You've now seen three of my favourite Doctor Who moments, 1: "Do I have the right?" A contender for Tom Baker's greatest moment as the Doctor and there's plenty of those yet to come. 2: "That power would set me up above the gods!" Baker and Wisher's acting in this scene is titanic. It's the seminal blueprint for all of the Doctor and Davros' future clashes. 3: "...our rightful place as the supreme beings of the universe!" Davros and Nyder's karmic downfall and the riveting monologue by the Dalek (who is suggested to eventually become the Dalek Emperor) delivered right at the camera and by extension the stunned audience.
All wonderful moments. Have you seen the insanely funny outtake of your number 3 moment? Some people claim its fake but it seems too well done. When delivering that line, the actor with the dalekized voice breaks down with a coughing fit. Then you hear 'Cut - take 46'! If true, it would explain why he emphasizes 'Uniiiveeerrrse!' - finally getting it right! Hilarious whether a fake or real.
4: Time Lord dialog, rewritten by Sesska "When your mission is over, activate the time Thingie on your wrist to leave Skaros. Do not lose the Thingie. It is your life-line."
I love how the Fourth Doctor poses the question here about the child who would become ruthless and destroy millions of lives, and then years later the Twelfth Doctor is given that very dilemma with young Davros.
So, my personal favourite little detail here: when the Doctor presents Davros with the hypothetical virus idea, Davros holds his hand as if he is imagining having the vial in it, and when he says 'Yes, Doctor! I would do it!' he closes it as if he's imagining crushing it. What's especially great about that quirk is that, if you cast your mind back to Journey's End in NuWho, Davros does the exact same action when he's describing the Reality Bomb, making it clear that this is his ultimate answer to the question that the Doctor posed him, all those years ago. A++ reaction and analysis as well, especially the note about Davros' reaction to the Daleks turning on him, I myself haven't even noticed that before.
Also had he actually been holding such a vial he'd likely be its first, or one of its first, victims - foreshadowing his later death at the hands of "his" Daleks later.
I was about 7 years old when this was first shown in the UK and for 6 weeks we played Dr Who and the Daleks at school every playtime. It was the most exciting thing on TV at the time for us wee kids. Some folks have complained that it's maybe too dark for little kids but I would argue against that. We loved it.
@@alistairrae9807 Really "The Chase" was part of the Time War since the Daleks have free movement to travel in time and hunt down Time Lords (along with android duplicates of same) and in The Daleks' Master Plan they have time machines AND a Time Destructor... the clue's in the name! They also time travel in Troughton and Pertwee stories... Genesis is therefore one of the last throws of the dice for the Time Lords to prevent a complete Dalek takeover of time and space. Maybe that's why Russell Davies called it "The Last Great Time War", after all the earlier ones...
@@frankshailes3205 But chronologically, _"The Chase"_ is set thousands of years after this story. In fact, since this story chronicles the creation of the Daleks, then every Dalek story must therefore be set sometime _after_ this one. So if one argues that _Genesis of the Daleks_ was the beginning of the Time War, then *_all_* Dalek stories are part of it. Personally, I feel this is one of those "when did a ape become a human?" sort of situations. That is, you're trying to pinpoint an exact time the war started when no such thing exists. That said, I prefer to confine "Time War" to the events between the 96 movie & _"Rose,"_ as this period is when war was formerly declared between the Time Lords and the Daleks. Anything occurring before that is pure conjecture, nothing more. Because for every person claiming _Genesis_ kicked off the Time War, couldn't another person say that the Time War started when the inhabitants of Skaro split into two factions - the Thals and the Kaleds?
@@frankshailes3205 So what? The Daleks didn't develop time travel until thousands of years after _Genesis,_ so no matter how you look at it, all other Dalek stories *_must_* be subsequent to this one. If the Daleks develop time travel, and then travel to their past before their own creation, that still doesn't make *_that_* story the "first" incident of the Time War. _Genesis_ involves a Time Lord attempt to avert their creation to begin with at the moment in time when they were *_being_* created, so in all frames of reference, this is the *_first_* event. _"The Chase"_ only occurs before _"Genesis"_ from The Doctor's frame of reference, no else's.
(1) Genesis of the Daleks is a timeless classic and considered to be one of the greatest Doctor Who stories ever and it’s pretty easy to see why. I love how it shows the effects a long, gruelling war has on two societies, not just in terms of the technological/weaponry deterioration, but also how both have become just as ruthless and bloodthirsty as the other. The war has been going on for so long that the reasons why it started in the first place have been forgotten, there are no good guys in this situation. It’s easy to see how a man like Davros rises to power in this scenario and why he creates the Daleks. You can see Davros was once a great mind and scientist, but the years have ravaged and driven him insane. To the point that he’s willing to create genetically engineered killing machines out of his fellow Kaleds and destroy anyone who gets in his path. Even all his own people. Davros is a man who has known nothing except war his entire life and he has reached the conclusion that the war can only end, and peace can only be achieved through the total extermination of the Thals. Davros doesn’t see this as evil, he sees it as necessary to end the suffering and bloodshed. There’s more to it than just that though. The great scene where Davros and the Doctor discuss if he would be willing to release a virus that would kill all other lifeforms (it’s interesting because the Doctor is clearly equating creating the Daleks to unleashing a deadly virus) shows that to great effect. Davros would do it, which shows that he’s become power mad and feels every other lifeform in the universe is inferior and deserves to either be ruled or destroyed. His and the Daleks’ will is the law and all who oppose them will need to be crushed to preserve peace. In Davros’ mind, trying to please all sides shows weakness and will only lead to being taken advantage of. It’s either rule or be ruled. Democracy is the creed of cowards. War has made Davros twisted and turned him into a sociopath. He’s lost the ability to feel mercy and compassion for other beings, he considers any other species and even anyone with opposing viewpoints as the enemy and he imbues the Daleks with all these traits. This ultimately leads to his downfall. The Daleks revolt and try to take control from him because of course they would. The Daleks were created to believe everything unlike them is inferior, so why should they take orders from an old cripple who needs a life support system to stay alive? In his final moments, Davros asks the Daleks to show mercy, but that’s an emotion he removed from the Daleks. It’s poetic justice that Davros’ demise (at least until he returns) comes at the hands of his own creations and because of the extreme modifications he made for them to be as ruthless as possible. It’s brilliant writing. I’d argue no other recurring villain/monster gets a better introduction than Davros. It’s almost a shame he ever returned because this initial appearance is so perfect.
His first appearance (Genesis of the Daleks) was his best one. To me it felt like he was intended to be a one-off villain originally, but they brought him back by popular demand, which is great anyway. I kind of wished they had done some plot device to bring back Klieg "The All-Powerful?" a couple more times. He was a great over the top villain. Doctor Who can get away with this stuff because of time/dimension/space travel and it's great when it plays around with it more than usual in the main story like Genesis did.
@@wispa1a Yeah, where did I say otherwise? All I said is Genesis of the Daleks is a timeless classic and one of the greatest Doctor Who stories ever. I'd say the same for City of Death too.
"Do I have the right?" - Possibly the Fourth Doctor's finest moment and demonstrates that even a family show can tackle moral quandaries and serious themes. Tom Baker himself apparently took this moment so seriously that he was almost "agonising" over the dialogue, which just goes to show why he is one of, if not the best Doctor in the history of the show.
@@rnw2739 A relief to the audience? Yes, so much so that viewing figures...*checks notes* fell off a cliff after his run ended and never recovered for the remainder of the classic series.
@@rnw2739 Tom's last season had awful ratings by his standards. The best rated story had 7.5 million viewers. While all of the following season beat that, out of the rest of classic who only 4 stories managed to surpass 7.5 million, so to say they improved is hogwash.
I love that Big Finish decided to do an alternative universe where the Fourth Doctor decided that he does indeed have that right and the universe basically went to hell, causing the Time War to start prematurely and the events lead to his next incarnation becoming the Warrior.
Two points that makes this serial such a stand-out to me is 1) Actually having Davros believing himself that what he is doing IS morally and objectively right, and when the Doctor's hypothetical reveals to him that his true feelings are totally deranged, where some characters would have an "oh my god what have I become" moment, he instead goes "hell yeah!" and embraces it. and 2) Whereas in the first season finale of nuWho he's faced with the consequence of all the humans on earth being collateral damage if he carries out his plan, here the only consequence of wiping them out would be to his own soul, and PERSONALLY I can't help but feel like it carries a lot more weight here.
There's a Big Finish miniseries that covers the origin of Davros, in it you find out that he's even more monstrous than he's shown here. In the story, after gaining enough power to influence the government, he institutes a mandate that all newborns must be turned over to the state in order to treat the widespread mutations that are ravaging the Kaleds. In reality, however, he's exacerbating the mutations in these infants to turn them into the first generation of Kaled mutants that we see in this story. That's right: the mutants that attack the Doctor in this story are mutated babies that were taken from their mothers shortly after their birth.
@@frankshailes3205 It's the first strike in the Time War. As in, the war literally fought through time. Not merely clashes between Time Lords and Daleks here and there. None of those strike directly at the very existence of the Daleks.
My pet fan theory is that the Twelfth Doctor saving Davros, which in that episode led to Davros adding "mercy" to the Dalek vocabulary, ends up changing time and allows Davros to survive "Genesis" when he originally didn't
One interesting facet is the contrast between the Doctor's doubts and Sarah Jane's lack of hesitation. One rather gets the feeling that if Sarah had held the wires the story would have ended differently! We need to remember that Sarah Jane would have grown up in the immediate aftermath of WWII and, even if too young to have memories of the war would have been surrounded by those who lived and fought through it. I was born fifteen years after the end of WW2 but every adult I knew as a child had lived through the conflict. Those experiences shaped not only their own outlook but also the views of the next generation. I'd have been with Sarah Jane and acted without hesitation. Damn the paradoxes, we can only act on the knowledge we have.
Nothing for Harry? He's the military man, with a doctor's oath to do no harm. But military doctors have shot patients to prevent them falling into the hands of a murderous enemy, and he would know this. Harry, given those two wires, would have gone into the incubator room and set off the explosives. The Doctor and Sarah could have cried a single tear and gone on, imagining their morals to be un-tainted.
The Wire is one of the greatest moments in Fiction, it's the Terminator from the Terminator's perspective. It's the Baby Hitler Question presented on national television for all ages. It's a performance that is not only informed by the past, but massively informs the future, the moment most informed by it, is 9's "I Made It Happen" speech, because you wonder if he thinks back to those two wires and how much he has changed.
I'm always obsessed with that final moment where Davros's hand hovers over the kill switch. Even at the cost of his own life he can't destroy the Daleks. They've gotten too big even for their creator to stop.
The problem with the killing the baby before they become evil kind of thing is this: if you killed them, they never did the evil stuff, so you never travelled back in time to kill them, so they lived to do the evil stuff, so you travelled back to kill them, so then they never did the evil stuff, so you never travelled back and so on. It creates a constant loop.
Presuming time progresses in a straight line and doesn't branch off when a decision is made. Perhaps you kill Hitler as a child and someone slightly less mad, sensible enough not to betray his allies but just as ruthless takes his place. In which case you have to go back in time again. Presuming of course that you still have the ability to travel back in time again having already changed the future you lived in once.
They did that in the Pertwee story, "Day of the Daleks"... the guerillas from the future tried to avert the war that let the Daleks conquer Earth, by killing the person they thought started that war, and if they succeeded in changing the past, they would erase their own present, and never be able to travel back and stop the war.... Luckily a Time Lord was present to break the loop.
I first watched this story as a 5 year old. Davros scared the cr*p out of me. Later had the story on tape cassette, LP, and later video and DVD. Classic story with some interesting moral dilemmas. Give Tom Baker as the Doctor a decent villain to go up against and he'll always give you a first class performance.
Davros: “You will tell me the reason for every Dalek defeat.” The Doctor: “Well, then there was this haunted house with a robot Frankenstein’s monster and a robot Dracula; oh and there was a Dalek who couldn’t do sums.” Davros: “I’m sorry... what?” The Doctor: “Oh, and the Daleks landed on a sailing ship and one of them fell overboard.” Davros: “What?!” The Doctor: “And one of them fell in a trap we made because I called it Auntie.” Davros: “Are you taking this seriously?”
I've always loved the parallel between the Doctor's "Do I have the right?" moment and Davros' speech about the theoretical microscopic organism. The Doctor questions the morality of destroying the Daleks while the immoral Davros would have no qualms about unleashing the organism even if it destroyed the universe. An interesting, thought provoking story that succeeds in making the Daleks menacing again and introduces an all time great villain in their creator. Plus giant man-eating clams!
That's why it's so hyped - a good story, memorable villain, interesting moral dilemma, well made, great supporting cast & first shown when Dr Who was at one of its peaks of popularity (many peoples favourite Dr & favourite companion, who nearly got her own Classic era spin off, in Sarah Jane) - also the era most fans of New Who are likely to start with due to Sarah Jane and "the best classic Doctor". There are probably better stories in Classic Who, but not so many people have seen them, so the competition gets less hype and this story gets talked about by even more casual fan's - which then makes it one of the "recommended start" episodes for people new to Classic Who to watch - increasing the hype further.
There are several stories I think could be said to be the "best" of Classic Who, depending upon the person and their interests. If I had to make me list of those, it would include: The Dalek's Master Plan Power of the Daleks (usually my #1) Evil of the Daleks Inferno The Daemons Genesis of the Daleks (obviously) City of Death The Caves of Androzani The Curse of Fenric With the following very honorable mentions: The Aztecs Dalek Invasion of Earth The Tomb of the Cybermen The Enemy of the World Web of Fear War Games The Silurians Terror of the Autons Pyramids of Mars The Brain of Morbius The Deadly Assassin The Talons of Wang-Chiang (because of problematic issues, others would be on the best of list) The Keeper of Traken Logopolis Kinda Earthshock Enlightenment Frontios Vengeance on Varos Revelation of the Daleks Trial of a Time Lord Remembrance of the Daleks Ghostlight
Get well soon Jess! I'm very glad you enjoyed it. I typically don't like episodes written by Terry Nation (who does most of the Dalek episodes) but this is a contender for my favourite Classic Who story. It's a weird outlier in that way. Davros, Nyder, the moral dilemma, the whole Nazi vibe of the Kaleds and the concept of a war that's been raging for so long that the most advanced weapons have been used are ALL fantastic. Plus, I love Sarah Jane's outfit at the end of this story, with the camo pants. I only realised when rewatching this that the Doctor found it in a locker. It's a cute moment when he hands her the trousers.
I'm about to sound like an idiot, but because everyone always just refers to him as 'creator of the Daleks' it never really clicked in my mind that Terry Nation wrote the complete scripts of the early Dalek episodes. I mean, I did know it, but in my head he was more of a creature designer than a screenwriter. Your comment just gave me a new appreciation of his work 😅
Thanks for an entertaining reaction! I'd like to reassure you that there are *plenty* of terrific stories yet to come in classic Who. It isn't about the jump the Quark!
Fantastic! A brilliant end to a truly classic Who serial. Not alone the 'have I the right scene' but my personal favourite, the hypothetical 'lethal virus' scene between the Doctor and Davros. Absolutely riveting performances from Tom Baker and Michael Wisher. Thank you so much for another great reaction Jess ☺👍
17:56 Live by the Dalek, die by the Dalek. His own perverse creations became a monster that wanted to destroy their own creator. He made them more evil than he bargained for. The Daleks in Power of the Daleks were some of the best played ones. They had a personality a lot like Davros in that one, all cunning and plotting, etc. It established that the while the Daleks are heartless like machines, they're actually pretty intelligent, which makes them even more menacing.
I always thought that reluctance in the two wires scene really works because its less about whether the Doctor would be right or wrong for doing it and more about contrasting him with Davros. The latter said he'd be willing to wipe out life just because he could. The Doctor in his moment had supreme justification to take out the Daleks, with both the Time Lords and his own companions supporting the decision.. and he hesitated. This story has been filled with various parties all determined to wipe each other out for own motivations. Thals happy at the end of the Kaleds, Kaleds designing strategies to take take out all Thals, Mutos trying to kill anyone different, and the Daleks exterminations speaking for themselves. But the Doctor? For whatever lack of humility and grand arrogance the he might might display at times, the question of wiping out an entire sentient race, (even one as fundamentally evil as the Daleks) is one he deems as being a bigger than himself. For all his knowledge, experience, and perspective in his lifetimes, is his reasoning for entirely destroying the Daleks that different from all the other parties in this story? Is he truly the one to decide which races of beings are to live or to die? Regardless of the answer, its great character moment for the Doctor, because he's willing to ask himself the question.
Love this episode and it definitely ends on a high. I can't say anything about how fantastic the "Do I have the right?" Speech that hasn't been said Plus Davros using democracy as a means to slaughter his enemies is effectively unnerving. Using their own morals to betray them. Sort of showing that even though it's absolutely evil he's unfortunately right. And The Doctor threatening his life shows how flexible the Doctor's morality is.
'Yes, I WOULD do it!' Davros pronounces, having already symbolically broken the capsule. Nothing is out of bounds. How were we to know this kind of personality would haunt us forever?
The Doctor makes the point that the existence of the Daleks will unite many worlds that would've been separate and squabbling otherwise, against the greater menace. Like now (although China seems to be siding with the menace, which says a lot about them...)
What I love about 'Genesis' is that because we know the Daleks so well by now (from the beginning of Classic Who), the story strangely feels like a historical. The dialogue and direction feel similar to the Hartnell historicals. This shouldn't be too much a spoiler, but you have more wonderful Classic Who historicals to look forward to!
Would you say it goes down as one of the most thought-provoking episodes of Classic Who? Terry Nation tried his best to make all the metaphors stick to the wall. And now, after seeing this episode, does it make you think back to scenes like the exchange between Sarah Jane and Davros in "Journey's End"? I'm 52. This is the Who I remenber from my 8-year-old days in Central New York.
There is so many good elements in this story. As you said the moral debate is excellently put forward, and that it is left both open and unresolved, so that like all good morality issues, the show does not push the audience either way very far. Leaving the viewer to continue that debate for themselves. I also loved the support cast as I mentioned last week. Because they give you the feeling of fully developed characters. As you know Davros returns in NewWho, he is lucky enough that, thanks to the make-up another actor can be cast in the role and still look (more or less) identical to how he appears in this story. a changing face is each to explain with someone like say the Master, but not so easy with a character like Nyder. Which is a pity. Another element I liked about this story is how well if fits with the cannon as established within the show so far. Little elements such as the Daleks being buried in their bunker and having to take time to dig themselves out, is a nice nod to the way they are encountered in the first Dalek story. That aspect is often pointed out in NewWho making call backs, but here is ClassicWho doing it. All in all a good story told very well. One of the few 6 parters that really needed and used all six parts very well.
The very practical problem with the Baby Hitler scenario is that if you did kill him, who knows what might happen? Perhaps a Soviet Union war on Europe in the 1950s that ended in nuclear annihilation? Who knows what monsters, even more evil than themselves, the Daleks might have wiped out?
(2) This story also gives great context for why the Daleks are the way they are and why they refuse to evolve. The Daleks come from a war-ravaged world; a world where a megalomaniac genetically engineered them to be full of hate for anything remotely different and deemed it necessary for them to believe they are the supreme beings and everyone else needs to be ruled or killed. The truth is the Daleks are horribly mutated Kaleds that have had to retreat inside metal tanks because that’s the only way they can survive. These tanks give Daleks the power to kill and exact their will, but in reality, stuck inside are helpless little squids. They would be nothing without the tanks and yet they believe themselves to be perfect and stubbornly refuse to evolve and change and destroy everything else because their creator programmed them that way, so in a way, it’s not even entirely their fault! That’s the tragedy of the Daleks. Some people have said that the biggest problem with the Daleks is that they never change and that makes them predictable as villains, but that’s the whole point. The Daleks are pathetic, and the dramatic irony and tragedy comes from their compulsion to refuse to change their ways and destroy anything different. I will say though, introducing Davros definitely renewed them at this point, and they now had a face to their villainy. Someone who could go toe to toe with the Doctor in a verbal sparring, which is not really something you can do with a Dalek because of what and who they are as characters, but also because of the nature of a Dalek prop. I also love the Doctor’s moral dilemma and all the questions it raises. The best thing about it though is that the story doesn’t give a firm answer because there isn’t one. Objectively speaking, if the Doctor did destroy the Daleks at their beginning, he would save countless people from suffering in the future. What would that make him though, what gives him the right to shape the future and kill an intelligent lifeform before it even has the chance to develop? No one man should have that much power because absolute power corrupts absolutely. Davros is the perfect example of that. As the Doctor says, some things would be better with the Daleks. Entire worlds will unite and become allies because of their fear of the Daleks, so as evil as the Daleks are, some good will come out of their existence. Nothing is black and white, all possibilities need to be considered when taking a decision like that. With all that being said, it’s really interesting that, given the second chance, the Doctor chooses to go back to the incubation room to end the Daleks once and for all. It’s as if after he witnessed what Davros and the Daleks did to all those scientists, he immediately regretted hesitating and felt he had to go through with it. Obviously, we as viewers know something will inevitably happen again to prevent the Doctor from succeeding, but it’s still really interesting to see the Doctor so committed to destroying the Daleks because it shows that when push comes to shove, the Doctor is willing to pull the trigger and commit genocide if it means saving the lives of millions. This is an idea RTD would go on to develop in far more detail with the Time War and considering the fact that he also says this story is the first shot fired in the Time War, Genesis is probably one of the top two or three most important stories in the show’s history. In many ways this story is the focal point of Doctor Who because so many future plot threads, themes and character studies of the Doctor converge on this one story. After failing once again, I get the sense that the Doctor thinks the destruction the Daleks will cause is inevitable and that it’s futile to fight against time. He’s content in the knowledge that some good will come out of the Daleks’ evil and ultimately reaches the conclusion that the future should be left to work itself out and that he has no right to interfere because doing so would mean going against all of his morals. The Doctor loses because he fails in his mission to either alter the Daleks to become less aggressive beings or destroy them, condemning countless billions to death, but he also wins because he refuses to become like the Daleks by forgoing his morals and exterminating defenceless Dalek embryos. The ultimate pyrrhic victory. It’s so multi layered and balanced. As all things should be. The story as a whole is just excellent and a brilliant showcase for everything Doctor Who is and can be
Love that such a classic was a bit of a rush re-write after the original stroy was rejected for being too similar to previous one...The writer seriously came back fighting lol.
1:19 Dravros description of the dalaks seems very similar to how the Roman Empire was formed, "the romans invade, create a wasteland and call it peace"
One great element of Genesis of the Daleks is that it ends in such a way that for the Daleks, the next "story" for them is "The Daleks." The Doctor set up his own adventure by the way he left things.
If the Doctor had averted the Daleks' creation, then the Timelords would have no reason to send him back to destroy them, as they never existed. But if he didn't go back, they would exist, so he would go back, so they wouldn't exist...paradox. The fact the Timelords don't seem to think undoing the Daleks would mean they never sent the Doctor back implies an omniscient perspective on time, and the ability to shape it if they chose, much more power than we ever saw them wield onscreen.
It also brings in the dilemma of time travel itself. Like if you didn't actually travel through time, it sort of changes things in your decision making of whether to wipe out the daleks with the differences in awareness. You don't have the hindsight of its relative future, nor any of its guilt in knowing what the positives would have been with them in it. It sort of goes back to the dilemma that new life often comes out of a destruction. Celestial events are like this, and so are wars. Like how there is a historical pattern of there being a baby boom after a bad war. Hence where the Baby Boomer generation got its name from (the generation born right after WWII).
Jess this serial is even more gritty when you considered it was made as a children's show on a tiny budget and broadcast on a Saturday evening between 5 & 6pm.
@@eddhardy1054 actually, all of Classic Who was made by the BBC’s Drama department, and not the Children’s department. It was only ever seen by some adults as a children’s show because of the bad special effects and sometimes bad looking monsters, which was more down to lack of a decent budget than it was lack of creativity between writers and set/monster designers!
@@andrewroberts299 this is all well known stuff mate but my point still stands, it was considered a show for children and yet still dealt with subjects that a lot of adult teatime (& evening) scifi & fantasy dramas shied away from. Everytime the BBC now call it Classic Who it really boils my piss as throughout the 60s, 70s & (especially) the 80s they treated it with utter contempt. Luckily fans like me didn't care about tiny budgets and ridiculous recording schedules. All that mattered to us were engaging stories told with commitment. Something Modern Who has Sometimes neglected.
The classic writing of Terry Nation. I really hope one day you cover Blake’s 7 series. At times I find it can even be better then classic who. Also was made close to this time.
Baby Hitler is definitely the appropriate comparison, and the new series went there even more explicitly with Davros. The answer has always been option C beyond the kill/don't kill binary. Take him away from his abusive family - Hitler's dad apparently was a violent brute - and put him with a decent family that will raise him to be decent.
I'm going to go off topic to begin with and enjoy watching your reviews . They are very articulate well thought out observations and you don't look bad either 😊. Just a bonus point at the end 😊 As you're probably aware the Daleks were originally based on Nazis ideology a militaristic dictatorship. It believes it's superior to all others because of it's genetically manipulation and purity. Those who are not Daleks are exterminated or worked to death in Dalek camps. It's brilliant to see how it all began but today it does show its age because of the effects and it is comical looking at the state of the art technology in the bunker lol. But it is still really good to watch!
My controversial take on _Genesis_ is that Davros should have stayed dead. I think its a more fitting end that in his final moments the facade falls and Davros reveals he is no Nietzschean superman; just a very scarred and damaged product of the horrors of war. The Doctor's "do I have the right" speech is a triumph of deeply meaningful and yet fully universalistic dialogue applicable to all cultures and all eras. When I was a kid in the '90s watching this story for the first time that speech summoned to mind Saddam Hussein and Slobodan Milosevich.
There's a Big Finish series, the Unbound Doctor of War, which explores a universe where the Doctor did commit genocide here. It goes terribly, so it seems he ultimately made the right decision.
But killing baby Hitler wouldn't do anything about baby Stalin, and Stalin might be worse, then there's baby Mao.... When does the killing end? Who knows what horrors would develop with deaths of known enemies, the unknown might be worse.
The whole basis of the Season 9 opener hinges on one scene in this story and that itself has to be a testament to its staying power. But it's true enough. How can we ever rid ourselves of corrupted people, when they have yet to be corrupted?
For many people this is believed to be the beginning of the Time War that Time Lords sending the Doctor back to prevent the Daleks creation is what sparks all out war because the Daleks don’t forget the Time Lords tried to prevent their creation
The Daleks built a DARDIS to hunt down the Doctor and his companions after they prevented the Dalek Invasion of Earth (the Daleks wanted to use it as a base to invade other planets) and then made a Time Destructor to conquer entire galaxies, using time machines again to hunt down the time travellers interfering with that plan. Then they were going to use time travel to infect all humanity all though history with xenophobic murderous instincts and finally , after a Time Lord wrecked their civilisation, they used time travel to invade Earth in the past and destroy its future. All before the first Tom Baker story. I'd say the Time Wars were well underway, hence the Time Lords trying to cancel the Daleks at birth.
Mark's out of ten? I watched it as a child and thought it was great! I gave it eight. This is definately a great season, I'm glad your enjoying it and hope your better soon. I wonder what the next adventure will be? 🙂👍
If you ever look into the audio-dramas from Big Finish, DEFINITELY look into 'I, Davros'. It's basically Davros's biography, charting his life from childhood into adulthood, showing how he became the beast that he is today.
The lesson with this story for me is that prevention is always better than cure. It's why in the story the Doctor went back to commit that genocide. It's about the greater good. Inaction based upon such a moral dilemma is like saying the annihilation of 6 million Jewish people was justified because the Geneva Convention on Human Rights came about as a result. As the Daleks were created as an allegory for the Nazis, this particular story was very poignant.
It’s a great story, but it’s one of many in classic Who. It’s like the way everyone hypes Blink, but personally I prefer Human Nature/The Family of Blood from that series. But Blink is still great. There are lots of stories from this era of Who that I love, Genesis is just one of them.
While a very good story, not my favorite. My favorites are still to come. I do think Tom Baker's first seasons are the best in classic Who, and I can't wait for you to see these great stories!
This was the first time viewers saw Davros. You've seen the New Who performances. What do you think of the original and have the later performers & writers lived up to Michael Wisher?
This isn't a hate comment, I just have to mention this, It's [Dav-ross] not [Dav-rose]. I don't know if you knew you were saying his name wrong or not, it just throws me off everytime you say Davros' name wrong. : ) I've been watching your reactions now ever since your reactions to RTD's era of New who & as soon as you started reacting to Classic Who, I knew this story would only be a matter of time. Myself & many others are glad you enjoyed this story with it's implications & questions it creates. Without giving away any spoilers, whilst this story is well known & considered by many to be the best of Classic Who, there are many more story's to come that are just as good. I await more reactions. : )
It's a peculiar American habit to pronounce names ending in "-os" like that - e.g. kudos is pronounced as "kudowce", cosmos as "cosmowce" and Carlos as "carlowce", etc (when it should be kudoss, cosmoss, carloss, etc). I really don't know why they do this, because it's baffling from a phonetic _and_ linguistic perspective. Most, if not all, these words have a Greek or Spanish origin and Greeks, Spaniards, and nearly everyone else outside the USA pronounce the combination of "o" and "s" to rhyme with "doss", not "dose".
Surprised you didn't mention Sarah's costume change. In the middle of everything going to hell around them Sarah thinks hey I like this let's see if it fits. lol The reason for the change of clothing is because the next story was filmed before this one and they had to get her into the right costume for it to make sense. As to where the Doctor found his coat and hat? Who knows lol
I suppose they were getting pretty dirty and sweaty after climbing through those ventilation shafts. Surprised Harry hasn't changed all season! And the Mutos must stink!
Daleks don't like change and thats what makes them terrifying and unique. Davros just wants to conquer the universe and be king in his own little world in the words of The Ninth Doctor. Michael Wisher was superb as Davros the character was created by Terry Nation. One of my favourute Tom Baker stories and there are many more to come. If i was in The Doctor's situation i dont think i could do it either even though you know how things turn out. Yeah don't get your expectations too high because if you do that it all falls apart and you lose the enjoyment of the story unfortunately 7th hour films another reaction do that alot though it's more of an examination than a reaction.
I'm really sorry people aren't listening to you, and they tell you don't want to know. Unfortunately, there are people out there who hear what you say, but they don't care and write it down anyway.
Sometimes I still think that 'Genesis...' would have been better left as a 'one and done' creation story, because it so perfectly symbolizes the dangers present in following an ideology to its inevitably conclusion. Davros is hoisted (temporarily as it turns out) by his own petard and has nobody to blame but himself. And the Doctor's sign-off - surprisingly profound for this most flippant of turns - almost makes the rest of the series after it seem unnecessary. Which is probably why it often seems to exist off in some private bubble by itself.
It definitely is a top story and classed as one of the best Dalek one's but as much as I like Daleks they don't always have the best stories. You can name this as one of the few great Dalek stories in old and new Who. Then there was the decent Dalek ones, and then there was average Dalek ones. This in the great Dalek Stories. This is a good one no doubt but is it the best ever in my opinion? To me there is better Pertwee stories. Would it make my top 10? Who knows. I'm going through the same journey.
If the Doctor had gone through with it, he would have also changed his own personal history. Just taking examples from the First Doctor. Susan never would have stayed on Earth with David. In the Dalek Masterplan Katarina never would have died. There's no telling when or even if Barbara and Ian would have ever got home because they only made it thanks to the Dalek's time machine. When he was the Second Doctor, him and Jamie never would have met Victoria.
With regards to your "HITLER analogy" there was a wonderful show called the OUTER LIMITS, I excellent episode, has time agents going back in time to kill Hitler as a baby, there are 2 TWO MAJOR twists that you won't see coming (SPOILERS) do yourself a favour, watch that one episode, and be shocked, twice!!
A later story has just that: Davros frozen in a cell, on a distant space station, with less and less money being spent on guarding him. Goes as well as could be expected.
get well soon , I have started drinking ....Oat milk , its really good , . What i remeber , there was two , great actors who play davros , classic , shows , Dr who, check out K9 , companion , ones . shame , K9 was taken to usa , as a carton , it flopped . SARAH JANE ADVENTERS , now thats a serires you need to watch , Yes its a child show , but like i said ....ELleizaberth was a great actrerres. love and hugs , stay safe take it easy xoxoxooxoxox
Kill "Hitler"?... BUT, many cultures came together and united so they could fight him... No "Hitler", no unification... Yeah. Not such a simple decision to make... One of the best Doctor Who stories of all time.
Lovelies! If you haven't seen on twitter, I am insanely sick and will react to She-Hulk whenever I don't feel like death.
Take things easy and look after yourself. As enjoyable as your reactions are, they can wait. Your health comes first.
Take care of yourself! We’ll still be here when you get back.
No rush get well soon that series isn't that good
Rest up, get well! We will be here when you return!
Get well soon, Sesska. Exterminate COVID!
You've now seen three of my favourite Doctor Who moments, 1: "Do I have the right?" A contender for Tom Baker's greatest moment as the Doctor and there's plenty of those yet to come.
2: "That power would set me up above the gods!" Baker and Wisher's acting in this scene is titanic. It's the seminal blueprint for all of the Doctor and Davros' future clashes.
3: "...our rightful place as the supreme beings of the universe!" Davros and Nyder's karmic downfall and the riveting monologue by the Dalek (who is suggested to eventually become the Dalek Emperor) delivered right at the camera and by extension the stunned audience.
All wonderful moments. Have you seen the insanely funny outtake of your number 3 moment? Some people claim its fake but it seems too well done. When delivering that line, the actor with the dalekized voice breaks down with a coughing fit. Then you hear 'Cut - take 46'! If true, it would explain why he emphasizes 'Uniiiveeerrrse!' - finally getting it right! Hilarious whether a fake or real.
4: Time Lord dialog, rewritten by Sesska
"When your mission is over, activate the time Thingie on your wrist to leave Skaros. Do not lose the Thingie. It is your life-line."
I love how the Fourth Doctor poses the question here about the child who would become ruthless and destroy millions of lives, and then years later the Twelfth Doctor is given that very dilemma with young Davros.
And the clip of tom saying that is used in the Capaldi episode as well.
Sadly that episode is complete crap compared to the gold standard set by this episode along with many others.
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475Thank you!
So, my personal favourite little detail here: when the Doctor presents Davros with the hypothetical virus idea, Davros holds his hand as if he is imagining having the vial in it, and when he says 'Yes, Doctor! I would do it!' he closes it as if he's imagining crushing it. What's especially great about that quirk is that, if you cast your mind back to Journey's End in NuWho, Davros does the exact same action when he's describing the Reality Bomb, making it clear that this is his ultimate answer to the question that the Doctor posed him, all those years ago.
A++ reaction and analysis as well, especially the note about Davros' reaction to the Daleks turning on him, I myself haven't even noticed that before.
Also had he actually been holding such a vial he'd likely be its first, or one of its first, victims - foreshadowing his later death at the hands of "his" Daleks later.
I was about 7 years old when this was first shown in the UK and for 6 weeks we played Dr Who and the Daleks at school every playtime. It was the most exciting thing on TV at the time for us wee kids. Some folks have complained that it's maybe too dark for little kids but I would argue against that. We loved it.
One of my favorites and objectively one of the best.
This story is considered by many to be the beginning of the Time War.
Even in the Doctor Who Universe in things like Big Finish it’s believed this sparks the Time War
@@alistairrae9807 Really "The Chase" was part of the Time War since the Daleks have free movement to travel in time and hunt down Time Lords (along with android duplicates of same) and in The Daleks' Master Plan they have time machines AND a Time Destructor... the clue's in the name! They also time travel in Troughton and Pertwee stories... Genesis is therefore one of the last throws of the dice for the Time Lords to prevent a complete Dalek takeover of time and space. Maybe that's why Russell Davies called it "The Last Great Time War", after all the earlier ones...
@@frankshailes3205 But chronologically, _"The Chase"_ is set thousands of years after this story. In fact, since this story chronicles the creation of the Daleks, then every Dalek story must therefore be set sometime _after_ this one. So if one argues that _Genesis of the Daleks_ was the beginning of the Time War, then *_all_* Dalek stories are part of it.
Personally, I feel this is one of those "when did a ape become a human?" sort of situations. That is, you're trying to pinpoint an exact time the war started when no such thing exists. That said, I prefer to confine "Time War" to the events between the 96 movie & _"Rose,"_ as this period is when war was formerly declared between the Time Lords and the Daleks. Anything occurring before that is pure conjecture, nothing more.
Because for every person claiming _Genesis_ kicked off the Time War, couldn't another person say that the Time War started when the inhabitants of Skaro split into two factions - the Thals and the Kaleds?
@@sixstanger00 Irrelevant when both races have time travel.
@@frankshailes3205 So what? The Daleks didn't develop time travel until thousands of years after _Genesis,_ so no matter how you look at it, all other Dalek stories *_must_* be subsequent to this one.
If the Daleks develop time travel, and then travel to their past before their own creation, that still doesn't make *_that_* story the "first" incident of the Time War.
_Genesis_ involves a Time Lord attempt to avert their creation to begin with at the moment in time when they were *_being_* created, so in all frames of reference, this is the *_first_* event.
_"The Chase"_ only occurs before _"Genesis"_ from The Doctor's frame of reference, no else's.
(1) Genesis of the Daleks is a timeless classic and considered to be one of the greatest Doctor Who stories ever and it’s pretty easy to see why. I love how it shows the effects a long, gruelling war has on two societies, not just in terms of the technological/weaponry deterioration, but also how both have become just as ruthless and bloodthirsty as the other. The war has been going on for so long that the reasons why it started in the first place have been forgotten, there are no good guys in this situation. It’s easy to see how a man like Davros rises to power in this scenario and why he creates the Daleks.
You can see Davros was once a great mind and scientist, but the years have ravaged and driven him insane. To the point that he’s willing to create genetically engineered killing machines out of his fellow Kaleds and destroy anyone who gets in his path. Even all his own people. Davros is a man who has known nothing except war his entire life and he has reached the conclusion that the war can only end, and peace can only be achieved through the total extermination of the Thals. Davros doesn’t see this as evil, he sees it as necessary to end the suffering and bloodshed. There’s more to it than just that though. The great scene where Davros and the Doctor discuss if he would be willing to release a virus that would kill all other lifeforms (it’s interesting because the Doctor is clearly equating creating the Daleks to unleashing a deadly virus) shows that to great effect. Davros would do it, which shows that he’s become power mad and feels every other lifeform in the universe is inferior and deserves to either be ruled or destroyed. His and the Daleks’ will is the law and all who oppose them will need to be crushed to preserve peace. In Davros’ mind, trying to please all sides shows weakness and will only lead to being taken advantage of. It’s either rule or be ruled. Democracy is the creed of cowards.
War has made Davros twisted and turned him into a sociopath. He’s lost the ability to feel mercy and compassion for other beings, he considers any other species and even anyone with opposing viewpoints as the enemy and he imbues the Daleks with all these traits. This ultimately leads to his downfall. The Daleks revolt and try to take control from him because of course they would. The Daleks were created to believe everything unlike them is inferior, so why should they take orders from an old cripple who needs a life support system to stay alive? In his final moments, Davros asks the Daleks to show mercy, but that’s an emotion he removed from the Daleks. It’s poetic justice that Davros’ demise (at least until he returns) comes at the hands of his own creations and because of the extreme modifications he made for them to be as ruthless as possible. It’s brilliant writing. I’d argue no other recurring villain/monster gets a better introduction than Davros. It’s almost a shame he ever returned because this initial appearance is so perfect.
His first appearance (Genesis of the Daleks) was his best one. To me it felt like he was intended to be a one-off villain originally, but they brought him back by popular demand, which is great anyway. I kind of wished they had done some plot device to bring back Klieg "The All-Powerful?" a couple more times. He was a great over the top villain. Doctor Who can get away with this stuff because of time/dimension/space travel and it's great when it plays around with it more than usual in the main story like Genesis did.
The numbers for city of death day otherwise.
@@wispa1a What?
@@Mrazmatmahmood
More people watched and reviewed city of death.
@@wispa1a Yeah, where did I say otherwise? All I said is Genesis of the Daleks is a timeless classic and one of the greatest Doctor Who stories ever. I'd say the same for City of Death too.
"Do I have the right?" - Possibly the Fourth Doctor's finest moment and demonstrates that even a family show can tackle moral quandaries and serious themes. Tom Baker himself apparently took this moment so seriously that he was almost "agonising" over the dialogue, which just goes to show why he is one of, if not the best Doctor in the history of the show.
Totally agree. Baker delivered the greatest lines ever written for Who. In my opinion, this is the most iconic scene in the whole show.
Yes, interesting that he finally decides he does have the right, and Sarah was correct all along. He keeps that attitude henceforth...
@@rnw2739 A relief to the audience? Yes, so much so that viewing figures...*checks notes* fell off a cliff after his run ended and never recovered for the remainder of the classic series.
@@rnw2739 Tom's last season had awful ratings by his standards. The best rated story had 7.5 million viewers. While all of the following season beat that, out of the rest of classic who only 4 stories managed to surpass 7.5 million, so to say they improved is hogwash.
I suppose for those of us who saw the Classic era at the time, the memory of seeing Davros for the first time made quite an impact.
I love that Big Finish decided to do an alternative universe where the Fourth Doctor decided that he does indeed have that right and the universe basically went to hell, causing the Time War to start prematurely and the events lead to his next incarnation becoming the Warrior.
Two points that makes this serial such a stand-out to me is
1) Actually having Davros believing himself that what he is doing IS morally and objectively right, and when the Doctor's hypothetical reveals to him that his true feelings are totally deranged, where some characters would have an "oh my god what have I become" moment, he instead goes "hell yeah!" and embraces it.
and 2) Whereas in the first season finale of nuWho he's faced with the consequence of all the humans on earth being collateral damage if he carries out his plan, here the only consequence of wiping them out would be to his own soul, and PERSONALLY I can't help but feel like it carries a lot more weight here.
There's a Big Finish miniseries that covers the origin of Davros, in it you find out that he's even more monstrous than he's shown here. In the story, after gaining enough power to influence the government, he institutes a mandate that all newborns must be turned over to the state in order to treat the widespread mutations that are ravaging the Kaleds. In reality, however, he's exacerbating the mutations in these infants to turn them into the first generation of Kaled mutants that we see in this story. That's right: the mutants that attack the Doctor in this story are mutated babies that were taken from their mothers shortly after their birth.
Let's not forget about his sister too.... so fucked up
The Dalek looking directly into the camera at the end....great shot.
Its been speculated that this story was the direct first strike in the Time War in the new Series
About the fourth strike really... "The Chase" was the first, and even that was in revenge for the Dalek Invasion of Earth being foiled.
@@frankshailes3205 It's the first strike in the Time War. As in, the war literally fought through time. Not merely clashes between Time Lords and Daleks here and there. None of those strike directly at the very existence of the Daleks.
You may remember that the 12th Doctor was faced with this literal situation, meeting Davros as a child, in The Magician's Apprentice.
My pet fan theory is that the Twelfth Doctor saving Davros, which in that episode led to Davros adding "mercy" to the Dalek vocabulary, ends up changing time and allows Davros to survive "Genesis" when he originally didn't
"Do I have the right", exactly the position 12 found himself in, great continuity.
One interesting facet is the contrast between the Doctor's doubts and Sarah Jane's lack of hesitation. One rather gets the feeling that if Sarah had held the wires the story would have ended differently! We need to remember that Sarah Jane would have grown up in the immediate aftermath of WWII and, even if too young to have memories of the war would have been surrounded by those who lived and fought through it.
I was born fifteen years after the end of WW2 but every adult I knew as a child had lived through the conflict. Those experiences shaped not only their own outlook but also the views of the next generation. I'd have been with Sarah Jane and acted without hesitation. Damn the paradoxes, we can only act on the knowledge we have.
Great point. Elizabeth Sladen was born in 1946.
Nothing for Harry?
He's the military man, with a doctor's oath to do no harm.
But military doctors have shot patients to prevent them falling into the hands of a murderous enemy, and he would know this.
Harry, given those two wires, would have gone into the incubator room and set off the explosives.
The Doctor and Sarah could have cried a single tear and gone on, imagining their morals to be un-tainted.
This is the story that inspired the Time War all those years later. The Forth Doctor killing it so early on.
The Wire is one of the greatest moments in Fiction, it's the Terminator from the Terminator's perspective. It's the Baby Hitler Question presented on national television for all ages. It's a performance that is not only informed by the past, but massively informs the future, the moment most informed by it, is 9's "I Made It Happen" speech, because you wonder if he thinks back to those two wires and how much he has changed.
I'm always obsessed with that final moment where Davros's hand hovers over the kill switch. Even at the cost of his own life he can't destroy the Daleks. They've gotten too big even for their creator to stop.
The problem with the killing the baby before they become evil kind of thing is this: if you killed them, they never did the evil stuff, so you never travelled back in time to kill them, so they lived to do the evil stuff, so you travelled back to kill them, so then they never did the evil stuff, so you never travelled back and so on. It creates a constant loop.
Presuming time progresses in a straight line and doesn't branch off when a decision is made. Perhaps you kill Hitler as a child and someone slightly less mad, sensible enough not to betray his allies but just as ruthless takes his place. In which case you have to go back in time again. Presuming of course that you still have the ability to travel back in time again having already changed the future you lived in once.
Timey wimey...........stuff!
@@JSkinnerish That too. Assuming it works as a paradox and not Marvel time travel.
They did that in the Pertwee story, "Day of the Daleks"... the guerillas from the future tried to avert the war that let the Daleks conquer Earth, by killing the person they thought started that war, and if they succeeded in changing the past, they would erase their own present, and never be able to travel back and stop the war.... Luckily a Time Lord was present to break the loop.
@@frankshailes3205 Yep.
I first watched this story as a 5 year old. Davros scared the cr*p out of me. Later had the story on tape cassette, LP, and later video and DVD. Classic story with some interesting moral dilemmas. Give Tom Baker as the Doctor a decent villain to go up against and he'll always give you a first class performance.
Now that we're at the end, when he revived the show in 2005, showrunner Russell T. Davies said this story was the start of the Time War
The "Do I have that right" scene is one of the best scenes in ALL of Doctor Who! It's what help cement Tom baker as one the Greatest Doctors EVER!!
One of the best Doctor Who stories of all time. Excellently written, perfect acting from Baker and Wisher, it's got some great ideas behind it.
Davros: “You will tell me the reason for every Dalek defeat.”
The Doctor: “Well, then there was this haunted house with a robot Frankenstein’s monster and a robot Dracula; oh and there was a Dalek who couldn’t do sums.”
Davros: “I’m sorry... what?”
The Doctor: “Oh, and the Daleks landed on a sailing ship and one of them fell overboard.”
Davros: “What?!”
The Doctor: “And one of them fell in a trap we made because I called it Auntie.”
Davros: “Are you taking this seriously?”
One of the best scripts ever on Doctor Who. Classic indeed.
I've always loved the parallel between the Doctor's "Do I have the right?" moment and Davros' speech about the theoretical microscopic organism. The Doctor questions the morality of destroying the Daleks while the immoral Davros would have no qualms about unleashing the organism even if it destroyed the universe. An interesting, thought provoking story that succeeds in making the Daleks menacing again and introduces an all time great villain in their creator. Plus giant man-eating clams!
That's why it's so hyped - a good story, memorable villain, interesting moral dilemma, well made, great supporting cast & first shown when Dr Who was at one of its peaks of popularity (many peoples favourite Dr & favourite companion, who nearly got her own Classic era spin off, in Sarah Jane) - also the era most fans of New Who are likely to start with due to Sarah Jane and "the best classic Doctor".
There are probably better stories in Classic Who, but not so many people have seen them, so the competition gets less hype and this story gets talked about by even more casual fan's - which then makes it one of the "recommended start" episodes for people new to Classic Who to watch - increasing the hype further.
There are several stories I think could be said to be the "best" of Classic Who, depending upon the person and their interests. If I had to make me list of those, it would include:
The Dalek's Master Plan
Power of the Daleks (usually my #1)
Evil of the Daleks
Inferno
The Daemons
Genesis of the Daleks (obviously)
City of Death
The Caves of Androzani
The Curse of Fenric
With the following very honorable mentions:
The Aztecs
Dalek Invasion of Earth
The Tomb of the Cybermen
The Enemy of the World
Web of Fear
War Games
The Silurians
Terror of the Autons
Pyramids of Mars
The Brain of Morbius
The Deadly Assassin
The Talons of Wang-Chiang (because of problematic issues, others would be on the best of list)
The Keeper of Traken
Logopolis
Kinda
Earthshock
Enlightenment
Frontios
Vengeance on Varos
Revelation of the Daleks
Trial of a Time Lord
Remembrance of the Daleks
Ghostlight
Get well soon Jess!
I'm very glad you enjoyed it. I typically don't like episodes written by Terry Nation (who does most of the Dalek episodes) but this is a contender for my favourite Classic Who story. It's a weird outlier in that way. Davros, Nyder, the moral dilemma, the whole Nazi vibe of the Kaleds and the concept of a war that's been raging for so long that the most advanced weapons have been used are ALL fantastic.
Plus, I love Sarah Jane's outfit at the end of this story, with the camo pants. I only realised when rewatching this that the Doctor found it in a locker. It's a cute moment when he hands her the trousers.
I'm about to sound like an idiot, but because everyone always just refers to him as 'creator of the Daleks' it never really clicked in my mind that Terry Nation wrote the complete scripts of the early Dalek episodes. I mean, I did know it, but in my head he was more of a creature designer than a screenwriter. Your comment just gave me a new appreciation of his work 😅
@@bobblebardsley His work on Blakes 7 is amazing too. Some of it is very reminiscent of the Hartnell story "The Daleks' Master Plan".
Thanks for an entertaining reaction! I'd like to reassure you that there are *plenty* of terrific stories yet to come in classic Who. It isn't about the jump the Quark!
Fantastic! A brilliant end to a truly classic Who serial.
Not alone the 'have I the right scene' but my personal favourite, the hypothetical 'lethal virus' scene between the Doctor and Davros. Absolutely riveting performances from Tom Baker and Michael Wisher.
Thank you so much for another great reaction Jess ☺👍
17:56 Live by the Dalek, die by the Dalek. His own perverse creations became a monster that wanted to destroy their own creator. He made them more evil than he bargained for. The Daleks in Power of the Daleks were some of the best played ones. They had a personality a lot like Davros in that one, all cunning and plotting, etc. It established that the while the Daleks are heartless like machines, they're actually pretty intelligent, which makes them even more menacing.
Best classic story in my eyes and best doctor ever. Have the right? Iconic line👏👏👏
I always thought that reluctance in the two wires scene really works because its less about whether the Doctor would be right or wrong for doing it and more about contrasting him with Davros. The latter said he'd be willing to wipe out life just because he could. The Doctor in his moment had supreme justification to take out the Daleks, with both the Time Lords and his own companions supporting the decision.. and he hesitated.
This story has been filled with various parties all determined to wipe each other out for own motivations. Thals happy at the end of the Kaleds, Kaleds designing strategies to take take out all Thals, Mutos trying to kill anyone different, and the Daleks exterminations speaking for themselves. But the Doctor? For whatever lack of humility and grand arrogance the he might might display at times, the question of wiping out an entire sentient race, (even one as fundamentally evil as the Daleks) is one he deems as being a bigger than himself.
For all his knowledge, experience, and perspective in his lifetimes, is his reasoning for entirely destroying the Daleks that different from all the other parties in this story? Is he truly the one to decide which races of beings are to live or to die? Regardless of the answer, its great character moment for the Doctor, because he's willing to ask himself the question.
Love this episode and it definitely ends on a high. I can't say anything about how fantastic the "Do I have the right?" Speech that hasn't been said
Plus Davros using democracy as a means to slaughter his enemies is effectively unnerving. Using their own morals to betray them. Sort of showing that even though it's absolutely evil he's unfortunately right.
And The Doctor threatening his life shows how flexible the Doctor's morality is.
A lesson for us all - let the wrong people take control and they use the systems of power against the people they were built to serve.
I think this was the episode fresh in RTD’s mind when making the new series
Whether it is the best story of Classic Who, everyone has to decide themselves. But it is definitely the most essential one since The War Games.
16:35- In Voyage of the Damned, Mr Copper said the same.
'Yes, I WOULD do it!' Davros pronounces, having already symbolically broken the capsule. Nothing is out of bounds. How were we to know this kind of personality would haunt us forever?
The Doctor makes the point that the existence of the Daleks will unite many worlds that would've been separate and squabbling otherwise, against the greater menace. Like now (although China seems to be siding with the menace, which says a lot about them...)
What I love about 'Genesis' is that because we know the Daleks so well by now (from the beginning of Classic Who), the story strangely feels like a historical. The dialogue and direction feel similar to the Hartnell historicals. This shouldn't be too much a spoiler, but you have more wonderful Classic Who historicals to look forward to!
Now, David Tennant's doctor with Sarah Jane in 'Stolen Earth' means a lot more.
Would you say it goes down as one of the most thought-provoking episodes of Classic Who? Terry Nation tried his best to make all the metaphors stick to the wall.
And now, after seeing this episode, does it make you think back to scenes like the exchange between Sarah Jane and Davros in "Journey's End"?
I'm 52. This is the Who I remenber from my 8-year-old days in Central New York.
Jess, you've seen Doctor 4's humorous side, and you've seen his serious side....What do you think of Tom Baker so far?...
There is so many good elements in this story. As you said the moral debate is excellently put forward, and that it is left both open and unresolved, so that like all good morality issues, the show does not push the audience either way very far. Leaving the viewer to continue that debate for themselves.
I also loved the support cast as I mentioned last week. Because they give you the feeling of fully developed characters. As you know Davros returns in NewWho, he is lucky enough that, thanks to the make-up another actor can be cast in the role and still look (more or less) identical to how he appears in this story. a changing face is each to explain with someone like say the Master, but not so easy with a character like Nyder. Which is a pity.
Another element I liked about this story is how well if fits with the cannon as established within the show so far. Little elements such as the Daleks being buried in their bunker and having to take time to dig themselves out, is a nice nod to the way they are encountered in the first Dalek story. That aspect is often pointed out in NewWho making call backs, but here is ClassicWho doing it.
All in all a good story told very well. One of the few 6 parters that really needed and used all six parts very well.
The "two strands" scene is one of the greatest moments of Doctor Who. Such a fundamental and fascinating moral dilemma that is relevant always
The very practical problem with the Baby Hitler scenario is that if you did kill him, who knows what might happen? Perhaps a Soviet Union war on Europe in the 1950s that ended in nuclear annihilation? Who knows what monsters, even more evil than themselves, the Daleks might have wiped out?
(2) This story also gives great context for why the Daleks are the way they are and why they refuse to evolve. The Daleks come from a war-ravaged world; a world where a megalomaniac genetically engineered them to be full of hate for anything remotely different and deemed it necessary for them to believe they are the supreme beings and everyone else needs to be ruled or killed. The truth is the Daleks are horribly mutated Kaleds that have had to retreat inside metal tanks because that’s the only way they can survive. These tanks give Daleks the power to kill and exact their will, but in reality, stuck inside are helpless little squids. They would be nothing without the tanks and yet they believe themselves to be perfect and stubbornly refuse to evolve and change and destroy everything else because their creator programmed them that way, so in a way, it’s not even entirely their fault! That’s the tragedy of the Daleks. Some people have said that the biggest problem with the Daleks is that they never change and that makes them predictable as villains, but that’s the whole point. The Daleks are pathetic, and the dramatic irony and tragedy comes from their compulsion to refuse to change their ways and destroy anything different. I will say though, introducing Davros definitely renewed them at this point, and they now had a face to their villainy. Someone who could go toe to toe with the Doctor in a verbal sparring, which is not really something you can do with a Dalek because of what and who they are as characters, but also because of the nature of a Dalek prop.
I also love the Doctor’s moral dilemma and all the questions it raises. The best thing about it though is that the story doesn’t give a firm answer because there isn’t one. Objectively speaking, if the Doctor did destroy the Daleks at their beginning, he would save countless people from suffering in the future. What would that make him though, what gives him the right to shape the future and kill an intelligent lifeform before it even has the chance to develop? No one man should have that much power because absolute power corrupts absolutely. Davros is the perfect example of that. As the Doctor says, some things would be better with the Daleks. Entire worlds will unite and become allies because of their fear of the Daleks, so as evil as the Daleks are, some good will come out of their existence. Nothing is black and white, all possibilities need to be considered when taking a decision like that.
With all that being said, it’s really interesting that, given the second chance, the Doctor chooses to go back to the incubation room to end the Daleks once and for all. It’s as if after he witnessed what Davros and the Daleks did to all those scientists, he immediately regretted hesitating and felt he had to go through with it. Obviously, we as viewers know something will inevitably happen again to prevent the Doctor from succeeding, but it’s still really interesting to see the Doctor so committed to destroying the Daleks because it shows that when push comes to shove, the Doctor is willing to pull the trigger and commit genocide if it means saving the lives of millions. This is an idea RTD would go on to develop in far more detail with the Time War and considering the fact that he also says this story is the first shot fired in the Time War, Genesis is probably one of the top two or three most important stories in the show’s history. In many ways this story is the focal point of Doctor Who because so many future plot threads, themes and character studies of the Doctor converge on this one story.
After failing once again, I get the sense that the Doctor thinks the destruction the Daleks will cause is inevitable and that it’s futile to fight against time. He’s content in the knowledge that some good will come out of the Daleks’ evil and ultimately reaches the conclusion that the future should be left to work itself out and that he has no right to interfere because doing so would mean going against all of his morals. The Doctor loses because he fails in his mission to either alter the Daleks to become less aggressive beings or destroy them, condemning countless billions to death, but he also wins because he refuses to become like the Daleks by forgoing his morals and exterminating defenceless Dalek embryos. The ultimate pyrrhic victory. It’s so multi layered and balanced. As all things should be. The story as a whole is just excellent and a brilliant showcase for everything Doctor Who is and can be
So condemning countless billions to death is moral? just for 1 guy to feel he has held onto an abstract purity ?
Love that such a classic was a bit of a rush re-write after the original stroy was rejected for being too similar to previous one...The writer seriously came back fighting lol.
1:19 Dravros description of the dalaks seems very similar to how the Roman Empire was formed, "the romans invade, create a wasteland and call it peace"
One great element of Genesis of the Daleks is that it ends in such a way that for the Daleks, the next "story" for them is "The Daleks." The Doctor set up his own adventure by the way he left things.
If the Doctor had averted the Daleks' creation, then the Timelords would have no reason to send him back to destroy them, as they never existed. But if he didn't go back, they would exist, so he would go back, so they wouldn't exist...paradox.
The fact the Timelords don't seem to think undoing the Daleks would mean they never sent the Doctor back implies an omniscient perspective on time, and the ability to shape it if they chose, much more power than we ever saw them wield onscreen.
It also brings in the dilemma of time travel itself. Like if you didn't actually travel through time, it sort of changes things in your decision making of whether to wipe out the daleks with the differences in awareness. You don't have the hindsight of its relative future, nor any of its guilt in knowing what the positives would have been with them in it. It sort of goes back to the dilemma that new life often comes out of a destruction. Celestial events are like this, and so are wars. Like how there is a historical pattern of there being a baby boom after a bad war. Hence where the Baby Boomer generation got its name from (the generation born right after WWII).
That closing speech from the Doctor will always be a highlight of Classic Who for me.
This is my second favourite story in all of classic Who. I think it deserves every bit of the hype it gets.
Jess this serial is even more gritty when you considered it was made as a children's show on a tiny budget and broadcast on a Saturday evening between 5 & 6pm.
@Brad1980 not really unless you want to argue in semantics.
@@eddhardy1054 actually, all of Classic Who was made by the BBC’s Drama department, and not the Children’s department. It was only ever seen by some adults as a children’s show because of the bad special effects and sometimes bad looking monsters, which was more down to lack of a decent budget than it was lack of creativity between writers and set/monster designers!
@@andrewroberts299 this is all well known stuff mate but my point still stands, it was considered a show for children and yet still dealt with subjects that a lot of adult teatime (& evening) scifi & fantasy dramas shied away from. Everytime the BBC now call it Classic Who it really boils my piss as throughout the 60s, 70s & (especially) the 80s they treated it with utter contempt. Luckily fans like me didn't care about tiny budgets and ridiculous recording schedules. All that mattered to us were engaging stories told with commitment. Something Modern Who has Sometimes neglected.
6:43 At this moment I have always wanted Harry to say 'For Fucks Sake Doctor' and grab the wires and put them together.
The classic writing of Terry Nation. I really hope one day you cover Blake’s 7 series. At times I find it can even be better then classic who. Also was made close to this time.
...and so begins the Time War. 😉
No, this episode was the first step leading to the Time War....A later episode with a later Doctor will start the actual Time War...
Baby Hitler is definitely the appropriate comparison, and the new series went there even more explicitly with Davros.
The answer has always been option C beyond the kill/don't kill binary. Take him away from his abusive family - Hitler's dad apparently was a violent brute - and put him with a decent family that will raise him to be decent.
I'm going to go off topic to begin with and enjoy watching your reviews . They are very articulate well thought out observations and you don't look bad either 😊.
Just a bonus point at the end 😊
As you're probably aware the Daleks were originally based on Nazis ideology a militaristic dictatorship. It believes it's superior to all others because of it's genetically manipulation and purity. Those who are not Daleks are exterminated or worked to death in Dalek camps.
It's brilliant to see how it all began but today it does show its age because of the effects and it is comical looking at the state of the art technology in the bunker lol.
But it is still really good to watch!
My controversial take on _Genesis_ is that Davros should have stayed dead. I think its a more fitting end that in his final moments the facade falls and Davros reveals he is no Nietzschean superman; just a very scarred and damaged product of the horrors of war.
The Doctor's "do I have the right" speech is a triumph of deeply meaningful and yet fully universalistic dialogue applicable to all cultures and all eras. When I was a kid in the '90s watching this story for the first time that speech summoned to mind Saddam Hussein and Slobodan Milosevich.
There's a Big Finish series, the Unbound Doctor of War, which explores a universe where the Doctor did commit genocide here. It goes terribly, so it seems he ultimately made the right decision.
But killing baby Hitler wouldn't do anything about baby Stalin, and Stalin might be worse, then there's baby Mao....
When does the killing end? Who knows what horrors would develop with deaths of known enemies, the unknown might be worse.
Go and watch 1 episode of THE OUTER LIMITS where time agents succeed in killing baby Hitler, you will be amazed at the 2 surprises!
Ironically, the one that might have made a huge difference was baby Lenin.
The whole basis of the Season 9 opener hinges on one scene in this story and that itself has to be a testament to its staying power. But it's true enough. How can we ever rid ourselves of corrupted people, when they have yet to be corrupted?
"Vortex travel without a capsule. Whew! That's a killer."
So...Timelords invented the Portkey. How unwizardly.
I like that this is one of the few times that the Doctor fails.
Not Doctor Who related but the "should we kill baby Hitler" question was briliantly satarized in Stephen Fry's novel Making History
So happy you enjoyed this one
Love the Dalek story
For many people this is believed to be the beginning of the Time War that Time Lords sending the Doctor back to prevent the Daleks creation is what sparks all out war because the Daleks don’t forget the Time Lords tried to prevent their creation
The Daleks built a DARDIS to hunt down the Doctor and his companions after they prevented the Dalek Invasion of Earth (the Daleks wanted to use it as a base to invade other planets) and then made a Time Destructor to conquer entire galaxies, using time machines again to hunt down the time travellers interfering with that plan. Then they were going to use time travel to infect all humanity all though history with xenophobic murderous instincts and finally , after a Time Lord wrecked their civilisation, they used time travel to invade Earth in the past and destroy its future. All before the first Tom Baker story. I'd say the Time Wars were well underway, hence the Time Lords trying to cancel the Daleks at birth.
Mark's out of ten? I watched it as a child and thought it was great! I gave it eight. This is definately a great season, I'm glad your enjoying it and hope your better soon. I wonder what the next adventure will be? 🙂👍
If you ever look into the audio-dramas from Big Finish, DEFINITELY look into 'I, Davros'. It's basically Davros's biography, charting his life from childhood into adulthood, showing how he became the beast that he is today.
Michael wisher was the best Davros
Davros is like if Stephen Hawking turned evil.
Given at the pace you react to Classic Who, this will probably be your last Classic Who Dalek story until Fall of 2023
"You are insane, Davros!"
The lesson with this story for me is that prevention is always better than cure. It's why in the story the Doctor went back to commit that genocide. It's about the greater good. Inaction based upon such a moral dilemma is like saying the annihilation of 6 million Jewish people was justified because the Geneva Convention on Human Rights came about as a result. As the Daleks were created as an allegory for the Nazis, this particular story was very poignant.
Fantastic story! It's slightly overrated (I don't think it's the best story of the entire show) but it definitely deserves the praise it gets.
It’s a great story, but it’s one of many in classic Who. It’s like the way everyone hypes Blink, but personally I prefer Human Nature/The Family of Blood from that series. But Blink is still great. There are lots of stories from this era of Who that I love, Genesis is just one of them.
While a very good story, not my favorite. My favorites are still to come. I do think Tom Baker's first seasons are the best in classic Who, and I can't wait for you to see these great stories!
Yeah, it's not my favourite either, but it's right up in the top 5 of Classic Who, in what's a pretty fluid list. Most of them are Tom's.
This was the first time viewers saw Davros. You've seen the New Who performances. What do you think of the original and have the later performers & writers lived up to Michael Wisher?
I'll keep it short. NO. Every Davros that came after was an actor in Davros make up playing Michael Wisher's character.
The funny thing is, if Davros hadn't mutated the kaleds and just put normal troops in the Mk 3 travel machines, they would've won the war.
This isn't a hate comment, I just have to mention this, It's [Dav-ross] not [Dav-rose]. I don't know if you knew you were saying his name wrong or not, it just throws me off everytime you say Davros' name wrong. : )
I've been watching your reactions now ever since your reactions to RTD's era of New who & as soon as you started reacting to Classic Who, I knew this story would only be a matter of time.
Myself & many others are glad you enjoyed this story with it's implications & questions it creates. Without giving away any spoilers, whilst this story is well known & considered by many to be the best of Classic Who, there are many more story's to come that are just as good.
I await more reactions. : )
It's a peculiar American habit to pronounce names ending in "-os" like that - e.g. kudos is pronounced as "kudowce", cosmos as "cosmowce" and Carlos as "carlowce", etc (when it should be kudoss, cosmoss, carloss, etc). I really don't know why they do this, because it's baffling from a phonetic _and_ linguistic perspective. Most, if not all, these words have a Greek or Spanish origin and Greeks, Spaniards, and nearly everyone else outside the USA pronounce the combination of "o" and "s" to rhyme with "doss", not "dose".
A Davrose by any other name would smell as sweet.
@@scottredding7357 ;)
Surprised you didn't mention Sarah's costume change. In the middle of everything going to hell around them Sarah thinks hey I like this let's see if it fits. lol The reason for the change of clothing is because the next story was filmed before this one and they had to get her into the right costume for it to make sense. As to where the Doctor found his coat and hat? Who knows lol
I suppose they were getting pretty dirty and sweaty after climbing through those ventilation shafts. Surprised Harry hasn't changed all season! And the Mutos must stink!
2:30 look very carefully at what Nyder whacks the Doctor with and you’ll see that’s no truncheon!!!
A cosh?
Coming here to ask when will She Hulk Episode 2 will come out since it didn't release yesterday?
Unfortunately she has Covid at the moment, so there will be a delay in that coming out.
@@markmckeown87 That’s too bad I didn’t check Twitter didn’t know if she updated that.
@@DarkMatterLuigi Yeah 2 days ago I think - no worries :)
Daleks don't like change and thats what makes them terrifying and unique.
Davros just wants to conquer the universe and be king in his own little world in the words of The Ninth Doctor.
Michael Wisher was superb as Davros the character was created by Terry Nation.
One of my favourute Tom Baker stories and there are many more to come.
If i was in The Doctor's situation i dont think i could do it either even though you know how things turn out.
Yeah don't get your expectations too high because if you do that it all falls apart and you lose the enjoyment of the story unfortunately 7th hour films another reaction do that alot though it's more of an examination than a reaction.
I'm really sorry people aren't listening to you, and they tell you don't want to know. Unfortunately, there are people out there who hear what you say, but they don't care and write it down anyway.
Sometimes I still think that 'Genesis...' would have been better left as a 'one and done' creation story, because it so perfectly symbolizes the dangers present in following an ideology to its inevitably conclusion. Davros is hoisted (temporarily as it turns out) by his own petard and has nobody to blame but himself. And the Doctor's sign-off - surprisingly profound for this most flippant of turns - almost makes the rest of the series after it seem unnecessary. Which is probably why it often seems to exist off in some private bubble by itself.
It definitely is a top story and classed as one of the best Dalek one's but as much as I like Daleks they don't always have the best stories. You can name this as one of the few great Dalek stories in old and new Who. Then there was the decent Dalek ones, and then there was average Dalek ones. This in the great Dalek Stories. This is a good one no doubt but is it the best ever in my opinion? To me there is better Pertwee stories. Would it make my top 10? Who knows. I'm going through the same journey.
This is my third favourite classic story and fourth favourite overall.
This episode had some good lines but next episode you'll get one of the best lines of dialog ever.
That's why it's a doctor who classer
If the Doctor had gone through with it, he would have also changed his own personal history. Just taking examples from the First Doctor. Susan never would have stayed on Earth with David. In the Dalek Masterplan Katarina never would have died. There's no telling when or even if Barbara and Ian would have ever got home because they only made it thanks to the Dalek's time machine. When he was the Second Doctor, him and Jamie never would have met Victoria.
With regards to your "HITLER analogy" there was a wonderful show called the OUTER LIMITS, I excellent episode, has time agents going back in time to kill Hitler as a baby, there are 2 TWO MAJOR twists that you won't see coming (SPOILERS) do yourself a favour, watch that one episode, and be shocked, twice!!
you wouldn't kill, you'd lock them up, like hess.
A later story has just that: Davros frozen in a cell, on a distant space station, with less and less money being spent on guarding him. Goes as well as could be expected.
get well soon , I have started drinking ....Oat milk , its really good , . What i remeber , there was two , great actors who play davros , classic , shows , Dr who, check out K9 , companion , ones . shame , K9 was taken to usa , as a carton , it flopped . SARAH JANE ADVENTERS , now thats a serires you need to watch , Yes its a child show , but like i said ....ELleizaberth was a great actrerres. love and hugs , stay safe take it easy xoxoxooxoxox
ask a question in 1975 and answer it in 2015
Kill "Hitler"?... BUT, many cultures came together and united so they could fight him... No "Hitler", no unification... Yeah. Not such a simple decision to make... One of the best Doctor Who stories of all time.