Its ironic how some people say the game is not p2w n then also acknowledges the existence of whales in the game. Game is p2w. Its not the definition of p2w, but the mindset of the player which determines whether pay2win affects the way u play the game. It may not affect a casual player but the opposite applies to a competitive player. The whole p2w vs p2grogress argument is just dumb. If its pay2progress it will be pay2win. It just may not bother u the same way it bothers someone else.
12:25 The tanks that whale are OP, unkillable. -- I don't think it's P2W. You have a strange definition of P2W then, if you can swipe and a F2P player can't kill you anymore but you can kill them easily. Then you literally PAID to WIN that fight.
I say its not P2W, because you just run past them and don't engage lol, swipe 4k and still doesn't matter, how are you really winning? Thanks for the comment, although I do see your point of view!
One of the problems in this game imo is, if you are low geared or have many blue skills or not in strong guild the game punishes you lot. You literally dont stand a chance in local events because of high geared people especially who uses xbow/longbow literally get in top 50 easily. Meanwhile, you put an effort for 20mins and be 101th-150th and get shitty loot. In short, if you are strong you will always get good lucent and continue to grow your gear, but if you are weak you mostly stay as it is. The game doesnt allow bad geared-blue skilled people to grow. Unless you pay lucent ofc. So they need to change the local events reward system. Not even need to mention world bosses, again strong geared people get the loot thx to the contribution system..
The definition of P2W has changed over the years. It used to be that the game sells cashshop exclusive advantages that cannot be farmed in game, the most hardcore P2W(in the 90s and early 2000s and quickly became obsolete) and hardly any game has it now or in the last 2 decades. Later it evolved into the commonly used system where cashshops selling gear, upgrade crystals, dungeon tickets that you're heavily restricted on how much you can acquire through playing the game. F2P players can still utilize the cashshops through buying cashshop currencies from players using gold(either through RMT market or via cashshop monthly buff tokens) so they're not locked out of cashshop purchases. This is the highly debated P2W vs P2P. In T&L, this system was just simply moved from the cashshop to the auctionhouse so the devs won't lose money to RMT. Rohan Online, a 2008 MMO, used a similar system and it is a widely known P2W game. The process of facilitating P2W changes but how everything operates stays the same, thats all.
Couple of things that should have been pointed out to solo players right off the bat. This is a group/guild based game. It helps your grind tremendously when your in the highest rated guild on a server and have all the time in the world to grind PvP, RAIDS or Dungeons which you can join daily. Not a big social person? Unless you drop cash you'll never be top tier. Also, until your fully kitted out in purples and part of a group Zerg, don't bother to PvP. You'll be wiped instantly. This game is probably the most gear based game I've played other than BDO, and it's funny in this last patch they added even more BDO like notifications to the game. I really don't care if Joe Blow got that upgrade he just spent $75 for Lucent on. Overall, it's a visually awesome game that you'll have fun with until the typical KR grind kicks in. On a side note and my own personal opinion, Pay To Win and Pay To Progress are basically the same thing. What, you don't think the whale that dropped cash on new gear isn't going to use that new gear against you when you PvP or being top rated at events until you get to his level after a year of grinding 4 to 6 hours a day? These games are WHALE BASED, you can buy purple weapons, armor and accessories right off the bat in the market. They'll just keep dropping cash to buy lucents to keep buying traits and better purples to use them on. I love the game. Just be aware that it does have many flaws. No one from the west has really spent any money on it because it hasn't been released globally yet. There's still a long road ahead of us.
You can't buy purple stuff "right off the bat" as everyone keep saying. It is a mistake that clearly shows that such people don't know the game. The market is stocked and restocked BY THE PLAYERS. If there is nothing to buy you can eve donate 1 million of real money, you'll have to wait people that will discard what they don't need anymore to buy it. And for every transaction a whale does buying stuff, another one will gain such money..
I've to disagree on this one. You cant say that a game is " Pay 2 fast " or " Pay to progress " when you can buy a advantage that's gonna directly affect other players. Theses things only work for PvE only games, not PvP games. This is a PvP game, you're strongly underestimate whales & people that are wiling to swipe if they get bored of a thing at one point. If i'm able to instant buy a item (any piece + traits to max gear it) I'm buying a direct advantage to other players, that's P2W. You can't say that T&L is a game where you can just " avoid the whales " this is a mass pvp guild based game. Being able to buy items / traits / sollant to max gear yourself in a month, where a F2P player will need a undefined amount of time, based on his luck, that's P2W. Even if you can generate lucents with IG drops, you'll never be able to catch up. Don't lie to yourself because you made 17k lucents in 1month & a half, this is less that what whales have swipe in 1 day after the purge to catch back... This game is a great game, but its 100% Pay 2 Win, that's factual, whether you like it or not
what a troll :D did u even play KR version? U dont understand the "p2w" I made 10k lucents playing 2 hours a day in 1 month. I got full purple gear. +6 or more. and I didnt spend a single euro. So if u know what to do, ez ;) and Im able to pvp very well
Cool story, that doesn't change the fact that anyone can do what you farm in 1Month, in 1minute by swiping, making him gain a direct advantage on you. Being able to pay to obtain a direct advantage on other player is P2w. Even more on a PvP game Not being able to understand that point is pretty problematic. @@sykysykyc4436
Cool story, That doesn't change the fact that someone can do what you did in 1month (even if it was faster & more) in 1min by swiping, making him obtain a direct & instant advantage on you. Being able to pay to have a direct advantage on others make the game p2w, even more on a PvP game. Not being able to understand that is really problematic.@@sykysykyc4436
Well said, brother!! Hope this video helps to stop people from ruining the game by saying it is all about P2W. But it is actually PAY TO PROGRESS!!😊 can't wait for NA
The game is NOT P2W. People just like to stick that word everywhere, especially younger generations that plays mmorpg, just because there is a shop. I said that many times already and i might sound annoying but it's facts. People, those people especially, doest NOT know at all what P2W means. Not even slightly. I do play mmorpgs since 1998. Both me and my wife are pretty veterans at this point of the real DARK AGE of the P2W mmorpgs, where you could literally obtain stuff in the shop that was obtainable ONLY with real money (and this just to quote the quicker to explain, because there was WAY MORE shit in those shops), we do really know what P2W is. The Marinth stones are ofc an item you can get, like everything else (gear, traits, ecc...), but the main thing remains. and that is a fact: The market is NOT stocked by the dev team or the owner of the game. Paying or not, it (the market) NEED to be supplied. And the supply comes from players. So it is not like.. if you make a donation and get Luciens you can buy right away... there must be stocks in that you can take. Also, commonly speaking, the things you find there are "discarded stuff". Because i think it's a thing i am sure is like that. WHY would people sell stuff that HE/The Clan/The Alliance does need and risk to empowering other Clans/Alliances that can potentially be enemies? I would take care FIRST of my own people, my own character, my own Clan and then sell out stuff we don't need anymore..
First off, there is no concrete definition of P2W. Since people can not agree on the meaning of P2W, it is best left to an individual to decide what that definition should be. Second, just because you and your wife are "veterans" of the genre, doesn't mean that you have the power to tell people how they should feel about a games monetization. I personally see P2W as a spectrum that is based on the game's primary gameplay loops and how much real world currency impacts two players with the same time investment, item drops, classes etc. with one spending money and the other spending none at all. Another thing to consider is that a market that has a currency that is purchasable from the cash shop puts a real money price tag on everything you do. Why grind the same dungeons and mobs for countless hours when the item you seek is card swipe away? What I think would make the market better is leaving BiS gear bind-on-equip and only obtainable in dungeons or difficult end-game activites. This would atleast allow players to catch up to end game (as much as I hate the idea), but leave the achievement and power that skilled and invested players can strive for.
@@Broku-vv2rq And you are another one that failed, with all this wall of text, to understand that the market HAVE NOTHING TO SELL if the players doesn't put items in the market. THE. COMPANY. SELL. NOTHING. TO. THE. PLAYERS. THE. COMPANY. DOESN'T. SPAWN. ITEMS. IN. THE. MARKET. Now, if you still insist on the P2W bullshit, keep going on, BUT if you NEVER played in the dark era of the mmorpgs in the 90s like we and many million of other people did, you can't really judge what P2W is in his TRUE form.
@@BryanTheFurySo what? THE. COMPANY. PROVIDES. THE. CURRENCY. TO ACQUIRE. THE. ITEMS (see, I can be a condescending asshat too). How does that make it any better? The issue is being able to use real world currency to acquire in game items whether that be from another player or the cash shop. If Money = Power then in my opinion you are introducing elements of P2W, and most MMO players probably agree. Also, stop with your MMO boomer "me and few others know the true evil of P2W" gatekeeping. You didn't see P2W in its "TRUE" form, you saw it in its WORST form and you do consumers a huge disservice by allowing game developers/publishers to move the goal post on what predatory monetization practices are acceptable. Consumers individually have the right to judge anything they purchase and consume and you have no right to say otherwise.
@@Broku-vv2rq You just want to see the evil when there isn't trying to win an argument that you can't because there is nothing to win, it's based on facts.. But let's roll down your mindset...now, why doesn't you create a mmorpg yourself and make it fully F2P with no INCOME for you and no monetization? How does that sounds? You don't like how it is now? Well maybe you wish to change and switch it back with items that you can buy ONLY in the shop with INCREASED o UNIQUE stats like it was in the past.. How does that sounds? The ignorance that you and a lot of people shows about how a management works with real money involved is absurd. Within the two sides of the coin, one with real P2W elements that we saw, and this one with an irrilevant monetization that lead to some quality of life services that allow the game to go forward (because work need money and that money have to come from somewhere) without giving out really nothing to the players to feel cheated, well excuse me but i do like WAY MORE this actual style.
@@BryanTheFury I am going to do this point by point to address everything you said. 1. There is no facts here, this is all opinion. 2. Your question, "why doesn't you create a mmorpg yourself and make it fully F2P with no INCOME for you and no monetization?" is easily answered by the fact that f2p MMOs are designed to be f2p to create low entry and allow predatory monetization (if you knew MMO monetization practices you would know that) that is ultimately very lucrative, especially in asian markets. 3. I can't think of any mainstream MMOs that allow you to buy items with increased unique stats in the cash shop and I have played them all. 4. You act like their is only two types of MMO monetization, when in reality there is many that in my opinion are better such as classic WoW and FF14 (Retail WoW allows you to buy tokens, but the gear you can buy on the auction house is not BiS). If you think I want to just see evil when there isn't any, then I will say that you are too blind to see the evil in front of you.
Thank you for this video, I am a big fan. But I believe that after playing the game for over a month and following streamers and guides and a fairly vet in other MMOs. This "pay to progress" is very misleading. The amount of advantage on gets by progressing faster has a massive snowball effect. Which translates to advantage in hourly events ranking , Conflict " by easily one shoting others" many times 1 guy just dominates a group of 5-6 casual players, and to succeed as free to play you have to jump over the +9 or only purple requirements put by others.
Dude is afraid to say the game is pay to win. Being able to buy a BiS item from lv 1 isn't pay to win lmao. The game is p2w but still i'm gonna play it because it's not as bad as some other games.
Np,on na and eu when it comes out,f2p players dont put anything at all on the market place ,just sell it to npc for silver and it wont be p2w for sure 😅
I just bought a BiS item as f2p. Easy to gear up in this game compared to other korean MMOs…. which could be a reason why many of us aren’t bothered too much about the p2w/progress. Plus, it’s just so much fun to play and i am glad to enjoy an mmo again. Been a while lmao
This is one of those game that i really hope that they just go buy2play route like gw2. Its really good. But man i still can shake the feeling that this game is whale paradise
Name of the game is sell stuff you dont plan on using. As a F2P if you stick to one playstyle and build gearing is possible in a F2P pov as long as you sell all you don't need in your build. The P2W market comes in when you plan on making other builds because if you grind that good luck lol. Might be the longest grind you'll ever have
You should contact force gaming and asmongold. They should know the truth of TnL ecosystem. It is ecosystem between players. It is very very different from paying to server type p2w. Great video!!!
So we can say it the pay to progres faster game, kind of like how bdo is called pay for convinience game (which also just mean pay to progress faster) I play BDO and I don't mind about spender and whaler progress faster than F2P because it's free game after all. But I also think that people who call this game P2W are also right especially Throne and Liberty which much more P2W than BDO (in BDO you can't directly use money to buy in game currency while in TL you can)
In BDO you can also grind without limits, while in TL grinding is pointless (drop rates are abysmal) so you can't even catch up to whales by grinding a lot. If they fix that TL may be fine. Right now you do contracts, 3 dunegons and wait for events, you can grind for solant but you cant rly grind lucent.
Well TNL is free and BDO you have to buy the game so is not free, also you have to buy old book every 15 days or 30 days wich is 30$ monthly plus you must have to buy a tent wich is 60$ you need to lvl up your fairy wich cost a lot of money also your pets, you have to buy outfit because bdo armors are so ugly that you have to buy outfit. You have to buy chars slots, skills load out, upgrade load out, you start with low char weight and to grind you have to buy weight all those stuff are expensive cuz 10$ only give you 1k, crone stones and so much much much much much BDO is on the list of the most p2w mmo, and I have to stop, cuz if I go to the market and you wanna sell something and get those big ass tax off you have to buy old moon, value pack, you also need inventory slots it’s a must battle pass, and season pass, and so much more let me just stop, in TNL you can buy all market items by just playing the game, and also buy in special shop by just playing the game unlike bdo you have to swipe.
Thanks for your further information, in the end both game are P2W with extra step. As other commenter said, in BDO you can also buy BIS weapon eventually after you grind long enough (who knows how long lol) the same thing with TL. But spender can progress much much faster if you pay in both game and for TL you can just buy lument with real money unlike BDO but those doesn't matter anyway because both game are truly P2W no matter how the devs hide it
@@wildannurm3739 I have sell 20k lucent in TL by just playing the game for free lolz and I can buy the same thing as people do with real Money. Trust me TL look really P2W but when you put your hands on TL and you know how to play the game is not p2W. Cuz I don’t have to spent money every week or month unlike bdo. I been playing TL since launch day and I haven’t spent one single dollar and I have purple armor weapons plus 9 and 8 and blues +9 for free
Ugh, stop making up terms. “Pay to Progress” … “Pay for Convenience” …. Just stop! All of that stuff IS Pay to WIN because a real money player can literally buy an advantage that F2P players must spend time to unlock in game. The extent of the advantage (large or small) is irrelevant. It can still be purchased with real money and, therefore, fits with the traditional definition of P2W. IMO, it would be better if people just accept that, YES, TL is P2W. Don’t deny it or try to sugar coat it. Instead, focus on how the game is fun for F2P players and push content providing tips for F2P players on how to develop their characters as F2P … which I think you do. On a side note to the devs, the aspect they MUST keep in mind if they wish to retain F2P players is that progression via playing the game MUST REMAIN FUN. As soon as progression feels like a grindy chore that people try to avoid by paying money, F2P players will bail just as what happened in Lost Ark. Spending 5 hours grinding out resources to dump on a single, impossible RNG roll of the dice in order to level up a single piece of gear quickly deflates player motivation
That whole take about "pay to progress" would be fine if you could actually grind to progress as well but you can't. After you are done with 3 dungeons and 10 contracts all that is left are events every few hours. You can't progress even if you were to play 18h a day because you are capped by daily limits. You can grind for sollant but you can't buy traits or skillbooks with that and drop rates for gear are so low that you may spend 5h on a spot and get noting. In BDO you can pay to progress as well but you also can grind to progress without any limits.
14:12 "None of this money goes to NC Soft / Amazon". I don't want to be rude, but your logic is kinda off. How does most of the Lucent get into the Market? It's people literally buying it from NC Soft / Amazon. The possibility of swiping for Lucent will let prices rise and people relying on the small amounts you get in the game will be unable to buy anything valuable very soon. Since this game has PvPvE Dungeons where your gear matters, it is literally the definition of "Pay to Win". You can pay to be better versus other players who have to participate in PvP even if they want to PvE only. You said that you can't kill those "Tanks", and I doubt that you can simply "run past and ignore them". The game is developed to force situations between players where gear matters. Lost Ark in comparison has different areas of how bad the "P2W" is: Arena PvP - no gear stats - no P2W Open World PvP - with gear stats - P2W PvE - Pay to Progress (since there is no "winning" if two players don't engage each other, but go into PvE content) I didn't play T&L, and I will try it when it releases in the west, but from what I have seen so far, it is pretty much my definition of P2W and I won't participate in that loop for a long time. I prefer even playing fields when it comes to PvP. I hope they will change the monetization system, but I doubt it. Lost Ark has similar systems, and they didn't change them alot for the western market.
All lucent in the market goes to other players, is what I meant, also you can make lucent without swiping, so its not a p2w game, I've made over 18k lucent as F2P player. Thanks!
@@mimicislivettv "All lucent in the market goes to other players" - Wrong. I can see 20% Tax Rate in the Marketplace in your Video. This Lucent is GONE and new Lucent needs to be purchased for REAL MONEY from Spenders / Whales. It's called "money sink" and all MMOs use it to get currency out of the game. The amount of "free Lucent" is miniscule compared to the amount a Whale can instantly purchase, as this is the case the prices will rise and F2P players won't be able to afford anything in the Marketplace EXCEPT they are extremely lucky with their drops. It is P2W since you can BUY (PvP) power with REAL money. It doesn't matter if a F2P player can technically reach full BiS gear if it takes him 1 year of grinding compared to instant purchases. When the western release happens, who do you think will dominate PvP and PvPvE Dungeons? You want to make a bet? I bet 1000€ that all the Top Guilds and Players are 100% Whales.
Actually, the lucent that is taxed, goes to the castle, which we are fighting for next weekend, our alliance will split the lucent in the castle right now is 2.6 million... I appreciate the comment!
@@mimicislivettv So all the Lucent which Whales buy and Players farm will stay in the game forever? Happy Inflation! Prices will be in the millions very soon then. If there is no "money sink" for Lucent the game is doomed.
A portion of it gets destroyed kind of like when a new crypto currency comes out, they burn most the supply to increase value, its sort of like that in this game, you can swipe get lucent, use lucent to buy items from other players that farmed the items as no item is exclusively on the AH from devs, every time is either found or crafted by another player. A portion of the gold and lucent gets burned from all the transactions, the rest goes into the castle vault, which is fought over server wide, the guild which wins and claims the castle gets the proceeds (a portion) of them, and the cycle continues. I would say if you are not currently playing, to at least give it a chance before you make a decision on the game, its really fun to be honest, best MMO I have played since DoAC.
Drops are bound, however you can extract the trait and sell it, there are some items you can craft, and they have a chance to be sold to the market auction house, its a low chance but still possible.
Huh? How does needing to buy 50 or more items to make your gear OP instead of just one make TL not P2W? To me that actually makes the game even MORE P2W because you have to be an even bigger whale to dominate. Just stop with this made of “Pay to Progress” term. It makes your argument kind of cringe and naive
P2W is when you can buy BIS itens directly from the store. That market makes you buy items from other players, so even if you cash an ferrari on that game, you will always be weaker than the player selling the items.
Yep.. it's the thing i keep saying.. the market is stocked/restocked by the players. It's them that sell stuff, not the company. You can donate billions but if there is not a player that sell the item you need, you can just suck up lol
Your version of pay to progress is pay to win. Your comment below when someone said this is, just run past the whales and dont engage had me rolling. Guess you will not be pvp'ing as a f2p.
Its ironic how some people say the game is not p2w n then also acknowledges the existence of whales in the game. Game is p2w. Its not the definition of p2w, but the mindset of the player which determines whether pay2win affects the way u play the game. It may not affect a casual player but the opposite applies to a competitive player. The whole p2w vs p2grogress argument is just dumb. If its pay2progress it will be pay2win. It just may not bother u the same way it bothers someone else.
Appreciate the comment :)
12:25 The tanks that whale are OP, unkillable. -- I don't think it's P2W.
You have a strange definition of P2W then, if you can swipe and a F2P player can't kill you anymore but you can kill them easily. Then you literally PAID to WIN that fight.
You need to be top comment, because people seem to have their own definition on P2W, although its a fix term proven by this timestamp.
I say its not P2W, because you just run past them and don't engage lol, swipe 4k and still doesn't matter, how are you really winning? Thanks for the comment, although I do see your point of view!
Yes, different opinions on what P2W is, this is why I made this video to give you my point of view :) Thanks for the comment !
One of the problems in this game imo is, if you are low geared or have many blue skills or not in strong guild the game punishes you lot. You literally dont stand a chance in local events because of high geared people especially who uses xbow/longbow literally get in top 50 easily. Meanwhile, you put an effort for 20mins and be 101th-150th and get shitty loot. In short, if you are strong you will always get good lucent and continue to grow your gear, but if you are weak you mostly stay as it is. The game doesnt allow bad geared-blue skilled people to grow. Unless you pay lucent ofc. So they need to change the local events reward system. Not even need to mention world bosses, again strong geared people get the loot thx to the contribution system..
Thanks for the comment!
Thats interesting, ty for telling me this, ill rather play gw2, swtor and BDO than play this
They just announced they're changing the peace events
The definition of P2W has changed over the years. It used to be that the game sells cashshop exclusive advantages that cannot be farmed in game, the most hardcore P2W(in the 90s and early 2000s and quickly became obsolete) and hardly any game has it now or in the last 2 decades.
Later it evolved into the commonly used system where cashshops selling gear, upgrade crystals, dungeon tickets that you're heavily restricted on how much you can acquire through playing the game. F2P players can still utilize the cashshops through buying cashshop currencies from players using gold(either through RMT market or via cashshop monthly buff tokens) so they're not locked out of cashshop purchases. This is the highly debated P2W vs P2P.
In T&L, this system was just simply moved from the cashshop to the auctionhouse so the devs won't lose money to RMT. Rohan Online, a 2008 MMO, used a similar system and it is a widely known P2W game. The process of facilitating P2W changes but how everything operates stays the same, thats all.
Couple of things that should have been pointed out to solo players right off the bat. This is a group/guild based game. It helps your grind tremendously when your in the highest rated guild on a server and have all the time in the world to grind PvP, RAIDS or Dungeons which you can join daily. Not a big social person? Unless you drop cash you'll never be top tier. Also, until your fully kitted out in purples and part of a group Zerg, don't bother to PvP. You'll be wiped instantly. This game is probably the most gear based game I've played other than BDO, and it's funny in this last patch they added even more BDO like notifications to the game. I really don't care if Joe Blow got that upgrade he just spent $75 for Lucent on. Overall, it's a visually awesome game that you'll have fun with until the typical KR grind kicks in.
On a side note and my own personal opinion, Pay To Win and Pay To Progress are basically the same thing. What, you don't think the whale that dropped cash on new gear isn't going to use that new gear against you when you PvP or being top rated at events until you get to his level after a year of grinding 4 to 6 hours a day? These games are WHALE BASED, you can buy purple weapons, armor and accessories right off the bat in the market. They'll just keep dropping cash to buy lucents to keep buying traits and better purples to use them on.
I love the game. Just be aware that it does have many flaws. No one from the west has really spent any money on it because it hasn't been released globally yet. There's still a long road ahead of us.
You can't buy purple stuff "right off the bat" as everyone keep saying. It is a mistake that clearly shows that such people don't know the game.
The market is stocked and restocked BY THE PLAYERS.
If there is nothing to buy you can eve donate 1 million of real money, you'll have to wait people that will discard what they don't need anymore to buy it.
And for every transaction a whale does buying stuff, another one will gain such money..
Thanks for the comment mayne!
Thanks for this!
I've to disagree on this one.
You cant say that a game is " Pay 2 fast " or " Pay to progress " when you can buy a advantage that's gonna directly affect other players.
Theses things only work for PvE only games, not PvP games.
This is a PvP game, you're strongly underestimate whales & people that are wiling to swipe if they get bored of a thing at one point.
If i'm able to instant buy a item (any piece + traits to max gear it) I'm buying a direct advantage to other players, that's P2W.
You can't say that T&L is a game where you can just " avoid the whales " this is a mass pvp guild based game.
Being able to buy items / traits / sollant to max gear yourself in a month, where a F2P player will need a undefined amount of time, based on his luck, that's P2W.
Even if you can generate lucents with IG drops, you'll never be able to catch up.
Don't lie to yourself because you made 17k lucents in 1month & a half, this is less that what whales have swipe in 1 day after the purge to catch back...
This game is a great game, but its 100% Pay 2 Win, that's factual, whether you like it or not
Thanks for the comment!
what a troll :D did u even play KR version? U dont understand the "p2w" I made 10k lucents playing 2 hours a day in 1 month. I got full purple gear. +6 or more. and I didnt spend a single euro. So if u know what to do, ez ;) and Im able to pvp very well
Cool story, that doesn't change the fact that anyone can do what you farm in 1Month, in 1minute by swiping, making him gain a direct advantage on you.
Being able to pay to obtain a direct advantage on other player is P2w. Even more on a PvP game
Not being able to understand that point is pretty problematic.
@@sykysykyc4436
Cool story,
That doesn't change the fact that someone can do what you did in 1month (even if it was faster & more) in 1min by swiping, making him obtain a direct & instant advantage on you. Being able to pay to have a direct advantage on others make the game p2w, even more on a PvP game.
Not being able to understand that is really problematic.@@sykysykyc4436
Well said, brother!! Hope this video helps to stop people from ruining the game by saying it is all about P2W. But it is actually PAY TO PROGRESS!!😊 can't wait for NA
Well said!
Pay to progress, pay for convenience bro thats all pay to win lmao its defo pay to win, what matters is amazon's way
The game is NOT P2W. People just like to stick that word everywhere, especially younger generations that plays mmorpg, just because there is a shop.
I said that many times already and i might sound annoying but it's facts. People, those people especially, doest NOT know at all what P2W means. Not even slightly.
I do play mmorpgs since 1998. Both me and my wife are pretty veterans at this point of the real DARK AGE of the P2W mmorpgs, where you could literally obtain stuff in the shop that was obtainable ONLY with real money (and this just to quote the quicker to explain, because there was WAY MORE shit in those shops), we do really know what P2W is.
The Marinth stones are ofc an item you can get, like everything else (gear, traits, ecc...), but the main thing remains. and that is a fact: The market is NOT stocked by the dev team or the owner of the game.
Paying or not, it (the market) NEED to be supplied. And the supply comes from players. So it is not like.. if you make a donation and get Luciens you can buy right away... there must be stocks in that you can take.
Also, commonly speaking, the things you find there are "discarded stuff". Because i think it's a thing i am sure is like that. WHY would people sell stuff that HE/The Clan/The Alliance does need and risk to empowering other Clans/Alliances that can potentially be enemies? I would take care FIRST of my own people, my own character, my own Clan and then sell out stuff we don't need anymore..
First off, there is no concrete definition of P2W. Since people can not agree on the meaning of P2W, it is best left to an individual to decide what that definition should be. Second, just because you and your wife are "veterans" of the genre, doesn't mean that you have the power to tell people how they should feel about a games monetization. I personally see P2W as a spectrum that is based on the game's primary gameplay loops and how much real world currency impacts two players with the same time investment, item drops, classes etc. with one spending money and the other spending none at all. Another thing to consider is that a market that has a currency that is purchasable from the cash shop puts a real money price tag on everything you do. Why grind the same dungeons and mobs for countless hours when the item you seek is card swipe away? What I think would make the market better is leaving BiS gear bind-on-equip and only obtainable in dungeons or difficult end-game activites. This would atleast allow players to catch up to end game (as much as I hate the idea), but leave the achievement and power that skilled and invested players can strive for.
@@Broku-vv2rq And you are another one that failed, with all this wall of text, to understand that the market HAVE NOTHING TO SELL if the players doesn't put items in the market.
THE. COMPANY. SELL. NOTHING. TO. THE. PLAYERS.
THE. COMPANY. DOESN'T. SPAWN. ITEMS. IN. THE. MARKET.
Now, if you still insist on the P2W bullshit, keep going on, BUT if you NEVER played in the dark era of the mmorpgs in the 90s like we and many million of other people did, you can't really judge what P2W is in his TRUE form.
@@BryanTheFurySo what? THE. COMPANY. PROVIDES. THE. CURRENCY. TO ACQUIRE. THE. ITEMS (see, I can be a condescending asshat too). How does that make it any better? The issue is being able to use real world currency to acquire in game items whether that be from another player or the cash shop. If Money = Power then in my opinion you are introducing elements of P2W, and most MMO players probably agree. Also, stop with your MMO boomer "me and few others know the true evil of P2W" gatekeeping. You didn't see P2W in its "TRUE" form, you saw it in its WORST form and you do consumers a huge disservice by allowing game developers/publishers to move the goal post on what predatory monetization practices are acceptable. Consumers individually have the right to judge anything they purchase and consume and you have no right to say otherwise.
@@Broku-vv2rq You just want to see the evil when there isn't trying to win an argument that you can't because there is nothing to win, it's based on facts..
But let's roll down your mindset...now, why doesn't you create a mmorpg yourself and make it fully F2P with no INCOME for you and no monetization?
How does that sounds?
You don't like how it is now? Well maybe you wish to change and switch it back with items that you can buy ONLY in the shop with INCREASED o UNIQUE stats like it was in the past..
How does that sounds?
The ignorance that you and a lot of people shows about how a management works with real money involved is absurd.
Within the two sides of the coin, one with real P2W elements that we saw, and this one with an irrilevant monetization that lead to some quality of life services that allow the game to go forward (because work need money and that money have to come from somewhere) without giving out really nothing to the players to feel cheated, well excuse me but i do like WAY MORE this actual style.
@@BryanTheFury I am going to do this point by point to address everything you said.
1. There is no facts here, this is all opinion.
2. Your question, "why doesn't you create a mmorpg yourself and make it fully F2P with no INCOME for you and no monetization?" is easily answered by the fact that f2p MMOs are designed to be f2p to create low entry and allow predatory monetization (if you knew MMO monetization practices you would know that) that is ultimately very lucrative, especially in asian markets.
3. I can't think of any mainstream MMOs that allow you to buy items with increased unique stats in the cash shop and I have played them all.
4. You act like their is only two types of MMO monetization, when in reality there is many that in my opinion are better such as classic WoW and FF14 (Retail WoW allows you to buy tokens, but the gear you can buy on the auction house is not BiS).
If you think I want to just see evil when there isn't any, then I will say that you are too blind to see the evil in front of you.
Pay to progress is pay to win, the good thing in this game is for now game is not required GS score for content
Thank you for this video, I am a big fan. But I believe that after playing the game for over a month and following streamers and guides and a fairly vet in other MMOs. This "pay to progress" is very misleading. The amount of advantage on gets by progressing faster has a massive snowball effect. Which translates to advantage in hourly events ranking , Conflict " by easily one shoting others" many times 1 guy just dominates a group of 5-6 casual players, and to succeed as free to play you have to jump over the +9 or only purple requirements put by others.
Dude is afraid to say the game is pay to win. Being able to buy a BiS item from lv 1 isn't pay to win lmao. The game is p2w but still i'm gonna play it because it's not as bad as some other games.
I see it as pay to progress like I explained in the video, our definition of pay to win is probably different, thanks for the comment!
Np,on na and eu when it comes out,f2p players dont put anything at all on the market place ,just sell it to npc for silver and it wont be p2w for sure 😅
I just bought a BiS item as f2p. Easy to gear up in this game compared to other korean MMOs…. which could be a reason why many of us aren’t bothered too much about the p2w/progress. Plus, it’s just so much fun to play and i am glad to enjoy an mmo again. Been a while lmao
@@mimicislivettv pay to progress is like xp, mounts, fast travel. Buying BiS right at the start is pretty much p2w
@@mimicislivettvthats pay to win lol
Great video i been saying the same thing.
Thanks for watching!
This is one of those game that i really hope that they just go buy2play route like gw2. Its really good. But man i still can shake the feeling that this game is whale paradise
great video, hey Mimic, how do you farm growthstones except for contracts ?
That's all I do, is contracts :)
Name of the game is sell stuff you dont plan on using. As a F2P if you stick to one playstyle and build gearing is possible in a F2P pov as long as you sell all you don't need in your build.
The P2W market comes in when you plan on making other builds because if you grind that good luck lol. Might be the longest grind you'll ever have
You should contact force gaming and asmongold. They should know the truth of TnL ecosystem.
It is ecosystem between players.
It is very very different from paying to server type p2w.
Great video!!!
I don't know how I would contact them, any suggestions? Thanks for the comment :)
So we can say it the pay to progres faster game, kind of like how bdo is called pay for convinience game (which also just mean pay to progress faster) I play BDO and I don't mind about spender and whaler progress faster than F2P because it's free game after all. But I also think that people who call this game P2W are also right especially Throne and Liberty which much more P2W than BDO (in BDO you can't directly use money to buy in game currency while in TL you can)
In BDO you can also grind without limits, while in TL grinding is pointless (drop rates are abysmal) so you can't even catch up to whales by grinding a lot. If they fix that TL may be fine. Right now you do contracts, 3 dunegons and wait for events, you can grind for solant but you cant rly grind lucent.
Well TNL is free and BDO you have to buy the game so is not free, also you have to buy old book every 15 days or 30 days wich is 30$ monthly plus you must have to buy a tent wich is 60$ you need to lvl up your fairy wich cost a lot of money also your pets, you have to buy outfit because bdo armors are so ugly that you have to buy outfit. You have to buy chars slots, skills load out, upgrade load out, you start with low char weight and to grind you have to buy weight all those stuff are expensive cuz 10$ only give you 1k, crone stones and so much much much much much BDO is on the list of the most p2w mmo, and I have to stop, cuz if I go to the market and you wanna sell something and get those big ass tax off you have to buy old moon, value pack, you also need inventory slots it’s a must battle pass, and season pass, and so much more let me just stop, in TNL you can buy all market items by just playing the game, and also buy in special shop by just playing the game unlike bdo you have to swipe.
Thanks for your further information, in the end both game are P2W with extra step. As other commenter said, in BDO you can also buy BIS weapon eventually after you grind long enough (who knows how long lol) the same thing with TL. But spender can progress much much faster if you pay in both game and for TL you can just buy lument with real money unlike BDO but those doesn't matter anyway because both game are truly P2W no matter how the devs hide it
@@Yatsunagamingand also in BDO you don't need to swipe your card to get BIS weapon, you can also just grind it
@@wildannurm3739 I have sell 20k lucent in TL by just playing the game for free lolz and I can buy the same thing as people do with real Money. Trust me TL look really P2W but when you put your hands on TL and you know how to play the game is not p2W. Cuz I don’t have to spent money every week or month unlike bdo. I been playing TL since launch day and I haven’t spent one single dollar and I have purple armor weapons plus 9 and 8 and blues +9 for free
Pay to progress...i understand you love the game, i do too, im playing it, its great, but dont lie, the game is darn pay to win.
Guys does this game have life skilling or something? What system does it have?
No life skilling thus far.
Great video!is it possible to make a video sometime and explain which are the 3 best traits for each part of armor and jewel as well? Ty in advance!!
Noted! - check my playlist I already made this :)
Very informative, thank you. Is there any kind of advantage to play two characters on the same server ?
Not that I know of
Ugh, stop making up terms. “Pay to Progress” … “Pay for Convenience” …. Just stop! All of that stuff IS Pay to WIN because a real money player can literally buy an advantage that F2P players must spend time to unlock in game. The extent of the advantage (large or small) is irrelevant. It can still be purchased with real money and, therefore, fits with the traditional definition of P2W.
IMO, it would be better if people just accept that, YES, TL is P2W. Don’t deny it or try to sugar coat it. Instead, focus on how the game is fun for F2P players and push content providing tips for F2P players on how to develop their characters as F2P … which I think you do.
On a side note to the devs, the aspect they MUST keep in mind if they wish to retain F2P players is that progression via playing the game MUST REMAIN FUN. As soon as progression feels like a grindy chore that people try to avoid by paying money, F2P players will bail just as what happened in Lost Ark. Spending 5 hours grinding out resources to dump on a single, impossible RNG roll of the dice in order to level up a single piece of gear quickly deflates player motivation
Thanks for the comment!
That whole take about "pay to progress" would be fine if you could actually grind to progress as well but you can't. After you are done with 3 dungeons and 10 contracts all that is left are events every few hours. You can't progress even if you were to play 18h a day because you are capped by daily limits. You can grind for sollant but you can't buy traits or skillbooks with that and drop rates for gear are so low that you may spend 5h on a spot and get noting. In BDO you can pay to progress as well but you also can grind to progress without any limits.
14:12
"None of this money goes to NC Soft / Amazon". I don't want to be rude, but your logic is kinda off.
How does most of the Lucent get into the Market? It's people literally buying it from NC Soft / Amazon. The possibility of swiping for Lucent will let prices rise and people relying on the small amounts you get in the game will be unable to buy anything valuable very soon.
Since this game has PvPvE Dungeons where your gear matters, it is literally the definition of "Pay to Win". You can pay to be better versus other players who have to participate in PvP even if they want to PvE only. You said that you can't kill those "Tanks", and I doubt that you can simply "run past and ignore them". The game is developed to force situations between players where gear matters.
Lost Ark in comparison has different areas of how bad the "P2W" is:
Arena PvP - no gear stats - no P2W
Open World PvP - with gear stats - P2W
PvE - Pay to Progress (since there is no "winning" if two players don't engage each other, but go into PvE content)
I didn't play T&L, and I will try it when it releases in the west, but from what I have seen so far, it is pretty much my definition of P2W and I won't participate in that loop for a long time. I prefer even playing fields when it comes to PvP. I hope they will change the monetization system, but I doubt it. Lost Ark has similar systems, and they didn't change them alot for the western market.
All lucent in the market goes to other players, is what I meant, also you can make lucent without swiping, so its not a p2w game, I've made over 18k lucent as F2P player. Thanks!
@@mimicislivettv "All lucent in the market goes to other players" - Wrong. I can see 20% Tax Rate in the Marketplace in your Video. This Lucent is GONE and new Lucent needs to be purchased for REAL MONEY from Spenders / Whales. It's called "money sink" and all MMOs use it to get currency out of the game. The amount of "free Lucent" is miniscule compared to the amount a Whale can instantly purchase, as this is the case the prices will rise and F2P players won't be able to afford anything in the Marketplace EXCEPT they are extremely lucky with their drops.
It is P2W since you can BUY (PvP) power with REAL money. It doesn't matter if a F2P player can technically reach full BiS gear if it takes him 1 year of grinding compared to instant purchases.
When the western release happens, who do you think will dominate PvP and PvPvE Dungeons? You want to make a bet? I bet 1000€ that all the Top Guilds and Players are 100% Whales.
Actually, the lucent that is taxed, goes to the castle, which we are fighting for next weekend, our alliance will split the lucent in the castle right now is 2.6 million... I appreciate the comment!
@@mimicislivettv So all the Lucent which Whales buy and Players farm will stay in the game forever? Happy Inflation! Prices will be in the millions very soon then.
If there is no "money sink" for Lucent the game is doomed.
A portion of it gets destroyed kind of like when a new crypto currency comes out, they burn most the supply to increase value, its sort of like that in this game, you can swipe get lucent, use lucent to buy items from other players that farmed the items as no item is exclusively on the AH from devs, every time is either found or crafted by another player. A portion of the gold and lucent gets burned from all the transactions, the rest goes into the castle vault, which is fought over server wide, the guild which wins and claims the castle gets the proceeds (a portion) of them, and the cycle continues. I would say if you are not currently playing, to at least give it a chance before you make a decision on the game, its really fun to be honest, best MMO I have played since DoAC.
Are loot drops bound or can you trade them to other players or you need to put on marketplace?
Drops are bound, however you can extract the trait and sell it, there are some items you can craft, and they have a chance to be sold to the market auction house, its a low chance but still possible.
Very well said.
Thank you!
Like & sub for you bro! I'm interesting in that game from PS5 pov, so great to see updates regarding the game
Thanks for the sub!
Huh? How does needing to buy 50 or more items to make your gear OP instead of just one make TL not P2W? To me that actually makes the game even MORE P2W because you have to be an even bigger whale to dominate. Just stop with this made of “Pay to Progress” term. It makes your argument kind of cringe and naive
Thanks for the comment, this is why I made this video because different people have different definition of what P2W actually is!
i need pay to progress system becos i dont have time!
How do I play this game on the KR servers if I'm not Korean or from there?
use google
bots are going to be a massive problem
P2W is when you can buy BIS itens directly from the store.
That market makes you buy items from other players, so even if you cash an ferrari on that game, you will always be weaker than the player selling the items.
Agreed!
Yep.. it's the thing i keep saying.. the market is stocked/restocked by the players. It's them that sell stuff, not the company. You can donate billions but if there is not a player that sell the item you need, you can just suck up lol
thx for all the info
Happy to help!
Your version of pay to progress is pay to win. Your comment below when someone said this is, just run past the whales and dont engage had me rolling. Guess you will not be pvp'ing as a f2p.
I pvp just fine! Thanks for the comment.
What about paying a subscription amount. $15 a month.
The battle pass is 100% worth it!
its defiantly P2W
People will say it's p2w without even playing the game, asmonclown desease, don't mind them
Facts I am just here sippin my Coffee enjoying the show!