About Da Vinci, some people said that to Da Vinci himself the Mona Lisa isn't that important of a painting and it's just a portrait for a customer. But since it's belong to him and arguably his most well known work of art, we collectively believed that it's very special. It's stated that a heroic spirit will be influence by the histories, myth and legend tie to them (condition may vary), which result in a Da Vinci who believed that Mona Lisa is the most beautiful woman like we do, regardless of whether it's true fact or not.
Funny enough the Mona Lisa was a work that Da Vinci procrastinated on for as long as possible since it was so boring for him to do. Eventually he was forced to mostly finish it but even then he didn’t want to do it. Heck the reason why it’s so valuable is literally only because it was stolen along with a dozen other paints by the Nazi’s if they didn’t do that it would remain as just another plain painting.
some servants really fit into this. Chevalier D'eon , Nagao Kagetora both are great example of this. (btw, in ACreed Unity u do meet Chevalier Deon but he appears with 3d model of a female NPC and tells u not to worry about it lmao) pretty sure in fate lore the servants are maasively influenced by thier public image and fame. So yeah no wonder da vinci is the way it is (Funny thing, i saw FGO's version of Da vinci without any context without who that is but i knew about fate's desire to genderbend and since she looked like an anime Version of Monalisa i was like "omg is that da vinci" and she/he was)Same goes for C. Hendersen, he iis lil boy in fgo woth the voice of a grandpa since his stories are linked with children tales. Even T. Edison looking like a lion king humanoid has good lore reason. Honestly most servants have solid lore tfoor hoow they look or exist in the Age/Gender/Formm that theu are. ppretty cool honestly. but yeah first time i reallized the genderbent FFing miyamoto musashi i was like ffs. The only really lazy one is Francis Drake. even nero can work lol
@@Shade_Knightlythat could be argued with, like for example, a sketch of the Mona Lisa's smile in one of his studies of the muscles of the mouth, if he truly didn't think of the Mona Lisa in high regard, then why go all the trouble to learn about what makes the lips move for a painting he didn't care for?
@@alexandriospendragon That could be argued he used this painting as basically to workshop things for future paints he actually cared about. Like going "Man I don't want to keep redrawing this great work whenever I mess up on something I don't like. Well guess I can use this thing instead not like I really care about how well it turns out."
@@durrangodsgrief6503 What are you on about. Precisely the metaphorical link is what gives her the connection to the book of revelations. Otherwise they beasts would've been nameless creatrures without any connection to myths whatsoever. And in a world where myths are real, why the heck not make the "metaphor" turn into real powers?
Making Nero female isn’t ridiculous and can tie into her Historical Lore. Historical Nero was incredibly passionate about Theatre, where it’s well documented he would crossdress and play the female roles in the plays he acted in.
I personally really like Van Gogh. The interesting part is that it's technically not a Genderbend, but a suicidal man's memory and power put into a Goddess who refuses to die. So the body might be of Clytie's, but 90% of the memory and power were all belong to Van Gogh. The poor bloke was having an identity crisis when they were becoming Heroic Spirit. But in the end, they name themselves as "Clytie Van Gogh", so yayyy :DD
I actually also like their story of OG van Gogh that he's crazy because he can see and his paintings were gateways for outer gods. The outer gods were using him to enter earth he knew that that's why he killed himself.
Tbf wasn't it because.... (potential spoilers below) The actual Van Gogh was insanely resistant to the outsiders influence that tried to get him to do something, constantly trying to end his own existence rather than to bow down to them or answer their demands? And the outsiders tried to push him to the point he utterly lost his mind, but still inherently refused to abide by their demands? So instead, they tried to get around him constantly ending his existenxe by putting his memories and essence into a godly being that was just as determined to _not_ end as Van Gogh was to end his existence?
I love that Shuten changed himself into a woman for the sole reason to mess with Kintoki, also that Shuten could also be both because portrayed as female a lot, but mainly the first
Yeah but that’s so much of a nonsense idea. We have historically powerful queens and empresses that weren’t falsely documented so making so many of these women in beat with the excuse that they were falsely documented, just seems lazy. Also boiling down all of these inaccuracies just to sexism makes this feel so much more fake.
@@yumin_pluto558 I wouldn't necessarily label it as "nonsense" - far stranger things have happened in history, after all - moreso than I would label it unlikely. History tends to document things from the victor's point of view, and tends to more completely paint the picture of that side.
Funny enough, Nero and Artoria resembling each other could be seen as a nod to theories about the historical Arthur possibly being Roman. Also there is that story about Nero marrying a man, with Nero himself being the bride.
When I played Fate Extra I just assumed that Historical Nero was the weak-chinned neckbeard we know and when becoming a Servant he used his Imperial Privilege skill to become what we see. He's already used it to make her a Saber, the Romans believed beauty (and blonde hair) to be divine, and he already played the role of a bridal Venus in life, so it wouldn't be out of character for him.
I really liked Oda Nobunaga’s genderbend in Fate. Though it wasn’t really highlighted, it’s still pretty interesting for me. It somewhat added more depth into her character. Her backstory as a bold and unconventional leader clashes with the rigid expectations of her time, where being a woman could have potentially doomed her ambitions. The Oda clan’s struggles with succession would also have been worse, as her position as heir would likely have been dismissed outright (Or she would have been married off to another clan)
Nobunaga is one of that strange case where being male or female won't affect her characterization much. It's all just Nobu being... Nobbu. Granted, GudaGuda Nobu (they one we got) isn't exactly the same version as the PHH one. Best way to explain Nobu is with their genre savviness.
Funnily enough, this does get brought up in the history around her character with her being labeled as a fool because she's a woman acting out. Moreover, Nobunaga was originally passed over for succession for Nobutaksu because she's a woman until her father changed his mind after realizing she's more capable. While the Oda Succession was said to have been caused because the Elders refused to have a woman as their daimyo and revolted, which just led to Nobunaga crushing them even harder
I liked the Van Gogh one. It's both a genderbend and not a genderbend at the same time. The idea of a being that is a amalgamation of a nymph body, an artist memories and an eldritch horror powers really interesting.
I absolutely love Kagetora for the reasons you covered. I didnt know anything about it until she came to the game, and then saw people talking about it, and it's brilliant. I also love Artoria and Musashi for being similarly well explained. My favorite that you didnt cover is Nobunaga, because I love how she can be a little comedy gremlin waifu and yet still live up to her Demon King moniker, at least from what I've seen of Redline.
I also love Nobunaga for that as they used the fact that the Oda clan had alot of revolutions and almost civil wars around Owari as most clan members didn't wanted Nobunaga to rule wich could be interpreted as Nobunaga being originally a female
@@jedimike7622 yeah but another reason could be the Light Novel Oda Nobuna no yabou wich had an anime but never a second season yet i still wonder wich came out first. Fate Nobbu design or Oda Nobuna no yabou novel
One that isn’t talked about much is Pollux. The reason was genderbent was because the people who voice the Dioscuri are twins and one of them is a female, so the developers simply just followed that.
That's the doylian (real world perspective) explanation, but would be nice to know about the Watsonian one (the reason in universe). For example, Artoria's Watsonian explanation is that a woman wouldn't be able to rule so she hid her gender. Artoria's Doylian explanation is that they wanted the MC to be a guy so they shifted Arthur into a woman to keep the romance option.
The thing is, it was actually 4 kids. 2 boys and 2 girls. One of each child of Zeus and the other 2 mortals. The girls were Helen of Troy and Clytemnestra. I don't know if there is a way to connect FGO Pollux to her sisters (mainly Helen of Troy being the child of Zeus) or if they could rewrite it as 3 girls and a single boy.
@@yubalesquer8495 maybe the 2 mortal child fuse into Casto, and him being an avenger is because of his sister's influence. And similarly, Pollux now has the appearance of Helen.
I really like Jack The Ripper’s story of essentially being a wrath born of botched abortions taking the form of being a little girl and then exercised by a mage, as the real Jack The Ripper was never caught, so no one knows who they were or why the killings stopped. This narratives makes complete sense of that, and fits within the Nasuverse. I wish her ascensions were less revealing though. Another character I want to highlight is Fran, you don’t have to change much to the story to make it work. Plus, she’s too cute for me not to love.
She's one of the possible candidates for the real identity of Jack the Ripper, but she's not THE 100% confirmed Jack the Ripper. It's not exactly a genderbend either if one can't know the real identity of the culprit in the first place.
Gonna mention a few things; Nero Claudius in FGO is a woman because it is well documented that he was a party goer and in one such instance dressed up in bridal dress and married (pretended to?) a nearby participant just to get a rise out of the people watching. You thought the Bridal dress nero was just fan-service but it actually has historical significance. Considering the last Empress of Nero was also a eunuch that he dressed up as his recently 'deceased' wife it likely wasn't the strangest thing he did. In Fate/Extra we also find out that Nero is not just Nero but also a representative for the whore of Babylon likely due to his eccentricities and extremely debaucherous life (it is said that prostitutes lined the streets where the real life Nero lived). I think Nero in Fate wearing skimpy clothing actually is relevant to her character. I imagine that Fate/Extra was playing with the idea of Nero being a man whore in life and thus attached the whore of babylon idea to the character because of this. I think the Francis Drake situation might be referencing an event that occurred in 1581 in which Queen Elizabeth boarded the Golden Hind in order to knight Francis Drake. In Fate/Extra I believe the implication was that during this visit the two swapped places or she sent back a double and traveled with Drake for a time.
All the crossdressing and marrying a dude allegations are hugely debated and are a frequent way to discredit a political opponent/ leader in roman politics and more than a few emperors had these same accusations, interestingly enough other emperors like Caligula or Helagabalus are believed to have actually done some of these but Nero has mostly been redeemed and found not guilty of doing the worst things he's been accused of (including but not limited to, playing the Lyre during the great fire in Rome, when he wasn't even there)
@@cernunnos8344 Considering all of the primary sources we have for Nero through Suetonius, Tacitus & Cassius Dio were written well after he lived and were all quite hostile towards him you may very well be correct that the crossdressing and marrying of Sporus (actual name unknown) were used to discredit him but considering this is mentioned by them perhaps we can't outright dismiss it either.
On Drake, yeah I totally remember hearing this. It was especially noticed because Drake never makes any remarks toward her scar and it would make total sense for a queen to no longer be able to be a queen with a large scar
I assumed it would be somewhat similar to iori's reaction to it, first bewildered then just "eh its just like master's usual shenanigans to show as a woman"
Know how Musashi likes boys. I think the male one liked girls. If we get the male version, he would probably a pretty a pretty boy. When they both meet I assume they would want to fight each other but would also be like "Nice".
Missed one of the best in the form of Hokusai and Bakin, the way Hokusai made his art actually involved many hands so even when his daughter took over she also worked under his name so she gets to be summoned as Hokusai as well, Bakin made hakkenden when he was old, so his daughter in law was actually the one writing it while he dictated, since servants have to be summoned on their prime and Bakin's prime as a writer could be argued was while writing Hakkenden, is his daughter in law who gets summoned instead because she is actually young during that time and since she wrote it she gets the right to be summoned as Bakin as well, it's genius.
@@guardiansoulblade2673 yeah i am big type moon fan, but when i know a FACT , i don't play with words, The obvious answer is something that mr YOKO TARO also said : I LIKE GIRLS (It is not that nasu can not write proper male characters , he just soon realized that people will actually buy Erogames back in 2000, so he knew what he have to do, otherwise people wouldn't buy Tsukihime, he even said that himself in interview that this is reason why he published his stories in ERO games)
One od my favorites examples is also Kagetora as it is actually historically accurate and i once found a guy in twitter who wrote an article about it too and explained it logically with things like how Echigo had just too much civil wars and complains about Kagetora even for that time or how she was allowed on the temple where only woman were allowed to go in or how his body was never found and was moved alot from place to place like it's clan didn't wanted anyone to find out the truth. Also i believe that one of the reasons Sugitani senjubo and Nobunaga are also females could be linked to the novel "Oda Nobuna No Yabou" where in it Nobunaga is also a woman alongside most retainers, Daymio and important figures so since Fate does takes some inspiration from other franchises to make the characters it could be possible they used it as a reference. There's also an anime with the same name tho it never got a season 2
@@Niccogamer01 Nobunaga is also a female in Sengoku Collection. There are a lot of Japanese medias that gender bends unsurprisingly . Fate happens to be the most well known.
@@JaimeNM137 it was a japanese light novel basically the before a manga is made like a book but in japan it's a novel, never knew if it ever ended but i loved the anime and my question still stands of wich was first. Nobunaga from Fate/Type redline being made a female or the novel Nobunaga being a female. Wich one came out first?
One of my favorites is Jaques de Molay, there's a good reason for genderbent Molay to exist, and to be fair, she is not really the real Molay, no, he exists (just not in mobile fgo), she is in a similar situation as Jeanne Alter, a pretty much completelly made up heoric spirit, just by an outer god instead of a creep.
@@icyhugs not really, the original jaques de molay died but this lovecraft eldricht horror possessed his body changing the gender too, yes, it have almost every single memory but in essence, is not the same person / entity
I would say my favorite is Ushiwakamaru. No real reason for the genderbend but she is my favorite tomboy who has saved my ass in the early game of FGO before I had more powerful single target unites.
@@affixrey419 Her profile in the game says she/her and doesn't seem to suggest that she's ever been anything but a woman. But if that's what someone wants to have as their headcanon I won't yuck someone else's yum.
@@affixrey419 nah, no way, he would get humiliated for that, and executed. If he somehow managed to trans himself in the first place. in fgo logic, he could be(because of magic) but there's no way to prove that.
Personally, Jack the Ripper ripper from I believe fate apocrypha has good logic because for a long time we had no clue who jack was, which leaves a lot of room for creative storytelling about him
I like the theory given about Dobrynyan that it's actually not the bogatyr himself, but his wife being summoned. That does not explain the existence of catgirls during the era of Rus', but I think it's a fun and unique explanation nonetheless
Honestly she doesn't even work as the wife either, mainly because she was explicitly mentioned as a giant in his myth. They could've taken a way better approach in this tbh.
I think it has to do with the degree of syncretism since the original saint graph she's using had connection to sun gods and you know who's a sun goddess with connection with foxes and inari? Amaterasu who's one of avatars was Tamamo
But then you realise what the Nasu verse has two Francis Drakes One is Queen Elizabeth the other one is the Real Francis Drake so No Genderbend just the Name was cataloutge for two Charakters
Also I loved in one of the Remants you have the option to Flirt with Da Vinci and she just goes “Did you just flirt with your Superior Officer? Good, keep it up.”
I think the genderbends ties back to Servant Summoning. That is to say some servants fully utilize the flawed summonings, Anderson and Don Quixote believing their peaks were at their physically weakest. Da Vinci believing the Monalisa was important to him or Salonne being the villain. But you get some flimsey afterthought excuses like Altera and Raikou and some outright meta jokes like Pollux, Bunyon, and Nero and as bad as some of them are giving any watsonian explanation to them would take away the last shred of value to some of their designs
Im not really a hardcore lore person but i believe fgo's altera was no where close to the real life history so lorewise, she is already portrayed incorrectly so much that her gender is trivial. Right?
@vuanhuc3582 yes this goes for a handful of other servants as well, instead of using the flawed summonings they instead change their history to fit their OCs
@@vuanhuc3582 I heard the graphic novel initially had them as male, but someone said they needed to make the protagonist a male and therefore servant being a female. You know, because the novel was supposed to be an eroge. Nasu probably wanted to keep the King Arthur aspect going and made them a female instead. Then he just started filling out the character and fleshed her out. He did a pretty good job at essentially rewriting the traditional legend. Kind like needing to know the rules before breaking them.
I like the character, but the reason to gender flip them is flimsy: Ushwakamaru, Jing Ke, Okita Souji (just being effeminate handsome isn't enough, or the Prince of LanLing would would also be female), Nero, Gareth (unlike Artoria not much thought given to the implications), Pollux (though the relationship with her brother and thus his protective streak towards the stronger sister is something), Xu Fu. Does it even count as gender flip?: Ganesha/Jinkao Carigiri (just a vessel and Ganesha just grants Jinako some power), Ibaraki Douji (if that counts as genderflip at all, since some versions of the tale have her being the female mate of Shuten Douji; but even if it counts as genderflip the connection to Watanabe no Tsuna and his almost girlfriend is well executed and makes only sense in this constellation), Kama (it is just vessel, but one that makes sense to pick; we even have seen male versions), Van Gogh (Clythie, 'nuff said), Kiichi Hougen (shapechanging Tengu, only appears female now), Mysterious Ranmaru X (just the strongest Ranmaru of Planet Ranmaru, not historical male Ranmaru; their gender is not even constant it seems), Dobrynya Nikitich (it probably is just his wife Nastasia taking his place, even more forcefully than Artemis did to Orion), Manannán mac Lir (it is just vessel and the god is male, but has not problem of utilizing the female vessel for more femineity than the original owner), Super Bunyan (it is just trap by trickster god in a delicate balance of non-awareness ...), Sancho (in Don Quixote) (the majority of the side characters that are not Sancheo Panza accumulated in her are female: Rosinante the horse, Dulcinea the fictional princess, Antonia his niece, Teresa Sancho's wife, Sanchica Sancho's daughter, Altisidora and the Duchess who prank Don Quixote by playing to his delusions, the innkeeper's daighter who pranks Don Quixote abut also loves the chivalric romances he reads), Sen no Rikyu (the body is mostly Koma-hime and they act together), Huyan Zhuo (it is the Empousa part that requires them to be female), Tenochtitlan (the city has no gender in traditional sense, the (male) gods are just associated as patron deities), Kashin Koji (the body is just puppet and they had male bodies at other points in the past; their personality is eroded and they react according to the identity they are reminding the person they talk to of; they don't even know the gender they started with), Yamato Takeru (gender ambiguous, not necessarily flipped), Azumi no Isora (Hibiki & Chikagi) (technically it is a female and a normally female appearing being acting as shrine maidens or later a vessel for a male god). At least there is a lore reason: Francis Drake, Shuten Douji (Shapechanging abilities), Xuanzang Sanzang (it is almost a tradition to have the Tripitaka being portrait by or as a woman), Minamoto no Raikou (Ushi-Gozen being her other side, and that entity being often female), Paul Bunyan (Udon dough born, not quite "the" Paul Bunyan), Katou Danzou (identity secret as ninja + being a doll to begin with), Altera (a big can of worms, given the Sefar business), Ibuki Douji (natural result of doing to Shuten Douji; relevant only for Servant personality [gyaru antics]), Jacques de Molay (Foreigner vessels to Mythos deities are always female; "seduction" angle, we have seen the male version). At least they took some care to thing about the implications: Artoria, Oda Nobunaga, Frankenstein's Monster, Shuten Douji (Shapechanging abilities; I like how it changed the dynamic with Kintoki), Sima Yi (natural result from Zhuge Liang being in Waver, relationship of Servants and of vessels). I think the reason for the gender flip is really smart: Taira no Kakakyou (follows naturally from Usiwakamaru's gender, being an inhabitable "grudge" makes having various bodies makes sense), Leonardo DaVinci, Mordred (natural consequence of Artoria being female and the change to special homunculus), Quetzalcoatl (it is just a vessel, and even without Servant status, for the Malla derived Mesoamerican gods it is just a vessel ...), Jaguar Man (Taiga + it being a class of being to Olmecs, the aspect of the Jaguar being the Nahual of Tezcatlipoca, so they have to fit her ...), Miyamoto Musashi (other world + they did think about the implications for her life story ...), Nezha (not only are there versions before FGO where Nezha's new body is female, they also gave her that trait of being proud of the body they were given, as shown with the way they handle the pirate who makes advances to her in Salem ...), Uesugi Kenshin/Nagao Kagetora (all already mentioned in the video), Vritra (shapechanging dragon; parallels to Tiamat due to Chaoskampf motive etc.), Kyokutei Bakin (unlike Hokusai where the father-daughter teams has mostly separate bodies, here the body the author who got blind in his old age is always that of the daughter in-law who acted as his writing hand a secretary in these times), Sugitani Zenjūbou (they were male and did only ask for a new face, not a new body ... then they woke up as female after the procedure was done by Kashin Koji), Saika Magoichi (that name is a title, we know of at least 3 Saika Ikki leaders assuming it).
Nero is genderbent because in the Book of Revelations the Whore of Babylon specifically referred to Rome under Nero's rule. And the Beast's seven heads and ten crowns being the seven hills of Rome with its ten emperors. Nasu just made the whole thing a lot more literal.
@@cheesepuffsthings I would rather argue because they wanted to gender flip Nero to make a misdirection they had the chance to conflate the Whore of Babylon with the Beast of 666. The later is most commonly interpreted as Nero (666 which numerologically is usually נרון קסר, NronQsr, a Hebrew way of writing Neron Kaisar (the Greek version of writing Emperor Nero). NRVNQSR is just transliterating the ו waw with a v instead of a w, which is perfectly valid as w is the transliteration in English for historical reasons, but the pronunciation is closer to v in Modern Hebrew. But in this case the waw is just a ḥolam male, it is meant as stand in for the diacritic Niqqud sign that would denote the o in Ner_o_n .], but the former was in the interpretations not the emperor, but the former is more often seen as an embodiment of Rome as power, not a specific emperor. A female Nero made it possible to have her being both, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns/crowns and the whore riding on it. Which also gave us the whole "Rider Nero" angle and allusions to her avoiding that class, because of the Beast connection.
As someone who aspires to make his own story I love the concept of taking inspiration from something but completely turning it on its head and making it your own fate has always been one of my favorite anime’s for that an anime that made women look and feel strong without it being too much
But it is too much, its taking a man's merit and giving them to a female character instead of finding proper ones, its very core is a mistake in that aspect
I'm not a writer but here is some advice I heard that could help. If you are doing something like Fate you need to "know the rules before breaking them". Think I heard that from the 2010 Nier game actually. Basically know how something works, so that you can recreate it differently and have it still work. Nasu basically was able to recreate the King Arthur Legend by knowing what about it actually worked. Probably wanted to tell that story initially as a male, until someone reminded Nasu they were making an eroge and then turned them female instead. Then he fleshed out Artoria's story as he went on.
Okita reasoning would be great: if She wasnt introduced duringn a gudaguda event . AN event that even in-universe they mention Being Just stupidly nosensical
actually Koha ace. Okita had been around since the gag manga series with the tsukihime characters being the servant of Kohaku. most of the Gudaguda cast come from Koha ace.
@@Zankyo137 there is no wall they removed it. just look at the beginning section of carnival phantasm Hibichika special. They made an animated section for Koha ace judge it for yourself.
@@MokoES Even before that. They were just gag characters commenting on type moon news in a comical manner within that magazine (Koha Ace is a magazine, the gag manga story was an story made after her debut). Her only reason for existing back then was to say "Hey, we got a new Heroic Spirit" only for it to be a Saberface. She's the punchline of a very old joke.
The real reason okita and nobu is genderbent cause they're made to resemble kohaku (okita) and akiha (nobu) in gag manga. Red hair nobu is a reference to akiha. Then they give them another reason after they're implemented in fgo.
I just love it how during the first stages of the Fate/ Stay Night visual novel development, it all started with a nonchalant remark that went along the lines of, "I dunno, why don't you make Saber a girl then?"
I quite like the series interpretation of tang sanzang. Tripitaka is referred to as a man in the original journey to the west of course, but in most stories he's put into the position of "damsel in distress" and isn't often attributed as having many, if any traditionally masculine qualities like strength or sexual prowess. Though he is noted as having quite a handsome face. Many adaptions of journey to the west cast him as somewhat effeminate to help reinforce the image of someone who is not particularly physically strong. Some adaptations straight up cast a woman to play the part of the monk as well, so sanzang appearing as a woman in fgo wouldn't even be the first genderbend of the character. Her using the powers of her desciples also strikes me personally as maybe a call to the character's reputation of being the damsel in distress from the book; getting kidnapped by demons so many times sounds pretty annoying. And though sanzang is a monk at heart, given all the times sun wukong came to the rescue, i don't find it hard to think perhaps some of his techniques were observed and learned so she could have some of her own defense against the forces willing to eat her. Same for the other disciples. Part of me is a little disappointed that the designer either wasn't willing or wasn't able to make a bald/shaved hairstyle work with her appearance, but I do appreciate that she's a brunette.
Another thing that's cool about Musashi is how at multiple points you can see her use her cheerfulness to make an enemy underestimate her. I can recall a few examples of her pretending to make a mistake, then suddenly attacking while the enemy has their guard down.
@@EMIYA53 Not in her Summer version anymore. She's starting to feel less vulnerable to being her original self again as she realises she's surrounded by genuine and loving people.
Nero, I think it can be justified because she is related to the Whore of Babylon and that is demonstrated with her Beast version. Francis Drake is more difficult to find an explanation but I think it must be related to the version of Drake that we saw in Agartha that was a fusion with the character of Princess Dahut, I really didn't know that story that she was actually Queen Isabel taking her role, where did she come from?
It seems people doesn't know about okita and nobu real reason to be genderbent. The real reason okita and nobu is genderbent cause they're made to resemble kohaku (okita) and akiha (nobu) in gag manga. Red hair nobu is a reference to akiha. Then after that they give them another reason when they're implemented in fgo.
Before shirou and arthoria. The main character is supposed to be ayaka and Arthur. When kinoko nasu is writing this idea. He got no confidence, he thought that his story was overdone and too cliche. He told takeuchi (his best friend and main artist for fate stay night/typemon). Then takeuchi said "just flipped their gender". Nasu thought this was horrible idea and thought takeuchi was just joking. But takeuchi was serious. So nasu try it and he thought it's actually brilliant. When you thought of female king Arthur at that time. Who would come to mind? No one right😂. That's it. Sorry for my bad English
Da Vinci could also be based on that old theory that the Mona Lisa was an adjusted self portrait of Da Vinci, that he used himself for the base and altered details.
The number 1 reason. Because Waifu. LMAO As a veteran fgo player, I think the first genderbend that put me off was Da Vinci. Reason being, Da Vinci is well known to be a man as well as he has a real portrait if I remember correctly and I feel like twisting the history like that is a big stretch even for Type-Moon standards. I believe the reason why he appeared in the body of Mona Lisa is because he sought beauty or something? Not really sure since it's been a while, and doesn't really bother me anymore. As you play FGO you just stop questioning the reasons lol. Xu Fu is a loli that simps for Yu Meirin? sure that may as well happen. In truth, Xu Fu is a dude. The most genderbend that I didn't like comes from Apocrypha. Jack the ripper somehow is a loli, I think It was explained why but I stopped bothering. There's also Astolfo which isn't a genderbend but a trap. Then you really really really just stop questioning lmao. I love Mordred though, she's cool. The best reason for me though, is that parallel universes. Arthur is a woman and there really exist a male Arthur. That broadens the horizon of how much they can twist hystorical figures because if Male Arthur exist means every heroic spirit has a version that reflects our real world history. Parallel universes in type-moon.
Great video, and I do love the topic cause the gender flip can be some of the worst and best liberties the Fate franchise takes. As someone who did a lot of Latin and Roman culture studies when they were younger I would maybe make an update to your Nero part. Nero is one of the most easily justifiable gender benders. There are so many accounts of his gender "antics" it's hard to know fact from fiction. But even just looking up his listed spouses on Wikipedia will give you a good idea where they got the idea from. And also justify Nero Bride as a concept... I guess people don't know he was literally a bride at one point. Seems like it should be a well known thing. Very progressive.
One that’s pretty cool that’s recent is Francescois Prelati in fate/strange fake. The actual historical figure is recorded as a servant and is male, but the actual person has managed to survive through mage craft and switched into a girl body.
I think drake's genderbend is not that bad, the idea that the real francis drake is still a man and that fate's drake is Elizabeth the first and she is treated as a captain because of the respect the sailors had for her is quite fine in my book
Da Vinci definitely has my favourite logic behind Artoria. Good discussion points all around.👍👍👍 Also the Anime footage in your video looks horrendous.
"You'll find most historic accounts of famous people veered to depict them as 30-something-year-old white men." - Saber of UBW Abridged by Project Mouthwash
i recall in a character analysis is that among the Shinsengumi, Okita was among, if not the only member, who did not get a photograph portrait. So while written as a man, we have no photo to actually compare their face allowing artist some liberty.
The design of Neros "revealing" dress can be somewhat explained. In many stories about the historical Nero it is stated, that he showed and lived his sexuality as he pleased. So giving a genderbend version of him a look through skirt etc can be a way to incorporate this characteristic of Nero himself. But this does not explain the genderbend in itself ... A similiar thing can be said about Astolfo. The fact that this character in fate looks so female can be explained. The actors of Astolfo in the theater plays were females most of the time. So I can see why in fate astolfo looked so feminine.
Now that is interesting. I always thought Astolfo looks the way he does because he was depicted as a very handsome man, and the fact that his lore mentions he's literally lost his healthy mind most of the time
My favourite is still the case of Enkidu, where instead of a "half beast-man" they make him an actual beast that took the first human form they first met, aka Shamhat. That way, it made sense why not only are they so beautiful, officially they don't have a gender cause they can chenge form as will.
i also feel that Da vinci's acepting he/her change is kind of logical, i mean, she/he is someone who marked a turning point in human history, someone who helped it change, so he/she should be able to embrace that change really quick, that and heroic spirits are influenced by what people belive, there could be a chance that she was influenced a bit by the Mona lisa, or he got amazed by how famous it became that became some sort of "Ideal Beauty" for Da Vinci
I actually just read the top comment that talked about Da Vinci. And all the reply's just make certain it wasn't already said. I remember on some TV show (History Chanel Maby) that the picture of the Mona Lisa was actually a self portrait of Da Vinci gender bent. It was just a possible theory. But it would make what happened in Fate really more interesting.
If i remember correctly, nobu also fall in a similiar category as musashi, like there is a male nobunaga, we know that, and we also know that he is canoniclly more powerfull than female nobu, a fact she isnt to thrilled about. Besides she is supposed to be a bit of a gag character to and yeah.
I did not understood at first about this, but my older brother told me its the nasu verse, thats why when Arthur Pendragon came along and portrayed as from another world it made me understood thats the IRL Arthur Pendragon.
the funnier interpretation of a lot of post-death genderbends is just implying historical figures were just trans in the Fate universe in an age where HRT wasn't a thing
Personally, i do not believe Okita's original intent was for that kind of research considering her origin as a joke character in Koha-Ace. I do think it is interesting to look at it now though.
Let's not forget about the guy who died wanting revenge but wasn't strong enough to come back as a ghost on his own, so he merged with a female ghost who wanted revenge on the same person. ...Half of you are probably thinking I mean Taira-no-Kagekiyo but I was thinking of Sen-no-Rikyu. Everything I wrote could describe either one of them though. While I was typing it out I realized that they've basically done the same idea twice, just with very different character-designs and reveal arcs.
Davinci seems like a guy who, if he could turn into a woman with magic, probably would at least for a while, for the experience to grant him inspiration for art/inventions.
You talked about the why, but you really should have mentioned the how. That Artoria was a woman because she wasn't born human, but was created as a homunculus by mixing Uther Pendragon's blood with that of an actual dragon. Also, just like how real-life sheep cloning at the time the VN was made could only clone female sheep (outside of Fate/Apocrypha), all homunculus created were created female. This is also why Mordred was a woman as well. Before the 20th century, there was only one male homunculus (Mephistopheles) created and his creator (Johan Faust) was a genius said to be 100 years ahead of his time.
One of my absolute biggest pet peves in anime is genderbending. However, like all other things in a good story, it is a story element, and as with every type of story element, it can be done correctly. I like the instances where it is done correctly. This is one, a weaker one if you ask me, but one none-the-less. Tanya is another really good one. I forget his name but there's another really good one in Log Horizon, they don't get a lot of screentime though. The best one I have seen is probably from a really old anime .hack//sign
Nero is female just because they wanted the promotional material of Extra to bait and switch people into thinking she was literally "Red Saber", I like her character though and it ends up working in the context of Nero's crossdressing and the Whore of Babylon theories, something they embraced completely with her Nero Draco form.
Unlimited Waifu Works. But really yes there is a backstory in Fate Stay Night but the bigger reason is it was a original a Visual Novel where you get to lewd the main heroines which Saber is one. Based on how Fate Series works with how Heroic Spirits need to be Historical Figures if they want to have more Waifus then they have to get "creative".
The reason for Sir Francis Drake's kind of work is that Queen Elizabeth the First supported Piratery because she was a pirate herself. As a way to deal with her daily stress as a queen, she'd go on the ship as Sir Francis Drake to explore. The Idea comes from the fact that Sir Francis Drake has never been formally seen in the same room as the Queen, even his knighthood was given to him on his ship away from public eye. Also, Da Vinci's reasoning was not just that he saw the Mona Lisa as the perfect embodiment of beauty; it was that there were no historical records of a lady even existing. Hence, the belief that the Mona Lisa is Da Vinci himself but gender-bent. As for Nero, his Roman, and what do we know Romans? They aren't all straight, and their idea of beauty fits the same as the one Nero has in fate. Hell a simple google search of was emperor Nero very beautiful and you'd see traits depicted by fate, now I must admit her, chest a bit much, but the idea was Ideal there.
It was funny learning about Genderbenting Da Vinci the first time i saw her, because years before that i was having a History of art class with a teacher, and she started talking about how some people actually thought thst Mona Lisa was Da Vinci's ideal self. How he wanted to look like... Basically that he might have had ideas of wanting to be a gorgeous woman. And then, many years later, Fate does this. It was quite the Whiplash flashback i had to that class lol
About Da Vinci, some people said that to Da Vinci himself the Mona Lisa isn't that important of a painting and it's just a portrait for a customer. But since it's belong to him and arguably his most well known work of art, we collectively believed that it's very special. It's stated that a heroic spirit will be influence by the histories, myth and legend tie to them (condition may vary), which result in a Da Vinci who believed that Mona Lisa is the most beautiful woman like we do, regardless of whether it's true fact or not.
Also, I don't think most people even know what Da Vinci looked like.
Funny enough the Mona Lisa was a work that Da Vinci procrastinated on for as long as possible since it was so boring for him to do. Eventually he was forced to mostly finish it but even then he didn’t want to do it. Heck the reason why it’s so valuable is literally only because it was stolen along with a dozen other paints by the Nazi’s if they didn’t do that it would remain as just another plain painting.
some servants really fit into this. Chevalier D'eon , Nagao Kagetora both are great example of this.
(btw, in ACreed Unity u do meet Chevalier Deon but he appears with 3d model of a female NPC and tells u not to worry about it lmao)
pretty sure in fate lore the servants are maasively influenced by thier public image and fame. So yeah no wonder da vinci is the way it is (Funny thing, i saw FGO's version of Da vinci without any context without who that is but i knew about fate's desire to genderbend and since she looked like an anime Version of Monalisa i was like "omg is that da vinci" and she/he was)Same goes for C. Hendersen, he iis lil boy in fgo woth the voice of a grandpa since his stories are linked with children tales. Even T. Edison looking like a lion king humanoid has good lore reason. Honestly most servants have solid lore tfoor hoow they look or exist in the Age/Gender/Formm that theu are. ppretty cool honestly.
but yeah first time i reallized the genderbent FFing miyamoto musashi i was like ffs.
The only really lazy one is Francis Drake. even nero can work lol
@@Shade_Knightlythat could be argued with, like for example, a sketch of the Mona Lisa's smile in one of his studies of the muscles of the mouth, if he truly didn't think of the Mona Lisa in high regard, then why go all the trouble to learn about what makes the lips move for a painting he didn't care for?
@@alexandriospendragon That could be argued he used this painting as basically to workshop things for future paints he actually cared about. Like going "Man I don't want to keep redrawing this great work whenever I mess up on something I don't like. Well guess I can use this thing instead not like I really care about how well it turns out."
Nero as a Servant is because of her ties to the Whore of Babylon. Thats in EXTRA. Now... now its Nasu History in FGO.
Which is bad given revelation is purely metaphorical than literal and rome given in accepted Christ is not the beast
@@durrangodsgrief6503 What are you on about.
Precisely the metaphorical link is what gives her the connection to the book of revelations. Otherwise they beasts would've been nameless creatrures without any connection to myths whatsoever.
And in a world where myths are real, why the heck not make the "metaphor" turn into real powers?
@@durrangodsgrief6503you have no idea how the Throne of Heroes works
Making Nero female isn’t ridiculous and can tie into her Historical Lore.
Historical Nero was incredibly passionate about Theatre, where it’s well documented he would crossdress and play the female roles in the plays he acted in.
@@durrangodsgrief6503 every myth is just a bunch of metaphor and figurative statement, there's no way exist a spear that have a sure hit ability
I personally really like Van Gogh. The interesting part is that it's technically not a Genderbend, but a suicidal man's memory and power put into a Goddess who refuses to die. So the body might be of Clytie's, but 90% of the memory and power were all belong to Van Gogh. The poor bloke was having an identity crisis when they were becoming Heroic Spirit. But in the end, they name themselves as "Clytie Van Gogh", so yayyy :DD
I actually also like their story of OG van Gogh that he's crazy because he can see and his paintings were gateways for outer gods. The outer gods were using him to enter earth he knew that that's why he killed himself.
Tbf wasn't it because.... (potential spoilers below)
The actual Van Gogh was insanely resistant to the outsiders influence that tried to get him to do something, constantly trying to end his own existence rather than to bow down to them or answer their demands?
And the outsiders tried to push him to the point he utterly lost his mind, but still inherently refused to abide by their demands?
So instead, they tried to get around him constantly ending his existenxe by putting his memories and essence into a godly being that was just as determined to _not_ end as Van Gogh was to end his existence?
Yess
I love that Shuten changed himself into a woman for the sole reason to mess with Kintoki, also that Shuten could also be both because portrayed as female a lot, but mainly the first
After samurai remnant, there's also the theory that her form is based on the younger self of Raikou, also to piss her off.
We also have that "Too ashamed to be beaten by a woman king/emperor/hero that they documented them as male" thing
Yeah but that’s so much of a nonsense idea. We have historically powerful queens and empresses that weren’t falsely documented so making so many of these women in beat with the excuse that they were falsely documented, just seems lazy. Also boiling down all of these inaccuracies just to sexism makes this feel so much more fake.
@@yumin_pluto558 I wouldn't necessarily label it as "nonsense" - far stranger things have happened in history, after all - moreso than I would label it unlikely. History tends to document things from the victor's point of view, and tends to more completely paint the picture of that side.
you mean queen/empress
@zeehero7280 King Arthur and Emperor Nero?
@ArceusShaymin I don't know that I agree fully, but overall yeah. The Romans were the losers and they are also the biggest source on "barbarians".
Funny enough, Nero and Artoria resembling each other could be seen as a nod to theories about the historical Arthur possibly being Roman.
Also there is that story about Nero marrying a man, with Nero himself being the bride.
When I played Fate Extra I just assumed that Historical Nero was the weak-chinned neckbeard we know and when becoming a Servant he used his Imperial Privilege skill to become what we see. He's already used it to make her a Saber, the Romans believed beauty (and blonde hair) to be divine, and he already played the role of a bridal Venus in life, so it wouldn't be out of character for him.
@@pseudonym6387
That makes the whole romance with Hakuno a bit creepy though, don't you think?
Yeah, but I would’ve preferred if she wasn’t just a re colour of Saber
I really liked Oda Nobunaga’s genderbend in Fate. Though it wasn’t really highlighted, it’s still pretty interesting for me. It somewhat added more depth into her character. Her backstory as a bold and unconventional leader clashes with the rigid expectations of her time, where being a woman could have potentially doomed her ambitions. The Oda clan’s struggles with succession would also have been worse, as her position as heir would likely have been dismissed outright (Or she would have been married off to another clan)
Nobunaga is one of that strange case where being male or female won't affect her characterization much. It's all just Nobu being... Nobbu.
Granted, GudaGuda Nobu (they one we got) isn't exactly the same version as the PHH one. Best way to explain Nobu is with their genre savviness.
R 0
Funnily enough, this does get brought up in the history around her character with her being labeled as a fool because she's a woman acting out. Moreover, Nobunaga was originally passed over for succession for Nobutaksu because she's a woman until her father changed his mind after realizing she's more capable. While the Oda Succession was said to have been caused because the Elders refused to have a woman as their daimyo and revolted, which just led to Nobunaga crushing them even harder
I liked the Van Gogh one. It's both a genderbend and not a genderbend at the same time. The idea of a being that is a amalgamation of a nymph body, an artist memories and an eldritch horror powers really interesting.
I absolutely love Kagetora for the reasons you covered. I didnt know anything about it until she came to the game, and then saw people talking about it, and it's brilliant. I also love Artoria and Musashi for being similarly well explained. My favorite that you didnt cover is Nobunaga, because I love how she can be a little comedy gremlin waifu and yet still live up to her Demon King moniker, at least from what I've seen of Redline.
I also love Nobunaga for that as they used the fact that the Oda clan had alot of revolutions and almost civil wars around Owari as most clan members didn't wanted Nobunaga to rule wich could be interpreted as Nobunaga being originally a female
@Niccogamer01 oh that's cool. I didn't know about that.
@@jedimike7622 yeah but another reason could be the Light Novel Oda Nobuna no yabou wich had an anime but never a second season yet i still wonder wich came out first.
Fate Nobbu design or Oda Nobuna no yabou novel
I came here to see if he covered that
the "Real deal Nobunaga"(male) appearing is still one of the funniest gag in Fate
One that isn’t talked about much is Pollux. The reason was genderbent was because the people who voice the Dioscuri are twins and one of them is a female, so the developers simply just followed that.
That's the doylian (real world perspective) explanation, but would be nice to know about the Watsonian one (the reason in universe).
For example, Artoria's Watsonian explanation is that a woman wouldn't be able to rule so she hid her gender. Artoria's Doylian explanation is that they wanted the MC to be a guy so they shifted Arthur into a woman to keep the romance option.
The thing is, it was actually 4 kids. 2 boys and 2 girls. One of each child of Zeus and the other 2 mortals. The girls were Helen of Troy and Clytemnestra. I don't know if there is a way to connect FGO Pollux to her sisters (mainly Helen of Troy being the child of Zeus) or if they could rewrite it as 3 girls and a single boy.
@saxor96 the in universe reason is that its just how it is and you are thinking too hard about it.
@@jonathangoodwin5609 That is hardly ever the reason in Fate. The 'don't think about it' of this franchise is 'so convoluted is better to avoid it'.
@@yubalesquer8495 maybe the 2 mortal child fuse into Casto, and him being an avenger is because of his sister's influence. And similarly, Pollux now has the appearance of Helen.
I'll call this *"the Pendragon theorem"*
I really like Jack The Ripper’s story of essentially being a wrath born of botched abortions taking the form of being a little girl and then exercised by a mage, as the real Jack The Ripper was never caught, so no one knows who they were or why the killings stopped. This narratives makes complete sense of that, and fits within the Nasuverse. I wish her ascensions were less revealing though.
Another character I want to highlight is Fran, you don’t have to change much to the story to make it work. Plus, she’s too cute for me not to love.
Then there False Jack, they are the collection of rumor about Jack the Ripper taken form
I wish her ascensions were more revealing* there fixed it for you
She's one of the possible candidates for the real identity of Jack the Ripper, but she's not THE 100% confirmed Jack the Ripper. It's not exactly a genderbend either if one can't know the real identity of the culprit in the first place.
@@jheicobguzman6132Her design is pretty badass actually
@@jheicobguzman6132 this guy right here officer
Gonna mention a few things;
Nero Claudius in FGO is a woman because it is well documented that he was a party goer and in one such instance dressed up in bridal dress and married (pretended to?) a nearby participant just to get a rise out of the people watching. You thought the Bridal dress nero was just fan-service but it actually has historical significance. Considering the last Empress of Nero was also a eunuch that he dressed up as his recently 'deceased' wife it likely wasn't the strangest thing he did. In Fate/Extra we also find out that Nero is not just Nero but also a representative for the whore of Babylon likely due to his eccentricities and extremely debaucherous life (it is said that prostitutes lined the streets where the real life Nero lived). I think Nero in Fate wearing skimpy clothing actually is relevant to her character. I imagine that Fate/Extra was playing with the idea of Nero being a man whore in life and thus attached the whore of babylon idea to the character because of this.
I think the Francis Drake situation might be referencing an event that occurred in 1581 in which Queen Elizabeth boarded the Golden Hind in order to knight Francis Drake. In Fate/Extra I believe the implication was that during this visit the two swapped places or she sent back a double and traveled with Drake for a time.
All the crossdressing and marrying a dude allegations are hugely debated and are a frequent way to discredit a political opponent/ leader in roman politics and more than a few emperors had these same accusations, interestingly enough other emperors like Caligula or Helagabalus are believed to have actually done some of these but Nero has mostly been redeemed and found not guilty of doing the worst things he's been accused of (including but not limited to, playing the Lyre during the great fire in Rome, when he wasn't even there)
Yeah I thought Drake was supposed to be the Queen pretending to be Drake
@@cernunnos8344 Considering all of the primary sources we have for Nero through Suetonius, Tacitus & Cassius Dio were written well after he lived and were all quite hostile towards him you may very well be correct that the crossdressing and marrying of Sporus (actual name unknown) were used to discredit him but considering this is mentioned by them perhaps we can't outright dismiss it either.
On Drake, yeah I totally remember hearing this. It was especially noticed because Drake never makes any remarks toward her scar and it would make total sense for a queen to no longer be able to be a queen with a large scar
@@cernunnos8344doesn't matter to fate setting, highly debated false myth still works in their power settings
If the historical male Musashi ever gets added to FGO, I wonder what his reaction will be to his female alternate-universe counterpart.
Sadly [Data Lost] is Data Lost.
Didn't they have a 1 on 1 in a shimousa Chapter??
He won't meet her sadly, she's [Data Lost] ATM and we still have that wound to be healed
I assumed it would be somewhat similar to iori's reaction to it, first bewildered then just "eh its just like master's usual shenanigans to show as a woman"
Know how Musashi likes boys. I think the male one liked girls. If we get the male version, he would probably a pretty a pretty boy. When they both meet I assume they would want to fight each other but would also be like "Nice".
Missed one of the best in the form of Hokusai and Bakin, the way Hokusai made his art actually involved many hands so even when his daughter took over she also worked under his name so she gets to be summoned as Hokusai as well, Bakin made hakkenden when he was old, so his daughter in law was actually the one writing it while he dictated, since servants have to be summoned on their prime and Bakin's prime as a writer could be argued was while writing Hakkenden, is his daughter in law who gets summoned instead because she is actually young during that time and since she wrote it she gets the right to be summoned as Bakin as well, it's genius.
Plus Hokusai and Oui both get summoned, it's just not immediately obvious that's who the little octopus guy is.
Dude still got summoned in the end too but was turned into an octopus after pissing off an outer god by saying their art was dogshit XD
Van Gogh is also a neat genderbent
Adorable eldritch horror 😊
My baby girl-boy uwu
Sanzou is a character frequently genderbent, so her being a woman isn't that unusual
I Know i meant to defend Nasu's writing
but Answer IS : Because Waifu Works( ask fgo staffs)
And prototype has the typical male King Arthur but they were told the idea wouldn't sell, and that's the reason for the gender-flip in Stay Night.
@@guardiansoulblade2673 yeah i am big type moon fan, but when i know a FACT , i don't play with words,
The obvious answer is something that mr YOKO TARO also said : I LIKE GIRLS
(It is not that nasu can not write proper male characters , he just soon realized that people will actually buy Erogames back in 2000, so he knew what he have to do, otherwise people wouldn't buy Tsukihime, he even said that himself in interview that this is reason why he published his stories in ERO games)
Still waiting for either Persephone or Hades appears like Zeus and Demeter
@@baziworld the funny thing is he was pretty bad at writing eroge. Like the dialog is legendary cringe that people made a ton of memes off of it.
@@guardiansoulblade2673 Funnly, they ended up genderbent prototype merlin to sell fgo arcade.
One od my favorites examples is also Kagetora as it is actually historically accurate and i once found a guy in twitter who wrote an article about it too and explained it logically with things like how Echigo had just too much civil wars and complains about Kagetora even for that time or how she was allowed on the temple where only woman were allowed to go in or how his body was never found and was moved alot from place to place like it's clan didn't wanted anyone to find out the truth.
Also i believe that one of the reasons Sugitani senjubo and Nobunaga are also females could be linked to the novel "Oda Nobuna No Yabou" where in it Nobunaga is also a woman alongside most retainers, Daymio and important figures so since Fate does takes some inspiration from other franchises to make the characters it could be possible they used it as a reference.
There's also an anime with the same name tho it never got a season 2
@@Niccogamer01 Nobunaga is also a female in Sengoku Collection. There are a lot of Japanese medias that gender bends unsurprisingly . Fate happens to be the most well known.
wait how come there's a novel that portrays Nobunaga as a girl?
@@JaimeNM137 it was a japanese light novel basically the before a manga is made like a book but in japan it's a novel, never knew if it ever ended but i loved the anime and my question still stands of wich was first.
Nobunaga from Fate/Type redline being made a female or the novel Nobunaga being a female. Wich one came out first?
One of my favorites is Jaques de Molay, there's a good reason for genderbent Molay to exist, and to be fair, she is not really the real Molay, no, he exists (just not in mobile fgo), she is in a similar situation as Jeanne Alter, a pretty much completelly made up heoric spirit, just by an outer god instead of a creep.
That's the worst case of all.
@@icyhugs not really, the original jaques de molay died but this lovecraft eldricht horror possessed his body changing the gender too, yes, it have almost every single memory but in essence, is not the same person / entity
I would say my favorite is Ushiwakamaru. No real reason for the genderbend but she is my favorite tomboy who has saved my ass in the early game of FGO before I had more powerful single target unites.
I heard he's trans. Is it true😅
@@affixrey419 Her profile in the game says she/her and doesn't seem to suggest that she's ever been anything but a woman. But if that's what someone wants to have as their headcanon I won't yuck someone else's yum.
@@affixrey419 Nope
@@affixrey419In theater, Yoshitsune always played by female. That's the reason. Quanzang also played by female in Chinese theater
@@affixrey419 nah, no way, he would get humiliated for that, and executed. If he somehow managed to trans himself in the first place.
in fgo logic, he could be(because of magic) but there's no way to prove that.
Personally, Jack the Ripper ripper from I believe fate apocrypha has good logic because for a long time we had no clue who jack was, which leaves a lot of room for creative storytelling about him
I like the theory given about Dobrynyan that it's actually not the bogatyr himself, but his wife being summoned. That does not explain the existence of catgirls during the era of Rus', but I think it's a fun and unique explanation nonetheless
Dobry----nyan
Nyan
@@FlynnMegaTensei Yep, they literally made her a catgirl because of a pun.
Honestly she doesn't even work as the wife either, mainly because she was explicitly mentioned as a giant in his myth. They could've taken a way better approach in this tbh.
Thats.... That's not a theory. At the end of the story she shows up in, its almost blatantly stated. Like, its not even subtle.
I think it has to do with the degree of syncretism since the original saint graph she's using had connection to sun gods and you know who's a sun goddess with connection with foxes and inari? Amaterasu who's one of avatars was Tamamo
The Drake angle was an actual rumor from the time; that Elizabeth impersonated him for a voyage so as to see the world.
But then you realise what the Nasu verse has two Francis Drakes
One is Queen Elizabeth the other one is the Real Francis Drake so No Genderbend just the Name was cataloutge for two Charakters
Also I loved in one of the Remants you have the option to Flirt with Da Vinci and she just goes “Did you just flirt with your Superior Officer? Good, keep it up.”
I think the genderbends ties back to Servant Summoning. That is to say some servants fully utilize the flawed summonings, Anderson and Don Quixote believing their peaks were at their physically weakest. Da Vinci believing the Monalisa was important to him or Salonne being the villain. But you get some flimsey afterthought excuses like Altera and Raikou and some outright meta jokes like Pollux, Bunyon, and Nero and as bad as some of them are giving any watsonian explanation to them would take away the last shred of value to some of their designs
Im not really a hardcore lore person but i believe fgo's altera was no where close to the real life history so lorewise, she is already portrayed incorrectly so much that her gender is trivial. Right?
@vuanhuc3582 yes this goes for a handful of other servants as well, instead of using the flawed summonings they instead change their history to fit their OCs
@@vuanhuc3582 I heard the graphic novel initially had them as male, but someone said they needed to make the protagonist a male and therefore servant being a female. You know, because the novel was supposed to be an eroge. Nasu probably wanted to keep the King Arthur aspect going and made them a female instead. Then he just started filling out the character and fleshed her out. He did a pretty good job at essentially rewriting the traditional legend. Kind like needing to know the rules before breaking them.
Turn boring/ugly looking historical figures into hot waifus. XD
You are correct except original nobunaga used to be such a dilf 😭
The waifus are infinitely less cool
They ruined Attila the Hun@@somersaultinggiraffe1901
You are everything that is wrong with this fandom
I like the character, but the reason to gender flip them is flimsy:
Ushwakamaru, Jing Ke, Okita Souji (just being effeminate handsome isn't enough, or the Prince of LanLing would would also be female), Nero, Gareth (unlike Artoria not much thought given to the implications), Pollux (though the relationship with her brother and thus his protective streak towards the stronger sister is something), Xu Fu.
Does it even count as gender flip?:
Ganesha/Jinkao Carigiri (just a vessel and Ganesha just grants Jinako some power), Ibaraki Douji (if that counts as genderflip at all, since some versions of the tale have her being the female mate of Shuten Douji; but even if it counts as genderflip the connection to Watanabe no Tsuna and his almost girlfriend is well executed and makes only sense in this constellation), Kama (it is just vessel, but one that makes sense to pick; we even have seen male versions), Van Gogh (Clythie, 'nuff said), Kiichi Hougen (shapechanging Tengu, only appears female now), Mysterious Ranmaru X (just the strongest Ranmaru of Planet Ranmaru, not historical male Ranmaru; their gender is not even constant it seems), Dobrynya Nikitich (it probably is just his wife Nastasia taking his place, even more forcefully than Artemis did to Orion), Manannán mac Lir (it is just vessel and the god is male, but has not problem of utilizing the female vessel for more femineity than the original owner), Super Bunyan (it is just trap by trickster god in a delicate balance of non-awareness ...), Sancho (in Don Quixote) (the majority of the side characters that are not Sancheo Panza accumulated in her are female: Rosinante the horse, Dulcinea the fictional princess, Antonia his niece, Teresa Sancho's wife, Sanchica Sancho's daughter, Altisidora and the Duchess who prank Don Quixote by playing to his delusions, the innkeeper's daighter who pranks Don Quixote abut also loves the chivalric romances he reads), Sen no Rikyu (the body is mostly Koma-hime and they act together), Huyan Zhuo (it is the Empousa part that requires them to be female), Tenochtitlan (the city has no gender in traditional sense, the (male) gods are just associated as patron deities), Kashin Koji (the body is just puppet and they had male bodies at other points in the past; their personality is eroded and they react according to the identity they are reminding the person they talk to of; they don't even know the gender they started with), Yamato Takeru (gender ambiguous, not necessarily flipped), Azumi no Isora (Hibiki & Chikagi) (technically it is a female and a normally female appearing being acting as shrine maidens or later a vessel for a male god).
At least there is a lore reason: Francis Drake, Shuten Douji (Shapechanging abilities), Xuanzang Sanzang (it is almost a tradition to have the Tripitaka being portrait by or as a woman), Minamoto no Raikou (Ushi-Gozen being her other side, and that entity being often female), Paul Bunyan (Udon dough born, not quite "the" Paul Bunyan), Katou Danzou (identity secret as ninja + being a doll to begin with), Altera (a big can of worms, given the Sefar business), Ibuki Douji (natural result of doing to Shuten Douji; relevant only for Servant personality [gyaru antics]), Jacques de Molay (Foreigner vessels to Mythos deities are always female; "seduction" angle, we have seen the male version).
At least they took some care to thing about the implications:
Artoria, Oda Nobunaga, Frankenstein's Monster, Shuten Douji (Shapechanging abilities; I like how it changed the dynamic with Kintoki), Sima Yi (natural result from Zhuge Liang being in Waver, relationship of Servants and of vessels).
I think the reason for the gender flip is really smart:
Taira no Kakakyou (follows naturally from Usiwakamaru's gender, being an inhabitable "grudge" makes having various bodies makes sense), Leonardo DaVinci, Mordred (natural consequence of Artoria being female and the change to special homunculus), Quetzalcoatl (it is just a vessel, and even without Servant status, for the Malla derived Mesoamerican gods it is just a vessel ...), Jaguar Man (Taiga + it being a class of being to Olmecs, the aspect of the Jaguar being the Nahual of Tezcatlipoca, so they have to fit her ...), Miyamoto Musashi (other world + they did think about the implications for her life story ...), Nezha (not only are there versions before FGO where Nezha's new body is female, they also gave her that trait of being proud of the body they were given, as shown with the way they handle the pirate who makes advances to her in Salem ...), Uesugi Kenshin/Nagao Kagetora (all already mentioned in the video), Vritra (shapechanging dragon; parallels to Tiamat due to Chaoskampf motive etc.), Kyokutei Bakin (unlike Hokusai where the father-daughter teams has mostly separate bodies, here the body the author who got blind in his old age is always that of the daughter in-law who acted as his writing hand a secretary in these times), Sugitani Zenjūbou (they were male and did only ask for a new face, not a new body ... then they woke up as female after the procedure was done by Kashin Koji), Saika Magoichi (that name is a title, we know of at least 3 Saika Ikki leaders assuming it).
Nero is genderbent because in the Book of Revelations the Whore of Babylon specifically referred to Rome under Nero's rule. And the Beast's seven heads and ten crowns being the seven hills of Rome with its ten emperors. Nasu just made the whole thing a lot more literal.
@@cheesepuffsthings I would rather argue because they wanted to gender flip Nero to make a misdirection they had the chance to conflate the Whore of Babylon with the Beast of 666. The later is most commonly interpreted as Nero (666 which numerologically is usually נרון קסר, NronQsr, a Hebrew way of writing Neron Kaisar (the Greek version of writing Emperor Nero). NRVNQSR is just transliterating the ו waw with a v instead of a w, which is perfectly valid as w is the transliteration in English for historical reasons, but the pronunciation is closer to v in Modern Hebrew. But in this case the waw is just a ḥolam male, it is meant as stand in for the diacritic Niqqud sign that would denote the o in Ner_o_n .], but the former was in the interpretations not the emperor, but the former is more often seen as an embodiment of Rome as power, not a specific emperor. A female Nero made it possible to have her being both, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns/crowns and the whore riding on it. Which also gave us the whole "Rider Nero" angle and allusions to her avoiding that class, because of the Beast connection.
@@jkosch Huh, now it is *I* who is learning something today.
Ushiwakamaru and Quanzang always played by female in asia theater that the reason
@@derbyblade9572 I knew that about Xuanzang. Didn't know it was also a tradition for Ushiwakamaru.
As someone who aspires to make his own story I love the concept of taking inspiration from something but completely turning it on its head and making it your own fate has always been one of my favorite anime’s for that an anime that made women look and feel strong without it being too much
But it is too much, its taking a man's merit and giving them to a female character instead of finding proper ones, its very core is a mistake in that aspect
I'm not a writer but here is some advice I heard that could help. If you are doing something like Fate you need to "know the rules before breaking them". Think I heard that from the 2010 Nier game actually. Basically know how something works, so that you can recreate it differently and have it still work. Nasu basically was able to recreate the King Arthur Legend by knowing what about it actually worked. Probably wanted to tell that story initially as a male, until someone reminded Nasu they were making an eroge and then turned them female instead. Then he fleshed out Artoria's story as he went on.
Okita reasoning would be great: if She wasnt introduced duringn a gudaguda event .
AN event that even in-universe they mention Being Just stupidly nosensical
actually Koha ace. Okita had been around since the gag manga series with the tsukihime characters being the servant of Kohaku. most of the Gudaguda cast come from Koha ace.
@@MokoES aaaaand how much 4th wall breaking there is in the Koha Ace? or Looneys toons shennanigans?
@@Zankyo137 there is no wall they removed it. just look at the beginning section of carnival phantasm Hibichika special. They made an animated section for Koha ace judge it for yourself.
@@MokoES Even before that. They were just gag characters commenting on type moon news in a comical manner within that magazine (Koha Ace is a magazine, the gag manga story was an story made after her debut). Her only reason for existing back then was to say "Hey, we got a new Heroic Spirit" only for it to be a Saberface.
She's the punchline of a very old joke.
The real reason okita and nobu is genderbent cause they're made to resemble kohaku (okita) and akiha (nobu) in gag manga. Red hair nobu is a reference to akiha. Then they give them another reason after they're implemented in fgo.
I just love it how during the first stages of the Fate/ Stay Night visual novel development, it all started with a nonchalant remark that went along the lines of, "I dunno, why don't you make Saber a girl then?"
Rikyu's reasoning is also pretty neat. Nice vid!
Surprised you didn’t bring up Mother Harlot/Whore of Babylon in regards to Nero
I quite like the series interpretation of tang sanzang.
Tripitaka is referred to as a man in the original journey to the west of course, but in most stories he's put into the position of "damsel in distress" and isn't often attributed as having many, if any traditionally masculine qualities like strength or sexual prowess. Though he is noted as having quite a handsome face.
Many adaptions of journey to the west cast him as somewhat effeminate to help reinforce the image of someone who is not particularly physically strong. Some adaptations straight up cast a woman to play the part of the monk as well, so sanzang appearing as a woman in fgo wouldn't even be the first genderbend of the character.
Her using the powers of her desciples also strikes me personally as maybe a call to the character's reputation of being the damsel in distress from the book; getting kidnapped by demons so many times sounds pretty annoying. And though sanzang is a monk at heart, given all the times sun wukong came to the rescue, i don't find it hard to think perhaps some of his techniques were observed and learned so she could have some of her own defense against the forces willing to eat her.
Same for the other disciples.
Part of me is a little disappointed that the designer either wasn't willing or wasn't able to make a bald/shaved hairstyle work with her appearance, but I do appreciate that she's a brunette.
West: "you're just sexist for not liking a genderbended character"
Me: "emperor nero, thou shalt I serve?"
Da Vinci's is just a power move, honestly. Mad respect for that lad.
Queen Elizabeth 1 swapping with Drake is an actual historical myth where she uses Drake's identity to participate pirate acts
Caenis has a very good reason for the way she is, although it's a psuedo-genderbend more than anything.
Honestly I still yearn for what if it was Proto saber instead what would the dynamic between him and Shirou be
The gex scene would be 🔥
Joke aside most likely be bros like Iskandar and Waver.
pretty sure it would be war in the kitchen, coz if i remember correctly, Proto-Arthur is really good at cooking
@nelvisea8453 if that's the case it's going to be a fight for who's the better cook
that war would be Easy win for shirou
@@nelvisea8453 You just made me imagine a cooking show with EMIYA, Shirou, and Proto-Arthur with all the Artorias being the judges.
Another thing that's cool about Musashi is how at multiple points you can see her use her cheerfulness to make an enemy underestimate her. I can recall a few examples of her pretending to make a mistake, then suddenly attacking while the enemy has their guard down.
The most goated ones are those with NO justification at all because it's just hilarious.
Caenis just returned to her original form.
Caenis was forced to return to his previous form, yes.
@@saxor96 I do like how they use that to the story's advantage as well, with Wodime being the only person to refer to Caenis as a man
And they hate every second of it
Lmao, she just can't have a break lol
@@EMIYA53 Not in her Summer version anymore. She's starting to feel less vulnerable to being her original self again as she realises she's surrounded by genuine and loving people.
Fate, where historical male figure turned woman and you can’t help but love them and the appealing of their beauty.
One of my favorites is: The Ancient Gods turned me into a tiny octopus, so I had my daughter do my job
Though to be honest, I wished they could have said that’s she’s one of Musashi’s adopted children and ended up taking the family name in honor of him.
just discovered your channel! I love your editing style and your narration is smooth. Instant sub!
Honestly I absolutely love Nero's outfit, because it's _clearly_ the way it is because she got Emperor's New Clothes'd and just ran with it XD
Nero, I think it can be justified because she is related to the Whore of Babylon and that is demonstrated with her Beast version.
Francis Drake is more difficult to find an explanation but I think it must be related to the version of Drake that we saw in Agartha that was a fusion with the character of Princess Dahut, I really didn't know that story that she was actually Queen Isabel taking her role, where did she come from?
It seems people doesn't know about okita and nobu real reason to be genderbent.
The real reason okita and nobu is genderbent cause they're made to resemble kohaku (okita) and akiha (nobu) in gag manga. Red hair nobu is a reference to akiha. Then after that they give them another reason when they're implemented in fgo.
What find interesting regarding this topic is no one talks about the why they did the whole genderbent thing in the first place.
Before shirou and arthoria. The main character is supposed to be ayaka and Arthur. When kinoko nasu is writing this idea. He got no confidence, he thought that his story was overdone and too cliche. He told takeuchi (his best friend and main artist for fate stay night/typemon). Then takeuchi said "just flipped their gender". Nasu thought this was horrible idea and thought takeuchi was just joking. But takeuchi was serious. So nasu try it and he thought it's actually brilliant. When you thought of female king Arthur at that time. Who would come to mind? No one right😂. That's it. Sorry for my bad English
Da Vinci could also be based on that old theory that the Mona Lisa was an adjusted self portrait of Da Vinci, that he used himself for the base and altered details.
The number 1 reason. Because Waifu. LMAO
As a veteran fgo player, I think the first genderbend that put me off was Da Vinci. Reason being, Da Vinci is well known to be a man as well as he has a real portrait if I remember correctly and I feel like twisting the history like that is a big stretch even for Type-Moon standards. I believe the reason why he appeared in the body of Mona Lisa is because he sought beauty or something? Not really sure since it's been a while, and doesn't really bother me anymore.
As you play FGO you just stop questioning the reasons lol. Xu Fu is a loli that simps for Yu Meirin? sure that may as well happen. In truth, Xu Fu is a dude.
The most genderbend that I didn't like comes from Apocrypha. Jack the ripper somehow is a loli, I think It was explained why but I stopped bothering. There's also Astolfo which isn't a genderbend but a trap. Then you really really really just stop questioning lmao. I love Mordred though, she's cool.
The best reason for me though, is that parallel universes. Arthur is a woman and there really exist a male Arthur. That broadens the horizon of how much they can twist hystorical figures because if Male Arthur exist means every heroic spirit has a version that reflects our real world history. Parallel universes in type-moon.
Which means we got stuck with the boring side of history, without magic and almost all dudes historical figures.
Yeah, if iirc Da Vinci purposefully used their science + magic to make her servant form a woman.
Great video, and I do love the topic cause the gender flip can be some of the worst and best liberties the Fate franchise takes.
As someone who did a lot of Latin and Roman culture studies when they were younger I would maybe make an update to your Nero part. Nero is one of the most easily justifiable gender benders. There are so many accounts of his gender "antics" it's hard to know fact from fiction. But even just looking up his listed spouses on Wikipedia will give you a good idea where they got the idea from. And also justify Nero Bride as a concept... I guess people don't know he was literally a bride at one point. Seems like it should be a well known thing. Very progressive.
One that’s pretty cool that’s recent is Francescois Prelati in fate/strange fake. The actual historical figure is recorded as a servant and is male, but the actual person has managed to survive through mage craft and switched into a girl body.
I think drake's genderbend is not that bad, the idea that the real francis drake is still a man and that fate's drake is Elizabeth the first and she is treated as a captain because of the respect the sailors had for her is quite fine in my book
what is funny about the drake swapping with elizabeth one is that it is likely to be true historically
9:46 Those interpolated animations were really hard to watch 😅
Sad that Drake is mostly forgotten. Can't even give us a costume dress of her bar maid outfit in FGO.
Da Vinci definitely has my favourite logic behind Artoria. Good discussion points all around.👍👍👍 Also the Anime footage in your video looks horrendous.
>*uses lore accurate evidence*
>still no catboy mozart
the funny thing about Drake is that FFV already did it with Faris.. they even have pink hair too
Caenis. :-) Enough said. Its literaly in their legend
No amount of excuses is gonna cut it. It's just plain simple. Pretty girls = Gooner money.
I like my girls handsome, thank you. Put them in suits, I say!
Dobrynya loving his wife so much that he manifests looking like her is one of my favorites
Ngl, genderbending Raikou to a female berserker to highlight her sorrow and regret due to her failure as a parrent is a bold move.
"You'll find most historic accounts of famous people veered to depict them as 30-something-year-old white men." - Saber of UBW Abridged by Project Mouthwash
i recall in a character analysis is that among the Shinsengumi, Okita was among, if not the only member, who did not get a photograph portrait. So while written as a man, we have no photo to actually compare their face allowing artist some liberty.
The design of Neros "revealing" dress can be somewhat explained. In many stories about the historical Nero it is stated, that he showed and lived his sexuality as he pleased. So giving a genderbend version of him a look through skirt etc can be a way to incorporate this characteristic of Nero himself. But this does not explain the genderbend in itself ...
A similiar thing can be said about Astolfo. The fact that this character in fate looks so female can be explained. The actors of Astolfo in the theater plays were females most of the time. So I can see why in fate astolfo looked so feminine.
Now that is interesting. I always thought Astolfo looks the way he does because he was depicted as a very handsome man, and the fact that his lore mentions he's literally lost his healthy mind most of the time
Absolutely. But I think that female actors were chosen for theaters to let him look more handsome.
"How did nobody realise why Artoria was a guy?"
Points to Bedivere
My favorite is Nobunaga Oda, she's just one of the many Demon King of the Myriad Heavens and we get to see many other version in the game as well
The best one is Hokusai because the father-daughter duo is trying to scam you thinking she's Hokusai when she's actually his daughter.
1:09 Hot Damn she looks good in a suit.
My favourite is still the case of Enkidu, where instead of a "half beast-man" they make him an actual beast that took the first human form they first met, aka Shamhat. That way, it made sense why not only are they so beautiful, officially they don't have a gender cause they can chenge form as will.
Also the picture of Okita that we have right now is not THE Okita. That’s just a stand in. The jury is still out there
Hokusai’s pretty clever
Hokusai doesn't fit into gender flip category, since he never switched gender. At best he fused with a female but that's it.
Isn't Hokusai the little octopus and it's his daughter?
IDK I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to Nasuverse
i also feel that Da vinci's acepting he/her change is kind of logical, i mean, she/he is someone who marked a turning point in human history, someone who helped it change, so he/she should be able to embrace that change really quick, that and heroic spirits are influenced by what people belive, there could be a chance that she was influenced a bit by the Mona lisa, or he got amazed by how famous it became that became some sort of "Ideal Beauty" for Da Vinci
What i like to imagine is, If Musashi from FGO meet Musashi from Vagabond she just mostly Love him lol
I actually just read the top comment that talked about Da Vinci. And all the reply's just make certain it wasn't already said. I remember on some TV show (History Chanel Maby) that the picture of the Mona Lisa was actually a self portrait of Da Vinci gender bent. It was just a possible theory. But it would make what happened in Fate really more interesting.
If i remember correctly, nobu also fall in a similiar category as musashi, like there is a male nobunaga, we know that, and we also know that he is canoniclly more powerfull than female nobu, a fact she isnt to thrilled about. Besides she is supposed to be a bit of a gag character to and yeah.
I did not understood at first about this, but my older brother told me its the nasu verse, thats why when Arthur Pendragon came along and portrayed as from another world it made me understood thats the IRL Arthur Pendragon.
Lol I always just chalked it up to ANIME. Never played/watched FGO, didn't know this had actual plot reasons.
I never watched this series but now I’m interested in knowing if there’s the other way round genderbending, female characters now males
the funnier interpretation of a lot of post-death genderbends is just implying historical figures were just trans in the Fate universe in an age where HRT wasn't a thing
Personally, i do not believe Okita's original intent was for that kind of research considering her origin as a joke character in Koha-Ace. I do think it is interesting to look at it now though.
Also apparently it’s possible that Artoria could shape shift since her/ his father could shape shift. So it’s possible she has this power too
Yeah i want to see male Musashi and the Mysterious Sasaki kojiro the real one.
I REALLY feel bummed out we got another waifu instead of a kickass giant feathered serpent god in Quetzalcoatl...i completely embrace Kuchan though
Let's not forget about the guy who died wanting revenge but wasn't strong enough to come back as a ghost on his own, so he merged with a female ghost who wanted revenge on the same person.
...Half of you are probably thinking I mean Taira-no-Kagekiyo but I was thinking of Sen-no-Rikyu. Everything I wrote could describe either one of them though. While I was typing it out I realized that they've basically done the same idea twice, just with very different character-designs and reveal arcs.
Davinci seems like a guy who, if he could turn into a woman with magic, probably would at least for a while, for the experience to grant him inspiration for art/inventions.
6:47 Majima as Okita XD
He is beautiful so it fits
Da Vinci is my favorite not only because of him being his Mona Lisa.... Because I love foreheads too.
05:40 That scared me a lil bit. Just a lil bit tho, definitely not pee'd my pants or anything
You talked about the why, but you really should have mentioned the how.
That Artoria was a woman because she wasn't born human, but was created as a homunculus by mixing Uther Pendragon's blood with that of an actual dragon. Also, just like how real-life sheep cloning at the time the VN was made could only clone female sheep (outside of Fate/Apocrypha), all homunculus created were created female. This is also why Mordred was a woman as well. Before the 20th century, there was only one male homunculus (Mephistopheles) created and his creator (Johan Faust) was a genius said to be 100 years ahead of his time.
One of my absolute biggest pet peves in anime is genderbending. However, like all other things in a good story, it is a story element, and as with every type of story element, it can be done correctly. I like the instances where it is done correctly. This is one, a weaker one if you ask me, but one none-the-less. Tanya is another really good one. I forget his name but there's another really good one in Log Horizon, they don't get a lot of screentime though. The best one I have seen is probably from a really old anime .hack//sign
Arthoria:a good design and idea
Drake:Shes hot.
The photo of Okita is fake; we don't know how Okita actually looked.
Nero is female just because they wanted the promotional material of Extra to bait and switch people into thinking she was literally "Red Saber", I like her character though and it ends up working in the context of Nero's crossdressing and the Whore of Babylon theories, something they embraced completely with her Nero Draco form.
Unlimited Waifu Works.
But really yes there is a backstory in Fate Stay Night but the bigger reason is it was a original a Visual Novel where you get to lewd the main heroines which Saber is one.
Based on how Fate Series works with how Heroic Spirits need to be Historical Figures if they want to have more Waifus then they have to get "creative".
The reason for Sir Francis Drake's kind of work is that Queen Elizabeth the First supported Piratery because she was a pirate herself. As a way to deal with her daily stress as a queen, she'd go on the ship as Sir Francis Drake to explore. The Idea comes from the fact that Sir Francis Drake has never been formally seen in the same room as the Queen, even his knighthood was given to him on his ship away from public eye.
Also, Da Vinci's reasoning was not just that he saw the Mona Lisa as the perfect embodiment of beauty; it was that there were no historical records of a lady even existing. Hence, the belief that the Mona Lisa is Da Vinci himself but gender-bent.
As for Nero, his Roman, and what do we know Romans? They aren't all straight, and their idea of beauty fits the same as the one Nero has in fate. Hell a simple google search of was emperor Nero very beautiful and you'd see traits depicted by fate, now I must admit her, chest a bit much, but the idea was Ideal there.
It was funny learning about Genderbenting Da Vinci the first time i saw her, because years before that i was having a History of art class with a teacher, and she started talking about how some people actually thought thst Mona Lisa was Da Vinci's ideal self. How he wanted to look like... Basically that he might have had ideas of wanting to be a gorgeous woman.
And then, many years later, Fate does this. It was quite the Whiplash flashback i had to that class lol