Starts at 2:54! Did you know that RJ changed his mind on who killed Asmodean? And, if you couldn't choose Taim, Demandred, or Graendal, who do you think is the best suspect as the killer?
Why not Verin, she's practically the Keyser Soze of the whole series; always unexpected, diabolical string puller, blind sides the Dark Ajah and presumably a Forsaken in the process so there's no reason she couldn't have figured out a way to nail Asmodean (while collecting Spores/molds/and fungus like Egon from the Ghostbusters). Telling you man, after that one book where Verin had her Swan Song I just decided that when in doubt, Verin was probably the reason, doesn't even have to make sense man that woman could have taken out the Dark One while he wasn't looking while taking notes in the corner of a room.
I can't be sure, but I think Asmodean was killed by Aldieb and Mandarb.The plan had been honed since Rhuidean. The order came directly from Bela. PS. The post office today brought a nice surprise(2 WOT t-shirts)🤩
But Bela (The Creator) doesn't interfere directly even to order things be done or not. It's obvious that Aldieb and Mandarb were acting on their own and sought to blame Bela if they were discovered.
I think that Jordan ran out of time and never got to finish what he had in mind for who killed Asmodean, and in the end, it didn't matter. My opinion is that it was Slayer. After being wounded by Perrin, the payment Slayer received for killing Asmodean was healing and his life. Slayer would have spent time stalking such a dangerous foe, and probably found out about the block. Also, Asmodean was never good in the dream world. Therefore, all slayer would have to do was appear before Asmodean, surprise him, and then pull him into the world of dreams. Slayer would then have the advantage. Another good name for Slayer is death. With Slayer as the actual weapon that killed Asmodean, any of the Forsaken could have sent him to do it. Ultimately, the Forsaken that sent Slayer would be held responsible for Asmodean's death, not the type of weapon used to kill Asmodean. The time spent trying to stalk and kill Asmodean could be a good explanation for Slayer's long absence.
I agree, and if my love and focus and comments like, "Brandon, I'm going to make A Memory of Light all about Asmodean," had anything to do with it, though I've been told it didn't, then I apologize. :)
Chriiiiiiiiiis!!!! Good to see you fighting the good fight!! You laid out some pretty convincing arguments, but surprisingly the Innkeeper turned me onto Team Lanfear on this one!
You misunderstood her question about “Is Lanfear petty enough to kill Asmodean?” Yes, of course. But you didn’t hear her follow up. “If so, would she use her kill wish on Asmodean as opposed to Aviendah?” The answer is of course not. First, she can kill Asmodean without needing a aelfinn wish to do it. Second, Aviendah is much more dangerous than Asmodean. Third, she hates Aviendah and know Asmodean is just a doomed pitiful wretch. Bella did it.
I've always thought Wot was a murder mystery in disguise. Doesn't the name Telamon contain a concealed Sherlock Holmes reference, and wasn't Seanchan named for Charlie Chan's brother Sean?
I think Jordan had it right the first time Taim definitely should have been Demandred and would have been most likely forsaken to have killed him. Moridin could have done it after Demandred. Slayer could have worked, but it would have been on orders of either Demandred or Moridin. Shaidar Huran is also a very strong candidate.... The argument against is that he tended to let many things play out. That and that no one of the forsaken recognized him upon first meeting. Not moraine. Inconsistent with the letter and her character. Not Lanfear... Even if she actually had a realistic motive, it would not be a priority for her. Why not wish to kill Rand or Avienda?
Spoiler warning for up to book 11! There is a problem the size of callandor with Lews Therrin killing Asmodean. Whenever Lews Therrin takes control like we see at dumais wells or the trolloc attack in knife of dreams. Rand remembers it all. That’s why he can remember how to weave death gates. He doesn’t go into a black out state, he is just an observer to his own body and what Lews is doing. Therefor if Lews killed Asmodean, then Rand would have remembered.
All of these theories assume that the killer was there specifically to kill Asmo. It reads to me more like Asmo opens a door and sees someone who didn't want to be seen, and is killed to keep their cover. If you go to a palace to assassinate someone, waiting in a random hallway in the hope he comes looking for a pantry seems a poor methodology. For this reason, Taimandred makes sense to me. Bashere has just told Rand he's sure Taim is in Andor then, early in LOC, Taim presents himself. I think Demandred was there, ready to present himself as Taim, and Asmodean saw him when he opened the door and Demandred knew he couldn't play his Taim card with Asmo at Rand's side... ergo: "One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him him."
Rand would have felt his saidin energy, whether or not Taim had both his channelling and weaving both cloaked, since any weaving being performed while cloaked would be sensed. Even when I read FoH, I knew it was Graendal, because of Asmodean knowing where she was. She always made sure her location would be secure, which is why she hid at Natrin where she did. I also really like one of the reasons Taim and Demandred were separated was because of Cadsuaine and her ter angreal disrupting channelling by either source. Particularly when she mentions capturing Taim.
Rand was on the balcony , Aviendha was in front of the fountain , Asmodean was nearby If saidin or saidar was used they both would've picked up on it Therefore Moridin(using Ishamael's face so As recognizes him) killed Asmodean since he makes his debut in the next book ( I think )
on Original reads i considered Moridon using TP but how was he recognised - slayer was everywhere for me so was a possibility - Gholam came later re Harid fel and maybe Balthames? but was retrospectively considered but i decided RAFO for sanity alone
@@TheDustyWheel thanks for reply -Wotoholic australian - if i can ask - it's irrelevant but always bugged me who put the gray man in sheriams bed - do the notes say anything - did i miss a intuitive clue - Help and keep having linda/tevez/todd on notes
I still hope for the show that Asmodean and Thom are merged into one and instead of killing Asmodean, he burns him self out fighting off the person trying to kill him. Makes for nice sparks between Moraine and Thom. Aswell as it gives more reason to Rand actually accepting him as a teacher. Even further, it makes more sense to have Moraine and Thom being a couple in the end too, because they actually spent time together in Tear and the Waste.
@@ChristmasLore Thom Never really does anything when he is with mat, except sitting in a tavern and listening to rumors, that’s stuff the thief catchers can do alone, julin or what his name was. I rather have Thom play a more major role than just waiting for damsel in distress rescue late in the series and sitting silently in taverns the rest of the time.
17:43 it's possible that this actually is correct, the glossary just says graendeal is responsible for asmodean's death, and she was partially responsible for finding the stasis-box with the gholam in it
Aviendha states that the day Asmodean disappeared, there was huge channelling that the Wise Ones sensed, and physical evidence of a gateway at the pantries.
The fact he could change killers, seems to indicate that there was not enough info in the books to figure it out. Doesn't reflect too well on the writer when you setup a mystery that has no real answer.
luckily the show won't have a glossary and will need to answer the question so maybe they will actually do a bit of a murder mystery with it since I've always hated the Graendal answer
One thing that talks against the Gholam that you didn't bring up was that RJ said we could work it out by the end of book 5. The Gholam was not known by the reader until later books. We could go back afterwards and tribute kills to the Gholam. Example Barthanes.
I did bring that up: we weren't following Jordan's rules, because he didn't either. :) That's the premise. Jordan changed his mind after the end of Book 5, so that quote doesn't hold up any longer. So, suspects didn't have to meet that requirement to be a good suspect.
Why would Moiraine want to kill Asmodean after she went through the doorway. She knew what was going to happen to her so why would she not kill him before that? Especially if she is supposed to be so risk averse according to this theory. Also seems kinda stupid that she would waste her wish on this.
Starts at 2:54! Did you know that RJ changed his mind on who killed Asmodean? And, if you couldn't choose Taim, Demandred, or Graendal, who do you think is the best suspect as the killer?
Why not Verin, she's practically the Keyser Soze of the whole series; always unexpected, diabolical string puller, blind sides the Dark Ajah and presumably a Forsaken in the process so there's no reason she couldn't have figured out a way to nail Asmodean (while collecting Spores/molds/and fungus like Egon from the Ghostbusters). Telling you man, after that one book where Verin had her Swan Song I just decided that when in doubt, Verin was probably the reason, doesn't even have to make sense man that woman could have taken out the Dark One while he wasn't looking while taking notes in the corner of a room.
I can't be sure, but I think Asmodean was killed by Aldieb and Mandarb.The plan had been honed since Rhuidean. The order came directly from Bela.
PS. The post office today brought a nice surprise(2 WOT t-shirts)🤩
But Bela (The Creator) doesn't interfere directly even to order things be done or not. It's obvious that Aldieb and Mandarb were acting on their own and sought to blame Bela if they were discovered.
Fifteen years ago, saying Taimandred killed Asmodean was the WoT equivalent of being a flat earther.
Lol. So true. Lol.
I think that Jordan ran out of time and never got to finish what he had in mind for who killed Asmodean, and in the end, it didn't matter. My opinion is that it was Slayer. After being wounded by Perrin, the payment Slayer received for killing Asmodean was healing and his life. Slayer would have spent time stalking such a dangerous foe, and probably found out about the block. Also, Asmodean was never good in the dream world. Therefore, all slayer would have to do was appear before Asmodean, surprise him, and then pull him into the world of dreams. Slayer would then have the advantage. Another good name for Slayer is death. With Slayer as the actual weapon that killed Asmodean, any of the Forsaken could have sent him to do it. Ultimately, the Forsaken that sent Slayer would be held responsible for Asmodean's death, not the type of weapon used to kill Asmodean. The time spent trying to stalk and kill Asmodean could be a good explanation for Slayer's long absence.
Revealing the killer in a glossary was one of the biggest letdowns and most baffling decisions from this series.
I agree, and if my love and focus and comments like, "Brandon, I'm going to make A Memory of Light all about Asmodean," had anything to do with it, though I've been told it didn't, then I apologize. :)
Avi was ALWAYS my favorite suspect. I swear I thought it was her for the longest.
I love the idea, and always will, that the Wise Ones knew what was going on, tasked her, and she did it.
Chriiiiiiiiiis!!!! Good to see you fighting the good fight!! You laid out some pretty convincing arguments, but surprisingly the Innkeeper turned me onto Team Lanfear on this one!
You misunderstood her question about “Is Lanfear petty enough to kill Asmodean?” Yes, of course. But you didn’t hear her follow up. “If so, would she use her kill wish on Asmodean as opposed to Aviendah?” The answer is of course not. First, she can kill Asmodean without needing a aelfinn wish to do it. Second, Aviendah is much more dangerous than Asmodean. Third, she hates Aviendah and know Asmodean is just a doomed pitiful wretch.
Bella did it.
I've always thought Wot was a murder mystery in disguise. Doesn't the name Telamon contain a concealed Sherlock Holmes reference, and wasn't Seanchan named for Charlie Chan's brother Sean?
I think Jordan had it right the first time Taim definitely should have been Demandred and would have been most likely forsaken to have killed him. Moridin could have done it after Demandred. Slayer could have worked, but it would have been on orders of either Demandred or Moridin. Shaidar Huran is also a very strong candidate.... The argument against is that he tended to let many things play out. That and that no one of the forsaken recognized him upon first meeting.
Not moraine. Inconsistent with the letter and her character.
Not Lanfear... Even if she actually had a realistic motive, it would not be a priority for her. Why not wish to kill Rand or Avienda?
Awesome episode, top tier discussion👏🏻
Spoiler warning for up to book 11!
There is a problem the size of callandor with Lews Therrin killing Asmodean. Whenever Lews Therrin takes control like we see at dumais wells or the trolloc attack in knife of dreams. Rand remembers it all. That’s why he can remember how to weave death gates. He doesn’t go into a black out state, he is just an observer to his own body and what Lews is doing. Therefor if Lews killed Asmodean, then Rand would have remembered.
All of these theories assume that the killer was there specifically to kill Asmo. It reads to me more like Asmo opens a door and sees someone who didn't want to be seen, and is killed to keep their cover. If you go to a palace to assassinate someone, waiting in a random hallway in the hope he comes looking for a pantry seems a poor methodology.
For this reason, Taimandred makes sense to me. Bashere has just told Rand he's sure Taim is in Andor then, early in LOC, Taim presents himself. I think Demandred was there, ready to present himself as Taim, and Asmodean saw him when he opened the door and Demandred knew he couldn't play his Taim card with Asmo at Rand's side... ergo:
"One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him him."
Rand would have felt his saidin energy, whether or not Taim had both his channelling and weaving both cloaked, since any weaving being performed while cloaked would be sensed.
Even when I read FoH, I knew it was Graendal, because of Asmodean knowing where she was.
She always made sure her location would be secure, which is why she hid at Natrin where she did. I also really like one of the reasons Taim and Demandred were separated was because of Cadsuaine and her ter angreal disrupting channelling by either source.
Particularly when she mentions capturing Taim.
Rand was on the balcony , Aviendha was in front of the fountain , Asmodean was nearby
If saidin or saidar was used they both would've picked up on it
Therefore Moridin(using Ishamael's face so As recognizes him) killed Asmodean since he makes his debut in the next book ( I think )
In my heart it will always be Demandred
on Original reads i considered Moridon using TP but how was he recognised - slayer was everywhere for me so was a possibility - Gholam came later re Harid fel and maybe Balthames? but was retrospectively considered but i decided RAFO for sanity alone
I like the Gholam for the answer. It makes sense to have the Gholam take out a Forsaken.
@@TheDustyWheel thanks for reply -Wotoholic australian - if i can ask - it's irrelevant but always bugged me who put the gray man in sheriams bed - do the notes say anything - did i miss a intuitive clue - Help and keep having linda/tevez/todd on notes
I always thought it was a forsaken that killed Asmodean. I just couldn't figure out who. Of course I know now.
Can we get an episode on how the show will present the prophecies of the dragon!!!??
I still hope for the show that Asmodean and Thom are merged into one and instead of killing Asmodean, he burns him self out fighting off the person trying to kill him. Makes for nice sparks between Moraine and Thom. Aswell as it gives more reason to Rand actually accepting him as a teacher. Even further, it makes more sense to have Moraine and Thom being a couple in the end too, because they actually spent time together in Tear and the Waste.
That's pretty good actually Id be down for that.
@@ChristmasLore Thom Never really does anything when he is with mat, except sitting in a tavern and listening to rumors, that’s stuff the thief catchers can do alone, julin or what his name was. I rather have Thom play a more major role than just waiting for damsel in distress rescue late in the series and sitting silently in taverns the rest of the time.
17:43 it's possible that this actually is correct, the glossary just says graendeal is responsible for asmodean's death, and she was partially responsible for finding the stasis-box with the gholam in it
Aviendha states that the day Asmodean disappeared, there was huge channelling that the Wise Ones sensed, and physical evidence of a gateway at the pantries.
The fact he could change killers, seems to indicate that there was not enough info in the books to figure it out. Doesn't reflect too well on the writer when you setup a mystery that has no real answer.
"doesnt reflect well on the writer when you setup a mystery that has no real answer" lmao, and in reference to robert jordan nonetheless? puh-leese.
luckily the show won't have a glossary and will need to answer the question so maybe they will actually do a bit of a murder mystery with it since I've always hated the Graendal answer
One thing that talks against the Gholam that you didn't bring up was that RJ said we could work it out by the end of book 5. The Gholam was not known by the reader until later books. We could go back afterwards and tribute kills to the Gholam. Example Barthanes.
I did bring that up: we weren't following Jordan's rules, because he didn't either. :) That's the premise. Jordan changed his mind after the end of Book 5, so that quote doesn't hold up any longer. So, suspects didn't have to meet that requirement to be a good suspect.
@@TheDustyWheel That's true
What are the wishes you're referencing here?
I can't remember which is which, but one of the Finns answer 3 questions, the other grant 3 wishes.
Aviendha would be my second choice.
i like the idea Graendal did it.l so he would out her. She goes around killing Forsaken. Whats not to like?
Graendal or Demandred.
Why would Moiraine want to kill Asmodean after she went through the doorway. She knew what was going to happen to her so why would she not kill him before that? Especially if she is supposed to be so risk averse according to this theory. Also seems kinda stupid that she would waste her wish on this.
I like her for this, with future knowledge...if not for what she left for Rand letting him know she knew.
bela the horse killed asmodean ? lol
Unnamed maiden of the spear dark friend.