🔵Oxalic Acid experiment UPDATE and inspection!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2019
- Limitations of Oxalic acid vapor and test colony inspection.
Timing your splits for a good mite kill in this video • HARDCORE Mite Eliminat...
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Kamon, I have been using OAV since it has been legal to use and I use a Pro Vap 110 now. I think that people get hung up in what Randy Oliver recommends on how many time you should treat your bees with OAV. As you said six treatments four days apart which is about three weeks or one brood cycle. I started out treating once a week for three weeks years ago and I quickly expanded that to six consecutive weeks or two brood cycles. Yes the majority of the mites are under the cappings and with that knowledge beekeepers must treat their hive for longer periods of time with OAV to kill the mites as they come out from under the capped brood to get the best results from a OA treatment. Your experiment is proving OAV does work but it will take six weeks of treatment to fix your experimental hive. I would continue with the OAV treatments with six more treatments four days apart. This year I have change my treatment program using OAV from treating once a week to twice a week for six weeks, hopefully this will give me a lot of 0 and 1 mite load counts. Keep up the good work Kamon.
16:16 So funny I watched it three times... laughed out loud all three times.
Good for you. Know thine self.
I actually came looking for this video as a conclusion. I am very thankful of your time. Your attention to detail and willingness to share puts these videos at university level courses.
I would never have gone down the road of bees with out people like you to share their knowledge.
Kamon, although it's extremely valuable to have differing opinions in any conversation, some folks are still learning how to present their opinion in a constructive manner...and some don't even try. I admire your ability to get your ideas across in a manner that is incredibly informative, graceful and with a fabulous sense of humor. You set a great example...I, myself, have taken a page from your book and am trying to swear less (hard to do when you're surrounded by it!). Now, I notice some of my circle has started policing their language, after teasing me mercilessly for a good while. You have a butterfly effect on many folks, so celebrate yourself, and never forget that behind every great man is a great woman (props to Laurel)!
As an aside, may I ask, how do you like the HandyLift? Do you ever think the electric model would have been preferred? Thank you for your guidance!
That's how you can change the world. Starting from yourself. Butterfly effect +1 ;)
I dont mean to be so offtopic but does any of you know a method to get back into an instagram account?
I somehow forgot my password. I love any tricks you can offer me.
@Orion Henrik Instablaster =)
@Damien Dalton thanks so much for your reply. I found the site thru google and I'm waiting for the hacking stuff atm.
I see it takes quite some time so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Damien Dalton It did the trick and I now got access to my account again. I'm so happy:D
Thank you so much you saved my account :D
Enjoyed the video. Had a colony about mid summer over run with mites. Larva had that pale brown color, DWV, what brood was capped had very little of. Couple shots of Ox and they are now a strong viable colony. All with the original queen. Went to the EAS meeting and 1 of the speakers said to just terminate the hive if it was in this bad a condition. Glad to see you giving those girls a chance.
Bryan’s Bee Yard It’s not in a beekeeper’s nature to give up.
What a lot of those people don't understand, is that it's a numbers game. Even the most resistant strain is going to succumb to the varroa, it's just a matter of time until mite numbers become unmanageable, the resistant strains give them more time. If we can give them a boost, they'll be fine. One problem is, we have some really good survivor stock that people just let die off (maybe after 3 years) because they refuse to help the bees. We need those genetics! They are actually harming the bees.
Hey, Kamon, Thanks for sharing this. It would take me years to gather the experience you share with us. It is always helpful to have another set of experience and another point of view. Keep it up,mand ignore the naysayers. Stu
I did a round of 2 MAQS strips in all my hives, but one of them I counted 3 visible phoretic mites on a super frame. I honestly didn't even bother washing. After seeing that, I threw everything, pretty much exactly the same as your're doing, at them. (2 others of comparable size washed a 0 and 1). The formic seems to have killed the original queen (they made tons of emergency cells), so I re-queened from a NUC, then I added Apivar and began OAV treatments. Winter here is too cold for sick bees to have a shot at making it through strong, so hopefully another strong round of brood and they'll be back on track.
Thanks. You are a great teacher and I appreciate you
Hi Kamon
I hope you both had a good holiday and managed some rest.
Don't be disheartened by the final count, on those mites.
How does the percentage compare with other colonies?
A 75% reduction is just that. 75%.
If you start with overly high numbers, you'll still have overly high numbers when you finish.
Remember too, you've only had them on one overall course of treatment and they were in a dire state when you started.
They will probably need treatment longer into the winter, than most other colonies, and that's ok.
Persevere with them. They'll be grateful come the spring!
Thank you for the video, and for being so honest with it, and also for the little view through the window of your life. 👍
Thanks for the update and information! Very good knowledge to have. Thanks!
Glad to see your family have some family time. Keep the vids coming, great information.
To remember when treating with Apivar is that it is not an instant fast treatment, it will take time to see results.
Almost forgot....thank you for the info. This will help me very much....in florida it is a constant battle....
Tank you Kamon for the update.
You're a wealth of information! Keep them coming!
Thanks, Kamon! Once again, a terrific video offering valuable knowledge based on experience.
Smart idea of using Apivar. We in the ag industry love to double down when we need to. Anybody putting 2 strips of formic acid on that weak hive with temps anywhere close to 85 degrees would have a dead colony or one so weak it wouldn't have time to recover before winter. Good luck Kamon and thanks to you and Laurel.
I use apivar in july where mites are the worst the oa in the winter and a apiguard spring treatment.
Loving this experiment. Learning a lot. Thanks for the knowledge!
Hi Kamon, +1 thumbs up from me. There is a way to use formic acid in hot temperatures up to 35C. You have to use 60% FA + Nassenheider Professional, the temperature range indicated on the label to obtain the best performances with this evaporator without damaging the bees goes from + 8 to + 35 °C. Of course for larger operation you have to think about DIY fumigator, like I did. I'm using only formic acid and thymol. Good luck and greetings from Poland.
Thanks and that sounds interesting. I hope to experiment with formic in the future.
Love the videos been watching you guys all season and you've helped me out a bunch. Thank you.
Let's name that colony Eleanor hopefully they thrive and make it
Kamon, have you ever heard of plastic foundation which is impregnated with miticide? If the place varroa hide is in the brood, it seems to make sense to have the miticide right there in the cells.
Never heard of that mark.
Bob Binnie said he went upto 4 grams (is that unit right) of OA and treated 3x In the fall and they were hammered. Said that experiments may result in new research and treatment options.....
Thank you
Kamon, thanks for the info. 😁👍
What I have heard is that if your bees find a hive weakened by varroa, and rob it out, they also carry home those mites. Perhaps that is what happened?
Happy Wife = Happy Life !!!!
Thanks !!
I treated my hive with a new queen that was laying , 2 days ago with OA.
Yesterday and today the bees dragged out a lot of dead larvae.....But I thing the larvae did not die because of the treatment , but because they where to weak or sick already.
From my experience with formic acid treatments I found that the queen stops laying for around five days. Five days worth of brood lost.
I have killed the queen on a small hive within 24 hours and on my other small hive there was a pile of dead bees out front the next two days and the brood was set back hard. This was in MN where we hardly ever get above 80 and it was in the 70's for highs when I treated. Big hives can fan enough fresh air inside I suppose. Be careful with that stuff on small colonies.
Bees started taking sugar water about 4 days ago here in Nashville. Still not taking pollen sub.
Bees started taking pollen sub about 4 days ago.
Did you ever try dosing @ 2g/deep? Some experiments from UFL and OSU are showing much better efficacy with that dosage. Sounds like you were using 1.5/deep on the colony in the video.
Have you checked the cook-pot floor temp with an infrared thermometer at sublimation? IF the floor temp is above 370F at vaporization the OA is destroyed and will not kill the mites. This test is a must to ensure cook-pot floor temp is between 320 and 350F. My set temp is 455F to achieve that floor temp. Check your floor temp as the OUT light goes off at set temp, that could the problem, to high temp.
I wonder what would happen if you pulled the capped brood and nurse bees out to a nuc and create a situation simulating a colony that has just formed out of a swarm in the original hive? You would have the original queen and a low count of nurse bees. At that point treating with OAV would not have any capped brood that would go untreated. Then wait for the capped brood to hatch in the nuc and then treat and recombine.
Does it help these recovery hives to add an upper box of food supplies - sugar water & pollen patty? If so, what concentration of sugar water in the Fall do you use?
Great series, really interesting to see the progress. I would have loved to see how thermal treatment like the Mighty Mite would have made a difference. It isn't practical for a keeper of your scale for all use but it might be a great problem solver for really bad off hives.
We are doing an update this week on the colony so I am excited for that. Yes I agree! Testing out a thermal mite killer would be awesome and hopefully we can do just that next year
It takes 3-4 hours per hive to set it up and treat with the mighty mite, per my equipment supplier/seller, which has 20 hives and borrowing it from the bee club. The bees do not like it and get aggressive. He said that you should treat 2-3 times a year with it. Takes a lot of time doing it this way.
My locals using the MM note that the bees become flighty but not necessarily aggressive. Their other feedback is that the bees become very calm and often experience a population boom after treatment. I do agree that its time consuming and have suggested to Lynn that a multi channel controller is probably the way forward. This seems to be the only treatment that can affect capped brood that is available, i can't wait to try one for myself.
@@T0tenkampf
Thanks for the info.
I do not know yet, but I may try to use one this year. I would like to see the results.
Did you ever use one?
I just saw a video that said studies show using more oxalic acid than recommend is less effective. I don't know if it is true. I've been doubling the recommended dose of acid, but I plan on cutting back to the recommended dose. Thank you for your videos.
I've done what you suggest and treated my new packages. I found mite loads in the new packages at 4 per 100. After my second treatment I used a sticky board to check. One board showed 8 mites total so I'm happy. The other showed 50 mites and that's too high.
How can packages have so many mites (rhetorical question).
I had a thought about varroa resistant bees.
Are they really resistant to varroa or are those the same bees that come to your hive that you treated for mites and they carry those chemicals back to their home varroa resistant hive.
Are they really resistant to mites or do those bees get in contact with neighboring treated bees?
You are doing what I would do, I would replace the queen, hit them with OAV every 5 days for 40 Days then check to see if they are responding. Almost always lose 50 to 75% of the population if you see deformed wings so dropping clean brood after your 40 day wash is almost always needed to give them a chance. But Like you said, Might not be able to save them once you see the deformed wing. Never seen a mite load so high as the one you get to experiment with so it is a great opportunity to watch you from afar (Ohio).
Thanks for sharing you knowledge. I was wondering if you can overdose them on OA or us it to many times? Glad you had a good vacation my wife is requesting one, so we will be taking one next month. Please keep the videos coming.
I have not noticed an issue after using 6 treatments of OAV. I am sure it slightly stresses them out. OA, formic, thymol, all of the natural treatments stress them to different degrees. Mites stress them out to so finding the right balance is important
Two thumbs up.
Kamon....do you ever use intentional brood breaks as an additional means of varroa control?
I don't, but I do like timing splits to have a couple days of full mite exposure. I plan on doing some experiments on broodless OAV and OAD in the future.
@@kamonreynolds Have you ever explored OTS Queen Rearing techniques and how it uses brood breaks to create a chemical free mite management system? Again it is a mite management system not a mite eradication system
It could very well be that the OA is doing its job and the mites are being brought in by the robbing of an infested feral hive. A hive that may be in the verge of absconding or even collapse, therefore bringing in a steady supply of fresh mites.
Built drone comb when closet take it and destroy it. More atractive from worker cell. Drone cell like magnet varroa loves dro e cell. Keep going oxa vap..
@Kamon Reynolds Also, I'm testing the method discussed here on Randy Oliver's website scientificbeekeeping.com/extended-release-oxalic-acid-progress-report-4/. About 2/3rds of the way down a recipe is given for making the Oxalic acid towels. We will see how well it works.
How good do you think the sugar test are over the alcohol is ????
Blessings to your work... Is there a screened bottom board on that hive? Also, did you try the powdered sugar treatment on that hive? Just thinking about bringing out all the ammunition.
Hi Kamon.
Here in the UK we're still in winter with daytime temperatures around 3°C
Can I treat with oxalic acid now?
Thanks.
Stuart
Why do you not try Beeweaver queens. They control mites very well. Very low if any mites in wash
I tried those about a decade ago and didn't find they lived up to the hype. Same goes with the ankle biters, VSH, Minnesota hygenics, saskatraz, and TF queens I have bought from well known TF people.
Good video, my son sold his 16 hives to help pay for his college. We need someone with hives to help us with an experiment. Would you be so kind to run with this? Will need to start soon. Cost you little time and money.
Oh yes, essential oil... the magic of our day...
I would move the colony to full sun. My best colonies are in full sun on blacktop.
Thanks Kamon. I have a couple of questions. Will OAV kill the mites in Uncapped Brood ? Did you leave Apivar in the hive during OAV ? Have you ever heard of just laying the strips on the frames instead of hanging them ? What about leaving a patty and sugar sub in the hive during OAV treatment ? Thanks !
I'll try to answer 2 of the questions. OAV doesn't kill mites when capped and mites don't go into brood until the bees start capping the larvae. Bees that are hygienic will smell if a mite gets in with the larvae after its capped and go in and destroy the varroa mite it's eggs and the bee larvae. This will give a shotgun capped brood appearance so good beekeepers look at the larvae pattern not the capped brood pattern.
2nd Apivar works when the bees rub against the strip. More bees will rub against it when laid between frames.
Not sure about feeding - I think it's ok and probably recommended. The stronger the colony the better they can fight off other problems.
Thank you Russell Koopman.
Hi kamon about OA if the bottom board was mesh but blocked off from underneath with corn flute you would get a fairly accurate mite drop count without having to do a wash every time. Also do you know if OA kills the newly laid eggs and does the residual acid that stay in the comb effect the laying of the queen .
Really enjoy your clips ,straight to the point. Cheers for sharing. Kiwi.
Hey Neil. Thanks for the compliment! I wondered that myself so I started marking a frame of eggs, hitting them with OAV from my pro vap and checking the brood pattern after the eggs hatched 3 days later. This test isn't real into depth but I wasn't able to notice egg or brood loss after OA vaporization. OA dribble can burn the brood a little though in my experience.
That mite is nasty, great reduction in mite loads given how high it was. The OAV was probably the only way you could have knocked them that hard in the time frame, in a low load hive it is probably the weapon of choice really.
OAV is not a good system.
It has too many limitations.
Kamon I have been waiting for this video to come out, Interesting how many varroa are still hanging about, I have just finished an Apiguard treatment on my hive and am still getting over 50 mite drop per day on bottom board, would you recommend adding Apivar strips?
If they need it, I'd give it. Or something. Those little devils are a pain in the butt
Same here no rain since early Aug 95-100f every day :(
Sorry Lin it is a bummer! Hope you get rain soon!
@@kamonreynolds We are supposed to get some today but temps still incredibly high 15-20 degrees above norms for us. In 2-3 days we won't even be able to tell it rained. Hope you get rain soon. Thank you for the very informative video.
Hi Kamon, can you provide a tips video on removing bees from the honey supers? All your videos are helpful!
Lol I'm dealing with that myself.
Buy a bee excluder and two days later they're gone.
There is a couple ways to do it. Bee escapes, fume boards are the most common. I will get a video on that next time we remove honey. Richard Noel's channel has some info on bee escapes
th-cam.com/video/DsfKjEq52e0/w-d-xo.html
Devan has a lot of great videos out of Canada. I use the bee escapes. The fumeboards and liquids smell bad. I look forward to another beekeepers use and experience using bee escapes.
Must put some fresh rhubarb leaves on the frames they love it
What does it mean if your young larva looks kind of yellow?
AFB or EFB - hopefully I'm wrong.??
Kamon, a recent study by Toomema doi.org/10.1080/00218839.2018.1486695 used 5g of OA /1 liter of water and applied 20 ml/comb space of bees. This dose applies half as much OA to the bees but the greater amount of solution likely results in better dispersal.
I plan to use this when my bees become broodless.
On a small scale. Can you use foggers to apply the oa? Just thinking $$$
Kamon, you look more rested, you looked pretty worn out before, you're even smiling now, lol.
Thank you so much! Question: do you keep the apivar strips while oav application? Good husband taking time for wife and family!
Hi Trooper Girl! I will use the OAV with the Apivar. small dose of OAV once a week for 3 weeks with the strips.
If you are treating with Oxalic Acid vapors, why use the Apivar strips?
Amitraz ,with paper stripe between frames and one stripe down on the floor at main enter.Amitraz act at touch,varoua get paralyzed when they are touch by amitraz.
What else does italic acid kill? Moths,? Ect?
Joel,
It's oxalic acid.
So enjoying your experiment! I hope you do not get another hive like this, but if you do, please do it with OA Dribble. I want to understand the effect of multiple treatments as you have been doing here.
Great Idea Mark!
Dribble is less effective then vaporizer
I found an article I think on Randy Oliver's web site where they are using 20 cc per frame at a reduced concentration of OA. The total OA is reduced in 1/2 but with the increased amount used gives a better kill. I printed it out for use this fall.
@@russellkoopman3004 Ah I haven't read that but that sounds like something I need to read!
did the bees die ?
after a lot of work. I am glad to say they somehow pulled thru and are a production sized colony. With a good flow I hope to pull 100lbs of honey off of them this year
Why do the alcohol wash if you know you’re hives have mites sorry but I’m first year bee keeper
I'm a first year keeper myself. If your mite levels are too high they will not make it though the winter. I'm located in Massachusetts and our winter can really su@k. I didn't do a mite check but treated anyway. I used formic pro back in July and had very few dead mite on the bottom board. I put Apivar strips in two weeks ago and was surprised at the amount of dead mites after three days.
I'm planning on doing a alcohol wash soon just for piece of mind. Just my two cents.
You have to check for mites, and know a rough level of mites so you can determine the treatment.
You'd also check for mites as routine. Nobody should treat, just in case, or without knowing what they're treating.
A mite count before you start will also indicate if the treatment is effective, when compared to progress and a final count.
@@beekeeper1889 I second that. I would add that, on a commercial scale, deciding to treat is a matter of expense...both money and time. And as Kamon mentioned, treatment at the wrong time or with the wrong type can cost a lot of brood. That can cost you the colony, which in turn loses you income. It seems that understanding that balance is one of the factors that determines your profit for the year...indeed, your success as a beekeeper.
@@beekeeper1889 I really want to do a mite check but all the "easy check varroa" are on backorder!
@@tedjackson5272 You can make your own. I made mine similar to Randy Olliver's cup: scientificbeekeeping.com/an-improved-but-not-yet-perfect-varroa-mite-washer/
Good informative videos Kamon keep up the good work. I am curious what type of camera equipment do you and your wife use and the editing software? I am also doing a second round of 5 treatments with the OAV and I may get a 3rd one in before the cold snap.
Good morning Thomas! Wow, were your mite counts that high?
@@danskisbees7348 Persistent I would say, I am not going to lose out in a 3rd year better safe than sorry. How is the water there.
@@SuperBuickregal I can definitely understand that. It's been misting since late last night, so it's nice and cool right now. It was more of the same before that. I need to look at a Farmer's Almanac, I have a feeling we're do for a cold winter.
Just washed a 157........
Yikes!
Could that be a varroa bomb from robbing?
Possibly, but I purposely let this colony go treatment free to learn more myself about this 2 year old swarm and OAV efficiency.
Right, i got a chance to see the whole video. Now I see what’s going. Great info. Thanx
Buzz buzz buddy
Thanks barb but my phone thinks it's smarter than me. Are you going to correct my phones grammar also.????? Was looking for answers!
What would Nick Saban do? VAPE THEM!
What would Nick Saban do? Buy some more players of course !! 😁
vsh Italian bees.
Kamon please tell me why more beeks dont use genetics like VSH to keep mites down where you dont need to treat. 6 OA treatment times the number of hives add up to a lot of time and money...?
I have mentioned before they don't work. We have tried them. I found nothing special with any of the hygienic bees I purchased. Slows the mite down a little not enough to keep them alive without treatment and the bees are less productive. If they worked everyone would be using them on the professional level
Why is everyone avoiding treatment of viruses in their hives? In the ag industry it is not taboo to talk about remedies.
The bees already carry the viruses, their immune systems keep them in check. When the mites feed on the bees, it weakens their immune systems and the viruses are able to take hold.
Dan Ski's Bees definitely!💕
Don’t they reproduce exponentially?
@@lenoretalon9958 Yes.
I love the idea of treating viruses if it works and is cost effective. Ideally, I would keep the bees healthy enough that it wouldn't be needed. I am totally open to products that do work and don't contaminate anything.
Best thing to do with a Provap is hang it on the wall as an ornament.
The only way to control mites is have strips of some sort in the Brood.
The treatment, whatever it is needs to be maintained in the broodnest for 2 Drone cycles at least.
Apivar is 10 weeks.
Controlling mites is 90% people skills and 10% chemicals.
The Provac is a brilliant concept for Beekeepers who want to achieve a whole lot without doing a whole lot.
Thats an oxymoron.
It is irresponsible to keep hives that produce such high mite levels. You have all that information with the mite counts to do some selection. Please reduce mites and requeen from better stock with better mite management skills.
I don't do any treatments and have low mite counts in both brood and on adult bees in 2/3 to 3/4 of my hives even at this time of year (early July). As the year progresses I do mite counts and reflag some hives. On those I am forcing a brood break during our flow in June or July. I put the queen in a box above an excluder and every week I go through and pull any capped brood. This after pulling a frame of capped drone comb every time I go through a red flagged hive. Drones in good hives are left alone.
Some characteristics of good hives.
1. They should have low mite counts coming out of winter. I have near 0 mite counts for most of my hives coming out of winter without any treatment the past fall. Higher mite counts this time of year means they have terrible grooming skills. They should have killed most of the mites by spring. A high mite hive in spring is unlikely to respond properly to a brood break on its own. They don't groom mites. I don't do spring treatments as mites are low.
2. Slow growth of mite populations during the year. A spring and early summer sampling should indicate hives that do a better job of this than others.
There is no excuse for not doing some selection for low mites
Don't worry about other people....it seems these days individuals care about others opinions to much...everyone should keep an open mind...there is always something to learn.....anyways.. the cats have your back..hahahahahaha