Differential Hardening vs Through Hardening & Folded Steel vs Mono Steel -What Makes a Better Katana
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Hello there sword friends,
This video is one I have pondered how to do well for quite a while and I think I am ready to give it a go. I am hoping to shed a little light “from a beginner perspective” on what some of the differences are in heat treatment and the impact of folding.
You will see these five blades generously donated by JKOO. Check them out here -
www.sinosword....
jkoosword.com/
T10 steel, through hardened blade
US$128
41.75” total length
2lb 8.7oz
29” Blade
1080 carbon folded steel mix with 1095 steel, the main material is 1080 steel , through hardened blade
US$148
41.65” total length
2lb 8.3 oz
29” Blade
T10 steel with hamon
US$158
41.612” total length
2lb 8.8 oz
29” Blade
1080 carbon folded steel mix with 1095 steel, the main material is 1080 steel with hamon
US$178
41.78” total length
2lb 7.9 oz
29” Blade
T10 steel (hitatsura hamon)
US$218
41.55” total length
2lb 8.8 oz
29” Blade
These blades are as close to the same as the forge could make them. Keep in mind there are some minor differences but they all have the same fittings and feeling.
This video is broken down into the following parts.
10:27 Observations on the steel and its aesthetic qualities.
15:08General movement of the blades and any differences I observe in iaido.
16:36 General cutting.
Water bottles
Noodles
17:36 Medium Cutting
Wood
Side Strike Slap
21:17 Abuse
Baton into copper and steel
Tree Yeet
CSoD
29:40 Summary and Final Thoughts
Some notes to keep in mind.
THIS IS NOT SCIENCE
There are variations in hand made objects; these blades do not holistically represent all blades of their style or type.
There are an enormous amount of variables at play and the observations I take are subjective.
I practice but I am not an expert.
These are samples. Infer what bias you will from that.
There is more to katana or swords in general than these kinds of options. I am not covering different kinds of steel. I am not covering various lamination techniques. I am not covering the variability that can exist in heat treatments, different processes, or different harnesses of the same steel.
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I think there's a somewhat valuable thing established by Jkoo here. The Internet consensus is that it's risky buying inexpensive folded steel swords because the risk of creating flaws that weakens the blades is high. I think they've demonstrated that they, at least generally, do not have that problem with their products.
I think your reviews are about as scientific and consistent as they can be without a high-tech materials testing lab. You are also consistent in declaring your disclaimers, background, limitations, strengths, point of view and your humbleness. I am not so interested in Katanas but metallurgy and blade manufacture interest me. You may think you fail at the science but you succeed at everything else - your photography, your commentary, your sound editing and you have a very good voice.
Thank you for yet another fascinating and educational review. Cheers!
He gets pretty close to some traditional Japanese destructive testing for study of blades. And some of the differences improve the testing imo.
So I'd agree.
Hats off to JKOO and Matthew for contributing to this, what should be looked at as a longterm contribution to sword material/fabrication education. The most important insight gained here I think is the point of abuse where some swords break and others don't...rather than just watch all the swords being destroyed simply for the sake of showing it can be done.
This is why you need at least 2 swords. 1 through hardened sword made of spring steel or even better s5/ s7 shock steel as a beater daily cutter. And 1 traditionally made sword with folding and hamon for aesthetic value, maybe only used for iaido to preserve its looks.
Or If my brand works out you get one of my blades that's got a bainite spine and a martensite edge for rhe through hardened.
Howard clark if you got rhe money.
And a traditional hamon type blade.
You need three of each type....one to use, one to show off, and one to worship.
Same here, I have backyard cutter swords and decorative/collecter swords. Mostly, the price or sentimental value is the deciding factor. I will not use anything above $1000, even for soft targets. I got plenty spring steel and thru hardened sword to play with, no point damaging expensive stuff.
That was a very informative video. I really appreciate your detailed explanations. Thank you for taking the time to do the analysis, record your findings in detail and share them with us. Your videos really help my understanding and i've learned a lot from them. Thank you.
I personally believe you need a differentially hardened blade and something that simulates a spring tempered blade even if its a bainite spine and a martensite edge.
Even if you have a fancy bomb proof dojo beater type its still kind of a dojo beater in a sense. Differentially hardened blades like the traditional style fill certain roles the other types dont tho.
Folded is a nice thing to have. But isnt a must imo. But given the cost of some of the dedent quality folded swords available you can do some decent projects with them that match higher end builds or production pieces for their own kinda factor.
Blingy. Bit more traditional and if clayed then also serves the roles of a clayed blade. Just maybe not as durable as a non folded blade depending.
But whole reason im gonna do the bainite spine and martensite edge on nihonto blade replicas. Fits a specific role and niche.
Rare blessing. That the cheaper through hardened blades are better at hitting the stand seems like an excellent feature for beginners. My brother took a huge divot out of the cutting stand, he was shocked how much wood was sliced off. 🤣
Excellent video, even tho the results were basically what I expected, it was nice to see my thoughts replicated by your testing. And good on the manufacturer for sending 5 examples for your use with not a hell of a lot of upside on their end. I'll be contacting them to thank them personally.
Nice to see some budget priced blades getting a bit of love...
I'm a fan of spring steel for beginners, and I would have liked to seen an example of that.
But it is still very generous of them to donate the swords, no matter what kind of steel.
In my own experience through hardened swords of modern steel are basically indestructible. I always recommend them for new buyers looking to cut stuff for this reason.
This is one of my favorite videos for beginners I've seen yet. You took five very similar swords in terms of style and even price points, and isolated the key difference which was the steel. I cannot think of another reviewer who does it like this and I'd love to see similar comparisons, whether destructive or not. ie all of the Landsknecht blade sizes, etc. This style could also be fun with similar models, ie different 1796 Light Calvary replicas, etc. Great work!
Through hardened gang. Also... ANATHAR ♫
THROUGH HARDENED GANG!!
Spring steel still part of the through hardened gang?
@@kilianortmann9979 yup
This is a really good video. Incredibly informative.
Spectacular testing sir. This is some of the best, side by side that anyone has managed to put together. Awesome resource for beginners but I think a huge benefit to the sword community at large
Similar sentiments here. I love a good sword test. This was easily the most scientific and methodical test to date.
17:16 Woaah! Number 3 almost decapitated number 2 :|
Finally found some clues and answers to my questions. Please continue hard work in future 👍
My thought process, when this popped in youtube recommendation: " Oh sh*t. Not another sword know-it-all with their b*llshit theorie.... Wait. It's Matthew Jensen. Cool."
Excellent video
You could try scratching the swords with each other to reaffirm some are harder than others.
Filipino swordsmiths use interrupted quenching / differential quenching 5160 on water like KC Katanas, the result is suguha hamon without claying, they're pretty tough and durable
Excellent video!
This makes me think that parrying a strike with the edge of the blade is better for a traditionally made katana than trying to receive the blade with the flat and definitely not the mune. I’m wondering if the lamination technique of historic blades determined that.
Ne jamais parer avec le tranchant
@@alanBeard-dg8zs that’s just not true
I agree man. Imo, those who say parry/block is done with the flat or ,god forbid, the spine🙃🙃 instead of the edge in order to preserve the sharp edge are just ignorant and plain fantastical. They've clearly never seen the katana through destructive test and instead play around the idea of the sacred katana.
And yes, I know that the flat and spine can be used for defensive move, but that's more of a deflect instead of parry.
@@nguyentrunghieu5674 chips on the edge of the blade were considered very bad by the samurai. chips on the spine and side weren't considered detrimental and instead were appreciated as a kind of beauty mark. blocking with the edge was done, but usually considered only to be done out of necessity, both because of the damage to the edge and because if 2 edges clash there is a chance of the swords binding together. the most common way to use the katana to block was more of a deflection, you weren't really running around bashing mild steel croquet rods in samurai times. So I'm saying yes, it was done, but samurai also weren't destroying their blades on purpose like Matt is here. Also keeping in mind nihonto have a carbon content closer to 1055 than the 1080 tested here, and the spines of nihonto were also even softer than that due to selection of tamahagane pieces. if you see matts test on 1045 blades he has a very hard time breaking them by bashing the spine, it just bends. so untill he tests a tamahagane blade we're still just assuming what they were like based on modern steel examples.
Thanks , I found the video very interesting .
Great vid man! Glad someone made this video cause it's something I've been wondering about personally. Nice to have this info online for interested buyers.
Thank you very much for all these testing. Very informative.
Take an old snow shovel handle, jam it into an old mini Christmas tree stand. Cut the handle at belly button height. That way the noodle is fixed and you will get much cleaner cuts.
Have you ever had a Jkoo that you felt was worth keeping? Worth as a primary cutter? Also, good advice about the stand, that helps for sure, but Matt isn't comboing low nor driving trips. Wish he would :p
@KF1 that was the katana I "got good" with. Still in great shape too after years of use and some abusse.
@@erichusayn Nice
@KF1 a laminated (not requested, must have been from a botched prior customer as activity is much more prominent on one side than the other) unokubi zukuri at that. Very well done. Taken corners clean off the stand, my dad let go after a cut amd it flew 15ft and sunk 3-4" into the old 60s wood garage siding, along with me burying the blade well past the mune into stand more times than id like to admit and blade is still true, nothing loose, and the ito, if anything, has gotten tighter over the years. I'll do a 5 year check up video one of these days. I would definitely recommend for a beginner or an advanced cutter. Ive handled like a dozen of Karls and a couple of Dangers, and all of them were well made as well.
@@erichusayn Good to hear. That's an awesome deal. I've had poor experience with them, though often folks say how good they are when they get it right. Unexpected lamination must have been a welcome surprise.
Kudos on the courage and consistency..... those tests were not cheap by any measure!
This is why occasionally on historical blades you have a hardened mune.
The edge of the sword is
under compressive stress, meaning it takes more force to increase the curvature of the sword (=making the edge longer) relative to a stress-free edge to the breaking point.
The same for the back, just with the signs reversed.
If you hit something hard, the curvature will also increase. Your katana with the built-in stress will then bend less than it would in a stress-free state. The opposite happens if you hit with the mune, as now there is "less room" for failure so to speak. If you have a hardened mune, you can balance
You also have it for some additional reasons for styles that use alot of mune strikes and blocks. Lite the jutte hardened mune can Crack a sword edge and really mess up another sword striking yours.
Bought a Chinese-made through hardened t10 blade 12-14 years ago for about $125 Cdn. I have no training and cut terribly. I have sharpened out all but one edge roll and I’ve cut bottles, trees, plastic garbage cans, action figures, all sorts of stuff. Still straight as an arrow. I never try to break it, I’m a grownup now and I will never replace it if I do, but I can confirm if you’re a crappy backyard cutter ther through hardened t10s let you have fun and you can be confident it won’t blow up in your face.
I think through hardened, if available, would have been the samurai's choice for the Sengoku Jidai. Differential for Edo period.
They all have their pros & cons. Though I have found through trial & error that the height & eveness of the hamon has quite an impact on the durability of the edge on a duff hardened blade. While prettier the more erratic hamon with deep peaks & valleys can introduce a stress point. Whereas a shorter more even one can take more damage b4 it fails. Have noticed this at all Matt?
I have not seen a big difference in the impact of hamon on durability. Maybe another video.
I can say that I have lost more blades to snapping while quenching that have wilder hamon, like choji. Way less have cracked with suguha (water quench ). So that makes sense to me.
Great real-world testing...thank you!
I've always preferred though hardening. Everyone though hardens over here where I'm from. It's been the rage forever.
MATT.. Hardening is not main reason of not showing wear. It is the additives to the steels. For example, Chrom in some of the steels.. 14CR And 440 Stainless.. Please watch PHD Dr.Thomas and Blacksmith Illya with "The Works" . Illya explains what Folding does to impurities and that today's steels dont have impurities. So FOLDING IS JUST FOR THE LOOKS...
Wow, Mat your video has exceeded all expectations this time :) I think you convinced me to get a Hitatsura from JKOO. I already have enough through hardened katanas and I like them all. But Hitatsura will be the first one with amazing hamon line.
Glad to hear it!
Iv been waiting for a video like this for a long time thank you mathew for this informative video.
My pleasure!
Im actually not that surprised about those differentially hardened blades breaking after only one hit with the back. Now, I know they suffered damage prior, but my theory is that they would have fared the same even if that kind of hit was the first thing you did.
Since the edge steel is so hard, its also very brittle, and brittle materials are usually poorer when it comes to handling tension, which is exactly what happens to the edge when youre hitting an immovable object with the back.
It would be very interesting to see this theory of mine confirmed or debunked, but that would be a costly endeavor indeed :D
I'm surprised by the folded vs not. Great video!
Interesting video. 3 nice breaks on the same hit. 2 survive. I did see that coming.
Thanks for watching!
На мясе с костями надо проверять.
this is a really good topic, I'm going to enjoy this.
Great video! Been looking for information of this type.
Great video. 👍 Can't wait for it to go public so I can share it.
I remembered you trying to snap a 1045 differentially H. and it wouldn't snap, the low carbon made the spine very "iron like", i'm inclined to believe Japanese katanas behave more like that, and the high carbon trend isn't for every "recipe", or every smith
I saw a show called "weapon masters", but i can no longer find the katana episode, they tested a through hardened 1095, spring tempered if i remember correctly, against a hanwei , and the 1095 won, conspiracy me likes to thinks thats the reason i can't find said episode
I think thats correct, traditional japanese swords are found to have an edge hardness/carbon content around 1055-1060 steel. Because of how they selected tamahagane pieces the spine would have been much softer than any of the blades tested here.
Damn .. none of them have a Fuller.. can't remember the right word.
I wish they had fuller
blood groove! just kidding, its the bo-hi.
love this
love my jkoo
Great video idea.
This was a fantastic review. Myths get propagated quite easily over and over through time and it was nice to have an at least SOMEWHAT (lol) scientific enough test model to confirm/deny somethings we think we know. Thanks to you and JKOO for putting this together.
MATT... Your talking amd testing swords WITHOUT DEFINING WHAT TYPE OF STEEL THE SWORD IS.. Is it 440 Type Steel or A Chinese 13CR. Type steel. Explain T10.. Without Knowing the TYPE OF STEEL. Is like TALKING ABOUT CARS WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT WHAT ENGINE THE CAR HAS IN IT.. I like you Matt and watch your channel. Im trying to help you do more informtive tests..
He mentioned they were ‘T10’ with different heat treatments. This video seems intended to share some anecdotal thoughts, with some video evidence, on how 5 common blade styles performed side by side in a durability test. The deep dive into the steel is probably more appropriate for a video about Lanquan forges as a whole, since they all claim T10 for many of their swords. It’s also somewhat well known that T10 swords are actually made from T8, since it can be differentially hardened much easier without warping.
@@alexwilmes9496 Yes Matt did mentiom T10 but without expanding on what that means. Nothing on tyoe of Stainless on the others.. INGREDIENCE is Very Important..How much Chrom is it Chinese 13cr or American 440c. Why Stainless gives up edge retention bs say 1095.. Genious Blacksmith Illya with "The Wotks" has a very good video on folding what it and doesnt do.. Genius Dr Thomas a PHD on metals that jas created Magna cut steel.. Trying to make a steel that trys to capture all three needs. 1) Edge Retention, 2)Toughness 3) Corrosion resistance....Skall was the start but there is more to know...Matt's channel is to the point he needs to expand from just backyard breaking.. He is good enough to learn and teach steels and how important "The Type Of Engine" is in the car.. With that I REALLY Like Matt.. Such great guy.. Great ASMR.. So relaxing.. I just want Matt to learn and expand a more on steel...
@@candyshop84106considering the forges don’t even correctly list the blades as T8, there is no way of knowing the exact specs of the steel stock that they use. You can look up t8 and learn what it is in broad strokes, but that’s about as much as you’d know.
Can you tell me what type of "high carbon steel" they used in folding? I went to their website and I only saw one sword (made with folded metal and in the price range you listed) and it said it was 1050. I usually see 1050 steel associated with "cheap swords*. I'm surprised and impressed if the folded steel, through-hardened sword that survived the Croquet Stick of Doom was 1050 steel.
*I admit to being a rank newbie, maybe I've been looking at too many cheap sword manufacturers...
From my reading experience, they usually fold the 1045, cheap and easy, if what cold steel machetes say its correct, they are made of 1050, and they are strong, any destruction test i saw its impressive, hard to thing 5 more % in carbon can make such difference, but i will still want yo believe 1060, 5160 and 9260 when spring tempered, are the most durable one, those CS machetes may be 1060 and i'm just confused
@@Superiorlumbago9260thats 0.5% diff. The reason that 0,6%C is max C for toughness oriented blades is because above this threshold the C no longer dissolves and instead creates iron carbides troughout the blade, these serve as stress risers.
Lower carbon steels are easier to forge and grind and therefore cheaper. They are also much tougher.
Might be helpful to add chapters if you want people who want to skip forward.
I think any difference in sharpness will directly impact the chip out on the copper rod. A deeper chip will create a higher chance of a snap.
I don't understand the difference between mono steel and folded steel. I'm assuming mono steel comes as barstock with a specific rating. What is folded steel, a mixture of different steels?
Folded is generally just them taking the same mono steel stock and heating + folding and then hammering back out to shape.
Aka damascus steel
@@alexwilmes9496 i believe you need to use 2 different steel in order to have a visual pattern. I know I've seen 1065/1095 mixes mentioned, which is probably the most common. to get the really vibrant patterns a steel with a nickel content is typically used, but that wouldn't work great in a sword.
@@Born_Stellar No, stacks of one will suffice. Bathing it in a mild acid brings out where the layers are by highlighting the carbon displacement on the fold lines and makes it more visible. I have a folded 1095 sword that is like this.
excellently Done Matthew
thank you sir
Hitatsura looks beautiful
I wonder why japanese didnt really make katanas through hardened traditionally?
i'm guessing they figured out differential hardening was more durable. Better to have a slightly bent blade than a snapped off one.
@@Born_Stellar Is through hardening not more durable? I was under the impression through hardened spring steel was far more durable. or was it a matter of steel quality or what?
@@vgamedude12 yeah im guessing its the quality of steel we have now. I've heard old katana had an edge carbon content of about 1055-1060, however the spine would have been much softer due to how they used different pieces of tamahagane. If you look at his 1045 destruction videos I think thats closer to what they made back then, and you'll see that the sword just bends instead of snapping. tbh I'm surprised through hardened blades are stronger, thats just how much better the steel is.
@@Born_Stellar what do I look up to find that video?
@@vgamedude12 this guy's channel we are on right now. www.youtube.com/@Matthew_Jensen/search?query=1045
What are the colors of the silk? Is it synthetic silk or real Japanese silk?
I would guess synthetic
MATT.. So you tested some cars on the race track without saying what type engine they had ..Hardening is very important and that was good distinction. But Need to know what type engines your cars had in them.
To hell with jkoo ! Ordered from them, Got NOTHING, they acted like they couldn't care.
Will never try them again!
What happened?
While technically thru hardened blades don't hold an edge as long as the dual hardened ones and at a lower temp ...they're more than fine at holding an edge for years even with long cutting sessions. And they can take more of a beating. I'd rather have a thru hardened blade over a dual hardened one for battle any day.
MATT.. Im going to Assume that at the price point of these swords they are made of Chinese 13CR steel. Or an American 440C. Not a 1090 or 1060 or other any alloys in the Steel. This detail of type steel is VERY IMPORTANT.. Your talking about cars without knowing what kind of engine it has. Like the showing of how a soft spine can bend..
The non-folded are noted as T10 in the description and in the video. I am not sure what the folded blades include but I will ask and add it to the video. Do you think the steel type will change the general advice taken from this video?
@@Matthew_Jensen @alexwilmes9496 Yes Matt did mentiom T10 but without expanding on what that means. Nothing on tyoe of Stainless on the others.. INGREDIENCE is Very Important..How much Chrom is it Chinese 13cr or American 440c. Why Stainless gives up edge retention bs say 1095.. Genious Blacksmith Illya with "The Wotks" has a very good video on folding what it and doesnt do.. Genius Dr Thomas a PHD on metals that jas created Magna cut steel.. Trying to make a steel that trys to capture all three needs. 1) Edge Retention, 2)Toughness 3) Corrosion resistance....Skall was the start but there is more to know...Matt's channel is to the point he needs to expand from just backyard breaking.. He is good enough to learn and teach steels and how important "The Type Of Engine" is in the car.. With that I REALLY Like Matt.. Such great guy.. Great ASMR.. So relaxing.. I just want Matt to learn and expand a more on steel...
I feel like this question only serves a purpose in a historical context
not really since none of these swords are anything like traditional katana. A differentially hardened 1045 or 1060 would be closer.
This is the definitive video! Finally! The argument is over! This video has been needed to be done for the longest time! I'm all in on thru hardened swords! Westerns for the win!