As a graduate engineer, the total lack of homogeneity or consistency in the cured layup was astonishing in a vessel subjected to such enormous stresses. The amateur way wrinkles were ground out is also alarming as when you cut the fibres you are weakening the matrix
Well, all production methods have errors to some degree and sometimes they are more acceptable than others. Ie. if this a missile, that only needs to work once, through the air is quite a bit different from taking 5 passengers with you to the titanic. Repeatedly. Proper testing would probably have shown that you absolutely can build a carbon fiber hulled submarine to go to the titanic, but no more than eg. 5 times safely, with these particular production methods. That would probably have sunk the company (in a better way than what happened) and somebody didn't want to accept that.
@@nt78stonewobble It certainly is an interesting prospect to consider. Had they ACTUALLY put forth the effort and time to create a high quality and near voidless CFRC that they would absolutely 100% be alive right now. But the shear level of flaws and quality of layup is just astonishingly bad. But yeah I mean if they actually had gave a shit, none of this would've happened. And they probably could've made an industry off of limited use cheap carbon hulls.
The entire concept of using carbon fiber ANYTHING in a submersible at that depth is ridiculous. This is WAY stupid, up there with the futuristic 40's idea of airplanes that can fly right into the sea and become submarines. There's NO engineering consideration involving weight reduction that can't be offset in the final weigh-in by additional buoyancy. And at sixty-two pounds per cubic foot, buoyancy is cheap.
@@Telephonebill51 The Navy did it (and did it right). It’s possible when taking into consideration that it’s a limited use scenario, but more importantly when they actually produce the carbon composite pressure hull properly with multiple orders of magnitude of precision. It’s not that carbon composites shouldn’t be used, it’s that they shouldn’t be used indefinitely. If they had accepted the fact that Titan would always need a new hull after a few key dives, this wouldn’t have happened. Stockton did have a sound idea, but he was too cheap and too arrogant to admit the Titan needed far greater precision and rigorous testing.
The worst part is that they sort of did their job. Though they didn't function as described by Rush. They still indicated that some damage to the hull had occurred and Rush ignored them, which only goes to show that he either didn't believe in them, or he just didn't give AF. Either way, the term, "Safety Theatre" is absolutely right.
I heard he was going to use schedule 80 PVC sewer pipe with glued on end caps and gorilla tape re-enforcing. Rush was all about cutting costs and thinking outside the tube.
@@user-mf6xm1rp9f well I think it is super disgusting and to me personally very distracting to listen to... Fun fact: This kind of constant lip licking and tongue flipping and saliva slushing is a telltale sign of a person taking amphetamines... but it could be just bad habit.
The loud bang should have been it for the Titan. Nothing short of a full investigation should have been conducted and the sub put on hold until the issue was fully understood.
They were out of money going on there it will be ok just do this drive we can pay staff again . Yes it should have been stopped I don’t understand why so many said it was dangerous but they wouldn’t listen did they have money in it ? The guy couldn’t afford to pay them the threat of legal was a scare tactic
@@nataliescott2261 Yeah, I suspect you're right. We can all look down on Stockton for all sorts of reasons but it's not easy surviving paycheck to paycheck, or worse. It should have stopped, he should have got a job in a corner shop, but ambition and pride get in the way of all kinds of sensible courses of action!
Im a retired mechanical engineer and in my time I got to work on many different materials. Sometimes tight tolerences might be flexible depending on the application. However, whenever a safety issue was present the tolerences would be maintained without question. I would say just a general view of the design and construction of the sub indicated it was flawed, it didnt look like it would work safely to me. However, now the serious lack of attention to the quality of construction of the hull has been shown, coupled with the extreme pressure of the deep and the return to normal surface pressure, the sub was always going to fail. Im astounded that anyone with a basic understanding of engineering went on board. This vessel was not professionally designed or manufactured.
What astonishes me is that this guy with all the money he has built the submersible as if he was was a Chinese manufacturer making a counterfeit product.
Think he sold it on its new type sub everyone’s been on those old designs be one of the first to try this. Probably spoke with such confidence people believed him .
This is going to sound very morbid, but I assure you it's nothing more than physics curiosity. I really hope they go into the human remains they supposedly found. What exactly did they find I wonder.
Is it though? I think we know enough about Stockton Rush that this sort of thing should be expected. Narcissism and hubris are about as compatible with engineering as carbon fiber is with submarines.
@@seban678 I don't know.. for me it's like the narcissism needs to stretch quite a bit into detachment from reality to use carbon fiber for a submersible. The material is meant to stand internal pressure. Let's say, just borrow a carbon fiber structure thing, for example, a bike frame, it' sinks 1/4" when you sit on it. After all when Narcissus fell in love with himself, he knew that there were seven pretty fairies around.
From the manufacturing video clip. the guy degreasing the rim didn't wear gloves. When he just wiped clean an area with his right hand, he put his left hand on it...
I love how they used acoustic and strain gauges with absolutely no industry standard baseline to determine caution and warning thresholds. They set this based on results gained all within their own designs on a bleeding edge solution (carbon fiber hull submersible), that had no rigorous, repeated lab tests. In other words it was all made up.
It's a bit late to figure out that this RTM was some poorly designed and chosen system in a such a way that amateurism would be an insult to amateurs. This should have been done before, so soemone with legal authority could have shoved up Stockton stupid's face the fact his "sub" place was in the museum of horrendous ideas.
You could argue that the real time monitoring system did its job. It identified a permanent inelastic deformation on dive 80. Stockton et al chose to ignore the warning.
@@nigelbarker8726 You're right - I should have proofread myself, I realized it re-reading my comment. What I meant was that the fact they chose that RTM as a warning system to be able to react to an issue, was less than "amateurish", in a sense that the system will in fact tell the issue but at no point that will allow them to face a catastrophic scenario. And while they were at it with sensors, one could think they could have placed much more than that for more detailed information regarding damages.
My guess is a failure of the glued joint, air was trapped when they lowered the ring on the carbon tube, preventing a uniform adhesion on certain points around the ring. Leading to the carbon tube to shear the inner lip of the Titanium ring and initiate the collapse. The loud bang was the hull returning to it’s place when the pressure was lowered on a previous dive. The next dive proved to be catastrophic.
You already had the drawing of Titan where sensors were located,couldn't you do the same when talking about the carbon fiber,with arrows pointing at where the flaws were located.
Wow, this is a total disaster. Didn’t know it was that bad. Get Tony Nissin back and put it to him, whoever holds title of engineering director needs jail time. Rush is a trump, just need say no and resign or be fired.
Wildest thing is they saw this and said yup, I’ll go under in my shit tube. This is the most damning piece of evidence, every single business and person who worked on this is just as guilty as Rush.
I'm no engineering dr, but None of this design made any sense to me, the second I heard about Titan being lost, and finding out it was CF. None of that made any sense. Just ignoring the fact I would not want to be in any submarine under water, as there is NO way out if things go pear shaped. I do trust metalurgy enough that I believe its possible to make a safe craft for any depth possible. But CF?? I would not trust it for 500 meter, I would not let anybody I know dive with CF .. much less 4000 meter depth with CF It boggles the mind how anybody with real engineering could convince themselves this is a good idea.. and to be willing to work on such an idea. Surely if you are into CF, you would know this is a bad idea?? And how very rich people can be so naieve that they be a paying passenger on this thing, and simply "trust" them it is safe.. when you are that rich you can get all the advice from a miriad of educated specialists in the fields needed to build a sub.
A low temp resin wet lay wouldve been better, prepreg is way too hard to remove air and get the heat into the bottom layer to cure it. Also the peelply bond wouldve created air voids. But of an odd design and process.
If i understand the hearing they tried something like that (albeit probably at room temperature) and couldn't make it work, probably due to shoddy workmanship, and then went with this as an option. Also I suspect this hearing is the only time when these carbon fiber hulls have been analysed using anything approaching relevancy with a microscope. Hell even the bolts used on the F-16's when I was in service 20 years ago saw more thorough analysis before reuse than this one of a kind deep sea submersible did.
@@aBoogivogi yea crazy hey mate. Ive worked with prepreg before and unless you can allow the resin to outgass etc while curing and layup, its not the best product to use, also the never mentioned the resin percentage, usually its 30-45% but if it were me, id be using 50%. I use infusion because there air is removed before the resin enters the part. Never had any problems.
This guy needs to drink some water
the only thing i could think of the entire presentation lmao
That and his microphone desperately needs a pop filter.
Cottonmouth Joe 😂
A minute in and I'm thirsty. Ironic, given that we're talking about something that was under *a lot* of water.
I thought the slimy mouth noises were part of the script, they're so prominent
As a graduate engineer, the total lack of homogeneity or consistency in the cured layup was astonishing in a vessel subjected to such enormous stresses. The amateur way wrinkles were ground out is also alarming as when you cut the fibres you are weakening the matrix
Well, all production methods have errors to some degree and sometimes they are more acceptable than others.
Ie. if this a missile, that only needs to work once, through the air is quite a bit different from taking 5 passengers with you to the titanic. Repeatedly.
Proper testing would probably have shown that you absolutely can build a carbon fiber hulled submarine to go to the titanic, but no more than eg. 5 times safely, with these particular production methods.
That would probably have sunk the company (in a better way than what happened) and somebody didn't want to accept that.
@@nt78stonewobble It certainly is an interesting prospect to consider. Had they ACTUALLY put forth the effort and time to create a high quality and near voidless CFRC that they would absolutely 100% be alive right now. But the shear level of flaws and quality of layup is just astonishingly bad.
But yeah I mean if they actually had gave a shit, none of this would've happened. And they probably could've made an industry off of limited use cheap carbon hulls.
The entire concept of using carbon fiber ANYTHING in a submersible at that depth is ridiculous. This is WAY stupid, up there with the futuristic 40's idea of airplanes that can fly right into the sea and become submarines. There's NO engineering consideration involving weight reduction that can't be offset in the final weigh-in by additional buoyancy. And at sixty-two pounds per cubic foot, buoyancy is cheap.
@@Telephonebill51 Well, the US navy did look into unmanned carbon fiber submarines and did quite a lot of testing on it.
@@Telephonebill51 The Navy did it (and did it right). It’s possible when taking into consideration that it’s a limited use scenario, but more importantly when they actually produce the carbon composite pressure hull properly with multiple orders of magnitude of precision.
It’s not that carbon composites shouldn’t be used, it’s that they shouldn’t be used indefinitely. If they had accepted the fact that Titan would always need a new hull after a few key dives, this wouldn’t have happened. Stockton did have a sound idea, but he was too cheap and too arrogant to admit the Titan needed far greater precision and rigorous testing.
Strain gages to warn of failure in a non-ductile material is nonsense.
“Warning: You died 500ms ago”
The worst part is that they sort of did their job. Though they didn't function as described by Rush. They still indicated that some damage to the hull had occurred and Rush ignored them, which only goes to show that he either didn't believe in them, or he just didn't give AF. Either way, the term, "Safety Theatre" is absolutely right.
@@bunnybinksoncpActually 5ms (allowing for the scan time of the recorder)…
@@bunnybinksoncp: "Warning: OMAE WA MOU SHINDEIRU"
@@deltasyn7434: If he hadn't brought four other people with him, this would be pure comedy.
I heard that Rush was drawing up plans for the Titan II and that It was going to be two washing machines duct taped together.
Refrigerator has better seal.
I heard he was going to use schedule 80 PVC sewer pipe with glued on end caps and gorilla tape re-enforcing. Rush was all about cutting costs and thinking outside the tube.
@@esphilee Does not matter, the pressure will stick 'em together...
No no, @@snappingbear, he was going to use flextape and have an extra roll available on dives to slap on any problems.
And a few My Pillows for comfort
Jesus, it was just sloppy through and through from the get go. This is just irresponsible.
Truly...
The constant saliva sounds just stoooooop
tf would you care about that??
@@user-mf6xm1rp9f well I think it is super disgusting and to me personally very distracting to listen to...
Fun fact: This kind of constant lip licking and tongue flipping and saliva slushing is a telltale sign of a person taking amphetamines... but it could be just bad habit.
He needs water or moved away from the microphone, something, it's driving me insane any more 😂😆😆
stockton macguyvered the fuck out of this thing
he sure did lmao
I think you're giving him too much credit.
@@Alfonso_111 a makeshift sub 🤣
More like Magoobered.
Mad-guy-vered seemed more likely 😮.
Where’s part 2?
I forgot who said this, during a rapid implosion, you cease to be biology and become just physics
Actually according to the official testimony he along with the others became a "paste".
Scott Manley
the original quote I believe was from the XKCD webcomic "Sunbeam."
@@seetengtan6746 XKCD is always the best place to start when you look for origins of quotes like this .-)
Drink the damned water!!
So they went back down in a damaged/compromised hull, basically.
Porosity within the resin 😬😬 I know nothing of engineering, but I don't like how that sounds
The loud bang should have been it for the Titan. Nothing short of a full investigation should have been conducted and the sub put on hold until the issue was fully understood.
They were out of money going on there it will be ok just do this drive we can pay staff again . Yes it should have been stopped I don’t understand why so many said it was dangerous but they wouldn’t listen did they have money in it ? The guy couldn’t afford to pay them the threat of legal was a scare tactic
@@nataliescott2261 Yeah, I suspect you're right. We can all look down on Stockton for all sorts of reasons but it's not easy surviving paycheck to paycheck, or worse.
It should have stopped, he should have got a job in a corner shop, but ambition and pride get in the way of all kinds of sensible courses of action!
Im a retired mechanical engineer and in my time I got to work on many different materials. Sometimes tight tolerences might be flexible depending on the application. However, whenever a safety issue was present the tolerences would be maintained without question.
I would say just a general view of the design and construction of the sub indicated it was flawed, it didnt look like it would work safely to me. However, now the serious lack of attention to the quality of construction of the hull has been shown, coupled with the extreme pressure of the deep and the return to normal surface pressure, the sub was always going to fail. Im astounded that anyone with a basic understanding of engineering went on board.
This vessel was not professionally designed or manufactured.
What astonishes me is that this guy with all the money he has built the submersible as if he was was a Chinese manufacturer making a counterfeit product.
Think he sold it on its new type sub everyone’s been on those old designs be one of the first to try this. Probably spoke with such confidence people believed him .
This is going to sound very morbid, but I assure you it's nothing more than physics curiosity. I really hope they go into the human remains they supposedly found. What exactly did they find I wonder.
your morbid curiosity is amusing :)
leme asnwer for you, human mashed potatoes
Pulp
@@Alfonso_111 fish feed
Ground beef, maybe some bone shards
Turn the audio off if you suffer from misophonia, just read the captions. Trust me.
😂 true. Painful to listen to
It is surprising how poor the workmanship was.
Surprised he didn’t used plastic bottles and duck tape
Is it though? I think we know enough about Stockton Rush that this sort of thing should be expected. Narcissism and hubris are about as compatible with engineering as carbon fiber is with submarines.
@@seban678 I don't know.. for me it's like the narcissism needs to stretch quite a bit into detachment from reality to use carbon fiber for a submersible. The material is meant to stand internal pressure. Let's say, just borrow a carbon fiber structure thing, for example, a bike frame, it' sinks 1/4" when you sit on it.
After all when Narcissus fell in love with himself, he knew that there were seven pretty fairies around.
From the manufacturing video clip. the guy degreasing the rim didn't wear gloves. When he just wiped clean an area with his right hand, he put his left hand on it...
I keep thinking of the video where they’re slapping on gobs of glue for the ring mounts. I know some 2nd graders with a finer glue up technique.
The manufacturing company is also guilty for their deaths it seems like. Not only the stubborn/dumb Rush
oh yea lots of liability here. but they will all blame the decision maker. or the most vocal and charistmatic.
I love how they used acoustic and strain gauges with absolutely no industry standard baseline to determine caution and warning thresholds. They set this based on results gained all within their own designs on a bleeding edge solution (carbon fiber hull submersible), that had no rigorous, repeated lab tests. In other words it was all made up.
The guy made a champagne tour but with beer budget to build it
A lot of information
It's a bit late to figure out that this RTM was some poorly designed and chosen system in a such a way that amateurism would be an insult to amateurs. This should have been done before, so soemone with legal authority could have shoved up Stockton stupid's face the fact his "sub" place was in the museum of horrendous ideas.
You could argue that the real time monitoring system did its job. It identified a permanent inelastic deformation on dive 80. Stockton et al chose to ignore the warning.
@@nigelbarker8726 You're right - I should have proofread myself, I realized it re-reading my comment. What I meant was that the fact they chose that RTM as a warning system to be able to react to an issue, was less than "amateurish", in a sense that the system will in fact tell the issue but at no point that will allow them to face a catastrophic scenario. And while they were at it with sensors, one could think they could have placed much more than that for more detailed information regarding damages.
@@movzhepok Oh, I agree. Especially with the acoustic emissions. The really telling one is the big one at the end.
Whoever built the carbon fibre parts is now in a car leaving Bogata for Lima. And shall never be seen again....
Goo. where is part 2?
I was wondering this too
5:23 Whoever that was, thank you for your service.
That was a pretty damning presentation
How the heck do you even make those smacking sounds with your mouth??
My guess is a failure of the glued joint, air was trapped when they lowered the ring on the carbon tube, preventing a uniform adhesion on certain points around the ring. Leading to the carbon tube to shear the inner lip of the Titanium ring and initiate the collapse. The loud bang was the hull returning to it’s place when the pressure was lowered on a previous dive. The next dive proved to be catastrophic.
Sooooooo…. I could have built something of similar quality in my damn garage. This is Mind blowing.
Looks like if they didn't botch the manufacturing process those four people could still be alive.
You already had the drawing of Titan where sensors were located,couldn't you do the same when talking about the carbon fiber,with arrows pointing at where the flaws were located.
someone give the poor man a bottle of water! the mouth sounds are like nails on chalkboard!
Wow, this is a total disaster. Didn’t know it was that bad. Get Tony Nissin back and put it to him, whoever holds title of engineering director needs jail time. Rush is a trump, just need say no and resign or be fired.
For 250k if you are a thrill seeker better get a Lamborghini
If the sub has 'experimental' in its name, you might not wanna climb into it just yet.
Wildest thing is they saw this and said yup, I’ll go under in my shit tube.
This is the most damning piece of evidence, every single business and person who worked on this is just as guilty as Rush.
I'm more surprised that the Titan lasted as long as it did.
As sloppy as this video.
god forbid we do basic decent editing on this video before uploading it.
The first model was just a kiddie pool
the BANG
The “bang “ was is the drive before or on the last drive ?
According to Reddit they had two more successful dives in July of 2022 after that.
These hearings are submersible and are certified to a depth of 4000 m.
Well we can safely say that things went south quickly .
I'm here for the anomalies. 😮
The audio at these hearings is UNACCEPTABLE. Absolute joke.
This Aadme nervous as HELL, varying his voyce, coughing gulping quivering modulating etc ummnn
I'm no engineering dr, but None of this design made any sense to me, the second I heard about Titan being lost, and finding out it was CF.
None of that made any sense.
Just ignoring the fact I would not want to be in any submarine under water, as there is NO way out if things go pear shaped.
I do trust metalurgy enough that I believe its possible to make a safe craft for any depth possible.
But CF?? I would not trust it for 500 meter, I would not let anybody I know dive with CF .. much less 4000 meter depth with CF
It boggles the mind how anybody with real engineering could convince themselves this is a good idea.. and to be willing to work on such an idea.
Surely if you are into CF, you would know this is a bad idea??
And how very rich people can be so naieve that they be a paying passenger on this thing, and simply "trust" them it is safe.. when you are that rich you can get all the advice from a miriad of educated specialists in the fields needed to build a sub.
i know they found some sort of human remains, where they ever DNA tested ?
Yes, the red paste in the stern dome was tested and contained DNA for all five occupants.
A low temp resin wet lay wouldve been better, prepreg is way too hard to remove air and get the heat into the bottom layer to cure it. Also the peelply bond wouldve created air voids. But of an odd design and process.
If i understand the hearing they tried something like that (albeit probably at room temperature) and couldn't make it work, probably due to shoddy workmanship, and then went with this as an option. Also I suspect this hearing is the only time when these carbon fiber hulls have been analysed using anything approaching relevancy with a microscope. Hell even the bolts used on the F-16's when I was in service 20 years ago saw more thorough analysis before reuse than this one of a kind deep sea submersible did.
@@aBoogivogi yea crazy hey mate. Ive worked with prepreg before and unless you can allow the resin to outgass etc while curing and layup, its not the best product to use, also the never mentioned the resin percentage, usually its 30-45% but if it were me, id be using 50%.
I use infusion because there air is removed before the resin enters the part. Never had any problems.
This guy needs a pop filter. Like gross, unlistenable. I need more window zaddy.
Can you learn to express yourself in better and more correct English ! Thankyou
His intent wasn't to entertain you, this isn't Idiocracy
I found it very unpleasant and distracting lol
Stockton was like all I need is a Swiss army knife