Speaking of Treasury Editions, you gotta do an episode on Captain America's Bicentennial Battles, with the first chapter being Kirby inked by Barry Windsor-Smith!
Fellas, thanks so much for covering this book, I've loved it since I was a kid but it's in storage and I haven't witnessed it in years. So great to see those pages again.
For those that cannot find or afford the Fireside printing, it was reprinted in comicbook size with a card stock cover and differnt cover illustration in1997. It isn't easy to find, but usually much cheaper when you come across it.
I have that reprint of the Surfer graphic novel.I bought it at a comic shop in 97 or 98.My best friend had the original one,so I was happy to finally get a copy of my own.
The Copyright was a legal maneuver because the whole project was about providing a plot for a movie, and by copyrighting this graphic novel, Stan and Jack were trying to secure a piece of the film. Lee Kramer secured the rights to the Surfer, but not the FF. He also wanted a role for his girlfriend, Olivia-Newton John. This is why the story is basically a re-telling of The Galactus Trilogy, omitting the FF, and why the character Ardina is introduced.
I had actually read this when I was 10 or 11, and didn't think much about the exclusion of the Fantastic Four that much until a lot later. I am very happy to see you feature this now almost two decades later. :)
I am still absolutely amazed that the animated series they made from the surfer really captured the Kirby comic look perfectly. Always though his work was too detailed to ever be animated but they did a good job.
I watched the animated series on Disney Plus earlier this year and i also was surprised how the producers animators captured the Kirby look really well. An underrated and unfortunately shortlived series.
I've watched it a few times on Disney+ now, & it's amazing 😍 I just love it. I remember seeing it on TV when I was in my late teens or early 20s & thinking, goddam that's awesome, but you know it was different back then. There was no "on demand" or digital streaming, you just caught whatever was "on TV" at the moment & if you liked it you tried to find out when you could see it again 😎
@@Matthew.E.Kelly. , i need to rewatch the series. It seemed the producers were trying to setup a story for following seasons. I got a true sense of a cosmic odyssey when i watched it. I think it's more interesting story than the original run of comics by Stan Lee and John Buscema.
Never knew this was so great. Just figured it was yet another reprint book,, maybe with the whole story arc and some other appearance tossed in, so I dont think I ever even bothered to look since I used to own the original issues and had reread them who knows how many times. At first this struck me as odd, seeing it was a FF comic without the FF. But as you kept looking at it, it struck me as being almost one of Kirby's Silver Age, pre-FF, "monster stories" given enough room to be epic. I really wish he'd been allowed to do some more like that.
Thanks for another great vid, fellas!There’s a splash in this comic where Galactus is on the moon and is surveying the Earth- Jack draws so many planetoids in and around the Earth-moon space- it’s an absolutely breathtaking cosmic setting- and it’s so far removed from the reality of our local space, that it makes me love it even more!!!! Keep Mine Kirby!!!!💪🤟
Stan Lee has said that he wanted the book to stand on its own and he was trying to get non-comics readers to buy it. That's why there aren't other Marvel characters in it. A non-comics reader wouldn't know who the Fantastic Four was and Stan was afraid it would just confuse people. (Also, as you noted, Stan wanted to make a Silver Surfer movie and producers would have to license other Marvel heroes to tell the original story.) As for my impression when I first read it, I was disappointed by it and stopped reading it halfway through. Other than the Kirby art, I didn't care for the story. It didn't match Marvel continuity and seemed to go on for too long. Kirby's art was also looking very flat, even with Sinnott inking, and being a big Kirby fan, I had seen all the heroic poses and Kirby krackle before. After 1970, I believe, his art looked rushed and very blocky and he was just repeating himself. Or maybe the comics industry had caught up to him and surpassed him. But I enjoyed your critique of "The Silver Surfer" very much.
You guys really rock!! I haven’t seen this book in ages. When I read it originally I was a little disappointed with the story, but looking at the artwork again as an adult the art is AMAZING!! Jack really but his best work out there. I’ll have to reread it again. 😊
I can't be the only one who's asked you guys, but I think you gents should put Silver Surfer Black under the microscope, Tradd Moore did something very very special with that book!
I'm only a few minutes into the video so I don't know if you guys mention it later, but those Fantasy Masterpieces reprints of Silver Surfer stuff is legit one of the coolest things Marvel did in the 80s. I'm not crazy about square-bound books (they have their own issues when it comes to long-term care & storage) but being able to get those stories _on pulp_ with the high-acid ink smell... With the right texture pages to actually *feel* the book & experience it instead of just looking at pictures while you read words & flip pages is priceless. & since the original Silver Surfer books can sometimes approach absolutely ridiculous prices, going to the dollar bins & getting those reprints is awesome.
I wore this book out in 5th grade. The year was 1985 and we had a twenty minute reading period every day. My teacher grabbed it out of my hands and asked me what a couple of words out of it meant. When I told her she said, “ok, you can read this. But do not bring anymore comic books in to this class!” That cover… man guys that takes me back. Ty for posting.
Stan was definitely the weak link here. It should've been a slam dunk; he had the original, relatively successful, stories to use as an armature, but it seems put together on the fly like a book with a monthly deadline. He never seemed to have a handle on the character beyond the idea that it made him feel important. Have a look sometime at the forensic work done by the Jack Kirby Collector, including unused Kirby pencils, on the origin of Galactus that was running as a subplot in Thor towards the end of Kirby's run. As the story progresses to a point where it has to focus, it's just second-guessed, botched and fucked into incoherence. You can only ad lib when you have a foundation in what you're doing, and I feel like Stan was just in over his head by then.
Great to see this reviewed, bought this back in the day, at a time when l could afford to buy pretty much everything at the same time as it came out. Those were the days! This is well overdue a re-read, it will be out from deep storage at the weekend. Keep up the great work guys, excelsior! 😎
I'm really split on which Silver Surfer I prefer, this or Big John Buscema's. Buscema's SS feels more fluid and elegant, whereas Kirby's a bit blocky, but man those inks are gorgeous... therefore both are phenomenal! Have you guys read Four Color Fear: Forgotten Horror Comics of the 1950s? I really wish you guys would overview it, would love to listen to your take about it.
I believe Kirby and Lee’s retaining of the copyright for this story was essentially attempt for them to get a real payday if this served as the basis for a film or TV project. Whoever made the project essentially would have to buy rights for the story from both Marvel but also Kirby and Lee.
As a kid a neighbor showed me a Silver Surfer comic that looked like it was painted where in the story Galactus drowned the Surfer in Blood. I've tried to find what comic that was for years does anyone know what that could have been?
Guys, thanks so much for providing us with a page by page view of this magnum opus! I was able to pause the video and read each page in its entirety. I think you're both being a bit harsh in your criticism of Stan's writing style. That being out of the way, I'd love to have seen this epic done by Jack Kirby on his own. Jack's magnificent art seemed to my sensibilities to be screaming for some Kirby-esque dialog. Stan's captions are reminiscent of his writing in the mid-60s . . "Never has such a dangerous experiment been attempted by a teenage boy!!" . . " . .And as the combatants are engulfed in a mad paroxysm of rage and fury, as the doomsday machine achieves critical mass . . .!!" . . That kind of stuff. I think the story needed the kind of dialog that Jack wrote in Orion of the New Gods. The only DC comics I have ever read. All the same, this is a fantastic example of Kirby at his absolute peak as an artist.
The shot of Norrin and Ardinna(?) in the sky makes me think of Mike and Avril over London in MIRACLEMAN: OLYMPUS--do you think Moore & Totolben saw this? Also: The new background--I never knew you guyz were so...bulgy (I mean, you did live model for this, right?) 😂🖖♾
When I was a young comic reader in HS, the Silver Surfer ogn blew my mind, I read it and reread it.The Silver Surfer ogn is def akin to what DC did with their Elseworlds comics it's meant to be outside of continuity. It was a chance for Jack to do a SS story that aligns more with Kirby's conception of the Silver Surfer rather than Stan's, a sore point between them during the 60s. Kirby saw the Silver Surfer as akin to an angel, an innocent who didn't understand humanity, who worked for a deity who saw humans as a topping, rather than beings who deserve to live. Kirby hated Stan's "origin story" for SS #1, where he makes the Surfer into a human who became the herald of Galactus to save his world & his great love, which makes no sense, given that in the FF stories Jack's plot has Alicia teaching the Surfer humans are worth saving. Why would she need to do that if the Surfer was already a human who sacrificed himself for his planet? Stan's concept is totally the opposite of Jack's, and leaned into Stan's overwrought, over dramatic, over whiney, bombastic text, while giving the Surfer a lover to pine over. There's a reason that book failed, and it wasn't Buscema's art, it was issue after issue of SS ranting about humanity's failure to be humane, about Shalla Bal and Zenn La. I tend to find Stan a difficult read, he describes in caption what can be seen in the art, his dialogue is in no way realistic, its overwrought dramatically, and there's *so* much bickering and manufactured conflict. No real reason to fight, but Stan wants to keep the reader interested, so characters like Thing and the Torch bicker like children and fight over nothing. In the 4th World books, and Kirby's solo work in general, characters who are human have realistic dialogue--something that apparently shocked the ears of superhero readers bc they weren't used to it--and the New Gods talk like deities, in heightened language, not overly dramatic yelling and whining, but big concepts talked about in expansive terms. But the small stories, the human stories, like the family involved in "The Glory Boat," the humans Orion frees from Darkseid's control who have to come to terms with seeing things beyond their normal understanding, the story of the Black Racer, the vet who becomes a Death Deity, and his fam who only see a human mind trapped in a body that doesn't work. Or the human drama that's part of "the Pact," and "Himon," tho happening on a larger palette, still, are truly about the difference between being humane and being human, being a deity and being divine. Whoever says Jack has a tin ear for dialogue, needs to read something besides superhero comics. I've always wanted to do a vid with actor portraying a typical family having breakfast in the morning speaking lines of dialogue taken from Stan's comics--"you must pass the butter or all will be lost"..."will your repair of the lawnmower hold so I can mow the law today pater?" "Yes, it will hold, bc it has too!" Steve Englehart said in an interview when DC announced plans to publish the 4th World in h/c color reprints, he asked DC to let him re-write the dialogue. I can think of nothing worse than Engelhart's Marvel superhero-speak coming out of the mouths of gods, all the Black characters would drop the "g" off their "-ing" words (that was Englehart's interpretation of Black dialect--which Black dialect is unclear). Engelhart wrote some interesting superhero stories, but his dialogue is as overwrought, and ridiculous as Stan's. And obvi he was one of the bronze age Stan fanboys who followed in his footsteps who were angry at Jack for leaving Marvel, and then angry when he returned to Marvel and insisted on doing his own work, outside of continuity, instead of drawing his old characters so they could write the dialogue. The 4th World is not truly a superhero comic, it's something different, Kirby is sneaking high concepts into comics with characters who ostensibly look like superheroes, bc like many sf writers can tell you, its easier to get away with social commentary in heroic fantasy. The Forever People, and the Hairies (the advanced kids who ride in the dragon shaped vehicle not the motorcyclists) are Jack expressing his approval of some hippie philosophy, which he could never have done in comic any other way. He criticized the way Televangalists brainwashed their flocks, the authoritarianism and desire for unlimited presidential power that Nixon and other US politicians embraced, the terrible price of the Viet Nam war, none of which could be done in a comic book in the early 70s. Kirby truly was ahead of his time, the 4th World would've been perfect for Jeanette Kahn's Vertigo imprint, sorta like Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol or Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. comics telling much larger and more mature stories than possible in typical superhero books. In a way, Kirby did superheroes less and less as his career went on, his Thor books were mythological-sci-fi, his FF books were sci-fi adventure stories, SHIELD & Capt American were sci-fi spy thrillers, X-Men was about how we treat social outcasts, the 4th World and The Eternals examined high concepts of divine good and evil with humans being caught in the middle. Kamandi was high concept sci-fi, the Demon was a horror comic with superhero dressing, OMAC was a very dim look at a future vision that scared Kirby, and tbh, was all too accurate.
At age 15…I remember being super super jacked when I found this at a bookstore. But I didn’t enjoy it much, but couldn’t figure out why…i thought Lee and Kirby were the greatest team of all time and my teenage brain couldn’t align this work with that…probably the beginning of doubting the myth of Stan Lee.
What was the prevailing opinion of Royer’s inks at this time? Sinnot seems to be doing a lot less finessing than he did on the F.F. Could he be mimicking Roger?
Hey, I think you guys too easily agreed to replacing the Kirby cover with the Norem cover, as good as that Norem cover is. The Kirby art inside the book is why people are purchasing the book. Why not put that on the cover? I found the Kirby/Sinnott cover online and it is pure graphic Kirby excellence. I can't imagine why anyone would think that a Kirby cover wouldn't sell a Kirby book as well as a Norem cover. Anyway, I enjoy your channel tremendously!
I got this when it came out. It's really cool but a frustrating read due to pacing and padding. Neither Stan nor Jack worked on such a lengthy page count.
I realize this is an unpopular opinion in some circles, but Stan Lee was the weakest link in the Marvel bullpen. Prior to 1964 he was a terrible writer -- I mean terrible not just compared to literary writers but also a much worse writer than other comic book writers of the era like Carl Barks, John Stanley, Harvey Kurtzman and the Simon/Kirby team. Around 1964 or so he figured out how to use hyperbolic jokey language to offer a verbal counterpart to Kirby/Ditko/Wood/Colan. That worked for a bit but by the late 1960s he started taking himself too seriously, with the mock-Shakespearean becoming faux-Shakespearean. His writing from then on was pretentious and ponderous. It took me a long time to appreciate Kirby because Lee's 1960s writing was such a turn-off. Only when I started reading the Fourth World stuff did I understand that Kirby was a great storyteller and that gave me a way back to those 1960s books.
Speaking of Treasury Editions, you gotta do an episode on Captain America's Bicentennial Battles, with the first chapter being Kirby inked by Barry Windsor-Smith!
I love bicentennial battles!
really? i own few and still trying to buy all of those Editions the Treasury Editions
I found this for $5 on the used graphic novel shelf at a local comic’s store a couple months ago in mint condition. Looks amazing.
Wow, what a find! I'm still delaying buying it online because it goes for about $80.
lol same thing happen with me a few days ago. I feel lucky getting something like this for 5 bucks.
Fellas, thanks so much for covering this book, I've loved it since I was a kid but it's in storage and I haven't witnessed it in years. So great to see those pages again.
Jack Kirby was a war surviver and you can see in his art the dynamic movement of real action.
Jack Kirby is such a super rare artist. His style is soo unique! 😍😍😍😍
For those that cannot find or afford the Fireside printing, it was reprinted in comicbook size with a card stock cover and differnt cover illustration in1997. It isn't easy to find, but usually much cheaper when you come across it.
I have that reprint of the Surfer graphic novel.I bought it at a comic shop in 97 or 98.My best friend had the original one,so I was happy to finally get a copy of my own.
Sweet, came here to ask if a reprint is available, thank you!
Now I wanna see Silver Surfer with a mustache.
The Copyright was a legal maneuver because the whole project was about providing a plot for a movie, and by copyrighting this graphic novel, Stan and Jack were trying to secure a piece of the film.
Lee Kramer secured the rights to the Surfer, but not the FF. He also wanted a role for his girlfriend, Olivia-Newton John. This is why the story is basically a re-telling of The Galactus Trilogy, omitting the FF, and why the character Ardina is introduced.
I had actually read this when I was 10 or 11, and didn't think much about the exclusion of the Fantastic Four that much until a lot later. I am very happy to see you feature this now almost two decades later. :)
I am still absolutely amazed that the animated series they made from the surfer really captured the Kirby comic look perfectly. Always though his work was too detailed to ever be animated but they did a good job.
I watched the animated series on Disney Plus earlier this year and i also was surprised how the producers animators captured the Kirby look really well. An underrated and unfortunately shortlived series.
I've watched it a few times on Disney+ now, & it's amazing 😍 I just love it. I remember seeing it on TV when I was in my late teens or early 20s & thinking, goddam that's awesome, but you know it was different back then. There was no "on demand" or digital streaming, you just caught whatever was "on TV" at the moment & if you liked it you tried to find out when you could see it again 😎
@@Matthew.E.Kelly. , i need to rewatch the series. It seemed the producers were trying to setup a story for following seasons. I got a true sense of a cosmic odyssey when i watched it. I think it's more interesting story than the original run of comics by Stan Lee and John Buscema.
Wish they would bring it back for a season 2
Silver Surfer is by far the greatest, most incredible-amazing-mighty-invincible-uncanny and the coolest Marvel character ever!
Kirby may be on the Mt Rushmore, but I’ll always have a soft spot for Ron Liam’s surfer. Loved it as a kid/young teen.
Would love to see a video on the Moebius Silver Surfer book! Thanks for all you do guys, love every vid 🤙
th-cam.com/video/A-R8HgCjiaI/w-d-xo.html
@@CartoonistKayfabe You guys never disappoint! Thanks for everything!
Never knew this was so great. Just figured it was yet another reprint book,, maybe with the whole story arc and some other appearance tossed in, so I dont think I ever even bothered to look since I used to own the original issues and had reread them who knows how many times. At first this struck me as odd, seeing it was a FF comic without the FF. But as you kept looking at it, it struck me as being almost one of Kirby's Silver Age, pre-FF, "monster stories" given enough room to be epic. I really wish he'd been allowed to do some more like that.
I had a hardcover version of this back about 1981. Liked it but sold it like everything else after a few years. Great to see the contents again.
Such a beautiful piece of work! Wow!
Didn't Jack Kirby also do a graphic novel called Hunger Dogs?
Thanks for another great vid, fellas!There’s a splash in this comic where Galactus is on the moon and is surveying the Earth- Jack draws so many planetoids in and around the Earth-moon space- it’s an absolutely breathtaking cosmic setting- and it’s so far removed from the reality of our local space, that it makes me love it even more!!!! Keep Mine Kirby!!!!💪🤟
I got this book when it came out, when I was 7 or so. I still have it, in somewhat rough condition of course, but it is a treasure!
Wow. This book is my pride and joy. I had it autographed by both Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. A pleasure to meet both those legends.
Where did you meet Kirby??
I have a hardcover of this book. The cover is the slip sleeve of the book.. I've been enjoying Kirby since 1965.
yes, Sunday treats before the work week starts. Thanks!
Rest in Peace, Ed.
So glad I scooped this a few months ago before the dreaded Kayfabe effect! It still wasn't cheap...
Love how Silver Surfer looks here. I think Allred draws an almost similar version of him.
Stan Lee has said that he wanted the book to stand on its own and he was trying to get non-comics readers to buy it. That's why there aren't other Marvel characters in it. A non-comics reader wouldn't know who the Fantastic Four was and Stan was afraid it would just confuse people. (Also, as you noted, Stan wanted to make a Silver Surfer movie and producers would have to license other Marvel heroes to tell the original story.)
As for my impression when I first read it, I was disappointed by it and stopped reading it halfway through. Other than the Kirby art, I didn't care for the story. It didn't match Marvel continuity and seemed to go on for too long. Kirby's art was also looking very flat, even with Sinnott inking, and being a big Kirby fan, I had seen all the heroic poses and Kirby krackle before. After 1970, I believe, his art looked rushed and very blocky and he was just repeating himself. Or maybe the comics industry had caught up to him and surpassed him.
But I enjoyed your critique of "The Silver Surfer" very much.
You guys really rock!! I haven’t seen this book in ages. When I read it originally I was a little disappointed with the story, but looking at the artwork again as an adult the art is AMAZING!! Jack really but his best work out there. I’ll have to reread it again. 😊
This looks incredible! I’m off to try to find a copy
miss you ED
I can't be the only one who's asked you guys, but I think you gents should put Silver Surfer Black under the microscope, Tradd Moore did something very very special with that book!
I'm only a few minutes into the video so I don't know if you guys mention it later, but those Fantasy Masterpieces reprints of Silver Surfer stuff is legit one of the coolest things Marvel did in the 80s. I'm not crazy about square-bound books (they have their own issues when it comes to long-term care & storage) but being able to get those stories _on pulp_ with the high-acid ink smell... With the right texture pages to actually *feel* the book & experience it instead of just looking at pictures while you read words & flip pages is priceless.
& since the original Silver Surfer books can sometimes approach absolutely ridiculous prices, going to the dollar bins & getting those reprints is awesome.
Thanks, guys. Good insight about making new comics.
I wore this book out in 5th grade. The year was 1985 and we had a twenty minute reading period every day. My teacher grabbed it out of my hands and asked me what a couple of words out of it meant. When I told her she said, “ok, you can read this. But do not bring anymore comic books in to this class!”
That cover… man guys that takes me back. Ty for posting.
You guys should turn that background art into full comic
Stan was definitely the weak link here. It should've been a slam dunk; he had the original, relatively successful, stories to use as an armature, but it seems put together on the fly like a book with a monthly deadline.
He never seemed to have a handle on the character beyond the idea that it made him feel important. Have a look sometime at the forensic work done by the Jack Kirby Collector, including unused Kirby pencils, on the origin of Galactus that was running as a subplot in Thor towards the end of Kirby's run. As the story progresses to a point where it has to focus, it's just second-guessed, botched and fucked into incoherence. You can only ad lib when you have a foundation in what you're doing, and I feel like Stan was just in over his head by then.
I have this book, I always thought it was a reprint of old Silver Surfer issues.
Great to see this reviewed, bought this back in the day, at a time when l could afford to buy pretty much everything at the same time as it came out.
Those were the days!
This is well overdue a re-read, it will be out from deep storage at the weekend.
Keep up the great work guys, excelsior! 😎
I'm really split on which Silver Surfer I prefer, this or Big John Buscema's. Buscema's SS feels more fluid and elegant, whereas Kirby's a bit blocky, but man those inks are gorgeous... therefore both are phenomenal!
Have you guys read Four Color Fear: Forgotten Horror Comics of the 1950s? I really wish you guys would overview it, would love to listen to your take about it.
I will say, I read it as a kid, and I thought it was totally awesome. :) I feel like I need to pull that out and give it another read.
I believe Kirby and Lee’s retaining of the copyright for this story was essentially attempt for them to get a real payday if this served as the basis for a film or TV project. Whoever made the project essentially would have to buy rights for the story from both Marvel but also Kirby and Lee.
What great Kirby art.
As a kid a neighbor showed me a Silver Surfer comic that looked like it was painted where in the story Galactus drowned the Surfer in Blood. I've tried to find what comic that was for years does anyone know what that could have been?
Guys, thanks so much for providing us with a page by page view of this magnum opus! I was able to pause the video and read each page in its entirety.
I think you're both being a bit harsh in your criticism of Stan's writing style. That being out of the way, I'd love to have seen this epic done by Jack Kirby on his own. Jack's magnificent art seemed to my sensibilities to be screaming for some Kirby-esque dialog. Stan's captions are reminiscent of his writing in the mid-60s . . "Never has such a dangerous experiment been attempted by a teenage boy!!" . . " . .And as the combatants are engulfed in a mad paroxysm of rage and fury, as the doomsday machine achieves critical mass . . .!!" . . That kind of stuff.
I think the story needed the kind of dialog that Jack wrote in Orion of the New Gods. The only DC comics I have ever read.
All the same, this is a fantastic example of Kirby at his absolute peak as an artist.
This lead to a great scene in Crimson tide
The shot of Norrin and Ardinna(?) in the sky makes me think of Mike and Avril over London in MIRACLEMAN: OLYMPUS--do you think Moore & Totolben saw this?
Also: The new background--I never knew you guyz were so...bulgy (I mean, you did live model for this, right?) 😂🖖♾
Perfect book opening with Omar Khayyam's Rubayibat,Art by Kirby 👌🏻
Yes put Silver Surfer Black under the scope!
What If...Kirby was given enough time to draw comics? ⬆
When I was a young comic reader in HS, the Silver Surfer ogn blew my mind, I read it and reread it.The Silver Surfer ogn is def akin to what DC did with their Elseworlds comics it's meant to be outside of continuity. It was a chance for Jack to do a SS story that aligns more with Kirby's conception of the Silver Surfer rather than Stan's, a sore point between them during the 60s. Kirby saw the Silver Surfer as akin to an angel, an innocent who didn't understand humanity, who worked for a deity who saw humans as a topping, rather than beings who deserve to live. Kirby hated Stan's "origin story" for SS #1, where he makes the Surfer into a human who became the herald of Galactus to save his world & his great love, which makes no sense, given that in the FF stories Jack's plot has Alicia teaching the Surfer humans are worth saving. Why would she need to do that if the Surfer was already a human who sacrificed himself for his planet? Stan's concept is totally the opposite of Jack's, and leaned into Stan's overwrought, over dramatic, over whiney, bombastic text, while giving the Surfer a lover to pine over. There's a reason that book failed, and it wasn't Buscema's art, it was issue after issue of SS ranting about humanity's failure to be humane, about Shalla Bal and Zenn La. I tend to find Stan a difficult read, he describes in caption what can be seen in the art, his dialogue is in no way realistic, its overwrought dramatically, and there's *so* much bickering and manufactured conflict. No real reason to fight, but Stan wants to keep the reader interested, so characters like Thing and the Torch bicker like children and fight over nothing.
In the 4th World books, and Kirby's solo work in general, characters who are human have realistic dialogue--something that apparently shocked the ears of superhero readers bc they weren't used to it--and the New Gods talk like deities, in heightened language, not overly dramatic yelling and whining, but big concepts talked about in expansive terms. But the small stories, the human stories, like the family involved in "The Glory Boat," the humans Orion frees from Darkseid's control who have to come to terms with seeing things beyond their normal understanding, the story of the Black Racer, the vet who becomes a Death Deity, and his fam who only see a human mind trapped in a body that doesn't work. Or the human drama that's part of "the Pact," and "Himon," tho happening on a larger palette, still, are truly about the difference between being humane and being human, being a deity and being divine. Whoever says Jack has a tin ear for dialogue, needs to read something besides superhero comics.
I've always wanted to do a vid with actor portraying a typical family having breakfast in the morning speaking lines of dialogue taken from Stan's comics--"you must pass the butter or all will be lost"..."will your repair of the lawnmower hold so I can mow the law today pater?" "Yes, it will hold, bc it has too!" Steve Englehart said in an interview when DC announced plans to publish the 4th World in h/c color reprints, he asked DC to let him re-write the dialogue. I can think of nothing worse than Engelhart's Marvel superhero-speak coming out of the mouths of gods, all the Black characters would drop the "g" off their "-ing" words (that was Englehart's interpretation of Black dialect--which Black dialect is unclear). Engelhart wrote some interesting superhero stories, but his dialogue is as overwrought, and ridiculous as Stan's. And obvi he was one of the bronze age Stan fanboys who followed in his footsteps who were angry at Jack for leaving Marvel, and then angry when he returned to Marvel and insisted on doing his own work, outside of continuity, instead of drawing his old characters so they could write the dialogue.
The 4th World is not truly a superhero comic, it's something different, Kirby is sneaking high concepts into comics with characters who ostensibly look like superheroes, bc like many sf writers can tell you, its easier to get away with social commentary in heroic fantasy. The Forever People, and the Hairies (the advanced kids who ride in the dragon shaped vehicle not the motorcyclists) are Jack expressing his approval of some hippie philosophy, which he could never have done in comic any other way. He criticized the way Televangalists brainwashed their flocks, the authoritarianism and desire for unlimited presidential power that Nixon and other US politicians embraced, the terrible price of the Viet Nam war, none of which could be done in a comic book in the early 70s.
Kirby truly was ahead of his time, the 4th World would've been perfect for Jeanette Kahn's Vertigo imprint, sorta like Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol or Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. comics telling much larger and more mature stories than possible in typical superhero books. In a way, Kirby did superheroes less and less as his career went on, his Thor books were mythological-sci-fi, his FF books were sci-fi adventure stories, SHIELD & Capt American were sci-fi spy thrillers, X-Men was about how we treat social outcasts, the 4th World and The Eternals examined high concepts of divine good and evil with humans being caught in the middle. Kamandi was high concept sci-fi, the Demon was a horror comic with superhero dressing, OMAC was a very dim look at a future vision that scared Kirby, and tbh, was all too accurate.
Man, now I want to see Tom’s edit of this book!
I know see where the Silver Surfer cartoon took his inspiration.
"Why doesn't Darkhawk show up?"
At age 15…I remember being super super jacked when I found this at a bookstore. But I didn’t enjoy it much, but couldn’t figure out why…i thought Lee and Kirby were the greatest team of all time and my teenage brain couldn’t align this work with that…probably the beginning of doubting the myth of Stan Lee.
I don’t even read it anymore I just look at Kirby’s beautiful artwork. Stan’s dialogue is terrible. I wish it had Jack’s cover instead.
What was the prevailing opinion of Royer’s inks at this time? Sinnot seems to be doing a lot less finessing than he did on the F.F. Could he be mimicking Roger?
Earl Norem!!!!! Please have a look at that guy. He is criminally anonymous.
Hey, I think you guys too easily agreed to replacing the Kirby cover with the Norem cover, as good as that Norem cover is. The Kirby art inside the book is why people are purchasing the book. Why not put that on the cover? I found the Kirby/Sinnott cover online and it is pure graphic Kirby excellence. I can't imagine why anyone would think that a Kirby cover wouldn't sell a Kirby book as well as a Norem cover.
Anyway, I enjoy your channel tremendously!
great video. thanks
Kirby not drawing beautiful women? Have the critics never seen Big Barda or Beautiful Dreamer?
I would view this book as a "what if" the other marvel characters didn't exist, thanks guys!
I'd love to see Marvel reprint this in a hardcover collector's edition in the future!
I remember The Comics Journal quite liked this one.
I got this when it came out. It's really cool but a frustrating read due to pacing and padding. Neither Stan nor Jack worked on such a lengthy page count.
This is the silver I like with great writers not these fake writers that makes him weak
I realize this is an unpopular opinion in some circles, but Stan Lee was the weakest link in the Marvel bullpen. Prior to 1964 he was a terrible writer -- I mean terrible not just compared to literary writers but also a much worse writer than other comic book writers of the era like Carl Barks, John Stanley, Harvey Kurtzman and the Simon/Kirby team. Around 1964 or so he figured out how to use hyperbolic jokey language to offer a verbal counterpart to Kirby/Ditko/Wood/Colan. That worked for a bit but by the late 1960s he started taking himself too seriously, with the mock-Shakespearean becoming faux-Shakespearean. His writing from then on was pretentious and ponderous. It took me a long time to appreciate Kirby because Lee's 1960s writing was such a turn-off. Only when I started reading the Fourth World stuff did I understand that Kirby was a great storyteller and that gave me a way back to those 1960s books.
Boy, Tom sure doesn't like Stan Lee, much, does he? Sheesh...