3 Diminished Patterns the Jazz Greats Love
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.พ. 2023
- Diminished patterns are a great way to add some spice and drama to your solos - and the jazz greats like Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Sonny Stitt, Sonny Rollins, Cannonball Adderley, Kenny Garrett, and many more loved them! Here are 3 easy diminished patterns you can start using today!
0:18 The Diminished Scale
2:16 Pattern 1
5:46 Pattern 2
8:23 Pattern 3
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yeah man, that's the face for that chord! Sonny Stitt, so underrated... and what a player!
The are four major triads in the diminished scale, so it can be used over major triads too. The diminished scale is basically the cheat code for improvising over anything.
IMO the best way to get a handle on the dominant/diminished relationship is to look at the diminished as a *rootless* b9 dominant. Actually, any of four rootless dominants, every note in every diminished chord is the b9 of a dominant, etc. But this way it's all symmetrical, forget about "half/whole" vs whole/half etc. It's just whole up/half down from all chord tones. More importantly it connects the dots as far as what's going on there.
I completely agree that looking at the diminshed chord/arpeggio as a rootless b9 chord, and understanding that it's the same notes for the 4 different dominants, is a great way to start understand the relationship. As for the scale side of things, I'm not quite sure I understand how your way of thinking is different from the scales. Thinking a whole up/half down from all the chord tones (except the root of the dominant chord) gives you the same notes, and doesn't seem to be any different than thinking of a scale. That could just be the way my brain works though!
@@joshwakeham oh, I didn't mean to seem disagreeable with anything you said, particularly since you lined everything up with the chord tones nicely. It's just different words for the same thing. But I've seen folks (come to think of, mostly guitar players, like me) struggling with where to start their diminished lines, whether it's whole/half or the other way 'round, etc. On guitar it relates, as much as anything, to the movable chord grips, where the circular symmetry (it seems) makes it easier to get lost ... if that makes sense. I do think it confuses folks when they're taught "half/whole" up from the root of the dominant. Hence my emphasis on "rootless", i.e. that the root of the dominant, even though that's the prevailing chord, is not actually a chord tone in the superimposed diminished structure. And the root of the dominant breaks the symmetry. I recall initially making the connection as I described it, so that's how I tend to tell it. As you say, people's brains work different ways. And guitar is weird ... saxophone material is very good for guitar players 😉. Anyway, cheers for your thoughtful reply.
No worries, I knew you weren't being argumentative, and it's always interesting finding out how other people think of these things!
What about an altered scale? Seems like it could be useful to think of a c altered scale as a bb major scale with a raised root.
Do you mean B major? If so, then yeah that also works!
Im a guitarist and really enjoy your videos. I like the fact that you really expose the idiom, it's phrases. Thank you
You could also play Cdim7 over Cmin because A B C D Eb and F are common. The consonance of a line is directly proportional to the number of common tones with the chord it’s played over.
Just discovered your channel man. Love your tutorials. You earned my sub.
More great content, Josh. I always come away from your videos eager to try something new. These diminished patterns are awesome.
Thanks Francis, that's so great to hear! Let me know how you get on with these patterns!
Thank you so much great information ❤
Fantastic job
There's a lot of valuable information in your videos, presented in such an easy going tone like old buddies talking about the nuts and bolts of improvisation. Thanks for your work, you're an inspiration!
Thanks Ivan, that really means a lot!
Man these are great videos. Very insightful. Much appreciated.
Thank you for good idea!!
Very cool backing tracks for your illustrations.Great sound on that tenor!👍🏽👍🏽😎😎
Thanks!!
I like how the diminished scale can sound almost whole tone like (or Lydian) when the flat 5 or sharp 11 gets used.
GREAT VIDEO!!!
I like that example @ 5:12. Pretty good for a that simple pattern #1.
Great stuff Josh. I like the way you have the diminish flash on screen, makes it easier for self taught guys like me. Some really cool stuff there.
Thanks for watching, so great to hear you found the diminished labels helpful - when I was putting the video together I couldn't decide if they made it better or were just annoying!
Great stuff, Josh
Thanks Chris!
Great ideas. Great teaching. Great sound.
Thanks Paul!
Thank you,Josh🌹🌹🌹🌹
So glad you enjoyed it, Brenda!
So much useful stuff here, Josh!
Thanks Jeff!
I was waiting for that 3rd one
This guy is so fast at juggling that I never even see the balls
😂
This second pattern (the 2 note cell) is what Jaco Pastorius used as the intro to Teen Town if I am not mistaken.
I really appreciate this video! Saxophone players always have the best tips!
It's great to hear that you enjoyed it! I think sax players just have the advantage that they don't really have to spend any time learning to comp properly!
You have take away a blindness from my eyes.
Good lesson I’ve been shedding diminished lately and this was really helpful
Thank you!
I like combining C Diminished with Messaien whole tone.
Usually in tandem with a G Sakura sharp 2.
Fuuuu! I just discovered you now. why?? Your content is sooo good ! Need to binge on your vids. Thank you JW!!
Welcome to the channel, thanks for stopping by! It genuinely means so much that you're enjoying my videos!
you are amazing cus! please keep it up! Hi from Nz!
Thank you so much!
I can't believe I found this video so long after its release. I love diminished! It's such a great tool. Cannonball, Dex, Coltrane, you name it they've used it. Though personally as mainly a Baritone player I'm a sucker for the brilliance of Pepper Adams and Gary Smulyan, those dudes can absolutely rip diminished lines.
Diminished is the way, man! I haven't listened to Pepper Adams in so long...I know what I'm doing tonight!
Loving your backing tracks. I wish they were here on youtube for us to blow over. :(
Thank you, Josh! One can also look out for the great Michael Brecker, a master of the diminished scale, using a lot the four Major Chords which are in the scale. Ex. My one and only love /w J. Calderazzo
Yeah that's another great tip, and a good way to get a more modern sound from the diminished scale!
It sounds like there are 4 major chords if you harmonize this scale and you can superimpose them in similar way? Am I understanding you correctly?
Come to think of it, there's always 4 major, 4 minor, and 8 diminished chords in a given diminished scale, huh?
Where half of the diminished could also be any of the 3 (major / minor / diminished), and the other half of the diminished can only be diminished.
@@p.as.in.pterodactyl1024 I'm gonna need a notepad to work through this.
@@PedroSilvaMusic hola Pedro, major triads are a strong structure. Start with the 1. inversion played down, you`ll get a cool sound.
On the technical side this is a bit beyond me, but I do love a good diminished scale.
Diminished chords and scales are (2,1), therefore they represent movement by the knight or the first skew symmetric scale generated from alterations on major/minor.
Great video! Could you do more content on how to use interesting patterns? :)
Sure thing Philipp, I'll try to do some more videos over the next few weeks!
Josh, thank you! This is an awesome and thorough explanation of using the diminished scale in improvising. I have learned the diminished scale but was never quite sure where to insert it. Especially love the use of the patterns. And thanks for the countdown in your demonstrations. It really helps us identify when and how you're using it. Love this music theory dedication, Josh!
Thanks Luanne, I'm so happy you found the video useful! It's great to hear you found the countdowns useful - I wasn't sure if they'd be useful or annoying!!
8:44 - "you don't need to play it that fast" - noted!
Hi there,whats your sax set up,you sound so good thanks Lou
New subscriber here - that was super helpful. I'm gonna start shedding ASAP
Thanks Chip, it's so great to hear you've been finding my videos helpful!
Is this not the best scale pattern? So satisfying to play.
Wicked video
Thanks!
Best!
Brit talk show style manic energy. Enough to power the space station and pump enough water to make the Mongolian Deserts bloom.
Subbed
Great stuff! Sorry for my newbie question: on a minor vamp (D minor just for example) do you use a diminished pattern created on its dominant chord (A in this case)? Many thanks
Great question! On a minor vamp you actually have loads of options, all of which can sound great
1) Use the diminished scale built off the root of the minor chord (D diminished over D minor). This is what Kenny Garrett does in the example I played
2) use the diminished scale built off the dominant a fourth up (G diminished over D minor). This works because both Dm7 and G7 belong in C major. If I remember rightly, I did this when I demonstrated
3) Use the diminished scale created on its dominant chord (A diminished over D minor). This is the hardest one to use because fewer of the notes are shared between this diminished scale and the dorian mode, and A diminished has an F# when the overall tonality would have an F natural. It can sound good as long as its resolved clearly and cleanly to the Dm, and creates a sort of A7 Dm sound, it's just a bit harder to get it to work than the other 2 options
Wow! Thanks for the exhaustive and quick reply.
No problem, always happy to help!
@@joshwakeham In #1 and #2 would that be WH from the root and #3 be HW from the root? Thanks
I know it's a bit late, but just to clarify, and for example, you play C Half-Whole Diminished over C7, but over C Minor, you can play either C Half-Whole or C Whole-Half diminished?
Yeah exactly. Whole-half is the more common one for minor chords but you absolutely can use half-whole as well, like Kenny Garrett does in the example
When you show on the dashboard , for Gminor you propose g halfwhole. Later in the video in a Cm vamp you use C wholehalf. So for a minor chord what do we use from the same root , halfwhole or the opposite?
You can use either! That Kenny Garrett line uses half-whole, but whole-half is really common (potentially moreso) and you're right, is what I used in some of the demos
This is incredible. The implications for simplifying improvising is amazing. Because of the repetitive nature of the diminished scale, you could play it it over the ii and then just shift the pattern down a semitone and then play it over the V, right?
Thanks Michael! You could do it that way, or you could use the diminished scale from the V chord on the ii chord as well - so for Dm7 and G7 use G Ab Bb B C# D E F G. Hope that helps!
It certainly does! Thank you!!
Love the content! Very helpful. FWIW, the hand motions are over the top and more of a distraction. I found it difficult to watch this vid for all the unnatural motion.
Thanks for watching the video, it's great to hear that you enjoyed it. I'm aware my hands were a bit wild in this video - I'm naturally very animated with my hands when I talk but it's something I'm trying to work on so it gets less distracting in videos!
This may me a laymen question but: If this is for dominant chords, would it work over the relative minor as in a 2-5-1 as I’ve heard you can play over the 2 & 5 chords ignoring the 2 chord and play the 5 chord notes over both chords? Also, is the a diminished scale that would also work over the 1 chord? Thanks for the lesson!
*is there a diminished scale that would also work over the 1 chord (the major chord) of a 2-5-1?
Never mind, u answered my first question lol. Still have the second question about a diminished scale to play over the major chord…
Over a 1 chord the diminished scale is a lot harder to use, but it is possible. If you're coming from a ii V I, you could keep on using the same diminished scale as on the ii and V chords, so you're simply delaying the resolution to chord I (just make sure you do resolve it eventually pr it'll sound odd). The other option is to use the half-whole diminished scale starting on the root of the I chord. This would give a bit more of a middle Eastern sort of sound and might not work in all scenarios, but on an a modal tune could sound pretty hip!
@@joshwakeham 10-4. Appreciate the further instruction
great post ,, two minor tetrachords (GABbC and C#D#EF3) ?
I'd never thought of it like that before, but you're right!
@@joshwakeham and the tetrachords are a tritone apart, hon
Do you have any insight/instruction on joe Henderson’s albums like in an out or our thing? It sounds like he is using these diminished scales a lot of the time….
Not off the top of my head. I'll delve into them, and if I find anything I'll let you know. Watch this space!
Just my opinion: I wouldn't do it in minor due to the natural 13th; e.g. In Bb minor = F7 dim contains D natural.
What is even more interesting in my opinion are passing diminished chords such as in the Jobim tune, Wave.
Yeah, playing against the tonality is definitely a bit harder to pull off, but there are loads of killer examples from the likes of Kenny Garrett, Cannonball Adderley, Dexter Gordon...the list goes on!
When you describe the dim over dorian you used dim HW scale with the same root ( G root dim HW scale ) but when you demonstrating used C dim WH over Cm7 ( which is same with the its dominant's -F- dim HW scale. I am a bit of confused
The relevant diminished scale for a minor is WH, which matches to the associated dom7 being a HW, as long as it’s part of a ii-V7 progression. If, however, it’s a -7b5, you could use the same scale, but with a 1/2 step.
Great question, and you're right I did switch between the two different diminished scales!
When describing the Kenny Garrett pattern I used the Half-whole diminished scale as that is the one he used. The reason that it works is because the second half of the dorian and the second half of the half-whole diminished have the same notes. The important thing is that Kenny Garrett starts the pattern with those notes, so he plays the notes that are shared by the dorian and diminished before going to the noted that are only in the diminished scale. This helps to set up the tension and make it sound good.
In my demonstration, I did use the whole-half diminished instead. The whole-half diminished and the dorian scale start with the same notes (C, D, Eb, F if C is the root). My demonstration starts with those notes to set up the tension before going to the notes that are not in the dorian mode.
I used the Whole-half diminished because as Osnosis pointed out, it means its the same diminished scale the the ii and the V chords, making it a bit easier to use. It was an oversight though and I probably should have used the same version as I did in my explanation! Sorry for the confusion, I hope things are a bit clearer now
First, I notice you are making the "guitar face" when some of the fast recordings were played so we have to believe that your destiny will ultimately be to play the guitar :). Second I find when I think of the diminished scale as starting from either the b9, 3rd, 5th or b7th of a dominant and only think of the whole-half version of it I found I can keep better track of where I am, especially when I am practicing this on upright bass and struggling to know where I am on the fretboard while track which notes to play. Maybe that's because I just need to put more time on this to get a better handle on it....
Haha my facial contortions seem to have become a staple part of my videos!
As for the diminished scale, I know exactly what you mean. I came across the half-whole version first, so that's the one ingrained in my brain. When I first started tackling the whole-half version I just did some mental gymnastics just like yours tk get it to match what I was used to!
The Half-whole scale is an Altered Dominant scale: 1-b9-#9-3-#11-5-6-b7.
The Whole-Half is a Diminished scale: 1-2-b3-4-b5-b6-bb7-7.
- That’s how I see it anyway.
In terms of function, you're definitely right - half-whole is used on dominant chords, whole-half on dim chords. I was always taught them both being called diminished scales, so that's how I've come to think of them
Cheeky enclosures, new band name called it
😂
I had the video on mute and thought this was a salsa lesson!
😂
And people say "Italians shake their hands while speaking" 😂 Just joking, of course! Thank you so much for this amazing lesson!
😂 Glad you enjoyed it!
8:55
I noticed all three patterns were run-ups. Im sure they work running down the scale too. Im still a novice, thx!
You can use them in any direction, the whole scale is often used going up and down. The Cannonball example usually just goes up to add some excitement, but that Coltrane one overall is a descending line if you keep the pattern going
Always half-whole?
Most of the time it is, yeah, which is why I see that as a 'default' version of the scale. The whole-half version tends to only be used on diminished chords, as opposed to dominants or minor chords
Of course diminished chords are minor chords. Minor (whatever)6 b5. I don’t know why anyone uses the term diminished. It’s just another minor chord/scale. R, b3, b5, 6. You can use any notes between the chord tones. The gypsy jazz guys use a scale R, b9, #9, 3, #4,#5, 6, 7. It’s weird but it works in many situations.
I think the function of the chord has a lot to do with why people separate diminished from minor chords - diminished chords often act as a rootless dominant (eg Cdim7 acting as Ab7b9), whereas minor chords don't have the same level of tension, and therefore don't have the same aural similarity when compared to dominants. As with all things theory though, there are different ways to think about the same thing, and it's all about finding ways that work for you!
@@joshwakeham Thanks for responding. I get the relationship with dominant b9 chords. But for me Cdim7 should be written as Ab7b9/C if that’s what it’s supposed to be. I don’t have an academic music background so I can’t dispute the college explanation for this stuff but for me it’s either functioning as a Dominant 7b9 or as a distinct chord in its own right which is minor because it’s got a flat 3.
you mean 'tensions' not extension... right?
Both! They are extensions that create tension
@@joshwakeham not quite. You could double 8va alta the same root, 3d and 5th and you'll have NO tension and YET you have an extension (of the staff). Other way we use 'extensions' are on the bass for example (a 5th or even 6th string in the electric bass) but whatever you use outside the root, 3rd or 5th is, by definition, a tension. Then you can have either a diatonic or non diatonic 'tension' but it's the natural overlapping of thirds (in the triadic system, fourths in the quartal voicings and so on so forth). Being italian, most of the writing is in our language and I never heard of an 'extension' to a chord but rather 9th, 11th, 13th, (different species of sevenths etc).
@@joshwakeham also mind you that a cluster (without reaching out) also creates tension. Do/re/mi/fa/sol played together for example...
Extensions are notes beyond the 7th of a chord, so any 9ths, 11ths and 13ths are extensions. In this example, the extensions used create considerable tension.
@@joshwakeham I'm sorry but I do not agree. The pure triad is root, 3rd and 5th. The 7th (dominant seventh that is) is already a tension (as it would be the major 7th). With the dominant 7th we have already a non diatonic tension in the chord i.e. something that is not to be found in the ionian (known as major) scale. As it's presented in every treaty. Then the fact that they proceed in 3rds is just one of the voicing (i.e. triadic in classical harmony) but not the only one. But other than root, 3rd and 5th, everything thing else is a tension (diatonic or non). Full stop.
Are you talking about "half diminished scale" i.e. "combination of diminish"? 4min 23s, The scale is not G diminished. It's a half diminished scale.
It could be one of the many things in music that has slightly different names in different countries/pedagogical systems, but I was always taught that the half diminished scale, starting on G, was G A Bb C Db Eb F, whereas the diminished scale was alternating half step whole step, so G diminished would be G Ab Bb B C# D E F which is what I played there.
Great video! Loving the ‘stank’ face on Kenny Garrett’s solo!! 🎹🤣
It’s definitely the G diminished (or octatonic scale) starting with a half step, which would normally be used over G7. The octatonic or diminished scale starting with a whole step is normally played over a diminished chord. Locrian or Locrian #2 is commonly used over a half diminished chord (6th mode of the melodic minor).
8:41 The Coltrane pattern*
Bb
G#-C-B
G-F-A-G
E-D-G-F
C#-B-E-D
Bb-G#-C#-B
G-F-Bb
Great video! However, your constant hand movements are kinda distracting. I also talk with my hands a lot, and I think it's easy to overdo it.
Yeah it's entirely a subconscious thing - I don't realise I'm doing it! I've been trying to tone it down in more recent videos, although it's definitely a work in progress!
I wonder why he sounds so loud? Levels are good. It just all sounds loud to me. The whole thing is "in your face."; but, in limits.
Do you mean my talking, my playing, or both?
Could he talk if he had no hands???
I'm not sure I could
Your tone is great!👏👏
Thanks!