I'm curious what made you decide the correct position was spearhead down and both thumbs together for spear-tutta porta di ferro? I agree that leads to your favored play from that position and it is an effective one, but I don't think that is Fiore is trying to tell us to do... I think the alternate that you show that starts there and beats to the left is problematical for the reasons you say. I definitely enjoy seeing everyone's interpretations and you discussion on using right finestra to break the thrust was interesting.
I came to this conclusion for a few reasons. in the ghetty it's rather hard to tell where the spearpoint is due to the head of the lance not being clearly drawn, however the top end is far rounder than the bottom. His hands are a little ambiguous but the bottom one is decidedly thumbs in. There are no other depictions of the guard with the spear as named, however Vadi's manuscript which is a successor in many ways to Fiore shows the guards on the right and his first is exactly like this, tip down, thumb to thumb. He says to beat to the left, I take this to mean the opponent's left since I'm also crossing the opponent's spear and making a safer line. To add strength to this I go to a thumb to thumb grip, but it is not required. Now I will be the first to say that you can absolutely strike downward from your shoulder with your top hand (like Posta di Donna) and also achieve a break or crossing, however since I believe the spear head to be down I would end up with the wrong end forwards for a thrust. If my spearpoint ends up high, then I would use it. I've a theory about the spear guards that I hinted at in this vid and will conclude the series with, that being that the posta here are not so much guards you take or stand in but positions you may be in for various scenarios (especially Vera Croce). This one being very common if you just had to defend your lower body from a thrust. And as such I doubt Fiore would mind much if you parried with either end in the moment. It just depends upon where your spearpoint is. If it's low and you break from above, get ready to wrestle.
@@rocketcityhema671 Oh, I 100% agree with you that I don't think Fiore minds as long as you are doing an effective play, I just think that the likelihood is greater that the point is up because two of the three plus one (always tend to think of the Florius as +1) manuscripts actually depict the head up. Looking through the other imagery, the butt-cap is often shown as a spike of a smaller size than the lanza head. I do think the thumbs matter less as when you look through all of the hands spread apart on a weapon haft, or half-swording, there is variance. I tend to think that results from your judgement on if you need to present more strength or need to protect the forward hand more by making the palm a harder target. It does affect the movement of whatever weapon a little but I think we need to be comfortable gripping in multiple ways and transitioning between different grips for different purposes. And cool, I'll look forward to your theory at the conclusion of the series. Can't wait for the next one.
@@jasonjames9836 So Looking through the other manuscripts, you are correct 2 of the 3 do show the lance head up. In which case, yeah, striking downwards ala a fendenti makes the most sense. I'll be discussing that in the conclusion vid. However, Vadi does clearly show head down for his, though I believe he never names it, and the Partisan sources of later use favor this hinging action. So I'm still pretty happy with it as an Italian method. *shrugs* ah well, as we've said, I doubt Fiore minds effective options being on the table. I personally find myself in my version more than tip at the shoulder, so I'll gravitate towards it.
Very nice demonstration
I'm curious what made you decide the correct position was spearhead down and both thumbs together for spear-tutta porta di ferro? I agree that leads to your favored play from that position and it is an effective one, but I don't think that is Fiore is trying to tell us to do... I think the alternate that you show that starts there and beats to the left is problematical for the reasons you say. I definitely enjoy seeing everyone's interpretations and you discussion on using right finestra to break the thrust was interesting.
I came to this conclusion for a few reasons. in the ghetty it's rather hard to tell where the spearpoint is due to the head of the lance not being clearly drawn, however the top end is far rounder than the bottom. His hands are a little ambiguous but the bottom one is decidedly thumbs in. There are no other depictions of the guard with the spear as named, however Vadi's manuscript which is a successor in many ways to Fiore shows the guards on the right and his first is exactly like this, tip down, thumb to thumb. He says to beat to the left, I take this to mean the opponent's left since I'm also crossing the opponent's spear and making a safer line. To add strength to this I go to a thumb to thumb grip, but it is not required.
Now I will be the first to say that you can absolutely strike downward from your shoulder with your top hand (like Posta di Donna) and also achieve a break or crossing, however since I believe the spear head to be down I would end up with the wrong end forwards for a thrust. If my spearpoint ends up high, then I would use it.
I've a theory about the spear guards that I hinted at in this vid and will conclude the series with, that being that the posta here are not so much guards you take or stand in but positions you may be in for various scenarios (especially Vera Croce). This one being very common if you just had to defend your lower body from a thrust. And as such I doubt Fiore would mind much if you parried with either end in the moment. It just depends upon where your spearpoint is. If it's low and you break from above, get ready to wrestle.
@@rocketcityhema671 Oh, I 100% agree with you that I don't think Fiore minds as long as you are doing an effective play, I just think that the likelihood is greater that the point is up because two of the three plus one (always tend to think of the Florius as +1) manuscripts actually depict the head up. Looking through the other imagery, the butt-cap is often shown as a spike of a smaller size than the lanza head. I do think the thumbs matter less as when you look through all of the hands spread apart on a weapon haft, or half-swording, there is variance. I tend to think that results from your judgement on if you need to present more strength or need to protect the forward hand more by making the palm a harder target. It does affect the movement of whatever weapon a little but I think we need to be comfortable gripping in multiple ways and transitioning between different grips for different purposes.
And cool, I'll look forward to your theory at the conclusion of the series. Can't wait for the next one.
@@jasonjames9836 So Looking through the other manuscripts, you are correct 2 of the 3 do show the lance head up. In which case, yeah, striking downwards ala a fendenti makes the most sense. I'll be discussing that in the conclusion vid. However, Vadi does clearly show head down for his, though I believe he never names it, and the Partisan sources of later use favor this hinging action. So I'm still pretty happy with it as an Italian method. *shrugs* ah well, as we've said, I doubt Fiore minds effective options being on the table. I personally find myself in my version more than tip at the shoulder, so I'll gravitate towards it.