You sound like the narrator of "Mt. Everest: Francys Arsentiev" doing an american accent. A very comforting voice perfect for helping one digest 23 minutes of gain staging wisdom!
Man... I am ever glad I found this... Finally, I get it... As a singer-songwriter who began recording in the late 60's (I still have the 7 1/2" reel to reel of my first demo done at Trident Studios/London in 1969), it has been incredibly difficult for me to understand/process analogue versus digital recording. Thank you for keeping this straightforward and accessible and totally understandable.
I'm super green, working on my very first DAW recording. I was way too hot. Thanks, your expertise saved me at a critical time. Cross your fingers for me everyone! I'll do the same for you 😀
Justin, just went thru this video a second time, it made even more sense.. thank you so much... thanks for being out there, you're the best of the best.. !
Hey Justin, thank you for this tutorial. I wish I had found it about six years ago. Your explanation was very clear without any extraneous talking. You answered many of the questions that would toy with me in the pass. As a result of your explanations here, I want to get your paid courses now.
I really appreciate this rundown! I like -18dbfs for peak (transient tracks) and avg. level for lead vocals, low end, music tracks, etc. My combined peak level @ the master bus usually lives around -6 dbfs. Anything over is very informative that something in the balance needs to be tamed. I find that while producing you will be mixing and leveling content anyway so I welcome it. We may as well make it intentional. And actually, you could make it a calibrated standard for yourself. When you work at a certain expectation of level, your plugin chains & processing can be calibrated to a predictable input level and abused if desired! Thank you Justin for the input on this conversation. I think everyone can glean and eventually find a standard that works best for themselves.
Great point Collins! Shooting for -18dBFS AVERAGE level is great for sustained signals, but for bright transient percussive tracks (especially high percussion), that could be pretty loud, and you may want those signals to be a bit quieter. There, -18 PEAK could be more sensible. I kind of started to elude to that in the episode but could have hammered that distinction to make it even more clear. Thanks for the comment! Great addition. -Justin
@@SonicScoop Thanks Justin! And tbh with ourselves, this is all subject to taste. -18 avg. level happens to be what I consider "the most frontward part of my mix & production balance" but everything else can simply be lower than that and be fine balance-wise. It's just nice to have a measurement that some parts of the mix are "tapping" the -18 dbfs at minimum or in other words, tapping the front of the mix. I'm thinking about picking up one of your courses btw. I've really liked hearing your approach over the years.
Glad to hear Collins! I think you'll enjoy them. In the unlikely you don't, just ask for your money back, and I'll never even know about it :-) Thanks again for weighing in. -Justin
I love this video. Justin, you bring a sense of calm and reason to these discussions that I personally feel is not only refreshing but renewing! Appreciate all of your hard work. Thank you for sharing
You are the GOAT! Now I can approach gain staging more creatively and technically. I have some conferences next year but I will take you mixing course. I appreciate you Justin. Thanks!
In my mix preparations I always measure only the bass track with the VU meter. For all other tracks I do the gain staging visually using the waveform with the bass track as a reference. Super fast and accurate enough.
That totally works! Doesn't have to be complicated. If you shoot for your bass to hit 0 average on a VU you are likely hitting around -18 dBFS average on your digital peak meters. If you just do the bass to a meter and then adjust gains even by ear around that, you could be in a pretty good place. Kick can also work for this. Thanks for the good comment. -Justin
@@SonicScoop And if you execute a balanced static mix in this context, you will be quick and easy in a very good shape! Great piece of advice for the millennial engineers!!!
Balancing the faders is most important to start, then around that I put together the mixing and mastering as I continue, because I do both for the client. People are very happy. 23 years experience in and out of professional world.
Great, great piece of advice for the millennial engineers and students which didn't have the opportunity of recording and mixing on professional analog audio gear!!!
I found that I typically end up with levels at about -12dB Peak. So I built a template that has an input gain set to -12dB and simply normalize everything. All tracks peak at -12dB and are close (enough) to -18dB RMS. I get instant gain staging this way. Simply normalize everything. It's got the 012dB gain set as the first thing it hits. I've not had to make that dreaded decision of whether to drop the master fader or all of the instrument /group faders since making this change.
I set my vocals to around -12db to - 16db .12db are my peaks I like the tone I get better out of my preamps in my Apollo rather than -18. Then any instance of a plugin I add I listen to make sure the volume remains the same as I toggle the bypass button and repeat that move as I add each plugin in the chain. I get beautiful results with my vocal sound in LUNA using that technique. Magical vocal tone . Draws you right in. I only record vocals so I can't say how it works with other instruments. Thanks for addressing these topics . You help shave years off the learning process. Then I put the Sonible Smart limiter on my Master. I Love It. Sets my levels for You Tube , Spotify etc. Couldn't be happier with that Plugin.
Thanks a lot for the information! I've been running in circles for quite a while regarding gain staging and this finally put and end to it! One thing that i don't understand is why some engineers use a VU meter to gain stage and not an RMS meter which also informs peaks (or maybe both).
EXCELLENT!!! I knew this and that about the subject, but the way you explained it and connected the dots, was awesome. Now I understand it much better. THANKS!
Thank you for sharing this video. I can't believe I was doing it already live on a mixer I should of done that. I got the a ha moment. Hello from San Jose, CA (Bay Area)
Thanks Justin for delving into something that’s been of great interest to me lately as I’ve been getting into channel strip plugins. Would love to see a follow up with how DAWs use floating point processing, so you don’t have to worry about a low signal being of insufficient resolution.
talking about different stages to apply gain: in sylvia masseys book she was talking about having her 1073 on super quiet and then cranking through two compressors, so effectively all the gain took place there rather than in the pre
Hardly run-of-the-mill, as things go. Love her approach and the sounds she comes up with, with the rules discarded, or writing her own. Should read it, thanks.
@@jeremybarnes7873 i do recommend it! there's so much stuff i never heard on youtube tutorials // gearspace chats etc. Really inspiring for creative engineering
Thank you Justin for sharing your knowledge with us. You are also a very good teacher... not everyone has that ability! I co-owned a commercial studio in San Diego back in the 80's with a 24 track tape machine and a Neve console. I remember when DAT tape machines, and ADATs were invented... Midi was brand new, cords everywhere... So much easier now with plug-ins. We then called them 'outboard gear'... I was not an engineer but I could get around on the board a little... I had people working for me so didn't have to know but I need to know now... So thank you. Sharon 😀
Rad Kenneth, give it a shot and let me know how it works out. Depending on genre and how you mix, a somewhat higher or lower target could end up making sense for you after some experimentation. But this is a great first starting place to try, and could end up being the place for you. Let us know what you find! -Justin
Gainstaging to me was never confusing, but rather the unfun thing that i conviniently (or however its spelled) overlooked 😁 and i tried many ti es to pay attention to ot bit allways failed and got lazy about it. A few months back i decided to give it full attention and work it into my workflow. And now..i get more consistent productions than ever before. I’m on Ableton, so what i do is this; i made a simple effects rack with 3 plugins in them..1: utility 2: Vu meter 3: eq8. And i have macromapped the utility gain to a macro knob to work as intended (just looks cooler with that single big knob😁) that gain is set to -10db. This effect rack is loaded as default with every new audio and midi track. The only one i so etimes need to change is the kick and bass to make them hit 0VU which is set to -18. supereasy and i dont ever have to think about it now..it’s just there automatically 👍
Great advice. So a utility on every track to gain stage each track to eg -10db. What about the output faders on each track. Do you keep them at 0 or do you also put them to -10db ? What about the fader on the master track ? Do you keep that set to 0db or also to -10db ?
One good thing to do before gain staging: Fix the phase rotation if it's off, that way you will gain headroom you didn't know you're missing, and not hit your processing too hot without realizing due to peak level being read wrong.
Never really much of an issue, but the latest craze as of late it seems. Maybe you can help though. What is the minimum rx product that supports this function?
@@NeilZ2k15 It's been done for a long time, and can make a big difference to end results, especially for itb mixes which are less forgiving of clipping plugins. It's just not spoken about enough. Minimum rx product that supports it? rx elements?
I like my higher crest instruments hitting a maximum sample peak of -9. -12 if they’re redundant. And for the rest of the tracks an average of -20 RMS. Some projects require aiming 2 or 4 db lower. After researching and practicing and reading the Bob Katz book I settled there.
Thanks for the great comment Carlos. That's a totally fair way to go. If you are working with dynamic material, especially with physical instruments, and really want to avoid limiting and bus processing entirely in the mixing stage, an even more conservative approach like this is totally valid. Thanks for weighing in, -Justin
Excellent tutorial! Thank you sir!! The issue I have, in my rookie recording phase, is when I lower the input gain to the -12 to 18, I lose all "overdrive"... it becomes just a clean jazz tone... not sure how to lower input gain to satisfy the "no clipping" rule, while maintaining the heavy rhythm and lead "metal" tones I'm looking for.
I have just started using a VU meter and went back to some of my previously recorded instrumentals. Because the dynamic range on tracks fluctuate up and down I ended up using the Peak function on the meter for setting the track levels. I zeroed all faders and soloed each track and aimed for around -6 to -5 Peak range by altering wav gain and that seemed to work out well. The bass tracks needed to be lower than -18 otherwise they were too loud. My guitar solos were so loud in comparison even reducing the wav file to nothing virtually they were ultra loud. When I played it with plug-ins ect it was too hot so I knocked back the gain on compressors to drop the level. I have ended up with peak of -0.5 dbsf and the master fader shows -3.8. 😀
So I'm posting this comment looking for some engagement because I'm curious what other folks perspective is here. I am working with a band to produce their album (alt-rock/punk) currently and we were doing bass guitar tracking yesterday so I bought Waves VU meter to test with this. My aim was to average the incoming signal between -18 and -21 based on this info, with high peaks averaging between -12 through -15. My findings were this outcome was VERY CONSERVATIVE and the tracks honestly to me sounded kind of lifeless. I will say that in the 5 tracks we recorded, the bus they dumped into did yield good results in terms of peak level on the meter and the averaged levels displayed on the VU meter. From this, I feel like for managing bigger projects, this can be an effective gain staging method, but I would honestly be very nervous to track at these levels with sources requiring more high frequency detail and content. I could be doing things wrong, Loudness has always been a struggle and I frequently feel like I'm fighting dynamics to get things louder and maintain dynamic realistic quality. So in situations like this, I feel like I'm fighting, compressing, using clippers/limiters, just to squish things I don't want to EVEN before what's supposed to be a mastering stage's job. I'm currently using the Waves WLM plus loudness metering plugin to mix the album for the Spotify/TH-cam (-14) preset since that's where this album will be streamed. I think in smaller projects, I'd prefer to track with my conventional wisdom to keep peaks between -10 through -12, but I can be flawed/wrong in my logic, hence my request for engagement here. See my tracking notes below as well Bass DI (Eden WTDI Preamp Out ) - Pre-Pedal Board D.I Bass AMP DI out - Post-Pedal Board D.I Bass Room Mic (WA87 R2) Bass Mic on 15 inch Speaker - Audio Technica ATM63HE (Center Cone) Bass MIc on 12 inch Speaker - EV RE-20 (Center Cone)
Hi Garrett-how hot you track should have little to no bearing on how lifeless/dark/bright/vibrant a sound will be all by itself. Whether you record at -20 or -2 peak level shouldn’t have much of an effect on that at all, assuming the only difference is your preamp gain. There may be a very slight difference in the sound of a piece of vintage analog gear at those two levels, but not enough for it to go from being “lifeless” to “alive”. The goal with tracking at -18 average level is so that transient peaks don’t risk going much higher than -12 to -6, keeping you away from clipping converters. You can feel free to track harder than this as long as you aren’t clipping converters significantly on the way in. But that’s not enough to make a lifeless sound stop feeling lifeless. My general recommendation is to track things so that each new instrument added sounds like it is part of a finished mix from the moment you record, without having to adjust anything significantly later. That’s the ideal. This requires good sound selection, and as you get more confident, potentially compression and EQ on the way in. The ultimate goal of recording with a DI and 2 mics on an amp should be to pick and choose and blend between them to get the perfect bass sound on the way in, with no need to juggle between them later. That said, if you are just starting out, or recording with the goal of giving someone else more options to mix with later on because you don’t trust yourself, you might ignore this advice for now and just record all three separately rather than trying to craft an ideal sound right now. But the ideal is to craft your ideal sound right now. You are unlikely to get that by having equal level of bass DI and three different amp mics all mixed together. You are much more likely to get that by using just one or two of those sources. The most common approach on 80-90% of your favorite records is going to be DI, or DI complemented by a small portion of just one mic. (Be aware that the phase relationship between these two sources can significantly affect the tone.) The other 10-20% of your favorite bass sounds may be dominated by one mic instead. This could be by itself, or complimented by DI, or a second mic in rarer cases. Or it could be a blend between effected and unaffected DIs or something. You definitely do not need two DIs and three mics going in to get a great bass sound, and in my experience this approach is more likely to hurt than to help. If you want a vibrant, finished sound going in, then it’s your responsibility to create one. Not to record everything possible and just hope for the best :-) Don’t worry. We all go through that stage! I hope this is helpful. Keep on tracking, Justin PS: multimic setups are more common on electric guitar, but once again are not necessary. So many of your favorite guitar sound recorded with a single mic. When you do record with multiple mics on guitar, the ideal is to pick between them or get a good blend of them to get the perfect sound going in. Not to just record them all the same level, cross your fingers and hope for the best. Most of us learn that the hard way! So you are not alone :-)
@@SonicScoop Hey Justin, I really appreciate the detail of your response here. I will most likely just end up utilizing 1 DI and 2 mics, but wanted to capture multiple end points for experimentation. I'd rather have the data to work with than not. Thanks
thanks so much for the clear explanation. one thing, sometimes the VU meter just doesn't correspond with -18 DBFS, could you explain why that might be please?
Novice mixer question I would appreciate any help with-- Lets say I already have a project session going on in Ableton that's pretty hot. Master occasionally hitting red. Main elements like the kick drum hitting like -3db, etc... What's my best course of action to get to -18db? Select all tracks and just drag down the faders? Or throw a gain plugin on every channel? Keeping in mind this project session is the 'demo/jam session' basically for sketching out the basic idea of the song. I'll usually create a different session when it comes time to mix. Is gain staging something to even worry about during the demo process of a song?
Not a pro but been at it a minute and I would say it is a good rule of thumb any time your running into any board wether recording or live. Having your average or RMS at -18 will give your peaks plenty dynamic range without clipping. If you don’t have your average at at least -18 it will usually wash out in the mix. Once you do this, if you have any peaks poking out, wether it be clipping or just poking out the mix, that’s when you apply peak reduction, be it a limiter, compressor or clipper. If you get these level for each track in this range it will all fall into place and the song will start to breathe. Don’t over compress or limit, that will only steal that breath. This is when your eq skills will make or break you. If at the start you apply these simple techniques of -18 RMS, I promise you will hear and feel the difference. Good luck and one more thing. Mixing is actually the easy part. Recording is the real challenge, it’s not as glamorous or fun, but capturing a performance at the right level, paying close attention to mic selection, mic placement and the sound of your environment is a thousand times more important than what compressor you’re going to use once you get to the mix. A lot of times when a track is recorded properly, very little processing is needed. Hope this helps and good luck! Don’t give up, it takes time and listen listen listen, “use your ears” will make more sense down the road
the important thing is use ears into a limiter post fader 2 bus top down is a good way for energy esp in rock drum based stuff also edm, get used to hearing distortion clipping saturation etc and decide what stays what goes, we learn by mistake too :) clean is good grit is good just how much always
Gain is the most important thing in the record path, down the road it is levels you have to be concerned about. No red’s on plug-ins, busses and master bus and output; you can always lower levels…
What if you tracked using RMS between 20-15? Using this Klanghelm VUMT has standard -18db and also has RMS Meter +3dB shouldn’t I use the VUMT RMS? But what is the sweet spot on this plugin RMS meter? Is it still 0 where the red is? Or is it around -12 in the black? Ty
Would be nice if someone would just demonstrate step by step how to set the gain rather than just talking about it. I'm totally new to this and I've watched many videos now and a few touch on setting the faders to 0. What I want to know is does this mean the very first thing to do is set the faders to 0 and then bring up the gain until you get -18db? Nobody has actually said this so I'm having to surmise.
So you are saying maybe set the track at 0 with signal input averaging at -22 for drums. Then when tracking the bass set the track at 0 and record the input signal wherever it sounds good like maybe -20. And so on tracking guitars, synthesizer, vocals. Building the mix as you go keeping tracks at 0 during your first pass of tracking.
At 15:11 you mentioned to gain stage before you hit any of the plugins for example a compressor, reverb, saturation etc… you think it’s a good idea to do a second gain stage in a mix after you put in all your plugins then??
I have a question - what if you’re given a project where they have recorded audio, lots of samples that are high, lots of midi tracks going on, as WELL as volume automation going on in many tracks. What’s the fastest most efficient way to gain stage this? 😅 feels like a nightmare. Would it perhaps be best to bounce everything in place and then do the “normalize region gain option?” What if they give it to you and say they “like where the levels are sitting.” Is there then a way to collectively just bring everything down so that there’s head room on the master? Otherwise it’s just a nightmare to go through every individual track to try to hit -18dbfs. There’s gotta be a simple efficient way!? 😂
Excellent video, the problem that I have, is that when i gain down a channel to -18db when using external loops or samples, the audio (sample/loop) seems to loose their energy or resolution at this level, do you know why? also the RMS will go way down that at the end of a mix, i will have to push a limiter almost all the way up to recover some RMS or to bring the mix to a decent volume level. Could you help. . Thanks for your teachings.
There can only be two reasons for this: 1. Louder just sounds better! That’s it. Because of the Fletcher, Munson curve, listening louder also makes us hear more lows and highs. 2. When it’s mixed hotter you are hearing any limiters or saturators or other processors on the master bus hitting it harder. Sometimes, more limiting or saturation or other processing will sound better too. Hope that helps! -Justin
dope video! lets say your master bus is clipping, what's to stop you from selecting every track and lowering all faders by the same amount until you're no longer clipping?
That can work too, yes. But it's made more awkward if you have any fader automation going already. And you'll potentially still be driving some types of inserted plugins harder than is optimal or convenient for workflow. In extreme cases you may even still clip the inputs plugins on buses until you make further adjustments. And if you're using motorized faders or a fader GUI, the control becomes a little less fine if the faders are tucked far down. But it can work, absolutely! I've done it many, many times. But I'd argue that the workflow benefits of doing this with clip gain, a gain plugin or trim plugin make those approaches superior and no more time consuming. Hope that helps, Justin
Thanks for this incredible tutorial Justin! Listen I have a theory about something called the "Loudness War": Was it even a war at all - or more about a misunderstanding of gain staging, long before tutorials such as this, that let to the phenomenon of super-loud, mushy sounding CDs, and digital downloads, after the 1990s? I know, as a tech, to always 'aim for zero' in metering. So I'm theorizing that a lot of engineers in the 1990s and after simply didn't understand the concept of zero as an average(analog) vs zero as a peak(Full-scale in digital). Your thoughts on this?
Very nice video explaining very well. hummm... I am a beginner and I have checked a lot of videos and it may have confused me... I aimed at -6 dB on my recording of my instruments because I saw some people proposed that (in logic pro, it's the begging of the yellow part. It's not clipping for sure, but maybe I don't get a lot of headroom). Maybe they were referencing to peak at - 6 dB and I should have understood average at -18 dB. I gain staged simultaneously aiming that - 6dB on the channel, but also using Wave Vu meter so that the level doesn't exceed 0 on this. I am not sure it is a good idea to gain stage with the Vu meter AND the level of the channel... I may have been confuse here again, as I begin to understand that those are separate thing, and to not exceed 0 on the vu meter is the thing to check after saturation, or at the bus, mix bus, or stereo out...??? I tend to ajust gain in the output of the plugin, or adding a gain plugin before or after the other plugins, so that it stays at -6 dB. Is it correct? Maybe I just should rebegin all again just to make everything is at -18 dB on the level meter, and not check the Vu meter? oh well... thanks
Yes, the idea is that shooting for an AVERAGE level of -18 should get you peaks that are below 0. (Potentially as low as -6, but it depends on the material.) Hope that helps! -Justin
@@SonicScoop Strange, Im using an averaeg EDM kick - calibrating my Waves VU meter to -18 and the Lindell SBC to -18dbFS (from -14 default) with it and both are smashing the VU meters +3 VU with a edm kick drum that peaks at about -8 db .. so please help me put this matter to sleep what do I do?
You recommend -18dBFS for track input level. So, how do you reconcile that with a K-14 meter? Does this mean that you aim for 4dB below the '0' point on the K-14 meter? Would it be a problem to use -14dBFS as your track input level?
The -14 target is generally a recommendation for delivering a very dynamic final master, not a a recording target, or even a mix target necessarily. However, in practice, the vast majority of commercial masters are much louder than -14 with anywhere from -13 to -5 LUFS being more common, depending on genre. Here's an episode with more detail on loudness targets for mastering: th-cam.com/video/wtoB6oj_xRw/w-d-xo.html Hope that helps! -Justin
I’ve been confused on those numbers. By the final master I want it to hit at least -11 or -10. If I shoot for -18 on the mixbus how do I reach -7 db of makeup gain on the master without overdoing the final master limiter ?
The secret is that you let the limiter do some limiting :-) The other secret is that commercial releases have more dynamic range control on them at other stages than you might expect. There may be other stages of dynamic range in the mix even before mastering, as well as additional stages of dynamic range control in the master, such as saturation, soft clipping, fast attack compressors, de-essers and multiband processors and so on. The mixes that go loud the best are mixes that are hot at the mixing stage. This can be achieved by using sample augmentation, bus processing, individual track processing and the like so that whatever your average level is, your peaks are not 18 dB hotter than your average signal by the time you're done with the mix! Then, the mastering engineer doesn't have to do 7 or 8 dB of dynamic range control on the loudest transient peaks control to get you to -10 or -11 LUFs. But yes, to get final masters that loud, that dynamic range control has to occur SOMEWHERE. This can occur in the form of using sampled and electronic instruments as primary or supporting elements, it could mean compressing and limiting live played instruments more than you think you "should", and it could mean several layers of dynamics processing (individual instrument, sub group, mix bus, and mastering) to get there. The dirty secret is that vocals on most major commercial releases are generally compressed by at LEAST 10-20 dB cumulative... and that's BEFORE mastering! Mixing to average at -18 is a great place to START. But as you gain confidence with dynamics processing you don't have to stay there. And even if you keep your average level there, you don't have to settle for transient peaks that are 18 dB hotter than your average level. That would be practically unheard of in a final commercial release in any popular genre. I hope that helps! -Justin
Hi Justin, thanks for the very interesting video. I usually have the same problem and don't know what I'm doing wrong. I measure with a VU meter the input signals of the tracks, all faders at 0. Every time I mix I end up at -5dbVU but it is still too quiet. The average level is mostly at -23 dbVU but the peaks are at -8 dbVU. Now when I start mastering the song I already have the maximizer at -13dbVU only to get -12LUFS. I can't even get close to -9LUFS. I work a lot with digital keyboards and drum loops. Do all instruments need to be compressed each time to get a higher average volume?
Hi Michael, a couple of the biggest tricks here will be: 1 managing low end. It’s hard to get things clean and loud if the lows are excessive and 2. Applying more limiting. Most records that are as hot as -10 or louder are going to have a bunch of limiting applied. This might not be all at the stereo bus level either. Your individual subgroups and tracks may want compression and/or limiting. Records that are -10 to -5 LUFS are going to have substantial dynamic range control going on. More than they’re “supposed to”. Hope that helps! -Justin
When u say -18 do u mean -18 the peak level or -18 RMS? Like so if im recording a guitar into my interface would i set the gain so its -18 RMS or just the peak? And the same for other tracks?
A problem I've always had when trying to gain stage is, if I set everything to -18 dbfs the drums are so quiet you can barely hear them and the guitars dominate everything else, if they are all at the same volume how can that be?
It’s not a out getting everything individually to -18. It’s about getting the entire mix to -18. To do this your kick and bass might be close to -18 average, but your guitars and cymbals might be much lower than that on average. Hope that helps! -Justin
Love your channel but wanted to say that if faders are left at 0 wouldn’t you have to have a plugin with a gain to raise db for optimal input into the plugin thus raising the noise floor of the audio file?
Plugins are usually before the fader. Also you can use clip gain to gainstage, which is likely the best way so that you can keep good fader resolution, which is another thing to consider (as the fader gets lower, it goes from 10db steps to 5db steps within the same amount of movement, so half the res).
@@UncleBenjs all this relying on plugins input options = more processing + added noise floor. I’m sure things like clip gain or perhaps using the output of a plugin if it has output options. Either way you’re getting noise floor differences.
Question. Let's say you are mixing and the vocal track provided is below -24 dBfs avg., is it good practice to use clip gain (ProTools) to increase the average to about -18dBfs avg. before starting the mix, e.g., balancing tracks, adding plugins, etc.?
Here's what's confusing: On the DAW fader there is a mark for Zero, and then 6 dB headroom above, and 36 dB below until the fader is marked at the bottom with the Infinity symbol, signifying No Level at all. When it's said that the DAW (and also a plugin) is Calibrated to -18 dBFS, does that mean that Zero on the fader/meter is -18 dBFS (and therefore one should try to hit Zero, just like on an analog board), or does it mean that one should still aim for a reading of 18 dB on the DAW fader/meter? This would be sort of the opposite or inverse of what Justin (and many others) have said. In other words, instead of, "Negative 18 on your digital meter corresponds to Zero dB in the analog domain," doesn't this business about Calibrating actually mean that Zero on my Digital meter/fader corresponds to -18 dB in the analog world?
-18 PEAK would be pretty quiet for things like vocals and guitars. But -18 AVERAGE (RMS) would not be quiet at all. There, you'd probably have peaks as high as -6 or so potentially. I did make that distinction in the episode but could have hammered it even harder. That said, you can track louder than -18 AVERAGE if you like to. But the hotter than that you go, the more likely you are to need a limiter or run into clipping buses down the line. If you DID misunderstand this advice and were recording -18 PEAK instead of -18 AVERAGE/RMS then your tracks would be fairly low.... but in the digital domain, that isn't really a problem at all. You can just turn them up from there with literally no issue. Hope that helps! -Justin
@@SonicScoopi cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your day to educate all of us and even responding to questions. Much respect and thanks!
Dude ,it might be so been as conservative might not be the case any single time ! If we stick to minus 18 we should be aware that we would add something later that originaly was not on original rec !!! A certain sum tracks or simply some add gain processor
Maybe i’m still confused on this or doing this wrong, but when I used a VU meter plugin and gain staged all my tracks to 0 (Using drum samples, loops and synths,) my kick is obnoxiously louder than say my bass and really the rest of the tracks. All the tracks are set to unity on the faders but it sounds like the kick is like 20 db louder than the bass and loop even though they’re all hitting 0 on the VU meter... ps Im using Ableton Live 10 and the Waves VU meter
Is it posible that you are measuring transient signals with RMS meter? I mean: high transient signals like drums are set at around -6dbfs PEAK. The rest of the signals (vocals, bass, gtr, etc) are set around -18dbfs RMS (average).
@@Paulnap Maybe? Id have to go back to that session and double check, I was kinda just experimenting with what he was saying by throwing on the VU meter on each channel and gain staging to that level, which is the result I got when I did it with the kick drum sample
OMG, we're back to this again ? -18 dBs right out of the gate ? I can't bear to listen to this anymore. Don't bother 'responding'. I'm unsubscribing, have a nice day. Bill P.
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I’ve watched a bunch of videos recently about gain staging, and for some reason this one clicked the most! Liked and subscribed!!
Awesome to hear! Glad to have you tuning in.
Very best,
Justin
Thanks Sonic. My kick is -18 and my tune is built around it. I learned it from you engineers, never went to engineering school. Im TH-cam educated
One of the best gain staging explanations I’ve ever viewed.
You sound like the narrator of "Mt. Everest: Francys Arsentiev" doing an american accent. A very comforting voice perfect for helping one digest 23 minutes of gain staging wisdom!
Man... I am ever glad I found this... Finally, I get it... As a singer-songwriter who began recording in the late 60's (I still have the 7 1/2" reel to reel of my first demo done at Trident Studios/London in 1969), it has been incredibly difficult for me to understand/process analogue versus digital recording. Thank you for keeping this straightforward and accessible and totally understandable.
I'm super green, working on my very first DAW recording. I was way too hot. Thanks, your expertise saved me at a critical time. Cross your fingers for me everyone! I'll do the same for you 😀
best explanation of gain staging on the internet
This channel is probably the only one that I actually push like on all vids. You guys are great
Justin, just went thru this video a second time, it made even more sense.. thank you so much... thanks for being out there, you're the best of the best.. !
Awesome to hear! Thanks so much for tuning in.
-Justin
Hey Justin, thank you for this tutorial. I wish I had found it about six years ago. Your explanation was very clear without any extraneous talking. You answered many of the questions that would toy with me in the pass. As a result of your explanations here, I want to get your paid courses now.
Awesome to hear Darion! So glad to be of help.
The free videos are good but I think the courses are even better :-) Hope you enjoy them!
-Justin
I really appreciate this rundown! I like -18dbfs for peak (transient tracks) and avg. level for lead vocals, low end, music tracks, etc. My combined peak level @ the master bus usually lives around -6 dbfs. Anything over is very informative that something in the balance needs to be tamed. I find that while producing you will be mixing and leveling content anyway so I welcome it. We may as well make it intentional. And actually, you could make it a calibrated standard for yourself. When you work at a certain expectation of level, your plugin chains & processing can be calibrated to a predictable input level and abused if desired! Thank you Justin for the input on this conversation. I think everyone can glean and eventually find a standard that works best for themselves.
Great point Collins! Shooting for -18dBFS AVERAGE level is great for sustained signals, but for bright transient percussive tracks (especially high percussion), that could be pretty loud, and you may want those signals to be a bit quieter. There, -18 PEAK could be more sensible.
I kind of started to elude to that in the episode but could have hammered that distinction to make it even more clear. Thanks for the comment! Great addition.
-Justin
@@SonicScoop Thanks Justin! And tbh with ourselves, this is all subject to taste. -18 avg. level happens to be what I consider "the most frontward part of my mix & production balance" but everything else can simply be lower than that and be fine balance-wise. It's just nice to have a measurement that some parts of the mix are "tapping" the -18 dbfs at minimum or in other words, tapping the front of the mix. I'm thinking about picking up one of your courses btw. I've really liked hearing your approach over the years.
Glad to hear Collins! I think you'll enjoy them. In the unlikely you don't, just ask for your money back, and I'll never even know about it :-) Thanks again for weighing in.
-Justin
I love this video. Justin, you bring a sense of calm and reason to these discussions that I personally feel is not only refreshing but renewing! Appreciate all of your hard work. Thank you for sharing
So awesome to hear! Glad it was helpful.
People need this video- for once a clear , direct , reasonable perspective, that takes the stress off the issue and puts you in the right mindset-
A great explanation of gain staging across the mix, and optimising/balancing all the individual track audio clips right from the start.
You are the GOAT! Now I can approach gain staging more creatively and technically. I have some conferences next year but I will take you mixing course. I appreciate you Justin. Thanks!
Was super eager to hear your thoughts on this. Thank you!
In my mix preparations I always measure only the bass track with the VU meter. For all other tracks I do the gain staging visually using the waveform with the bass track as a reference. Super fast and accurate enough.
That totally works! Doesn't have to be complicated. If you shoot for your bass to hit 0 average on a VU you are likely hitting around -18 dBFS average on your digital peak meters.
If you just do the bass to a meter and then adjust gains even by ear around that, you could be in a pretty good place. Kick can also work for this.
Thanks for the good comment.
-Justin
@@SonicScoop And if you execute a balanced static mix in this context, you will be quick and easy in a very good shape! Great piece of advice for the millennial engineers!!!
Balancing the faders is most important to start, then around that I put together the mixing and mastering as I continue, because I do both for the client. People are very happy. 23 years experience in and out of professional world.
Great, great piece of advice for the millennial engineers and students which didn't have the opportunity of recording and mixing on professional analog audio gear!!!
I found that I typically end up with levels at about -12dB Peak. So I built a template that has an input gain set to -12dB and simply normalize everything. All tracks peak at -12dB and are close (enough) to -18dB RMS. I get instant gain staging this way. Simply normalize everything. It's got the 012dB gain set as the first thing it hits. I've not had to make that dreaded decision of whether to drop the master fader or all of the instrument /group faders since making this change.
Yeah -12 is what I use so watching this was a bit strange lol. When he said max -14 I was like damn but each to their own
Can I get template
This is an extremely most clever video for Gain staging Thank you sir
On behalf of the autistic community, thank you for going into detail and ACTUALLY EXPLAINING WHY!
Sweet! Glad to be helpful.
I set my vocals to around -12db to - 16db .12db are my peaks I like the tone I get better out of my preamps in my Apollo rather than -18. Then any instance of a plugin I add I listen to make sure the volume remains the same as I toggle the bypass button and repeat that move as I add each plugin in the chain. I get beautiful results with my vocal sound in LUNA using that technique. Magical vocal tone . Draws you right in. I only record vocals so I can't say how it works with other instruments. Thanks for addressing these topics . You help shave years off the learning process. Then I put the Sonible Smart limiter on my Master. I Love It. Sets my levels for You Tube , Spotify etc. Couldn't be happier with that Plugin.
Thanks a lot for the information!
I've been running in circles for quite a while regarding gain staging and this finally put and end to it!
One thing that i don't understand is why some engineers use a VU meter to gain stage and not an RMS meter which also informs peaks (or maybe both).
Amazing, informative and easy to digest tutorial on gain staging!!
EXCELLENT!!! I knew this and that about the subject, but the way you explained it and connected the dots, was awesome. Now I understand it much better. THANKS!
One of the best explanations I've heard. Subscribed.
A wise choice James, congratulations on your subscription.
Thank you for sharing this video. I can't believe I was doing it already live on a mixer I should of done that. I got the a ha moment. Hello from San Jose, CA (Bay Area)
Excellent advice, Justin. So appreciate you taking the time on this :)
Good summary. Glad you caught the latest FL craze too. Keep up the great work. 👍
Keep making those 🔥 beats!
Excellent video Justin. Well explained, I will share this one with my friends 😉
I even liked how you talked about the sponsors :)
Digital limit analog target…makes more sense now thank you
Thank you for the detailed explanation!
Thanks Justin for delving into something that’s been of great interest to me lately as I’ve been getting into channel strip plugins. Would love to see a follow up with how DAWs use floating point processing, so you don’t have to worry about a low signal being of insufficient resolution.
Thanks! I've touched on this in other episodes, but could do one just on this idea potentially yes!
Thanks. A good, patient explanation.
so useful I am going to watch more stuff
The best video I ever seen about gain stage, you awesome!! thaks alot
talking about different stages to apply gain: in sylvia masseys book she was talking about having her 1073 on super quiet and then cranking through two compressors, so effectively all the gain took place there rather than in the pre
Hardly run-of-the-mill, as things go. Love her approach and the sounds she comes up with, with the rules discarded, or writing her own. Should read it, thanks.
I always aim for -14 ROFL 🤣
@@jeremybarnes7873 i do recommend it! there's so much stuff i never heard on youtube tutorials // gearspace chats etc. Really inspiring for creative engineering
Thank you Justin for sharing your knowledge with us. You are also a very good teacher... not everyone has that ability! I co-owned a commercial studio in San Diego back in the 80's with a 24 track tape machine and a Neve console. I remember when DAT tape machines, and ADATs were invented... Midi was brand new, cords everywhere... So much easier now with plug-ins. We then called them 'outboard gear'... I was not an engineer but I could get around on the board a little... I had people working for me so didn't have to know but I need to know now... So thank you. Sharon 😀
Thank you for tuning in Sharon! And for the kind words and your story :-)
-Justin
Hadn’t seen this before. I’m using the -18 kick starting point next mix.
Rad Kenneth, give it a shot and let me know how it works out. Depending on genre and how you mix, a somewhat higher or lower target could end up making sense for you after some experimentation. But this is a great first starting place to try, and could end up being the place for you. Let us know what you find!
-Justin
Thanks for making this video.
A pleasure!
Thanks for this video, very helpful
Gainstaging to me was never confusing, but rather the unfun thing that i conviniently (or however its spelled) overlooked 😁 and i tried many ti es to pay attention to ot bit allways failed and got lazy about it. A few months back i decided to give it full attention and work it into my workflow. And now..i get more consistent productions than ever before. I’m on Ableton, so what i do is this; i made a simple effects rack with 3 plugins in them..1: utility 2: Vu meter 3: eq8. And i have macromapped the utility gain to a macro knob to work as intended (just looks cooler with that single big knob😁) that gain is set to -10db. This effect rack is loaded as default with every new audio and midi track. The only one i so etimes need to change is the kick and bass to make them hit 0VU which is set to -18. supereasy and i dont ever have to think about it now..it’s just there automatically 👍
Great advice. So a utility on every track to gain stage each track to eg -10db. What about the output faders on each track. Do you keep them at 0 or do you also put them to -10db ? What about the fader on the master track ? Do you keep that set to 0db or also to -10db ?
One good thing to do before gain staging: Fix the phase rotation if it's off, that way you will gain headroom you didn't know you're missing, and not hit your processing too hot without realizing due to peak level being read wrong.
Never really much of an issue, but the latest craze as of late it seems. Maybe you can help though. What is the minimum rx product that supports this function?
@@NeilZ2k15 voxengo pha-979
@@NeilZ2k15 It's been done for a long time, and can make a big difference to end results, especially for itb mixes which are less forgiving of clipping plugins. It's just not spoken about enough. Minimum rx product that supports it? rx elements?
@@UncleBenjs does it really? I'd buy it just for that function if you're right.
Dont you do this to the two track mix before starting mastering? How would you go about doing it to individual tracks?
I like my higher crest instruments hitting a maximum sample peak of -9. -12 if they’re redundant. And for the rest of the tracks an average of -20 RMS. Some projects require aiming 2 or 4 db lower. After researching and practicing and reading the Bob Katz book I settled there.
Thanks for the great comment Carlos. That's a totally fair way to go. If you are working with dynamic material, especially with physical instruments, and really want to avoid limiting and bus processing entirely in the mixing stage, an even more conservative approach like this is totally valid.
Thanks for weighing in,
-Justin
@@SonicScoop you’re right my man! I try to avoid bus limiting at all costs. I wish your podcast had a spanish version for my students.
Apologies, no plans for Spanish at the moment, but maybe someday if we get enough requests! Thanks letting us know.
Thank you very much, i finally understood this thing
Very well-done informative video. Thank You!
This helped a lot, very well explained 👑❤️🔥
Excellent tutorial! Thank you sir!! The issue I have, in my rookie recording phase, is when I lower the input gain to the -12 to 18, I lose all "overdrive"... it becomes just a clean jazz tone... not sure how to lower input gain to satisfy the "no clipping" rule, while maintaining the heavy rhythm and lead "metal" tones I'm looking for.
I have just started using a VU meter and went back to some of my previously recorded instrumentals. Because the dynamic range on tracks fluctuate up and down I ended up using the Peak function on the meter for setting the track levels. I zeroed all faders and soloed each track and aimed for around -6 to -5 Peak range by altering wav gain and that seemed to work out well. The bass tracks needed to be lower than -18 otherwise they were too loud. My guitar solos were so loud in comparison even reducing the wav file to nothing virtually they were ultra loud. When I played it with plug-ins ect it was too hot so I knocked back the gain on compressors to drop the level. I have ended up with peak of -0.5 dbsf and the master fader shows -3.8. 😀
So I'm posting this comment looking for some engagement because I'm curious what other folks perspective is here.
I am working with a band to produce their album (alt-rock/punk) currently and we were doing bass guitar tracking yesterday so I bought Waves VU meter to test with this. My aim was to average the incoming signal between -18 and -21 based on this info, with high peaks averaging between -12 through -15. My findings were this outcome was VERY CONSERVATIVE and the tracks honestly to me sounded kind of lifeless. I will say that in the 5 tracks we recorded, the bus they dumped into did yield good results in terms of peak level on the meter and the averaged levels displayed on the VU meter. From this, I feel like for managing bigger projects, this can be an effective gain staging method, but I would honestly be very nervous to track at these levels with sources requiring more high frequency detail and content. I could be doing things wrong, Loudness has always been a struggle and I frequently feel like I'm fighting dynamics to get things louder and maintain dynamic realistic quality. So in situations like this, I feel like I'm fighting, compressing, using clippers/limiters, just to squish things I don't want to EVEN before what's supposed to be a mastering stage's job. I'm currently using the Waves WLM plus loudness metering plugin to mix the album for the Spotify/TH-cam (-14) preset since that's where this album will be streamed. I think in smaller projects, I'd prefer to track with my conventional wisdom to keep peaks between -10 through -12, but I can be flawed/wrong in my logic, hence my request for engagement here. See my tracking notes below as well
Bass DI (Eden WTDI Preamp Out ) - Pre-Pedal Board D.I
Bass AMP DI out - Post-Pedal Board D.I
Bass Room Mic (WA87 R2)
Bass Mic on 15 inch Speaker - Audio Technica ATM63HE (Center Cone)
Bass MIc on 12 inch Speaker - EV RE-20 (Center Cone)
Hi Garrett-how hot you track should have little to no bearing on how lifeless/dark/bright/vibrant a sound will be all by itself.
Whether you record at -20 or -2 peak level shouldn’t have much of an effect on that at all, assuming the only difference is your preamp gain.
There may be a very slight difference in the sound of a piece of vintage analog gear at those two levels, but not enough for it to go from being “lifeless” to “alive”.
The goal with tracking at -18 average level is so that transient peaks don’t risk going much higher than -12 to -6, keeping you away from clipping converters.
You can feel free to track harder than this as long as you aren’t clipping converters significantly on the way in. But that’s not enough to make a lifeless sound stop feeling lifeless.
My general recommendation is to track things so that each new instrument added sounds like it is part of a finished mix from the moment you record, without having to adjust anything significantly later.
That’s the ideal. This requires good sound selection, and as you get more confident, potentially compression and EQ on the way in.
The ultimate goal of recording with a DI and 2 mics on an amp should be to pick and choose and blend between them to get the perfect bass sound on the way in, with no need to juggle between them later.
That said, if you are just starting out, or recording with the goal of giving someone else more options to mix with later on because you don’t trust yourself, you might ignore this advice for now and just record all three separately rather than trying to craft an ideal sound right now.
But the ideal is to craft your ideal sound right now. You are unlikely to get that by having equal level of bass DI and three different amp mics all mixed together.
You are much more likely to get that by using just one or two of those sources.
The most common approach on 80-90% of your favorite records is going to be DI, or DI complemented by a small portion of just one mic. (Be aware that the phase relationship between these two sources can significantly affect the tone.)
The other 10-20% of your favorite bass sounds may be dominated by one mic instead. This could be by itself, or complimented by DI, or a second mic in rarer cases. Or it could be a blend between effected and unaffected DIs or something.
You definitely do not need two DIs and three mics going in to get a great bass sound, and in my experience this approach is more likely to hurt than to help.
If you want a vibrant, finished sound going in, then it’s your responsibility to create one. Not to record everything possible and just hope for the best :-)
Don’t worry. We all go through that stage! I hope this is helpful.
Keep on tracking,
Justin
PS: multimic setups are more common on electric guitar, but once again are not necessary. So many of your favorite guitar sound recorded with a single mic. When you do record with multiple mics on guitar, the ideal is to pick between them or get a good blend of them to get the perfect sound going in. Not to just record them all the same level, cross your fingers and hope for the best. Most of us learn that the hard way! So you are not alone :-)
@@SonicScoop Hey Justin, I really appreciate the detail of your response here. I will most likely just end up utilizing 1 DI and 2 mics, but wanted to capture multiple end points for experimentation. I'd rather have the data to work with than not.
Thanks
Thankyou very much.
thanks so much for the clear explanation. one thing, sometimes the VU meter just doesn't correspond with -18 DBFS, could you explain why that might be please?
It ultimately depends on your workflow and what works best for you whether your push your levels or play conservative.
Totally agreed!
Should be using VCAs or subgroups?
super good job. Thanks.
Novice mixer question I would appreciate any help with-- Lets say I already have a project session going on in Ableton that's pretty hot. Master occasionally hitting red. Main elements like the kick drum hitting like -3db, etc... What's my best course of action to get to -18db? Select all tracks and just drag down the faders? Or throw a gain plugin on every channel? Keeping in mind this project session is the 'demo/jam session' basically for sketching out the basic idea of the song. I'll usually create a different session when it comes time to mix. Is gain staging something to even worry about during the demo process of a song?
Not a pro but been at it a minute and I would say it is a good rule of thumb any time your running into any board wether recording or live. Having your average or RMS at -18 will give your peaks plenty dynamic range without clipping. If you don’t have your average at at least -18 it will usually wash out in the mix. Once you do this, if you have any peaks poking out, wether it be clipping or just poking out the mix, that’s when you apply peak reduction, be it a limiter, compressor or clipper. If you get these level for each track in this range it will all fall into place and the song will start to breathe. Don’t over compress or limit, that will only steal that breath. This is when your eq skills will make or break you. If at the start you apply these simple techniques of -18 RMS, I promise you will hear and feel the difference. Good luck and one more thing. Mixing is actually the easy part. Recording is the real challenge, it’s not as glamorous or fun, but capturing a performance at the right level, paying close attention to mic selection, mic placement and the sound of your environment is a thousand times more important than what compressor you’re going to use once you get to the mix. A lot of times when a track is recorded properly, very little processing is needed. Hope this helps and good luck! Don’t give up, it takes time and listen listen listen, “use your ears” will make more sense down the road
Thank you!
It was hard to say “Fire Beats” huh lol - informative as usual.
It was FUN to say. And even more fun when you say it wrong :-)
-Justin
the important thing is use ears into a limiter post fader 2 bus top down is a good way for energy esp in rock drum based stuff also edm, get used to hearing distortion clipping saturation etc and decide what stays what goes, we learn by mistake too :) clean is good grit is good just how much always
Gain is the most important thing in the record path, down the road it is levels you have to be concerned about. No red’s on plug-ins, busses and master bus and output; you can always lower levels…
What if you tracked using RMS between 20-15? Using this Klanghelm VUMT has standard -18db and also has RMS Meter +3dB shouldn’t I use the VUMT RMS? But what is the sweet spot on this plugin RMS meter? Is it still 0 where the red is? Or is it around -12 in the black? Ty
Thanks, Another question do you need an automation plugin like volume normaliser? Thanks
Would be nice if someone would just demonstrate step by step how to set the gain rather than just talking about it. I'm totally new to this and I've watched many videos now and a few touch on setting the faders to 0. What I want to know is does this mean the very first thing to do is set the faders to 0 and then bring up the gain until you get -18db? Nobody has actually said this so I'm having to surmise.
So you are saying maybe set the track at 0 with signal input averaging at -22 for drums. Then when tracking the bass set the track at 0 and record the input signal wherever it sounds good like maybe -20. And so on tracking guitars, synthesizer, vocals. Building the mix as you go keeping tracks at 0 during your first pass of tracking.
At 15:11 you mentioned to gain stage before you hit any of the plugins for example a compressor, reverb, saturation etc… you think it’s a good idea to do a second gain stage in a mix after you put in all your plugins then??
Also where should you set your master fader? The -18 doesn't apply to that right? As long as the output isn't clipping?
I have a question - what if you’re given a project where they have recorded audio, lots of samples that are high, lots of midi tracks going on, as WELL as volume automation going on in many tracks. What’s the fastest most efficient way to gain stage this? 😅 feels like a nightmare. Would it perhaps be best to bounce everything in place and then do the “normalize region gain option?” What if they give it to you and say they “like where the levels are sitting.” Is there then a way to collectively just bring everything down so that there’s head room on the master? Otherwise it’s just a nightmare to go through every individual track to try to hit -18dbfs. There’s gotta be a simple efficient way!? 😂
Excellent video, the problem that I have, is that when i gain down a channel to -18db when using external loops or samples, the audio (sample/loop) seems to loose their energy or resolution at this level, do you know why? also the RMS will go way down that at the end of a mix, i will have to push a limiter almost all the way up to recover some RMS or to bring the mix to a decent volume level. Could you help. . Thanks for your teachings.
There can only be two reasons for this:
1. Louder just sounds better! That’s it. Because of the Fletcher, Munson curve, listening louder also makes us hear more lows and highs.
2. When it’s mixed hotter you are hearing any limiters or saturators or other processors on the master bus hitting it harder. Sometimes, more limiting or saturation or other processing will sound better too.
Hope that helps!
-Justin
@@SonicScoop thank you for replying back, really apreciate it.
dope video! lets say your master bus is clipping, what's to stop you from selecting every track and lowering all faders by the same amount until you're no longer clipping?
That can work too, yes. But it's made more awkward if you have any fader automation going already. And you'll potentially still be driving some types of inserted plugins harder than is optimal or convenient for workflow.
In extreme cases you may even still clip the inputs plugins on buses until you make further adjustments. And if you're using motorized faders or a fader GUI, the control becomes a little less fine if the faders are tucked far down.
But it can work, absolutely! I've done it many, many times. But I'd argue that the workflow benefits of doing this with clip gain, a gain plugin or trim plugin make those approaches superior and no more time consuming.
Hope that helps,
Justin
@@SonicScoop great, yeah that makes sense. Thx!
Hello!! Can you get rid of the noise floor at the master buss level if you mixed too quietly?
Thanks for this incredible tutorial Justin!
Listen I have a theory about something called the "Loudness War":
Was it even a war at all - or more about a misunderstanding of gain staging, long before tutorials such as this, that let to the phenomenon of super-loud, mushy sounding CDs, and digital downloads, after the 1990s?
I know, as a tech, to always 'aim for zero' in metering. So I'm theorizing that a lot of engineers in the 1990s and after simply didn't understand the concept of zero as an average(analog) vs zero as a peak(Full-scale in digital).
Your thoughts on this?
When producing electronic music, should I try to get all levels sitting at 0 on the VU? Or just balance by ear using the VU? Thanks!
How much in dbs mix file should be in master fader to sent for master enginnering
Very nice video explaining very well. hummm... I am a beginner and I have checked a lot of videos and it may have confused me... I aimed at -6 dB on my recording of my instruments because I saw some people proposed that (in logic pro, it's the begging of the yellow part. It's not clipping for sure, but maybe I don't get a lot of headroom). Maybe they were referencing to peak at - 6 dB and I should have understood average at -18 dB. I gain staged simultaneously aiming that - 6dB on the channel, but also using Wave Vu meter so that the level doesn't exceed 0 on this. I am not sure it is a good idea to gain stage with the Vu meter AND the level of the channel... I may have been confuse here again, as I begin to understand that those are separate thing, and to not exceed 0 on the vu meter is the thing to check after saturation, or at the bus, mix bus, or stereo out...??? I tend to ajust gain in the output of the plugin, or adding a gain plugin before or after the other plugins, so that it stays at -6 dB. Is it correct? Maybe I just should rebegin all again just to make everything is at -18 dB on the level meter, and not check the Vu meter? oh well... thanks
Like, if my sound doesn't clip, is it ok to put a gain plugin and drop it to - 18dB, even if it has been recorded at -6 dB? thanks again
Yes, the idea is that shooting for an AVERAGE level of -18 should get you peaks that are below 0. (Potentially as low as -6, but it depends on the material.)
Hope that helps!
-Justin
@@SonicScoop thanks for your response!
Great vid, may I ask; the gain staging level is 18-dbfs PEAK? not RMS is this correct?
-18 RMS is the often recommended target. Not -18 peak.
A -18RMS target might get you peaks of -6, while a -18 peak target might get you an RMS of -30!
@@SonicScoop Thanks for clearing this up, its been a hassle for a while this
@@SonicScoop Strange, Im using an averaeg EDM kick - calibrating my Waves VU meter to -18 and the Lindell SBC to -18dbFS (from -14 default) with it and both are smashing the VU meters +3 VU with a edm kick drum that peaks at about -8 db .. so please help me put this matter to sleep what do I do?
You recommend -18dBFS for track input level. So, how do you reconcile that with a K-14 meter? Does this mean that you aim for 4dB below the '0' point on the K-14 meter? Would it be a problem to use -14dBFS as your track input level?
The -14 target is generally a recommendation for delivering a very dynamic final master, not a a recording target, or even a mix target necessarily.
However, in practice, the vast majority of commercial masters are much louder than -14 with anywhere from -13 to -5 LUFS being more common, depending on genre.
Here's an episode with more detail on loudness targets for mastering: th-cam.com/video/wtoB6oj_xRw/w-d-xo.html
Hope that helps!
-Justin
@@SonicScoop Thank you for the clarification Justin.
I’ve been confused on those numbers. By the final master I want it to hit at least -11 or -10. If I shoot for -18 on the mixbus how do I reach -7 db of makeup gain on the master without overdoing the final master limiter ?
The secret is that you let the limiter do some limiting :-)
The other secret is that commercial releases have more dynamic range control on them at other stages than you might expect.
There may be other stages of dynamic range in the mix even before mastering, as well as additional stages of dynamic range control in the master, such as saturation, soft clipping, fast attack compressors, de-essers and multiband processors and so on.
The mixes that go loud the best are mixes that are hot at the mixing stage. This can be achieved by using sample augmentation, bus processing, individual track processing and the like so that whatever your average level is, your peaks are not 18 dB hotter than your average signal by the time you're done with the mix!
Then, the mastering engineer doesn't have to do 7 or 8 dB of dynamic range control on the loudest transient peaks control to get you to -10 or -11 LUFs.
But yes, to get final masters that loud, that dynamic range control has to occur SOMEWHERE.
This can occur in the form of using sampled and electronic instruments as primary or supporting elements, it could mean compressing and limiting live played instruments more than you think you "should", and it could mean several layers of dynamics processing (individual instrument, sub group, mix bus, and mastering) to get there.
The dirty secret is that vocals on most major commercial releases are generally compressed by at LEAST 10-20 dB cumulative... and that's BEFORE mastering!
Mixing to average at -18 is a great place to START. But as you gain confidence with dynamics processing you don't have to stay there. And even if you keep your average level there, you don't have to settle for transient peaks that are 18 dB hotter than your average level. That would be practically unheard of in a final commercial release in any popular genre.
I hope that helps!
-Justin
Should i gain stage in aux send track?
If you record at -18db how can you hear your mix while your recording? How do hear more of the mix in your headphones?
excellenyt ty
Thanks for the comment and the subscribe!
-Justin
Hi Justin, thanks for the very interesting video. I usually have the same problem and don't know what I'm doing wrong. I measure with a VU meter the input signals of the tracks, all faders at 0. Every time I mix I end up at -5dbVU but it is still too quiet. The average level is mostly at -23 dbVU but the peaks are at -8 dbVU. Now when I start mastering the song I already have the maximizer at -13dbVU only to get -12LUFS. I can't even get close to -9LUFS. I work a lot with digital keyboards and drum loops. Do all instruments need to be compressed each time to get a higher average volume?
Hi Michael, a couple of the biggest tricks here will be: 1 managing low end. It’s hard to get things clean and loud if the lows are excessive and 2. Applying more limiting.
Most records that are as hot as -10 or louder are going to have a bunch of limiting applied. This might not be all at the stereo bus level either.
Your individual subgroups and tracks may want compression and/or limiting.
Records that are -10 to -5 LUFS are going to have substantial dynamic range control going on. More than they’re “supposed to”.
Hope that helps!
-Justin
@@SonicScoop Hi Justin, thanks a lot for your reply. That was very kind of you.
When u say -18 do u mean -18 the peak level or -18 RMS? Like so if im recording a guitar into my interface would i set the gain so its -18 RMS or just the peak? And the same for other tracks?
RMS!
@@SonicScoop thanks :)
Great stuff but would have loved some examples
How much would you charge for an in "House" Mix tutorial of one of my Songs in NYC?
Hey there-I do remote coaching calls all the time for this purpose. Just get in touch via JustinColletti.com
Hope I can help!
-Justin
A problem I've always had when trying to gain stage is, if I set everything to -18 dbfs the drums are so quiet you can barely hear them and the guitars dominate everything else, if they are all at the same volume how can that be?
It’s not a out getting everything individually to -18. It’s about getting the entire mix to -18. To do this your kick and bass might be close to -18 average, but your guitars and cymbals might be much lower than that on average.
Hope that helps!
-Justin
Love your channel but wanted to say that if faders are left at 0 wouldn’t you have to have a plugin with a gain to raise db for optimal input into the plugin thus raising the noise floor of the audio file?
Plugins are usually before the fader. Also you can use clip gain to gainstage, which is likely the best way so that you can keep good fader resolution, which is another thing to consider (as the fader gets lower, it goes from 10db steps to 5db steps within the same amount of movement, so half the res).
@@UncleBenjs all this relying on plugins input options = more processing + added noise floor. I’m sure things like clip gain or perhaps using the output of a plugin if it has output options. Either way you’re getting noise floor differences.
@@goseason2343 Noise floor is hardly an issue in digital
@@UncleBenjs air is everywhere except digital.
@@goseason2343 If you think so
This a 🔥 ass video
Question. Let's say you are mixing and the vocal track provided is below -24 dBfs avg., is it good practice to use clip gain (ProTools) to increase the average to about -18dBfs avg. before starting the mix, e.g., balancing tracks, adding plugins, etc.?
Good question
Here's what's confusing: On the DAW fader there is a mark for Zero, and then 6 dB headroom above, and 36 dB below until the fader is marked at the bottom with the Infinity symbol, signifying No Level at all.
When it's said that the DAW (and also a plugin) is Calibrated to -18 dBFS, does that mean that Zero on the fader/meter is -18 dBFS (and therefore one should try to hit Zero, just like on an analog board), or does it mean that one should still aim for a reading of 18 dB on the DAW fader/meter?
This would be sort of the opposite or inverse of what Justin (and many others) have said. In other words, instead of, "Negative 18 on your digital meter corresponds to Zero dB in the analog domain," doesn't this business about Calibrating actually mean that Zero on my Digital meter/fader corresponds to -18 dB in the analog world?
-18 on the DAW meter.
Is there a way to change the fader resolution (in Logic) from exponential to... incremental? Or is it just easier to use a gain plugin?
Use the "normalize region gain" function in Logic. Set it to regions, RMS, -18. Be sure you've highlighted all your tracks before doing this.
@@michaell.8938 wow never knew this function existed - thanks a bunch! 🙏🏻
Tried everything -18db, now I don't have enough volume to hear my cubase 11 project properly
3:01 I am recording at 64bit fp: 🗿
Im a tot amateur but isnt -18 insanely quiet for recording? I look at vocals or guitars and its such a weak pathetic signal?
-18 PEAK would be pretty quiet for things like vocals and guitars. But -18 AVERAGE (RMS) would not be quiet at all. There, you'd probably have peaks as high as -6 or so potentially.
I did make that distinction in the episode but could have hammered it even harder.
That said, you can track louder than -18 AVERAGE if you like to. But the hotter than that you go, the more likely you are to need a limiter or run into clipping buses down the line.
If you DID misunderstand this advice and were recording -18 PEAK instead of -18 AVERAGE/RMS then your tracks would be fairly low.... but in the digital domain, that isn't really a problem at all. You can just turn them up from there with literally no issue.
Hope that helps!
-Justin
@@SonicScoopi cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your day to educate all of us and even responding to questions. Much respect and thanks!
Dude ,it might be so been as conservative might not be the case any single time ! If we stick to minus 18 we should be aware that we would add something later that originaly was not on original rec !!! A certain sum tracks or simply some add gain processor
Maybe i’m still confused on this or doing this wrong, but when I used a VU meter plugin and gain staged all my tracks to 0 (Using drum samples, loops and synths,) my kick is obnoxiously louder than say my bass and really the rest of the tracks. All the tracks are set to unity on the faders but it sounds like the kick is like 20 db louder than the bass and loop even though they’re all hitting 0 on the VU meter... ps Im using Ableton Live 10 and the Waves VU meter
Is it posible that you are measuring transient signals with RMS meter? I mean: high transient signals like drums are set at around -6dbfs PEAK. The rest of the signals (vocals, bass, gtr, etc) are set around -18dbfs RMS (average).
@@Paulnap Maybe? Id have to go back to that session and double check, I was kinda just experimenting with what he was saying by throwing on the VU meter on each channel and gain staging to that level, which is the result I got when I did it with the kick drum sample
I thought you said this would be simple LoL
-18 dB RMS
OMG, we're back to this again ?
-18 dBs right out of the gate ?
I can't bear to listen to this anymore.
Don't bother 'responding'.
I'm unsubscribing, have a nice day.
Bill P.
You’d probably find a LOT more nuance than that if you listened to the whole thing :-)
Best wishes in your travels,
Justin