One of the things I enjoy some authors do in their narratives is allow for the reader's interpretation of the words on the page. Another great video to this series, gents. I think not only readers but writers can benefit from these insightful videos.
I finally remember the movie that reminds me of AP. It's Finding Forrester, a wise old man with much to teach. I know Sean Connery is scottish and AP is Irish but the same depth of sagacity is found in both. Idk if both can be ascribed the same level of curmudgeony, thank you anyways for the lessons and don't stop.
Is every literature program all over the world required by some secret agreement to use A Rose for Emily in their teaching materials, or is it just a ridiculously convenient tool for demonstrating these particular ideas? It was one of the first stories we read in literary analysis class last fall :D
Faulkner and Hemmingway come up a lot because of how they impacted writing in the US and subsequently 'the Western Canon'. Plus it is a nice illustration of plural first person or collective first person narration. 🤣🤣 A related reason is that it is more economical for students to teach from a sampler, and many of them will include a lot of the same stories.
Thank you so much for beginning this series with Philip. I've waited for a good brain day to begin watching, and I'm enjoying it already. Having this information together, rather than sprinkled throughout other videos, will make it easier for me to come back to as my brain attempts to fade it from memory. Cheers A.P. & Philip.
I’ve been looking for a series like this for a while: I never got this kind of thing in school (STEM guy), so thank you! It has been very enlightening so far. However, I’m afraid i’m not quite grasping the distinction between the technical definitions of narrative and story. In my head what I’ve got is that Narrative is “event happens therefore event happens therefore event happens” and some events can be more load-bearing than other others for whether or not the causality is preserved. Story is related to a series of events often considered chronologically and is about what is being communicated by these events. What’s tripping me up a bit is how “events and the causal links between them” is spoken during the Story section of this video. Story = “event happens therefore event happens therefore event happens, which sum to this message/thing the author wants to tell the reader” (i think?) And that thing being communicated could be “this character changed in this way” or “through the power of friendship anything is possible” (?) If this was school I would love a worksheet where I write P, S, or C in the answer space for practice haha. I shall continue on with the series and try to pay attention to how these terms are used in context. If anyone reads this ramble, thank you!
@d7LS narrative is the whole thing: plot, story, character, setting and so on. It is a sequence of causally linked events, that happen to people or things, in a temporal and spatial setting... generally speaking. Narrative events are the things that happen in the narrative. Plot is the sequence of the narrative events in the order in which they are narrated in the text. Story is the sequence of narrative events organized chronologically which may require resequencing the text. Characters are the people or things that experience the narrative events. Character arcs map the changes in a character from the beginning of the story to the end (the narrative events arranged chronologically). Star Wars is a narrative that is arranged chronologically (there are no flashbacks) so story and plot are the same. Iron Man has a significant flashback sequence, so it is a narrative that is not told chronologically and so story and plot would be different. Does this help?
I believe E.M. Forester's example of the difference between a series of events and the plot of a story goes something like this: "The king died; the queen died" is not a plot; "The king died; the queen died from her grief" is a plot. Links of causation. Good discussion guys, teasing out the nuanced differences in plot, narrative, and story. I admit I use them interchangeably and thus too loosely.
We all use them interchangeably, and in most circumstances that is fine and understandable. But it is when it comes to discussing pros and cons, writing reviews, or trying to articulate our dis/satisfaction with a narrative that being able to pick them apart is really helpful.
Have either of you read any of Stuart Turton's books? I love the two he's written and am reading the third that just released, but I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the narrative of his first book, The 7 1/2 Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle (I believe a slightly different title in the UK). The way he tells the story is impressed me and I fell in love with it right away
I haven't, but i looked at the first page and it seems like a really interesting choice to root the narration in 1st person present with a protagonist/narrator who has no short term memory, so everything is focused on the present moment. So it looks fascinating.
When we are talking about plotless novels are we talking about something like The Invisible cities by Italo Calvino? Can you tell me some examples of what you would consider a plotless novel?
Certain modernist and postmodernist novels eschewed causal links between 'events' and even 'events' to focus on character studies, stream of consciousness, existential mundanity... By plot we generally mean narrative events that are causally linked, so if there is no causal link, then we can defer to thematic link. Or if it is a mosaic novel or a bind-up, we might look at the implied narrative arc created through the disparate events. Generally speaking, the vast majority of novels, and almost the entirety of genre fiction, will have 'plot'. Whether it is executed well or poorly, is an entirely different question.
Exposition is difficult for me to understand weaving it into the narrator delivering indirect implied thoughts of a character and how it moves the plot. This is my next deep challenge I’m trying to master. Thank you for lessons ✍🏻🔥
I think about 8... but it depends on whether or not there are questions that come up in the comments that we can then do a video dedicated to answering the questions.
AP I have an unrelated idea for a video for you. It frequently happens that fellow online reviewers say something along the lines of: the author spoiled the story in the first chapter. Or, the author spoiled the chapter by saying what is going to happen. That keeps annoying me when people say that. I do not believe there is such a thing as an author spoiling their own story. An author lets readers know what they want them to know at that precise time, and it is always by design. That is the story you're reading. Perhaps you could say something about this?
Sure. If you have a link to a couple of examples that would be really useful. I am having trouble in understanding how an author could 'spoil' the story in early chapters
@@ACriticalDragon For example, a recent review I read about Stephen Graham Jones' Night of the Mannequins said that the author spoiled their own story in the first chapter when the narrator shares the fact that “now most of us are dead, and I’m really starting to feel kind of guilty about it all”. I also hear people say this about Christopher Ruocchio's Sun Eater series because the narrator often says things like "and that would be the last conversation I would ever have with her", or "and that character would become one of my most trusted friends". The people complaining about this as "spoiling the story" by the author seem to be confused about what a narrative does and how a story is supposed to be told in their opinion or something.
@@jeroenadmiraal8714 ah, I will look those up so I can show examples on screen, but this seems to be misunderstanding what an omniscient narrative perspective is.
I can't seem to find any examples in the reviews complaining about the omniscience stuff. If you could send an email with links to specific reviews that would be really helpful.
The plot thickens! Or is it the story? The narrative? Hmmm . . .
The broccoli soup thickens.
@@ACriticalDragon “No actual broccoli was harmed in the making of this video.”
Broccoli fears you... it is a great judge of character... you monster 😂
Highlander, the Thickening...
He will roux the day.
Excited for the discussion on diegetic levels
Just come across this series and I'm enjoying catching-up. It is exactly what I've been looking for. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I am glad that you are enjoying the videos. Hopefully there will be something useful or interesting in them for you. Thanks for watching.
One of the things I enjoy some authors do in their narratives is allow for the reader's interpretation of the words on the page. Another great video to this series, gents. I think not only readers but writers can benefit from these insightful videos.
Really enjoying this series ❤
Just rewatched this - it is GREAT and I admit, I took notes.
Also, last time I watched this I apparently forgot to like it, this has been corrected.
I finally remember the movie that reminds me of AP. It's Finding Forrester, a wise old man with much to teach. I know Sean Connery is scottish and AP is Irish but the same depth of sagacity is found in both. Idk if both can be ascribed the same level of curmudgeony, thank you anyways for the lessons and don't stop.
Always wear your socks inside out so that seam doesn't rub on your toes. 😁
@@ACriticalDragon no 5,000 word essay for homework?
We are saving the assignments for the last video... don't want to scare off the viewers too early.
😁
Is every literature program all over the world required by some secret agreement to use A Rose for Emily in their teaching materials, or is it just a ridiculously convenient tool for demonstrating these particular ideas? It was one of the first stories we read in literary analysis class last fall :D
Faulkner and Hemmingway come up a lot because of how they impacted writing in the US and subsequently 'the Western Canon'.
Plus it is a nice illustration of plural first person or collective first person narration. 🤣🤣
A related reason is that it is more economical for students to teach from a sampler, and many of them will include a lot of the same stories.
Thank you so much for beginning this series with Philip. I've waited for a good brain day to begin watching, and I'm enjoying it already. Having this information together, rather than sprinkled throughout other videos, will make it easier for me to come back to as my brain attempts to fade it from memory.
Cheers A.P. & Philip.
Love it! This was so interesting and I'm super excited to continue the series. Thanks for doing this, guys! 😊
You are very welcome. I hope you enjoy the rest of them.
Enjoying the series - thank you for spending the time putting this together
I’ve been looking for a series like this for a while: I never got this kind of thing in school (STEM guy), so thank you! It has been very enlightening so far.
However, I’m afraid i’m not quite grasping the distinction between the technical definitions of narrative and story. In my head what I’ve got is that Narrative is “event happens therefore event happens therefore event happens” and some events can be more load-bearing than other others for whether or not the causality is preserved. Story is related to a series of events often considered chronologically and is about what is being communicated by these events. What’s tripping me up a bit is how “events and the causal links between them” is spoken during the Story section of this video. Story = “event happens therefore event happens therefore event happens, which sum to this message/thing the author wants to tell the reader” (i think?) And that thing being communicated could be “this character changed in this way” or “through the power of friendship anything is possible” (?) If this was school I would love a worksheet where I write P, S, or C in the answer space for practice haha. I shall continue on with the series and try to pay attention to how these terms are used in context. If anyone reads this ramble, thank you!
@d7LS narrative is the whole thing: plot, story, character, setting and so on. It is a sequence of causally linked events, that happen to people or things, in a temporal and spatial setting... generally speaking.
Narrative events are the things that happen in the narrative.
Plot is the sequence of the narrative events in the order in which they are narrated in the text.
Story is the sequence of narrative events organized chronologically which may require resequencing the text.
Characters are the people or things that experience the narrative events.
Character arcs map the changes in a character from the beginning of the story to the end (the narrative events arranged chronologically).
Star Wars is a narrative that is arranged chronologically (there are no flashbacks) so story and plot are the same.
Iron Man has a significant flashback sequence, so it is a narrative that is not told chronologically and so story and plot would be different.
Does this help?
Thank you for taking the time to respond! This is very helpful I can certainly work with this. Looking forward to the rest.
Loving this series
Fantastic video! Thank you both for it!
You are very welcome, I hope you got some use out of it.
Very interesting.
I believe E.M. Forester's example of the difference between a series of events and the plot of a story goes something like this: "The king died; the queen died" is not a plot; "The king died; the queen died from her grief" is a plot. Links of causation. Good discussion guys, teasing out the nuanced differences in plot, narrative, and story. I admit I use them interchangeably and thus too loosely.
We all use them interchangeably, and in most circumstances that is fine and understandable. But it is when it comes to discussing pros and cons, writing reviews, or trying to articulate our dis/satisfaction with a narrative that being able to pick them apart is really helpful.
Have either of you read any of Stuart Turton's books? I love the two he's written and am reading the third that just released, but I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the narrative of his first book, The 7 1/2 Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle (I believe a slightly different title in the UK). The way he tells the story is impressed me and I fell in love with it right away
I haven't, but i looked at the first page and it seems like a really interesting choice to root the narration in 1st person present with a protagonist/narrator who has no short term memory, so everything is focused on the present moment. So it looks fascinating.
When we are talking about plotless novels are we talking about something like The Invisible cities by Italo Calvino?
Can you tell me some examples of what you would consider a plotless novel?
Certain modernist and postmodernist novels eschewed causal links between 'events' and even 'events' to focus on character studies, stream of consciousness, existential mundanity...
By plot we generally mean narrative events that are causally linked, so if there is no causal link, then we can defer to thematic link. Or if it is a mosaic novel or a bind-up, we might look at the implied narrative arc created through the disparate events.
Generally speaking, the vast majority of novels, and almost the entirety of genre fiction, will have 'plot'. Whether it is executed well or poorly, is an entirely different question.
I would like to register protest for the lack of broccoli jokes in this one.
Sincerely,
Varsha
Jokes aside, very helpful - thank you :)
Philip ate all the broccoli.
There were no survivors... not even a floret. He is an unstoppable monster. 😂😂
Exposition is difficult for me to understand weaving it into the narrator delivering indirect implied thoughts of a character and how it moves the plot. This is my next deep challenge I’m trying to master. Thank you for lessons ✍🏻🔥
Excellent discussion gents, as always. Though I didn't need your origin story AP.😂
I will have to think up a suitably mythic origin story for next time then. 😂
Yay! Literature! Ra! Ra! This is really great. Do you guys have a plan for how many episodes you're doing in this series?
I think about 8... but it depends on whether or not there are questions that come up in the comments that we can then do a video dedicated to answering the questions.
Damn AP give us some time, the last video on this subject came out less than a day ago😂
The first video was an introduction and was primarily jokes about broccoli....😂😂😂😂
29:21 We're all individuals...
(I'm not)
I'm Brian, and so's my wife.
AP I have an unrelated idea for a video for you. It frequently happens that fellow online reviewers say something along the lines of: the author spoiled the story in the first chapter. Or, the author spoiled the chapter by saying what is going to happen. That keeps annoying me when people say that. I do not believe there is such a thing as an author spoiling their own story. An author lets readers know what they want them to know at that precise time, and it is always by design. That is the story you're reading. Perhaps you could say something about this?
Sure. If you have a link to a couple of examples that would be really useful. I am having trouble in understanding how an author could 'spoil' the story in early chapters
@@ACriticalDragon For example, a recent review I read about Stephen Graham Jones' Night of the Mannequins said that the author spoiled their own story in the first chapter when the narrator shares the fact that “now most of us are dead, and I’m really starting to feel kind of guilty about it all”. I also hear people say this about Christopher Ruocchio's Sun Eater series because the narrator often says things like "and that would be the last conversation I would ever have with her", or "and that character would become one of my most trusted friends". The people complaining about this as "spoiling the story" by the author seem to be confused about what a narrative does and how a story is supposed to be told in their opinion or something.
@@jeroenadmiraal8714 ah, I will look those up so I can show examples on screen, but this seems to be misunderstanding what an omniscient narrative perspective is.
I can't seem to find any examples in the reviews complaining about the omniscience stuff.
If you could send an email with links to specific reviews that would be really helpful.
I may have to listen another time or three before I can see a distinction between plot, story, and narrative. 😅