@@wearemany73 *With great opportunities and great commentary comes great puzzlement......* 40+ knots is SLOW for landing a sailplane? What's its stall speed? I would have supposed much more and it would have overrun the field! [That said, I'm more at home in a 3axis microlight - So. What would I know?] [.......... Kind of curious what you lot over on the dark side get up to I admit].
How I wished one of the club pilots had such a camera, that year he landed his own plane (Skylark or Ka-6-ish) near his house. Years later he showed the tiny park, where he had slided down full flaps, flaring exactly in time. He really was a great pilot, humble, but he could touch down totally flared on a postcard, if asked. The lawn is uphill, you see? He must have needed that slope. Well, wanna bet there are outlandings in small landing spots on video. I can recommend searching bush pilot landings in modified Piper Cubs and comparable small planes. These men can land on pebble islands in tiny rivers, slalomming between trees getting to final.
I don’t know what you do in NZ, but in the UK, most clubs put people on a field landing course before going cross-country. These normally include plenty of real approaches into fields in a motorglider, so you know what to expect and any teething problems can be sorted out by the instructor before the first attempt on your own. No matter how hard you try, I think your brain gets a bit lazy if you’ve only ever flown from one airfield, so having to assess size, slope, surface, stock, obstructions, etc. in an area you’ve never seen before is a really important part of the learning process. It’s a long time ago for me but I remember how helpful and confidence-building it was.
Agree 100% on this, having effectively self taught myself about field landings, but being a crap soaring pilot in my youth gave me a lot of practice and thankfully I was lucky a few times to learn from my mistakes- surprising that outside of Europe motorglider's are rarely used for this kind of invaluable training...........
Landing out with a 'standard pattern' only work in places with abundant excellent landout options. I fly in an area with terrible landout options, so I practice a variety of non-standard patterns at my home airport. That way I have proficiency to land in places where a 'standard pattern' is impossible. For example, landing in a narrow valley with steep hills to both sides last summer, I spiralled down and entered a long steep final at 600. I plan the landout and get into 'commit to land' position from well above normal 'pattern altitude'. Sometimes I'll find lift and climb out before I reach my 'commit to land now altitude'. I minimize the ground roll to minimize exposure to unseen hazards (ditches, hidden boulders). A minimal ground roll is something that I don't usually do when landing at an airport, though I occasionally practice 'stopping short'. I agree that people should first learn to do a 'standard pattern' consistantly, but the next step is to develop flexibility and adaptability in the pattern.
On that second one, the possibility of wires terrified me as he crossed the road. That's one of the 5 things I look for when choosing fields (and teach my students): Size, Surface, Slope, Wires, Wind (not any particular order; they're all vital). About 10 years ago I had a friend fly between two wires strung diagonally across the corner of a field. Fortunately, the wing broke the top wire AFTER it was already in the cockpit, but short of his neck! The glider was repairable and he was fine, but it was a very near thing. 10 off field landings for me in 16 years of X-C, plus several more done at airfields... and I can certainly relate to contests spent landing out the whole time!
Thanks to the pilots for sharing. I've made some outlandings myself and being honest. I don't know how high I'd turn on final. I think the decent angle (throughout the circuit) is more important. Next to that my outlandings typically start at 500m (1500ft) agl. You want to be above landable terrain. At 300m (900ft) you should have picked your paddock with a back up and have your engine running (if you have one). Now the focus is purely on the landing, check if the field is safe to land and plan the circuit. At 200m (600ft) agl, I start my circuit. This gives a lot of time to make that perfect circuit and landing. Until now, it has always given me a perfect damage-free outlanding. A good outlanding start by acknowledging on time that it's time to land safely. Fly safe, love the channel, keep it up
Drilled into me by many an instructor - minimum 350ft on final turn. No if's or but's... 350ft MINIMUM. You have the time to settle the aircraft and make any adjustments if needed for a nice stress free flare and landing. Never failed me. More like this. Best way to learn is watching other people and seeing what could be done better.
As a BGA instructor, we teach 300' minimum for a stable approach on finals. Your earliest point about landing like it's your home field is spot on. Keep the heights and process the same - you will be more likely to remember your pre landing checks 👍
80 outlandings that's quite a bit , I only made 24 in 50 years . I could not agree more with your comments : first one , a bit to low and a bit to slow, he could have retracted his airbrake just before touch down . I would give him 5/10. The second one : he was to high for the first field but he could have used more flaps and more airbrakes on base leg. Changing you field at the last minute is not a good idea . I made that mistake a long time ago , i change for a parallel field and it was sloping down but I was in a K8 . That was my second outlanding .Here we avoid green fields (pastures) because sometimes the farmers put an electric fence (single wire) in the middle or there may be old agricultural machinery hidden in the long grass
thanks PG good analysis and review. I felt Georgia could speak out what she was thinking. i kind of felt that she wasn't sure of what to do and was waiting to see what would happen. just my 2 bobs worth. i felt the pilot in the second clip didn't have his landing plan in place to start with and therefore was rushed causing last min decisions. cheers. more clips like this would be great.
The process Georgia is going through reminds me a lot of practice forced landings in powered aeroplanes. When I started I was consistently losing my paddock and land features. So I was making up a new approach every time into different paddocks. For your flight test, you have to be on final approach into a safe paddock consistently from when the power is lost. In Australia we use high key/low key, high key one field upwind, and low key parallel with the landing threshold, and we make a circuit/pattern out of that.
2nd video shows a pilot making mistakes but also correcting them real time. You have to respect that. I agree with Pureglide he overshot his chosen field and gets a D on his approach an F on gear extension, but in the end, he made the right decision and flew the glider when it counted most. Thanks for the great series.
Tim, this is excellent stuff, great analysis and emphasises the need for early field selection and flying a properly controlled circuit before the field chooses you. Will be using as an instructor resource. Thanks Stu
spoilers at 50% during the approach and use them like a power lever. more energy during the approach (potential and kinetic) so if the bottom drops out if/when the winds shear off, you can recover the lost energy by stowing the spoilers (adding power in essence) otherwise you come up short of potential and kinetic energy..
Well done to Georgia! I also completed my first outlanding in December '21 at Lake Keepit, NSW in the ASK21. Georgia's was a VERY low circuit compared with GFA guidelines here. 200ft turn onto finals does not give you any time to adjust if you suddenly notice something closer to the ground on the field, like a ditch, rock, creek or animal. I did a much higher and larger circuit. Had my paddock selected about 1700ft, went downwind around 1200, base 900 and a good long final from about 700, using half airbrakes the whole way in. I think Georgia forgot to do a flare ('flew it on') hence the sudden landing. Here we are taught anything below 2500ft you should have an outlanding paddock selected and by 1500ft commit to it. Then to be in 'landing mode' below 1000ft, near the airfield or doing your outlanding. 2nd video: Very poor paddock selection. Bad speed control. Bad circuit. FORGOT FUST CHECK!!! FLAPS, UNDERCARRIAGE, SPEED, TRIM!
Its easy to criticize, you wont use those heights inn real life under pressure on a hot day 100km from home, guarantee it. get some training in highly modified circuits. You can safely thermal down to 1000ft before starting downwind at a minimum of 700ft. Practice this at your home airfield first. a k21 is a low performance glider, but can still manage a circuit from a 400 ft winch cable break if trained well. actually going to a winch club is excellent way to improve circuits. lastly, never do landings by altimeter, you should be using the angle for circuit decisions.
....which is important to know for SAFETY : Astronauts begin their outlanding at about 60 km height, that means at 180.000 ft - - and all came home alive !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -------> think of that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Wings level by 300' minimum is a great maxim but it's not always an easy thing to achieve, especially for early x-country pilots. It is really important to remember that the altimeter is next to useless in field landing situations. The height above the ground normally needs to be estimated visually and this can be very difficult when all the normal 'home' airfield references are absent. Although a GPS height AGL can be useful if available it should go without saying that it should never be taken as 'Gospel'. If you can tell which end of a grazing sheep is which you are probably too low for a final turn! The same difficulties can apply to judging the landing space available. I have known a few guys that have managed to over-shoot or under-shoot in situations like this. The thing that can help is really good judgement and that can only be acquired by experience. I always found it useful to train students to set up circuits & approaches with the altimeter covered whilst over familiar territory and to aim to land & stop the glider within a predetermined area. I am sure some of this is stating the bleedin' obvious to many people but a reminder from time to time never hurts, especially at the start of the season!
Good commentary & advice. My scores agreed with yours. The second pilot was very fortunate. However, I was expecting a landing checklist, and a sensible checklist in the search for a good field or “paddock”.
I have put myself once in a similar situation, low final with trees separating me from the airfield, luckily with a landable field just in front of me, I improvised a "sure thing" solution, full airbrakes, nose down until I leveled off and landed safely in front of the trees, 200 m away from the airfield. I never consciously take chance when stakes are so high.
With the second landing, the tendency for novice outlanders is to crowd the field which, as we saw, botched the field and forced the landing in the farther field. In both cases the field selection was left a bit too late. As you said, it should be like a landing at the home field. The second pilot’s legs seemed very active, sometimes our ‘fight or flight’ kicks in and logic departs; jumpy legs is an indicator.
3 out of 10 generous for a gear-up landing where he doesn't appear to go through any landing checks! Perhaps he'd already checked "Gear: down and locked"? If so, perhaps he had the same experience as I once did where I checked the gear was down, but did not push home the lever to its full extent of travel - on landing, the gear came up. Turns out, it was not properly locked.
Here at Lasham Gliding Society Ltd in Hampshire UK where I fly at, any height not below 300 feet is ideal for landing on finals. Also speed is crucial, a calm day 50-55kts is perfect but on other days you'll want to increase your speed to 50-55kts.
Great Video, I agree with mostly what you said except the choice of lending field in the second video. In similar conditions you should prefer fields wich are used agricultural or where you can see traces of tractors or other farming machines. On wild fields chances are that there are holes or small trenches which you might not see from above. Also traces of machinery Show you that there are no fences, which can be deadly and are also hard to see. So I would choose the same field as he did with an other approach or the field in front of the trees. Anyway keep up the good work with those videos, they are a great enrichment for the safety of our sport and also offer a platform to start discussions on such topics!!
I like seeing the young lady demonstrate calm emotions, that's huge in my book. Fear and anxiety, in addition to allowing you to forget things and skip checklist items, it also allows your hands and feet to do things your mind has not commanded. Like I tell my friends, calm down or the monkeys are going to come out to start doing all sorts of crazy shit.
I think the problem with both of these - and indeed almost ALL outlandings - is that they started too low. We've all done it, and need to work on aborting our flight higher so we can make a safe landing.
I noticed that Georgia was fixating on the field and tending to turn without looking over the nose. It’s a habit I am working to break as my speed control goes completely to pot when I forget. It’s so easy to do and I expect I will do the same on my first field landing as I stare like a deer in the headlights at my target but, in the meantime, I consciously force myself to do proper coordinated turns given the risks of a stall. Congrats though on getting the first one under her belt and thanks for the video.
I assess fields with the mnemonic "we success" which means WESSSSSS (wind elevation size shape surface sun surroundings slope). It takes me about the length of time it takes to say the words aloud to assess a potential landing site. And I want to reinforce Tim's point about how important it is to keep looking at your chosen field as much as you are able. As you fly around it, it's appearance can alter drastically and you may have difficulty recognizing it from a different angle/altitude. This has happened to me several times and it may have happened to the pilot in the second video which explains why he had to take several risks to make his field.
I've done about 15 successful landouts in UK Can't say I look at the altimeter after the downwind leg because it's so hilly in Wales the altitude (QFE) is way different to where we take off from. Looking at the altimeter is probably a bad idea actually. Just go by what the picture looks like. My advice is get some motor glider approaches under your belt. 3 per year on your annual is not sufficient Get some extra training in if you want to keep yours or your club's glider in one piece and yourself injury free.
Yeah I should have made clearer in the video: The altitude is a tool to analyse the circuit AFTER you've flown it. While flying, you might not be aware of the ground level. We in NZ train to focus on the vertical *angle* to the aiming point when flying the circuit, so you're right, we don't look at the altimeter! Maybe that's a topic for another video... Cheers!
I've landed in a few fields, mostly in rougher terrain than these examples. The talk about right altitudes and heights for parts of the circuit feels slightly disconcerting in this context. You never know how high the field is. Keeping the field in sight once chosen and planning an approach relative to the continual view of the field is more important than target heights etc
Are you saying you can't judge roughly the height you are above a field? The 'target' heights are just a sensible guideline to give you time not to make a rushed approached - most bad landings are a result of a bad rushed final approach........
@@soaruk3697 no. I'm saying that you should be judging your height relative to the landing point by looking at the landing point and using you judgement of high or low rather than getting caught up by numbers. This was BGA training at the time and all field landing exercises were done without altimeter....
If you look carefully just as he adjusts the camera at 10.04 you can just see the top of the undercarriage lever so the gear is down. It is difficult to tell if the field he landed in was his first choice without seeing footage from much earlier. Faced with the trees on the approach to his landing field a steeper approach would have been better and would have also given more clearance over the road. I have always been wary of approaching over roads as often that is where there are cables and they can be very difficult to spot when they are hiding in hedgerows. In my book he landed with no damage and no injury, 9/10 for execution, 5/10 for artistic merit :-)
From what I could see, Georgia's problems stemmed from 2 issues. Firstly the whole circuit was started too low. I think she started about 600 ft which required a very abbreviated circuit to get to finals above 300 ft. High Key (circuit start) should be 800 ft appx. Secondly I heard the brakes being cracked before base leg was started. Even unlocking them adds drag and compromises an already low circuit. 7/10 for getting a good outcome but as an instructor I would have taken control early in that circuit and pointed the nose straight at the final turn position to enable a safe, steep approach.
I thought Georgia did an excellent job and, as you say, she set up a nice approach - though the final turn was a bit low. I noticed that the wind noise was getting less as the approach progressed which was a bit of a red flag to the speed dropping off. Ideally the circuit would have started a little higher but I think that Georgia may have thought she was a little high as I could hear the airbrakes being opened a few times during the circuit. It's better to adjust the circuit itself rather than use the airbrakes. I would have scored it a little higher but, given that they still had the trailer keys with them, a seven was about right. The circumstances for the second landout suggests that a decision was left late (especially as the wheel was left up). The nice field you pointed out could have been used if he had extended to the right to make space for a left turn to approach to it. It looks like it may have had a slight upslope which would have worked fine by extending out and then turning left on approach (though the final turn would also have been quite low). I think he was quite fortunate to have that cut field to land in beyond the trees. I'm very impressed by the number of landouts you've done. I'm no where near that in 20+ years of gliding - not that I dare go far from the airfield. I've had lots of practice in a motorglider however - though it doesn't put the same pressure on you as a proper field landing.
While the first pilot seemed to pick a site and setup only that one, I got the impression that the second pilot was continuously changing his site and adjusting for each new site!
I have found that it is better to leave the gear up in some cases to lessen damage in shorter or rough airfields. If one of my friends did that, he would still have his Schweitzer.
Agreed, although it's a slightly different thing. Height still matters, and if you want to judge if you are starting your circuit high enough, or judging your height above the ground correctly, you can look at the height you turn onto finals on your flight track after flying. Of course the angle to the aiming point is critical for actually flying the circuit. Good point though, I should have talked about that in the video.
“This one right next to the ground” is always a good idea.. Always better than the one next to the cloud. 😆 I enjoyed both landings. I liked the persons instinct on the last vid coz for many GA vids I watch up seems to be the instinctive preference.. Both look to become great pilots anyway 👍
Obviously higher than old mate who caught the Blanik wingtip on the ground during the last turn. I think obsessing over landing close to the threshold to save a long walk back is a problem, even if that sound obviously dumb.
Hello, I really love to watch your videos. I really can learn from then. What do you think about a general outlanding "Tips and Tricks" video? This would be very helpfull. Maybe with example where to land and where to not. Thanks Best Regards
Hi yeah that would be a good video to do! It's a little tricky to be specific because different places have different rules e.g. in Omarama, never land in anything except air strips because the fields have rocks in them. But in the North Island we can land in farmers fields. But the crops will be different in different places. In Australia, some crops are sharp and point, and can damage the glider! But still a hints and tips video would be a good idea!
@@PureGlide Thanks for letting me know. I didn't really think about different countrys. I just was thinking of germany. But you are right, there definately are different fields and so on in different countries. Thanks
Now I haven't been flying gliders for a long time and did not even complete my license so my vote is not really qualified, but I do believe that the second pilot was actually aiming for the field he ended up landing on instead of the one you pointed out. Depending on where you live you really just can not trust grass fields as they might just destroy the glider on lading being very bumpy so you'd rather take a field that is used for agriculture. The glide path and pattern also seem to match the approach to that field (disregarding the aiming for the tree thing)
Regarding the second video... I really do not want to say it was perfect, It was not... But the gear was down, it was only blocked by the freshly cut grass. And the pilot did not change his decision at all, this Field was his first choice. You have pointed out another Field, better from your point of view, but there was probably half a meter high Grass... And yes, I know this pilot
Thank you for clearing that up, Pavel. I did wonder if the gear was down or not. Even though the final approach was a bit scary, your friend did well with a good landing.
I think this is a great idea for a series. I find it very educational to watch others outlandings. Our national gliding association held seminars last year regarding outlandings. Not so much the way You fly the pattern etc. which can be done safely differently due to local doctrine and training, but lokal and seasonal knowledge of crops, dangerous obstacles, types of power lines, fencing etc. All of this is important for safe outlandings and varying with location and season. Where I fly we do not have the luxurious choice of spacious paddocks shown in these videos and most are on some slope so determining up slope is a vital skill set. There have been ideas about making a national database of outlanding fields. I think that is basically a good idea but there are many problems. There is no guarantee a listed field will always be landable and there are various legal issues etc. It would nevertheless be very useful to have better info than the map deciding the best course course of action when You get low over the forest... It would be good to have a way to conveniently share such local knowledge between pilots.
in the second clip did you spot the farm vehicle in the field he went over? I think that may therefore have been his first choice so he could get assistance from the farmworker - here in the uk generally you need to get permission from the landowner to bring your trailer onto their land so seeing a farm vehicle also makes it quicker to get that permission rather than hiking miles to find the owner
I learnt to fly a glider at 15 yrs of age my first flight was in a Kirby cadet I stop gliding at 40 yes of age got to expensive in now 62 .63 in two weeks
My first outlanding was 4km away from the airfield, in high grass and uphill and with backwind,after abaut 15seconds after deciding that i have to land out. Also my flight battery went out se even if i had somehow managed to fly to the airflield i would not have gnown if im gonna fly right in an whinchlaunshing plane(Klippeneck Airport in germany-hard to explain but there are pretty much two runways behind each other and i was so low i had to make my final over the other) They were pretty much no real thermals only zero sliders. The wind was pretty heavy so i got drifted away and i got very low to an point where i wasnt shure where the airport is,and to make it worse the half working flight computer said it was somewhere else than i thought.(in the end i was right) Lessons learned: 1.ALWAYS have an emergency outlanding field. Even when you can reach the airfield. 2.The wind gets way stronger with the altitude, so dont get fooled only because of an low wind speed on the ground. 3.Dont always trust your flightcomputer, because they can fail. But in the end i got unhurt to the ground , the landing and circut were pretty ok(it was pretty much an left turn and that was it) and the Discus is fine.
I prefere to open my airbrakes 50% with stabilized chosen speed after turning final. So I am able to realize as a self check how my ideal final path brings me to the aiming point or not. The sense of diving down before obstacle is to avoid the strong headwind and overfly an obstacle with a lower speed and g path to avoid a high angle of attack. Both was missing in the examples. The second final was a nonsense high speed path unnecessary close to the ground.
Very nice educational video, thanks Tim. Question: Is it ever a good idea to land with gear up? *{Turns out the gear was down, apologies to the second pilot}*
Gliders are designed to land on paddocs, their landing gear as well. Hopefully you'll choose a good field, but in the case that you chose poorly what would you rather hit the boulder/hole in the ground? the landing gear or the fuselage front with *you inside*
Yeah exactly right, you should always land gear down, unless you've really cocked it up and the only way to stop crashing into the end fence is gear up. But the risk of hurting your back is a LOT higher
its very good that Georgia makes the last turn without pulling to much although it was indeed a little low (but better than to high - a frequent beginner mistake on outlandings is to fly a too high approach and then overshoot). Maybe this is because she is used to fly in mountains where students get used to ground proximity. The deadliest mistake is spin in last turn, this is what kills more glider pilots than anything else.
the second one looks like a cowboy - even though it looks like he felt safe and confident cause you did not hear a sign of releave which seems to be easy for him like turning the camera into the right position. Does not look that safe but maybe he knows his plane pretty good and intentionally traded in altitude for speed before those trees instead of a smoother glide pass. Maybe not the landing out of the theory books but I guess he felt safe and this is a key figure in serious situations like this he might even not have recogniced as really serious. Of cause it can become an attitude of being overconfident and then might be a risk. BUT: watch a race track driver drifting in the curves you might call or recognice it dangerous even though he would smile and say 'under full control' which you can believe. The drifter is used to drift in curves like we are used to get up out of bed cause he does drift a lot more than we get out of bed.
Very true, there's two possibilities: - He deliberately chose the paddock beyond the trees from the beginning. Dived to build up speed over the trees. Completely under control. - Or he didn't, and was a bit out of control, and got a bit lucky. I suspect it's the latter...
Yeah I didn't go into the yaw string - to be fair the Ventus C does go all over the place very easily, watch any of my videos. I think it is because the tail boom is quite short.
A bit harsh don't you think? The first one actually impressed me for a student pilot. I get it this is instructional not personal the landings didn't look that bad to me. Of course, I'm not a glider pilot..so..there ya go
I'd say there should be no exact altitudes set for the pattern. Every approach is different. Speed is also depends on many factors. I had pattern speeds on Jantar 160km/h when recommended is 90 and it saved me a few times. Another thing I always wanted to add - most of the time we were taught to touch down on full wheel brakes to shorten the roll-off. And most of the time I did on Blaniks, Jantars and LAK-12. In addition, it is best to find a landing spot where you can land without a cross-wind. To make matters worse - we were always evacuated by the tow plane. Out of 200+ outlandings only once my glider was evacuated on a trailer - all others by the Wilga 35A tow plane. In Soviet Union we had quite extensive glider pilot training program that included lessons on flying in a tow plane with the pilot, choosing a landing spots from the air and most of the times landing there to verify and compare it to other landing sites. Then flying with instructor and do the outlandings. Until instructor gives you a 5 out of 5 mark - you weren't allowed to fly training distances. Outlandings with instructor included giving a proper landing instructions to a tow plane pilot and unattended take-off on a very short tow rope.
Hi yeah agreed, the heights are really just a guide for analysing your flights afterwards. Not so much to use while you're flying the circuit, as you won't know your height until you're on final approach, by then it's too late to fix it if it's way too low! We teach using vertical angle to the aiming point rather than altitudes. Cheers
@@PureGlide Yeap, the same way we were taught to judge an altitude for final. It's an angle, not the altitude. Many other aspects also play a role as obstacles on final, field length, wind etc.
UK Glider pilot here, not as experienced as you & I've certainly not taken part in any soaring events. Here's my "two pennys" worth of mediocre opinion. I'm 6:00 min in & I'd give the same score for the first pilot 7-10 for the same reasons. Her observations were 10-10 though.👍 After 10:00 I'd give the second pilot 2-10 which I found very sketchy indeed for the reasons you mentioned & I suspect he may have bumped the camera. Do you think he may have decided to leave the gear up to prevent overrunning his landing zone, which was kinda short..? 🤔 I wanna give the guy some benefit of doubt in that the whole landing was such a carchophony of foul ups I want to believe he at least did SOMETHING right but this was awful in every way. Do you still run FUSTAL through your head during your windward leg? (I do)
They both have airspeed indicators that zero out at the six o'clock position. How common is that? I don't think I have seen that (as a non pilot that just watches people fly on TH-cam)
You might have discussed this before, but in NZ is your Ventus licensed/registered any differently since it has a motor? Here in Canada the glider license is separate from the PPL but motorgliders fall under it as well
Hi no we only have 'gliders' and 'microlights' in our CAA system. Some self launching gliders are classed as microlights, but most are classed as gliders. As for licenses, you need a 'self launch' rating, but we don't have a separate rating for a sustainer engine like mine.
The tree dodging pilot maybe didn't do a pre-landing check either. If he had the gear might have been down. Despite reasonable stick and rudder skills basic airmanship (airpersonship?) seems lacking.
Georgia did quite well. There were some points that could be improved (as you pointed out), but hey, for a beginner it was great. Not perfect, but good enough. Some 2 or 3 more outlandings, and she will have got it perfectly right. Her instructor should point out the things she had done well first, then no more than 2 points she should improve. It is best for training beginners not to overload them with too many areas to focus on. The second pilot did not so well. He should not have chosen a spot to land where he had trees right in the way on the last part of final. This could have gotten dangerous. He had several other options to choose from.
About that case with the trees between you. In my club there was one time when a flight instructor actually had to use sort of same technic when landing, with one of my friends in the front seat. They hit heavy sink on turn to final, so the flight instructor took over the controls, and pushed the thing down right about just a little higher than tree-top level, just to avoid that sink and get back to the field. Is it possible that the guy did the same thing, judging by him not touching the airbrake while diving to that field in front of the trees, and variometer showing kind of really large negative?
Only constructive criticism can possibly appropriate in the second pilots case. Unfortunately you might just , get non constructive comments from some instructors who in reality shouldn’t be instructing. Good instructional video !
In New Zealand most farmers are pretty relaxed about gliders in their fields, as long as we don't leave gates open, and get permission before driving onto their property. Cheers!
In the 70 or so I’ve landed in, no. Even the couple of crops I’ve been in weren’t a problem once they saw how little damage there actually was. Generally we do more damage getting them out! So try to minimise it
How are you able to just "pick a paddock" to land on...what do property owners have to say, or is there some ordinances that permit landing on agri fields? Quite curious indeed!
It’s usually not a problem, as long as we don’t disrupt farm operations, and ask for permission to retrieve the glider. Often they have kids that want to come sit in the glider…
In most places, trespassing laws have a 'safe harbor' provision. 'Safe harbor' goes back to the era of sailing ships when you could enter a harbor without permission to seek refuge from a storm. Likewise, you can legally land any aircraft (powered or unpowered) in a field without permission. An occasional landowner is unfamiliar with the law. To avoid confrontation, I lead with an apology, express gratitude to the land owner 'thank god your field was here', and accept responsibility for any damage. If things get confrontational, I suggest 'calling the sheriff' to mediate the dispute. I followup later with a handwritten 'thank you note'. I understand that landing off airport in Japan has serious repercussions.
The decision for outlanding was too late. The important approach pattern could not be followed. Downwind, crosswind, final approach. You was very lucky.
Huh? Our landing pattern started at 600 feet. Why do you go for an extremely low and short circuit? Landing out you can do that, but at 600 feet you know you will land anyway. Why not fly a bit longer downwind?
Dad gets a 1 out of 10 for taking the keys with him!
Yip lucky it wasn't 'instructor reacts to dad instructors'!
Great concept for a series - I think outlanding videos are amazingly instructive, good or bad. Looking forward to the next one.
Awesome, thank you!
Absolutely, couldn't agree more, one thing cameras do for gliding (other than make it look awesome) is to give great learning opportunities. 👍
@@wearemany73 *With great opportunities and great commentary comes great puzzlement......*
40+ knots is SLOW for landing a sailplane?
What's its stall speed?
I would have supposed much more and it would have overrun the field!
[That said, I'm more at home in a 3axis microlight - So. What would I know?]
[.......... Kind of curious what you lot over on the dark side get up to I admit].
How I wished one of the club pilots had such a camera, that year he landed his own plane (Skylark or Ka-6-ish) near his house. Years later he showed the tiny park, where he had slided down full flaps, flaring exactly in time. He really was a great pilot, humble, but he could touch down totally flared on a postcard, if asked. The lawn is uphill, you see? He must have needed that slope. Well, wanna bet there are outlandings in small landing spots on video. I can recommend searching bush pilot landings in modified Piper Cubs and comparable small planes. These men can land on pebble islands in tiny rivers, slalomming between trees getting to final.
I don’t know what you do in NZ, but in the UK, most clubs put people on a field landing course before going cross-country. These normally include plenty of real approaches into fields in a motorglider, so you know what to expect and any teething problems can be sorted out by the instructor before the first attempt on your own. No matter how hard you try, I think your brain gets a bit lazy if you’ve only ever flown from one airfield, so having to assess size, slope, surface, stock, obstructions, etc. in an area you’ve never seen before is a really important part of the learning process.
It’s a long time ago for me but I remember how helpful and confidence-building it was.
Agree 100% on this, having effectively self taught myself about field landings, but being a crap soaring pilot in my youth gave me a lot of practice and thankfully I was lucky a few times to learn from my mistakes- surprising that outside of Europe motorglider's are rarely used for this kind of invaluable training...........
@@soaruk3697 most people arent pussies
Landing out with a 'standard pattern' only work in places with abundant excellent landout options.
I fly in an area with terrible landout options, so I practice a variety of non-standard patterns at my home airport. That way I have proficiency to land in places where a 'standard pattern' is impossible. For example, landing in a narrow valley with steep hills to both sides last summer, I spiralled down and entered a long steep final at 600. I plan the landout and get into 'commit to land' position from well above normal 'pattern altitude'. Sometimes I'll find lift and climb out before I reach my 'commit to land now altitude'. I minimize the ground roll to minimize exposure to unseen hazards (ditches, hidden boulders). A minimal ground roll is something that I don't usually do when landing at an airport, though I occasionally practice 'stopping short'.
I agree that people should first learn to do a 'standard pattern' consistantly, but the next step is to develop flexibility and adaptability in the pattern.
Yeah - that's a good take away : "If you've got trees between you and your aiming point, you're doing it wrong" !!! LOL
:)
On that second one, the possibility of wires terrified me as he crossed the road. That's one of the 5 things I look for when choosing fields (and teach my students): Size, Surface, Slope, Wires, Wind (not any particular order; they're all vital). About 10 years ago I had a friend fly between two wires strung diagonally across the corner of a field. Fortunately, the wing broke the top wire AFTER it was already in the cockpit, but short of his neck! The glider was repairable and he was fine, but it was a very near thing. 10 off field landings for me in 16 years of X-C, plus several more done at airfields... and I can certainly relate to contests spent landing out the whole time!
Yeah I feel this guy did have some luck on his side
As someone who has hit powerlines on a paraglider, it isn't ideal 😂. Avoid at all costs...
@@kelvinvanbaalen6495 Are you a superhero already? :D Buzz?
@@josefsoltes8572 call me sparky 😅 or Deadpool. Invincible.
you forgot an essential s word, stock . I use wsssss wind size surface slope stock swer( Power lines)
Thanks to the pilots for sharing. I've made some outlandings myself and being honest. I don't know how high I'd turn on final. I think the decent angle (throughout the circuit) is more important. Next to that my outlandings typically start at 500m (1500ft) agl. You want to be above landable terrain. At 300m (900ft) you should have picked your paddock with a back up and have your engine running (if you have one). Now the focus is purely on the landing, check if the field is safe to land and plan the circuit. At 200m (600ft) agl, I start my circuit. This gives a lot of time to make that perfect circuit and landing. Until now, it has always given me a perfect damage-free outlanding.
A good outlanding start by acknowledging on time that it's time to land safely.
Fly safe, love the channel, keep it up
Drilled into me by many an instructor - minimum 350ft on final turn. No if's or but's... 350ft MINIMUM. You have the time to settle the aircraft and make any adjustments if needed for a nice stress free flare and landing. Never failed me.
More like this. Best way to learn is watching other people and seeing what could be done better.
Cheers mate!
As a BGA instructor, we teach 300' minimum for a stable approach on finals. Your earliest point about landing like it's your home field is spot on. Keep the heights and process the same - you will be more likely to remember your pre landing checks 👍
Thanks Adrian, cheers!
80 outlandings that's quite a bit , I only made 24 in 50 years . I could not agree more with your comments : first one , a bit to low and a bit to slow, he could have retracted his airbrake just before touch down . I would give him 5/10. The second one : he was to high for the first field but he could have used more flaps and more airbrakes on base leg. Changing you field at the last minute is not a good idea . I made that mistake a long time ago , i change for a parallel field and it was sloping down but I was in a K8 . That was my second outlanding .Here we avoid green fields (pastures) because sometimes the farmers put an electric fence (single wire) in the middle or there may be old agricultural machinery hidden in the long grass
Excellent video Tim. I couldn’t agree more with your statement about planning an out landing as closely as possible to a landing at the home field.
thanks PG good analysis and review. I felt Georgia could speak out what she was thinking. i kind of felt that she wasn't sure of what to do and was waiting to see what would happen. just my 2 bobs worth. i felt the pilot in the second clip didn't have his landing plan in place to start with and therefore was rushed causing last min decisions. cheers. more clips like this would be great.
The process Georgia is going through reminds me a lot of practice forced landings in powered aeroplanes. When I started I was consistently losing my paddock and land features. So I was making up a new approach every time into different paddocks. For your flight test, you have to be on final approach into a safe paddock consistently from when the power is lost. In Australia we use high key/low key, high key one field upwind, and low key parallel with the landing threshold, and we make a circuit/pattern out of that.
Yip sounds about right here too!
Excellent, Tim! I agree with your assessment. The second one was quite scary. Kudos to the pilot for letting you use it! It's very instructive.
Thanks! Note the pilot of the second video wasn’t aware I was making this video, his original link is in the description.
2nd video shows a pilot making mistakes but also correcting them real time. You have to respect that. I agree with Pureglide he overshot his chosen field and gets a D on his approach an F on gear extension, but in the end, he made the right decision and flew the glider when it counted most. Thanks for the great series.
Yeah agreed, cheers!
As soon as you take the landing decision, put the gear down and do your checks @ checkpoint.
Tim, this is excellent stuff, great analysis and emphasises the need for early field selection and flying a properly controlled circuit before the field chooses you. Will be using as an instructor resource. Thanks Stu
spoilers at 50% during the approach and use them like a power lever. more energy during the approach (potential and kinetic) so if the bottom drops out if/when the winds shear off, you can recover the lost energy by stowing the spoilers (adding power in essence) otherwise you come up short of potential and kinetic energy..
I suspect #2 got distracted by the camera, which is why he went towards trees. Good for him to share this though.
Maybe, although that only takes a brief second to alter the camera. Hard to tell
I was like ooh thats a good ground roll. Then you said he left his gear up and I was like oooooooooooh 😮
Well done to Georgia! I also completed my first outlanding in December '21 at Lake Keepit, NSW in the ASK21. Georgia's was a VERY low circuit compared with GFA guidelines here. 200ft turn onto finals does not give you any time to adjust if you suddenly notice something closer to the ground on the field, like a ditch, rock, creek or animal. I did a much higher and larger circuit. Had my paddock selected about 1700ft, went downwind around 1200, base 900 and a good long final from about 700, using half airbrakes the whole way in. I think Georgia forgot to do a flare ('flew it on') hence the sudden landing. Here we are taught anything below 2500ft you should have an outlanding paddock selected and by 1500ft commit to it. Then to be in 'landing mode' below 1000ft, near the airfield or doing your outlanding. 2nd video: Very poor paddock selection. Bad speed control. Bad circuit. FORGOT FUST CHECK!!! FLAPS, UNDERCARRIAGE, SPEED, TRIM!
You'll be pleased to know in her solo outlandings I've seen since this video, she is much higher! Cheers
Its easy to criticize, you wont use those heights inn real life under pressure on a hot day 100km from home, guarantee it. get some training in highly modified circuits. You can safely thermal down to 1000ft before starting downwind at a minimum of 700ft. Practice this at your home airfield first.
a k21 is a low performance glider, but can still manage a circuit from a 400 ft winch cable break if trained well. actually going to a winch club is excellent way to improve circuits. lastly, never do landings by altimeter, you should be using the angle for circuit decisions.
....which is important to know for SAFETY : Astronauts begin their outlanding at about 60 km height, that means at 180.000 ft -
- and all came home alive !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -------> think of that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Wings level by 300' minimum is a great maxim but it's not always an easy thing to achieve, especially for early x-country pilots. It is really important to remember that the altimeter is next to useless in field landing situations. The height above the ground normally needs to be estimated visually and this can be very difficult when all the normal 'home' airfield references are absent. Although a GPS height AGL can be useful if available it should go without saying that it should never be taken as 'Gospel'. If you can tell which end of a grazing sheep is which you are probably too low for a final turn! The same difficulties can apply to judging the landing space available. I have known a few guys that have managed to over-shoot or under-shoot in situations like this. The thing that can help is really good judgement and that can only be acquired by experience. I always found it useful to train students to set up circuits & approaches with the altimeter covered whilst over familiar territory and to aim to land & stop the glider within a predetermined area. I am sure some of this is stating the bleedin' obvious to many people but a reminder from time to time never hurts, especially at the start of the season!
Good commentary & advice.
My scores agreed with yours. The second pilot was very fortunate.
However, I was expecting a landing checklist, and a sensible checklist in the search for a good field or “paddock”.
I'm learning to fly, and I've gotten hooked after the matamata youth camp
Nice video your comments are spot on, shes a nice smooth flyer.
I have put myself once in a similar situation, low final with trees separating me from the airfield, luckily with a landable field just in front of me, I improvised a "sure thing" solution, full airbrakes, nose down until I leveled off and landed safely in front of the trees, 200 m away from the airfield. I never consciously take chance when stakes are so high.
With the second landing, the tendency for novice outlanders is to crowd the field which, as we saw, botched the field and forced the landing in the farther field. In both cases the field selection was left a bit too late. As you said, it should be like a landing at the home field. The second pilot’s legs seemed very active, sometimes our ‘fight or flight’ kicks in and logic departs; jumpy legs is an indicator.
3 out of 10 generous for a gear-up landing where he doesn't appear to go through any landing checks! Perhaps he'd already checked "Gear: down and locked"? If so, perhaps he had the same experience as I once did where I checked the gear was down, but did not push home the lever to its full extent of travel - on landing, the gear came up. Turns out, it was not properly locked.
Here at Lasham Gliding Society Ltd in Hampshire UK where I fly at, any height not below 300 feet is ideal for landing on finals. Also speed is crucial, a calm day 50-55kts is perfect but on other days you'll want to increase your speed to 50-55kts.
Great Video, I agree with mostly what you said except the choice of lending field in the second video. In similar conditions you should prefer fields wich are used agricultural or where you can see traces of tractors or other farming machines. On wild fields chances are that there are holes or small trenches which you might not see from above. Also traces of machinery Show you that there are no fences, which can be deadly and are also hard to see. So I would choose the same field as he did with an other approach or the field in front of the trees.
Anyway keep up the good work with those videos, they are a great enrichment for the safety of our sport and also offer a platform to start discussions on such topics!!
I like seeing the young lady demonstrate calm emotions, that's huge in my book. Fear and anxiety, in addition to allowing you to forget things and skip checklist items, it also allows your hands and feet to do things your mind has not commanded. Like I tell my friends, calm down or the monkeys are going to come out to start doing all sorts of crazy shit.
I think the problem with both of these - and indeed almost ALL outlandings - is that they started too low. We've all done it, and need to work on aborting our flight higher so we can make a safe landing.
Good lessons in here for fixed wing pilots too, thanks for sharing
You bet, cheers!
Interesting vid!
Thanks for another great upload, this channel is awesome!
Thank you!
We should see the whole video of the second landing (previus to the pattern and landing). It is really scary and another lesson could be taught.
The link to the original video of that is in the description
@@PureGlide It´s true, sorry
I noticed that Georgia was fixating on the field and tending to turn without looking over the nose. It’s a habit I am working to break as my speed control goes completely to pot when I forget. It’s so easy to do and I expect I will do the same on my first field landing as I stare like a deer in the headlights at my target but, in the meantime, I consciously force myself to do proper coordinated turns given the risks of a stall. Congrats though on getting the first one under her belt and thanks for the video.
I assess fields with the mnemonic "we success" which means WESSSSSS (wind elevation size shape surface sun surroundings slope). It takes me about the length of time it takes to say the words aloud to assess a potential landing site. And I want to reinforce Tim's point about how important it is to keep looking at your chosen field as much as you are able. As you fly around it, it's appearance can alter drastically and you may have difficulty recognizing it from a different angle/altitude. This has happened to me several times and it may have happened to the pilot in the second video which explains why he had to take several risks to make his field.
I've done about 15 successful landouts in UK
Can't say I look at the altimeter after the downwind leg because it's so hilly in Wales the altitude (QFE) is way different to where we take off from.
Looking at the altimeter is probably a bad idea actually.
Just go by what the picture looks like.
My advice is get some motor glider approaches under your belt.
3 per year on your annual is not sufficient
Get some extra training in if you want to keep yours or your club's glider in one piece and yourself injury free.
Yeah I should have made clearer in the video: The altitude is a tool to analyse the circuit AFTER you've flown it. While flying, you might not be aware of the ground level. We in NZ train to focus on the vertical *angle* to the aiming point when flying the circuit, so you're right, we don't look at the altimeter!
Maybe that's a topic for another video...
Cheers!
I've landed in a few fields, mostly in rougher terrain than these examples. The talk about right altitudes and heights for parts of the circuit feels slightly disconcerting in this context. You never know how high the field is. Keeping the field in sight once chosen and planning an approach relative to the continual view of the field is more important than target heights etc
Are you saying you can't judge roughly the height you are above a field? The 'target' heights are just a sensible guideline to give you time not to make a rushed approached - most bad landings are a result of a bad rushed final approach........
@@soaruk3697 no. I'm saying that you should be judging your height relative to the landing point by looking at the landing point and using you judgement of high or low rather than getting caught up by numbers. This was BGA training at the time and all field landing exercises were done without altimeter....
I enjoy your content. I'm a 23 years paragliding pilot. I would love your sport more if I had money.
Hey thanks for watching, yeah you’ll have to try it sometime!
If you look carefully just as he adjusts the camera at 10.04 you can just see the top of the undercarriage lever so the gear is down. It is difficult to tell if the field he landed in was his first choice without seeing footage from much earlier. Faced with the trees on the approach to his landing field a steeper approach would have been better and would have also given more clearance over the road. I have always been wary of approaching over roads as often that is where there are cables and they can be very difficult to spot when they are hiding in hedgerows.
In my book he landed with no damage and no injury, 9/10 for execution, 5/10 for artistic merit :-)
That is good about the gear, it must have been deeper grass than it looks in the video
From what I could see, Georgia's problems stemmed from 2 issues. Firstly the whole circuit was started too low. I think she started about 600 ft which required a very abbreviated circuit to get to finals above 300 ft. High Key (circuit start) should be 800 ft appx. Secondly I heard the brakes being cracked before base leg was started. Even unlocking them adds drag and compromises an already low circuit. 7/10 for getting a good outcome but as an instructor I would have taken control early in that circuit and pointed the nose straight at the final turn position to enable a safe, steep approach.
Thanks yes agreed! Her later solo landouts have been higher than that, I may feature one next time. Cheers!
Enjoyed the video thank you. Good point about the camera adjustment!
Thanks!
I thought Georgia did an excellent job and, as you say, she set up a nice approach - though the final turn was a bit low. I noticed that the wind noise was getting less as the approach progressed which was a bit of a red flag to the speed dropping off. Ideally the circuit would have started a little higher but I think that Georgia may have thought she was a little high as I could hear the airbrakes being opened a few times during the circuit. It's better to adjust the circuit itself rather than use the airbrakes. I would have scored it a little higher but, given that they still had the trailer keys with them, a seven was about right.
The circumstances for the second landout suggests that a decision was left late (especially as the wheel was left up). The nice field you pointed out could have been used if he had extended to the right to make space for a left turn to approach to it. It looks like it may have had a slight upslope which would have worked fine by extending out and then turning left on approach (though the final turn would also have been quite low). I think he was quite fortunate to have that cut field to land in beyond the trees.
I'm very impressed by the number of landouts you've done. I'm no where near that in 20+ years of gliding - not that I dare go far from the airfield. I've had lots of practice in a motorglider however - though it doesn't put the same pressure on you as a proper field landing.
While the first pilot seemed to pick a site and setup only that one, I got the impression that the second pilot was continuously changing his site and adjusting for each new site!
Yeah although it’s hard to tell just from the video, but I suspect you are right
Good video. I love your positive attitude. Very good indeed.
I appreciate that!
Did you notice the yaw string? Always on the wrong side.
I have found that it is better to leave the gear up in some cases to lessen damage in shorter or rough airfields. If one of my friends did that, he would still have his Schweitzer.
Yeah it's certainly worth considering if you're desperate!
Hi Mechanic, that is why I drive my car only on the steel / Aluminium rims : " I save money, - tyres are expensive ! " ....----> oh man !
@@helmutpohl2762 I think you missed the point. Doing this can at least make the sailplane repairable rather than not.
Georgia's effort 7/10
Georgia's Dad 1/10
🔑👎😆
its not about altitude its about angles, i never use an altimeter when landing, its the way I was trained.
Agreed, although it's a slightly different thing. Height still matters, and if you want to judge if you are starting your circuit high enough, or judging your height above the ground correctly, you can look at the height you turn onto finals on your flight track after flying.
Of course the angle to the aiming point is critical for actually flying the circuit. Good point though, I should have talked about that in the video.
“This one right next to the ground” is always a good idea.. Always better than the one next to the cloud. 😆 I enjoyed both landings. I liked the persons instinct on the last vid coz for many GA vids I watch up seems to be the instinctive preference.. Both look to become great pilots anyway 👍
Obviously higher than old mate who caught the Blanik wingtip on the ground during the last turn. I think obsessing over landing close to the threshold to save a long walk back is a problem, even if that sound obviously dumb.
That kiwi accent haha. God bless you.
😁
Good stuff thanks Tim
Hello,
I really love to watch your videos. I really can learn from then. What do you think about a general outlanding "Tips and Tricks" video? This would be very helpfull. Maybe with example where to land and where to not.
Thanks
Best Regards
Hi yeah that would be a good video to do! It's a little tricky to be specific because different places have different rules e.g. in Omarama, never land in anything except air strips because the fields have rocks in them. But in the North Island we can land in farmers fields. But the crops will be different in different places. In Australia, some crops are sharp and point, and can damage the glider!
But still a hints and tips video would be a good idea!
@@PureGlide Thanks for letting me know. I didn't really think about different countrys. I just was thinking of germany. But you are right, there definately are different fields and so on in different countries. Thanks
Now I haven't been flying gliders for a long time and did not even complete my license so my vote is not really qualified, but I do believe that the second pilot was actually aiming for the field he ended up landing on instead of the one you pointed out. Depending on where you live you really just can not trust grass fields as they might just destroy the glider on lading being very bumpy so you'd rather take a field that is used for agriculture. The glide path and pattern also seem to match the approach to that field (disregarding the aiming for the tree thing)
Yeah certainly hope so! Cheers
Regarding the second video... I really do not want to say it was perfect, It was not... But the gear was down, it was only blocked by the freshly cut grass. And the pilot did not change his decision at all, this Field was his first choice. You have pointed out another Field, better from your point of view, but there was probably half a meter high Grass... And yes, I know this pilot
Thanks for the comments! That is good to hear
Thank you for clearing that up, Pavel. I did wonder if the gear was down or not.
Even though the final approach was a bit scary, your friend did well with a good landing.
I think this is a great idea for a series. I find it very educational to watch others outlandings. Our national gliding association held seminars last year regarding outlandings. Not so much the way You fly the pattern etc. which can be done safely differently due to local doctrine and training, but lokal and seasonal knowledge of crops, dangerous obstacles, types of power lines, fencing etc. All of this is important for safe outlandings and varying with location and season. Where I fly we do not have the luxurious choice of spacious paddocks shown in these videos and most are on some slope so determining up slope is a vital skill set. There have been ideas about making a national database of outlanding fields. I think that is basically a good idea but there are many problems. There is no guarantee a listed field will always be landable and there are various legal issues etc. It would nevertheless be very useful to have better info than the map deciding the best course course of action when You get low over the forest... It would be good to have a way to conveniently share such local knowledge between pilots.
in the second clip did you spot the farm vehicle in the field he went over? I think that may therefore have been his first choice so he could get assistance from the farmworker - here in the uk generally you need to get permission from the landowner to bring your trailer onto their land so seeing a farm vehicle also makes it quicker to get that permission rather than hiking miles to find the owner
Yeah I wouldn't let the tractor influence my decisions either way. You can figure that out once on the ground safely :)
I learnt to fly a glider at 15 yrs of age my first flight was in a Kirby cadet I stop gliding at 40 yes of age got to expensive in now 62 .63 in two weeks
I was taught to turn base to final at about 300-400 feet above ground.
Cheers
My first outlanding was 4km away from the airfield, in high grass and uphill and with backwind,after abaut 15seconds after deciding that i have to land out. Also my flight battery went out se even if i had somehow managed to fly to the airflield i would not have gnown if im gonna fly right in an whinchlaunshing plane(Klippeneck Airport in germany-hard to explain but there are pretty much two runways behind each other and i was so low i had to make my final over the other) They were pretty much no real thermals only zero sliders. The wind was pretty heavy so i got drifted away and i got very low to an point where i wasnt shure where the airport is,and to make it worse the half working flight computer said it was somewhere else than i thought.(in the end i was right) Lessons learned: 1.ALWAYS have an emergency outlanding field. Even when you can reach the airfield. 2.The wind gets way stronger with the altitude, so dont get fooled only because of an low wind speed on the ground. 3.Dont always trust your flightcomputer, because they can fail. But in the end i got unhurt to the ground , the landing and circut were pretty ok(it was pretty much an left turn and that was it) and the Discus is fine.
I was taught a more aggressive turn onto final
Yeah agreed, a good reasonably steep turn (45 degrees ish) is a good idea, as the chance of trying to rudder it around the turn is less!
I prefere to open my airbrakes 50% with stabilized chosen speed after turning final. So I am able to realize as a self check how my ideal final path brings me to the aiming point or not.
The sense of diving down before obstacle is to avoid the strong headwind and overfly an obstacle with a lower speed and g path to avoid a high angle of attack.
Both was missing in the examples. The second final was a nonsense high speed path unnecessary close to the ground.
Without watching the altimeter i have learned that we are often lower than we think..
Yes true!
Finals checklist - Camera Flap Gear Airspeed Trim Aimpoint Camera !
Haha
Next time we come back to NZ (my original home) I’d love to come for a fly with you.
Very nice educational video, thanks Tim.
Question: Is it ever a good idea to land with gear up?
*{Turns out the gear was down, apologies to the second pilot}*
Gliders are designed to land on paddocs, their landing gear as well.
Hopefully you'll choose a good field, but in the case that you chose poorly what would you rather hit the boulder/hole in the ground? the landing gear or the fuselage front with *you inside*
@@ramiveiberman3182 I agree, I would rather damage the glider than suffer a back injury
Yeah exactly right, you should always land gear down, unless you've really cocked it up and the only way to stop crashing into the end fence is gear up. But the risk of hurting your back is a LOT higher
@@PureGlide Thanks Guys, that does make sense.
first one, make sure you look forward when doin your last turns to make sure you're not sliding. and a better round out but that's nitpicking
Excellent video. Would like to see more of those. Off subject, what affect is Tonga having on you guys?
Thanks mate! No effect as such from Tonga
@@PureGlide Glad to hear that about Tonga.
its very good that Georgia makes the last turn without pulling to much although it was indeed a little low (but better than to high - a frequent beginner mistake on outlandings is to fly a too high approach and then overshoot). Maybe this is because she is used to fly in mountains where students get used to ground proximity. The deadliest mistake is spin in last turn, this is what kills more glider pilots than anything else.
Well known, no risk training paddock used by Auckland Gliding Club for years, Georgia's Dad has probably been there before
Yeah looked like a great paddock!
the second one looks like a cowboy - even though it looks like he felt safe and confident cause you did not hear a sign of releave which seems to be easy for him like turning the camera into the right position.
Does not look that safe but maybe he knows his plane pretty good and intentionally traded in altitude for speed before those trees instead of a smoother glide pass.
Maybe not the landing out of the theory books but I guess he felt safe and this is a key figure in serious situations like this he might even not have recogniced as really serious. Of cause it can become an attitude of being overconfident and then might be a risk.
BUT: watch a race track driver drifting in the curves
you might call or recognice it dangerous even though he would smile and say 'under full control' which you can believe.
The drifter is used to drift in curves like we are used to get up out of bed cause he does drift a lot more than we get out of bed.
Very true, there's two possibilities:
- He deliberately chose the paddock beyond the trees from the beginning. Dived to build up speed over the trees. Completely under control.
- Or he didn't, and was a bit out of control, and got a bit lucky.
I suspect it's the latter...
@@PureGlide the clue to this is that he was too rattled to remember to put the gear down
Look at the yaw string position in the final turn of the second field landing!
Yeah I didn't go into the yaw string - to be fair the Ventus C does go all over the place very easily, watch any of my videos. I think it is because the tail boom is quite short.
Was that a no-brake approach then, Georgia's?
Not quite that bad I'd suggest :)
A bit harsh don't you think? The first one actually impressed me for a student pilot. I get it this is instructional not personal the landings didn't look that bad to me. Of course, I'm not a glider pilot..so..there ya go
The first one was pretty good, as I said! Just needed to be a bit higher. That's not too harsh is it?! Cheers :)
@@PureGlide No not at all! Perhaps my tone came across differently than intended..lol. I was attempting humor😂
I'd say there should be no exact altitudes set for the pattern. Every approach is different. Speed is also depends on many factors.
I had pattern speeds on Jantar 160km/h when recommended is 90 and it saved me a few times.
Another thing I always wanted to add - most of the time we were taught to touch down on full wheel brakes to shorten the roll-off. And most of the time I did on Blaniks, Jantars and LAK-12.
In addition, it is best to find a landing spot where you can land without a cross-wind.
To make matters worse - we were always evacuated by the tow plane. Out of 200+ outlandings only once my glider was evacuated on a trailer - all others by the Wilga 35A tow plane.
In Soviet Union we had quite extensive glider pilot training program that included lessons on flying in a tow plane with the pilot, choosing a landing spots from the air and most of the times landing there to verify and compare it to other landing sites.
Then flying with instructor and do the outlandings. Until instructor gives you a 5 out of 5 mark - you weren't allowed to fly training distances.
Outlandings with instructor included giving a proper landing instructions to a tow plane pilot and unattended take-off on a very short tow rope.
Hi yeah agreed, the heights are really just a guide for analysing your flights afterwards. Not so much to use while you're flying the circuit, as you won't know your height until you're on final approach, by then it's too late to fix it if it's way too low! We teach using vertical angle to the aiming point rather than altitudes. Cheers
@@PureGlide Yeap, the same way we were taught to judge an altitude for final. It's an angle, not the altitude.
Many other aspects also play a role as obstacles on final, field length, wind etc.
Ah WS! I went and collected her from a paddock in December. Did you used to fly that ship?
Yes! I flew it in the world champs at Benalla a number of years ago now :)
@@PureGlide Cool! 2017 I imagine then :)
I get the impression that glider pilots need as much farming experience as they do flying experience.
Very true!
I like your channel, keep it up!
UK Glider pilot here, not as experienced as you & I've certainly not taken part in any soaring events. Here's my "two pennys" worth of mediocre opinion. I'm 6:00 min in & I'd give the same score for the first pilot 7-10 for the same reasons. Her observations were 10-10 though.👍
After 10:00 I'd give the second pilot 2-10 which I found very sketchy indeed for the reasons you mentioned & I suspect he may have bumped the camera. Do you think he may have decided to leave the gear up to prevent overrunning his landing zone, which was kinda short..? 🤔 I wanna give the guy some benefit of doubt in that the whole landing was such a carchophony of foul ups I want to believe he at least did SOMETHING right but this was awful in every way. Do you still run FUSTAL through your head during your windward leg? (I do)
They both have airspeed indicators that zero out at the six o'clock position. How common is that? I don't think I have seen that (as a non pilot that just watches people fly on TH-cam)
Not sure, you can't get them in various configurations based on preference or country requirements. We see a mix of them in New Zealand.
You might have discussed this before, but in NZ is your Ventus licensed/registered any differently since it has a motor? Here in Canada the glider license is separate from the PPL but motorgliders fall under it as well
Hi no we only have 'gliders' and 'microlights' in our CAA system. Some self launching gliders are classed as microlights, but most are classed as gliders. As for licenses, you need a 'self launch' rating, but we don't have a separate rating for a sustainer engine like mine.
here in the states, we call paddocks', fields
Yip you sure do :) We also call them fields or paddocks, it's interchangeable.
The tree dodging pilot maybe didn't do a pre-landing check either. If he had the gear might have been down. Despite reasonable stick and rudder skills basic airmanship (airpersonship?) seems lacking.
Yeah agreed
Georgia did quite well. There were some points that could be improved (as you pointed out), but hey, for a beginner it was great. Not perfect, but good enough. Some 2 or 3 more outlandings, and she will have got it perfectly right. Her instructor should point out the things she had done well first, then no more than 2 points she should improve. It is best for training beginners not to overload them with too many areas to focus on. The second pilot did not so well. He should not have chosen a spot to land where he had trees right in the way on the last part of final. This could have gotten dangerous. He had several other options to choose from.
"As a general guideline"...lol.
😂
Another landing to analyze this time in the Austrian Alps. th-cam.com/video/qkXpJcb3wjM/w-d-xo.html
Yeah that's a good one eh! Cheers
Georgia 7/10. Dad 2/10 for having the keys to the recovery vehicle in his pocket. Could have gotten a lower score if he lost the keys entirely, lol!
True could have been worse!!
About that case with the trees between you. In my club there was one time when a flight instructor actually had to use sort of same technic when landing, with one of my friends in the front seat. They hit heavy sink on turn to final, so the flight instructor took over the controls, and pushed the thing down right about just a little higher than tree-top level, just to avoid that sink and get back to the field. Is it possible that the guy did the same thing, judging by him not touching the airbrake while diving to that field in front of the trees, and variometer showing kind of really large negative?
Was the landing gear up intentional? And how bad is it for the glider?
I doubt it! Usually not too bad when landing on grass, in NZ it requires an inspection, but usually does no damage. Cheers!
Only constructive criticism can possibly appropriate in the second pilots case. Unfortunately you might just , get non constructive comments from some instructors who in reality shouldn’t be instructing. Good instructional video !
Thanks Julian, most comments and feedback are usually pretty positive and constructive on this channel thankfully!
You tend to roll less with the gear up. :)
True, a possible option if you make a real mistake with your paddock selection!
What is typically the attitude of land owners to these landings?
In New Zealand most farmers are pretty relaxed about gliders in their fields, as long as we don't leave gates open, and get permission before driving onto their property. Cheers!
I’m wondering how often there are confrontations between pilots making out landings and the landowners?
Very rarely, farmers around here are very understanding and we work hard to keep on their good side!
....especially when killing a dozen cows and stopping in the kitchen of the farmhouse ......------> oh man !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its not like you guys can just add brakes. But gliding forever can be a big problem.
We do have air brakes that help get us down
Quick question bruv,
Do cockies get miffed smudging their paddocks up? 🤔
In the 70 or so I’ve landed in, no. Even the couple of crops I’ve been in weren’t a problem once they saw how little damage there actually was. Generally we do more damage getting them out! So try to minimise it
@@PureGlide
-love yer work!
😎👍
How are you able to just "pick a paddock" to land on...what do property owners have to say, or is there some ordinances that permit landing on agri fields? Quite curious indeed!
Yeah we just pick a paddock!
It’s usually not a problem, as long as we don’t disrupt farm operations, and ask for permission to retrieve the glider. Often they have kids that want to come sit in the glider…
In most places, trespassing laws have a 'safe harbor' provision. 'Safe harbor' goes back to the era of sailing ships when you could enter a harbor without permission to seek refuge from a storm. Likewise, you can legally land any aircraft (powered or unpowered) in a field without permission.
An occasional landowner is unfamiliar with the law. To avoid confrontation, I lead with an apology, express gratitude to the land owner 'thank god your field was here', and accept responsibility for any damage. If things get confrontational, I suggest 'calling the sheriff' to mediate the dispute. I followup later with a handwritten 'thank you note'.
I understand that landing off airport in Japan has serious repercussions.
The decision for outlanding was too late. The important approach pattern could not be followed. Downwind, crosswind, final approach. You was very lucky.
Huh? Our landing pattern started at 600 feet. Why do you go for an extremely low and short circuit? Landing out you can do that, but at 600 feet you know you will land anyway. Why not fly a bit longer downwind?