Looks like I've kicked the hornet's nest. Few caveats: 1. As I say in the lesson, I'm not claiming Buddy wasn't skilled. Only that his influence on the jazz idiom is overstated. That doesn't mean I don't think he's great 2. I'm a big proponent of stating "hard to swallow" opinions from time-to-time. I hate to see anybody go, but if some people unsubscribe because I've offended them, some people subscribe because they agree with me and respect me for saying what I think, and still more people subscribe because they *disagree* but still respect me for saying what I think, that's a net I can live with. 3. I'm not saying Buddy wasn't great ;)
Nate, Your opinion is at best uninformed, and, at worst, small-minded. This is not where you want to be, if you hold yourself out as an educator. THE thing all musicians aspire to, particularly in jazz, is a spontaneous, seamflow of of honest, compelling expression that touches the hearts of listeners. Buddy emoted as well as anybody, and exponentially better than most. To be a technical genius and emote is the most difficult needle to thread because the two often cut against each other. Plus, he did it in a style of jazz, big band, that requires far more discipline than playing in smaller groups, which again makes it harder to keep the flow, swing, and improvisation going. He caught, and accentuated every note his band was playing to the maximum without ever getting in the way of any of his players, always maximizing the potential of the music. Most drummers max out quickly doing a drum solo because they lack either the chops, or the ability to tell a story in their solo to hold the audience's attention. Buddy could mesmerize an audience for as long as he wanted to. He could jump in the audience's lap with fun loving over the top performance, or become one with his instrument, as if the the audience didn't exit. It was gripping either way. Plus, he played with total passion, and commitment to the art form. Moreover, he held his ground, and played what he wanted to play, when the world said big band was dead.He reinvented big band jazz, and made it relevant as form of music to listen too, not merely dance to. That's a true artist. Buddy's influence on drumming is to hit the pinnacle of emotion, and communication with every note you play. Your opinion compares apples to oranges. You seem to like the more quirky, small group jazz people. It's an entirely different style than big band, although, many of the greats there played with Buddy and loved him. Nothing wrong with the drummers you mentioned. I love everybody who is attempting to move the art form forward. Your fatal mistake was condemning Buddy to create clickbait. Why not say, we're all familiar with Buddy's genius, but are are some super drummers who deserve our respect too? Moreover, it's really soulless to personally attack a deceased human being's character. Clearly, you didn't know Buddy. He was loved by most who knew him. He was generous beyond words, and a wonderful husband, and father. Sure, he had his bus tapes, that he himself loved, and laughed at. He had a sense of humor about his own drive to create the best music possible for every person who paid their hard earned cash to see a great show. My suggestion is really own your multiple mistakes here, and make them right. True that, nobody can teach a drummer to play like Buddy, but you should do a video to talk about what made him great. And you might learn something of the man, and share some of the great things he did for others. Buddy's not here to defend himself. Play fair. As it is, you look so ignorant, it throws into question your credibility as a teacher. It's never too late to learn, and make things right for a true educator. Long live, the late, great Buddy Rich.
Nate has a point and he does not attack the man at all, chill out man. I would be much more critical. Buddy was sure a hell of a drummer and his skills and chops are out of this world; still today when I see him perform I am flabergasted BUT most the music he played sucks. A fantastic entertainer as I politely say but music wise not interesting: Circus Music at its best.
Great idea!! I sent Adam Neely's "bass playing for guitarists" tutorial to my guitar player when we started our duo side project... It was an eye opener for him and we also share lots of musical education videos to one another... Even though he's not a drummer, he'll sit through a good lesson video just to get a grasp of what I go through in my head when playing with him. Sometimes it's just a drum lick he picks up and writes a guitar riff to fit around it and give me a break to do a fill along those lines... Same on my side when I learn about scales and modes and how they were applied in whatever songs and I use those as examples to tell him how a guitar solo could work within our context.... So yeah! Great idea! Do it!!!
@@G60syncro Yeah exactly Adam's video reminded me of this idea! I think it could be exciting for non-drummers, and it would definitely draw more ppl to this fantastic channel. Listen to the people, Nathan.
not the best there is no such thing. but buddy made so many ppl pick up a pair of sticks. he was a power machine and his name is in the books for ever.
Anybody who loves Buddy should pay homage to his friend and extremely talented drummer (perhaps Buddy's equal), Louis Bellson. Buddy respected Louis so much that he had Mr. Bellson sit in for him when he once was too ill to make an extended tour.
I spent my teens and twenties idolizing BR, and saw him in concert several times. At the time, I loved what his band was doing, and his chops can't be understated. (No really - they were NEVER understated. 😂) I knew he wasn't revolutionary or anything like that, and I also spent a lot of time listening to Max, Tony, Philly Joe, etc., but BR's band was really dynamic and fun to listen to. I have a really hard time listening to more modern jazz (and even some old bebop). You have a ton of clips here with some insanely great drumming, but I couldn't sit through any of these tunes. (That also may be why fusion drummers get more attention - because their music is more approachable.) I've really tried to listen to drummers when you suggest them, but I just haven't gotten used to the melodic/harmonic structure of modern jazz. Here's why I think BR is on the top 10 lists (besides publisher laziness) - I noticed, when I came back into drumming in the late 90s, when I would read Modern Drummer, any given issue would have at least one interview where they mentioned BR as an influence, along with Keith Moon, John Bonham, etc. But 10 years after his death, drummers still talked about him. That's some serious influence. People remembered him. And I always came away from a BR concert wanting to practice more. Keep up the great videos! I learn a ton from your channel.
I agree with your assessment however, I will ascertain that but he was revolutionary when he came on the scene he was revolutionary and one is only revolutionary in the beginning and then becomes an excepted norm?! I don’t know but buddy will never be normal I mean his playing will always be anything but normal he was a freak of nature and a force of nature and I’ll leave it at that
He was also one of the best bebop drummers. Had no trouble adapting, & proved it w/ countless bebop sessions, Including many w/ somebody he used to get into fights with, one Charlie Parker, who loved him!
Buddy Rich had other-worldly chops for sure, but what he did best was drive large bands with un-erring accuracy, propellant comping and incredibly original, musical and appropriate fills. He was the best ever in that regard. However, it was a niche and those skills don't translate to the myriad other musical styles in the world today. Just like Neal Peart, who always sounded like a fish out of water outside of the Rush context, Buddy's bombast didn't work elsewhere. Was Buddy Rich the best jazz drummer ever? For his type of jazz, yes, absolutely.
I agree. Buddy Rich had the best and fastest solos. Buddy is the Great Ninja of drums and there are none that can touch him in what he did. That said, from a musical perspective, I'll take Krupa playing Sing Sing Sing over any song Buddy was on.
I gave you a thumbs up and your comment was accurate except for the years Buddy was not with a Big Band. He played with all the jazz greats in a small group context with the Jazz at the Philharmonic tours for years. The battles between Rich, Roach and Krupa were legendary along with his creative jazz playing with Bird and so many other jazz greats. Check it out. Thanks Schreff
Great video, Nate. But I need to push back a little. Yes, the Tonight Show was great exposure for Buddy, but to call him a “minor player”?. Have you checked out his discography? Buddy backed every giant of his era - Charlie Parker, Sinatra, Miles, Basie, Ella, Oscar Peterson, Sammy Davis Jr...the list goes on and on. Mel Torme said nobody had a deeper pocket than Buddy. I’m not sure how else you define greatness. And by the way, why isn’t Joe Morello on your list ?
This was a list of players not on a top 50 list that we should no of. That play jazz in a true jazz way. That are really good at what they do. Who are not known for playing solos on the tonight show named buddy. That’s my take.
I believe what Nate is saying is Buddy was not an innovator of jazz drumming. There wasn't a before and after in jazz drumming with Buddy. With Elvin there definitely was, Roach etc. I think there was a before and after with Buddies chops... certainly Tony Williams and countless others were influenced by this aspect of his playing. I think Nate is doing a great service to get us out of the past and into the present with his list. It's a shame to miss out on greatness happening right now. I love jazz but I know so few on his list 😟
@@lucianolombardi1022 You can hype today’s musicians without tearing down the greats of the past. This is clickbait bullshit using the fame of Buddy’s name to draw eyes.
Great comment, thanks. Yes, imho, this was 80% a hit job on Buddy and 20% a contribution to the present day greats of jazz drumming. The 80/20 man was showed his ignorance of the true Buddy it is pathetic. He failed to even mention the greats you did and also the JATP tour. I studied with Joe Morello and when you don't mention him as a jazz drummer you show that your research is flawed.
You wanna know who the best jazz drummer is? Clearly its: Elvin Jones, Tony Williams, Roy Haynes, Max Roach, Kenny Clarke, Sonny Payne, Art Taylor, Art Blakey, Jimmy Cobb, Philly Joe Jones, Billy Hart, Jack Dejohnette, Shelly Manne, Buddy Rich, Louis Bellson, Joe Chambers, Ben riley, Donald Bailey, Pete La Roca, Kenny Washington, Eric Harland, Peter Erskine, Chester Thompson, Omar Hakim, Brian Blade, Jeff 'Tain' Watts, Justin Faulkner, Kendrick Scott, Greg Hutchinson, Lenny White
As someone who love Nate Smith and Hutchinson as well as Buddy and Bonham, I think you are seeing half the picture. When I was on Cruise ships we had those we called Jazz Nazis. As an MD I had to fire a few. Mainly for playing a Sinatra like it was be bop. What Buddy did, was popularize a style, and act as an intro to the world of Jazz. As a young man , into the likes of Bonham, Buddy led me to Tony Williams , then Max, and later Bill Stewart and Hutchinson. In that sense Buddy served a valuable purpose. Anyway I still make most of my career in the Rock genre, but I yet my opinion has I think some validity.
Buddy may have had a " minor " impact on " traditional " or some may call it " real jazz "....but.... Buddy, for most of his life played in Big Bands. ( As a " sideman " as well in his own Big Bands ). Why ? Because he loved it.....but there is no doubt in my mind that he could have played in a so called " traditional jazz band / setting " ( wich he,..by the way.. even did on a few occasions ) as well as he did in the Big Bands he played. Listen to what Jojo Mayer has to say about Buddy's proficiency compared to that of a Vladimir Horowitz: th-cam.com/video/R2a712M5SJE/w-d-xo.html ......and I'm totaly with Jojo. (not saying that the " new breed " of jazz drummers isn't great.....but Buddy was so different and outstanding....and yes, I know he couldn't read music....but who cares/cared ? He always... delivered and the older he became, the better he became. )
I checked out the Jo Jo Mayer video. As soon as he said Buddy Rich was Schlock I turned it off: (One minute 14 seconds in) th-cam.com/video/R2a712M5SJE/w-d-xo.html) Oh, he was speaking German? My bad...
@@citydrums7525 The language Jojo speaks in this interview is his mother tongue and it's called " Switzerdütsch ". You understand it when you speak " regular " german but it's not just a german accent, it's a language of it's own. ( In Switzerland there are two main languages, french and switzerdütsch. Depends on where you live in Switzerland.) Oh, and by the way....the video offers subtitles in english.✌🏽
This list is such a well needed breath of fresh air, thank you! Anyone making the rounds the past thirty years in NYC jazz clubs would agree. Three drummers I'd add, and love to see you feature, are Joey Baron, Jim Black and Tom Rainey.
Just another fact here BUDDY RICH has influenced and will continue to influence many hundreds of thousands if not millions of drummers over the years and in years to come More, much more than all these guys put together ever will! .... just say’n!
I think you nailed this honestly. I do think there is a pretty big difference between buddy and these guys simply because you only ever heard buddy play in a big band, where as these guys are all playing in smaller combos and with a more modern flavor. Buddy was great for his time and as a big band drummer.
Buddy played as good in a small group context with Bird etc. Please check out JATP and you will see there were years of Buddy you missed when he was doing small group work.
I appreciate your brave! It's difficult on TH-cam to say something on a famous musician because most people idolize that figure and go against who's speaking. Recently I add stats to a Buddy Rich drum solo in my channel and at the end I said nowadays there are "drummers as good as Buddy Rich". Just for this sentence many people attacked me in the comments.
1 drummer I think of as one of the best educators of jazz drumming is Allan Dawson. My drum teacher told me a story that Allan Dawson told him in the 70's. He opened for Buddy and Buddy told him after the set, "Hey that was some hip shit with the hi hat." During Buddy's set Allan said he was using my concept as if it was his. He was knocked out by Buddy's way of being able to do anything he heard and copy it and use it musically. I like the drummers you mentioned that I don't know about. Thanks for feeding my appetite for something new. Once you find Jazz and actually get it on an emotional level. Then the technical stuff becomes easier to digest. At least that's what I found. Everything I learned with Allan Dawson exercises reading Ted Reed's Syncopation. Years later I started feeling jazz emotionally and wanting to listen to more. My playing got so much better. I wasted years on chops and rudiments giving myself tendonitis. Arthritis doesn't help either. I talk too much. I appreciate your point of view. Jazz is so minimized by the media.
It seems to me that it always boils down to what it is that you are looking for when you listen to someone. If you are all about fast hands and chops, chances are Buddy will be #1 on your list. I was lucky enough to enjoy a conversation with some heavy jazz players in NYC at a jam session and I was shocked when they mention a drummer listed on this video who from their perspective "didn't´ swing". My drum hero Elvin Jones talked about dealing with criticism from people that didn't understand his playing. If Elvin can´t please everybody, nobody can.
Ethan Iverson said he's met folk on the NYC jazz scene who thought Paul Motian couldn't play drums. Now while his approach was/is unusual, those doubters only had to go back to when PM drummed for Bill Evans to see the man was legit, and then some!
Any 'best' conversion is dumb, but the backlash has gone so far in the other direction that it's worth saying that BR was a unique voice, musical, and totally fun to watch & listen to. Also capable of being super tasteful in small group settings, like the Ella & Louis record. Sure he was an asshole and an evolutionary dead-end in jazz drumming, but that doesn't mean he didn't make some great records or isn't worth listening to.
@@8020drummer Idk, I don't look at lists of the best drummers. :) But I'm sure any media outlet making a list like this is going to have a lot of boring received wisdom and Boomer picks. I'm all for updating the canon and for people knowing about Nasheet Waits & Clarence Penn (and Whiplash sucks), but apparently I'm in the hipster drummer echo chamber and not seeing whoever is still ranking jazz musicians.
@@mahavashkar4677 Because he would berate his band after a bad show, as recorded on tape by one of his members. He also rubbed many up the wrong way including Dusty Sprinfield and his long time friend Frank Sinatra, who was just as much an asshole as Buddy if not more.
Thanks for your videos!! I think BR is a very important figure in jazz- not NEARLY as important as Louis Armstrong or Charlie Parker, Gene Krupa, Coltrane, etc. - but the big bands he led made some important music and hired some of the best arrangers/composers - and provided great opportunities for some younger musicians (Bobby Shew and Bob Mintzer - for ex.) His personality (both good and bad aspects) were memorable. His playing had some pretty jaw dropping technique. But I would listen to hours and hours of SO MANY other players before I would listen to him. That said, a lot of people were really drawn to his showmanship and technique/chops and he will hold a high place in their view for ever. He also was an important influence on many drummers who heard him- Weckl and Colaiuta (and many others) cite him as an influence. But start listing off the most influential jazz MUSIC ever (Think Coltrane albums, Miles albums, etc) and He will not appear very much.... Billy Higgins will show up quite a bit- along w Tony, Elvin, Max, Mel Lewis, Papa Jo, Sonny Payne, etc... even Bill Stewart, and the "younger" generation, which you give great examples of in this video. Keep it up! I enjoy your work!
Miles affirmed it. Yet, it's quite obvious Tony was a blatant game changer in jazz drumming---similar to Hendrix on guitar. Tony Williams was brilliant with his hi-hats, cymbals and sparkling musicality---within the song (PINNOCHIO)---and very conceptual soloing. Some times it seems people downplay his 1975 LP Believe it! Yet, if you listen carefully, he puts on a clinic on that LP. During the early 90's he led a high quality quintet that produced about 5 wonderful LP's that showcased his wonderful compositions as well. All props to Buddy Rich---The Mike Tyson of Jazz Drumming.
@@stevelk1329 I'm sure Miles appreciated all of his great band mates. But, I've found more than one quote where he goes out his way, to exalt Mr. Williams as a Superior Artist/Musician.
@@mahavashkar4677 Not positive, not a big deal. Just remember reading a couple places he'd said this. Can't remember if I read a quote from him saying that. I do remember reading Davis saying he knew Williams was going to be one of the baddest ... drummers ever the first time he heard him 🙂
@@vb6427 no I didn’t. I just love joe morello that’s all. Totally random answer. Not pretending to answer Nate are any other of you brilliant smart guys.
YES! Always makes me sad he gets left off great drummers lists. I guess his style isn't flashy enough, but that is why he stands out for me- he serves the song, not his ego.
Thanks for another awesome video Nate! Once again you tackle a subject that most You tube guys wouldn't even think of. I always look forward to your material! 🥁❤
It’s funny because I think most laypersons think of Buddy as a jazz drummer but I always thought of him as a big band drummer. His chops (and attitude) transcended all styles but he never strayed far from that genre. He use to say if you’re a drummer you play all styles but whenever he played another style he played it as a big band player. I always thought of big band as a subs type of jazz. Nonetheless Buddy deserves recognition. How many great jazz(and rock) drummers did he inspire?!
When I started playing Drums in High School, I was heavy on Buddy due to his influence on Neil Peart. I figured Buddy was the pinnacle of Jazz representation. Once I got into college, started playing stuff from Tony Williams, Philly Joe and Max Roach, I kind of realized how much of an outlier Buddy was from Jazz drumming’a history as it evolved from the 40’s to the 70’s and into Fusion. He was a fantastic drummer, but he isn’t an Elvin Jones, Philly Joe, Max Roach, Art Blakey or Tony Williams.
Funny how the next video in the auto play cue is of Buddy Rich on the Tonight Show. Maybe instead of shaming people for not knowing these drummers over the more commonly known pros from the past you could just call this an introduction to the modern greats who deserve to be known.
Love Buddy Rich and his technical skills were insane, but he isn't all that musical compared to other great drummers, so it depends on what you are looking for. Switching genre to make a point, Ringo Starr is the exact opposite, not particularly gifted technically but he played drums like a musician, very few like him.
Great comment. A few days ago i saw this vídeo: "Deconstruing Something (Isoleted Tracks) - th-cam.com/video/uuj-rdatHHs/w-d-xo.html" ... it's awsome for its simplicity. Most of the song he didn't uses the hihats or ride, only snare and bass drum. The music wins.
@@YeahNego Then add how often the drum is enough to identify the Beatles song. Recently learned that one of his "secrets" was being a lefty playing a righty drum kit, he was always a smidgen late because he had to go further with his left hand. Take a look at this , she is amazing in her own right.
I disagree. Buddy certainly was musical. No one before him made the whole band better the way he did. He wasn't all bombast. He pushed the band. You can hear the difference even on the Tonight Show (sometimes), when he'd play with the band. Shaughnessy was one of the best big band drummers, and it was his band. Yet, even as a kid I could hear the difference when buddy sat in. The song came alive, more excitement, more integration between the drums and horns - somehow, even though he was playing lots of notes - more musical. He really could hear the band and respond in a brilliant way. The solos were good, sometimes spectacular, yes, but his playing with the band. That was his musical genius IMO.
I don't know why your generaton of drummers equates Buddy Rich with being on the Carson Show? He had a decades long career before he started appearing on the Tonight Show. He was a child prodigy in vaudville. He was a featured drummer beginning in the late 30's. He was a highly respected professional throughout the 40s, 50s, and 60s. That was why he appeared on the Tonight Show, because he was a legend. He didn't become a legend because of the Tonight Show. Yes, there have been brilliant drummers since Buddy. Each era has its major contributers. The history of the instrument is important. As is the social function of the music. In the big band era, music was as much for dancing as it was for listening. There is something important about the community of dancers and musicians. That has been lost in jazz. Part of why Buddy was / is important is that he knew how to get people on the dance floor and keep them there. That was something that was special about the drummers of that era, Chick Webb, Big Sid, Krupa, and the woefully underappreciated Davey Tough.
There are many many great jazz drummers...they all had something else to offer. Buddy was one of them.and let's not forget he was a pioneer. Plus buddy's technical prowess was way ahead of his time.
@@applejuice5635 Sorry I took it wrong. He pioneered in so many ways from " Traps the Drum Wonder " as a child star to the acknowledged greatest during his time by his fellow drummers, bandleaders and the public. Gene Krupa who brought the drums to the front of the band instead of being a 2nd class player agreed as did all during the Rich era. BR was and still is a legend and pioneer in the big band era and the top drum soloist ever imho.
I disagree with Nate all of the time. In this particular case I happen to agree, Buddy Rich was an amazing technician, and flawless big band legend. He was also abusive, tyrannical and really didn't move on past the big band era. All of you old cats can get as mad as you want, but today's players have taken the musicality of yesterday's greats and evolved it into a new dimension. Is this a better dimension? is it more musical? it's fucking jazz dude. People have been disagreeing over the definition of the genre for the entirety of it's existence. If you're an old or "old-school" cat, please understand that your anger is part of the tradition. I thank you for your participation.
Seth Cashman : an innovator is one who sets new standards for everyone else to follow unfortunately the standards buddy rich set no one has yet been able to follow certainly not these guys in this video! These So-called “Young Guns” And please by all means thank you for your participation!
No anger involved......just love of the music. Buddy was not a nice guy. No doubt. What was a old man, nearly 50, to do? He played his music.....when many thought it was dead. You now have great musical programs in college and high schools. There’s a reason for that. I would guess that some of the new cats discussed here benefitted from them....there are some truly great players out there. The deal is that many drummers did not survive, or could not make the transition from ‘swing’ to an 8th note feel. I’m so old I’m surprised I can remember this stuff or complete this sentence. When young, I did not, could not, appreciate what and who had gone before. But now that I’m old and angry......with an open mind......it ain’t so hard.
Yeah, of course, he didn't reinvented himself or progressed to new pathways. But intead, he perfected his playing style to a pretty high standart. He's one of the old guard "snare drummers" who expand their vocabulary over the drum set. And my personal opinion, he sets the energy standart for the rock drumming generation. Sweatin like buddy, should be a standart term for a metal show these days 🤣 But as far as jazz evolved, i mean, as long as you play the swing pattern, nothing really evolved 😶 but who cares, as long as it is fun, it's worth it. By the way, i thought, to invent new styles, you have to break with the tradition? Kind of rebelling against the conservative standart, like bop did back then?! Art should be surprising right? So then, Check out Christian Lillinger!!!! th-cam.com/video/1_jOHpHwGoo/w-d-xo.html
Joe Morello was a hired gun so he had to play within a set of rules. Buddy Rich had his own band so he could play drums, which is a fine thing to do if that's what you want.
@@legacyShredder1 Good point. Joe was one of my teachers and had told me many times about how he had to hold back with Brubeck. Brubeck was open to Joe's playing style fully but Paul Desmond keep saying that Joe was playing too loud. Some of Joe's best work was done after Brubeck when he had more freedom and he was amazing at drum clinics prior to his lifelong health issues becoming worse as time went by.
Buddy got all kinds of press, played very cleanly, and had some chops, but had little to no impact on jazz or other jazz players. That's what made ”Whiplash” so weird to me, he obsessed over Rich even though many players from his time, such as Kruppa, had way more influence on jazz. No hate towards him, but there are tons more players (better and worse than him) that had more importance to jazz and would be much more worth will to check out. This is of course subscribing to the idea that it matters who is best, but no matter how you feel about the argument younger players need to know Buddy Rich isn't number one.
B Burnside: OK it’s obvious you’re not a true believer in so far as Buddy Rich is concerned, sounds like to me you can take him or leave him and that’s OK that’s fine you’re entitled to your taste your preferences your opinions but dismiss BUDDY like that makes me wonder if you really really ever listen to the guy maybe you did maybe you didn’t I don’t know I’m not gonna say all I know is as far as as I’m concerned and we can agree to disagree BUDDY RICH was the greatest drummer ever to draw breath no matter what kind Music we’re talking about and who’s to say; who’s to pigeonhole jazz that way? I mean you’re really short changing the concept of jazz when you played The stuff, like this guy has done on this video this seemingly one type of jazz Presented here! When there’s so many different types of jazz there’s many different types of jazz, Like fruits and vegetables there are so many tastes! Same with music: there’s big band jazz which was Buddy’s forte, there is progressive jazz, there’s straightahead jazz, there’s bebop, there’s Dixieland jazz,There’s swing jazz, there’s avant-garde jazz and so many more genres of jazz! seems to me like the guys in this video; seem to be all playing in that one groove, that one feel that one sound the fact that this guy who posted this video and I’m sure he knows what he’s doing as far as DRUMS are concerned ???!!!!I’m sure he’s a great player but to put an “X” over Buddy’s Image, It’s frankly to me very telling where his heads at; to me....very condescending to Buddy in his description of him he just dismisses Buddy Like that and that’s his right he has a right to his opinion, but again Iwill just have to agree to disagree but if I could play like any single drummer in the world if I had my choice Of anyone in any genre, my pick, it would be BUDDY RICH every freaking time! any thoughts?!
Rich was a big band drummer. In that idiom, top 5 no question. And not just because of chops. Not even mostly because of chops. He really pushed the band. He listened and knew how to raise excitement. And he did (in the 40s), along with his hands, have lots of bass drum chops and was good with his brushes. But his forte (so to speak) was with large groups - lots of horns. Some of his solos were very good but many of them were just rudiments on top of rudiments. But nothing like the best jazz players can do. Roach showed us that.. But geez, he didn't even like to play Bebop. He was either unwilling or unable to play Bebop, IMO, well. So how could he be in the top ranks of those drummers, who I feel mix well with what one might call more generic "jazz" drummers? He doesn't. Thanks for the playlist.
I know in recent years he was a featured meinl artist and even got on the cover of modern drummer, but I feel like Ralph Peterson isn't talked about enough. The dude is a monster. Great video Nate!
He is talked about all the drummers Nate mentioned Ralph has taught at least 50% of ari hoeing, mark turner jr. Chris brown, tyshawn sory, and to many more to name
I studied with Victor Lewis and Kenny Washington when they were in Australia for a week long clinic at the Conservatorium in Sydney , they were wonderful guys, great teachers and great true Jazz drummers. Also Jan Christensen was there and he was definitely one of a kind.
just like this guy here, everyone will have their opinion- i think the problem is that this yes or no judgement is focusing on jazz- the real question is- is buddy the greatest artist to play a set of drums? - i have listened to pretty much all of the drummers that have been mentioned here(early history through todays drummers-and yes- various styles )- there are many unbelievably talented drummers ( technical and soulful) that have blessed us-but there is a level of overall mastery that buddy possessed that i never heard any other drummer equal - god bless freedom of speech and opinion!
Buddy is unique in that he was a huge celebrity. He also had a shtick that added to his fame. He went from being an innovator in the 40's to still a mainstream act into the 80's. And oh yeah, he was also a monster. Insane power, speed, facility and command of the instrument. Sure, by 1980 or so, styles were changing and Buddy remained in that old school style, but to say his contribution to jazz was "minor" is nothing short of ignorance.
Kudos for Jorge Rossi. SERIOUSLY one of the most underrated drummers ever! I have some other thoughts on your picks that I want to think about a bit more. But Jorge is the shit.
Buddy not influential? You and Adam are missing the fact that Buddy single handedly (literary) saved big band jazz when he formed his group in late 60s. No one was such powerhouse in big bands like him and we can be glad for that. And with that TV show thing, milions of people saw this way jazz as interresting artform in 70s when totaly new sound was popular and on radio. Ten thousands of drummers picked sticks after seeing Buddy play. Including me and I’m 24 so it coud be any of those new drumers drummer you talking about. But it wasn’t. It was Buddy Rich.
You're absolutely right about Buddy Rich, he was not influential and did not create a new style. The only thing you probably misunderstand about Buddy is that despite is association with show biz, which contributed to his reputation, he could really play like hell ! He was, simply put, a drum prodigy. I saw him live 3 times and can testify to the fact that during his solos our collective jaws, "dropped to the floor" and you could literally hear people in the audience say ,"oh my God." Buddy would literally bring the house down every time and got a standing ovation. I would tell you that most videos on TH-cam as good as they may be, do not do him justice. The drummers you recommend are great and interesting though. Thanks for the share!
You're absolutely right about Buddy Rich, he had more chops than his country's collective barbecues on the 4th of July. The only thing you probably misunderstand is what "literally" means.
@@dvdly Buddy was life and death "blow your brains out" drumming every time. He did have a style, but it was not imitated by anyone: it was the "Drum as if your life depends on it" and play the most impressive logic-defying stuff you can so as to leave everybody in shock and awe after a performance kind of style ! So he was influential after all , If you look at it from that aspect...
Haven't been able to watch yet, but jazz has a lot of subgenres. So it's tough to name one best jazz drummer. Buddy Rich is probably not the best bebop drummer, for example, but I think of him as the undisputed G.O.A.T. of big band.
It different types of Jazz but Buddy was a def a pioneer in the Jazz world, Buddy was more on big band type jazz which is really live honestly tbh with Buddy’s style that’s pretty much what was the big thing. But what made Buddy like amazing is his techniques and his ability to pull out the unknown, that hi-hat trick plus his creativity when play it inspired a lot of drummers today, but I can agree it’s many great jazz drummer shush as talented as Buddy but, also too it’s many types of styles of jazz and everyone has their specialty, and when playing with band style you gotta bring it
Cause playing a lot of big band Buddy knew how to accent those hits he played with the band and not against still with energy, but it’s hood to look at many Jazz drummers case Sammy Davis and actually played too which he was really good...
Kenny Clarke for me , even had pleasure of a lesson with him on timekeeping back in the early 70’s , however no complaints with names others have put forward but Buddy Rich definitely one of the greatest Big Band drummers but not necessarily best Jazz Drummer.
So happy someone finally is giving Nasheet his due. I used to see him with Antonio Hart back in the 90s and he blew me away. Because of him i felt inspired to go check out some of his contemporaries like Hutch, Harland and Blade. One cat left off the list that comes right out of "the tradition" but is playing his balls off is Joe Farnsworth. Recently rediscovered by me I cant wait for this pandemic to end because he's going to be the first cat i go see play.
Nice list. A couple of whom I need to dive deeper on. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t care about making anyone’s list, but I really dig Herlin Riley’s playing, especially on Wynton’s Sunflowers.
@@8020drummer Herlin is low key beast. I'm also kinda surprised that Ed Thigpen didn't come up on your list. His brush work is some of the best in all of jazz. Another sleeper is Bob Moses who doesn't get enough love.
I don’t know why Buddy was even brought up in this video. He was from the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s, but made a resurgence in the 60’s and put his big band in the limelight again. That was a remarkable feat, and modernized big band drumming until it finally gasped it’s last breath. No one then, and no one now could do what he did in that setting, and his influence was pervasive. He never was a small combo player, even when he was with Charlie Parker, it was always with big band’s.
Unfortunately, it is apparent the 80/20 guy can't stand Buddy Rich and had to add him so that his video would receive more attention and plays. Not very professional and filled with much misinformation and either lazy or lack of research.
Maybe you could have titled this video...10 drummers you gotta know.. I bet in 1950 the guys coming up were saying was Chick Webb really the best ever? Like debating who's the best ever in baseball, it becomes a generational question. Styles change. My go-to guy will always be Joe Morello...but us old guys are thick headed. Suggestion, how playing has evolved. Nevertheless always excellent work.
Agreed. This is a great list, but we all know how subjective it all is. "The Best" isn't something we can easily quantify. There are too many variables.
It's telling that all those Buddy Rich tribute concerts 30 years ago were either non-jazz or fusion drummers participating. I agree Buddy's imprint was not in jazz per se, he was more an influential example of how a musician can push oneself in technical accomplishment, and how to put oneself out there in the public as an *interesting performer* to a wider than niche audience.
Good video on jazz drumming greats, but a hard subject to quantify!! They're will always be BIAS- for or against certain drummers, but if you minus personality/ character flaws, and just look at overall skill, the list can be more accurate. It would be better to brake it up in historical timeframes/jazz styles etc., because music changes- and jazz has evolved- and expanded!! You seem to dislike Buddy Rich somewhat- he was a flawed person- but an extremely dedicated jazz drummer- and dedicated to trap drumming artistry- all you have to do is see his concert video's on U- TUBE etc.- on one he is wearing a suit, Amazzing left hand, and had a heart attack, while giving an amazing solo!! Personally he is not my favorite drummer, I have seen him in concert a long time ago- but it is hard not too respect his extreme skill, and dedication to his art form- jazz/big band drumming! Why people think he is the arguably the greatest, is because of his soloing mainly- he is a precision machine- that is creative as well. I don't like long solo's personally, they can get boring, but he does about everything thing on a lot you can do!!
Baker did a lot of great jazz recordings and played with great jazz players in his day. Seriously was forced into rock n roll because of the loud amplifiers and the drugs. Great musician nonetheless.
All those great jazz drummers you mentioned studied Buddy Rich at some point, maybe the influence in terms of the way Buddy swung using 24" kick 2 and 4 on the hi hat only is dated, but his contribution to the evolution of the instrument is absolutely important. I met a young drummer who told me Steve Gadd sucks comparing him to Tony Roster and Chris Coleman's, I told him there was a time when Gadd was the most technical drummer of all time. In 2035 drummers will make fun of how basic Thomas Origen was in 2012....and you will defend him...
I probably shouldn't even stick my nose in here because I'm a bass player, not a drummer, and I also have hometown bias being from Minneapolis, but I really feel like Dave King belongs in here. He stuns and delights me every time I hear him play.
I enjoy your videos and appreciate you introducing us to cats we may not know of. BUT. Why did I click? Why have I studied drums all these years? Why do I love jazz at all? How can I truly appreciate what these great players are doing? You got it....Buddy! He did his thing, left his legacy, and we are still talking about him, as we are Babe Ruth. I still get a thrill hearing him interpret those charts. Don’t mean I can’t love the greatness and creativity, the passion and groove of the others. There’s a reason I can, BR. We all “March to the beat of a different drummer “.....we all members of the same club. We just like some members more than others.
Very much enjoyed your video & was thrilled to see many of the cats I know from Smalls Jazz Club getting some love, especially Clarence Penn, Ari Hoenig & Justin Brown Three drummers that are fantastic that would be on my list are: Johnathan Blake (my favorite) Justin Faulkner Eric McPherson
I went to jazz school with Ari and not only was he a badass back then (the mid-1990s), he is an incredible human being. I doubt he remembers me, but he made an impression on me
I feel like buddy rich is like the most overrated AND underrated drummer of all time lol. He’s overrated among non-jazz musicians who have been told he’s the greatest of all time (and all the stuff you say in this video). He’s underrated among a lot of jazz musicians who think he only did cheesy big band showboating and forget that he played on a some great small group records in the 50s. Great video, and great list of the real cats!
I think it's both sad an hilarious when someone tries to diminish Buddy's impact on Jazz. When he started, no one was doing what he was doing. No one. No one had his chops, or his drive, or his energy. He elevated every band he played for. Harry James had to commission new charts to keep Buddy happy because Buddy didn't want to play the Jazz/Pop/Dance music that Harry James was often known for. Buddy helped elevate Artie Shaw's band, and pushed Jimmy Dorsey to commission new, hipper, jazzier charts to satisfy him. And with his own band, there was not a single Big Band that could come close to how tight and powerful Buddy's band was. Buddy did other things, too, with smaller bands, and experimented quite a bit over the years. A ton of Jazz drummers were influenced by him. Dave Weckl comes to mind as an example. You don't know what it was like in the late 30's and throughout the 40's when Buddy came on the scene. He was a whirlwind - a hurricane that devastated the landscape and forced a change. He modernized Jazz with his approach. Jazz isn't just one style, and modern Jazz is fine, but listen to Buddy's stuff from the 70's. Amazing albums. And his drumming propelled everything. Oh, I was fortunate enough to see Buddy play live multiple times in the late 70's and early to mid 80's. He blew my mind. He played things that didn't seem humanly possible.
Thank you for making this point. Buddy was so good and as a technician, unmatched. But that gets translated to mean "the best drummer ever, in every conceivable way" by so many people. Offer up the opinion "other drummers were more creative" and hear the response "Buddy was creative"; or try suggesting he wasn't that subtle and you get sent to a youtube clip of him being subtle, once. We need to have sensible converstaions about Buddy, about what he brought and about what he didn't bring - outside of the fact he was an asshole which, is basically irrelevant in terms of his musical legacy
As a drummer, I did enjoy your video and can appreciate a top drummer regardless of his popularity on a list. Your video was enlightening and worth the watch. Thank You
@@Highenddude4179 Wow. I'm jealous. I first heard him on Mal Waldron's The Quest album and made it a point to buy anything I could find with him on it.
Glad you included the aqesome Bill Stewart but you forgot Antonio Sanchez. Antonio is a true jazz master true 4 limb independence. Ageeeld w you about Buddy Rich. Glad someone made this video.
To be fair, Rich was not only showbiz drummer, he played on a lots of great records from Charlie Parker to Louis Armstrong. He recorded duets with Max Roach etc. But yes, he is not that influental anymore.
@george nolte well said George, when Stefan wrote "to be fair" in his post he was the wrong side of the truth! his statement was in fact a bias opinion!
@george nolte "they live on forever . So does their influence " Well... It does not. I teach literature and if You look at what people read in the past, a lot of the most beloved writers of the time are forgotten now. Rich was great bigband drummer, top 10 easily. But most of todays advanced drummers seek for inspiration elsewhere.
@george nolte Well, I dont want to enter the debate about jazz canon, but You contradict yoursef. I said, that the most popular artist of the time dont have to be so lasting or influental. You spit on me the cannonical figures. I love them all. But there are many musicians, that were at least as popular as them and are non cannonical figures now. Maynard Ferguson made more hits than any of the great jazz players and his band is not considered so influental. Paul Whiteman was once the embodiment of jazz. Now compare his legacy to Ellington.
I think Buddy gets a raw deal out of this video, as he does in that Adam Neely video. Summing him up as just having great chops and was a bit of a dick, that's quite a disservice. Not to come across as some Buddy Rich Fan Club, but there was more to him than just the bus tapes and appearing on The Tonight Show. It's like describing Jimi Hendrix as that guitarist who played loud and set his guitar on fire. I agree that he is not the be-all-and-end-all of jazz drumming (especially since he was pretty much exclusively a swing big band drummer, although he did some nice bebop stuff with Charlie Parker), but comparing the music Buddy played with the music that, say, Elvin Jones played, is comparing apples and oranges; only it feels that one's supposed to be inferior to the other. I love both Buddy and Elvin, and Tony, and Eric Harland, and all the other guys I have heard of in the "Top 10" and in the list near the end of the video. Neither is superior to the other. They're all great in their way. Also, why no mention of Gene Krupa, Joe Morello or Billy Higgins?
Ouch! I feel like I just got told I suck for having been sent here from a Buddy Rich video. Nate, you shared a whole lot of new names for me, thanks. Now, instead of getting told off, could I have had a Spotify or similar playlist to help get into modern jazz drumming legends? I fear just posing this question will trigger a rant about sub-par bitrates, and if i’m serious about jazz drumming, I should buy a ticket to New York and be in the same room as these heroes, and anything else is just a big fat insult to the craft that is jazz drumming. Loved the video by the way!
So true, and the pity is the 80/20 guy destroyed all the good on the new greats by attacking one of the old ones who is a legend-Buddy Rich. His lack of research was very disappointing when it comes to not going back and treating jazz drumming from before Chick Webb up to the present. And your comment about rants is right on like your playing.
Buddy is to me the best drummer by far. I started drums as a child. Buddy gave till his heart went out. He had an attack during this solo. No. There’s no one who play like Rch. He just owned everything he did. I don’t understand. Are these clips supposed to make me forget him. Cobham was another who I love. Saw him in 72. And just killed it. Anyway this is always great. th-cam.com/video/9esWG6A6g-k/w-d-xo.html
Modern being the operative word here. Buddy was not just some weird sideshow doing television shows. All the greats of his day knew who Buddy was, and went to see his shows. Now it’s popular to dismiss him, and sure, that diminishes his impact on modern (jazz) drumming, in addition to the drum-driven big band style not really being fashionable. But Buddy was not just some guy with chops, he had a great sense of rythm, time and feel. Like, I’m sure he’d have been great on some of the best bebop albums, but who in their right mind would put buddy on a hard bop album or something? Granted, today he’s mostly known for his solos and chops, and his flamboyant style would be out of place in most modern jazz, but let’s not forget the wonderful drumming he was actually known for in his day (it’s a shame if he’s dismissed as some chopper after watching a couple of solos on TH-cam). That said, I do respect the idea of turning people on to other, just as wonderful, drummers who are much more influential on modern jazz styles.
Thank you for this video brother. As a songwriter and jazz drummer enthusiast I have a lot more studying to do. I noticed that popular singers were once drummers i.e. Chaka Khan, Phil Collins, Teddy Pendergrass, Jeffrey Osbourne, Maurice White founder of Earth, Wind, & Fire, etc.
Looks like I've kicked the hornet's nest. Few caveats:
1. As I say in the lesson, I'm not claiming Buddy wasn't skilled. Only that his influence on the jazz idiom is overstated. That doesn't mean I don't think he's great
2. I'm a big proponent of stating "hard to swallow" opinions from time-to-time. I hate to see anybody go, but if some people unsubscribe because I've offended them, some people subscribe because they agree with me and respect me for saying what I think, and still more people subscribe because they *disagree* but still respect me for saying what I think, that's a net I can live with.
3. I'm not saying Buddy wasn't great ;)
Have your today's drummers tighten up the bottom and top heads of their snare drums, then tell me what they sound like.
Nate, Your opinion is at best uninformed, and, at worst, small-minded. This is not where you want to be, if you hold yourself out as an educator. THE thing all musicians aspire to, particularly in jazz, is a spontaneous, seamflow of of honest, compelling expression that touches the hearts of listeners. Buddy emoted as well as anybody, and exponentially better than most. To be a technical genius and emote is the most difficult needle to thread because the two often cut against each other. Plus, he did it in a style of jazz, big band, that requires far more discipline than playing in smaller groups, which again makes it harder to keep the flow, swing, and improvisation going. He caught, and accentuated every note his band was playing to the maximum without ever getting in the way of any of his players, always maximizing the potential of the music. Most drummers max out quickly doing a drum solo because they lack either the chops, or the ability to tell a story in their solo to hold the audience's attention. Buddy could mesmerize an audience for as long as he wanted to. He could jump in the audience's lap with fun loving over the top performance, or become one with his instrument, as if the the audience didn't exit. It was gripping either way. Plus, he played with total passion, and commitment to the art form. Moreover, he held his ground, and played what he wanted to play, when the world said big band was dead.He reinvented big band jazz, and made it relevant as form of music to listen too, not merely dance to. That's a true artist. Buddy's influence on drumming is to hit the pinnacle of emotion, and communication with every note you play. Your opinion compares apples to oranges. You seem to like the more quirky, small group jazz people. It's an entirely different style than big band, although, many of the greats there played with Buddy and loved him. Nothing wrong with the drummers you mentioned. I love everybody who is attempting to move the art form forward. Your fatal mistake was condemning Buddy to create clickbait. Why not say, we're all familiar with Buddy's genius, but are are some super drummers who deserve our respect too? Moreover, it's really soulless to personally attack a deceased human being's character. Clearly, you didn't know Buddy. He was loved by most who knew him. He was generous beyond words, and a wonderful husband, and father. Sure, he had his bus tapes, that he himself loved, and laughed at. He had a sense of humor about his own drive to create the best music possible for every person who paid their hard earned cash to see a great show. My suggestion is really own your multiple mistakes here, and make them right. True that, nobody can teach a drummer to play like Buddy, but you should do a video to talk about what made him great. And you might learn something of the man, and share some of the great things he did for others. Buddy's not here to defend himself. Play fair. As it is, you look so ignorant, it throws into question your credibility as a teacher. It's never too late to learn, and make things right for a true educator. Long live, the late, great Buddy Rich.
Nate has a point and he does not attack the man at all, chill out man. I would be much more critical.
Buddy was sure a hell of a drummer and his skills and chops are out of this world; still today when I see him perform I am flabergasted BUT most the music he played sucks. A fantastic entertainer as I politely say but music wise not interesting: Circus Music at its best.
@@THEKECHEXPERIENCE Nate said Buddy was, "kind of a dick." To me, that's a personal attack on the man.
@@Robert-ck7nm I think this is common knowledge ;)
Nate you should make a video on "drumming for non-drummers" where you explain how to understand drums for other musicians. imo ;)
@@X9523-z3v it's never easy to start learning anything! Good job on sticking w it though
Great idea!! I sent Adam Neely's "bass playing for guitarists" tutorial to my guitar player when we started our duo side project... It was an eye opener for him and we also share lots of musical education videos to one another... Even though he's not a drummer, he'll sit through a good lesson video just to get a grasp of what I go through in my head when playing with him. Sometimes it's just a drum lick he picks up and writes a guitar riff to fit around it and give me a break to do a fill along those lines... Same on my side when I learn about scales and modes and how they were applied in whatever songs and I use those as examples to tell him how a guitar solo could work within our context.... So yeah! Great idea! Do it!!!
@@G60syncro Yeah exactly Adam's video reminded me of this idea! I think it could be exciting for non-drummers, and it would definitely draw more ppl to this fantastic channel. Listen to the people, Nathan.
I agree...
buddy was not just the best jazz drummer, he was the best drummer ever, PERIOD!!!!!
not the best there is no such thing. but buddy made so many ppl pick up a pair of sticks. he was a power machine and his name is in the books for ever.
Anybody who loves Buddy should pay homage to his friend and extremely talented drummer (perhaps Buddy's equal), Louis Bellson. Buddy respected Louis so much that he had Mr. Bellson sit in for him when he once was too ill to make an extended tour.
Joe Morello (amongst classics), Jeff Hamilton, Jeff Tain Watts, Peter Erskine...
Yes, Morello, Hamilton and Erskine are tops. Don't forget Louie Bellson, the originator using the double bass drum in solos.
yes
Roy Burns
Gregory Hutchinson, Jimmy Cobb, Max Roach, Ed Thiggben, Greyson nekrutman
@@earthorigins3509 THESE WANNA BE KNOW ALL NOBODY'S DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO L0UIE BELLSON WAS. YOU CAN ALSO TELL IN THEIR PLAYING.
I spent my teens and twenties idolizing BR, and saw him in concert several times. At the time, I loved what his band was doing, and his chops can't be understated. (No really - they were NEVER understated. 😂) I knew he wasn't revolutionary or anything like that, and I also spent a lot of time listening to Max, Tony, Philly Joe, etc., but BR's band was really dynamic and fun to listen to. I have a really hard time listening to more modern jazz (and even some old bebop). You have a ton of clips here with some insanely great drumming, but I couldn't sit through any of these tunes. (That also may be why fusion drummers get more attention - because their music is more approachable.) I've really tried to listen to drummers when you suggest them, but I just haven't gotten used to the melodic/harmonic structure of modern jazz.
Here's why I think BR is on the top 10 lists (besides publisher laziness) - I noticed, when I came back into drumming in the late 90s, when I would read Modern Drummer, any given issue would have at least one interview where they mentioned BR as an influence, along with Keith Moon, John Bonham, etc. But 10 years after his death, drummers still talked about him. That's some serious influence. People remembered him.
And I always came away from a BR concert wanting to practice more.
Keep up the great videos! I learn a ton from your channel.
I agree with your assessment however, I will ascertain that but he was revolutionary when he came on the scene he was revolutionary and one is only revolutionary in the beginning and then becomes an excepted norm?! I don’t know but buddy will never be normal I mean his playing will always be anything but normal he was a freak of nature and a force of nature and I’ll leave it at that
I saw buddy live too and was completely blown away !!!!!! Buddy is my favorite drummer !!!!!!!
He was also one of the best bebop drummers. Had no trouble adapting, & proved it w/ countless bebop sessions, Including many w/ somebody he used to get into fights with, one Charlie Parker, who loved him!
Buddy Rich had other-worldly chops for sure, but what he did best was drive large bands with un-erring accuracy, propellant comping and incredibly original, musical and appropriate fills. He was the best ever in that regard. However, it was a niche and those skills don't translate to the myriad other musical styles in the world today. Just like Neal Peart, who always sounded like a fish out of water outside of the Rush context, Buddy's bombast didn't work elsewhere. Was Buddy Rich the best jazz drummer ever? For his type of jazz, yes, absolutely.
I agree. Buddy Rich had the best and fastest solos. Buddy is the Great Ninja of drums and there are none that can touch him in what he did. That said, from a musical perspective, I'll take Krupa playing Sing Sing Sing over any song Buddy was on.
I actually didn’t mind his music with Nat King Cole and Lester Young. He’s really
Holding back and it’s awesome
I gave you a thumbs up and your comment was accurate except for the years Buddy was not with a Big Band. He played with all the jazz greats in a small group context with the Jazz at the Philharmonic tours for years. The battles between Rich, Roach and Krupa were legendary along with his creative jazz playing with Bird and so many other jazz greats. Check it out. Thanks Schreff
Not even for his type of jazz
Great video, Nate. But I need to push back a little. Yes, the Tonight Show was great exposure for Buddy, but to call him a “minor player”?. Have you checked out his discography? Buddy backed every giant of his era - Charlie Parker, Sinatra, Miles, Basie, Ella, Oscar Peterson, Sammy Davis Jr...the list goes on and on. Mel Torme said nobody had a deeper pocket than Buddy. I’m not sure how else you define greatness. And by the way, why isn’t Joe Morello on your list ?
This was a list of players not on a top 50 list that we should no of. That play jazz in a true jazz way. That are really good at what they do. Who are not known for playing solos on the tonight show named buddy. That’s my take.
I believe what Nate is saying is Buddy was not an innovator of jazz drumming. There wasn't a before and after in jazz drumming with Buddy. With Elvin there definitely was, Roach etc. I think there was a before and after with Buddies chops... certainly Tony Williams and countless others were influenced by this aspect of his playing.
I think Nate is doing a great service to get us out of the past and into the present with his list. It's a shame to miss out on greatness happening right now. I love jazz but I know so few on his list 😟
@@lucianolombardi1022 You can hype today’s musicians without tearing down the greats of the past. This is clickbait bullshit using the fame of Buddy’s name to draw eyes.
Great comment, thanks. Yes, imho, this was 80% a hit job on Buddy and 20% a contribution to the present day greats of jazz drumming. The 80/20 man was showed his ignorance of the true Buddy it is pathetic. He failed to even mention the greats you did and also the JATP tour. I studied with Joe Morello and when you don't mention him as a jazz drummer you show that your research is flawed.
You wanna know who the best jazz drummer is? Clearly its: Elvin Jones, Tony Williams, Roy Haynes, Max Roach, Kenny Clarke, Sonny Payne, Art Taylor, Art Blakey, Jimmy Cobb, Philly Joe Jones, Billy Hart, Jack Dejohnette, Shelly Manne, Buddy Rich, Louis Bellson, Joe Chambers, Ben riley, Donald Bailey, Pete La Roca, Kenny Washington, Eric Harland, Peter Erskine, Chester Thompson, Omar Hakim, Brian Blade, Jeff 'Tain' Watts, Justin Faulkner, Kendrick Scott, Greg Hutchinson, Lenny White
You forgot Gene Krupa...
And Hampton was no slouch all though I preferred him on vibes
I would add Joe Morello.
@@Tom70s lol idiot
@@krioni86sa Idiot? Why?
As someone who love Nate Smith and Hutchinson as well as Buddy and Bonham, I think you are seeing half the picture. When I was on Cruise ships we had those we called Jazz Nazis. As an MD I had to fire a few. Mainly for playing a Sinatra like it was be bop. What Buddy did, was popularize a style, and act as an intro to the world of Jazz. As a young man , into the likes of Bonham, Buddy led me to Tony Williams , then Max, and later Bill Stewart and Hutchinson. In that sense Buddy served a valuable purpose. Anyway I still make most of my career in the Rock genre, but I yet my opinion has I think some validity.
Very interesting similar to me except I never Bonzo was never my fav .
Buddy may have had a " minor " impact on " traditional " or some may call it " real jazz "....but.... Buddy, for most of his life played in Big Bands. ( As a " sideman " as well in his own Big Bands ). Why ? Because he loved it.....but there is no doubt in my mind that he could have played in a so called " traditional jazz band / setting " ( wich he,..by the way.. even did on a few occasions ) as well as he did in the Big Bands he played.
Listen to what Jojo Mayer has to say about Buddy's proficiency compared to that of a Vladimir Horowitz:
th-cam.com/video/R2a712M5SJE/w-d-xo.html
......and I'm totaly with Jojo.
(not saying that the " new breed " of jazz drummers isn't great.....but Buddy was so different and outstanding....and yes, I know he couldn't read music....but who cares/cared ? He always... delivered and the older he became, the better he became. )
Amen, good point!
I checked out the Jo Jo Mayer video. As soon as he said Buddy Rich was Schlock I turned it off: (One minute 14 seconds in) th-cam.com/video/R2a712M5SJE/w-d-xo.html) Oh, he was speaking German? My bad...
@@citydrums7525 The language Jojo speaks in this interview is his mother tongue and it's called " Switzerdütsch ". You understand it when you speak " regular " german but it's not just a german accent, it's a language of it's own. ( In Switzerland there are two main languages, french and switzerdütsch. Depends on where you live in Switzerland.)
Oh, and by the way....the video offers subtitles in english.✌🏽
Dude I’m an undergrad jazz major at Rutgers and Clarence Penn is getting his masters here currently!! He’s incredible
I play mostly rock but Bill Stewart and Ari Hoenig are one of my biggest influences as far as sound goes. The intensity, the creativity...
This list is such a well needed breath of fresh air, thank you! Anyone making the rounds the past thirty years in NYC jazz clubs would agree. Three drummers I'd add, and love to see you feature, are Joey Baron, Jim Black and Tom Rainey.
Just another fact here BUDDY RICH has influenced and will continue to influence many hundreds of thousands if not millions of drummers over the years and in years to come More, much more than all these guys put together ever will! .... just say’n!
Agree!!!!
Brian Smith : Yes! Damn is right.... right between the eyes
Henry Cole, Ali Jackson, Ullyses Owens, Obed Calvaire, Justin Faulkner, Allan Mednard, Kenny Washington, Lewis Nash, Adam Cruz
I think you nailed this honestly. I do think there is a pretty big difference between buddy and these guys simply because you only ever heard buddy play in a big band, where as these guys are all playing in smaller combos and with a more modern flavor. Buddy was great for his time and as a big band drummer.
Buddy played as good in a small group context with Bird etc. Please check out JATP and you will see there were years of Buddy you missed when he was doing small group work.
I appreciate your brave! It's difficult on TH-cam to say something on a famous musician because most people idolize that figure and go against who's speaking. Recently I add stats to a Buddy Rich drum solo in my channel and at the end I said nowadays there are "drummers as good as Buddy Rich". Just for this sentence many people attacked me in the comments.
1 drummer I think of as one of the best educators of jazz drumming is Allan Dawson. My drum teacher told me a story that Allan Dawson told him in the 70's. He opened for Buddy and Buddy told him after the set, "Hey that was some hip shit with the hi hat." During Buddy's set Allan said he was using my concept as if it was his. He was knocked out by Buddy's way of being able to do anything he heard and copy it and use it musically. I like the drummers you mentioned that I don't know about. Thanks for feeding my appetite for something new. Once you find Jazz and actually get it on an emotional level. Then the technical stuff becomes easier to digest. At least that's what I found. Everything I learned with Allan Dawson exercises reading Ted Reed's Syncopation. Years later I started feeling jazz emotionally and wanting to listen to more. My playing got so much better. I wasted years on chops and rudiments giving myself tendonitis. Arthritis doesn't help either.
I talk too much. I appreciate your point of view. Jazz is so minimized by the media.
Alan was a great teacher and your comment was very good.
It seems to me that it always boils down to what it is that you are looking for when you listen to someone. If you are all about fast hands and chops, chances are Buddy will be #1 on your list. I was lucky enough to enjoy a conversation with some heavy jazz players in NYC at a jam session and I was shocked when they mention a drummer listed on this video who from their perspective "didn't´ swing". My drum hero Elvin Jones talked about dealing with criticism from people that didn't understand his playing. If Elvin can´t please everybody, nobody can.
Ethan Iverson said he's met folk on the NYC jazz scene who thought Paul Motian couldn't play drums. Now while his approach was/is unusual, those doubters only had to go back to when PM drummed for Bill Evans to see the man was legit, and then some!
Any 'best' conversion is dumb, but the backlash has gone so far in the other direction that it's worth saying that BR was a unique voice, musical, and totally fun to watch & listen to. Also capable of being super tasteful in small group settings, like the Ella & Louis record. Sure he was an asshole and an evolutionary dead-end in jazz drumming, but that doesn't mean he didn't make some great records or isn't worth listening to.
If there’s such a backlash how come BR is on every top 10, 20, and 50 list ever
@@8020drummer Idk, I don't look at lists of the best drummers. :) But I'm sure any media outlet making a list like this is going to have a lot of boring received wisdom and Boomer picks. I'm all for updating the canon and for people knowing about Nasheet Waits & Clarence Penn (and Whiplash sucks), but apparently I'm in the hipster drummer echo chamber and not seeing whoever is still ranking jazz musicians.
I agree, Mr. Rich displayed supreme touch---and time keeping on some lesser known ballad recordings! Why do people refer to him as an A-hole?
@@mahavashkar4677 Because he would berate his band after a bad show, as recorded on tape by one of his members. He also rubbed many up the wrong way including Dusty Sprinfield and his long time friend Frank Sinatra, who was just as much an asshole as Buddy if not more.
Thanks for your videos!! I think BR is a very important figure in jazz- not NEARLY as important as Louis Armstrong or Charlie Parker, Gene Krupa, Coltrane, etc. - but the big bands he led made some important music and hired some of the best arrangers/composers - and provided great opportunities for some younger musicians (Bobby Shew and Bob Mintzer - for ex.) His personality (both good and bad aspects) were memorable. His playing had some pretty jaw dropping technique. But I would listen to hours and hours of SO MANY other players before I would listen to him. That said, a lot of people were really drawn to his showmanship and technique/chops and he will hold a high place in their view for ever. He also was an important influence on many drummers who heard him- Weckl and Colaiuta (and many others) cite him as an influence. But start listing off the most influential jazz MUSIC ever (Think Coltrane albums, Miles albums, etc) and He will not appear very much.... Billy Higgins will show up quite a bit- along w Tony, Elvin, Max, Mel Lewis, Papa Jo, Sonny Payne, etc... even Bill Stewart, and the "younger" generation, which you give great examples of in this video. Keep it up! I enjoy your work!
Tony Williams , and I’m just agreeing with Miles.
Miles affirmed it. Yet, it's quite obvious Tony was a blatant game changer in jazz drumming---similar to Hendrix on guitar. Tony Williams was brilliant with his hi-hats, cymbals and sparkling musicality---within the song (PINNOCHIO)---and very conceptual soloing. Some times it seems people downplay his 1975 LP Believe it! Yet, if you listen carefully, he puts on a clinic on that LP. During the early 90's he led a high quality quintet that produced about 5 wonderful LP's that showcased his wonderful compositions as well. All props to Buddy Rich---The Mike Tyson of Jazz Drumming.
I thought Roy Haynes was Mile's favorite. Just goes to show.. something
@@stevelk1329 I'm sure Miles appreciated all of his great band mates. But, I've found more than one quote where he goes out his way, to exalt Mr. Williams as a Superior Artist/Musician.
@@mahavashkar4677 Not positive, not a big deal. Just remember reading a couple places he'd said this. Can't remember if I read a quote from him saying that. I do remember reading Davis saying he knew Williams was going to be one of the baddest ... drummers ever the first time he heard him 🙂
Miles was a huge fan of Buddy's. He sat listening to Buddy once, & said, "Did u hear that one lick he played? Turned the whole band around!"
Joe Morello 🙌
i think you missed the point lol...
@@vb6427 no I didn’t. I just love joe morello that’s all. Totally random answer. Not pretending to answer Nate are any other of you brilliant smart guys.
YES! Always makes me sad he gets left off great drummers lists. I guess his style isn't flashy enough, but that is why he stands out for me- he serves the song, not his ego.
Yes !! Definitely one of the most musical jazz drummers
He was the first one who came to my mind. Joe’s a beast!
Kendrick Scott’s drum solo on Joey Alexander’s tiny desk with the snare set up is absolutely incredible.
Thanks for another awesome video Nate! Once again you tackle a subject that most You tube guys wouldn't even think of. I always look forward to your material! 🥁❤
That’s my son, Matt Brewer, on bass at the 3:59 mark.
Your son is amazing! One of my favorite bassists of the modern era.
your son is matt brewer? daamm
Wow!😊
It’s funny because I think most laypersons think of Buddy as a jazz drummer but I always thought of him as a big band drummer. His chops (and attitude) transcended all styles but he never strayed far from that genre. He use to say if you’re a drummer you play all styles but whenever he played another style he played it as a big band player. I always thought of big band as a subs type of jazz. Nonetheless Buddy deserves recognition. How many great jazz(and rock) drummers did he inspire?!
When I started playing Drums in High School, I was heavy on Buddy due to his influence on Neil Peart. I figured Buddy was the pinnacle of Jazz representation.
Once I got into college, started playing stuff from Tony Williams, Philly Joe and Max Roach, I kind of realized how much of an outlier Buddy was from Jazz drumming’a history as it evolved from the 40’s to the 70’s and into Fusion.
He was a fantastic drummer, but he isn’t an Elvin Jones, Philly Joe, Max Roach, Art Blakey or Tony Williams.
👏🏿💯👏🏿💯👏🏿💯👏🏿💯🥁🎶 ...Baby Dodds, Big Sid Catlett, ".et,al" as well!
Funny how the next video in the auto play cue is of Buddy Rich on the Tonight Show. Maybe instead of shaming people for not knowing these drummers over the more commonly known pros from the past you could just call this an introduction to the modern greats who deserve to be known.
Yes I agree with you wholeheartedly you’ve got the right idea!
Love Buddy Rich and his technical skills were insane, but he isn't all that musical compared to other great drummers, so it depends on what you are looking for. Switching genre to make a point, Ringo Starr is the exact opposite, not particularly gifted technically but he played drums like a musician, very few like him.
Great comment. A few days ago i saw this vídeo: "Deconstruing Something (Isoleted Tracks) - th-cam.com/video/uuj-rdatHHs/w-d-xo.html" ... it's awsome for its simplicity. Most of the song he didn't uses the hihats or ride, only snare and bass drum. The music wins.
@@YeahNego Then add how often the drum is enough to identify the Beatles song. Recently learned that one of his "secrets" was being a lefty playing a righty drum kit, he was always a smidgen late because he had to go further with his left hand. Take a look at this , she is amazing in her own right.
I disagree. Buddy certainly was musical. No one before him made the whole band better the way he did. He wasn't all bombast. He pushed the band. You can hear the difference even on the Tonight Show (sometimes), when he'd play with the band. Shaughnessy was one of the best big band drummers, and it was his band. Yet, even as a kid I could hear the difference when buddy sat in. The song came alive, more excitement, more integration between the drums and horns - somehow, even though he was playing lots of notes - more musical. He really could hear the band and respond in a brilliant way. The solos were good, sometimes spectacular, yes, but his playing with the band. That was his musical genius IMO.
thank god !
@@stevelk1329 The drummer is the spice that brings out the flavor of a band. That was something Buddy Rich was very good at doing.
I don't know why your generaton of drummers equates Buddy Rich with being on the Carson Show? He had a decades long career before he started appearing on the Tonight Show. He was a child prodigy in vaudville. He was a featured drummer beginning in the late 30's. He was a highly respected professional throughout the 40s, 50s, and 60s. That was why he appeared on the Tonight Show, because he was a legend. He didn't become a legend because of the Tonight Show.
Yes, there have been brilliant drummers since Buddy. Each era has its major contributers.
The history of the instrument is important. As is the social function of the music. In the big band era, music was as much for dancing as it was for listening. There is something important about the community of dancers and musicians. That has been lost in jazz. Part of why Buddy was / is important is that he knew how to get people on the dance floor and keep them there.
That was something that was special about the drummers of that era, Chick Webb, Big Sid, Krupa, and the woefully underappreciated Davey Tough.
There are many many great jazz drummers...they all had something else to offer. Buddy was one of them.and let's not forget he was a pioneer. Plus buddy's technical prowess was way ahead of his time.
He was a pioneer in what regard?
@@applejuice5635 If you have to ask that question then any answer given would not satisfy you.
@@reschrefflerakaschreff9566 I genuinely wanted to know, I wasn't trying to argue.
@@applejuice5635 Sorry I took it wrong. He pioneered in so many ways from " Traps the Drum Wonder " as a child star to the acknowledged greatest during his time by his fellow drummers, bandleaders and the public. Gene Krupa who brought the drums to the front of the band instead of being a 2nd class player agreed as did all during the Rich era. BR was and still is a legend and pioneer in the big band era and the top drum soloist ever imho.
@@applejuice5635. Revolutionized the concept of drum chops. He’s the Tatum of the drums
I disagree with Nate all of the time. In this particular case I happen to agree, Buddy Rich was an amazing technician, and flawless big band legend. He was also abusive, tyrannical and really didn't move on past the big band era. All of you old cats can get as mad as you want, but today's players have taken the musicality of yesterday's greats and evolved it into a new dimension. Is this a better dimension? is it more musical? it's fucking jazz dude. People have been disagreeing over the definition of the genre for the entirety of it's existence. If you're an old or "old-school" cat, please understand that your anger is part of the tradition. I thank you for your participation.
He was more than a great technician. Of course, that doesn’t necessarily mean he was an innovator.
Seth Cashman : an innovator is one who sets new standards for everyone else to follow unfortunately the standards buddy rich set no one has yet been able to follow certainly not these guys in this video! These So-called “Young Guns”
And please by all means thank you for your participation!
No anger involved......just love of the music. Buddy was not a nice guy. No doubt. What was a old man, nearly 50, to do? He played his music.....when many thought it was dead. You now have great musical programs in college and high schools. There’s a reason for that. I would guess that some of the new cats discussed here benefitted from them....there are some truly great players out there. The deal is that many drummers did not survive, or could not make the transition from ‘swing’ to an 8th note feel. I’m so old I’m surprised I can remember this stuff or complete this sentence. When young, I did not, could not, appreciate what and who had gone before. But now that I’m old and angry......with an open mind......it ain’t so hard.
//3333
Yeah, of course, he didn't reinvented himself or progressed to new pathways. But intead, he perfected his playing style to a pretty high standart.
He's one of the old guard "snare drummers" who expand their vocabulary over the drum set.
And my personal opinion, he sets the energy standart for the rock drumming generation. Sweatin like buddy, should be a standart term for a metal show these days 🤣
But as far as jazz evolved, i mean, as long as you play the swing pattern, nothing really evolved 😶 but who cares, as long as it is fun, it's worth it.
By the way, i thought, to invent new styles, you have to break with the tradition? Kind of rebelling against the conservative standart, like bop did back then?! Art should be surprising right? So then, Check out Christian Lillinger!!!! th-cam.com/video/1_jOHpHwGoo/w-d-xo.html
I always loved Joe Morello for his style. He could play just as fast as Buddy, he just didn't do it all the time.
Joe Morello was a hired gun so he had to play within a set of rules. Buddy Rich had his own band so he could play drums, which is a fine thing to do if that's what you want.
@@legacyShredder1 Good point. Joe was one of my teachers and had told me many times about how he had to hold back with Brubeck. Brubeck was open to Joe's playing style fully but Paul Desmond keep saying that Joe was playing too loud. Some of Joe's best work was done after Brubeck when he had more freedom and he was amazing at drum clinics prior to his lifelong health issues becoming worse as time went by.
Answer: no.
Amen
oh my! The answer is a stunning YES!
Explain, B Burnside. Enlighten us.
Buddy got all kinds of press, played very cleanly, and had some chops, but had little to no impact on jazz or other jazz players. That's what made ”Whiplash” so weird to me, he obsessed over Rich even though many players from his time, such as Kruppa, had way more influence on jazz. No hate towards him, but there are tons more players (better and worse than him) that had more importance to jazz and would be much more worth will to check out. This is of course subscribing to the idea that it matters who is best, but no matter how you feel about the argument younger players need to know Buddy Rich isn't number one.
B Burnside: OK it’s obvious you’re not a true believer in so far as Buddy Rich is concerned, sounds like to me you can take him or leave him and that’s OK that’s fine you’re entitled to your taste your preferences your opinions but dismiss BUDDY like that makes me wonder if you really really ever listen to the guy maybe you did maybe you didn’t I don’t know I’m not gonna say all I know is as far as as I’m concerned and we can agree to disagree BUDDY RICH was the greatest drummer ever to draw breath no matter what kind Music we’re talking about and who’s to say; who’s to pigeonhole jazz that way? I mean you’re really short changing the concept of jazz when you played The stuff, like this guy has done on this video this seemingly one type of jazz Presented here! When there’s so many different types of jazz there’s many different types of jazz, Like fruits and vegetables there are so many tastes! Same with music: there’s big band jazz which was Buddy’s forte, there is progressive jazz, there’s straightahead jazz, there’s bebop, there’s Dixieland jazz,There’s swing jazz, there’s avant-garde jazz and so many more genres of jazz! seems to me like the guys in this video; seem to be all playing in that one groove, that one feel that one sound the fact that this guy who posted this video and I’m sure he knows what he’s doing as far as DRUMS are concerned ???!!!!I’m sure he’s a great player but to put an “X” over Buddy’s Image, It’s frankly to me very telling where his heads at; to me....very condescending to Buddy in his description of him he just dismisses Buddy Like that and that’s his right he has a right to his opinion, but again Iwill just have to agree to disagree but if I could play like any single drummer in the world if I had my choice Of anyone in any genre, my pick, it would be BUDDY RICH every freaking time! any thoughts?!
I studied with Ari for a few months during the summer he’s great I learned a lot from him
Rich was a big band drummer. In that idiom, top 5 no question. And not just because of chops. Not even mostly because of chops. He really pushed the band. He listened and knew how to raise excitement. And he did (in the 40s), along with his hands, have lots of bass drum chops and was good with his brushes. But his forte (so to speak) was with large groups - lots of horns. Some of his solos were very good but many of them were just rudiments on top of rudiments. But nothing like the best jazz players can do. Roach showed us that..
But geez, he didn't even like to play Bebop. He was either unwilling or unable to play Bebop, IMO, well. So how could he be in the top ranks of those drummers, who I feel mix well with what one might call more generic "jazz" drummers? He doesn't.
Thanks for the playlist.
I know in recent years he was a featured meinl artist and even got on the cover of modern drummer, but I feel like Ralph Peterson isn't talked about enough. The dude is a monster.
Great video Nate!
He is talked about all the drummers Nate mentioned Ralph has taught at least 50% of ari hoeing, mark turner jr. Chris brown, tyshawn sory, and to many more to name
I needed this... excited to dig in to these names
I studied with Victor Lewis and Kenny Washington when they were in Australia for a week long clinic at the Conservatorium in Sydney , they were wonderful guys, great teachers and great true Jazz drummers.
Also Jan Christensen was there and he was definitely one of a kind.
Louie Bellson was also a fantastic and influential drummer in certain realms of the jazz tradition.
Definitely the best soloist and just a genius.
just like this guy here, everyone will have their opinion- i think the problem is that this yes or no judgement is focusing on jazz- the real question is- is buddy the greatest artist to play a set of drums? - i have listened to pretty much all of the drummers that have been mentioned here(early history through todays drummers-and yes- various styles )- there are many unbelievably talented drummers ( technical and soulful) that have blessed us-but there is a level of overall mastery that buddy possessed that i never heard any other drummer equal - god bless freedom of speech and opinion!
Great video. Always something new to learn
I guarantee you all this Drummers listened to Buddy Rich
Buddy is unique in that he was a huge celebrity. He also had a shtick that added to his fame. He went from being an innovator in the 40's to still a mainstream act into the 80's. And oh yeah, he was also a monster. Insane power, speed, facility and command of the instrument. Sure, by 1980 or so, styles were changing and Buddy remained in that old school style, but to say his contribution to jazz was "minor" is nothing short of ignorance.
Kudos for Jorge Rossi. SERIOUSLY one of the most underrated drummers ever! I have some other thoughts on your picks that I want to think about a bit more. But Jorge is the shit.
“Run”...😂😂
Great video as always, man! Some names I’ve never heard, but will definitely check out now!🤘🏻🤘🏻
Buddy not influential? You and Adam are missing the fact that Buddy single handedly (literary) saved big band jazz when he formed his group in late 60s. No one was such powerhouse in big bands like him and we can be glad for that. And with that TV show thing, milions of people saw this way jazz as interresting artform in 70s when totaly new sound was popular and on radio. Ten thousands of drummers picked sticks after seeing Buddy play. Including me and I’m 24 so it coud be any of those new drumers drummer you talking about. But it wasn’t. It was Buddy Rich.
You're absolutely right about Buddy Rich, he was not influential and did not create a new style. The only thing you probably misunderstand about Buddy is that despite is association with show biz, which contributed to his reputation, he could really play like hell ! He was, simply put, a drum prodigy. I saw him live 3 times and can testify to the fact that during his solos our collective jaws, "dropped to the floor" and you could literally hear people in the audience say ,"oh my God."
Buddy would literally bring the house down every time and got a standing ovation. I would tell you that most videos on TH-cam as good as they may be, do not do him justice.
The drummers you recommend are great and interesting though. Thanks for the share!
You're absolutely right about Buddy Rich, he had more chops than his country's collective barbecues on the 4th of July. The only thing you probably misunderstand is what "literally" means.
@@dvdly Buddy was life and death "blow your brains out" drumming every time. He did have a style, but it was not imitated by anyone: it was the "Drum as if your life depends on it" and play the most impressive logic-defying stuff you can so as to leave everybody in shock and awe after a performance kind of style ! So he was influential after all , If you look at it from that aspect...
Haven't been able to watch yet, but jazz has a lot of subgenres. So it's tough to name one best jazz drummer.
Buddy Rich is probably not the best bebop drummer, for example, but I think of him as the undisputed G.O.A.T. of big band.
It different types of Jazz but Buddy was a def a pioneer in the Jazz world, Buddy was more on big band type jazz which is really live honestly tbh with Buddy’s style that’s pretty much what was the big thing. But what made Buddy like amazing is his techniques and his ability to pull out the unknown, that hi-hat trick plus his creativity when play it inspired a lot of drummers today, but I can agree it’s many great jazz drummer shush as talented as Buddy but, also too it’s many types of styles of jazz and everyone has their specialty, and when playing with band style you gotta bring it
Cause playing a lot of big band Buddy knew how to accent those hits he played with the band and not against still with energy, but it’s hood to look at many Jazz drummers case Sammy Davis and actually played too which he was really good...
Kenny Clarke for me , even had pleasure of a lesson with him on timekeeping back in the early 70’s , however no complaints with names others have put forward but Buddy Rich definitely one of the greatest Big Band drummers but not necessarily best Jazz Drummer.
Your idea about "one of the greatest big band drummers but not necessarily best jazz drummer" is about as spot on as it could be said.
So happy someone finally is giving Nasheet his due. I used to see him with Antonio Hart back in the 90s and he blew me away. Because of him i felt inspired to go check out some of his contemporaries like Hutch, Harland and Blade. One cat left off the list that comes right out of "the tradition" but is playing his balls off is Joe Farnsworth. Recently rediscovered by me I cant wait for this pandemic to end because he's going to be the first cat i go see play.
Nice list. A couple of whom I need to dive deeper on. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t care about making anyone’s list, but I really dig Herlin Riley’s playing, especially on Wynton’s Sunflowers.
Herlin is excellent and underrated
@@8020drummer Herlin is low key beast. I'm also kinda surprised that Ed Thigpen didn't come up on your list. His brush work is some of the best in all of jazz. Another sleeper is Bob Moses who doesn't get enough love.
I don’t know why Buddy was even brought up in this video. He was from
the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s, but made a resurgence in the 60’s and put his
big band in the limelight again.
That was a remarkable feat, and
modernized big band drumming
until it finally gasped it’s last breath.
No one then, and no one now could
do what he did in that setting, and his
influence was pervasive. He never was a small combo player, even when he was with Charlie Parker, it was always with big band’s.
Unfortunately, it is apparent the 80/20 guy can't stand Buddy Rich and had to add him so that his video would receive more attention and plays. Not very professional and filled with much misinformation and either lazy or lack of research.
Maybe you could have titled this video...10 drummers you gotta know..
I bet in 1950 the guys coming up were saying was Chick Webb really the best ever?
Like debating who's the best ever in baseball, it becomes a generational question. Styles change.
My go-to guy will always be Joe Morello...but us old guys are thick headed.
Suggestion, how playing has evolved.
Nevertheless always excellent work.
Agreed. This is a great list, but we all know how subjective it all is. "The Best" isn't something we can easily quantify. There are too many variables.
It's telling that all those Buddy Rich tribute concerts 30 years ago were either non-jazz or fusion drummers participating. I agree Buddy's imprint was not in jazz per se, he was more an influential example of how a musician can push oneself in technical accomplishment, and how to put oneself out there in the public as an *interesting performer* to a wider than niche audience.
Good video on jazz drumming greats, but a hard subject to quantify!! They're will always be BIAS- for or against certain drummers, but if you minus personality/ character flaws, and just look at overall skill, the list can be more accurate. It would be better to brake it up in historical timeframes/jazz styles etc., because music changes- and jazz has evolved- and expanded!! You seem to dislike Buddy Rich somewhat- he was a flawed person- but an extremely dedicated jazz drummer- and dedicated to trap drumming artistry- all you have to do is see his concert video's on U- TUBE etc.- on one he is wearing a suit, Amazzing left hand, and had a heart attack, while giving an amazing solo!! Personally he is not my favorite drummer, I have seen him in concert a long time ago- but it is hard not too respect his extreme skill, and dedication to his art form- jazz/big band drumming! Why people think he is the arguably the greatest, is because of his soloing mainly- he is a precision machine- that is creative as well. I don't like long solo's personally, they can get boring, but he does about everything thing on a lot you can do!!
Nate from left field : Ginger Baker the man who stopped talking to anyone who thought he was a Rock Drummer!
Baker did a lot of great jazz recordings and played with great jazz players in his day. Seriously was forced into rock n roll because of the loud amplifiers and the drugs. Great musician nonetheless.
All those great jazz drummers you mentioned studied Buddy Rich at some point, maybe the influence in terms of the way Buddy swung using 24" kick 2 and 4 on the hi hat only is dated, but his contribution to the evolution of the instrument is absolutely important. I met a young drummer who told me Steve Gadd sucks comparing him to Tony Roster and Chris Coleman's, I told him there was a time when Gadd was the most technical drummer of all time.
In 2035 drummers will make fun of how basic Thomas Origen was in 2012....and you will defend him...
Love this kind of content! Your straight up and down drum lessons are great, but I love watching this drum "culture" stuff.
I probably shouldn't even stick my nose in here because I'm a bass player, not a drummer, and I also have hometown bias being from Minneapolis, but I really feel like Dave King belongs in here. He stuns and delights me every time I hear him play.
It's always good to hear a bassist's perspective, so come on in friend.
Oh boy, I can't wait to see the comments on this video.
;Oh yeah and you’re going to see him all right!
I enjoy your videos and appreciate you introducing us to cats we may not know of. BUT. Why did I click? Why have I studied drums all these years? Why do I love jazz at all? How can I truly appreciate what these great players are doing? You got it....Buddy! He did his thing, left his legacy, and we are still talking about him, as we are Babe Ruth. I still get a thrill hearing him interpret those charts. Don’t mean I can’t love the greatness and creativity, the passion and groove of the others. There’s a reason I can, BR. We all “March to the beat of a different drummer “.....we all members of the same club. We just like some members more than others.
About time someone did this. Well done 80/20,
Very much enjoyed your video & was thrilled to see many of the cats I know from Smalls Jazz Club getting some love, especially Clarence Penn, Ari Hoenig & Justin Brown
Three drummers that are fantastic that would be on my list are:
Johnathan Blake (my favorite)
Justin Faulkner
Eric McPherson
Ed Blackwell, Jon Christensen....Joey Baron ,Kenny Wollesen,Herlin Riley and so on and so on...
I'll continue to listen to Buddy Rich, but I'll be adding your recommendations to my play list.
I enjoy Bill Goodwin's playing, the longtime drummer with the Phil Woods Quartet.
I went to jazz school with Ari and not only was he a badass back then (the mid-1990s), he is an incredible human being. I doubt he remembers me, but he made an impression on me
Did you ever see Buddy live ? I saw Buddy live and it was amazing !!!!!!!!!!
I feel like buddy rich is like the most overrated AND underrated drummer of all time lol. He’s overrated among non-jazz musicians who have been told he’s the greatest of all time (and all the stuff you say in this video). He’s underrated among a lot of jazz musicians who think he only did cheesy big band showboating and forget that he played on a some great small group records in the 50s. Great video, and great list of the real cats!
Viola Smith!
I think it's both sad an hilarious when someone tries to diminish Buddy's impact on Jazz. When he started, no one was doing what he was doing. No one. No one had his chops, or his drive, or his energy. He elevated every band he played for. Harry James had to commission new charts to keep Buddy happy because Buddy didn't want to play the Jazz/Pop/Dance music that Harry James was often known for. Buddy helped elevate Artie Shaw's band, and pushed Jimmy Dorsey to commission new, hipper, jazzier charts to satisfy him. And with his own band, there was not a single Big Band that could come close to how tight and powerful Buddy's band was. Buddy did other things, too, with smaller bands, and experimented quite a bit over the years. A ton of Jazz drummers were influenced by him. Dave Weckl comes to mind as an example. You don't know what it was like in the late 30's and throughout the 40's when Buddy came on the scene. He was a whirlwind - a hurricane that devastated the landscape and forced a change. He modernized Jazz with his approach. Jazz isn't just one style, and modern Jazz is fine, but listen to Buddy's stuff from the 70's. Amazing albums. And his drumming propelled everything. Oh, I was fortunate enough to see Buddy play live multiple times in the late 70's and early to mid 80's. He blew my mind. He played things that didn't seem humanly possible.
Great comment. Thanks
Thank you for making this point. Buddy was so good and as a technician, unmatched. But that gets translated to mean "the best drummer ever, in every conceivable way" by so many people. Offer up the opinion "other drummers were more creative" and hear the response "Buddy was creative"; or try suggesting he wasn't that subtle and you get sent to a youtube clip of him being subtle, once. We need to have sensible converstaions about Buddy, about what he brought and about what he didn't bring - outside of the fact he was an asshole which, is basically irrelevant in terms of his musical legacy
Well said.
THANK YOU. 'Bout time somebody made this video.
Joe LaBarbara, drummer for Tony Bennet, Bill Evans and many others
As a drummer, I did enjoy your video and can appreciate a top drummer regardless of his popularity on a list. Your video was enlightening and worth the watch. Thank You
Alan Dawson, Charlie Persip, Billy Higgins, Ed Thigpen, to add a few more.
Edu Manzano and Jose Manalo.
Clarence Becton! Nate mentioned Rudy Royston who's like you're version of Clarence Becton's bold and strong style
@@Highenddude4179 Wow. I'm jealous. I first heard him on Mal Waldron's The Quest album and made it a point to buy anything I could find with him on it.
Glad you included the aqesome Bill Stewart but you forgot Antonio Sanchez. Antonio is a true jazz master true 4 limb independence. Ageeeld w you about Buddy Rich. Glad someone made this video.
To be fair, Rich was not only showbiz drummer, he played on a lots of great records from Charlie Parker to Louis Armstrong. He recorded duets with Max Roach etc. But yes, he is not that influental anymore.
@george nolte well said George, when Stefan wrote "to be fair" in his post he was the wrong side of the truth! his statement was in fact a bias opinion!
@george nolte "they live on forever . So does their influence " Well... It does not. I teach literature and if You look at what people read in the past, a lot of the most beloved writers of the time are forgotten now. Rich was great bigband drummer, top 10 easily. But most of todays advanced drummers seek for inspiration elsewhere.
@george nolte Well, I dont want to enter the debate about jazz canon, but You contradict yoursef. I said, that the most popular artist of the time dont have to be so lasting or influental. You spit on me the cannonical figures. I love them all. But there are many musicians, that were at least as popular as them and are non cannonical figures now. Maynard Ferguson made more hits than any of the great jazz players and his band is not considered so influental. Paul Whiteman was once the embodiment of jazz. Now compare his legacy to Ellington.
Your so mistaken! Lol !! You people are killing me! 😂😂😂😂😂
Time to check these guys out. They sound great on your video here. I like listening to unknown (to me) great jazz drummers Thanks Nate!
I think Buddy gets a raw deal out of this video, as he does in that Adam Neely video. Summing him up as just having great chops and was a bit of a dick, that's quite a disservice. Not to come across as some Buddy Rich Fan Club, but there was more to him than just the bus tapes and appearing on The Tonight Show. It's like describing Jimi Hendrix as that guitarist who played loud and set his guitar on fire. I agree that he is not the be-all-and-end-all of jazz drumming (especially since he was pretty much exclusively a swing big band drummer, although he did some nice bebop stuff with Charlie Parker), but comparing the music Buddy played with the music that, say, Elvin Jones played, is comparing apples and oranges; only it feels that one's supposed to be inferior to the other. I love both Buddy and Elvin, and Tony, and Eric Harland, and all the other guys I have heard of in the "Top 10" and in the list near the end of the video. Neither is superior to the other. They're all great in their way.
Also, why no mention of Gene Krupa, Joe Morello or Billy Higgins?
Ouch! I feel like I just got told I suck for having been sent here from a Buddy Rich video. Nate, you shared a whole lot of new names for me, thanks. Now, instead of getting told off, could I have had a Spotify or similar playlist to help get into modern jazz drumming legends? I fear just posing this question will trigger a rant about sub-par bitrates, and if i’m serious about jazz drumming, I should buy a ticket to New York and be in the same room as these heroes, and anything else is just a big fat insult to the craft that is jazz drumming. Loved the video by the way!
So true, and the pity is the 80/20 guy destroyed all the good on the new greats by attacking one of the old ones who is a legend-Buddy Rich. His lack of research was very disappointing when it comes to not going back and treating jazz drumming from before Chick Webb up to the present. And your comment about rants is right on like your playing.
Thanks. Good info. One thing though is that Buddy himself called himself a big band player and not a jazz player.
No, he always referred to his band as a band that plays jazz.
Buddy is to me the best drummer by far. I started drums as a child. Buddy gave till his heart went out. He had an attack during this solo. No. There’s no one who play like Rch. He just owned everything he did. I don’t understand. Are these clips supposed to make me forget him. Cobham was another who I love. Saw him in 72. And just killed it. Anyway this is always great. th-cam.com/video/9esWG6A6g-k/w-d-xo.html
Buddy Rich - heavy on the bombast! Beloved of many a prog rocker.
Just noticed the disclaimer - ignore previous comment...Love the channel BTW
I think Buddy Rich definitely wasn’t the most musical drummer in jazz
Really?? Then who do you suggest was more skilled than Buddy Rich?
Depends what you consider musical, which incidentally is not universal.
Modern being the operative word here. Buddy was not just some weird sideshow doing television shows. All the greats of his day knew who Buddy was, and went to see his shows. Now it’s popular to dismiss him, and sure, that diminishes his impact on modern (jazz) drumming, in addition to the drum-driven big band style not really being fashionable. But Buddy was not just some guy with chops, he had a great sense of rythm, time and feel. Like, I’m sure he’d have been great on some of the best bebop albums, but who in their right mind would put buddy on a hard bop album or something? Granted, today he’s mostly known for his solos and chops, and his flamboyant style would be out of place in most modern jazz, but let’s not forget the wonderful drumming he was actually known for in his day (it’s a shame if he’s dismissed as some chopper after watching a couple of solos on TH-cam). That said, I do respect the idea of turning people on to other, just as wonderful, drummers who are much more influential on modern jazz styles.
In my opinion, the guys that are still missing here are: Ralph Peterson, Damion Reid, Johnathan Blake and pretty sure i still forgot bout 2 or 3
Kenny Washington...
or 7 or 8 Dennis
Excellent list, I'm hip to all of those cats! I also love Obed Calvaire who is not mentioned enough, but He is such a beast! Great video Nate!
Jeff tain watts?
Thanks man! We need these kind of vids more. Fresh blood, new times!
Well... I do like Phil collins playing with his big band.... 🤙Greetings from 🇧🇷!
Thank you for this video brother. As a songwriter and jazz drummer enthusiast I have a lot more studying to do. I noticed that popular singers were once drummers i.e. Chaka Khan, Phil Collins, Teddy Pendergrass, Jeffrey Osbourne, Maurice White founder of Earth, Wind, & Fire, etc.
Is showing a clip of Neely's video on Whiplash not just as bad as showing a clip of Whiplash?
I think it's actually worse than just replaying the entirety of Whiplash with no commentary, but forcing people to watch "eyes wide shut" style
Rossy getting some love!!!
Never thought I’d see the day.
Good on you Nate.
is "best" relevant in music or any art form based on emotion and not competition ?
Your best video YET !