should wait more days that's gonna be more interesting.
I think 7 days would be perfect. Still surprised how that changes after only 24 hours.
Yes - I may have to do a week of solid playback next time and try and do tests throughout the week so see how it changes over time
@@CustomCans thanks for the reply. Waiting for the next one
I think burn in is not a real thing
Does your website actually have customer service? I emailed your info@ email address last week with a simple stock question and have had no response for a week. Not sure where else to query this as you don't respond to emails via your own website!
I can imagine how frustrating that is. Unfortunately we are getting far more emails than we could possibly reply to. We are prioritising emails from people who have already purchased something and need help. If you have already made a purchase. Please email again and make sure your order number is in the title. If you are hoping to get some pre-sales help I would hang on until March as we are pretty backed up with orders this month.
@@CustomCans I appreciate the direct response. I will come back in a few weeks and see if the item I wanted is back in stock. I guess it's good to be too busy!
It sounds for sure better after some 100 hours of play...seriously. It depends on the headphone.
Yes - I may have to get a few more data points with other models and longer times
Feel the Burn! Oops sorry too political? Everything gets better with age. 😆
That is what I tell my self every birthday ;)
@crinacle
Nooooo. Don't let crinacle see my sub standard testing equipment ;)
@@CustomCans I think you are on the right track :D
Looking at the two videos, the earpads have moved on the rig ,you can clearly see,
Yes if you check out the description on the video... When I ran the 1st test on camera, I had them too far forward and did not seal properly and did not pick up the bass frequencies well. I binned the on camera test and then re-did it with a new pair positioned better on the rig before leaving them to run for the 24hrs.
That said, for the planar test I do plan on getting a more stable set up