What he says here about Justification is something I've been hitting hard on for years now. It doesn't completely fix the problems with our Protestant brothers and sisters, but it does at least frame it correctly so we can at least have honest conversations about what the differences are rather than working from some parody of Catholic teaching they got from somewhere else.
@@ThornyCrown-l5d What do you mean by necessary (absolute vs. normative)? What do you mean by salvation (initial vs. ongoing sanctification vs. glorification)
@@ThornyCrown-l5dTry to imagine if the Catholic claims are true, then it's like refusing to be in union with Peter and Paul and the apostles. Imagine what Paul's response would be to a Christian refusing unity with him. It might seem less incredible when you take that perspective. God bless!
@@apostolicapologetics4829 Ask Boniface VIII. His words are clear as the light of day. "It is altogether necessary for salvation that EVERY HUMAN CREATURE be subject to the Roman Pontiff" (in his ludicrous, "Unam Sanctam"). A false gospel doesn't get any more clear than that.
Of course, no faith no works. Once you have faith you will have works. Eph 2:8,9: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
No one said salvation is by works. I never understood why Protestants insist on this. You will know them by their fruits. I notice Protestants argue against a lot of non-truths or just complete misunderstandings. It's very strange to me. The devil is working hard. I think they can't argue against themselves because they all have different beliefs. If you go against any Protestant denomination it would be an argument against your own. Zero authority and all is relative to your own prideful interpretation. It's clearly demonic. I've seen so many beautiful conversions to the true church. I know there will be many many more. I pray for all to experience the richness and beauty of Jesus' true and full church.
The reformation at its core wasn’t about justification, it wad about rejection of the authority of the Church. Everything else plays second fiddle to that, regardless of what anyone else says.
@@t.d6379 Thanks. I started to realize as I watched longer. I think there's an AC unit in the back haha. Well, at least the camera work and angles were nicely done.
Several months after you posted this, but re: the last few minutes, what would Akin say to those Protestants who have “looked at the evidence hard” and “thought about it” but still disagree with the Catholic Church? Does he think they’re “obstinate” or “contumacious”-and that they’re going to hell? And what would he say to those Catholics who have left the Church-especially those who, again, have looked at these issues? Full disclosure is I’m a Catholic who has a strong, and stronger by the day, pull towards Anglicanism. I’ve been trying to read up on the issues for years now and still find myself unconvinced by the Catholic Church’s positions on papal infallibility, papal supremacy, clerical celibacy, the ordination of women, justification (despite Akin’s minimization of the differences here), and contraception.
Is there any good reason not to say we Catholics believe that there are certain obligatory works required to retain/keep the salvation gained from faith and baptism?
Great discussion! I completely agree that when talking about justification with protestants there's a lot of misunderstanding over what trent is actually condemning and what the true differences really are between Catholics and protestants. There are still differences, but when the issue has been properly spelled out, i think there is much more agreement than people realize.
Set aside what others (Catholics or Protestants) might say for a moment. Here are some questions: If entering heaven demands absolute perfection, yet the law states that no one except Jesus is perfect, how can ordinary people attain the same perfection as Christ and gain entry into God's kingdom? What does the Bible teach about how we achieve righteousness?
@@GalnRomnEph320 as the Bible teaches, salvation is from the Lord. No one is saved or perfected apart from the grace, mercy, and work of God. This work of perfection begins in sanctification and is completed prior to entering heaven. That completion can be spoken of in various ways though.
@@GalnRomnEph320 I wouldn't use the language of perfecting ourselves by God empowered works since it makes us sound like the active agent and God the passive agent. I'd rather use the language of phil 2:12-13. We are commanded to work out our salvation. At the same time we are told that it is God working in us. We are working and God is working. It's a both/and situation. It's synergistic.
@@GalnRomnEph320God purifies and sanctified us. We strive to follow his commandments. We fail over and over again. We keep turning to Jesus for the help and graces to become more like him in Confession. He does the work. We just keep turning to him for forgiveness and the graces. Prayers and spending more time with Him allow more and more graces to flow. We become new creatures and it is very apparent when we can look at him working in us versus our old selves. In most, we're almost unrecognizable.
A VERY important discussion. I think Dr Scott Hahn in the commentary on Romans did raise a concern that most Catholics are practical Pelagians. They believe that people are saved by works. Therein lies the problem that alarms Protestants.
I believe as a cradle Catholic that we are saved wholly and solely by God’s grace, love and mercy, without which we cannot have faith, hope and love. Let me ask you a sincere question. Must we have faith before God’s grace can save us?
@@franka792Anglicans, Lutherans and many other believers in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Also less than half of Catholics believe in transubstantiation.
@@vercingetorix5708 Yes I understand not all Protestants reject the Eucharist. And that’s wonderful. Of those that do, accept it how many believe in transubstantiation? How would you find that info? Who would admit to that? Who polled the Catholics about transubstantiation? Who would admit to not believing in transubstantiation? Sounds like fake news to me. I know not every Catholic believes it but your stats sound like Catholic bashing.
How do we reconcile Hebrews 10:10 and 10:14 to purgatory, have we not been perfected once for all? Haven’t we been sanctified once for all by the offering of his body? Did Jesus not say it was finished on the cross? I’m struggling with staying Protestant and I feel a call to the Catholic Church but I can’t accept certain teachings
OK so when we are baptized all sin including original sin is forgiven this is Heb 10:10 and 10:14 you are talking about. What IS left for us to deal with are the consequences of original sin such as temptation, character flaws, illness, death, etc called concupiscence. Temptation can't hurt us unless we cave to it. If we cave to temptation that is sin and 1 John 5:17 tells us that some sins are deadly implying some are not. We know that nothing unclean can enter into Heaven Revelation 21:27. 1 Corinthians 3:15 But if a man's work is burned up, he will lose everything. He himself will be saved, like a man pulled out of the fire. So we can see that there is a purification fire that is either a moment, a moment of intensity, or a place as it is unclear in 1 Corinthians 3:15 which is why Purgatory doesn't have a specific definition. None of this has anything to do with Jesus on the cross it deals with us and our disordered desires as stated in the video or sins that or not deadly are dealt with by God if we haven't dealt with them or finished dealing with them. Purgatory is not a mulligan or do-over. It also exist in ancient Jewish tradition. jewishencyclopedia has an entry about the Jewish roots of Purgatory.
When you were discussing indulgences, I pictured in my mind prayers for the souls in Purgatory to be like donating blood to a sick or injured person. IYO, is this a good analogy?
No, it's more like we offer presents to a king 👑, so that he may grant our petition. But this particular king always granted their petition, out of pure graciousness and mercy. Indulgences are not our merit, it's 100% from merits of the cross. In fact, it benefits our spiritual growth instead of "taking away" something for us.
@@bluemango8689 I agree to this, all our indulgences and prayer are merited through the Sacrifice of Jesus on the cross meaning all are sacrificial offering on the thrown of God will be valid now because of Jesus. It's like when we carry our own cross like making sacrifice for others sake we do it by following Jesus because He is the only one worthy on the eye of God and God see our works on the lense of Jesus.
The discussion of Purgatory as healing made me think of how "recently the Roman Catholic understanding of the faith is becoming more like the Eastern Orthodox understanding". Have y'all (Catholics) come across this idea, and what are your thoughts?
Jimmy is literally basing this off St Pope Benedict XVI Who made a document on this. This is also in the catechism. And is literally just reading what Trent actually says... So 🤷♂️
I love Jimmy Akin however sometimes I think as a convert his lens is a bit distorted. When Protestants say grace alone or faith alone. The works they are referring to are the sacraments. So Jimmy's explanation is a bit lacking. We cannot accept faith without "works" in this context.
Lutherans (and some Anglicans) affirm baptismal regeneration. Lutherans (and some Anglicans) hold to a real presence. And numerous Protestant denominations teach the sacraments are means of grace.
4:02 “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousnes’; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? - James 2:17, 22-25 … so my question- is this directly teaching the faith + works formulation?
Works help salvation in the way that regular oil changes/tire rotations, etc. on a car help keep the car running. They are not strictly necessary, but they help keep things running. In the same way, all you must do after initial justification to be saved is not die apart from God, ie, don’t reject him by mortal sin and die in un repentance. To that end, allowing God to work through you to do good works to become more like Christ is helpful.
I think Protestants AREN'T sola fide at all. Quite the opposite. Contradistinguishing 'fides,' I think they actually end up with 'fides extra totus' or even 'fide contra totus.' It's traditional sacramental and apostolic Christianity that is 'sola fide' because it is this that is, like, 'totus in fide.' The latter brings everything into 'fides' and refuses to acknowledge the irrelevance of the faith to anything (and vice versa) while the former becomes almost a 'fides absconditus,' an ineffable je ne sais quoi over against 'everything else.'
Having spent 22 years as a devout Catholic and 22 years as a strong Protestant I believe we are NOT that uncommon in the tier 1 type topics. The theology of salvation is an important issue where we're aligned but also very different. I'll share my personal assessment across the 3 salvation segments of "were saved" (justified), we are "being saved" (sanctified), we "will be saved" (glorified). I think Catholics and Protestants are 85ish% in agreement in the first. 70% in the second, and 95% in the 3rd.
We are so far apart it is impossible to be re-united. When Christ re-establishes his Church on earth. There will only be one holy catholic and apostolic Church. Protestants will have no options. They will be part of the Church, whether they like it or not. I cannot understand why Protestants reject the works we have to do to be saved. These are not works for our benefits. These are commanded by God, such as the Charitable Works of Mercy. Among all these , giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity I is also a work of justice pleasing to God Tob. 4:5-11 Sir. 17:22 Mat. 6:2-4. And, don't say you are "saved" before you do these works. These works lead to salvation.
@aussierob7177 thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think we'll see the fuller reality much more clearly when all His chosen and beloved are standing together as a royal priesthood of believers before Him ... before His heavenly throne of grace ... as a Bride adorned for her groom! Based on the Holy Spirit's conviction in me and the Bible's clear teaching, we will credit Him for it all! As much as some would love to say here and now ... "look what I've done for Him" "look how I participated and contribute so much toward my holiness"... then and there we will only be able to say LOOK AT HIM and LOOK AT WHAT THE LORD HAS DONE! Our works will be as filthy rags (to quote the God-breathed words of our King). But to many (unchanged in their futile old covenant ways, arrogant and self-glorifying) He will say ... I never knew you.
@aussierob7177 Saint Paul, in the letter to Ephesians, seems to explain (rather clearly) to the one true church in that city at that time ... that they are saved FOR works. But I'm not seeing a reminder about being saved BY works. In fact we see a cautionary exhortation in that letter to not think it is BY our works. Some think pronouns are the biggest deal ... I think prepositions are much more important! When applying the process of salvation in our lives, a reasonable intellectual goal would be to align closer to how the Lord sees it happening ... in His great love for us IN Christ. And to be careful when old covenant ways creep back into our thinking...( i.e. His role vs our role in justification -> sanctification -> glorification.)
Let’s review the ultimate example of how we acquire *salvation* or what we call *justification*, by examining the life of King David…in a few, simple to understand *steps*. **Step 1.** BEFORE David was King, he was called a man after God’s heart[1 Sam 3:14], which is similar to what God said about Abraham AFTER he credited him with righteousness[Romans 4:3]. David was justified, meaning he had eternal life. **Step 2.** The faith that justified both David and Abraham was a “gift” from God[Ephesians 2:8]. **Step 3.** “Repentance” is also referred to as a gift from God[Acts 11:18]. It’s NOT a work of man. **Step 4.** AFTER David became King, he murdered *Uriah the Hittite* and the apostle John tells us that “no murderer” has *eternal life* dwelling within him[1 John 3:15]. That means David lost his justification. **Step 5.** Paul wrote in Romans 4:6-8 that AFTER David lost his justification, he was re-justified for his faith “apart from works”, by which he(Paul) meant that there was no “work” originating with *man* that resulted in his(David’s) justification. Note that in **step 3** we said that “repentance” is *not* a work of *man*. **Step 6.** To demonstrate this, Paul cites Psalm 32 and we read in that passage that it is only AFTER David did the “good work” of repentance that God removed the guilt of his *sin*, resulting in justification. **Step 7.** We see how in 1 John 1:9 it says that if we confess our sins, God is just and shall purify us from all unrighteousness-EXACTLY as what happened in the example of King David. **Step 8.** Even though David was a man of faith **for the WHOLE YEAR** that he remained “silent”(Psalm 32) about his sin, his “faith alone” did NOT result in his re-justification. It was only AFTER David combined his faith with the “good work” of repenting-the work that comes from God as a *gift*(Acts 11:18)-that he *finally* procured *justification*. Therefore “faith alone” without “works” is *dead* and *cannot justify*. Hence why **James 2:26** says that *verbatim*. **Conclusion:** Martin Luther’s Sola Fide is *false*. Deliberate sin will *destroy* one’s justification[Heb.10:26] until that person combines their faith, which is a gift from God, with “repentance”, which is also a gift, and only then will one be able to receive justification “through faith”. It’s not through faith *alone*[James 2:24] since the good work of *repentance* is also necessary to procure justification, as in the example of King David. Hence why **canon 9** of the Council of Trent says: >”If any one saith, **that by faith alone** the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that **nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification** and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; **let him be anathema.”**
It only works in that instance if the "Fide" is repentance, and if it's repentance, then it works and is sufficient for the entire Christian life, not just initial justification
@@stricklst sola fide works if you trust in Jesus and die like the thief on the cross who had faith in Christ. Otherwise you’re just like the kingdom of Israel who continually put faith in their works than true faith in God.
At 10:08 Jimmy Atkin just agreed with the protestant position in that there is no merit by man. Everything we have or will receive is from God... "so that no man can boast." That is the protestant position. We receive salvation through faith in God. This results in good works but works do not account for anything tpward salvation. We show our faith to others. (
Right, this is both the Catholic and Protestant position. Jimmy's intention is to show that areas where many people on both sides think that Catholics and Protestants disagree but they are not actually points of disagreement; that in this particular respect the Protestant and Catholic position are the same once we work through the different use of language.
@@John_Fisherthe idea that works have no effect on final salvation is an exclusively Protestant claim. The Catholic Church teaches that by grace, man is equipped to do good works, and when he cooperates with grace and does them, he merits more grace, increasing in justification. Initial salvation, Catholics and Protestants (some) agree.
@@lucas____________ I agree. When the original commenter said "We receive salvation..." I inferred that he was discussing initial salvation and explaining that in this respect Catholics and Protestants (generally) agree.
Set aside what others (Catholics or Protestants) might say for a moment. Here are some questions: If entering heaven demands absolute perfection, yet the law states that no one except Jesus is perfect, how can ordinary people attain the same perfection as Christ and gain entry into God's kingdom? What does the Bible teach about how we achieve righteousness?
Leave a mother/father/sister/brother and “follow Him.” No normal person can beat a ‘Monastic.’ - follow the ten commandments? Great, now sell everything you own, give the money to the poor, then ‘follow Him.’ And even then, you still must follow the commandments and the sermon on the mount. produce fruit and eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood to remain in the vine and have life. -- does it sound like Protestantism? Let the dead bury the dead.
God declares us righteous. BUT... When God "declares" something... What happens (Genesis 1) What He declares happens By grace through formed faith we are made "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter) Nobody can go to heaven without being drawn by the Father. This declaration is not earned. It is simply cooperating with the Holy Spirit. If one refuses to co-operate then God is a gentleman and lets us reject Him
What and whom are they protesting against? The Church established by Jesus and His apostles. (Dot, period, full stop) Can't see anything that can go wrong with that.
@@1SigloUno One of the orders given was "Tenete Traditiones", what better time than now to turn back to the early Church in accordance with that order.
@15:18 I am not sure why "punishment" or "penal" are seen as bad words in the protestant community but words like "consequences" or "disciplines" are okay. How is a consequence not the same as punishment? How can we pit medicinal against penal or pain since it is usually the case that medicinal actions are painful? @19:46 I think we could say our prayers are like spiritual anesthesia to those going through purification. Our prayers make their transition through purification more smooth.
5:13 ~ Really? Or maybe your misinterpretation of the context is what disagrees. Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear that Paul is showing that we ARE saved by Gods grace, through our true faith in Jesus, period. Not by works at all. So you're saying Paul is now CONTRADICTING himself? That's on you, not me. 🤷♂Paul brings up people who claim to have faith but if they do not have love then that "faith" can only do so much. If you have faith but not love, it means your faith (trust) is not real faith in the God of Love to begin with. Maybe they have a mental "faith" in how powerful God is. That's still not trusting IN God Himself, or else they'd then understand that God is Love, not just Power. Again: God is Love, and if you have TRUE FAITH in the God of Love, then you'll also have Love in your heart, when you're born of the Holy Spirit of God (Love). Love is but an evidence of your true faith in the God of Love (Jesus Christ). It's similar to people erroneously thinking that they're "saved by works" when they read the book of James. This is not true, of course, as we're only saved by Gods grace through our faith in Him. Period. The works will FOLLOW (God doing the works through us ~> Ephesians 2:10) when one has true faith in Jesus that leads them to being born of the Holy Spirit of God, yes, but the works unto themselves DO NOT "save" our souls. They're simply a result of God working in and through us when we truly have genuine faith in Jesus to become born of the Holy Spirit. You're mixing things up here.
Perhaps you went on to listen to the rest of the discussion and already know this, but if you listen to the next 45 seconds of the conversation up until 6:00, then your comment is actually agreeing with what Jimmy is explaining, not disagreeing. He is saying that a faith working through love if what saves us rather than just a 'faith' that is mere intellectual assent.
@@waynecornell-w5u A baby does not need to confess and repent, for they are subject under their parents. It is under their parent's faith that they are saved and cleansed. We know that this can happen in the instance of the Paralytic Man in Luke 5:20. Jesus saw his friends faith, and said to the man that his sins were forgiven. We also know throughout Acts that entire households were baptized such as in Acts 16:15, as well as Baptism being compared to circumcision in Col 2:11-12.
Is it true what Akin said; the Catholic Church doesn’t teach faith plus works. According to ccc 2068 he told a little lie here. Probably just because he doesn’t understand ccc 2068! May we pray this man learns what the RCC teaches and the Bible teaches 🙏
@@ezekielizuagie7496 Bible never teaches one to be lawless. What it does teach is that trying to earn salvation by following the law is sinful, it is self righteousness. The jews never learned this lesson for the most part. Catholics now perpetuate this issue the Jews fell into. Read Romans 9:27-33 and give me your best summary!
@@GalnRomnEph320 So what happens if one is "Lawless"?. Keeping the Law apart from Faith is useless also having faith with obedience is also useless. Yes Isreal tried to keep the law without Faith.. But As Paul says in Romans also.. The righteois requirements of the Law will be fulfilled in us who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. Anyone who uses faith to deny obedience is looking for an excuse to live according to the flesh. Jesus himself commands obedience and keeping his commandments. if you think your faith in Jesus allows you to disobey him then thats your (faulty) interpretation.
@@ezekielizuagie7496 let me clarify your question for you. What happens when a saved (saved by faith) person is lawless? What happened when David a saved person was lawless? He was chastised for his sin! God disciplines his children for willful disobedience he doesn’t throw them in hell. Sometimes he may even kill them. Regardless, a saved person cannot have sin imputed to their soul, damning them, after they have come under the blood of Christ! Rom 5:9.
Catholics know what grace is, or at least what a free gift is! Everybody likes to get things for free. Right, right? I mean, go to the grocery or malls, at costco, etc. There will be lines to the free to taste kiosk. So why in the hell will catholics pass up on free salvation??? Works-based salvation is a protestant invention. This strategy is to create your own enemy which you alone can defeat. Because salvation is a man named Jesus, son of the Father, salvation then can come from God alone. Salvation, who is Jesus, is also grace. So the unprotestant way to state this is: Salvation is Jesus incarnate(not the law and prophets)=salvation is grace thru faith ( not by works of man).
This is an equivocation fallacy. The Bible is not equal to the entirety of the Word, because the Bible only contains some of the Word of God. The word of god is infinite. The Bible does not even contain all the teachings of Christ
Jesus is The Word made flesh and Jesus VERY clearly states that those who do not listen to you (clergy called by God) do not listen to Me (Jesus)... You fail to realize that protestants weren't given the authority to "interpret" scripture. This is clear when you try to claim that "scripture alone" is all you need for salvation when the scriptures clearly prove that isn't the case LOL. This happens because you subjectively interpret scripture how you wish, BUT God gave you NO authority to do so it's the blind leading the blind...The rise of protestants/other man-made religions was warned about in the Bible which is ironic given how much y'all ignore to continue in your willful ignorance. Yes, God's words are important but PROPERLY understanding them is MORE important and you in your personal interpretation are NOT enough or greater than God's ONLY Christian Church on earth The Holy Catholic Church. Sorry, not sorry...
Humans are bound by the sacraments. God is not bound by the sacraments. If you are capable of being obedient to God, his commandments, and his sacraments, you should.
@@QBlessed93 that is walking by sight and not by faith. Romans 8:4 [4]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:7 [7](For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
jesus is not the messiah jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies the bible says the messiah will gather the exiles in deuteronomy 30:3 isaiah 11:11-12 jeremiah 30:3, 32:37 ezekiel 11:17, 36:24 the bible says the messiah will rebuild the temple in isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20 ezekiel 37:26-27 malachi 3:4 zechariah 14:20-21 the bible says when the messiah comes there will be world peace and a complete end to war in micah 4:1-4 hoseah 2:20 isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18 the bible says the messiah will bring universal knowledge of god in zechariah: 3:98:23, 14:9, 16 isaiah 45:23, 66:23; jeremiah 31:33 ezekiel 38:23; psalm 86:9 zephaniah 3:9. jesus didn't do any of these things, so jesus can't be the messiah.
@KyleWhittington deuteronomy 13 says that false prophets can perform miracles, so even if jesus did raise from the dead, that would not prove he is the messiah.
@@Pomni740you do know that Messiah in Hebrew means “anointed one”. None of those things you said take away from the fact that the meaning of that word applies to Jesus. All the rest of that is your personal interpretation and expectations of what you want from God.
@conservativecatholic9030 Everyone has interpreted those prophecies to be about the messiah for 100s of years. Even christians interpret those prophecies to be about the messiah.
just to pause for a second, do people still believe in the Pope after the decided to announce "all religions point to God and are true? " He is either having a Biden moment or ... something is wrong with his faith. hard to use him or the catechism as anything to look at sensible or biblical? it doesnt sound like the Bible i read or understand
It is about what we call concupiscence the person is saved and guaranteed Heaven. If we don't deal with concupiscence now then God will have excise it from us before we enter into Heaven. 1 Corinthians 3:15 But if a man's work is burned up, he will lose everything. He himself will be saved, like a man pulled out of the fire. This isn't some mulligan or reload the video game save or redo it's about the work on our end.
Going to have to change a lot of Bible verses now, like Book of Acts Chapter 2 verse 21, whoever becomes Catholic will be saved , not whosoever calls on the name of THE LORD.This could take awhile for me to get the correct translation back in the Bible,
A Protestant response. This is an exercise where two Roman Catholic apologists are trying to convince us that “The Church” has always believed in justification by faith alone (but with certain qualifiers). This is a contemporary innovation and recent apologetics tool which flies in the face of actual history. The Council of Trent is unambiguous and clear. Those who profess justification by faith Alone are anathema. CANON 12: “If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified…let him be accursed.”. This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.
It seems to me the claim that “The Church has always believed in justification by faith alone (but with certain qualifiers)" is still true. The use of the term 'faith alone' can be found among Catholic theologans even prior to the Council of Trent, but they meant a particular kind of 'faith' and not everything that can be called 'faith' will justify. Canon 12 is rejecting a particular form of 'faith alone', fiducial faith (faith + hope), when what is needed to receive salvation initially is perfected faith (faith + hope + charity). Jimmy is agreeing with and explaining this in minutes 4-6 of this conversation.
@@paulsmallwood1484 When we're talking about hope in the this context, we're not talking about a kind of 'mere hope' that is just wishful thinking. We are talking about the manner in which "we desire the Kingdom of Heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ's promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit." It is very important, along with faith it is among the 3 great theological virtues, but without love both faith and hope amount to nothing; that's why we need the grace of God to have this supernatural love.
@@John_Fisher Salvation is all about God’s Grace. It is monergistic. Without spiritual regeneration brought about by the Holy Spirit, fallen man has no power or even inclination to desire God. Faith is a gift from God.
@@John_Fisher Those God effectually calls he also freely justifies. He does this, not by infusing righteousness into them but by pardoning their sins and accounting and accepting them as righteous. He does this for Christ’s sake alone and not for anything produced in them or done by them. He does not impute faith itself, the act of believing, or any other gospel obedience to them as their righteousness. Instead, he imputes Christ’s active obedience to the whole law and passive obedience in his death as their whole and only righteousness by faith. This faith is not self-generated; it is the gift of God. 1Romans 3:24; 8:30. 2Romans 4:5-8; Ephesians 1:7. 31 Corinthians 1:30, 31; Romans 5:17-19. 4Philippians 3:8, 9; Ephesians 2:8-10. 5John 1:12; Romans 5:17. Faith that receives and rests on Christ and his righteousness is the only instrument of justification. Yet it does not occur by itself in the person justified, but it is always accompanied by every other saving grace. It is not a dead faith but works through love. 6Romans 3:28. 7Galatians 5:6; James 2:17, 22, 26. By his obedience and death, Christ fully paid the debt of all those who are justified. He endured in their place the penalty they deserved. By this sacrifice of himself in his bloodshed on the cross, he legitimately, really, and fully satisfied God’s justice on their behalf. Yet their justification is based entirely on free grace, because he was given by the Father for them, and his obedience and satisfaction were accepted in their place. These things were done freely, not because of anything in them, so that both the exact justice and the rich grace of God would be glorified in the justification of sinners. 8Hebrews 10:14; 1 Peter 1:18, 19; Isaiah 53:5, 6. 9Romans 8:32; 2 Corinthians 5:21. 10Romans 3:26; Ephesians 1:6,7; 2:7. From all eternity God decreed to justify all the elect, and in the fullness of time Christ died for their sins and rose again for their justification. Nevertheless, they are not justified personally until the Holy Spirit actually applies Christ to them at the proper time. 11Galatians 3:8; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Timothy 2:6. 12Romans 4:25. 13Colossians 1:21, 22; Titus 3:4-7. God continues to forgive the sins of those who are justified. Even though they can never fall from a state of justification, they may fall under God’s fatherly displeasure because of their sins. In that condition they will not usually have the light of his face restored to them until they humble themselves, confess their sins, plead for pardon, and renew their faith and repentance. 14Matthew 6:12; 1 John 1:7, 9. 15John 10:28. 16Psalms 89:31-33. 17Psalms 32:5; Psalms 51; Matthew 26:75. In all these ways, the justification of believers under the Old Testament was exactly the same as the justification of believers under the New Testament.
If there’s charity in your comment, I can’t find it. Accusing us of disbelief without understanding what we believe does nothing to move the conversation forward. If you want to actually reach Catholics, maybe you should represent us accurately. We don’t need to answer the accuser when we have The Redeemer.
I’m not sure how your scriptural citation negates the need for one to be completed in sanctification after death. Perhaps I’m missing it, if so, please provide an explanation for why I should read your verse that way.
If the gospel is just a bunch of slogans, one would expect to find them in scripture. But no, turns out it that's not the case. Guess who's unbiblical?
We all in this thread have common ground (thanks Jimmy!). We all agree that Jesus opened heaven for us and we need faith in Him. Thank you, Jesus! But also, "faith without works is dead."
Nowhere does the Bible say people are saved by works. Salvation is by faith and receiving Jesus as saviour alone. Nothing else is needed. Catholics ADD works and other things in order to get forgiveness. The Bible says we are justified by faith alone for salvation.
And yet Jesus said, "Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." Mat 25 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
@@tabandken8562 Matt 25: 41--46, is is talking about fale religions like the Catholic Church. It's typical of false religious person to twist the scriptures.
On the contrary, Jesus himself added repentance, baptism, Eucharist, obedience, acts of charity, forgiving others, … Jesus explicitly commands a whole lot of things one must do to be saved.
@@alanhales6369 No, it doesn't. The only one who twists the scripture is yourself. Jesus speaks in Matth. 25: 31 - 46 about the Last Judgement, he will hold at the Last Day, NOT ABOUT FALSE RELIGION. He doesn't speak at all of any faith. The only criteria for who goes to hell and who goes to heaven is whether they exercised acts of charity or not. You have to read this of course in the context of the general statements in the Bible about salvation for human beings. Considering now Matthew 25: 31 - 46 and all other Bible passages about how we are saved, the Bible clearly says we are saved by FAITH + GOOD ACTS in the sense of charity. It's typical for Protestants to ignore what they don't like and to twist holy scripture like they want.
@@alanhales6369 No, it doesn't. The only one who twists the scripture is yourself. Jesus speaks in Matth. 25: 31 - 46 about the Last Judgement, he will hold at the Last Day, NOT ABOUT FALSE RELIGION. He doesn't speak at all of any faith. The only criteria for who goes to hell and who goes to heaven in this Bible passage is whether they exercised acts of charity. You have to read this of course in the context of the general statements in the Bible about salvation for human beings. Considering Matthew 25: 31 - 46 and all other Bible passages about how we are saved, the Bible clearly says we are saved by FAITH + GOOD ACTS in the sense of charity. It's typical for Protestants to ignore what they don't like and to twist holy scripture like they want by ADDING things to the texts that are nowhere written.
Nobody in the Bible wore a cowboy hat, Jimmy is anti biblical.
😂😂😂
🤠
😱 me timbers be shivered!
😂😂
Please to see lots of great Catholic TH-camrs here. Looking at you @SipswithSerra and &DrewtheCatholic.
What he says here about Justification is something I've been hitting hard on for years now. It doesn't completely fix the problems with our Protestant brothers and sisters, but it does at least frame it correctly so we can at least have honest conversations about what the differences are rather than working from some parody of Catholic teaching they got from somewhere else.
The fact that papal subordination is necessary for salvation (let alone a host of other things) nullifies anything Aiken has to say.
@@ThornyCrown-l5d What do you mean by necessary (absolute vs. normative)? What do you mean by salvation (initial vs. ongoing sanctification vs. glorification)
@@ThornyCrown-l5dTry to imagine if the Catholic claims are true, then it's like refusing to be in union with Peter and Paul and the apostles. Imagine what Paul's response would be to a Christian refusing unity with him. It might seem less incredible when you take that perspective. God bless!
@@apostolicapologetics4829 Ask Boniface VIII. His words are clear as the light of day.
"It is altogether necessary for salvation that EVERY HUMAN CREATURE be subject to the Roman Pontiff" (in his ludicrous, "Unam Sanctam").
A false gospel doesn't get any more clear than that.
@@richardconlan6711 Trying to imagine the scenario you suggest is not an apologetic at all, but simply wishful thinking and proves absolutely nothing.
Faith without works is dead. Straight out of the Bible!
Of course, no faith no works. Once you have faith you will have works.
Eph 2:8,9: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
No one said salvation is by works. I never understood why Protestants insist on this. You will know them by their fruits.
I notice Protestants argue against a lot of non-truths or just complete misunderstandings. It's very strange to me. The devil is working hard.
I think they can't argue against themselves because they all have different beliefs. If you go against any Protestant denomination it would be an argument against your own. Zero authority and all is relative to your own prideful interpretation. It's clearly demonic.
I've seen so many beautiful conversions to the true church. I know there will be many many more. I pray for all to experience the richness and beauty of Jesus' true and full church.
The reformation at its core wasn’t about justification, it wad about rejection of the authority of the Church. Everything else plays second fiddle to that, regardless of what anyone else says.
Jimmy is the man! The Lord works through this man. God bless and thanks for the video!
Ayyyyy this setup is looking niccccccceeeeeee. I need to step it up. LOL. (Lord, may you provide)
Would be a blessing for you to host me or come visit us in The Zealots Den! God bless brother
They're at the conference
@@t.d6379 Thanks. I started to realize as I watched longer. I think there's an AC unit in the back haha. Well, at least the camera work and angles were nicely done.
Several months after you posted this, but re: the last few minutes, what would Akin say to those Protestants who have “looked at the evidence hard” and “thought about it” but still disagree with the Catholic Church? Does he think they’re “obstinate” or “contumacious”-and that they’re going to hell? And what would he say to those Catholics who have left the Church-especially those who, again, have looked at these issues?
Full disclosure is I’m a Catholic who has a strong, and stronger by the day, pull towards Anglicanism. I’ve been trying to read up on the issues for years now and still find myself unconvinced by the Catholic Church’s positions on papal infallibility, papal supremacy, clerical celibacy, the ordination of women, justification (despite Akin’s minimization of the differences here), and contraception.
Is there any good reason not to say we Catholics believe that there are certain obligatory works required to retain/keep the salvation gained from faith and baptism?
This guy is great! I like the common ground starting point. This should apply to everything we do in life and helps the dialogue! Great job!
I’m not sure this is Jimmy there is no purple attire. Peace and blessings Jimmy thanks for your wisdom.
Great discussion! I completely agree that when talking about justification with protestants there's a lot of misunderstanding over what trent is actually condemning and what the true differences really are between Catholics and protestants. There are still differences, but when the issue has been properly spelled out, i think there is much more agreement than people realize.
Set aside what others (Catholics or Protestants) might say for a moment. Here are some questions: If entering heaven demands absolute perfection, yet the law states that no one except Jesus is perfect, how can ordinary people attain the same perfection as Christ and gain entry into God's kingdom? What does the Bible teach about how we achieve righteousness?
@@GalnRomnEph320 as the Bible teaches, salvation is from the Lord. No one is saved or perfected apart from the grace, mercy, and work of God. This work of perfection begins in sanctification and is completed prior to entering heaven. That completion can be spoken of in various ways though.
@@jess96154 so are you saying we perfect ourselves by doing works empowered by God?
@@GalnRomnEph320 I wouldn't use the language of perfecting ourselves by God empowered works since it makes us sound like the active agent and God the passive agent. I'd rather use the language of phil 2:12-13. We are commanded to work out our salvation. At the same time we are told that it is God working in us. We are working and God is working. It's a both/and situation. It's synergistic.
@@GalnRomnEph320God purifies and sanctified us. We strive to follow his commandments. We fail over and over again. We keep turning to Jesus for the help and graces to become more like him in Confession. He does the work. We just keep turning to him for forgiveness and the graces. Prayers and spending more time with Him allow more and more graces to flow. We become new creatures and it is very apparent when we can look at him working in us versus our old selves. In most, we're almost unrecognizable.
Really appreciate this discussion 🙏.
Love it!
A VERY important discussion.
I think Dr Scott Hahn in the commentary on Romans did raise a concern that most Catholics are practical Pelagians. They believe that people are saved by works.
Therein lies the problem that alarms Protestants.
Protestants should be more concerned about rejecting the Eucharist.
I believe as a cradle Catholic that we are saved wholly and solely by God’s grace, love and mercy, without which we cannot have faith, hope and love.
Let me ask you a sincere question. Must we have faith before God’s grace can save us?
@@franka792Anglicans, Lutherans and many other believers in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
Also less than half of Catholics believe in transubstantiation.
@@vercingetorix5708
Yes I understand not all Protestants reject the Eucharist. And that’s wonderful. Of those that do, accept it how many believe in transubstantiation? How would you find that info? Who would admit to that?
Who polled the Catholics about transubstantiation? Who would admit to not believing in transubstantiation?
Sounds like fake news to me.
I know not every Catholic believes it but your stats sound like Catholic bashing.
@@OzCrusader
You answered it in your first statement.
Finished Seth's vid. Hopping straight over here lol
How do we reconcile Hebrews 10:10 and 10:14 to purgatory, have we not been perfected once for all? Haven’t we been sanctified once for all by the offering of his body? Did Jesus not say it was finished on the cross? I’m struggling with staying Protestant and I feel a call to the Catholic Church but I can’t accept certain teachings
OK so when we are baptized all sin including original sin is forgiven this is Heb 10:10 and 10:14 you are talking about.
What IS left for us to deal with are the consequences of original sin such as temptation, character flaws, illness, death, etc called concupiscence. Temptation can't hurt us unless we cave to it. If we cave to temptation that is sin and 1 John 5:17 tells us that some sins are deadly implying some are not.
We know that nothing unclean can enter into Heaven Revelation 21:27.
1 Corinthians 3:15 But if a man's work is burned up, he will lose everything. He himself will be saved, like a man pulled out of the fire.
So we can see that there is a purification fire that is either a moment, a moment of intensity, or a place as it is unclear in 1 Corinthians 3:15 which is why Purgatory doesn't have a specific definition.
None of this has anything to do with Jesus on the cross it deals with us and our disordered desires as stated in the video or sins that or not deadly are dealt with by God if we haven't dealt with them or finished dealing with them.
Purgatory is not a mulligan or do-over.
It also exist in ancient Jewish tradition. jewishencyclopedia has an entry about the Jewish roots of Purgatory.
Darn, thought I clicked on Branden’s channel: The Chatichumen.
@@DrewTheCatholic 😂😂😂😂
* The Chatechumin
Did you ever do that video you spoke of doing regarding 'elder led' vs magisterial/apostolic/successive ecclesiology?
When you were discussing indulgences, I pictured in my mind prayers for the souls in Purgatory to be like donating blood to a sick or injured person. IYO, is this a good analogy?
No, it's more like we offer presents to a king 👑, so that he may grant our petition. But this particular king always granted their petition, out of pure graciousness and mercy.
Indulgences are not our merit, it's 100% from merits of the cross. In fact, it benefits our spiritual growth instead of "taking away" something for us.
@@bluemango8689 I agree to this, all our indulgences and prayer are merited through the Sacrifice of Jesus on the cross meaning all are sacrificial offering on the thrown of God will be valid now because of Jesus. It's like when we carry our own cross like making sacrifice for others sake we do it by following Jesus because He is the only one worthy on the eye of God and God see our works on the lense of Jesus.
In other words, salvation is by faith alone only insofar as one means by those words neither “faith” nor “alone”.
The idea can be heretical but the person cannot be called a heretic
Would be a blessing to have me on or visit us in the Zealots Den! God bless brother
The discussion of Purgatory as healing made me think of how "recently the Roman Catholic understanding of the faith is becoming more like the Eastern Orthodox understanding". Have y'all (Catholics) come across this idea, and what are your thoughts?
I've never heard of that.
Feel like I need an infallible interpreter to distinguish between what previous popes have taught and what Jimmy is teaching here.
Let me guess, you baptized yourself?
what did previous pope taught and what is jimmy teaching?
It changes from one infallible teacher to the next😂
@@GalnRomnEph320 Caricaturing the catholic position does not make you look any better
Jimmy is literally basing this off St Pope Benedict XVI
Who made a document on this.
This is also in the catechism.
And is literally just reading what Trent actually says...
So 🤷♂️
I love Jimmy Akin however sometimes I think as a convert his lens is a bit distorted.
When Protestants say grace alone or faith alone. The works they are referring to are the sacraments.
So Jimmy's explanation is a bit lacking. We cannot accept faith without "works" in this context.
Lutherans (and some Anglicans) affirm baptismal regeneration. Lutherans (and some Anglicans) hold to a real presence. And numerous Protestant denominations teach the sacraments are means of grace.
The sacraments are more clearly and directly the work of God than man though, with the eyes of faith.
4:02 “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousnes’; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? - James 2:17, 22-25 … so my question- is this directly teaching the faith + works formulation?
Works help salvation in the way that regular oil changes/tire rotations, etc. on a car help keep the car running. They are not strictly necessary, but they help keep things running. In the same way, all you must do after initial justification to be saved is not die apart from God, ie, don’t reject him by mortal sin and die in un repentance. To that end, allowing God to work through you to do good works to become more like Christ is helpful.
I think Protestants AREN'T sola fide at all. Quite the opposite. Contradistinguishing 'fides,' I think they actually end up with 'fides extra totus' or even 'fide contra totus.' It's traditional sacramental and apostolic Christianity that is 'sola fide' because it is this that is, like, 'totus in fide.' The latter brings everything into 'fides' and refuses to acknowledge the irrelevance of the faith to anything (and vice versa) while the former becomes almost a 'fides absconditus,' an ineffable je ne sais quoi over against 'everything else.'
Having spent 22 years as a devout Catholic and 22 years as a strong Protestant I believe we are NOT that uncommon in the tier 1 type topics. The theology of salvation is an important issue where we're aligned but also very different. I'll share my personal assessment across the 3 salvation segments of "were saved" (justified), we are "being saved" (sanctified), we "will be saved" (glorified). I think Catholics and Protestants are 85ish% in agreement in the first. 70% in the second, and 95% in the 3rd.
We are so far apart it is impossible to be re-united. When Christ re-establishes his Church on earth. There will only be one holy catholic and apostolic Church. Protestants will have no options. They will be part of the Church, whether they like it or not.
I cannot understand why Protestants reject the works we have to do to be saved. These are not works for our benefits. These are commanded by God, such as the Charitable Works of Mercy. Among all these , giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity I is also a work of justice pleasing to God
Tob. 4:5-11
Sir. 17:22
Mat. 6:2-4.
And, don't say you are "saved" before you do these works. These works lead to salvation.
@aussierob7177 thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think we'll see the fuller reality much more clearly when all His chosen and beloved are standing together as a royal priesthood of believers before Him ... before His heavenly throne of grace ... as a Bride adorned for her groom! Based on the Holy Spirit's conviction in me and the Bible's clear teaching, we will credit Him for it all! As much as some would love to say here and now ... "look what I've done for Him" "look how I participated and contribute so much toward my holiness"... then and there we will only be able to say LOOK AT HIM and LOOK AT WHAT THE LORD HAS DONE! Our works will be as filthy rags (to quote the God-breathed words of our King). But to many (unchanged in their futile old covenant ways, arrogant and self-glorifying) He will say ... I never knew you.
@aussierob7177 Saint Paul, in the letter to Ephesians, seems to explain (rather clearly) to the one true church in that city at that time ... that they are saved FOR works. But I'm not seeing a reminder about being saved BY works. In fact we see a cautionary exhortation in that letter to not think it is BY our works. Some think pronouns are the biggest deal ... I think prepositions are much more important! When applying the process of salvation in our lives, a reasonable intellectual goal would be to align closer to how the Lord sees it happening ... in His great love for us IN Christ. And to be careful when old covenant ways creep back into our thinking...( i.e. His role vs our role in justification -> sanctification -> glorification.)
Let’s review the ultimate example of how we acquire *salvation* or what we call *justification*, by examining the life of King David…in a few, simple to understand *steps*.
**Step 1.** BEFORE David was King, he was called a man after God’s heart[1 Sam 3:14], which is similar to what God said about Abraham AFTER he credited him with righteousness[Romans 4:3]. David was justified, meaning he had eternal life.
**Step 2.** The faith that justified both David and Abraham was a “gift” from God[Ephesians 2:8].
**Step 3.** “Repentance” is also referred to as a gift from God[Acts 11:18]. It’s NOT a work of man.
**Step 4.** AFTER David became King, he murdered *Uriah the Hittite* and the apostle John tells us that “no murderer” has *eternal life* dwelling within him[1 John 3:15]. That means David lost his justification.
**Step 5.** Paul wrote in Romans 4:6-8 that AFTER David lost his justification, he was re-justified for his faith “apart from works”, by which he(Paul) meant that there was no “work” originating with *man* that resulted in his(David’s) justification. Note that in **step 3** we said that “repentance” is *not* a work of *man*.
**Step 6.** To demonstrate this, Paul cites Psalm 32 and we read in that passage that it is only AFTER David did the “good work” of repentance that God removed the guilt of his *sin*, resulting in justification.
**Step 7.** We see how in 1 John 1:9 it says that if we confess our sins, God is just and shall purify us from all unrighteousness-EXACTLY as what happened in the example of King David.
**Step 8.** Even though David was a man of faith **for the WHOLE YEAR** that he remained “silent”(Psalm 32) about his sin, his “faith alone” did NOT result in his re-justification. It was only AFTER David combined his faith with the “good work” of repenting-the work that comes from God as a *gift*(Acts 11:18)-that he *finally* procured *justification*. Therefore “faith alone” without “works” is *dead* and *cannot justify*. Hence why **James 2:26** says that *verbatim*.
**Conclusion:** Martin Luther’s Sola Fide is *false*. Deliberate sin will *destroy* one’s justification[Heb.10:26] until that person combines their faith, which is a gift from God, with “repentance”, which is also a gift, and only then will one be able to receive justification “through faith”. It’s not through faith *alone*[James 2:24] since the good work of *repentance* is also necessary to procure justification, as in the example of King David. Hence why **canon 9** of the Council of Trent says:
>”If any one saith, **that by faith alone** the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that **nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification** and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; **let him be anathema.”**
Sola fide works if you get hit by lightning and die immediately after baptism. Othherwise….
😂 nice
🤣🤣🤣🤣
In case of emergency, anyone can baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit with water, providing the person has agreed to it.
It only works in that instance if the "Fide" is repentance, and if it's repentance, then it works and is sufficient for the entire Christian life, not just initial justification
@@stricklst sola fide works if you trust in Jesus and die like the thief on the cross who had faith in Christ. Otherwise you’re just like the kingdom of Israel who continually put faith in their works than true faith in God.
At 10:08 Jimmy Atkin just agreed with the protestant position in that there is no merit by man. Everything we have or will receive is from God... "so that no man can boast." That is the protestant position. We receive salvation through faith in God. This results in good works but works do not account for anything tpward salvation. We show our faith to others.
(
Right, this is both the Catholic and Protestant position. Jimmy's intention is to show that areas where many people on both sides think that Catholics and Protestants disagree but they are not actually points of disagreement; that in this particular respect the Protestant and Catholic position are the same once we work through the different use of language.
@@John_Fisherthe idea that works have no effect on final salvation is an exclusively Protestant claim. The Catholic Church teaches that by grace, man is equipped to do good works, and when he cooperates with grace and does them, he merits more grace, increasing in justification.
Initial salvation, Catholics and Protestants (some) agree.
@@lucas____________ I agree. When the original commenter said "We receive salvation..." I inferred that he was discussing initial salvation and explaining that in this respect Catholics and Protestants (generally) agree.
Set aside what others (Catholics or Protestants) might say for a moment. Here are some questions: If entering heaven demands absolute perfection, yet the law states that no one except Jesus is perfect, how can ordinary people attain the same perfection as Christ and gain entry into God's kingdom? What does the Bible teach about how we achieve righteousness?
Leave a mother/father/sister/brother and “follow Him.” No normal person can beat a ‘Monastic.’ - follow the ten commandments? Great, now sell everything you own, give the money to the poor, then ‘follow Him.’ And even then, you still must follow the commandments and the sermon on the mount. produce fruit and eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood to remain in the vine and have life. -- does it sound like Protestantism? Let the dead bury the dead.
God declares us righteous.
BUT... When God "declares" something... What happens (Genesis 1)
What He declares happens
By grace through formed faith we are made "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter)
Nobody can go to heaven without being drawn by the Father.
This declaration is not earned.
It is simply cooperating with the Holy Spirit.
If one refuses to co-operate then God is a gentleman and lets us reject Him
@@RedRoosterRoman you said God declares us righteous! Do you mean Catholic infusion or Protestant imputed - righteousness? Which one you going with?
@@SolaPastora first off, no one has ever followed the 10 commandments! That includes monastics. Now what, sinners go to hell!
@@GalnRomnEph320 Take your meds
Two different Christian purposes. Either its uniting our free will with that of God's. Or it's convincing others that it's already finished.
What and whom are they protesting against?
The Church established by Jesus and His apostles. (Dot, period, full stop)
Can't see anything that can go wrong with that.
The Orthodox Church?
@@vercingetorix5708 God is consistent, especially towards those who wish evils upon His elect.
@@DoingItTheHardWayAgain yes you are right Jesus established the Catholic Church which means universal church not Roman.
@@1SigloUno One of the orders given was "Tenete Traditiones", what better time than now to turn back to the early Church in accordance with that order.
@@DoingItTheHardWayAgain where do read that? Scripture and verse.
Only complain is that his was too short lol
@15:18 I am not sure why "punishment" or "penal" are seen as bad words in the protestant community but words like "consequences" or "disciplines" are okay. How is a consequence not the same as punishment? How can we pit medicinal against penal or pain since it is usually the case that medicinal actions are painful?
@19:46 I think we could say our prayers are like spiritual anesthesia to those going through purification. Our prayers make their transition through purification more smooth.
5:13 ~ Really? Or maybe your misinterpretation of the context is what disagrees. Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear that Paul is showing that we ARE saved by Gods grace, through our true faith in Jesus, period. Not by works at all. So you're saying Paul is now CONTRADICTING himself? That's on you, not me. 🤷♂Paul brings up people who claim to have faith but if they do not have love then that "faith" can only do so much. If you have faith but not love, it means your faith (trust) is not real faith in the God of Love to begin with. Maybe they have a mental "faith" in how powerful God is. That's still not trusting IN God Himself, or else they'd then understand that God is Love, not just Power.
Again: God is Love, and if you have TRUE FAITH in the God of Love, then you'll also have Love in your heart, when you're born of the Holy Spirit of God (Love). Love is but an evidence of your true faith in the God of Love (Jesus Christ). It's similar to people erroneously thinking that they're "saved by works" when they read the book of James. This is not true, of course, as we're only saved by Gods grace through our faith in Him. Period. The works will FOLLOW (God doing the works through us ~> Ephesians 2:10) when one has true faith in Jesus that leads them to being born of the Holy Spirit of God, yes, but the works unto themselves DO NOT "save" our souls. They're simply a result of God working in and through us when we truly have genuine faith in Jesus to become born of the Holy Spirit.
You're mixing things up here.
Perhaps you went on to listen to the rest of the discussion and already know this, but if you listen to the next 45 seconds of the conversation up until 6:00, then your comment is actually agreeing with what Jimmy is explaining, not disagreeing. He is saying that a faith working through love if what saves us rather than just a 'faith' that is mere intellectual assent.
How does a Baby Confess Jesus and Repent from their Sins?
Doesn't need to. Baptism washes away the stain of original sin, and saves it.
@@dyzmadamachus9842 READ BOOK OF ACTS CHAPTER 2 VERSE 38 PETER SAYS YOU MUST REPENT FIRST THEN BE BAPTIZED WASNT HE YOUR FIRST POPE
@@dyzmadamachus9842 what is original sin?
@@waynecornell-w5u A baby does not need to confess and repent, for they are subject under their parents. It is under their parent's faith that they are saved and cleansed.
We know that this can happen in the instance of the Paralytic Man in Luke 5:20. Jesus saw his friends faith, and said to the man that his sins were forgiven.
We also know throughout Acts that entire households were baptized such as in Acts 16:15, as well as Baptism being compared to circumcision in Col 2:11-12.
@@Cklert where is that in the Catholic Bible?
Is it true what Akin said; the Catholic Church doesn’t teach faith plus works. According to ccc 2068 he told a little lie here. Probably just because he doesn’t understand ccc 2068! May we pray this man learns what the RCC teaches and the Bible teaches 🙏
Does your denomination teach you to break the 10 comandments?
@@ezekielizuagie7496 Bible never teaches one to be lawless. What it does teach is that trying to earn salvation by following the law is sinful, it is self righteousness. The jews never learned this lesson for the most part. Catholics now perpetuate this issue the Jews fell into. Read Romans 9:27-33 and give me your best summary!
@@GalnRomnEph320does this mean you believe that a person with faith will follow the 10 Commandments?
@@GalnRomnEph320 So what happens if one is "Lawless"?.
Keeping the Law apart from Faith is useless also having faith with obedience is also useless.
Yes Isreal tried to keep the law without Faith.. But As Paul says in Romans also.. The righteois requirements of the Law will be fulfilled in us who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit.
Anyone who uses faith to deny obedience is looking for an excuse to live according to the flesh.
Jesus himself commands obedience and keeping his commandments.
if you think your faith in Jesus allows you to disobey him then thats your (faulty) interpretation.
@@ezekielizuagie7496 let me clarify your question for you. What happens when a saved (saved by faith) person is lawless? What happened when David a saved person was lawless? He was chastised for his sin! God disciplines his children for willful disobedience he doesn’t throw them in hell. Sometimes he may even kill them. Regardless, a saved person cannot have sin imputed to their soul, damning them, after they have come under the blood of Christ! Rom 5:9.
Christians are saved by Faith alone.
Edit: I said "by" twice. Oops.
Chapter/verse?
@@AllGloryandHonor Romans 3:28 is one example, but it is implied all throughout Scripture.
@@AllGloryandHonoractually we are not saved by faith. We are saved through faith and BY grace. God alone does the saving work.
Purgatory is simply another form of disbelieving God.
Hebrews 10:14
[14]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
@@thatoneskinnykid false
So how could the church teach if you die right after baptism if baptism doesn’t free you of disordered desires?
Because you haven’t had the chance to sin.
@@JMJ.516 So you’re saying you can go to heaven with disordered desires
This isn’t a coherent question.
Catholics know what grace is, or at least what a free gift is! Everybody likes to get things for free. Right, right? I mean, go to the grocery or malls, at costco, etc. There will be lines to the free to taste kiosk. So why in the hell will catholics pass up on free salvation??? Works-based salvation is a protestant invention. This strategy is to create your own enemy which you alone can defeat. Because salvation is a man named Jesus, son of the Father, salvation then can come from God alone. Salvation, who is Jesus, is also grace. So the unprotestant way to state this is: Salvation is Jesus incarnate(not the law and prophets)=salvation is grace thru faith ( not by works of man).
I really don't care for adapting my language to protestant sensitivities. This only dilutes and weakens our faith.
Wwww
Lord I tried to tell them
That the Bible, your Holy Word was not enough! How’s that going to sound?
This is an equivocation fallacy. The Bible is not equal to the entirety of the Word, because the Bible only contains some of the Word of God. The word of god is infinite. The Bible does not even contain all the teachings of Christ
@@lucas____________ how do you attain salvation?
@@lucas____________ so you need more? Yes or no?
Jesus is The Word made flesh and Jesus VERY clearly states that those who do not listen to you (clergy called by God) do not listen to Me (Jesus)... You fail to realize that protestants weren't given the authority to "interpret" scripture. This is clear when you try to claim that "scripture alone" is all you need for salvation when the scriptures clearly prove that isn't the case LOL. This happens because you subjectively interpret scripture how you wish, BUT God gave you NO authority to do so it's the blind leading the blind...The rise of protestants/other man-made religions was warned about in the Bible which is ironic given how much y'all ignore to continue in your willful ignorance. Yes, God's words are important but PROPERLY understanding them is MORE important and you in your personal interpretation are NOT enough or greater than God's ONLY Christian Church on earth The Holy Catholic Church. Sorry, not sorry...
@@irienerd8178 ok - after all that …. How do you attain salvation?
CC believes in salvation by works since it says one must be baptized, which itself is a work or action.
1 Peter 3:21. I guess the Bible is unbiblical.
Humans are bound by the sacraments. God is not bound by the sacraments. If you are capable of being obedient to God, his commandments, and his sacraments, you should.
@@KyleWhittington or perhaps his personal interpretation of scripture is unbiblical… I think it’s more likely that.
@@QBlessed93 that is walking by sight and not by faith.
Romans 8:4
[4]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 5:7
[7](For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
@@jeromepopiel388Faith is a work since it is something you must do!
jesus is not the messiah jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies the bible says the messiah will gather the exiles in deuteronomy 30:3 isaiah 11:11-12 jeremiah 30:3, 32:37 ezekiel 11:17, 36:24 the bible says the messiah will rebuild the temple in isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20 ezekiel 37:26-27 malachi 3:4 zechariah 14:20-21 the bible says when the messiah comes there will be world peace and a complete end to war in micah 4:1-4 hoseah 2:20 isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18 the bible says the messiah will bring universal knowledge of god in zechariah: 3:9 8:23, 14:9, 16 isaiah 45:23, 66:23; jeremiah 31:33 ezekiel 38:23; psalm 86:9 zephaniah 3:9. jesus didn't do any of these things, so jesus can't be the messiah.
He rose from the dead. Your argument is invalid.
@KyleWhittington deuteronomy 13 says that false prophets can perform miracles, so even if jesus did raise from the dead, that would not prove he is the messiah.
@@Pomni740you do know that Messiah in Hebrew means “anointed one”. None of those things you said take away from the fact that the meaning of that word applies to Jesus.
All the rest of that is your personal interpretation and expectations of what you want from God.
@conservativecatholic9030 Everyone has interpreted those prophecies to be about the messiah for 100s of years. Even christians interpret those prophecies to be about the messiah.
@@Pomni740 okay, then they don’t disprove Jesus as being the Christ.
just to pause for a second, do people still believe in the Pope after the decided to announce "all religions point to God and are true? "
He is either having a Biden moment or ... something is wrong with his faith. hard to use him or the catechism as anything to look at sensible or biblical? it doesnt sound like the Bible i read or understand
Why we need purgatory if the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness? Our souls are going to heaven not our flesh our sinful bodies.
It is about what we call concupiscence the person is saved and guaranteed Heaven. If we don't deal with concupiscence now then God will have excise it from us before we enter into Heaven.
1 Corinthians 3:15 But if a man's work is burned up, he will lose everything. He himself will be saved, like a man pulled out of the fire.
This isn't some mulligan or reload the video game save or redo it's about the work on our end.
Going to have to change a lot of Bible verses now, like Book of Acts Chapter 2 verse 21, whoever becomes Catholic will be saved , not whosoever calls on the name of THE LORD.This could take awhile for me to get the correct translation back in the Bible,
Huh?
@@Vaughndaleoulaw WHY DOESNT THE BIBLE SAY YOU MUST BE CATHOLIC TO BE SAVED
@@waynecornell-w5u Why does not the Bible say you must be Christian to be saved?
@@Vaughndaleoulaw It says whosoever!!!!!! Yahoo I am one of those Whosoever's
A Protestant response. This is an exercise where two Roman Catholic apologists are trying to convince us that “The Church” has always believed in justification by faith alone (but with certain qualifiers). This is a contemporary innovation and recent apologetics tool which flies in the face of actual history. The Council of Trent is unambiguous and clear. Those who profess justification by faith Alone are anathema. CANON 12: “If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified…let him be accursed.”. This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.
It seems to me the claim that “The Church has always believed in justification by faith alone (but with certain qualifiers)" is still true. The use of the term 'faith alone' can be found among Catholic theologans even prior to the Council of Trent, but they meant a particular kind of 'faith' and not everything that can be called 'faith' will justify. Canon 12 is rejecting a particular form of 'faith alone', fiducial faith (faith + hope), when what is needed to receive salvation initially is perfected faith (faith + hope + charity). Jimmy is agreeing with and explaining this in minutes 4-6 of this conversation.
@@John_Fisher It is more than mere hope my friend. It is confidence. It is trust.
@@paulsmallwood1484 When we're talking about hope in the this context, we're not talking about a kind of 'mere hope' that is just wishful thinking. We are talking about the manner in which "we desire the Kingdom of Heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ's promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit." It is very important, along with faith it is among the 3 great theological virtues, but without love both faith and hope amount to nothing; that's why we need the grace of God to have this supernatural love.
@@John_Fisher Salvation is all about God’s Grace. It is monergistic. Without spiritual regeneration brought about by the Holy Spirit, fallen man has no power or even inclination to desire God. Faith is a gift from God.
@@John_Fisher Those God effectually calls he also freely justifies. He does this, not by infusing righteousness into them but by pardoning their sins and accounting and accepting them as righteous. He does this for Christ’s sake alone and not for anything produced in them or done by them. He does not impute faith itself, the act of believing, or any other gospel obedience to them as their righteousness. Instead, he imputes Christ’s active obedience to the whole law and passive obedience in his death as their whole and only righteousness by faith. This faith is not self-generated; it is the gift of God.
1Romans 3:24; 8:30. 2Romans 4:5-8; Ephesians 1:7. 31 Corinthians 1:30, 31; Romans 5:17-19. 4Philippians 3:8, 9; Ephesians 2:8-10. 5John 1:12; Romans 5:17.
Faith that receives and rests on Christ and his righteousness is the only instrument of justification. Yet it does not occur by itself in the person justified, but it is always accompanied by every other saving grace. It is not a dead faith but works through love.
6Romans 3:28. 7Galatians 5:6; James 2:17, 22, 26.
By his obedience and death, Christ fully paid the debt of all those who are justified. He endured in their place the penalty they deserved. By this sacrifice of himself in his bloodshed on the cross, he legitimately, really, and fully satisfied God’s justice on their behalf. Yet their justification is based entirely on free grace, because he was given by the Father for them, and his obedience and satisfaction were accepted in their place. These things were done freely, not because of anything in them, so that both the exact justice and the rich grace of God would be glorified in the justification of sinners.
8Hebrews 10:14; 1 Peter 1:18, 19; Isaiah 53:5, 6. 9Romans 8:32; 2 Corinthians 5:21. 10Romans 3:26; Ephesians 1:6,7; 2:7.
From all eternity God decreed to justify all the elect, and in the fullness of time Christ died for their sins and rose again for their justification. Nevertheless, they are not justified personally until the Holy Spirit actually applies Christ to them at the proper time.
11Galatians 3:8; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Timothy 2:6. 12Romans 4:25. 13Colossians 1:21, 22; Titus 3:4-7.
God continues to forgive the sins of those who are justified. Even though they can never fall from a state of justification, they may fall under God’s fatherly displeasure because of their sins. In that condition they will not usually have the light of his face restored to them until they humble themselves, confess their sins, plead for pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.
14Matthew 6:12; 1 John 1:7, 9. 15John 10:28. 16Psalms 89:31-33. 17Psalms 32:5; Psalms 51; Matthew 26:75.
In all these ways, the justification of believers under the Old Testament was exactly the same as the justification of believers under the New Testament.
Purgatory is not in the Bible and is simply disbelief.
Hebrews 10:14
[14]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
If there’s charity in your comment, I can’t find it. Accusing us of disbelief without understanding what we believe does nothing to move the conversation forward. If you want to actually reach Catholics, maybe you should represent us accurately. We don’t need to answer the accuser when we have The Redeemer.
You don't know authentic Christian theology
Purgatory is in the Bible, just not the specific word. Sort of like the Trinity.
I’m not sure how your scriptural citation negates the need for one to be completed in sanctification after death.
Perhaps I’m missing it, if so, please provide an explanation for why I should read your verse that way.
No wonder Prots has only 66 books..
INCOMPLETE..😂😁
Salvation=faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone. John3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 10:9-10
Yeah I'm not seeing "alone" in any of those verses. Why add words to Scripture?
When is the only time faith alone is said in the Bible? Just wondering.
If the gospel is just a bunch of slogans, one would expect to find them in scripture. But no, turns out it that's not the case. Guess who's unbiblical?
You added "alone".
We all in this thread have common ground (thanks Jimmy!). We all agree that Jesus opened heaven for us and we need faith in Him. Thank you, Jesus! But also, "faith without works is dead."
Nowhere does the Bible say people are saved by works. Salvation is by faith and receiving Jesus as saviour alone. Nothing else is needed.
Catholics ADD works and other things in order to get forgiveness.
The Bible says we are justified by faith alone for salvation.
And yet Jesus said, "Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." Mat 25
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
@@tabandken8562 Matt 25: 41--46, is is talking about fale religions like the Catholic Church.
It's typical of false religious person to twist the scriptures.
On the contrary, Jesus himself added repentance, baptism, Eucharist, obedience, acts of charity, forgiving others, … Jesus explicitly commands a whole lot of things one must do to be saved.
@@alanhales6369
No, it doesn't. The only one who twists the scripture is yourself. Jesus speaks in Matth. 25: 31 - 46 about the Last Judgement, he will hold at the Last Day, NOT ABOUT FALSE RELIGION. He doesn't speak at all of any faith. The only criteria for who goes to hell and who goes to heaven is whether they exercised acts of charity or not.
You have to read this of course in the context of the general statements in the Bible about salvation for human beings. Considering now Matthew 25: 31 - 46 and all other Bible passages about how we are saved, the Bible clearly says we are saved by FAITH + GOOD ACTS in the sense of charity.
It's typical for Protestants to ignore what they don't like and to twist holy scripture like they want.
@@alanhales6369
No, it doesn't. The only one who twists the scripture is yourself. Jesus speaks in Matth. 25: 31 - 46 about the Last Judgement, he will hold at the Last Day, NOT ABOUT FALSE RELIGION. He doesn't speak at all of any faith. The only criteria for who goes to hell and who goes to heaven in this Bible passage is whether they exercised acts of charity.
You have to read this of course in the context of the general statements in the Bible about salvation for human beings. Considering Matthew 25: 31 - 46 and all other Bible passages about how we are saved, the Bible clearly says we are saved by FAITH + GOOD ACTS in the sense of charity.
It's typical for Protestants to ignore what they don't like and to twist holy scripture like they want by ADDING things to the texts that are nowhere written.