Might be the burn rate of the powder, and whether the longer barrel can take advantage of a longer burn time. Your handloads may be using faster powder than some of the OEM ammo, so the longer barrel is just increasing drag.
When you look at the results from Ballistics by the inch, they tested four different .44 mag factory loads and all of them plateau at only around 14 inches of barrel length. Most factory loads are probably made for revolvers with fast burning powders for short barrels. Have you tried rifle powders?
@@samwilliams1142 Quite possible. If have 3 44 Mags, a 4" Taurus T44, a 7.5" Super Blackhawk, and a 20" Marlin 1894. I have found that faster powders work best in the T44 with less flash and sooting out of the barrel ports, and the hotter powders like the Marlin best. The SBH likes everything, lol. Using a near max W296 load under a 200 gr XTP resulted in 1950-2000 fls out of the Marlin and just under 1600 in the SBH. Backed off of the load as I think both velocities may be too hot for the bullets. Not to mention the recoil for the SBH is pretty stout. Won't even try them in the T44, as it is 10 oz lighter than the SBH, which already recoils very hard with these loads. One thing about handloading is you can find the powder/bullet combos that are most efficient in your own guns.
You won't regret getting a Marble Arms tang sight. They have positive windage & elevation adjustments. I have installed the taller stem on mine for My Uberti 1873 rifle in 44 WCF. That rifle has a 30" barrel & that sight has allowed me to make numerous very precise shots exceeding 300 yards. I appreciate watching your Videos. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for your comment, especially the feedback on the Tang site. I think it will be fun to lob 44 caliber bullets out to Extended ranges. Seems like an evening of relaxing shooting. Possibly from a comfortable chair, possibly with cool beverage by my side😉
+1 for the Marble Arms tang sight - I run one on my little Miroku 44 Mag 16" Take down 1892 - the taller stem is a must. Even with my minuscule barrel length I recorded 1997 f/s using a XTP 180gr in front of 27.5gr of H110 - thanks for your videos.
Put a wet wash cloth on the dents in wood and briefly put a steam iron on the area, careful not to over heat. The steam from the wet cloth will raise the damaged area maybe enough to touch up the finish
I bought the same rifle 20 years ago...Still have it, BUT when I got it, even as new it needed a lot of work to smooth the action down. It was very rouigh, very stiff and it even pulled a cartridge apart on extraction. Sent it off to a first class smith in Tesas who smoothed it up for Cowboy action, Runs like a champ now. Action is smooth and even feeling, Plain open sights are spot on.
I have the very same Rossi, love it. Your velocity disappointment is definitely a pressure issue with typical pistol powders. What powder did you use with those screaming Lehigh handloads? I tried a variety of existing loads when I got my Rossi. My 250 grain trailboss "mousefart" loads actually keyholed out of the Rossi, even though they shot true out of my 7.5" super Blackhawk and 10" contender barrels. I added the receiver peep to mine in place of the safety, got it from Steves Gunz. Only issue I had with the Rossi was that the magazine tube was sliding forward with my heavy loads. Was able to fix that with some JB Weld under the forearm.
I think it's momentum of a given load versus barrel friction, with an already nearly maxed out efficiency factor for this particular caliber and cartridge, sometimes favoring one barrel length for one powder and bullet selection/combination, and in other loadings favoring the other. I love your presentations, and the way you think! Usually similar to my own approach, and often taking it further and teaching me a lot! Thank you.
Congratulatipm ons on your new rifle . I have used the Marble tang mounted peep sight for years with complete satisfaction. I have three mounted on various rifles. It sure nice when you need to make a windage change, to reach up and turn that knobs. Thanks for the video,George, much enjoyed!
I just about snarfed my coffee when I heard "if you haven't checked out my shorts, please do" lol. I half expected him to pop on screen with some James Reeves level shorts lol.
It seems to me that you've reached the point of diminished returns at 20" maybe with a slower burning powder with near capacity charge weights the extra 4" could exploit some unused energy. It also seems to me the with the lighter bullets with presumably higher velocity in the bore are able to utilize a little more time spent in the barrel to reach a more complete burn, thus reaching higher velocities at the muzzle.
Have a 44mag Rossi 92 Silver in 20” that I’ve been shooting SASS for 10 years, and I love it. Action was a bit rough out of the box but I was able to smooth things out myself with a bit of judicious polishing here and there. Have to keep an eye on the side screws as they tend to loosed. Love this rifle, though my shooting buddies laugh at me cuz the 6” leather thong I have in the saddle ring gets caught in the hammer sometimes…but I ain’t takin it off…I likes it too much. BTW…added the saddle ring myself. Had it custom made to match the stainless finish…looks awesome!
I have an R92 and out of the box it was terrible. It cycled terribly and would constantly jam. I polished the feed ramp and removed all burrs from the action. Now it's my favorite rifle and it now it ALWAYS cycles buttery smooth.
The minor blems you pointed out are... less than you're going to give it yourself just shooting and handling... I reckon. And as to the velocities, I don't find that disappointing. The 44 Mag after all is a pistol round and the propellants for it are pretty quick burning = just not a long enough burn to take advantage of the longer barrel length. The loads that did go faster probably had slower burning powder. Just a guess. Another great vid ! Keep em coming!
Hi George. If you’re thinking of installing a tang sight on that Rossi you might want to check the tang is in line with the barrel. I had a Marbles tang sight fitted to my Winchester 94 (.357) by a gunsmith and while it’s dead centre on the tang I have to almost run out of windage adjustment to get it to shoot to point of aim. The tangs are not always flat either, which can tilt the sight one way or t’other, but I’m sure you know all of this anyway. Always a pleasure to watch your videos.
@@greybone777 Yes, I could do that, but it looks even weirder and more obvious with the front sight drifted well over to the left in its dovetail. As long as I have enough adjustment left on the rear sight I’ll stay with that. Thanks for your comment 👍
Exactly what I was looking for. Local place has the 24" and a stainless 20" 44mag. The 20" barrel sure looks thin, maybe its just thinner to the 24" octagonal. Appreciate the comparison of several different brands in both barrel lengths.
About 11+ yrs ago I chronographed the Hornady 160gr LEVERevolution 30-30 ammo in my Marlin 20” barrel and my Winchester 24”. I shot 10 rounds through each of them and they both came out averaging 2465fps. As far as accuracy goes, the Marlin hated it and the Winchester loved it. To this day, from the bench and using a Williams Peep sight, I can still get 1.5” groups @100yds and I’ve taken a number of deer, a black bear and one cow elk with the Winchester. So I wasn’t overly surprised with the first couple findings on your 44’s. The best I could figure out is the powder burn was completely done in my rifles and basically the bullet was only encountering friction on the last 4 inches in my Winchester.
Thanks. I really appreciate that comment. I too have had vastly different results with the Hornady FTX bullets. Some guns love them some hate them. But to their defense I have not done a definitive work to find out why. I just chose not to use them instead.
Sorry to here about the finish and fit flaws with the Rossi. I have never been impressed with 44 special because the cost is close to the 44 magnum. I just use reduced loads in 44 mag brass and lead bullets for plinkers. The big advantage of owning a 357 /38 special is lower cost and versatility. Lower recoil and enough power for deer , hogs , coyotes at closer wood and brush ranges. The 38 special is like a big 22 on small edible game like rabbits and squirrels. A 38 hole in and 38 hole out.
Buffalo Bore had published similar results for some of their ammo, can’t remember if it was .44, .45 or what, but around 18 inches was ideal if my memory serves me correctly. I think more powder or slower burning powder would produce the results you are looking for. Just so much powder to burn in those short cases. Question, will the Rossi action accommodate those longer 300+ grain .44 mag loads from BB?
Can’t really fault the gun for the disappointments you have. For the cosmetic stuff you could have walked away from the sale. Also, since you did not, it kind of shows why he would not come down on price. He clearly knew you were not willing to walk away from the sale over those cosmetic issues. As far as the velocity, every load uses different powders with different burn rates which I’m sure you know. The only way to really use a 24” barrel length on a pistol caliber carbine for more velocity is hand loading with slower powders.
Thanks for your comment. I don't know what powder is used in the factory ammo, but in the Berry's handloads as well as my XTP handloads I used A2400. That is not a handgun powder.
@@TargetSuite Well, there is a limit to the slowest powder for every cartridge.. I would guess that the max barrel length for speed would be 20-22 inches. It is likely the 20 inches but the longer sight radius and other factors make up for the lower speed. BTW I love my tang sights. I even have one vernier one on a 45-70 Gov Rolling Block
Thanks for all your comments. And you hinted at what I'm thinking, and that is that this is not a performance rifle it is going to be a fun rifle to lob slow-moving heavy bullets at extended ranges. So the longer Barrel is helpful whether or not it's generating more velocity. And thanks for your comments about the Tang site. I suspect by the end of the day I'll have one on order😉
I just got a new r92 357/38 octagon.The gun is perfect accept for 2 very small shadows in the bluing on one side , it is very hard to see. Other than that, the fit and finish is spot on.I am very pleased
Could you repeat/display or provide a link to the powders used with your reloads? Also,, how critical are magnum vs large pistol primers. Both are very difficult ot find? Thanks!
Nice video. For rifles I’d suggest trying H4227 with 240 or heavier projectiles. If you cast, a gas checked (or powder coat) 240 might be the ticket. Some lever guns don’t feed all types of semi was cutters.
I noticed similar velocity issues with the .357 mag in a rifle. The revolver cartridges are generally optimized for use in a 6 inch barrel. Those fast powders probably run out of push before they run out of barrel. I did some testing with my hand loads and observed slower powders deliver better velocity out of the longer barrels. No extensive analysis. Just wondered why, and played a little.
Hey George; according to a friend at "Remington Ammunition", typical gains/ losses equal 10fps per inch of barrel length. Of course, that +/- figure is only applicable to their ammunition. Other manufactures offer +/- figures in the 15fps range. All of this is predicated on hunting ammunition that I've asked specifically about and not to hot loaded specialty ammunition. Where the 25fps per inch "rule of thumb" comes from I am unaware and I've never heard, or read, anything other than anecdotal evidence, that supports the "rule". That is why I asked for your demonstration. I suspect we, collectively, will learn something about velocity data between 20" to 24" barrel performance that is contrary to the "rule" as we've been told over the years. As always, thank you very much for you hard work and keep up the excellent job. I never fail to learn something as I enjoy watching the video work you produce. P.S. I am really looking forward to the "impressionism" artwork.
Thanks for your input Gregory. I'm sure there's a lot of questions we won't answer but it's a fun Journey nonetheless. Speaking of Journeys, I'm really looking forward to the impressions series. I probably should have started smaller and worked up but with smaller cans and lighter loads it will still be interesting. Just on a little smaller scale😄
Hornady years ago publish velocity for there 45 Colt Leverevolution out of 5.5” barrel and 20”. The velocity wasn’t the significant increase I expected from a rifle so a called Hornady and one of there techs told me that the 45 Colt Leverevolution power charge was design specific for 45 Colt handguns. Basically he stated the load was running out of powder charge in. 20” barrel before it exited. I am would speculate that the cartridges your experiencing little velocity change with are maxed out in a 20” barrel and probably designed as a handgun load. Where as your hand loads, Buffalo Bore etc are loaded to max charges and have enough powder to be used in that 4” extra of barrel.
I think you have nailed it. There may also be some issues with chamber diameter and bore diameter but I think the biggest issue is how the cartridges were loaded.
I think to have read in ‘The American Rifle’ that 50 fps was the expected difference between velocity and barrel lengths for every inch? Could bullet diameter have caused the unexpected results? Installed a Marble’s tang sight on a model 94. Put a 0.5” rear sight and a ‘folding’ front sight on the 26” barreled rifle. Use the folding sight for 25 yards, and dropping the front sight, the tang sight for 100 yards
Barrel length is only helpful up to a point. Perhaps a longer burning or slower burning powder would help? I can see that if the powder burns off way before the bullet leaves barrel, that the friction of the last little bit would slow it down. I don't know if im correct or not but just seems like a good explanation.
You are correct about barrel length working against you. I actually demonstrated this with two target 22 rifles. Beyond about 16 in a standard 22 long rifle will begin to slow down due to friction in the bore. I suspect that was what was at Play in one of the loads I showed in this video. Thanks for the comment and thank you for watching!
Had one long ago switched to Chiappa Alaskan 44Mag and its an extrem upgrade for me.... allready over 300shoots. (Here in Europe we dont get Winchester Marlin and co so easy..) Best Ammo for Rossi is Magtech, surpise surprise...(same company) Also Magtech is often very hot loaded and the 44Mag is very hot))
I have 2 trains of thought on the velocity question. It is possible that all of the powder is being burned up in the 20 inch barrel, so the 24 inch barrel wouldn't have an advantage. Or, is it possible that the 20 inch barrel is a little tighter than the 24 inch, and some of the pressure it blowing past the rounds, especially if the bullets are at the smaller end of the tolerance in the 24 inch.
Great thoughts. It's interesting that some of the loads saw no benefit even a degradation of velocity. But others saw a significant increase in velocity. So, I will be checking the bore and chamber diameters, but I also suspect that powder choice is a big part of those higher velocities. Just my $.02
Thanks for sharing George. This reinforces 20" as my favorite barrel length in a pistol cartridge rifle, for balance between usable powder burn/velocity, muzzle blast, mag capacity, and distance between the sights.
You are welcome. Yes my 20-in Barrel Winchester will still get the most love. This gun is going to be a relaxed casual shooter probably from a chair probably with a cold beverage nearby. Of course when I feature it on TH-cam I will be much more serious😉
Quick unrelated question, has anyone else had trouble with loading these ? Should I just cut my ammo tube spring a little or is it going to get easier over time ?
This one is not too bad. But my 357 Rossi needed a jackhammer to get the last couple of rounds in. So I shortened that one a tad. But proceed as your own risk because Too Short is even worse😉
Great review Target Suite! I own the Rossi R95 Trapper 30 30 for my big game ventures here in Vermont. This rifle is excellent, and is comparable to any Marlin, Henry, etc., that I have ever owned. It's not fancy, just a work horse, but it's accurate, dependable, and good fit and finish.
I have a Henry big boy brass .44 with a 20 "octagon barrel. To say i love this rifle is correct. It will shoot almost anything accurate. 240 to 270 grns.i hand load all my rounds. And i am at max charge of imr 4227. The rifle likes it that way. It will almost keep 1" at 100yds. I have a 1-5 Leupold scope on mine . God bless. 😊
I finally got a Rossi R92 20" blued/wood 357 mag last week. And put 10 rounds in to check the operation and that was fine but I noticed that the blueing was coming off the loading gate after loading just 10 rds. So I looked at yours closely and noticed yours has the same problem. I have a Marlin 94 and a Uberti 1873 and there's no issues with the finish on the loading gates after years of shooting. I called Rossi and they said they haven't heard any other complaints and I could send the rifle into them to fix it. I asked "can't you just send me a new loading gate?" they wouldn't do that. I'm not going to send it back and have them put another one on that would have the same defect. So tried some cold blueing by Birchwood Casey and that came off too. So I'm disappointed in that aspect of the finishing quality, but otherwise a nice rifle for the money, good fit and finish and action feels pretty smooth too. Anybody else had issues with the loading gates blueing coming off?
Unfortunately, and you have discovered, as I have, there are compromises that we have to live with in the Rossi lever guns. But to get an affordable 1892 lever gun at this price I am okay with the lower "quality" bluing.
Anyone know where replacement bullet guides can be purchased? I have a 20 inch stainless round barrel that will not reliably release rounds out of the tube magazine, or feed 44mag or 44spl into the chamber. This was an issue when the gun was purchased new. Thx.
That's a good question. I have recently contacted Rossi about some technical questions and I hear nothing in return. I don't know that they have any technical people here in the US to answer questions like that.
I think the main differences in velocities across the board are due to the differences in the powders and the bullet weights used by the manufacturers. Since you are handloading it would be nice to see a test of a fast burning pistol powder, a medium burn rate powder and a slow burning rifle powder, using the same weight and manufacturer of bullet across the board for the test with the 20" and 24" barrell's. My loading manuals all list 44 magnum (pistol) and 44 magnum (rifle) seperately. I have read that the factory rounds are designed to work as best as they can be made to in both pistols and rifles. So I would guess the factory rounds use a medium burn rate powder that will function in both a pistol and a rifle. As a handloader you can tailor your recipie for either of the two. It would be my bet the long burning rifle powders would greatly outperform the pistol powders in either rifle but give an advantage in velocity to the 24" over the 20" barrel especially as you aproach the high end of the load charts. One thing I have noticed with handloding Berry's is that the copper plating is not sufficiently thick enough to prevent them from leading barrels when pushed to the higher end of the charts they are not copper jacketed they are electrolosis plated and should be loaded using the cast lead bullet chart not the jacketed bullet chart or staying on the low end of the jacketed bullet charts. Just my findings with having used Berry's in several pistols and rifles myself and leading several barrels up badly by pushing them too fast. They however are really great at lower velocities in both of my 500 magnum pistols and my 44 magnum pistols. I have not had good luck yet with them in my 44 Henry rifle and because of that I have not tried them in any other rifles mainly because I already have pet loads for them using jacketed bullets that I know perform well without leading up my barrels. I hate trying to clean lead out of barrels.
the tang peep is pretty classy, but I just put a small square patch of electrical tape with a 1/16" clean punch hole onto my right glasses lens. Always perfectly in line with e my natural head position every time. Also, if you have corrective lenses, it will automatically be at the correct optical distance from your eye. Your glasses will correct the target image while the peep corrects the sight image at the same time. Costs about a penny, can be easily peeled off and stuck to your gun box or even on the receiver for later use. Easy to replace in a second. Takes but a few minutes to fuss it onto the right spot on the lens but it will usually be way up in the upper left, against the frame. You won't even see it when looking around. Works just a well on plain safety glasses.
I like the rossi 92 in 45 long colt, however for 44 mag I went with the Henry Big Boy and its a thumper especially with the hardcast and +P type rounds.
I Worked in a gun store for several years and I sold a hundred Rossi carbines. People would ask about them and I would explain the the gun was designed by a genius, built of modern steel on c&c machinery to exacting tolerances. In a country where people can work for less. That's why they can sell them at a reasonable price. The other reason that keeps the price low is that you don't get much hand fitting of parts or hand polishing of the action. You can let it wear in over time or pay a gunsmith to do an action job on it or learn to do it yourself. Thanks the difference between a thousand dollar Browning and a $500 Rossi. I sold a ton of them and none ever came back. John Davis Jax Fl
Was it a hot day? Was the ammo warm, because those 180 grains were about 150 fps faster than normal. Otherwise, it appears that the standard factory ammo has a magnum pistol powder that completely burns up in 20" barrel. The ones that had an increase in the 24" must have a slower powder, possibly IMR 4227 (or a fast rifle powder) that can take advantage of the longer barrel. However they are still far less energetic than the factory ammo.
It was a hot day. Probably in the mid-90s when I did the chronograph work. And I think you are spot on. The ones that saw a velocity increase had to have a powder that was formulated for a longer Barrel.
.44 Magnum is a pistol round. Typically pistol rounds are designed around short barrels. I know that a 9mm, for example, increases velocity in longer barrels up to about 12 inches, then it starts to slow down, the powder being burned, the extra barrel length just adds friction. I suspect you could tailor a powder/bullet combination for a slower burn to optimize the longer barrel.
You hit the nail on the head. And I will try to find a powder bullet combo that will utilize more of that Barrel length. But slower burning powders typically don't pack enough energy by volume to offer an advantage in the small space allotted by Pistol cartridges. But, that doesn't prevent me from trying😉
I have a Miroku Winchester 92 with a 20" barrel (twin actually) and a Marlin 1894 Cowboy with a 24" barrel in 44 mag. The 24" Marlin was consistently gaining 50 FPS or so over the Miroku. Different rate of twist, I believe, but still. H110 22 gr I believe.
My research indicates that the average handgun powder is all burnt up after about 17 inches. After 17 inches the bullet is slowing down due to friction.
I have seen impressive testing from Ruger M77/44 rifles , 18.5 " RE: Vel. . I think 20" is the sweet spot for Lever rifles . The 24 " may shoot better with open sights ??
That 125 grain copper at 2500 ft per second is really impressive! Being that that's a copper fluid transfer do you think it would work well with deer? Do you know anybody that's actually used it for hunting? You would have a really flat trajectory and a lot more range. I wonder what velocity you have to maintain to achieve the fluid transfer because I know those bullets do not mushroom? Interesting as always thank you 👍
Hi George I’ve just read about 400 comments, you may not get much F.P.S. Increase with the 24” barrel but my experience are that the loudness is decreased substantially compared to a 16” barrel 44 magnum. If you’re sitting at a bench in the back 40 lobbing a box of ammo, it may not make much of a difference since you’ll be wearing hearing protection but people a quarter mile away or deer during archery season may respond differently. Maybe. I have a single shot CVA in 44 magnum that I use for hunting sometimes and I cut it down from 22 inches down to 16 1/2 inches to be able to get through thick brush and also fit in a small blind better. The CVA is very accurate but it is much louder than when it was at 22”. Adding a different perspective ,Dave.
When I cut the CVA 5.5” off of 22”. My near max loads of 300 grain copper with H110 printed a few inches lower at 200 yds. I was guessing that it was mostly due to reduced fps. I don’t have a cronnie. Maybe barrel harmonics and muzzle crown are help effecting it printing lower.
@@davidedward13nothing wrong with your perspective but any rifle, regardless of how loud at the muzzle, unless it’s suppressed and shooting near subsonic loads, can/will spook game. Plus if you’re the only one in the woods trying to be quiet, it’s noble but no one else around you is going to care…they’re going to shoot whatever they brought…likely an inappropriate target gun in some hyper velocity cartridge with a tanker style muzzle brake on the end that shakes the forest and deafens all around it…to shoot a deer at 50 yards.
A tang site would probably help with long distance shooting. Aperture sites are nice for distance but the buckhorn site is great for quick, close shots. What kind of range do you think you can accurately get with a .44 mag.? My lever is a .25-35 and I also used to have a .30-30 both Winchesters. I did fire a .44-40 replica 40 yrs ago. Don’t remember the make. He’d gotten it through Dixie Gun Works I believe. That rifle seemed a bit anemic for anything past 100 yds but it wasn’t the most accurate rifle I ever fired. You still did a good job of destroying that homney can and that’s the best use for homney in my opinion.
Your powder is burning off before the bullet is passing somewhere in your barrel. Not sure where because it could be that case in both rifles, but, that 4 inches is significant enough to allow the shorter barrel to push the bullet out faster. That goes for the rounds where there is little to no deviation, though there would be less travel to the end of the barrel vs the rounds where the 20 inch barrel is over 100 feet faster. Otherwise there will be at least some significant increase in bullet speed. This is why they shortened the barrels on the M4A2s to 10 inches for SF guys that shoot the heavy bullets in order to better suppress the report of the cartridge when they were testing the 300 blkout. They stuck with the 10" barrel and heavy bullet when they decided to go with the 6.8 round (a mistake if you ask me as the 6.5 grendel is ballisticly a far superior round with 7.62 type numbers past 500 yards as the bullet is so efficient it carries it's energy and speed better from 500 to 1000 meters over the 7.62). You dont want to give up any efficiency in a gunfight.
A bit of sarcasm here but I usually drop my new gun or bang it against something ON PURPOSE just to get it over with they all get banged up eventually if you actually use them. Why I prefer used stuff it already has character instead of perfection. Good enough for me.
Haha! I don't have to worry about that on this one. It comes pre-banged. When I first saw this gun at the store it was hanging on the wall. When I went back to buy it it was back on a counter and had some stuff piled around it. I'm pretty sure the damage happened at the gun store. But I really didn't care because I wanted it for personal use and to get this video out. I had promised this a long time ago.
Not strange at all. Pistol powders usually burn fast and max velocity will be met long before the end of 24" barrel. Some of the magnum powders burn slower and the gasses will still be expanding at the end of a 24" pipe.
I think a real sweet spot in the Rossi lineup is the 16” barrel R92 in 44mag with the skinner peep and picatinny rail forward of the action. The one with the large loop with paracord wrap. I could see putting a red dot on that and being a happy hunter out to about 100 yards, but most opportunities for where I hunt are around 50 yards. I’ve been eyeballing the 454 Casull one though…not that I need it, but I sure do want it!
I love this channel. Probably bore and chamber dimensions vary. That volume may be enough to cause pressure drop on the long barrel. It makes sense to me that when everything is pushed to maximum, that is where you stand a chance of gaining from the extra length, as the time under pressure beats out the volume increase effect. Fantastic experiment, thank you.
Here is a load that works great for plinking in my Uberti/Winchester 1873 .44 Mag 200 gr. plated Xtreme loaded with 9 gr. Unique. About like a top end .44-40
Straight wall cartridges are by far less barrel-lenght related than bottle-necks. In most cases you will not see much velocity increase After 16-18 inch. "Ballistics by the inch"
Ballistics as measured by the LabRadar showed two loads that were 170-ish fps faster out of the longer barrel. And my more recent vid with this 24" Rossi revealed a bore that was .003" larger than the SAAMI spec. So, the big question in my mind is why some loads really seemed to benefit from the longer barrel, and some didnt🤔
Have model 92 in 44 mag since 2013. Start with the bad first. Only 2 things did not like when and after I bought it was only half of a loading door on it. Obvously knew about it when I bought it. But did not know about this. Then after I shot it the 1st few times, don't like sights on it. Don't get me wrong they are good out to 50 yards, but longer shots then 50 yards not very good. Other then that very good rifle, nice and light, actually 1 of the best I have. At the time thought I was paying to much $$$. But comparing other post and the gun prices now days I got a great deal on it.
Good morning.... Nice shooting.... I looked at the rifle ... Before I bought my Henry Big Boy 44.... The safety on the Rossie and the wood stocks seemed cheaper than I liked... Then I seen they are no longer AMERICAN Made. So that helped my decision on Buying my Henry.... Thanks for the video.
Thanks for your comment! As far as I know , Rossi rifles have always been made in Brazil. And they have been through quite a few changes in quality. I'm glad they are on the uptick right now. Thanks for watching.
@@TargetSuite Yes, Rossi was originally from Brazil, then got taken over by Taurus (also in Brazil) and is now owned and manufactured by CBC (also in Brazil). When comparing Henry, Marlin, Winchester, Uberti and Rossi, we should never forget that the Rossi are substantially lower cost than the other ones. I don't know about the US, but here in Germany, Rossi is literally half the price of the others. For what they are, they are really good rifles that shoot well. They are not as luxurious as the others.
I am no professional but what's happening is, it's a pistol caliber made for a short barrel. So in the rile length barrel your getting a complete powder burn so the gains are minimal after 16 to 20 inches. Your reaching the maximum velocity in less than 24 inches
Ive got the new 357mag same gun worked a good accurate with blue dot refinish the stock and replaced horn sights with ladder sights try the 158 Remington 38pp , for the 44 try 300 gr. BULLETS vary accurate in 44 rifle! Regardless of speed clover leaf accuracy is what i prefer!
As others mentioned with some loads the optimal velocity may be reached in a shorter barrel, 'But'. Even when of the same length length not all barrels are equal. You should have seen some significant velocity increase with an extra 4 inches of barrel. Variations in chamber, rifling, and other dimensions could all be important. My guess is if you cut 4 inches off of the 24 inch barrel it will shoot slower than the other barrel. For a 44 mag the only reason for a 24 inch barrel is for a longer magazine tube or longer sighting radius. Now for a 25-35 with reloads and slow powder I can see the wisdom of a longer barrel, but then it has been a long time since anyone to my knowledge has made a 25-35 rifle.
Haven't red the other comments but here's a thought. The only time a longer barrel is going to produce higher velocity is when all the powder is consumed in both barrels. If a larger charge is fired through a short barrel the excess powder does nothing to propell the bullet it simply makes a large flash at the muzzel.
Thanks for your comment. And the problem with pistol caliber rounds in a rifle is there's just not enough volume in the case to fill it full of slower burning powder which will generate pressure over a longer period of time resulting in higher velocity. So there is a point of diminishing returns. I'm hoping I can experiment a little bit and find out what some of those premium rounds are doing to get higher velocity out of a longer barrel. Thanks for your comment and thanks for watching!
As far as the velocity, it could be the quicker burning powder kept the bullets at the same velocity, and a slower burn rate could have increased the velocity in the longer barrel. Just a thought!
I have a Henry 22 and a Rossi pump 22(plastic)...... shooting wise the Rossi stands up to the Henry I've been looking at getting 357/44 lever action and since Rossi is a couple hundred dollars less, that's the way I'm leaning I might notice the marks in the wood.....I really don't think that has to do with the brand, probably the dealer
I was a little uneasy seeing the headline of the video. Glad to find out the gun itself was ok, other than the nicks from the dealer. He should've at least given you a 10% discount!
Thanks for watching. The uneasy headline was intentional. It's just part of trying to get people's attention. And I agree the dealer could have made some concession, but he probably knew I was going to walk out with that gun regardless. I had been in to look at it before😉
The issue with a perfect gun , the first nick is so painful . Pitty the person that makes the first ding if it's not You !! You hate to have any people touch it . Now , it came with the 1st & 2nt ding ... feel free to take out in the field or let other people shoot it , it will gain more battle scars & character with use & age !!
What you're seeing in the video is the vast majority of the rounds that I have fired through that gun so far. Once I get the Tang site installed I will do some accuracy work and report on that.
Very good video again George! Love the guns! Others have commented on likely reasons/scenarios of speed comparisons to cover most likely situations that have occurred. No matter what though you probably had a good time and that’s where it’s at my friend!😊
Thanks! I was a couple hundred feet per second below the velocity ceiling for the berries bullets. But you are right about the burn rate. That is a major factor.
Wait until you find out the Henry's 44mag mares leg with a 12inch barrel has faster velocity than your 20inch. Theres videos proving it. Possible getting 1800+ velocity out of a 240gr since its at the optimal barrel length to powder to cartridge size. All 3 matter, and have a theoretical best combination
Have Marble peep sights on my Uberti 92 and 94. Love them. Even have one each of the various length sights for my 1885 High Wall. Interesting that the longer barrel did not produce any significant difference in fps for most rounds. Any thoughts why! What about decreased pressures due to bore or chamber diameters?
Make sure your comment Doug! I've heard that Rossi chambers are sometimes oversized. In the near future I will be slugging that chamber and the bore to see if there's any anomaly there.
Further proof that the .45 Colt is the ONLY way to go! :))) Either that, or the fact that most commercial loads are optimized for barrels shorter than 24 inches. I'll stick with the first hypothesis. There's a joke in there somewhere about, "Hominy shots does it take George to blow up a can?" From now on, you'll be known as, "Two-Can George." Thanks for making this nearly grown man smile.
Tom, I have to say your comments are the most entertaining. And buried in all of your favoritism to the 45 Colt is some usable wisdom and encouragement😄
@@TargetSuite What got me to appreciate the .45 Colt was the fact that it can get pretty much the same "work" done as the .44 Mag but at lower pressures. Less stress on gun and shooter, excepting Buffalo Bore's offerings.
Great question Ken. And they probably are.. But that technique works best on bare wood. I'm afraid the application of steam on this type of finish would result in hazing or bubbling.
Have the same only in stainless steel, in fact most of my Rossi’s are stainless (38/37, 44(20” & 24”) 45 Colt and 45/410 revolver carbines) also have 45 Colt and 45-70 blued. Like the stainless much better, seem smoother right out the box then blued, don’t know if they pay more attention to the stainless or because of the surface of stainless is just naturally smoother. But I do know that my Rossi’s are some of the sweetest levers I own and just FYI I do own Winchester, Marlin, Mossberg, Henry and Uberti levers. God Bless Texas 🤙🏼❤️🇺🇸🤠
Might be the burn rate of the powder, and whether the longer barrel can take advantage of a longer burn time. Your handloads may be using faster powder than some of the OEM ammo, so the longer barrel is just increasing drag.
That seems to be the most likely candidate. Thanks!
When you look at the results from Ballistics by the inch, they tested four different .44 mag factory loads and all of them plateau at only around 14 inches of barrel length. Most factory loads are probably made for revolvers with fast burning powders for short barrels. Have you tried rifle powders?
I agree. It could be a combination of both.
The 44 special might reverse the velocity gain coming out faster from the shorter barrel. They have less and faster powder.
@@samwilliams1142 Quite possible. If have 3 44 Mags, a 4" Taurus T44, a 7.5" Super Blackhawk, and a 20" Marlin 1894. I have found that faster powders work best in the T44 with less flash and sooting out of the barrel ports, and the hotter powders like the Marlin best. The SBH likes everything, lol. Using a near max W296 load under a 200 gr XTP resulted in 1950-2000 fls out of the Marlin and just under 1600 in the SBH. Backed off of the load as I think both velocities may be too hot for the bullets. Not to mention the recoil for the SBH is pretty stout. Won't even try them in the T44, as it is 10 oz lighter than the SBH, which already recoils very hard with these loads. One thing about handloading is you can find the powder/bullet combos that are most efficient in your own guns.
You won't regret getting a Marble Arms tang sight. They have positive windage & elevation adjustments. I have installed the taller stem on mine for My Uberti 1873 rifle in 44 WCF. That rifle has a 30" barrel & that sight has allowed me to make numerous very precise shots exceeding 300 yards. I appreciate watching your Videos. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for your comment, especially the feedback on the Tang site. I think it will be fun to lob 44 caliber bullets out to Extended ranges. Seems like an evening of relaxing shooting. Possibly from a comfortable chair, possibly with cool beverage by my side😉
Wow! How are loading that 44 WCF? I'm running 200 gr. cast over 6 gr. 700x. I'm still getting used to the rifle, shooting about 4" at 100 yds.
@@wdtaut5650 Unique powder works very well but I get my best accuracy with Bullseye. You'll have to determine how much is appropriate for your needs.
I have one of those on my Rossi 357 with a 16 inch barrel, dings a ten inch plate at 100 yards easily, that's all I need from it.
+1 for the Marble Arms tang sight - I run one on my little Miroku 44 Mag 16" Take down 1892 - the taller stem is a must. Even with my minuscule barrel length I recorded 1997 f/s using a XTP 180gr in front of 27.5gr of H110 - thanks for your videos.
Put a wet wash cloth on the dents in wood and briefly put a steam iron on the area, careful not to over heat. The steam from the wet cloth will raise the damaged area maybe enough to touch up the finish
That trick has worked on several different gun stocks.
Larry Potterfield from Midway has a good video showing that.
Might try slugging the bore and see if the Winchester has a tighter bore
I bought the same rifle 20 years ago...Still have it, BUT when I got it, even as new it needed a lot of work to smooth the action down. It was very rouigh, very stiff and it even pulled a cartridge apart on extraction. Sent it off to a first class smith in Tesas who smoothed it up for Cowboy action, Runs like a champ now. Action is smooth and even feeling, Plain open sights are spot on.
Sir, i love your rossi lever gun vids! and just also your love for lever actions in general gotta love the lever action !
Thanks!
You survived without the glasses! Simply miraculous!
I have the very same Rossi, love it. Your velocity disappointment is definitely a pressure issue with typical pistol powders. What powder did you use with those screaming Lehigh handloads? I tried a variety of existing loads when I got my Rossi. My 250 grain trailboss "mousefart" loads actually keyholed out of the Rossi, even though they shot true out of my 7.5" super Blackhawk and 10" contender barrels. I added the receiver peep to mine in place of the safety, got it from Steves Gunz. Only issue I had with the Rossi was that the magazine tube was sliding forward with my heavy loads. Was able to fix that with some JB Weld under the forearm.
I think it's momentum of a given load versus barrel friction, with an already nearly maxed out efficiency factor for this particular caliber and cartridge, sometimes favoring one barrel length for one powder and bullet selection/combination, and in other loadings favoring the other. I love your presentations, and the way you think! Usually similar to my own approach, and often taking it further and teaching me a lot! Thank you.
Congratulatipm ons on your new rifle . I have used the Marble tang mounted peep sight for years with complete satisfaction. I have three mounted on various rifles. It sure nice when you need to make a windage change, to reach up and turn that knobs. Thanks for the video,George, much enjoyed!
I just about snarfed my coffee when I heard "if you haven't checked out my shorts, please do" lol. I half expected him to pop on screen with some James Reeves level shorts lol.
It was Shorts not shorts😉😄
It seems to me that you've reached the point of diminished returns at 20" maybe with a slower burning powder with near capacity charge weights the extra 4" could exploit some unused energy. It also seems to me the with the lighter bullets with presumably higher velocity in the bore are able to utilize a little more time spent in the barrel to reach a more complete burn, thus reaching higher velocities at the muzzle.
Good thoughts! Thanks!
For looks though the octagon barrel is hard to beat
Have a 44mag Rossi 92 Silver in 20” that I’ve been shooting SASS for 10 years, and I love it. Action was a bit rough out of the box but I was able to smooth things out myself with a bit of judicious polishing here and there. Have to keep an eye on the side screws as they tend to loosed. Love this rifle, though my shooting buddies laugh at me cuz the 6” leather thong I have in the saddle ring gets caught in the hammer sometimes…but I ain’t takin it off…I likes it too much. BTW…added the saddle ring myself. Had it custom made to match the stainless finish…looks awesome!
I have an R92 and out of the box it was terrible. It cycled terribly and would constantly jam. I polished the feed ramp and removed all burrs from the action. Now it's my favorite rifle and it now it ALWAYS cycles buttery smooth.
Your story really had a great ending! I too will be doing a little internal work on this gun, mostly to make it load more easily. Thanks for watching!
The minor blems you pointed out are... less than you're going to give it yourself just shooting and handling... I reckon. And as to the velocities, I don't find that disappointing. The 44 Mag after all is a pistol round and the propellants for it are pretty quick burning = just not a long enough burn to take advantage of the longer barrel length. The loads that did go faster probably had slower burning powder. Just a guess. Another great vid ! Keep em coming!
I have the Rossi 357 20" and love it !
Hi George. If you’re thinking of installing a tang sight on that Rossi you might want to check the tang is in line with the barrel. I had a Marbles tang sight fitted to my Winchester 94 (.357) by a gunsmith and while it’s dead centre on the tang I have to almost run out of windage adjustment to get it to shoot to point of aim. The tangs are not always flat either, which can tilt the sight one way or t’other, but I’m sure you know all of this anyway. Always a pleasure to watch your videos.
Thank you for your comment! Actually I never would have thought about the Tang being out of alignment with the barrel. I'll check it out.
Drift the front sight. 👌
@@greybone777 Yes, I could do that, but it looks even weirder and more obvious with the front sight drifted well over to the left in its dovetail. As long as I have enough adjustment left on the rear sight I’ll stay with that. Thanks for your comment 👍
Steve also makes a peep sight that fits into the safety hole on the bolt. I just don't know how well it works.
Thanks! I've seen that but would prefer the style of the marble arms Tang site.
Exactly what I was looking for. Local place has the 24" and a stainless 20" 44mag. The 20" barrel sure looks thin, maybe its just thinner to the 24" octagonal. Appreciate the comparison of several different brands in both barrel lengths.
About 11+ yrs ago I chronographed the Hornady 160gr LEVERevolution 30-30 ammo in my Marlin 20” barrel and my Winchester 24”. I shot 10 rounds through each of them and they both came out averaging 2465fps. As far as accuracy goes, the Marlin hated it and the Winchester loved it. To this day, from the bench and using a Williams Peep sight, I can still get 1.5” groups @100yds and I’ve taken a number of deer, a black bear and one cow elk with the Winchester.
So I wasn’t overly surprised with the first couple findings on your 44’s. The best I could figure out is the powder burn was completely done in my rifles and basically the bullet was only encountering friction on the last 4 inches in my Winchester.
Thanks. I really appreciate that comment. I too have had vastly different results with the Hornady FTX bullets. Some guns love them some hate them. But to their defense I have not done a definitive work to find out why. I just chose not to use them instead.
Sorry to here about the finish and fit flaws with the Rossi. I have never been impressed with 44 special because the cost is close to the 44 magnum. I just use reduced loads in 44 mag brass and lead bullets for plinkers.
The big advantage of owning a 357 /38 special is lower cost and versatility. Lower recoil and enough power for deer , hogs , coyotes at closer wood and brush ranges. The 38 special is like a big 22 on small edible game like rabbits and squirrels. A 38 hole in and 38 hole out.
Buffalo Bore had published similar results for some of their ammo, can’t remember if it was .44, .45 or what, but around 18 inches was ideal if my memory serves me correctly. I think more powder or slower burning powder would produce the results you are looking for. Just so much powder to burn in those short cases.
Question, will the Rossi action accommodate those longer 300+ grain .44 mag loads from BB?
Can’t really fault the gun for the disappointments you have. For the cosmetic stuff you could have walked away from the sale. Also, since you did not, it kind of shows why he would not come down on price. He clearly knew you were not willing to walk away from the sale over those cosmetic issues.
As far as the velocity, every load uses different powders with different burn rates which I’m sure you know. The only way to really use a 24” barrel length on a pistol caliber carbine for more velocity is hand loading with slower powders.
Simple the choice of powder. If I load with a slower powder I get an increase. The rounds were loaded for handguns
Thanks for your comment. I don't know what powder is used in the factory ammo, but in the Berry's handloads as well as my XTP handloads I used A2400. That is not a handgun powder.
@@TargetSuite look it up on a relative burning chart and see if you have a slightly slower powder for that bullet
I did. And the powders that I use are the slowest called out in all of the reloading manuals for 44 mag out of a rifle.
@@TargetSuite Well, there is a limit to the slowest powder for every cartridge.. I would guess that the max barrel length for speed would be 20-22 inches. It is likely the 20 inches but the longer sight radius and other factors make up for the lower speed. BTW I love my tang sights. I even have one vernier one on a 45-70 Gov Rolling Block
Thanks for all your comments. And you hinted at what I'm thinking, and that is that this is not a performance rifle it is going to be a fun rifle to lob slow-moving heavy bullets at extended ranges. So the longer Barrel is helpful whether or not it's generating more velocity. And thanks for your comments about the Tang site. I suspect by the end of the day I'll have one on order😉
I just got a new r92 357/38 octagon.The gun is perfect accept for 2 very small shadows in the bluing on one side , it is very hard to see. Other than that, the fit and finish is spot on.I am very pleased
That's fantastic. Congratulations. I think I have the same two shadows in the bluing.
Could you repeat/display or provide a link to the powders used with your reloads?
Also,, how critical are magnum vs large pistol primers. Both are very difficult ot find? Thanks!
Nice video. For rifles I’d suggest trying H4227 with 240 or heavier projectiles. If you cast, a gas checked (or powder coat) 240 might be the ticket. Some lever guns don’t feed all types of semi was cutters.
I noticed similar velocity issues with the .357 mag in a rifle. The revolver cartridges are generally optimized for use in a 6 inch barrel. Those fast powders probably run out of push before they run out of barrel. I did some testing with my hand loads and observed slower powders deliver better velocity out of the longer barrels. No extensive analysis. Just wondered why, and played a little.
Hey George; according to a friend at "Remington Ammunition", typical gains/ losses equal 10fps per inch of barrel length. Of course, that +/- figure is only applicable to their ammunition. Other manufactures offer +/- figures in the 15fps range. All of this is predicated on hunting ammunition that I've asked specifically about and not to hot loaded specialty ammunition. Where the 25fps per inch "rule of thumb" comes from I am unaware and I've never heard, or read, anything other than anecdotal evidence, that supports the "rule". That is why I asked for your demonstration. I suspect we, collectively, will learn something about velocity data between 20" to 24" barrel performance that is contrary to the "rule" as we've been told over the years. As always, thank you very much for you hard work and keep up the excellent job. I never fail to learn something as I enjoy watching the video work you produce. P.S. I am really looking forward to the "impressionism" artwork.
Thanks for your input Gregory. I'm sure there's a lot of questions we won't answer but it's a fun Journey nonetheless. Speaking of Journeys, I'm really looking forward to the impressions series. I probably should have started smaller and worked up but with smaller cans and lighter loads it will still be interesting. Just on a little smaller scale😄
Higher velocity can play hob with your group size and accuracy (barrel harmonics/whip issue usually) , so it's not necessarily desirable.
Hornady years ago publish velocity for there 45 Colt Leverevolution out of 5.5” barrel and 20”. The velocity wasn’t the significant increase I expected from a rifle so a called Hornady and one of there techs told me that the 45 Colt Leverevolution power charge was design specific for 45 Colt handguns. Basically he stated the load was running out of powder charge in. 20” barrel before it exited. I am would speculate that the cartridges your experiencing little velocity change with are maxed out in a 20” barrel and probably designed as a handgun load. Where as your hand loads, Buffalo Bore etc are loaded to max charges and have enough powder to be used in that 4” extra of barrel.
I think you have nailed it. There may also be some issues with chamber diameter and bore diameter but I think the biggest issue is how the cartridges were loaded.
My older Rossi (Puma) 16inch barreled 44 mag ..handled 44 Spl & 44 Russian
I think to have read in ‘The American Rifle’ that 50 fps was the expected difference between velocity and barrel lengths for every inch?
Could bullet diameter have caused the unexpected results?
Installed a Marble’s tang sight on a model 94. Put a 0.5” rear sight and a ‘folding’ front sight on the 26” barreled rifle. Use the folding sight for 25 yards, and dropping the front sight, the tang sight for 100 yards
I have the Marbles tang on my Rossi 92 44 and love it I also installed a few Steve's Gunz parts and slickened up the action
Thanks for your comment. I plan to go down the same path you did with my rossi.
I also applied the leather lever wraps and it really enhanced the visual of the rifle plus added some comfortability
A Williams Receiver Sight makes those things shoot sooo good without having to worry about the sight dropping or putting your eye out.
Great demonstration. I always enjoy you programs, especially with the 1892 clones. My favorite lever gun although I shoot an 1873 a lot. George
Barrel length is only helpful up to a point. Perhaps a longer burning or slower burning powder would help? I can see that if the powder burns off way before the bullet leaves barrel, that the friction of the last little bit would slow it down. I don't know if im correct or not but just seems like a good explanation.
You are correct about barrel length working against you. I actually demonstrated this with two target 22 rifles. Beyond about 16 in a standard 22 long rifle will begin to slow down due to friction in the bore. I suspect that was what was at Play in one of the loads I showed in this video. Thanks for the comment and thank you for watching!
Had one long ago switched to Chiappa Alaskan 44Mag and its an extrem upgrade for me.... allready over 300shoots. (Here in Europe we dont get Winchester Marlin and co so easy..)
Best Ammo for Rossi is Magtech, surpise surprise...(same company) Also Magtech is often very hot loaded and the 44Mag is very hot))
I have 2 trains of thought on the velocity question. It is possible that all of the powder is being burned up in the 20 inch barrel, so the 24 inch barrel wouldn't have an advantage. Or, is it possible that the 20 inch barrel is a little tighter than the 24 inch, and some of the pressure it blowing past the rounds, especially if the bullets are at the smaller end of the tolerance in the 24 inch.
Great thoughts. It's interesting that some of the loads saw no benefit even a degradation of velocity. But others saw a significant increase in velocity. So, I will be checking the bore and chamber diameters, but I also suspect that powder choice is a big part of those higher velocities. Just my $.02
Thanks for sharing George. This reinforces 20" as my favorite barrel length in a pistol cartridge rifle, for balance between usable powder burn/velocity, muzzle blast, mag capacity, and distance between the sights.
You are welcome. Yes my 20-in Barrel Winchester will still get the most love. This gun is going to be a relaxed casual shooter probably from a chair probably with a cold beverage nearby. Of course when I feature it on TH-cam I will be much more serious😉
The octagon barrel is way better looking of the two!
Quick unrelated question, has anyone else had trouble with loading these ? Should I just cut my ammo tube spring a little or is it going to get easier over time ?
This one is not too bad. But my 357 Rossi needed a jackhammer to get the last couple of rounds in. So I shortened that one a tad. But proceed as your own risk because Too Short is even worse😉
Great review Target Suite! I own the Rossi R95 Trapper 30 30 for my big game ventures here in Vermont. This rifle is excellent, and is comparable to any Marlin, Henry, etc., that I have ever owned. It's not fancy, just a work horse, but it's accurate, dependable, and good fit and finish.
I have a Henry big boy brass .44 with a 20 "octagon barrel. To say i love this rifle is correct. It will shoot almost anything accurate. 240 to 270 grns.i hand load all my rounds. And i am at max charge of imr 4227. The rifle likes it that way. It will almost keep 1" at 100yds. I have a 1-5 Leupold scope on mine . God bless. 😊
I finally got a Rossi R92 20" blued/wood 357 mag last week. And put 10 rounds in to check the operation and that was fine but I noticed that the blueing was coming off the loading gate after loading just 10 rds. So I looked at yours closely and noticed yours has the same problem. I have a Marlin 94 and a Uberti 1873 and there's no issues with the finish on the loading gates after years of shooting. I called Rossi and they said they haven't heard any other complaints and I could send the rifle into them to fix it. I asked "can't you just send me a new loading gate?" they wouldn't do that. I'm not going to send it back and have them put another one on that would have the same defect. So tried some cold blueing by Birchwood Casey and that came off too. So I'm disappointed in that aspect of the finishing quality, but otherwise a nice rifle for the money, good fit and finish and action feels pretty smooth too. Anybody else had issues with the loading gates blueing coming off?
Unfortunately, and you have discovered, as I have, there are compromises that we have to live with in the Rossi lever guns. But to get an affordable 1892 lever gun at this price I am okay with the lower "quality" bluing.
Anyone know where replacement bullet guides can be purchased? I have a 20 inch stainless round barrel that will not reliably release rounds out of the tube magazine, or feed 44mag or 44spl into the chamber. This was an issue when the gun was purchased new. Thx.
That's a great question. I've got an older model in 45 Colt that won't chamber anything. And it too has issues with the cartridge guides.
Hey George, do you think the Rossi has tighter rifling? Perhaps a cold hammer forged barrel in the Rossi, I hear those are slower.
That's a good question. I have recently contacted Rossi about some technical questions and I hear nothing in return. I don't know that they have any technical people here in the US to answer questions like that.
I think the main differences in velocities across the board are due to the differences in the powders and the bullet weights used by the manufacturers. Since you are handloading it would be nice to see a test of a fast burning pistol powder, a medium burn rate powder and a slow burning rifle powder, using the same weight and manufacturer of bullet across the board for the test with the 20" and 24" barrell's. My loading manuals all list 44 magnum (pistol) and 44 magnum (rifle) seperately. I have read that the factory rounds are designed to work as best as they can be made to in both pistols and rifles. So I would guess the factory rounds use a medium burn rate powder that will function in both a pistol and a rifle. As a handloader you can tailor your recipie for either of the two. It would be my bet the long burning rifle powders would greatly outperform the pistol powders in either rifle but give an advantage in velocity to the 24" over the 20" barrel especially as you aproach the high end of the load charts. One thing I have noticed with handloding Berry's is that the copper plating is not sufficiently thick enough to prevent them from leading barrels when pushed to the higher end of the charts they are not copper jacketed they are electrolosis plated and should be loaded using the cast lead bullet chart not the jacketed bullet chart or staying on the low end of the jacketed bullet charts. Just my findings with having used Berry's in several pistols and rifles myself and leading several barrels up badly by pushing them too fast. They however are really great at lower velocities in both of my 500 magnum pistols and my 44 magnum pistols. I have not had good luck yet with them in my 44 Henry rifle and because of that I have not tried them in any other rifles mainly because I already have pet loads for them using jacketed bullets that I know perform well without leading up my barrels. I hate trying to clean lead out of barrels.
the tang peep is pretty classy, but I just put a small square patch of electrical tape with a 1/16" clean punch hole onto my right glasses lens. Always perfectly in line with e my natural head position every time. Also, if you have corrective lenses, it will automatically be at the correct optical distance from your eye. Your glasses will correct the target image while the peep corrects the sight image at the same time. Costs about a penny, can be easily peeled off and stuck to your gun box or even on the receiver for later use. Easy to replace in a second. Takes but a few minutes to fuss it onto the right spot on the lens but it will usually be way up in the upper left, against the frame. You won't even see it when looking around. Works just a well on plain safety glasses.
I like the rossi 92 in 45 long colt, however for 44 mag I went with the Henry Big Boy and its a thumper especially with the hardcast and +P type rounds.
Is there much difference in felt recoil on the 24 inch barrel vs the 20 inch barrel in .44 mag?
I Worked in a gun store for several years and I sold a hundred Rossi carbines.
People would ask about them and I would explain the the gun was designed by a genius, built of modern steel on c&c machinery
to exacting tolerances. In a country where people can work for less.
That's why they can sell them at a reasonable price.
The other reason that keeps the price low is that you don't get much hand fitting of parts or hand polishing of the action. You can let it wear in over time or pay a gunsmith to do an action job on it or learn to do it yourself.
Thanks the difference between a thousand dollar Browning and a $500 Rossi.
I sold a ton of them and none ever came back.
John Davis Jax Fl
Thanks John. I appreciate the input of one with your background.
The last Rossi .357 lever gun I saw, about 4 months ago, was priced at $820.00. It sold, but not to me.
@@Salieri47 it's not that the guns worth more, it's that our dollar is worth less.
Was it a hot day? Was the ammo warm, because those 180 grains were about 150 fps faster than normal. Otherwise, it appears that the standard factory ammo has a magnum pistol powder that completely burns up in 20" barrel. The ones that had an increase in the 24" must have a slower powder, possibly IMR 4227 (or a fast rifle powder) that can take advantage of the longer barrel. However they are still far less energetic than the factory ammo.
It was a hot day. Probably in the mid-90s when I did the chronograph work. And I think you are spot on. The ones that saw a velocity increase had to have a powder that was formulated for a longer Barrel.
Just a guess- slower burning powder would gain more velocity in longer barrel!?
.44 Magnum is a pistol round. Typically pistol rounds are designed around short barrels. I know that a 9mm, for example, increases velocity in longer barrels up to about 12 inches, then it starts to slow down, the powder being burned, the extra barrel length just adds friction. I suspect you could tailor a powder/bullet combination for a slower burn to optimize the longer barrel.
You hit the nail on the head. And I will try to find a powder bullet combo that will utilize more of that Barrel length. But slower burning powders typically don't pack enough energy by volume to offer an advantage in the small space allotted by Pistol cartridges. But, that doesn't prevent me from trying😉
@@TargetSuite I have some right spicy loads out of an 1894 using W296 or A9.
Magnum rifle primer and IMR 4198.
I have a Miroku Winchester 92 with a 20" barrel (twin actually) and a Marlin 1894 Cowboy with a 24" barrel in 44 mag. The 24" Marlin was consistently gaining 50 FPS or so over the Miroku. Different rate of twist, I believe, but still. H110 22 gr I believe.
Beautiful rifle, my wife bought me a 45/70 brass framed Henry octogan barrel.
My research indicates that the average handgun powder is all burnt up after about 17 inches. After 17 inches the bullet is slowing down due to friction.
What are the bullets you mentioned are they Bears (sp) bullets? Where can they be bought?😊
I have seen impressive testing from Ruger M77/44 rifles , 18.5 " RE: Vel. . I think 20" is the sweet spot for Lever rifles . The 24 " may shoot better with open sights ??
That 125 grain copper at 2500 ft per second is really impressive! Being that that's a copper fluid transfer do you think it would work well with deer? Do you know anybody that's actually used it for hunting? You would have a really flat trajectory and a lot more range. I wonder what velocity you have to maintain to achieve the fluid transfer because I know those bullets do not mushroom? Interesting as always thank you 👍
Hi George
I’ve just read about 400 comments, you may not get much F.P.S. Increase with the 24” barrel but my experience are that the loudness is decreased substantially compared to a 16” barrel 44 magnum. If you’re sitting at a bench in the back 40 lobbing a box of ammo, it may not make much of a difference since you’ll be wearing hearing protection but people a quarter mile away or deer during archery season may respond differently. Maybe.
I have a single shot CVA in 44 magnum that I use for hunting sometimes and I cut it down from 22 inches down to 16 1/2 inches to be able to get through thick brush and also fit in a small blind better. The CVA is very accurate but it is much louder than when it was at 22”.
Adding a different perspective ,Dave.
Thanks Dave. It's good to get a "fresh" response👍👍
When I cut the CVA 5.5” off of 22”. My near max loads of 300 grain copper with H110 printed a few inches lower at 200 yds.
I was guessing that it was mostly due to reduced fps. I don’t have a cronnie. Maybe barrel harmonics and muzzle crown are help effecting it printing lower.
@@davidedward13nothing wrong with your perspective but any rifle, regardless of how loud at the muzzle, unless it’s suppressed and shooting near subsonic loads, can/will spook game. Plus if you’re the only one in the woods trying to be quiet, it’s noble but no one else around you is going to care…they’re going to shoot whatever they brought…likely an inappropriate target gun in some hyper velocity cartridge with a tanker style muzzle brake on the end that shakes the forest and deafens all around it…to shoot a deer at 50 yards.
A tang site would probably help with long distance shooting. Aperture sites are nice for distance but the buckhorn site is great for quick, close shots. What kind of range do you think you can accurately get with a .44 mag.? My lever is a .25-35 and I also used to have a .30-30 both Winchesters. I did fire a .44-40 replica 40 yrs ago. Don’t remember the make. He’d gotten it through Dixie Gun Works I believe. That rifle seemed a bit anemic for anything past 100 yds but it wasn’t the most accurate rifle I ever fired. You still did a good job of destroying that homney can and that’s the best use for homney in my opinion.
Your powder is burning off before the bullet is passing somewhere in your barrel. Not sure where because it could be that case in both rifles, but, that 4 inches is significant enough to allow the shorter barrel to push the bullet out faster. That goes for the rounds where there is little to no deviation, though there would be less travel to the end of the barrel vs the rounds where the 20 inch barrel is over 100 feet faster. Otherwise there will be at least some significant increase in bullet speed. This is why they shortened the barrels on the M4A2s to 10 inches for SF guys that shoot the heavy bullets in order to better suppress the report of the cartridge when they were testing the 300 blkout. They stuck with the 10" barrel and heavy bullet when they decided to go with the 6.8 round (a mistake if you ask me as the 6.5 grendel is ballisticly a far superior round with 7.62 type numbers past 500 yards as the bullet is so efficient it carries it's energy and speed better from 500 to 1000 meters over the 7.62). You dont want to give up any efficiency in a gunfight.
A bit of sarcasm here but I usually drop my new gun or bang it against something ON PURPOSE just to get it over with they all get banged up eventually if you actually use them. Why I prefer used stuff it already has character instead of perfection. Good enough for me.
Haha! I don't have to worry about that on this one. It comes pre-banged. When I first saw this gun at the store it was hanging on the wall. When I went back to buy it it was back on a counter and had some stuff piled around it. I'm pretty sure the damage happened at the gun store. But I really didn't care because I wanted it for personal use and to get this video out. I had promised this a long time ago.
Not strange at all. Pistol powders usually burn fast and max velocity will be met long before the end of 24" barrel. Some of the magnum powders burn slower and the gasses will still be expanding at the end of a 24" pipe.
I think a real sweet spot in the Rossi lineup is the 16” barrel R92 in 44mag with the skinner peep and picatinny rail forward of the action. The one with the large loop with paracord wrap. I could see putting a red dot on that and being a happy hunter out to about 100 yards, but most opportunities for where I hunt are around 50 yards.
I’ve been eyeballing the 454 Casull one though…not that I need it, but I sure do want it!
I love this channel. Probably bore and chamber dimensions vary. That volume may be enough to cause pressure drop on the long barrel. It makes sense to me that when everything is pushed to maximum, that is where you stand a chance of gaining from the extra length, as the time under pressure beats out the volume increase effect. Fantastic experiment, thank you.
Thank you. I appreciate your input! And thanks for watching!
Here is a load that works great for plinking in my Uberti/Winchester 1873 .44 Mag 200 gr. plated Xtreme loaded with 9 gr. Unique. About like a top end .44-40
Straight wall cartridges are by far less barrel-lenght related than bottle-necks. In most cases you will not see much velocity increase After 16-18 inch. "Ballistics by the inch"
Ballistics as measured by the LabRadar showed two loads that were 170-ish fps faster out of the longer barrel. And my more recent vid with this 24" Rossi revealed a bore that was .003" larger than the SAAMI spec. So, the big question in my mind is why some loads really seemed to benefit from the longer barrel, and some didnt🤔
Possibly it's as simple as the
Trying this again
Maybe it's as simple as the bearing surfaces on the bullets fitting the bore better
Have model 92 in 44 mag since 2013. Start with the bad first.
Only 2 things did not like when and after I bought it was only half of a loading door on it. Obvously knew about it when I bought it.
But did not know about this. Then after I shot it the 1st few times, don't like sights on it. Don't get me wrong they are good out to 50 yards, but longer shots then 50 yards not very good.
Other then that very good rifle, nice and light, actually 1 of the best I have. At the time thought I was paying to much $$$. But comparing other post and the gun prices now days I got a great deal on it.
At least it sounds like there's a happy ending to that sad story
Is the lack of velocity gains a powder thing?
Good morning.... Nice shooting.... I looked at the rifle ... Before I bought my Henry Big Boy 44.... The safety on the Rossie and the wood stocks seemed cheaper than I liked... Then I seen they are no longer AMERICAN Made. So that helped my decision on Buying my Henry.... Thanks for the video.
Thanks for your comment! As far as I know , Rossi rifles have always been made in Brazil. And they have been through quite a few changes in quality. I'm glad they are on the uptick right now. Thanks for watching.
@@TargetSuite Yes, Rossi was originally from Brazil, then got taken over by Taurus (also in Brazil) and is now owned and manufactured by CBC (also in Brazil).
When comparing Henry, Marlin, Winchester, Uberti and Rossi, we should never forget that the Rossi are substantially lower cost than the other ones. I don't know about the US, but here in Germany, Rossi is literally half the price of the others. For what they are, they are really good rifles that shoot well. They are not as luxurious as the others.
Have you ever tested a 16 inch. Barrel ? I have heard that some 44 mag. Is made for a 7 inch barrel .
I am no professional but what's happening is, it's a pistol caliber made for a short barrel. So in the rile length barrel your getting a complete powder burn so the gains are minimal after 16 to 20 inches. Your reaching the maximum velocity in less than 24 inches
Ive got the new 357mag same gun worked a good accurate with blue dot refinish the stock and replaced horn sights with ladder sights try the 158 Remington 38pp , for the 44 try 300 gr. BULLETS vary accurate in 44 rifle! Regardless of speed clover leaf accuracy is what i prefer!
As others mentioned with some loads the optimal velocity may be reached in a shorter barrel, 'But'. Even when of the same length length not all barrels are equal. You should have seen some significant velocity increase with an extra 4 inches of barrel. Variations in chamber, rifling, and other dimensions could all be important. My guess is if you cut 4 inches off of the 24 inch barrel it will shoot slower than the other barrel.
For a 44 mag the only reason for a 24 inch barrel is for a longer magazine tube or longer sighting radius. Now for a 25-35 with reloads and slow powder I can see the wisdom of a longer barrel, but then it has been a long time since anyone to my knowledge has made a 25-35 rifle.
Haven't red the other comments but here's a thought. The only time a longer barrel is going to produce higher velocity is when all the powder is consumed in both barrels. If a larger charge is fired through a short barrel the excess powder does nothing to propell the bullet it simply makes a large flash at the muzzel.
Thanks for your comment. And the problem with pistol caliber rounds in a rifle is there's just not enough volume in the case to fill it full of slower burning powder which will generate pressure over a longer period of time resulting in higher velocity. So there is a point of diminishing returns. I'm hoping I can experiment a little bit and find out what some of those premium rounds are doing to get higher velocity out of a longer barrel. Thanks for your comment and thanks for watching!
May i ask where in houston you found it? Im in houston and been wanting the r92 in 357
As far as the velocity, it could be the quicker burning powder kept the bullets at the same velocity, and a slower burn rate could have increased the velocity in the longer barrel. Just a thought!
Hi from France, Rossi 44 mag works well with 240 grs FMJ or FMJ-SP with 44 mag load !
Wow! It's great to hear from you. I didn't know I had viewers from France. Thanks for your comment!
I have a Henry 22 and a Rossi pump 22(plastic)...... shooting wise the Rossi stands up to the Henry
I've been looking at getting 357/44 lever action and since Rossi is a couple hundred dollars less, that's the way I'm leaning
I might notice the marks in the wood.....I really don't think that has to do with the brand, probably the dealer
I was a little uneasy seeing the headline of the video. Glad to find out the gun itself was ok, other than the nicks from the dealer. He should've at least given you a 10% discount!
Thanks for watching. The uneasy headline was intentional. It's just part of trying to get people's attention. And I agree the dealer could have made some concession, but he probably knew I was going to walk out with that gun regardless. I had been in to look at it before😉
@@TargetSuite Try the diversion tactic next time. Pick out something else to buy and then slip in the one you want for a discount. 😉
Why should the dealer discount it? These guns are in high demand.
@@jimcarney6115 Nothing ventured nothing gained. No harm in trying.
@@jimcarney6115 Heck, all they can do is to say, "No". Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Always worth a try, that's the fun of bargaining.
The issue with a perfect gun , the first nick is so painful . Pitty the person that makes the first ding if it's not You !! You hate to have any people touch it . Now , it came with the 1st & 2nt ding ... feel free to take out in the field or let other people shoot it , it will gain more battle scars & character with use & age !!
Oh yes. Having it pre-dinged is a plus😄 Trips to the range can be much more relaxing now.
How did the 300 grain bullet do in the Rossi? As far as accuracy? Do they stabilize?
What you're seeing in the video is the vast majority of the rounds that I have fired through that gun so far. Once I get the Tang site installed I will do some accuracy work and report on that.
In some areas, a 4" increase is a big thing, when it comes to performance. Great video...thanks!
If the powder completely burns in the shorter barrel, then there will be no increase in the longer barrel.
Very good video again George! Love the guns! Others have commented on likely reasons/scenarios of speed comparisons to cover most likely situations that have occurred. No matter what though you probably had a good time and that’s where it’s at my friend!😊
Good times . . . ayyyymen!
Plated bullets have a velocity ceiling. The powder burn rate is definitely a factor also
Thanks! I was a couple hundred feet per second below the velocity ceiling for the berries bullets. But you are right about the burn rate. That is a major factor.
Bought a Ranch Hand in .44 Mag and put a regular butt stock on it. Added a Skinner rear sight and it's good to go as a camp gun.
Wait until you find out the Henry's 44mag mares leg with a 12inch barrel has faster velocity than your 20inch. Theres videos proving it.
Possible getting 1800+ velocity out of a 240gr since its at the optimal barrel length to powder to cartridge size.
All 3 matter, and have a theoretical best combination
Have Marble peep sights on my Uberti 92 and 94. Love them. Even have one each of the various length sights for my 1885 High Wall. Interesting that the longer barrel did not produce any significant difference in fps for most rounds. Any thoughts why! What about decreased pressures due to bore or chamber diameters?
Make sure your comment Doug! I've heard that Rossi chambers are sometimes oversized. In the near future I will be slugging that chamber and the bore to see if there's any anomaly there.
@@TargetSuite Let us know what you find George. Rebarrel in the future?
Great video ! But I’ll stick with my Rossi round barrel 20 inch. Great little gun.
Thank you Michael! Your 20-in Barrel is definitely more practical. I have one as well.
@@TargetSuite Thanks: mike
Hornady flex tip. That would be my choice bullet. It has a higher coefficient.
You just bought a rifle that was "pre-dinged" as the Tappert Brothers would say.
Haha! I like that. And coming pre-dinged sure does make those early trips to the range more relaxing😄
Further proof that the .45 Colt is the ONLY way to go! :))) Either that, or the fact that most commercial loads are optimized for barrels shorter than 24 inches. I'll stick with the first hypothesis.
There's a joke in there somewhere about, "Hominy shots does it take George to blow up a can?"
From now on, you'll be known as, "Two-Can George."
Thanks for making this nearly grown man smile.
Tom, I have to say your comments are the most entertaining. And buried in all of your favoritism to the 45 Colt is some usable wisdom and encouragement😄
@@TargetSuite I’d shoot the 45 Colt all day long over the 44 mag.
Maybe someday we'll shoot together. Who knows?
@@TargetSuite Would love to!
@@TargetSuite What got me to appreciate the .45 Colt was the fact that it can get pretty much the same "work" done as the .44 Mag but at lower pressures. Less stress on gun and shooter, excepting Buffalo Bore's offerings.
Are those the kind of wood dings they say to lift out with a hot iron?
Great question Ken. And they probably are.. But that technique works best on bare wood. I'm afraid the application of steam on this type of finish would result in hazing or bubbling.
@@TargetSuite It could use a nicer finish anyway.
Tim you hit the nail on the head burn rates,,
I’ve got the tang mounted peep sight on my Rossi. both me and my old eyes really like it.
👍👍
Have the same only in stainless steel, in fact most of my Rossi’s are stainless (38/37, 44(20” & 24”) 45 Colt and 45/410 revolver carbines) also have 45 Colt and 45-70 blued. Like the stainless much better, seem smoother right out the box then blued, don’t know if they pay more attention to the stainless or because of the surface of stainless is just naturally smoother. But I do know that my Rossi’s are some of the sweetest levers I own and just FYI I do own Winchester, Marlin, Mossberg, Henry and Uberti levers. God Bless Texas 🤙🏼❤️🇺🇸🤠
I think you are right about stainless being smother. The 454 I shot a couple of weeks ago was definitely better than this one. And yes, GBT!
@@TargetSuite Where did you find a 454, the only Rossi I don’t have and really really want.😜🤙🏼❤️🇺🇸🤠
Bore/chamber/headspace differences creating different chamber pressures? Great video. Did you control for barrel temp?
Thanks for your comment Andy! And I did not allow the guns to cool off completely between "groups". Maybe something to cover in another vid 😉
Bore/chamber/headspace difference was my thought as well.