Paul can not feel bad about not answering all questions because he is the #1 most engaged CEO in consumer electronics answering a ton of audio questions personally. Really, there is nobody like him on this matter and it's one reason his brand deserves a lot of credit.
Agreed I don’t know any other founder doing it in and out yes I’m sure he has some money behind him to fund his interests in other stuff like photography etc but he’s still with us here. Octave, ps, and Paul’s personal life here he is. Hey he’s the reason I own PS audio lol. And some other stuff just don’t tell him. Ha ha ha nah seriously though the entire team are there with you and I love the idea in some 50 years time if I’m not here my daughter would be able to get her amp fixed and go another 50 years LOL.
Pau's videos definitely influenced me into trying out his products. I now own many, and I am a true fan. I thought I had good sound systems until I experienced PS Audio, now most of my other stuff has been demoted to other rooms other than my main listening room.
Like others, these discussion of gain vs wattage have helped me understand. Worth also noting that the discussion of volume is further complicated by the actual volume control. They will all be logarithmic, but there is no standard here as well. Best just to think of the volume control as an arbitrary knob to control volume and the numbers likely mean nothing.
@Paul - I have to say, I’ve been into audio it seems like my whole half a century of life but never understood this concept until I watched your video here. Eureka…I now understand why my amplifier at twice the output spec sounds only as loud as my other amp of the same gain, at the same volume setting on my preamp. Hats off to you Paul, since I can now share this with the many I speak to in this hobby. Cheers.
The reality is the output of the amp is determined by voltage. The higher the voltage, the higher the watts you put into the system. The gain of an amp is predetermined and most amps are within the ballpark of each other. So with the gain being fixed, the output voltage determines the outcome. More volts equals more watts. For you to have to turn your amp up means that you’re increasing the output voltage. It’s pretty normal to set your amp to a high output voltage so that you can experience full dynamic range.
I had a problem with matching gain with my Stellar 300 and Emotiva BasX amps that were doing what you're describing and I just couldn't enjoy the 2 sets of speakers evenly the way I wanted until I got myself 2 Shiit SYS passive preamp potentiometer volume controls. Like Paul likes to say it was an easy peasy fix. Thanks for the better understanding and breakdown Paul. It helps as always 👍
Agree with @DeVoN420zz below, what's really needed is to maximize response and dynamic range with as few drivers as possible and reasonable cabinet size. So make a great speaker with one tweeter, one mid (which he has, choosing planars) and get bass with a combo of 8" woofer with good transient response and then a sub to get really low. More drivers with more power (all other things being equal) can produce more dB, but really needed for really large room (or say a wedding venue), and most folks simply don't listen to music in a mini concert hall.
I think that confusion is next: from where comes the difference when voltage gains are the same for different rated amplifiers? I assume it is current since P=IxU [W]. So I asked the same question but on impact of current to the sound. I assume the current is important when you drive floorstander with many drivers and generally, speaker with low impedance dips. I learned that watching but still not sure did I understood it correct.
on a normal amplifier the current is just determined by how low or high impedence the speaker basically, the amplifier doesn't control the current until it's too much for the components and something breaks, if it can't conduct enough and things don't break or the overcurrent protection kicks in. how much actual current will go gets way trickier with a speaker though because it depends on what the cone is doing and how much it is resisting (or isn't resisting being pushed by the air in the speaker back) and isn't linear through the range. it(speaker) has an impedance rating across the frequency range but that too doesn't tell the whole story since what it is now can depend on what the speaker is playing, so reality is just that there's quite a bit of buffer current capability in amplifiers. generally if the speaker has a 4 ohm rating it should be fine to run with an amplifier with a 4 ohm rating on it. an amp will generally run at least to 2 if not pushed very hard though even if it has a 4 ohm rating on it, it just starts risking or taxing the componentry. much lower ohms than that because the current still goes up even while the voltage is low will probably cause destruction, even if you're playing at a low volume, because there's some components inside the amplifier that get fried from amps and not from total watts passing through it (that's what a fuse generally does too).
Yes, I understand fluctuation of the impedance and power is the way to answer it but if the voltage is set, then the current is the difference. So 30dB of gain for the two different rated amps is the difference in capability to drive that voltage with a sufficient current if the impedance drop? The other thing is the attenuation of the signal through the pot so that gain is only out if pot is turned on entirely. Otherwise it is attenuated. Many of us are asking what difference you get with more powerful amp in terms of sound. I understood that you need more power for quicker response and for demanding speakers. And of course if you want to set up the amp to work in optimal region of low distroted power like in motor vehicle where you rarely use peak power.
Kind of wish he would have gone into setting up an amp with gain control. I do mine by ear but I'm sure there is some special audiophile way. Is it better to have the gain up and the volume down or the gains down and the volume up? I personally like to keep the gains back with the volume up but I always feel like I am leaving a lot on the table. You pop in a low level recorded CD and you so want to turn the gains up but next come the loud CD and you want them back down.
No one ever talks about current. Most amplifiers were putting out 10-20 amps when (I believe) a lot more was needed. More current=stronger 🧲 field= more signal carried.
great video! let me explain those speakers your standing near, if those drivers are all identical then that's pretty much bad engineering and a scam but does look nice, 4 identical speakers and passive radiators quadrupoles the power requirement but only increases the volume DB a little bit, it requires a complicated crossover network that degrades the signal, and wont really improve the frequency response, 1 good driver always sounds better than 4 lower quality ones especially when there all in the same spot, a known fact that you need about 10 or 12 speakers with phase canceling to actually be twice as loud, A better speaker is much better idea, for example a single 8 inch woofer, with a 100 watts you would need 10 or 12 of these to be as loud as one that's 400 or 500 watts,
And yet some reviewers believe an amplifier needs a certain amount of volts at the input regardless of the gain of the amplifier to achieve maximum output. No theme reviews you really need to study basic electronics.
@@dangerzone007 Agree, except for amps with horrible damping factor where the output impedance is so low that the output voltage drops at loads of near 4 Ohms. A damping factor of 1 would mean you lost half the voltage at a nominal impedance load. But such amp would be horrible for other reasons such as voice coil damping being poor or impedance curve impacting frequency response.
“The preamp has an output of 2 volts, while the power amp seems to require 3.5 volts. Could this be the issue?” YES, that IS indeed part of the issue. If you cannot provide the power amplifier with the required 3.5 volts at the input, you will not be able to get the full 350 watts at the output. This is why your two amps amps seem to be putting out the same amount of power. Paul, you got this one wrong.
![[TH] 2024 PMSL SEA GF D1 | Summer | แข่งที่ไทย ต้องใส่ให้สุด](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Jkuf7nCS7jI/mqdefault.jpg)
Paul can not feel bad about not answering all questions because he is the #1 most engaged CEO in consumer electronics answering a ton of audio questions personally. Really, there is nobody like him on this matter and it's one reason his brand deserves a lot of credit.
true, i cannot hardly name another audio CEO much less one who engages like Paul.
Agreed I don’t know any other founder doing it in and out yes I’m sure he has some money behind him to fund his interests in other stuff like photography etc but he’s still with us here. Octave, ps, and Paul’s personal life here he is. Hey he’s the reason I own PS audio lol. And some other stuff just don’t tell him. Ha ha ha nah seriously though the entire team are there with you and I love the idea in some 50 years time if I’m not here my daughter would be able to get her amp fixed and go another 50 years LOL.
Very good point, well said.
Agreed and he has my respect. If I could afford his products I would buy an amp and pre am from PS Audio. Now off I go to buy a lottery ticket.
Pau's videos definitely influenced me into trying out his products. I now own many, and I am a true fan. I thought I had good sound systems until I experienced PS Audio, now most of my other stuff has been demoted to other rooms other than my main listening room.
Like others, these discussion of gain vs wattage have helped me understand.
Worth also noting that the discussion of volume is further complicated by the actual volume control. They will all be logarithmic, but there is no standard here as well. Best just to think of the volume control as an arbitrary knob to control volume and the numbers likely mean nothing.
@Paul - I have to say, I’ve been into audio it seems like my whole half a century of life but never understood this concept until I watched your video here. Eureka…I now understand why my amplifier at twice the output spec sounds only as loud as my other amp of the same gain, at the same volume setting on my preamp. Hats off to you Paul, since I can now share this with the many I speak to in this hobby. Cheers.
The reality is the output of the amp is determined by voltage. The higher the voltage, the higher the watts you put into the system. The gain of an amp is predetermined and most amps are within the ballpark of each other. So with the gain being fixed, the output voltage determines the outcome. More volts equals more watts. For you to have to turn your amp up means that you’re increasing the output voltage. It’s pretty normal to set your amp to a high output voltage so that you can experience full dynamic range.
as someone who asked a question through the wrong form that never got directly answered but got answered eventually, don't worry about it
Thank you for sending the fr10’s to Erin’s Audio Corner
Great rundown Paul!! 😊
I never thought about it but that explanation makes perfect sense!
Jumping off this topic; I’ve been in the car stereo industry for almost 25 years. I keep telling people that “gain is not a volume control”.
I had a problem with matching gain with my Stellar 300 and Emotiva BasX amps that were doing what you're describing and I just couldn't enjoy the 2 sets of speakers evenly the way I wanted until I got myself 2 Shiit SYS passive preamp potentiometer volume controls. Like Paul likes to say it was an easy peasy fix. Thanks for the better understanding and breakdown Paul. It helps as always 👍
Finally I did understand it, thank you Paul!
"Up, up, up, up, erhhhhuuuuh" - that's the amp rooster when thinking 2am is the real morning, then ooops 🙃
Thank you Sir, For the Good explanation about Amplifier Gain... God bless!
I love the looks of those white speakers. It makes me think of a Stormtrooper.
Agree with @DeVoN420zz below, what's really needed is to maximize response and dynamic range with as few drivers as possible and reasonable cabinet size. So make a great speaker with one tweeter, one mid (which he has, choosing planars) and get bass with a combo of 8" woofer with good transient response and then a sub to get really low. More drivers with more power (all other things being equal) can produce more dB, but really needed for really large room (or say a wedding venue), and most folks simply don't listen to music in a mini concert hall.
I can’t wait to join the PSAudio family!!!!
I think that confusion is next: from where comes the difference when voltage gains are the same for different rated amplifiers? I assume it is current since P=IxU [W]. So I asked the same question but on impact of current to the sound. I assume the current is important when you drive floorstander with many drivers and generally, speaker with low impedance dips. I learned that watching but still not sure did I understood it correct.
on a normal amplifier the current is just determined by how low or high impedence the speaker basically, the amplifier doesn't control the current until it's too much for the components and something breaks, if it can't conduct enough and things don't break or the overcurrent protection kicks in.
how much actual current will go gets way trickier with a speaker though because it depends on what the cone is doing and how much it is resisting (or isn't resisting being pushed by the air in the speaker back) and isn't linear through the range. it(speaker) has an impedance rating across the frequency range but that too doesn't tell the whole story since what it is now can depend on what the speaker is playing, so reality is just that there's quite a bit of buffer current capability in amplifiers.
generally if the speaker has a 4 ohm rating it should be fine to run with an amplifier with a 4 ohm rating on it. an amp will generally run at least to 2 if not pushed very hard though even if it has a 4 ohm rating on it, it just starts risking or taxing the componentry.
much lower ohms than that because the current still goes up even while the voltage is low will probably cause destruction, even if you're playing at a low volume, because there's some components inside the amplifier that get fried from amps and not from total watts passing through it (that's what a fuse generally does too).
Yes, I understand fluctuation of the impedance and power is the way to answer it but if the voltage is set, then the current is the difference. So 30dB of gain for the two different rated amps is the difference in capability to drive that voltage with a sufficient current if the impedance drop? The other thing is the attenuation of the signal through the pot so that gain is only out if pot is turned on entirely. Otherwise it is attenuated. Many of us are asking what difference you get with more powerful amp in terms of sound. I understood that you need more power for quicker response and for demanding speakers. And of course if you want to set up the amp to work in optimal region of low distroted power like in motor vehicle where you rarely use peak power.
Kind of wish he would have gone into setting up an amp with gain control. I do mine by ear but I'm sure there is some special audiophile way. Is it better to have the gain up and the volume down or the gains down and the volume up? I personally like to keep the gains back with the volume up but I always feel like I am leaving a lot on the table. You pop in a low level recorded CD and you so want to turn the gains up but next come the loud CD and you want them back down.
makes sense to me
so gain = loudness with any amplifier regardless of the input sensitivity?
No one ever talks about current. Most amplifiers were putting out 10-20 amps when (I believe) a lot more was needed. More current=stronger 🧲 field= more signal carried.
"these go to eleven"
-- Nigel Tufnel
great video! let me explain those speakers your standing near, if those drivers are all identical then that's pretty much bad engineering and a scam but does look nice, 4 identical speakers and passive radiators quadrupoles the power requirement but only increases the volume DB a little bit, it requires a complicated crossover network that degrades the signal, and wont really improve the frequency response, 1 good driver always sounds better than 4 lower quality ones especially when there all in the same spot, a known fact that you need about 10 or 12 speakers with phase canceling to actually be twice as loud, A better speaker is much better idea, for example a single 8 inch woofer, with a 100 watts you would need 10 or 12 of these to be as loud as one that's 400 or 500 watts,
I thought Rotel was great until I heard everything else
Oh man… I get aneurysms and nosebleeds trying to explain this simple formula to people who just do not understand. 😂😂
And yet some reviewers believe an amplifier needs a certain amount of volts at the input regardless of the gain of the amplifier to achieve maximum output. No theme reviews you really need to study basic electronics.
Why does your voice have so much reverb?
Power is just a result of load and output voltage. It's just Ohm's Law. Not sure why people struggle with this.
Uh. Depending on the imp of the speaker.but yes..
The impedance of the speaker should not affect the voltage gain.
@@dangerzone007 Agree, except for amps with horrible damping factor where the output impedance is so low that the output voltage drops at loads of near 4 Ohms. A damping factor of 1 would mean you lost half the voltage at a nominal impedance load. But such amp would be horrible for other reasons such as voice coil damping being poor or impedance curve impacting frequency response.
Why is asr so mean to you?
Because ASR listens to measurements and not music.
“The preamp has an output of 2 volts, while the power amp seems to require 3.5 volts. Could this be the issue?”
YES, that IS indeed part of the issue. If you cannot provide the power amplifier with the required 3.5 volts at the input, you will not be able to get the full 350 watts at the output. This is why your two amps amps seem to be putting out the same amount of power. Paul, you got this one wrong.