Great work. I’ve lived in Melbourne for 10 years and still find the loop confusing. But the stations have retained their 80s charm and the wide passageways showed some foresight by the designers.
How is the loop confusing? When I lived in Footscray before moving to Brisbane I always knew which direction the train was going. I've never been confused using the city loop.
@@Taitset it is confusing for people who aren't used to it. I grew up in Melbourne, so I just took the operations for granted. Thanks for pointing out all the oddities that I'd never noticed.
As a melbournian, im used to the chaos and even love it! But it is very confusing if youre not prepared and ive helped many people get to where they were going when they looked a bit lost in the CBD. Fantastic video!!
I remember the before times, when peering through the hoardings around the Loop works was a part of every trip into the city. When the Loop opened, it was as though a mystic portal had materialised, allowing easier access to places that teenaged me would have otherwise had to walk to. Now, the new works are rekindling the anticipation of discovery
Lived in Melbourne for the last 27 years and the city loop has always perplexed me with how strange it ran thank you for the fantastic explanation for how this all runs
Ahh the memories. My cousins were a railway family, Uncle Ken being an architect-designer for VR. Subsequently when I used to head to Melbourne for school holidays at my cousins in Eltham, we used to travel the network into the city regularly by ourselves, so long as we were back before streetlights came on. I remember playing in 'The Loop' when it was being built. My cousins were very familiar with it and the network as a whole. We ran freely, most of the staff knew my cousins and so long as we used common sense we had the run on the whole place. Jeez the memories...the adventure...it was really something for a country kid l Iike me.
I live in Sydney but as I write this I'm in Melbourne on a short holiday. Been here plenty of times before and I am still utterly confused about the city loop and this video while interesting still leaves me scratching my head lol
Infrastructure Victoria has recently recommended reconfiguring the City Loop to create bi-directional thru-routes between Craigieburn to Frankston, and Upfield to Glen Waverley. All that is required is two new little tunnel segments between North Melbourne and Flagstaff, and Richmond and Parliament. This will solve soooo many of the Loop's problems! Maybe you can cover this proposal in a Part 2 video?
Good explanation - it's taken me over 15 years of visits to Melbourne to figure out the city loop - wonder what'll use the Caulfield part of the loop once the metro tunnel is up and running. One of my first visits I remember not only getting confused because the Clifton Hill group train I was on (around midday) not only didn't go past Flinders St, but unloaded all the passengers on what was platform 14, which at the time I didn't even know existed.
I've lived in Melbourne all my life, used to catch the train to work everyday pre-covid and I have learnt so much from your video. Thank you very, very, very much. Your video is so clear and you are well spoken. Keep up the great work mate!
I used to catch trains in Melbourne all the time until maybe 5 years ago, and somehow I just understood it. The only real confusion was the time of day the trains would change direction. Actually thinking about it, the annoying nuances of not being able to get to certain stations (thinking of Flagstaff here) or having to go certain directions to get to certain stations (going the wrong way around the loop), probably influenced how people move about the CBD
I was so very annoyed about 6 years ago when I tried to get back to the office in Docklands from lunch somewhere near Parliament and found it was impossible to get around the loop on that fashion for the two hours around lunch. What idiot thought that was an acceptable outcome of the loop's operation? I'd instead have to resort to two trams or a tram and a train. I walked instead to spite them all and was still probably quicker.
@@timconnors that’s fair and I remember similar issues at the time, though I think the tram might be faster than walking these days with all the dedicated right of way they have now along some streets which is great. If only that dedicated right of way could be spread to the whole tram network, it would be the cheapest and easiest way to revolutionise Melbourne’s transport for sure
I remember when the first two underground stations were built and Flagstaff was still closed, the train would slow down to mimic the time taken to actually stop
A good, dispassionate description of the ‘loop’ at its drawbacks. I recall moving from Sydney to Melbourne in 1992 and being completely flummoxed by the weirdness of the loop as you have put so well.
I remember taking a while to figure it out when I first moved to Melbourne but I finally figured it all out especially with help from the PTV app. So, I was ready to die on the hill that the trains were the best ever. Then you reminded me of all the little tricks and traps I had just learned to live with. I never really got confused by the loop but I definitely know about sticking my head out of the train to check if I’m still going where I want to go haha and running drunk from Melb. Central to Flinders. So much so that I had a PB that I would try to beat. Still better than Brisbane.
This video has dredged up a bunch of memories for me, skipping school with a friend to ride on an old hitachi silver (no cameras so we could steal the stickers from the walls and stick our heads out the window), taking a train to sydney (do not recommend), the time my dad fell down the escalators at parliament station, the (apparently widespread) ritualistic sticking the head out the door at flinders to see where this fucking train is going even if I've lived on this line for 30 years. and even to this day, seeing those new trains and thinking 'damn, need to find some time to just trainspot and have a go on one of those'! thanks for highlighting the subtle machinations behind something i feel I really should know by now haha
Excellent video, very well explained! I've lived in Melbourne since 1978 and love our system of trains and trams...buses, bruh...you have told us a story we thought we knew but didn't!
7:30 It's worth noting that you can easily avoid having to travel the wrong way around the loop by a short walk or tram ride to Parliment station from Flinders. It's not necessarily any quicker but its nice to have options. Particularly on a hot day I'd rather walk for ten minutes than sit on a train for the same amount of time if the destination is the same. You're better off boarding at Flinders if you want a seat though, at least that was the case when i used to catch the train.
It's not an easy walk to do in under 10 minutes - certainly possible (might need to jog), but most people wouldn't be able to do it and get on the same train. You can catch a Northern Group train in the opposite direction and head it off (like I did in this video: th-cam.com/video/ubNrj64zG7c/w-d-xo.html ) but even that is marginal and depends on a train departing within a pretty narrow timeframe.
Cool vid, nice work. Oh geez, the number of times I've stuck my head out of the train door at Flinders St to double, triple, and quadruple check make sure the train in going to where I want. Although, it's easier now being able to use apps to find out what train you need to be on.
Haha yep, did that just last week when visiting - paranoid the train would change direction and head back out to Richmond rather than continue on to Southern Cross 😂
An interesting film. I didn't know Melbourne had such an extensive suburban rail network. In England, Liverpool has an underground loop line, though a bit simpler. Trains coming from Birkenhead through the Mersey tunnel arrive at St. James Street, then a single line runs through Moorfields (near the former Liverpool Exchange station), Lime Street, Liverpool Central, then back to St James Street. There is normally unidirectional running. There is also another underground line connecting Moorfields with Liverpool Central. The loop line was opened in 1977.
There is a great solution to Melbournes Loop problem and it can be found in Liverpool, UK of all places. they have a 'Wirral Loop'. All trains stop at James Street station and then proceed around a clockwise loop. As soon as the train gets to the next station, Moorfields (the first one on the loop), the train then changes it's destination to wherever it is going next and does the normal announcement of 'this train is for [destination] calling at [stations]' so anyone onboard already doesn't have to worry as their station will be one of the few upcoming stations and anyone starting their journey at Moorfields never knows where the train came from but knows which suburb it is going out to.
I don't know if this is applicable to Melbourne and it sounds like it would be annoying if you were at James Street and wanted to head in the opposite direction of Moorfield. Honestly Melbourne's city loop is generally ok given the circumstances. If patronage was higher, I could see us running enough services so that trains run both way around the city loop (need bidrectional tracks in this hypothetical obviously) but at the moment the ~10min wait between trains during peak times just doesn't make it worth running a train in the opposite direction at the same time; you just gotta cop the 10 minutes detour around the loop. I've always found it convenient on the Glen Waverley line when I go out with friends that it goes around the city loop (MC being the important destination), but I can imagine the inconvenience of needing to changeover at Richmond to get to Flinders.
@@parkinfurkmaz2877You can't go in the opposite direction round the loop as it's a single-track, unidirectional tunnel. The stops are always James St > Moorfields > Lime St > Central > James St again > various destinations. This does make the described announcement system a bit pointless though, as if you're going to one of those various destinations, you would have already changed train at Hamilton Square, the stop before James Street.
8:43 the city circle service is run in situations where certain lines cannot run through the city loop for whatever reason, it takes the load from those passengers. For example, there are times when Pakenham/Cranbourne trains only go as close to the city as Caulfield. Passengers have to change for a Frankston Line train which doesn't go via the loop and so when they reach Flinders Street they may want to go to the loop stations. The city circle service runs in this circumstance to take that load.
Thanks for this interesting video Martin. I do admire the finish of Melbourne's underground stations. The walls opposite the platforms are much more attractive than our Sydney underground platforms which rely on advertising posters to relieve the drab dark walls.
@@Soundmaster91 Absolutely, The heritage stations are very attractive though excepting Museum and Saint James the original colour of the tiling has been changed. I thing upstairs Wynyard is pretty drab being built during The Depression.
8:21 - That's quite an interesting picture, because SW6 tram No. 852 was exported to Auckland, New Zealand in around 2015 or 2016. She's now preserved at the Wynyard Quarter tram line, with another SW6 (No. 881) and the little X1 class No. 466 for company.
This is... really interesting. I expected Melbourne's loop to be a lot like my city, Chicago's loop, but it really isn't. It's so familiar, yet when you look into it, it's so much more than Chicago's loop. Don't get me wrong, Chicago's got some quirks with its loop, but not as much. 10/10 video + new subscriber
New subscriber. Found you through RM Transit’s video you did a guest spot on. Am super impressed by Melbourne’s regional rail network. Unlike GO Transit in Toronto, it is electrified and seems to be something that is regularly used by people who actually live in Melbourne, as opposed to just something that those living “outside the city” use to get into it.
Moving interstate from Victoria soon. Hated using public transport for commuting but always good to get on just to enjoy for a day trip. The City loop and Regional V/Line services are something in definitely going to miss a lot.
When I first moved to Melbourne a few years ago I was lucky enough to end up on the Clifton Hill group - even though you might need to go a few extra stops on the way home before you're out and on your way, overall the consistency and always knowing exactly what order it goes through the stations was great. Lulled me into a bit of false confidence though - I've now moved to the Northern group and am always confused!
Great video! I went through Melbourne Central last week for the first time in a while and thought the station really needs a refit! It’s looking quite dirty now. They’d only have to replace the tiles and paneling.
idk how i got here but i did click straight away when i saw the title. I got lost about half way thru this but its nice to see people doing in depth analysis on our infrastructure and history :D
Also sometimes they do run city circle trains through the Clifton Hill Loop using the old city circle portal like they did in the 1980s if all three other tunnels in the loop are closed for maintenance purposes which has occurred a few times previously within the last few years! :)
Another interesting Video I had not traveled on the suburban network for 20 years. Last year i decided to give it a go as a wheelchair user. The staff at the gate and the drivers (who get the ramp out) were all a great help. But I must say, Melbourne Central Station was very much in need of a clean. And I needed to use three separate elevators to get from the platform to the shops above. It was not simple
Thanks for your efforts. I've always had an interest in these things but have never known where to go for an explanation. Great presentation which is strong on detail and explains why things are as they are, despite seeming illogical to the great unwashed.
This is fascinating and awesome! I actually remember those city circle trains! Totally forgotten about them til now but funny to be like "damn I'm old". The sticking your head out the door to see if it's city loop or not? omg truth. That cracked me up. Guess it's good growing up with such a strangeass system because it's just normal. Fresh pair of eyes would be like wtf is this? I wish they'd put more maps on the trains though. Used to be at every door and now they're not. Which is annoying.
Great video, explained everything clearly and understandably. The closest thing I could imagine could probably be Line 5 on the Oslo T-Bane, it loops around the city twice as indicated on the map.
Years ago when I was young and dumb, me and a few my mates actually walked the entire length of the city loop late at night.... What an experience! So many hidden tunnels connecting the loop to the surface..... you would be surprised how many secret entrances there are
There is also another reason for the loop, and that is the viaduct was an extreme bottleneck. But, also the Clifton Hill group is actually very interesting, see this group didn't actually stop at Flinders St historically. It terminated at Princes Bridge station, which was underneath those two ugly towers or todays Fed square. The rail infrastructure was vastly different back then. To be honest, line usage was super low and there were often Flinders St direct services present on a lot of lines, where both the loop and a direct path to Flinders St were possible. You know, to the south east, Flinders St has the capacity to do both loop and direct at the same time. And they used to do it by sending the two trains at the same time. One would continue through the loop, the other would turn around, and there would be a 15 minute difference right there.
The Liverpool loop ➰ in England does this.If you get on at say West Kirby it says Liverpool Central but once it gets to the first city centre station James Street the trains internal destination changes to usually the place you have come from and this happens two stops before you get to Central.
it could do with a weekend shutdown where a rail trolley goes in there and Kartchers off all the dirt and grime and shit between the platform over the track and up the wall to the overhead. Down at the platform, the joint hasn't been cleaned since it was built. The escalator tunnels could do with a new paint too, starting to look very tired.
Having used the loop a lot I thought it was just better way of turning the trains around. Note it is quicker to change trains in loop as frequently you just cross to the other platform rather than crossing 10 platforms at Flinders st.
This was a fantastic video and well researched. I was once told Flagstaff closed on weekends due to the government buildings above requiring it but that was clearly just a myth.
1 thing you missed start of 2021 they also made the Frankston service travel to Werribee/Williamstown via Southern Cross and Flinders Street which has now taken the pressure Northern loop and Caulfield loop on weekdays and weekends
Great video. Thanks for sharing. Now I understand why the city loop trains changed directions. I can't wait til that practice is totally removed and all lines have permanent running directions. Maybe that will happen once the metro tunnel is operational. I can't count the number of times I've been in the CBD and have rushed to Flinders St thinking that was the best option, only to find that my train is actually going via the loop. I also can't count the number of times I've rushed to Parliament or Melb Central thinking that was the best option, and again being mistaken.
Thank you so much for explaining what for a Melbournian like me, is not only an interesting history, but sometimes a confusing one. The Sydney segment was also educational ans has many merits and some downsides. thanks again.
Did Melbourne have 1 double-decker train, like Sydney's , but just for a brief period of time in 2001 or so? But it didn't fit under bridges, so only ran on Belgrave/Lilydale line?
It was called the 4D, ran from the mid 90s to about 2002. It looked very similar to a Sydney Tangara but was actually quite different. It was only ever approved to run in service to Belgrave and Lilydale, but it wouldn't have actually taken that much work to modify other lines - despite what you might think, it was only fractionally taller than our single deck trains.
Even after that *really* well done video... I'm still *so* damn confused. How TF did they manage to make something so simple so damn complicated? Also, shout out to Sydney city circle, which is an absolute lifesaver.
Great video. I was in Melbourne in 2017 and got caught out coming from Coburg. I was trying to get to Southern Cross to get a bus to the airport and panicked when it got to Flinders Street (it said at Coburg it would go to SC). I got off and found a display board that said it was. I got on a different carriage slightly embarrassed.
The second entrance is for the Frankston line, not currently used. It is physically accessible from the Sandringham line, but Sandringham hasn't run into the loop for many years.
I love the idiosyncracies of the Loop but the directional change on afternoon weekdays and weekends can be frustrating when you want to go just one stop. Caulfield Group staying counter clockwise and the Cross-City Group existing has helped this, but having an extra 10 minutes added to my trip to go from North Melb to Southern Cross because it's Saturday is such a weird thing.
I've noticed whenever there's alot of train lines not running or alot of trains only departing from Southern Cross, that is when they'll have the city circle train, as a quick way to get people to the city loop or southern cross stations
Interesting how in both Syney and Mebourne trains can run around the loop and then form services to a completely different place to where they came from. In Chicago, where we have a similar loop (though ours is elevated), every single train that circles it returns to exactly where it came from, and it has been operating like this since basically forever.
Interesting video. The loop can be confusing. I'm always that person popping my head out checking where the train is going. Since most of the time the screens within the carriage are incorrect and don't actually show where you're arriving. I've seen tourists miss their stop on a suburban train at night because they couldn't see out the window, and the screen within the carriage was just completely wrong, saying it's arriving at a station we passed through two stops ago. What I find more confusing/bothersome is the lack of a proper 'web' design like most big cities. IE you have to go to Richmond first to go from somewhere like Mordiallic to Sandringham unless you want to get an extremely slow bus, which is incredibly inefficient. Compared to other developed countries (particularly in Asia), I don't find this train system particularly impressive, when you consider how much we pay in tax.
@Soph As a teenager living in Mordialloc with friends in places like Sandringham and Hampton, the fact that getting a train to their place was entirely impractical drove me mad. Always had to catch the bus to Southland and change to another bus there.
City Circle trains often run when any of the other services aren't running in the City Loop during nightly closures, when there is spare capacity in that tunnel. I've yet to ride one myself but will be on the lookout for one
true, it gets confusing at times, especially when there was work at city loop area, which happen in recent weekend where, if people want to get off at southern cross, from flinders street, they have to change trains, thou i still enjoy the city loop as it brings people in and out of city easily.
This blew my mind. I never really thought about how every time we go to the city or come home, we go through all the undergrounds before home. I go before 12 in the afternoon
I like the loop system, I think it was due to the fact I have been mainly using clifton hill loop, which never changes direction and always in platform 1 in flinders station :D
Rode a train that did the city circle one evening. 1 or 2 tunnels were shut for works. My train started at Flinders, did a loop back go Flinders, then proceeded towards the caulfield group.
8:30 i believe it was discontinued due to Princes Bridge closing and there being no spare space on platform 1 for them, you're right there are no public timetabled services however they do run on weekends every 20 minutes when any loop apart from the clifton hill group is closed for maintenance, now theres a good secret for ya
I hadn't heard that reason before, but I guess it probably was a factor. Another time it gets used is when there's a Jolimont-Clifton Hill occupation and they sometimes run the CC to connect with busses at Parliament.
The point about trains “changing” at Flinders St is especially frustrating for me trying to get an Upfield train home from Southern Cross in the evening. Countless times a train leaving SC with an Upfield headboard has magically transformed into a Craigieburn or Watergardens service on arrival at Flinders. The only safe way home is to catch a clockwise loop service to Flagstaff and intercept an Upfield there.
which is ALSO faster given that the Upfield line runs every 20mins, I used to just ignore it and get a Mernda train to Flagstaff/MelbourneCentral and then walk across the platform and get the earlier Upfield train sure I potentially have to stand if I'm unlucky, but I also get home 20mins earlier
One time I was on a weekend train in 2010 or so that ... accidentally stopped at the closed Flagstaff. And one passenger got out. Never heard about what happened to that passenger. Did they spend all weekend in a closed underground station?
The Burnley Loop is probably the busiest loop, and I know that because I live on the Belgrave line. It caters for Belgrave, Lilydale, Alamein and Glen Waverley lines. At Richmond station, only one platform serves all these related lines, Plat 9. Maybe 10 of you're there in time.
It also happens to be the best. Why is that? People shit on our 3rd track from Burnley to Bok Hill......... but I tell you this 3rd track is an absolute game changer..💪. Don't care who says otherwise, cos you don't have one. The other line I was well familiar with, was the Frankston line. It failed to exploit its 3rd track to Moorabbin to best effect, stuffed up entirely by not getting the 3rd track to Cheltenham (maybe it does now??), and then totally butchered possibilities, by not pushing for the track all the way to Mordialloc- missed opportunity. Well, I can tell you - Burnley group...........................The next train to depart from platform 4 is the x.xx yyyyyyyyyy, stopping all stations to Richmond, running express from Richmond to Camberwell, Camberwell to Box hill, Bok hill to Mitcham, Mitcham to Ringwood, then................. stopping all stations to Belgrave/Lilydale.🖕 The question isn't what have you got/not...................., but why???
haha I remember as 14yo in the early 90s friend and I went to the city for the car show on a weekend and then wanted to go to Melb Central. counted the number of stops we needed and took the train. Train was not supposed to stop at Flagstaff on the weekend but it did and we got off. we were inside a locked train station with no staff lol. Some how we found a pay phone inside and called 000. 15-20 min later a train finally stopped and driver got out and we went through the drivers door into the passenger compartment... The days before mobile phones!
@@Taitset Yep! We felt cool going through the drivers door. Driver kept the passenger doors still locked so no more people got off. Got weird looks from the existing passengers...
I've had to peer out the door or window when arriving at Flinders Street to see if the train's continuing on to Southern Cross so that I can continue on home with a V/Line service to Geelong. It's really irritating especially if I have to get off at Flinders Street and then try and work out which platform to go to that has services running through to Southern Cross!
Ah the good old days when all 4 lines changed directions, some lines didn't go through the loop on weekdays & it closed at 7:30 with Flagstaff closed weekends and Parliament on sundays
Yes this is so confusing. I was on incoming train from Mernda and the PTV app said it would continue to Southern Cross but it decided to quit at Flinders St
The "getting off then get back on" issue occurred to me today as due to a trespasser between Richmond, Flinders and Spencer street, us and a pakenham/cranbourne hcmt had to forcibly stop at toorak for ~40-50 min and all the depatures were changed. i was meant to get off at spotswood but as the sandy line was bus only, and most depatures became delayed, we ended up at plat. 13, a dead end. the train had become a frankston train, instead of williamstown. a lady nearby asked "is this continuing to southern cross?" and i hadn't realised it was 13, so i said yes, then got off, checked and said no. btw, epic video (i managed to get to spotswood, 1.30hrs late.)
City loop, while much needed at the time and still viable, is definitely overengineered and made unnecessarily complex. As a person who design railway signalling and train control systems, I think it's absolute operational nightmare. It is still needed today, just have to be simplified a little. Metro tunnel and possible second tunnel would immensely help untangle the mess.
@@michaelellis8726 i will not accept your ridiculous insult. "lack of understanding" of what? It literally says in the video that city loop is very confusing. You being a dickhead here doesn't make it more simple.
There are two things about the City Loop I prefer to the City Circle. 1. The stations are spread further apart. There is actually a decent amount of distance between, for instance, Flinders Street and Melbourne Central, or Southern Cross and Parliament, meaning all stations are useful and well patronised. By comparison, St James and Museum stations are extremely close to Sydney Central and Town Hall stations, which both get far more services, making them both a bit useless. 2. Trains run faster through the City Loop. Catching a train through the City Circle running at 25km/h and wishing you'd instead caught the light rail or even walked is a Sydney tradition we could do without. Another thing I prefer about PT in general in Melbourne's CBD is that train and tram routes run in all directions while PT in Sydney CBD is extremely north-south centric. If you're going from the east end of Sydney's CBD to Darling Harbour, your only direct option is to walk. Fortunately the Sydney City Metro and Melbourne Metro Tunnel will make travelling through both city centres much easier and faster.
A really interesting account. It seems transit planners had good foresight to build the Loop back in the 1980's to better distribute passengers around the CBD, albeit with a few quirks of operation!
When entering the Caulfield Loop from the Frankston end, and while in the square section of tunnel, it is possible to see down into a tunnel below. Is this an access way???
Usually the sunbury line terminating at flinders immediately goes to southern cross to become the cragieburn line back out to north Melbourne afterwards. But honestly I just use the app to figure out which platform to run to for whatever station I need after getting into flinders or southern cross
Great work. I’ve lived in Melbourne for 10 years and still find the loop confusing. But the stations have retained their 80s charm and the wide passageways showed some foresight by the designers.
How is the loop confusing? When I lived in Footscray before moving to Brisbane I always knew which direction the train was going. I've never been confused using the city loop.
Did you watch the video? It's literally about why the loop is confusing.
@@Taitset it is confusing for people who aren't used to it. I grew up in Melbourne, so I just took the operations for granted. Thanks for pointing out all the oddities that I'd never noticed.
who doesn't find all lines confusing
80's charm? That's the first time I've ever seen that phrase used.
“This train will no longer be running via the city loop and will go direct to Flinders street. I repeat. . . “ *collective commuter groan”
lol
As a melbournian, im used to the chaos and even love it! But it is very confusing if youre not prepared and ive helped many people get to where they were going when they looked a bit lost in the CBD. Fantastic video!!
I remember the before times, when peering through the hoardings around the Loop works was a part of every trip into the city.
When the Loop opened, it was as though a mystic portal had materialised, allowing easier access to places that teenaged me would have otherwise had to walk to.
Now, the new works are rekindling the anticipation of discovery
Lived in Melbourne for the last 27 years and the city loop has always perplexed me with how strange it ran thank you for the fantastic explanation for how this all runs
Ahh the memories. My cousins were a railway family, Uncle Ken being an architect-designer for VR. Subsequently when I used to head to Melbourne for school holidays at my cousins in Eltham, we used to travel the network into the city regularly by ourselves, so long as we were back before streetlights came on.
I remember playing in 'The Loop' when it was being built. My cousins were very familiar with it and the network as a whole.
We ran freely, most of the staff knew my cousins and so long as we used common sense we had the run on the whole place.
Jeez the memories...the adventure...it was really something for a country kid l Iike me.
I live in Sydney but as I write this I'm in Melbourne on a short holiday. Been here plenty of times before and I am still utterly confused about the city loop and this video while interesting still leaves me scratching my head lol
Whats to get?
Infrastructure Victoria has recently recommended reconfiguring the City Loop to create bi-directional thru-routes between Craigieburn to Frankston, and Upfield to Glen Waverley. All that is required is two new little tunnel segments between North Melbourne and Flagstaff, and Richmond and Parliament. This will solve soooo many of the Loop's problems! Maybe you can cover this proposal in a Part 2 video?
Yes I have been considering doing that!
Especially with future proposed through running
@@smedleyfarnsworth263 all changes are below ground.
@@smedleyfarnsworth263 see about page 140 of www.ptv.vic.gov.au/footer/legal-and-policies/growing-our-rail-network-2018-2025/
Good explanation - it's taken me over 15 years of visits to Melbourne to figure out the city loop - wonder what'll use the Caulfield part of the loop once the metro tunnel is up and running.
One of my first visits I remember not only getting confused because the Clifton Hill group train I was on (around midday) not only didn't go past Flinders St, but unloaded all the passengers on what was platform 14, which at the time I didn't even know existed.
I believe the plan is to put Frankston back in the loop once the Metro tunnel opens.
I've lived in Melbourne all my life, used to catch the train to work everyday pre-covid and I have learnt so much from your video. Thank you very, very, very much. Your video is so clear and you are well spoken. Keep up the great work mate!
I used to catch trains in Melbourne all the time until maybe 5 years ago, and somehow I just understood it. The only real confusion was the time of day the trains would change direction.
Actually thinking about it, the annoying nuances of not being able to get to certain stations (thinking of Flagstaff here) or having to go certain directions to get to certain stations (going the wrong way around the loop), probably influenced how people move about the CBD
I was so very annoyed about 6 years ago when I tried to get back to the office in Docklands from lunch somewhere near Parliament and found it was impossible to get around the loop on that fashion for the two hours around lunch.
What idiot thought that was an acceptable outcome of the loop's operation? I'd instead have to resort to two trams or a tram and a train. I walked instead to spite them all and was still probably quicker.
@@timconnors that’s fair and I remember similar issues at the time, though I think the tram might be faster than walking these days with all the dedicated right of way they have now along some streets which is great. If only that dedicated right of way could be spread to the whole tram network, it would be the cheapest and easiest way to revolutionise Melbourne’s transport for sure
I remember when the first two underground stations were built and Flagstaff was still closed, the train would slow down to mimic the time taken to actually stop
A good, dispassionate description of the ‘loop’ at its drawbacks. I recall moving from Sydney to Melbourne in 1992 and being completely flummoxed by the weirdness of the loop as you have put so well.
I remember taking a while to figure it out when I first moved to Melbourne but I finally figured it all out especially with help from the PTV app. So, I was ready to die on the hill that the trains were the best ever. Then you reminded me of all the little tricks and traps I had just learned to live with. I never really got confused by the loop but I definitely know about sticking my head out of the train to check if I’m still going where I want to go haha and running drunk from Melb. Central to Flinders. So much so that I had a PB that I would try to beat. Still better than Brisbane.
Thanks, very informative. I'm glad I'm not the only one to get out at Flinders Street to read the display to see where the train goes next!
This video has dredged up a bunch of memories for me, skipping school with a friend to ride on an old hitachi silver (no cameras so we could steal the stickers from the walls and stick our heads out the window), taking a train to sydney (do not recommend), the time my dad fell down the escalators at parliament station, the (apparently widespread) ritualistic sticking the head out the door at flinders to see where this fucking train is going even if I've lived on this line for 30 years. and even to this day, seeing those new trains and thinking 'damn, need to find some time to just trainspot and have a go on one of those'! thanks for highlighting the subtle machinations behind something i feel I really should know by now haha
Those escalators at Parliament are traumatising! Never get off there if I can help it!
Excellent video, very well explained! I've lived in Melbourne since 1978 and love our system of trains and trams...buses, bruh...you have told us a story we thought we knew but didn't!
7:30 It's worth noting that you can easily avoid having to travel the wrong way around the loop by a short walk or tram ride to Parliment station from Flinders.
It's not necessarily any quicker but its nice to have options. Particularly on a hot day I'd rather walk for ten minutes than sit on a train for the same amount of time if the destination is the same.
You're better off boarding at Flinders if you want a seat though, at least that was the case when i used to catch the train.
It's not an easy walk to do in under 10 minutes - certainly possible (might need to jog), but most people wouldn't be able to do it and get on the same train. You can catch a Northern Group train in the opposite direction and head it off (like I did in this video: th-cam.com/video/ubNrj64zG7c/w-d-xo.html ) but even that is marginal and depends on a train departing within a pretty narrow timeframe.
Cool vid, nice work.
Oh geez, the number of times I've stuck my head out of the train door at Flinders St to double, triple, and quadruple check make sure the train in going to where I want. Although, it's easier now being able to use apps to find out what train you need to be on.
Haha yep, did that just last week when visiting - paranoid the train would change direction and head back out to Richmond rather than continue on to Southern Cross 😂
An interesting film. I didn't know Melbourne had such an extensive suburban rail network.
In England, Liverpool has an underground loop line, though a bit simpler. Trains coming from Birkenhead through the Mersey tunnel arrive at St. James Street, then a single line runs through Moorfields (near the former Liverpool Exchange station), Lime Street, Liverpool Central, then back to St James Street. There is normally unidirectional running. There is also another underground line connecting Moorfields with Liverpool Central. The loop line was opened in 1977.
much better than the circle line in london which isn’t even a circle anymore
There is a great solution to Melbournes Loop problem and it can be found in Liverpool, UK of all places. they have a 'Wirral Loop'. All trains stop at James Street station and then proceed around a clockwise loop. As soon as the train gets to the next station, Moorfields (the first one on the loop), the train then changes it's destination to wherever it is going next and does the normal announcement of 'this train is for [destination] calling at [stations]' so anyone onboard already doesn't have to worry as their station will be one of the few upcoming stations and anyone starting their journey at Moorfields never knows where the train came from but knows which suburb it is going out to.
A similar operation style is used in Sydney's City Circle
I don't know if this is applicable to Melbourne and it sounds like it would be annoying if you were at James Street and wanted to head in the opposite direction of Moorfield. Honestly Melbourne's city loop is generally ok given the circumstances. If patronage was higher, I could see us running enough services so that trains run both way around the city loop (need bidrectional tracks in this hypothetical obviously) but at the moment the ~10min wait between trains during peak times just doesn't make it worth running a train in the opposite direction at the same time; you just gotta cop the 10 minutes detour around the loop. I've always found it convenient on the Glen Waverley line when I go out with friends that it goes around the city loop (MC being the important destination), but I can imagine the inconvenience of needing to changeover at Richmond to get to Flinders.
they often do this in peak hour in melbourne. I really dont know why they dont do it all the time.
@@parkinfurkmaz2877You can't go in the opposite direction round the loop as it's a single-track, unidirectional tunnel. The stops are always James St > Moorfields > Lime St > Central > James St again > various destinations. This does make the described announcement system a bit pointless though, as if you're going to one of those various destinations, you would have already changed train at Hamilton Square, the stop before James Street.
8:43 the city circle service is run in situations where certain lines cannot run through the city loop for whatever reason, it takes the load from those passengers.
For example, there are times when Pakenham/Cranbourne trains only go as close to the city as Caulfield. Passengers have to change for a Frankston Line train which doesn't go via the loop and so when they reach Flinders Street they may want to go to the loop stations. The city circle service runs in this circumstance to take that load.
Thanks for this interesting video Martin. I do admire the finish of Melbourne's underground stations. The walls opposite the platforms are much more attractive than our Sydney underground platforms which rely on advertising posters to relieve the drab dark walls.
Yeah TownHall in Sydney you mean, the rest of the city circle underground is beautiful heritage design
@@Soundmaster91 Absolutely, The heritage stations are very attractive though excepting Museum and Saint James the original colour of the tiling has been changed. I thing upstairs Wynyard is pretty drab being built during The Depression.
Great work Martin! Loved your detailed presentation & graphics, made for an engaging watch.
Cheers, glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you so much, I was so confused about how the loop was set out, and this video has helped me so much!
8:21 - That's quite an interesting picture, because SW6 tram No. 852 was exported to Auckland, New Zealand in around 2015 or 2016. She's now preserved at the Wynyard Quarter tram line, with another SW6 (No. 881) and the little X1 class No. 466 for company.
This is... really interesting. I expected Melbourne's loop to be a lot like my city, Chicago's loop, but it really isn't. It's so familiar, yet when you look into it, it's so much more than Chicago's loop. Don't get me wrong, Chicago's got some quirks with its loop, but not as much. 10/10 video + new subscriber
I'm going to Melbourne soon and I have watched this video and it all makes sense! Thank you! 😊
New subscriber. Found you through RM Transit’s video you did a guest spot on. Am super impressed by Melbourne’s regional rail network. Unlike GO Transit in Toronto, it is electrified and seems to be something that is regularly used by people who actually live in Melbourne, as opposed to just something that those living “outside the city” use to get into it.
Moving interstate from Victoria soon. Hated using public transport for commuting but always good to get on just to enjoy for a day trip. The City loop and Regional V/Line services are something in definitely going to miss a lot.
When I first moved to Melbourne a few years ago I was lucky enough to end up on the Clifton Hill group - even though you might need to go a few extra stops on the way home before you're out and on your way, overall the consistency and always knowing exactly what order it goes through the stations was great. Lulled me into a bit of false confidence though - I've now moved to the Northern group and am always confused!
Great video! I went through Melbourne Central last week for the first time in a while and thought the station really needs a refit! It’s looking quite dirty now. They’d only have to replace the tiles and paneling.
One of my favourites! Thanks Taitset.
idk how i got here but i did click straight away when i saw the title. I got lost about half way thru this but its nice to see people doing in depth analysis on our infrastructure and history :D
Also sometimes they do run city circle trains through the Clifton Hill Loop using the old city circle portal like they did in the 1980s if all three other tunnels in the loop are closed for maintenance purposes which has occurred a few times previously within the last few years! :)
Another interesting Video
I had not traveled on the suburban network for 20 years. Last year i decided to give it a go as a wheelchair user. The staff at the gate and the drivers (who get the ramp out) were all a great help.
But I must say, Melbourne Central Station was very much in need of a clean. And I needed to use three separate elevators to get from the platform to the shops above. It was not simple
Excellent video! Wished they had done a video like this years ago that would help me understand how the system works better!
Thanks for your efforts. I've always had an interest in these things but have never known where to go for an explanation. Great presentation which is strong on detail and explains why things are as they are, despite seeming illogical to the great unwashed.
This is fascinating and awesome! I actually remember those city circle trains! Totally forgotten about them til now but funny to be like "damn I'm old". The sticking your head out the door to see if it's city loop or not? omg truth. That cracked me up. Guess it's good growing up with such a strangeass system because it's just normal. Fresh pair of eyes would be like wtf is this? I wish they'd put more maps on the trains though. Used to be at every door and now they're not. Which is annoying.
Great video, explained everything clearly and understandably. The closest thing I could imagine could probably be Line 5 on the Oslo T-Bane, it loops around the city twice as indicated on the map.
Really realy interresting. Now I understand the system. It is so impressive how creative solutions for transit can be.
Great video.
Years ago when I was young and dumb, me and a few my mates actually walked the entire length of the city loop late at night....
What an experience! So many hidden tunnels connecting the loop to the surface..... you would be surprised how many secret entrances there are
they'd be emergency exits
which loop did ya walk?
@@mr.jamster8414 all of them mate
@@prismaticmarcus That is what i initially thought; but many arent easily accessible to be an emergency exit as such
@@imTriiBz bloody hell!
9:50 As someone who last live Melbourne 10-ish years ago I didn't realise how much I miss doing this until now!
There is also another reason for the loop, and that is the viaduct was an extreme bottleneck. But, also the Clifton Hill group is actually very interesting, see this group didn't actually stop at Flinders St historically. It terminated at Princes Bridge station, which was underneath those two ugly towers or todays Fed square. The rail infrastructure was vastly different back then. To be honest, line usage was super low and there were often Flinders St direct services present on a lot of lines, where both the loop and a direct path to Flinders St were possible. You know, to the south east, Flinders St has the capacity to do both loop and direct at the same time. And they used to do it by sending the two trains at the same time. One would continue through the loop, the other would turn around, and there would be a 15 minute difference right there.
The Liverpool loop ➰ in England does this.If you get on at say West Kirby it says Liverpool Central but once it gets to the first city centre station James Street the trains internal destination changes to usually the place you have come from and this happens two stops before you get to Central.
it could do with a weekend shutdown where a rail trolley goes in there and Kartchers off all the dirt and grime and shit between the platform over the track and up the wall to the overhead.
Down at the platform, the joint hasn't been cleaned since it was built. The escalator tunnels could do with a new paint too, starting to look very tired.
Having used the loop a lot I thought it was just better way of turning the trains around. Note it is quicker to change trains in loop as frequently you just cross to the other platform rather than crossing 10 platforms at Flinders st.
This was a fantastic video and well researched.
I was once told Flagstaff closed on weekends due to the government buildings above requiring it but that was clearly just a myth.
As a melburnian who loves train details this was a fun video
1 thing you missed start of 2021 they also made the Frankston service travel to Werribee/Williamstown via Southern Cross and Flinders Street which has now taken the pressure Northern loop and Caulfield loop on weekdays and weekends
Very interesting and informative. Great work! 👍
Great video. Thanks for sharing. Now I understand why the city loop trains changed directions. I can't wait til that practice is totally removed and all lines have permanent running directions. Maybe that will happen once the metro tunnel is operational. I can't count the number of times I've been in the CBD and have rushed to Flinders St thinking that was the best option, only to find that my train is actually going via the loop. I also can't count the number of times I've rushed to Parliament or Melb Central thinking that was the best option, and again being mistaken.
Why would you even care? If 10 minutes is time critical, you wouldn't be taking a train in the first place
@@michaelellis8726 In peak hour you can get from one side of Melbourne to the other much, much faster on a train than in a taxi.
How have I lived in Melbourne for 5 years and I am only just now realising that the City Loop is only those top 3 stations
I've been living in Melbourne for 18 years now, and I've only realised that in recent years.
Thank you so much for explaining what for a Melbournian like me, is not only an interesting history, but sometimes a confusing one. The Sydney segment was also educational ans has many merits and some downsides. thanks again.
amazing channel. so interesting to learn about a system i use daily but never thought much of
Did Melbourne have 1 double-decker train, like Sydney's , but just for a brief period of time in 2001 or so? But it didn't fit under bridges, so only ran on Belgrave/Lilydale line?
It was called the 4D, ran from the mid 90s to about 2002. It looked very similar to a Sydney Tangara but was actually quite different. It was only ever approved to run in service to Belgrave and Lilydale, but it wouldn't have actually taken that much work to modify other lines - despite what you might think, it was only fractionally taller than our single deck trains.
Great presentation you made, Martin
Even after that *really* well done video... I'm still *so* damn confused. How TF did they manage to make something so simple so damn complicated? Also, shout out to Sydney city circle, which is an absolute lifesaver.
Great video. I was in Melbourne in 2017 and got caught out coming from Coburg. I was trying to get to Southern Cross to get a bus to the airport and panicked when it got to Flinders Street (it said at Coburg it would go to SC). I got off and found a display board that said it was. I got on a different carriage slightly embarrassed.
Don't feel bad, I've lived here my entire life and have done that more than once.
Very interesting, informative, and we'll put together video, a few things about the loop I never knew, well done!
In New Zealand, Auckland is getting its city loop under the city between Britomart and Mount Eden very soon.
Great video 👍, also isn’t there another Tunnel entrance next to the Caulfield loop entrance at Richmond that Sandringham trains use to use sometimes?
The second entrance is for the Frankston line, not currently used. It is physically accessible from the Sandringham line, but Sandringham hasn't run into the loop for many years.
Bravo!! Excellent stuff Martin!
I love the idiosyncracies of the Loop but the directional change on afternoon weekdays and weekends can be frustrating when you want to go just one stop. Caulfield Group staying counter clockwise and the Cross-City Group existing has helped this, but having an extra 10 minutes added to my trip to go from North Melb to Southern Cross because it's Saturday is such a weird thing.
I've noticed whenever there's alot of train lines not running or alot of trains only departing from Southern Cross, that is when they'll have the city circle train, as a quick way to get people to the city loop or southern cross stations
Interesting how in both Syney and Mebourne trains can run around the loop and then form services to a completely different place to where they came from. In Chicago, where we have a similar loop (though ours is elevated), every single train that circles it returns to exactly where it came from, and it has been operating like this since basically forever.
Interesting video. The loop can be confusing. I'm always that person popping my head out checking where the train is going. Since most of the time the screens within the carriage are incorrect and don't actually show where you're arriving. I've seen tourists miss their stop on a suburban train at night because they couldn't see out the window, and the screen within the carriage was just completely wrong, saying it's arriving at a station we passed through two stops ago.
What I find more confusing/bothersome is the lack of a proper 'web' design like most big cities. IE you have to go to Richmond first to go from somewhere like Mordiallic to Sandringham unless you want to get an extremely slow bus, which is incredibly inefficient. Compared to other developed countries (particularly in Asia), I don't find this train system particularly impressive, when you consider how much we pay in tax.
We don't pay excessive taxes. Compared to the OECD, our total tax take is average
@@michaelellis8726 We pay enough to make some improvements IMO
@Soph As a teenager living in Mordialloc with friends in places like Sandringham and Hampton, the fact that getting a train to their place was entirely impractical drove me mad. Always had to catch the bus to Southland and change to another bus there.
Nice video, would love to see a video about possible service changes through the loop once the metro tunnel opens/
Love your work, most informative, thanks Phillip.
taitset brother i love melbourne central station
Me too! :)
City Circle trains often run when any of the other services aren't running in the City Loop during nightly closures, when there is spare capacity in that tunnel. I've yet to ride one myself but will be on the lookout for one
Thanks for posting this , i found it resonated with me completely.
this was fascinating -- and important in preparing for a visit -- thx.
Great video would u do one on the free tram zone ?
true, it gets confusing at times, especially when there was work at city loop area, which happen in recent weekend where, if people want to get off at southern cross, from flinders street, they have to change trains, thou i still enjoy the city loop as it brings people in and out of city easily.
This blew my mind. I never really thought about how every time we go to the city or come home, we go through all the undergrounds before home. I go before 12 in the afternoon
I like the loop system, I think it was due to the fact I have been mainly using clifton hill loop, which never changes direction and always in platform 1 in flinders station :D
Thanks for adding actual captions for the Deaf
No problem!
10:23 fun fact. These displays have been updated now showing the map better, with correct colours, directions and includes Jolimont
Rode a train that did the city circle one evening. 1 or 2 tunnels were shut for works. My train started at Flinders, did a loop back go Flinders, then proceeded towards the caulfield group.
As a Trainee driver.. This is informative. 😊😊
I've lived in Melbourne my whole 14 years of existence yet i only came to know about jolimont station a year ago when some friends and i got lost.
8:30 i believe it was discontinued due to Princes Bridge closing and there being no spare space on platform 1 for them, you're right there are no public timetabled services however they do run on weekends every 20 minutes when any loop apart from the clifton hill group is closed for maintenance, now theres a good secret for ya
I hadn't heard that reason before, but I guess it probably was a factor. Another time it gets used is when there's a Jolimont-Clifton Hill occupation and they sometimes run the CC to connect with busses at Parliament.
that metlink logo brings me back to when single-use tickets were being phased out
The point about trains “changing” at Flinders St is especially frustrating for me trying to get an Upfield train home from Southern Cross in the evening. Countless times a train leaving SC with an Upfield headboard has magically transformed into a Craigieburn or Watergardens service on arrival at Flinders. The only safe way home is to catch a clockwise loop service to Flagstaff and intercept an Upfield there.
which is ALSO faster given that the Upfield line runs every 20mins,
I used to just ignore it and get a Mernda train to Flagstaff/MelbourneCentral and then walk across the platform and get the earlier Upfield train
sure I potentially have to stand if I'm unlucky, but I also get home 20mins earlier
One time I was on a weekend train in 2010 or so that ... accidentally stopped at the closed Flagstaff. And one passenger got out. Never heard about what happened to that passenger. Did they spend all weekend in a closed underground station?
I've heard that happened occasionally! I think the usual process was to arrange for another train to stop and pick them up again.
The Burnley Loop is probably the busiest loop, and I know that because I live on the Belgrave line. It caters for Belgrave, Lilydale, Alamein and Glen Waverley lines. At Richmond station, only one platform serves all these related lines, Plat 9. Maybe 10 of you're there in time.
It also happens to be the best. Why is that? People shit on our 3rd track from Burnley to Bok Hill......... but I tell you this 3rd track is an absolute game changer..💪. Don't care who says otherwise, cos you don't have one.
The other line I was well familiar with, was the Frankston line. It failed to exploit its 3rd track to Moorabbin to best effect, stuffed up entirely by not getting the 3rd track to Cheltenham (maybe it does now??), and then totally butchered possibilities, by not pushing for the track all the way to Mordialloc- missed opportunity.
Well, I can tell you - Burnley group...........................The next train to depart from platform 4 is the x.xx yyyyyyyyyy, stopping all stations to Richmond, running express from Richmond to Camberwell, Camberwell to Box hill, Bok hill to Mitcham, Mitcham to Ringwood, then................. stopping all stations to Belgrave/Lilydale.🖕
The question isn't what have you got/not...................., but why???
Is there any track that allows trains to leave the loop a different way from where they came from?
haha I remember as 14yo in the early 90s friend and I went to the city for the car show on a weekend and then wanted to go to Melb Central. counted the number of stops we needed and took the train. Train was not supposed to stop at Flagstaff on the weekend but it did and we got off. we were inside a locked train station with no staff lol.
Some how we found a pay phone inside and called 000. 15-20 min later a train finally stopped and driver got out and we went through the drivers door into the passenger compartment... The days before mobile phones!
Haha that's awesome. Cool they just used a train to pick you up rather than sending someone to unlock the exit.
@@Taitset Yep! We felt cool going through the drivers door. Driver kept the passenger doors still locked so no more people got off.
Got weird looks from the existing passengers...
@@Taitset even finding the pay phone was a challenge iirc, ended up in the staff rooms to find one
That's pretty amazing.
The ‘City Circle’ is used by Sunbury trains that terminate at Flinders via the Loop. went by the other day and went through for the first time
Nah that would be the Northern loop. There's no way to get to the City Circle from the Sunbury line.
@@Taitset ok makes more sense.
I've had to peer out the door or window when arriving at Flinders Street to see if the train's continuing on to Southern Cross so that I can continue on home with a V/Line service to Geelong. It's really irritating especially if I have to get off at Flinders Street and then try and work out which platform to go to that has services running through to Southern Cross!
Ah the good old days when all 4 lines changed directions, some lines didn't go through the loop on weekdays & it closed at 7:30 with Flagstaff closed weekends and Parliament on sundays
Yes this is so confusing. I was on incoming train from Mernda and the PTV app said it would continue to Southern Cross but it decided to quit at Flinders St
I never knew our trains were so confusing. glad im on the Merida line. I literally just get on and its no worries about direction or anything lmao
The "getting off then get back on" issue occurred to me today as due to a trespasser between Richmond, Flinders and Spencer street, us and a pakenham/cranbourne hcmt had to forcibly stop at toorak for ~40-50 min and all the depatures were changed. i was meant to get off at spotswood but as the sandy line was bus only, and most depatures became delayed, we ended up at plat. 13, a dead end. the train had become a frankston train, instead of williamstown. a lady nearby asked "is this continuing to southern cross?" and i hadn't realised it was 13, so i said yes, then got off, checked and said no. btw, epic video (i managed to get to spotswood, 1.30hrs late.)
Glad you enjoyed the video, that sounds like a very authentic Melbourne experience you had there!
City loop, while much needed at the time and still viable, is definitely overengineered and made unnecessarily complex. As a person who design railway signalling and train control systems, I think it's absolute operational nightmare. It is still needed today, just have to be simplified a little. Metro tunnel and possible second tunnel would immensely help untangle the mess.
The Melbourne Outer Circle would have eliminated a lot of these issues…
But that was mostly closed in the 1950’s…
There's nothing overengineerdd about it. Your lack of understanding doesn't make it overengineered
@@michaelellis8726 i will not accept your ridiculous insult. "lack of understanding" of what? It literally says in the video that city loop is very confusing. You being a dickhead here doesn't make it more simple.
There are two things about the City Loop I prefer to the City Circle.
1. The stations are spread further apart. There is actually a decent amount of distance between, for instance, Flinders Street and Melbourne Central, or Southern Cross and Parliament, meaning all stations are useful and well patronised. By comparison, St James and Museum stations are extremely close to Sydney Central and Town Hall stations, which both get far more services, making them both a bit useless.
2. Trains run faster through the City Loop. Catching a train through the City Circle running at 25km/h and wishing you'd instead caught the light rail or even walked is a Sydney tradition we could do without.
Another thing I prefer about PT in general in Melbourne's CBD is that train and tram routes run in all directions while PT in Sydney CBD is extremely north-south centric. If you're going from the east end of Sydney's CBD to Darling Harbour, your only direct option is to walk.
Fortunately the Sydney City Metro and Melbourne Metro Tunnel will make travelling through both city centres much easier and faster.
A really interesting account. It seems transit planners had good foresight to build the Loop back in the 1980's to better distribute passengers around the CBD, albeit with a few quirks of operation!
When entering the Caulfield Loop from the Frankston end, and while in the square section of tunnel, it is possible to see down into a tunnel below. Is this an access way???
Some reason my Burnley group train still terminated at Flinders Street at 1PM but then next time it went through at 12:00
Usually the sunbury line terminating at flinders immediately goes to southern cross to become the cragieburn line back out to north Melbourne afterwards. But honestly I just use the app to figure out which platform to run to for whatever station I need after getting into flinders or southern cross