How am I supposed to learn about pokemon without a 15 minute tangent to start the video? Also, no bathroom break, that is so inconsiderate to the viewer. I will not be renting out my local cinema to screen this for my friends.
Jirachi iron head is very much not banned? Also to anyone that says you can stall Iron Heads on jirachi, iron head has 24 pp, and has no immunities. Dynamic punch only has 8pp.
"Just stall out the PP" should never be considered a valid argument. Unless the move has very low PP (8, realistically) and needs to be used many times to have an impact, that's just an unreasonable thing to do. Stalling our Aromatherapies in a Stall mirror is doable, but it would be ridiculous to tell people they can just run Kingambit out of Sucker Punches in Gen 9.
Something i feel people always ignore that frustrates me, that the pokemon brings additional utility to the table will make its broken aspects WORSE. Like, "People use Jirachi for all sorts of things besides iron head flinch, people only use Machamp for Dynamic Punch" is such a frustrating argument to hear on smogon forums where it is well established that "broken doesnt check broken" It makes the issue WORSE because since a mon like Jirachi is seen everywhere, even when players arent even trying to use degenerate strats it just winds up being their mathemematically BEST option. That Jirachi being banned would remove its utility (shorthand for saying the mons it checks will become broken in its absense) should strictly be a non argument for anyone who isnt a hypocrite.
Banning Iron Head on Jirachi is enough Old metagame, plus its unfair to remove Iron Head from Pokemon that dont hax it like Scarf Jirachi and Registeel Well Registeel kinda uses it like Jirachi does when it runs thunder wave but cmon, is it really an issue? Either way removing the option is kinda unfair imo
so funny story yesterday I asked bkc what he thought about jimothy cool getting very frustrated over the machamp suspect the very next day this drops lmao
take a swing at a complex ban and just get rid of dynamic punch, machamp is not an inherantly toxic pokemon and the reason it is hated is because of this move. No other pokemon wants to even use this move so it wont actually limit teambuilding if you ban it. no offense but this is the obvious answer to this problem and if the council cant come to this conclusion i question it's ability to make correct decisions
this!!! it's so simple, but they're literally going about it in the worst way they could. even getting rid of no guard would make more sense than banning the whole poke.
You banned much less offensive Pokemon for less. Froslass was completely removed from anything but Ubers for a 20% evasion boost with weather up. That's no where near as bad as Machamp.
@Rumielle Not really. The Machop line are the only ones who get No Guard in this gen and without No Guard, Dynamic Punch's 50% percent accuracy makes it too unreliable.
@@jasonmoscynski8170 Exactly. Plus if Machamp is forced to use its other ability, it's mid at best due to being slow. Banning Machamp is completely unnecessary and a huge over reaction to not liking the Dynamic Punch spam.
Is there a reason not to consider banning no guard or dynamic punch? For example the mons that learn the ohko moves are not banned but rather the moves right?
I would ban Dynamic Punch since No Guard brings much more value than Dynamic Punch Machamp would have its own nicha s the only Pokemon with 100% accuarate Cross Chop and Stone Edge
Perfectly understandable. I was just wondering if there was a reason not to consider these options so obvious that it found no mentioning in the vid... Since bkc was adressing a few arguments
@@hard2flatter516 smogon does not like complex bans IE bans that exist to nerf a specific pokemon or mechanic in order to preserve said pokemon or mechanic. This goes all the way back to pokemon black and white where in order to preserve permanent weather in OU they decided to ban weather + speed boosting abilities bring on the same team. That decision wound up causing more problems in the future than anticipated. they don't want that to happen again so they no longer allow complex bans. As for why OHKO moves are banned instead of the pokemon is because they are the direct problem. think of it like this, OHKO moves are uncompetitive regardless of which pokemon gets them it doesn't matter if its arceus using them or wurmple by virtue of being in the game they degrade the experience. banning no guard or dynamic punch would only serve to keep machamp in the tier and as mentioned above the higher ups do not care to open that box if possible.
BKC video with editing, this isn't FSG! At least here you don't have to launder your opinions for people whose only experience with competition is watching a Wolfey video once.
If everyone hates it, they hate it, but I don’t see how Machamp is that unreasonable. Gen 4 in general is kinda dumb, it’s so offensive, and I don’t see either Pokémon all that much….ghost types are always a good enough answer, switch in on a predicted Dynamic Punch and voila, you out speed and threaten to burn or OHKO Machamp…..shit, if anything, using Machamp in this busted ass meta game is kinda fun if anything. Gen4 is arguably THE PERFECT place for it, already being so offensively oriented….i can see how the RNG is annoying when dealing with it in the moment, but damn revenge killing a Machamp is not exactly hard….i say people are being big babies, and I’m gonna say there’s proof is the way in which people talk to each other on Showdown…..my goodness the hatefulness beats anything. One single full-para and they’ll bitch over it and call each other some of thee AWFULLEST things lol If Dynamic Punch Machamp was in gen3 then sure, ban it’s ass, Gen3 games generally give you breathing room to make switches and play smarter games, but gen4 IS ALREADY nothing but a damn guessing game a lot of the time…. I hate getting bad RNG as bad as the next guy, but idk, I just don’t see Dynamic Punch as this brain dead move….you can’t switch into it, but damn there’s a TON of shit you can’t switch into in Gen4….i respectfully think everyone is over reacting to something that’s not that big of a deal…if anything, I almost LIKE the sight of a Machamp, I almost always know just exactly what it’s going to do lol….
Is Machamp the problem? Or is DPunch No Guard the problem? Wouldn't a ban of No Guard solve this issue? Guts Machamp is strong but definitely not as infuriating as No Guard Dynamic Punch.
Typically policy heads do not allow for an ability ban that effects only a single pokemon. They would require the ban on the pokemon itself. This is why you may see a snow cloak/sand veil ban but not a no guard ban.
@smogon Ah, I see that makes sense. I see Machamp/Jirachi/Gyarados as the 3 problem Pokémon I hear about the most. Machamp having a 100% confusion inflicting move that can do 70% of your HP too. Jirachi being the RNG fest, not only of its moves effect chances, but it's set variety. And Gyarados being a living nuclear weapon that can often 6-0 after 1 or 2 DDances, especially with Waterfall flinch. Removing Machamp *first* makes the most sense. As removing either of the other two would really imbalance things. I would be sad to see it go, but personally Machamp isn't very healthy for the metagame. I love DPP OU, and I need to see it get the same love from people who tier it. Lead Drifblim all the way baby 🎈
It’s funny because I may run into a Machamp once every few battles but I always run into Jirachi and it always does something incredibly stupid. I’ve at one point lost a scarf mag to jirachi and being locked down para flinched for 11 consecutive turns. Like I understand what you’re communicating but Machamp is a drop in a shallow pool of para flinch that it is so overly centralising. To where I can have a magnet pull mag with hp fire and even if the jirachi does not have fire punch, I still lose because iron head might as well be the same coverage, only takes 11 turns instead of 2. Jirachi is too much.
Thunder wave serves as a way to stop scarfers, setup sweepers and is a form of speed control for many Pokemon Also banning Twave doesnt solve the issues with Machamp and Jirachi
Yeah I feel like thunder wave and having a 1/4 chance of not moving isn’t to bad without 100% accurate dynamic punches and Jirachi as a whole. Because believe me Jirachi only uses thunder wave as an insurance, not a necessity.
I think the moves iron head should be banned from Jirachi and Dynamic punch from Machamp, tada problem solved, its a "complex ban" that couldnt be more simple, neither of the pokemon are inherently obnoxious, its just in conjunction with 2 moves they shouldnt have
It has the ability Arena Trap, which prevents grounded Pokemon from switching out. This can be exploited due to Dugtrio's speed, power, and typing. Trapping abilities are usually banned in gens after Gen 3 because it makes some strategies too powerful.
@@watsonwroteDidnt explain it quite well, Dugtrio itself isnt the reason why Trapping is broken Its not just trapping and eliminating opponents,its the fact that because you trap your opponents, you eliminate key Pokemon and that enables other Pokemon much better than Dugtrio to clean up way more easily
are people going through mass psychogenic illness or something? jirachi being broken is no reason to not ban machamp, get it out of the way and jirachi will have 100% of the attention. if machamp isnt banned you will not have any luck banning jirachi
I agree that this something else being perceived as more broken is not a reason to not ban the thing currently voted on, but I'm not convinced by your second argument. The established tournament players are already not eager to ban Jirachi, and those players clearly outnumber the player qualifying through the ladder due to the very high benchmarks, and Machamp getting banned gives the tier leaders less incentives to run another test because of arguments like "the metagame needs to settle first". I would not be surprised at all if talk about an action on Jirachi gets surpressed just as much as it does now if the suspect test is successful. Machamp not getting banned could have stronger signaling power to actually make a Jirachi suspect happen.
@@FiboSai your scenario is sadly realistic, but if machamp doesnt get banned those tournament players arent going to immediately go "oh ok ill vote for jirachi now" heres how i think of it: not banning machamp is just a gamble that jirachi ban gets support, banning machamp is guaranteed progress. if what you said plays out after machamps gone, that kinda blows. If machamp doesnt get banned and jirachi doesnt get banned, its just a stupid endless cycle of blaming the other one
There is nothing scarier to blind switch into than a Machamp and I personally think Machamp ruined the lead metagame, severely limiting options. But I do feel like a paralysis clause would solve everything wrong with Gen 4 at the moment.
Can’t ruin what stealth rocks made terrible and I stand by that opinion stealth rocks is the worst aspect of it because half the time it’s get rocks up willy-nilly lose a Mon because going 5-6 as long as you get rocks is aok
I think its too soon for parslysis clause, after all, paralysis brings a lot of positive things to any given metagame, we should look at other things first
I can't believe my pure slow cinema style was compromised by ed*ting.
this vid needs more movie rants, 0/10 do better @ smogon yt editors
The day of the rope is coming for stall players like you.
How am I supposed to learn about pokemon without a 15 minute tangent to start the video? Also, no bathroom break, that is so inconsiderate to the viewer. I will not be renting out my local cinema to screen this for my friends.
@@BKCplaysPokemon Smogon is here to help elevate your pokemon AND video editing game!
you are a funny person
he has four arms, its just not fair
6:15 A bold attempt to manifest an Iron Head ban into reality
For real I was like Iron Head is banned??????????? That’d be the day..
No bathroom breaks :(
Unfortunately, does not begin to describe Jimothy Cool's series..
On one hand Machamp basically adds nothing but torture but so does the entire tier so honestly this is just how it works
what about whats on Machamps other two hands?
Jirachi iron head is very much not banned? Also to anyone that says you can stall Iron Heads on jirachi, iron head has 24 pp, and has no immunities. Dynamic punch only has 8pp.
"Just stall out the PP" should never be considered a valid argument. Unless the move has very low PP (8, realistically) and needs to be used many times to have an impact, that's just an unreasonable thing to do. Stalling our Aromatherapies in a Stall mirror is doable, but it would be ridiculous to tell people they can just run Kingambit out of Sucker Punches in Gen 9.
“Kafquaesque made-up nothing”
Something i feel people always ignore that frustrates me, that the pokemon brings additional utility to the table will make its broken aspects WORSE.
Like, "People use Jirachi for all sorts of things besides iron head flinch, people only use Machamp for Dynamic Punch" is such a frustrating argument to hear on smogon forums where it is well established that "broken doesnt check broken"
It makes the issue WORSE because since a mon like Jirachi is seen everywhere, even when players arent even trying to use degenerate strats it just winds up being their mathemematically BEST option.
That Jirachi being banned would remove its utility (shorthand for saying the mons it checks will become broken in its absense) should strictly be a non argument for anyone who isnt a hypocrite.
Banning Iron Head on Jirachi is enough
Old metagame, plus its unfair to remove Iron Head from Pokemon that dont hax it like Scarf Jirachi and Registeel
Well Registeel kinda uses it like Jirachi does when it runs thunder wave but cmon, is it really an issue?
Either way removing the option is kinda unfair imo
so funny story
yesterday I asked bkc what he thought about jimothy cool getting very frustrated over the machamp suspect
the very next day this drops lmao
take a swing at a complex ban and just get rid of dynamic punch, machamp is not an inherantly toxic pokemon and the reason it is hated is because of this move. No other pokemon wants to even use this move so it wont actually limit teambuilding if you ban it. no offense but this is the obvious answer to this problem and if the council cant come to this conclusion i question it's ability to make correct decisions
They are too burocratic for that
this!!! it's so simple, but they're literally going about it in the worst way they could. even getting rid of no guard would make more sense than banning the whole poke.
You banned much less offensive Pokemon for less. Froslass was completely removed from anything but Ubers for a 20% evasion boost with weather up. That's no where near as bad as Machamp.
That was like 15 years ago lol perspectives can change
@@newjumpcityjosh9333 It was 2023. It's on Froslass's gen 4 page.
6:12 jirachi iron head is very much not banned methinks?
He's manifesting it
@@BPDemons great username btw
Machamp on the suspect ladder... But jirachi was used way more to make it to the voting counsel.
All those arguments for banning dynamicpunch are correct what i dont understand is why are they trying to ban machamp instead of dynamicpunch.
Policies, burocracy & laziness
Why not just ban No Guard or Dynamic Punch? Why ban a whole ass Pokemon?
because that would ruin a whole bunch of pokemon that don't deserve it.
@Rumielle Not really. The Machop line are the only ones who get No Guard in this gen and without No Guard, Dynamic Punch's 50% percent accuracy makes it too unreliable.
@@jasonmoscynski8170 Exactly. Plus if Machamp is forced to use its other ability, it's mid at best due to being slow. Banning Machamp is completely unnecessary and a huge over reaction to not liking the Dynamic Punch spam.
@@Rumiellewhat bunch? Tell me a Pokemon that regularly uses Dynamic Punch in OU thats not Machamp
Machamp is the only No Guard mon in Gen4
24:10 BKD punished by God with coughing fits for the bad Machamp joke
Blazing Kicking Darmanitan?
No. Just Dynamic Punch. It's that easy
So glad to know that smogon has an official channel. Subbing rn!
Welcome aboard!
I’m still of the idea that dynamic punch is the problem.
The fact that it's Machamp and not rachi being suspected is the biggest joke lol
Did you even watch the video?
wtf is this video. I just saw a latias get thunder waved and then next turn get an attack in through Iron Head and para.
Nice fake video
Is there a reason not to consider banning no guard or dynamic punch? For example the mons that learn the ohko moves are not banned but rather the moves right?
I would ban Dynamic Punch since No Guard brings much more value than Dynamic Punch
Machamp would have its own nicha s the only Pokemon with 100% accuarate Cross Chop and Stone Edge
Perfectly understandable. I was just wondering if there was a reason not to consider these options so obvious that it found no mentioning in the vid... Since bkc was adressing a few arguments
@@hard2flatter516 smogon does not like complex bans IE bans that exist to nerf a specific pokemon or mechanic in order to preserve said pokemon or mechanic. This goes all the way back to pokemon black and white where in order to preserve permanent weather in OU they decided to ban weather + speed boosting abilities bring on the same team. That decision wound up causing more problems in the future than anticipated. they don't want that to happen again so they no longer allow complex bans.
As for why OHKO moves are banned instead of the pokemon is because they are the direct problem. think of it like this, OHKO moves are uncompetitive regardless of which pokemon gets them it doesn't matter if its arceus using them or wurmple by virtue of being in the game they degrade the experience.
banning no guard or dynamic punch would only serve to keep machamp in the tier and as mentioned above the higher ups do not care to open that box if possible.
Loving the content on this channel great way to communicate farther than the forums
Smogon decisions have been whack recently imo
My main takeaway is that Goro is on the DPP OU council /s
BKC video with editing, this isn't FSG! At least here you don't have to launder your opinions for people whose only experience with competition is watching a Wolfey video once.
If everyone hates it, they hate it, but I don’t see how Machamp is that unreasonable. Gen 4 in general is kinda dumb, it’s so offensive, and I don’t see either Pokémon all that much….ghost types are always a good enough answer, switch in on a predicted Dynamic Punch and voila, you out speed and threaten to burn or OHKO Machamp…..shit, if anything, using Machamp in this busted ass meta game is kinda fun if anything. Gen4 is arguably THE PERFECT place for it, already being so offensively oriented….i can see how the RNG is annoying when dealing with it in the moment, but damn revenge killing a Machamp is not exactly hard….i say people are being big babies, and I’m gonna say there’s proof is the way in which people talk to each other on Showdown…..my goodness the hatefulness beats anything. One single full-para and they’ll bitch over it and call each other some of thee AWFULLEST things lol
If Dynamic Punch Machamp was in gen3 then sure, ban it’s ass, Gen3 games generally give you breathing room to make switches and play smarter games, but gen4 IS ALREADY nothing but a damn guessing game a lot of the time….
I hate getting bad RNG as bad as the next guy, but idk, I just don’t see Dynamic Punch as this brain dead move….you can’t switch into it, but damn there’s a TON of shit you can’t switch into in Gen4….i respectfully think everyone is over reacting to something that’s not that big of a deal…if anything, I almost LIKE the sight of a Machamp, I almost always know just exactly what it’s going to do lol….
what is the background song name? Zame has like a 1000 songs on his channel.
Buspect Kest Cachamp
Yes, and take Jirachi with it, out the door.
Is Machamp the problem?
Or is DPunch No Guard the problem?
Wouldn't a ban of No Guard solve this issue? Guts Machamp is strong but definitely not as infuriating as No Guard Dynamic Punch.
Typically policy heads do not allow for an ability ban that effects only a single pokemon.
They would require the ban on the pokemon itself.
This is why you may see a snow cloak/sand veil ban but not a no guard ban.
@smogon Ah, I see that makes sense.
I see Machamp/Jirachi/Gyarados as the 3 problem Pokémon I hear about the most.
Machamp having a 100% confusion inflicting move that can do 70% of your HP too.
Jirachi being the RNG fest, not only of its moves effect chances, but it's set variety.
And Gyarados being a living nuclear weapon that can often 6-0 after 1 or 2 DDances, especially with Waterfall flinch.
Removing Machamp *first* makes the most sense. As removing either of the other two would really imbalance things.
I would be sad to see it go, but personally Machamp isn't very healthy for the metagame. I love DPP OU, and I need to see it get the same love from people who tier it.
Lead Drifblim all the way baby 🎈
I though Sand Veil Gliscor in DPP was especific banned due to Sandslash / Cacturne
@@smogon I mean even in the video you basically admitted you banned Dugtrio by banning Arena trap?
@@tsui1024 that affects diglett too
if machamp gets banned then machoke will be used. there's no winning.
It’s funny because I may run into a Machamp once every few battles but I always run into Jirachi and it always does something incredibly stupid. I’ve at one point lost a scarf mag to jirachi and being locked down para flinched for 11 consecutive turns. Like I understand what you’re communicating but Machamp is a drop in a shallow pool of para flinch that it is so overly centralising. To where I can have a magnet pull mag with hp fire and even if the jirachi does not have fire punch, I still lose because iron head might as well be the same coverage, only takes 11 turns instead of 2. Jirachi is too much.
Why not ban thunder wave thats also a move that good to click anytime its available
Thunder wave serves as a way to stop scarfers, setup sweepers and is a form of speed control for many Pokemon
Also banning Twave doesnt solve the issues with Machamp and Jirachi
Yeah I feel like thunder wave and having a 1/4 chance of not moving isn’t to bad without 100% accurate dynamic punches and Jirachi as a whole. Because believe me Jirachi only uses thunder wave as an insurance, not a necessity.
Very nice presentation
Thanks for watching!
Noooo where did all the smogcasts go?
John smogon
Bring back Dugtrio
I think the moves iron head should be banned from Jirachi and Dynamic punch from Machamp, tada problem solved, its a "complex ban" that couldnt be more simple, neither of the pokemon are inherently obnoxious, its just in conjunction with 2 moves they shouldnt have
wait why dugtrio is banned in gen 4 ou? im new to showdown so i dont know
It has the ability Arena Trap, which prevents grounded Pokemon from switching out. This can be exploited due to Dugtrio's speed, power, and typing. Trapping abilities are usually banned in gens after Gen 3 because it makes some strategies too powerful.
Dugtrio isnt banned, Arena Trap is banned
@@watsonwroteDidnt explain it quite well, Dugtrio itself isnt the reason why Trapping is broken
Its not just trapping and eliminating opponents,its the fact that because you trap your opponents, you eliminate key Pokemon and that enables other Pokemon much better than Dugtrio to clean up way more easily
You literally just ban No Guard and be done with it. Same with Serene Grace.
are people going through mass psychogenic illness or something? jirachi being broken is no reason to not ban machamp, get it out of the way and jirachi will have 100% of the attention. if machamp isnt banned you will not have any luck banning jirachi
I agree that this something else being perceived as more broken is not a reason to not ban the thing currently voted on, but I'm not convinced by your second argument. The established tournament players are already not eager to ban Jirachi, and those players clearly outnumber the player qualifying through the ladder due to the very high benchmarks, and Machamp getting banned gives the tier leaders less incentives to run another test because of arguments like "the metagame needs to settle first". I would not be surprised at all if talk about an action on Jirachi gets surpressed just as much as it does now if the suspect test is successful. Machamp not getting banned could have stronger signaling power to actually make a Jirachi suspect happen.
@@FiboSai your scenario is sadly realistic, but if machamp doesnt get banned those tournament players arent going to immediately go "oh ok ill vote for jirachi now"
heres how i think of it: not banning machamp is just a gamble that jirachi ban gets support, banning machamp is guaranteed progress. if what you said plays out after machamps gone, that kinda blows. If machamp doesnt get banned and jirachi doesnt get banned, its just a stupid endless cycle of blaming the other one
Both it and jirachi should go
There is nothing scarier to blind switch into than a Machamp and I personally think Machamp ruined the lead metagame, severely limiting options.
But I do feel like a paralysis clause would solve everything wrong with Gen 4 at the moment.
Can’t ruin what stealth rocks made terrible and I stand by that opinion stealth rocks is the worst aspect of it because half the time it’s get rocks up willy-nilly lose a Mon because going 5-6 as long as you get rocks is aok
I think its too soon for parslysis clause, after all, paralysis brings a lot of positive things to any given metagame, we should look at other things first
@@Keegan006Absolutely not true, you dont have to run rocks on your lead.
Nothing of what you said is competitively minded
Yes
no
Bring back Doug
No
Clefable needs to be banned,
Too soon for that
@@lordinfernape4753 Clefable has been unhealthy for over a decade.
W vid !
Yurrrrrrr
Can anyone even take Smogon seriously anymore?
We usually do but it's just you trashy tourists who want to be taken seriously while riding Verlis' dong.
@@tehrik0020 i dislike this choice and hate verlis' guts, so. it's weird that you assume everyone who thinks smogon is a joke watches the n-zi furry