Ireland: Why The Hell Aren't They In NATO? - TLDR News
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 เม.ย. 2022
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Ireland has a long history of neutrality, but Putin's invasion of Ukraine is forcing many in the country to reconsider. So in this video we discuss Ireland's new conversation around NATO and why they might finally be considering membership.
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Small correction : Varadkar wasn’t the president of Ireland, rather he was the Taoiseach. Essentially the prime minister of Ireland. The current president of Ireland is Michael D. Higgins, and we love him very much
Miggle d ❤
I am starting to wonder what other little details are incorrect
@@MRSYSTEM96 Yeah that’s common knowledge. You’d expect a Brit to get right. It’s literally on Wikipedia
Dont we all
Speak for yourself.
There are a lot of sloppy inaccuracies in this video. Varadkar was never "president" -- he was Taoiseach (i.e. the prime minister). During WWII, the "Free State" had ceased to exist (with the adoption of the new constitution). And it isn't just "widely understood" that any change to the Constitution would require a referendum -- it is in fact the only legal means to amend the Constitution.
Plus he also says Ireland joined the European Community, which didn’t exist at the time.
@@MrMalcovic what was it called? i thought it was called the european community after 57 (treaty of Rome)?
@@kw2142 Maybe he's being really nitpicky and means that at the time the formal name would have been "European *Economic* Community".
@@kw2142
Ireland, along with the UK and Denmark, joined the European Economic Community(EEC) in 1973.
Also, the whole of Ulster isn't in the UK, one third of it is in the "Republic", so get that felt tip pen out bud and draw that heinous border properly 👍🏻.
There is a dimension to Irish neutrality that gets overlooked, but which is possibly the most critical element of all. And the war in Ukraine gives us a good example to illustrate it. Ireland has been, since the Reformation, England's 'near abroad'- an area regarded as not quite culturally part of the motherland, but considered strategically critical such that it must be held close, or at least denied to a hostile power. Neutrality was a way for the young Irish state to navigate the difficult balancing act that public opinion had no love for the British Empire (to put it mildly), yet at the same time that no UK government could tolerate Ireland aligning with a potentially hostile power.
For centuries London-based governments fretted over the risk of European powers using Ireland to bypass English defences and strike from the weaker side. During England's many civil wars, internal pretenders and would-be coups turned to Ireland as a recruiting-grounds for antigovernmental troops (from Simnel and Warbeck under the Tudors, to the Cavaliers of the English Civil War, to the 'Night of the Irish' panic under James II). London governments feared that hostile European powers might do the same, not only using Ireland geographically as a forward base, but while doing so finding sympathetic cause among the people. From the Spanish Armada, to the wars of Louis XIV (from whence Ireland's Unionists, after all hark, back to being saved by the Sun King's nemesis, the Dutch 'King Billy'), to Revolutionary France (the French-backed Republic of Connaught), to Imperial Germany (Roger Casement's arms shipments), whichever power opposed England attempted both to gain a foothold in Ireland but also to court support among the Irish.
This is part of the reason why, after Irish independence, Britain sought, successfully, to retain control of the strategic shipbuilding facilities in Northern Ireland and the deep-water naval ports of the south coast. There were of course demographic/cultural reasons to hold on to Northern Ireland, with its large 'ethnic-British' population, but as with Bismarck in Alsace or Putin in Donbas, these could only justify governmental support because there were good strategic - economic and security - reasons to justify the effort and expense
In other words, Irish neutrality as we know it today did not emerge as a lofty principle, but as a direct, pragmatic response to the fact that Britain's enemies had a strategic interest in Ireland, and Britain a strategic interest in denying them this foothold. If the young state allied with one side it risked a reaction from the other, so it opted to give neither side a pretext for invasion.
In the 1930s, sympathies towards England were hard to find across Irish political parties given the brutal irregular warfare of 1916-21. English authorities in general, and Churchill personally, were loathed for their association with the Black and Tans, a counterrevolutionary paramilitary remembered in communities across the country for terrorising civilians, often regarded as the UK's counterpart to Germany's protofascist freikorps. Domestically, by the 1930s Ireland's centrist government was sandwiched between two paramilitarised political extremes that were both courted by Nazi Germany (just as Putin sponsors right and left opposition today) - the IRA on the far-left, and the Blueshirts on the far-right - with a view to gaining sympathetic supporters, perhaps a sympathetic government some day, on England's weak flank.
At the same time, diplomatically the Irish Free State was by nature mistrustful of Great Power style bilateral geopolitics, and placed great faith, great emotional investment, in the League of Nations (whose Covenant outlawed wars of aggression and expansion) to defend small states and multilateral diplomacy by holding big powers like Britain and Germany in check. When in 1935-6 Italy's invasion of Ethiopia ended with Britain and France's conservative governments offering Mussolini a secret deal to keep conquered territory, Ireland grew disillusioned in the good faith of the large powers to abide by multilateralism and honour the territorial integrity of small states (it had proposed sending peacekeeping troops to defend Abyssinia's independence, if a formal League of Nations mission were organised). A similar outcome for Czechoslovakia with Munich in 1938 increased the alarm. So by 1939, when Britain declared war on Germany following the invasion of Poland, Ireland's attitude was one of 'a plague on both your houses'; both of these great powers were seen as having bargained away the territorial integrity of small states, and undermined the international institutions designed to protect them. The policy then became one of giving neither Nazi Germany nor the British Empire a reason to invade, by remaining scrupulously inoffensive to both. Though the sympathies of the Irish government, especially after the entry of the US into the war, certainly lay with the allied democracies. But as with the US which ended its neutrality following Pearl Harbor, the attitude was that no side should be taken until and unless war were declared on Ireland first.
This neutrality policy, in other words, was specific to the historical context: the mistrust of Britain across all Irish political parties; the tense internal situation posed by the existence of a militant anti-governmental left and righ fanned by Nazi Germany; the despair at the great powers' return to bilateralism and secret diplomacy over rules-based multilateralism; and the balancing act of ensuring neither Germany nor Britain would have any pretext to preventatively seize the island to deny it to the other.
After the war, this context receded, but the idea that Ireland should remain militarily neutral remained - becoming a sort of nebulous, general principle. But alongside it remained the older idea from the League of Nations that the one exception was participation in UN-approved multilateral peacekeeping missions.
All that to say, in this light Ireland's neutrality and its potential place in NATO is still an issue of substance, not merely an abstract argument: Ireland being as much a prisoner of geography as any other country, neutrality means avoiding antagonising either London (which has not always been measured in its policing of its backyard), or any power that wishes to attack London. Imagine if a hypothetical European Army stationed assets on the island, inflaming a no-longer-quit-hypothetical English national-populist government, given London has historically regarded Ireland the way Washington DC regards Cuba. Or on the other hand, in a new Cold War, joining a military alliance may antagonise an enemy of Britain (whichever that enemy may be), and invite unwanted attention as the soft point from which to threaten the UK. In that context, joining NATO is certainly a legitimate question to consider, but so too is the option (if available) of avoiding attention from military powers altogether.
(Edited typos)
Really well written, thank you.
@TLDR; hire this guy.
Great piece. I really learned a lot from it. 👍👍👍
Excellent and informative comment, thank you!
EXCELLENT.
That poll was a loaded question, designed to get a certain answer, the current polls have 71% in favour of keeping neutrality.
Irish people have been massively sympathetic towards Ukrainians since the war broke out, but the issue of NATO is about our own security, not that of Ukraine. It’s too controversial to try and push for a referendum on neutrality. Losing a referendum you proposed would be embarrassing for the government, so historically they tend not to back a referendum until they’re very sure they can win it.
Ireland has good historical reasons for wanting to be neutral. Generally in European politics, if your neighbours are much bigger than you, you either need to be neutral or join an alliance. Belgium and Switzerland are good examples. This adds up to a cultural belief in the importance of neutrality that’s not easy to overcome.
Switzerland is a good example how neutrailty worked well. Belgium on the other hand is a good example how neutrality did not save the country... twice.
@@krzysztofimartawik2332 Switzerland mostly relies on their country being strategically worthless to anyone looking to invade
Agree governments don't like referendums they don't win. Unless its the result comes out against the EU. Then countries just have another one. Best 7 out of 13.
But you have the great advantage that everyone loves Ireland. No one cares much about Belgium (inc Belgians) and not one much likes Switzerland. Even Germans think they are anal retentive.
I wonder how Belgium is a good example 😂 Belgium may be theoretically neutral, but I can't remember Belgium ever being neutral in *any* conflict, as well as they're part of NATO.
A lot of people seem to forget that Britain benefitted initially from Irish neutrality as it ended the threat of historical Irish cooperation with rival European powers. Irish rebellions against Britain had consistently been supported throughout history by French, German and Spanish governments. Even during WW1 Irish elements were seeking German cooperation against Britain.
The rebellions were against British rule, obviously, so there was no need for support from other European powers after independence, and by the time the RoI came into being, the historical rivalries with France and Spain had ceased to exist, so I don’t see how Irish neutrality benefited the UK.
Interesting fact: At the end of the war following Hitlers death, Eamon de Valera signed a book of condolences at the German Embassy,
Well they would do.. it was noted 👍
@@MrMalcovic having a neighbour next door who hates your guts is bad news for anything. Imagine the damage the Troubles did to Britain and Ireland, which was only directly fuelled by a small minority on each side, but injected with national hostilities and committed support and funding for paramilitaries. It would be chaos.
Irish neutrality matters little to the great powers and it is actually a useful tool to have a friendly nation to meditate with your adversaries.
The British Isles were threatened not just the UK. Hitler and the Nazis actually had an opinion of the Irish and it
was very low. They considered them a very troublesome race. Any Irish resistance would have resulted in genocide of the worst kind. Do not forget Hitler actually admired the British Empire and thought the control by a
Germanic people of none whites and others was an ideal thing. Even in 1940 he still hoped for a peaceful resolution with the UK. Full Irish engagement was frankly in Irish interests as much as the UK's. An extra couple of hundred thousand fighters in Kent would have made Dublin a lot safer. Let's face it if there is one people in the world who know how tenacious Irish fighters are it's the English.
Compared to Sweden and Finland joining NATO, Ireland joining is relatively inconsequential. Finland joining adds massively to the NATO border with Russia, and together with Sweden, creates a different strategic landscape in the Baltic Sea.
Separately, North Macedonia was kept out of European organizations by Greece, for the sole objection over the name Macedonia, which was finally resolved, because this was stupid to anyone outside of Greece.
Ireland is the only country left that has a coastline on the Atlantic that hasn't joined.
It wouldn't contribute much but it will be a symbolic achievement. It's not looking likely as of now tho.
Kosovo is being prevented from joining NATO because 4 countrys in nato dont think its a real country.
Fiercely independent and love nothing more than a good bare knuckled dustup. We should be rolling out the red carpet for them.
@@fabulouscat3911 Mexico, Morocco, Senegal...the list goes on
@@samnicholson5051 non European countries can't join NATO
It's a neutral nation, it's why Ireland is most commonly used in UN peace keeping missions.
Having never invaded or colonized anybody else they are trusted.
@@jakleo337 exactly Ireland Never Invaders Only Defenders
@@jakleo337we did try and invade Canada that one time 😂😂 but apart from that lol
Can confirm - our soldiers are quite often used to 'keep an eye' on certain other nationalities.
One thing, 8:12 - Leo Varadkar who is the current Tánaiste [deputy prime minister] isn't the former president of Ireland, he was the Taoiseach [prime minister] and Ireland is a parliamentary republic. The current president [An t-Uachtarán] is Michael D Higgins. Also, Leo was previously a minister for defence and minister of justice and equality (which included intelligence) so his word does make a serious point.
They really struggle to differentiate between these offices for some reason, or to pronounce irish parties' names correctly
@@Schoritzobandit He could have simply say prime minister like they do outside Ireland. The Irish titles are just the fact they are technically called those title the Irish constitution [Bunrecht na hÉireann]. For example the German federal chancellor is called simply the chancellor, despite officially the title is called the Bundeskanzler.
Varadkar was a prime-minister, not president. We have Doobie the house elf as president and are well proud of it!!
We hate the Government but God damn it we love our President and his dogs
Isn't varadkar meant to be in charge again soon?
@@theirishempire4952 true!
I'll not sit here and allow such offence against the President of Ireland to go unchallenged.... it's Dobbie the house-elf, not Doobie ya langer.
@@CactiOnFurni yes, but not as president. He will be the Taoiseach or Prime minister. Not the president
One thing that often gets lost is Irish independance was partly born out of an anti conscription movement during WW1. Not being involved in war has been a part of Irish identity since before it got independance. Besides its very easy for anyone to join the UK or US military and its always handy to have a neutral nation around for negotiations and peacekeeping.
Exactly. Ireland never wants to be seen as a war-mongering nation.
@jimmy Ryan One thing that you have got lost is that there was no conscription in Ireland during WWI.
Well we did invade England first
That Jimmy is a huge part of the anti NATO argument for Ireland today i am strongly anti Conscription and i do not believe our men should be dying in foreign lands for rich Oligarchs example is all the Americans and British men who died in Afghanistan for literally nothing it's a huge shame and waste of life
And for saying under their breath of course "thank *UC! We're not involved in this one! Runway Runaway 🏃🏃🏃🏃🏃🏃🏃🏃🏃
Worth mentioning Ireland never joined NATO originally because we maintained a claim on Northern Ireland which went against the terms of the alliance. We actually tried to make a seperate alliance with the US but they turned it down.
"s-e-p-a-r-a-t-e"
@@Felatelist there is a pipe bomb in your post
You got lucky because now nobody forces you to support any of the sides in the war. When Iraq was invaded nobody forced you to be on agressor side...
@@angelg3986 Is that why David Frost spent the pandemic trying to get Terrorists to attack Ireland?
Ireland was not invited to join NATO. Their close association with NAZI Germany was unpalatable in 1949.
I think neutral countries like Ireland are important in brokering peace. Ireland could actually play a much larger role as a 3rd party negotiator than as a military power.
As an American I do so envy the Irish people's ability to ammend the constitution through referendum. We aren't allowed to change ANY federal law through referendum, that would be too much like democracy
Funny enough the Irish constitution doesn't say anything about Neutrality, we just choose that path, so if we are feeling it we can just get rid of it, although I believe it's a big enough issue that it would be referendum
The USA scores really well on democracy measures in theory, as long as there is no 2 party dominance present, oh wait, thats what happend 😳😓
@@theirishempire4952 what's the commission fees for Ireland brokerage charges.
@@grijsmanya7292 "Protect opulent minority from the majority" - James Madison, notes from the constitution. It got off to a bad start
Absolutely agree, we are sending tonnes of non-lethal aid to Ukraine, body armour, helmets, ambulances, blood, MRE’s, money etc plus many many volunteers to help people fleeing as well as welcoming in thousands of refugees from the war. We are also contributing to the sanctions and putting extra political pressure on Russia to stop this war. But in the future we could be ideally placed as a third party for negotiations as you say.
The Irish Free State did not exist during World War II. It was succeeded by the state called Ireland on 29 December 1937 with the coming into force of a new constitution.
True. But we didn’t formally become a republic and leave the British empire/commonwealth until 1948.
yawn, so...
In my opinion, having some neutral countries militarily is very important, because they can play the role of a third party for negotiations if needed.
Sounds good but Russia nor China would never consider any of the western non-NATO members as neutral.
@@TheBlogCruiser Sad but true. Considering the fact that Ireland is a part of the "unfriendly countries" to Russia, It's difficult to see it as neutral anymore. Even though the support is mostly focused on humanitarian aid.
Bullshit
But while Ireland may be militarily neutral, it is it not politically neutral and could not be good for a bridge in talks.
In case of war mostly nobody cares if you are neutral
Might be worth mentioning that even Russia is a member of the NATO "partnership for peace" programme, so I'd say that's largely meaningless...
I'd say that partnership is over now. Lol!
At this point I’d say that’s now voided
Putin tried to join as one of his first actions in office. Otan rejected. So who voided what?
@@SynomDroni I think you have to follow the action plan which probably requires a basic level of democratization and anti-corruption measures in place which Russia probably failed pretty clearly
@@tylermc11795 good point. Also: Turkey and Greece. But jokes aside. Sometimes opening a door and getting involed yields more success in developing aforementioned democratic values. And getting Russia there is a longer journey maybe than say Rumania. Exclusion and antagonism certainly didn't work to well. What world do we want to live in?
8:14 Leo vardakar was never president of Ireland. He was the prime minister (Taoiseach) . The president of Ireland is a largely ceremonial role and that has been held by Micheal d Higgins since 2011.
Can't see the point. No one will attack them with the UK next door. and the US and Canada three doors down.
@@niklas5923 NATO are not obliged to defend Ukraine. The UK will absolutely defend Ireland as it's in their interest not to have a hostile power occupying Eire and threatening it's Western border. And the USA and Canada jumping in is a forgone conclusion. Ireland is the safest country of all to live in and needs no treaties or agreements.
Exactly, If you can freeload on others, why wouldnt you?
@@anthonyferris8912 Exactly.
@@Jin-Ro Uk would in no way shape or form help the irish dogs and if we did the people would be pissed
@@Bignfluffy No, the UK definitely would, 110%, no question about it.
If Russia is struggling to invade Ukraine, then Ireland isn't that worried. 🤷🏻♂️
You should be! They struggle to invade Ukraine BECAUSE the US, Canada and the rest have been actively supporting Ukraine! If it wasnt for all that money, material, and intelligence, Ukraine would be a 'proud' new member of the Russian Federation!
It might be worth noting that the majority in favour of increasing military spending might be basing that position on the fact that they Irish military is horribly under funded and has been undergoing a massive Exodus of personnel in the past few years.
Whether Ireland joins NATO or not (I don't see it happening, personally) the Irish military needs considerably more funding to even keep the lights on, never mind actually stand a chance against any invasion, unlikely as that is.
I doubt the British will invade Ireland. More like Ireland will unify with British backing, if we get a change if tory leadership in no.10. Whatever is best for all Irish people and British people. I think both nations are getting to a point of building meaningful relations, afterall each a similar and have celtic orgins. If UK spending is kept there wouldn't be much of a need for the Irish to match, more beneifical to make a pact and have forces be independent but united in threat against the British & Irish Isles and it's allies.
@@UkSapyy we're very closely aligned, over all. I don't see reunification happening any time soon but there's a 0% chance of any open hostilities between Ireland and the UK, no matter what happens with the North.
@@kevburke Just pub fights over football matches!
@@inconnu4961 that's more often English people fighting other English people, but sure!
see my take on expanding the Irish Military is purely for defensive purposes like increasing the wages and benefits of soldiers and ideally get more soldiers the main reason i could see us needing an army for is if we ever have a United Ireland so we can send troops to the North for peacekeeping to combat the inevitable wave of Loyalist terrorism that a United Ireland would cause
Michael D. Higgins is our President. Leo Varadkar is the former Taoiseach and current Tánaiste. It's a significant difference. Boris is not the president of the UK, for example
An embarrassing mistake for them, hope they acknowledge it.
They make that mistake all the time, couple of weeks ago they called Orban "Hungarian president".
As an Irishman I have mixed feelings on this but lean towards staying neutral. That said we should support Ukraine.
i love lean💜💜💜💜
Ireland is militarily neutral but that doesn’t mean we’re not politically neutral. The best way we can help is by sending financial aid to Ukraine and food or other donations to Ukrainian refugees.
Can't wait for the Russian navy to come back to Irish waters.
We dont need nato
You shouldn't support Ukraine.
What they were doing to their own people for 8 years, is as despicable as what Russia is doing now.
Ireland is right to not send aid to Ukraine.
To help Ukraine is helping to kill innocent people.
Not helping Ukraine, would be the quickest path to peace. Russia needs to withdraw, yes. But Ukraine needs to stop it's war against it's own people.
NATO has been "assisting" , to prevent peace negotiations.
The quickest way to save the most lives is to stop helping Ukraine.
As an Irish person, the inaccuracies and misinformation in this vid legit p*ss me off.
Ireland just doesn't want to be legally obligated to come to the defense of England.
With it's mass of armed forces it couldn't defend Rockall 😂
@@sitrepSNAFU 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Don't start your car tomorrow 😂😂😂😂🚗💣💥
@@eoghancarpenter8546 not Northern Ireland 😂😂😂😂☺️😂😂😂😂😂😂☺️😂
See thats the point military wise outside our own island we are literally useless defending another country wise
@@kurtpunchesthings2411 My point was that even if Ireland had the biggest army in the world, they would not want to be obligated to defend England.
The better question is: Why the hell would they be in NATO??
Not joining officially while still enjoying part of the protection by the existence of NATO makes a country a freeloader. Also, do you really think Russia actually considers you neutral?
@PatchesRips And what threat is Russia to Ireland may I ask?
@@SirBlade666 No they consider us a belligerent nation but we got our nukes ready. Calling Ireland a free loading nation is actually really funny lol we consider most of Europe to be free loaders, benefitting from our military while we can’t afford healthcare for our own people but it’s nice to see they’re finally poneying up… All it took is a war 😂
Yeah.. really not a good idea for us. We do not want to be military or militarily aligned.. a few more boats would be nice, but way to high a price to pay for it.
Ireland is much more influential as a neutral country. They are on of the only European countries to have never invaded another country. If Ireland is taking sides, it should be taking the side that's against corporate tax breaks.
I am irish and although they are a neutral country claiming ireland never invaded another country is misleading.since ireland got most of it's independence from Britain we haven't invaded a country.before Britain invaded ireland ireland invaded Britain which is the main reason for why st.patrick (technically not a saint) is patron Saint of ireland(1 of 3)
@patrickbutsmart ...not to mention the colonisation of what would become Scotland by the Scotti tribe (hence the name) from the North of Ireland.
@@patrickbutsmart true, but that history is why a lot of smaller nations trust Ireland (is what I hear, I'm American) but I think it makes a lot of sense that former colonies request Irish peacekeepers instead of British, French, or Belgian.
@@patrickbutsmart St Patrick was British so surely he also invaded Ireland?
@@patrickbutsmart That was raids not exactly conquering/invading
I remember a comment attributed to Tom Barry in speaking about WW2 in that Ireland should not take sides and just attack the side that invaded
I think you need to dig into what defines "neutrality," not only presenting some arbitrary examples (like aircraft stopovers) without referring to any paragraphs that this is, in fact, a breach of neutrality. Funny, Kremlin really tries to piss off neutral and alliance-free countries by intimidating them. Like when fighter jets going over both Swedish and Finnish borders recently. I recall that a Russian warship decided to plan to have a live exercise where Irish fishermen have their main fishing grounds. Kremlin really tries hard to be hated!
Yeah, it's always Putin's fault)) It's like a lifelong goal to piss off neutral countries).
Yawn, you give me gas pains. US has invaded over 70 countries since 1945, 10 were democracies...Jeez..do some reading.
I still haven't heard a strong argument for Ireland to join NATO.
Yeah. I want to see a Defense spending increase so that airspace/EEZ violations can be taken care of. No standing offensive military, but enough missiles to blast as many planes or boats to pieces as we need.
There is none, we have no responsibility but still have protection, England couldn't allow the place to be taking over in a war I'm would be also catastrophic to them in times of war
I'm from Denmark and "we" just decided to go from 5 billion USD in military spending to 7,5 billion to meet the NATO 2% spending goal. (Not much I know, but we're a small country)
Here's the catch: We don't have the money in the budget. It's all loans for the next 8 years. 20 billion USD in loans, whilst inflation is rampant and the interest rate on loans is due to increase dramatically.
All this, for something that contributes absolutely nothing in terms of adding value to the economy.
Meanwhile, our health sector is buckling because of a lack of nurses and cuts to the health system the last 20 years.
NATO spending 2021: 1.2 trillion USD
Russian spending 2021: 60 billion USD
Ireland should do what's best for them. We are certainly caught up in this spending black hole because of NATO.
At least the Americans, French and Germans will get some jobs and tax money out of all of this...
@@shanemoran4145 plus you all have a bit of a reputation for not putting up with occupiers 😅
It’s part of becoming a full member of the club of democratic nations.Democracy is not given, it has to be fought for. Every Irish person should know that, as every Ukrainian now knows it. It should be part of ROI becoming a fully paid up member of the club with other countries which share our values and interests. Ireland is no longer a poor country dogged by its past. It is a highly educated, modern secular state confident of its place in the world ready to defend itself and help others defend themselves from those who would end it.
From what I understand about Irish neutrality is that it starts and ends with military. But they don't just sit here doing nothing. Ireland has done a lot, for example their peacekeeping efforts were key on multiple occasions, Ireland had and is still expressing their solidarity with the rest of Europe regarding our stance against authoritarians and so on. Their small country does its part and that's I think what matters.
As for NATO, I may have some more insight on that. I've been calling Ireland my second home for much of the last nine years. Talking to my Irish friends regarding this whole ordeal and reading about it on the news, I really do believe the Irish don't really know what they want at the moment. And the polls here summarize it well. From my perspective, the key takeaway is that Ireland does want to do it's part and do even more. But committing to NATO is a serious deal and at the moment this country is really trying to figure it out how they want to move forward in this new reality we live in.
Well put. As an Irishman I'd agree with you.
Absolutely, Ireland helps many NATO members indirectly for example intelligence between the in Garda Síochána' J2 office and the UK's MI5.
Six EU member states, all who
have declared their non-alignment with military alliances, are not NATO
members: Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta, and Sweden.
Additionally,
The UK runs air sorties from Cyprus from its airbase and will do so in any conflict. Northern Cyprus is Turkish and Souhern in Greek who both are members of NATO.
It's true that 70,000 people from the 'Irish Free State' served in the UK forces during WW2. Many were indeed Catholics; like my father. But the reality was that the majority of this 70,000 came from the Free States Protestant population - then about 300,000 - many of them with strong family ties to Great Britain.
Yes exactly, which is why in practice they did not act neutrally.
300,000 half female half old or children so that leaves 75000 fighting age men and all but 5000 went to war
@@liambyrne5285 REALLY.....????.....YOU ARE KIDDING, RIGHT..??
No highly unlikely there was 300 000 at the time of independece,but by that time it would have been closer to 200 000 or less .I read though that was true in terms of officers,but the rank and file were catholic
Where do you get your FACTS from.?
From a defense standpoint there isn't really that much need for Ireland to fully join NATO, there are NATO members all around it that it has (mostly) good relations with so the risk of an invasion isn't really on the cards.
EU membership allows it to maintain security as membership does include mutual defense clauses while it also allows it to have a voice internationally while it's status of neutrality offers it as a voice of reason in international discussions or at least a place where diplomacy can happen between two conflicting nations. Giving up neutrality to join NATO wouldn't really benefit Ireland at this point.
Isn't there a defence clause with the UK, anyone threatening Ireland will have the UK forces (and presumably then also NATO) to deal with. I know that when Russia flies too close to us it is the RAF who fly out to meet them - fortunately. Given the powers Russia/Putin seem to be claiming the UK forces now have (apparently they - UK special forces allegedly - murdered all those civilians in Bucha, that is the latest claim from Russia) I would say that as far as Russia is concerned we are very safe as we are.
@@ABC1701A What? The so called UK Special Forces murdered ALL those civilians? My they have been busy! Actually all things considered I'm surprised the UK has sufficient bullets as apparantly they are giving most of them to the Ukrainians to kill Russians . . . . . . ah that's it!
US Neocons - who dont know or undestand Russia will force Ireland to join NATO for one reason - They hate Russia. Simple. they actually had Zelenski go to Greece and lecture them about not supporting Ukraine - he had with him an Azov commander of the infamous Azoz battalion - who in the Ukraine are killing and torturing Greeks.
What did the Greek parlament do? They cheered him. We all have a big NATO boot up our arse and are doing what we are told.
@@ABC1701A There is a declared "Defence Zone" that covers the North Sea, Ireland and stretches out to Iceland that is policed by the NATO country with the appropriate assets, which is mainly, but not always, Britain as it has the largest/most effective military infrastructure. The USAF and the RCAF operate out of Iceland on the same mission.
@@terencehill1971 The UK are our defence, there is a treaty and they will defend us if needed - nothing to do with NATO and we aren't a NATO country. You often see the RAF flying overhead and if the Russians had come to do military exercises just out of our territorial waters I have little doubt the RAF would have been flying overhead daily while the RN were sitting nearby watching as well, probably in a sub. I remember the last time the US military passed through, they weren't very popular and people still comment on it today.
Irish citizens serving in UK forces during the Emergency is not an indication of a lack of neutrality in WW2. Those who deserted the Irish Armed Forces were punished on return and banned from government jobs. De Valera managed to find the time to sign the condolence book at the German Embassy/Legation(?) in Dublin after a certain suicide, 14 days after the liberation of Belsen.
I really wouldn't conflate de valera the man who had Michael Collins, who defeated the British Empire and gained Ireland independence, assassinated, with Ireland as a whole. 70000 Irish volunteers joined the British army, the very army that only 20 years earlier had been slaughtering Irish people burning cities and gunning down civilians at football games, that's a far more important symbol of what Ireland stands for than de valera being a politician.
He did not sign a book of condolence on the death of Hitler. That book was sold in a Belfast auction house in 1956. We would have seen his signature by now , which would have confirmed anti Irish views held by many in Britain . Check it out !!.
@@paulsmith4467 Well the Irish Independent paper (site) calls it a 'ghastly error'. The BBC suggests that de Valera offered condolences on the death of Roosevelt as well. What exactly is left to check out?
DeValera's condolences to the German Ambassador in Dublin on the suicide of Adolf Hitler was correct. You cannot pick and chose when it comes to diplomacy and international law. While it does not reflect the attitude of the state or the man, it was correct. This is the same principal as why Nato cannot impose a no fly zone on Ukraine, or attack Russian bases in Belarus, or send in troops.
It is also why you need to be cold this coming winter, suffer inflation, and let the casualties mount in Ukraine.. we cannot descend to Putins level or we have no way of prosecuting him and his heirs afterward. Do what you can, do not rail against what you cannot do.
De Valera did not speak for the majority of Irish people, ditto Hitler.
The Russian live fire excercises which were initially planned to take place inside the Irish EEZ scared a lot of people in Ireland. The Irish Naval Service, which is more akin to an armed coast guard, did not have the capability to stand up and prevent it. We were toothless. Our fishermen stood up to the Russians and said our fishing fleet will be operating in the EEZ during the live fire excercise. The Russians then moved it just outside our EEZ but close enough that we got the message.
We lack the ability to do anything to defend it. The Russians over the last 2 years have mapped the Transatlantic data cables that land in Ireland, coming as close as 12.5 nautical miles of land to do so with their spy/surveillance ship. This is because we are the weakest link and in the event of a larger war with Europe, they could easily cause huge damage by knocking out these lines.
In the event of a larger war, in which Ireland is directly attacked at all, I'd think the Irish military will de facto work in many ways as part of NATO. Just like Sweden's and Finland's armed forces would. But maybe not as actively as the Nordic forces tho, since Ireland's armed forces aren't really of the same type and haven't spent 100 years planning & exercising defenses against a Russian invasion.
definitely, however these Atlantic based attacks or moreso threats are the only reason nato could benefit us, giving up neutrality could have far more dire consequences from just that protection, and with the power we know the Russians possess, if they really wanted to, they would go all out and yes, they could do aLOT of damage, but waging war on a historicaly neutral country and republic prominent in most world discussion, would be a very clear message of waging another world war, especially with the UK and US on both sides. idk, im not entirely versed, this is merely my opinion however uninformed
as far as the Russian Navy goes what happened was Fishermen " hey can you please move this Military exercise over to the left a bit " Russian Navy " is that the Irish Navy ? it's just a bunch of fishing boats what should we do ? sigh ok let's move i know we don't have to but blowing up a fishing fleet is terrible politically "
Russia can cut the same lines anywhere in the Atlantic.
Thanks!
Over my dead body.
How could we enter into a military alliance with a country that occupies 6 of our 32 county’s?
...and which already defends your airspace for free anyway. Ireland is wise not to pay loads for a military it doesn't even need.
We don't live during the troubles anymore. We have ways to unify without violence so joining a defence pact is fine. That said the way the British play hot and fast with respecting the border is disgusting
@@kaffraraffin3574 We don’t need the UK to defend our airspace and the only reason they do it is to defend Britain from being nuked trough the back door
I would like to see Ireland build a proper airforce and army though to settle some unfinished business on this island.
@@tulligman Unfinished business? Intriguing.
Always amazes me that people think Britain wants NI. They tried giving away the effing place before and would do it again if they could. It’s also amazing anyone thinks ROI wants it.
The realization that Ukraine was "fair game" for Russia because they were and are not part of NATO is part of what pushed Sweden and Finland into the position where they are likely to join NATO. Ireland's position is different because it is unlikely that the UK or US would not get involved in the unlikely event that Russia targeted Ireland for invasion, even with Ireland not being part of NATO.
GARBAGE. 40% of Ukraine are Russians. 99% speak Russian..jeez do some reading apart from the headlines of the daily mail. East Ukraine 99% Ethnic Russian have been shelled for over 7 years by Western Ukraine. If Catholics in the North were shelled for that long, what would you do?
That's a pretty selfish perspective though. It's basically relying on the good graces of your neighbors without contributing; wanting the benefits, but none of the responsibilities.
@@jeffmorris5802 benefits? Like the destruction of Libya, Iraq, Syria, stealing their gold, oil, wheat..hmm no thanks No NATO for me.
@@hieronymusjacabusprincepso5060 Ah, a Russian troll. What's it like getting your ass kicked in Ukraine? Do you enjoy becoming fertilizer?
@@jeffmorris5802 The US and UK would certainly get involved if Russia were to invade Ireland, mainly to protect their own interests and also because it would be politically expedient to do so, as there is a large demographic of Irish people in both countries. But the Irish in Ireland WILL FIGHT and keep fighting, even if it takes another 700 years.
Ireland and Austria are gonna add very very little to NATO, they are also not in a strategic location so neither feels particularly threaten.
And of course, if shit seriously hits the fan both of this countries will side with NATO in everything but name so is not like it makes a difference if they join.
"Times change people change."
-Buzz Lightyear of Star Command
NATO is a mechanism for the US military industrial complex to flog arms to Europeans. Ireland isn’t going to commit 2% of its GDP to buying useless boys toys.
Russia would love to gets its hands on IRELANDS Ports which would outflank NATO.. America would never allow that to happen.. hence no need for IRELAND to join NATO .
English person here, I genuinely hadn't realised RoI weren't in NATO.
It's their choice to join or not. They are under no obligation to join and why would they anyway? Russia is far away and has little interest in annexing their territory. The same can't be said about Russia's neighbors.
Yeah, indeed, it's their choice to join or not, I hope Russia has the same stance with Ukraina's choice to join or not. There's no under obligation for either Ukraina or Ireland to join NATO, thou there's pressure for Ukraina to join NATO and there's some spurs of talks regarding Euroean countries that are a member of EU but not NATO or visa verse or neither.
Eeh, I mean Russia wouldn't annex North Korea, China or Kazakhstan, three of them have an aligned interest with Rusia, Russia has been hostile against Georgia with the war and stuffs, that worries Azerbaijan and Armenia that are in the same region even tho the latter isn't very hostile towards Russia. Ukraine? Very hostile. Belarus? Very friendly to Russia. Finland? I mean, with the stuffs ongoing in Ukraina, Finnish people are considering to join NATO
@@rakharashya1434
Imo they should join nato Imo
@@studiosx8561 Nah, it's better that Russia stop being aggressive, if they can't, then join NATO
@@rakharashya1434
No join nato overall
Let me giess, you get your info from the daily mail? No wait - the Express?
Neutrality in our country is very important to me and everyone I know. We’ve been under the control of foreign power for hundreds of years and forced into fighting wars we have no interest in. Also what many people from other countries don’t seem to understand is that we have very good relations with Russia (before the war) and China.
The Soviets were among the first to recognise Ireland and supported us, we also fought our revolutions in close proximity to eachother. Lenin even wrote of the Easter Rising, praising Ireland for striking back at British imperialism.
Our relationship China is more pragmatic in contrast to the more spiritual and ideological with Russia. China is a pretty important trade partner, Irish beef being their only importation of beef from the EU.
All in all, we’re on pretty good terms with many countries that we otherwise wouldn’t if we were a NATO member.
Neutrality is a fantasy. If you do not want Ireland to be under hundreds of years of more occupation then Ireland will need to get serious and get out of that fantasy.
@@bighands69 in all seriousness, what is this supposed to mean. Occupation by who? I don’t know what the geopolitical situation is in your imagination but in the real world Ireland isn’t under any threat of invasion. We’re not even that practical to invade, most of our wealth comes from MNCs because of our low corporate tax rate which is something that cannot be maintained if we’re annexed. We don’t even have much of a strong primary industry that could benefit an invader.
Occupying Ireland is more of a chore than it is a benefit, between limited nationalised industrial capacity and the issue of paramilitaries.
There have been over a dozen nationalist paramilitaries in Ireland during the last hundred years, most of them starting within the last sixty years. I have no doubt that they would explode in recruitment in the event of the Republic’s sovereignty being threatened. Hell, the Loyalist paramilitaries in the North would probably cooperate with them if they felt British security was at risk. This would no doubt but a serious strain on the resources of an invader that is gaining very little occupation in the first place.
To summarise:
1. There is very little to gain industrially from Ireland given our current economic strategy
2. Ireland is an island and thus would need to be invaded via navy. Navy invasions have serious logistical restraints and are more often than not fairly easy to deter, even for a country with a military like Ireland’s
3. Paramilitaries such as various iterations of the IRA would wreak havoc on the logistics required to occupy the island. This problem increases if British security is threatened as the Loyalist groups such as the UVF or UDA would take up arms and potentially even cooperate with the Republican paramilitaries.
4. Who would invade us? We’re not a threat to anyone, there is limited gain from occupying Ireland and we have good relations with many countries.
All in all, I believe it is you who needs to stop living in a fantasy world and to stop simping for multinational military organisations. I have provided solid argument in response to your strange ramblings.
It is honestly sad that you cannot even do a five minute google search to look at Ireland’s history or relations before trying to argue about them. I wonder, did you even watch this video?
@@Watchtone
The main reason why Ireland would matter to both China and Russia is that as a landmass it would act as a carrier on the edge of Europe to keep the Americans from providing supplies and to also attack the UK on the other side of Ireland.
As a proud Irish man do you feel comfortable knowing that Ireland is under the protectorate of the UK from a defensive point of view. The only thing currently keeping Ireland protected is the fact of its proximity to the UK.
We are inching close to the point of WW3 the longer the Ukraine war continues. There will come a point when Russia moves its whole culture to that of war and when it does that it will be going for broke. Hitler before WW2 talked about how it was worth destroying the world to try and achieve their aims even if it meant total failure.
Putin has probably already done the mathematics and realizes that Russia is going to collapse in on its self based on its current trajectory and will probably role the dice on this one. China is also facing that exact same problem and will do the same thing.
China to control and project power into the pacific needs to try and capture Taiwan because that is currently a block on their ambitions.
I know you do not understand what I am talking about because no body has every pointed this out to you before.
For the record, Ireland has NEVER 'OPTED' to NOT sign-up to NATO membership. As a sovereign-nation, ROI is perfectly entitled to 'OPT' [ as it has done ] for a 'neutral' geopolitical-position. This is a function of ROI's delicate geopolitical relationship with Britain, who was ROI's colonial-oppressor for many hundreds of years. Something vaguely akin to Austria's constitutional position on remaining 'neutral', but ROI's position is based on a much longer-standing geopolitical situation [ vis-à-vis Britain ]. Had ROI been aligned during WWII, the country could, very easily, have become a battleground, in that it covers Britain's western-flank. Hence, the 'neutrality' position. Furthermore, if people* choose to 'volunteer' for a foreign-army, then THAT is a personal-choice, and NOT a political-decision on alignment. [ *Those 70K 'volunteers' signed-up for the British-Army, during both World-Wars, on the basis of economic-necessity, as there was very little employment opportunity, within the jurisdiction, for the bulk of the last-century. ]
This article very much ignores the British question. Why would Ireland join its greatest enemy which still occupies its land? This is also the reason for opposition to Britain's war against Argentina, aswell as poor relations due to the bluster and colonialist outlook of Margaret Thatcher
Despite the fact that Ireland is neutral, our military is a member of the UN peacekeeping initiative. Irish troops have gone on peacekeeping missions in places like Lebanon and the Congo. We’re probably one of the best UN peacekeeping forces in the world. 🇮🇪🇺🇳👍
Edit: Being part of the UN peacekeepers allows us to maintain our neutrality while at the same time being able to contribute to the global community in terms of defence as well as humanitarian aid. As far as I’m aware Ireland, like a lot of countries, is sending humanitarian aid to Ukraine. We also currently have a seat on the UN Security Council. 🇮🇪🇺🇳
Irish military is joke, what are u on about.
Except when you send car bombs to the UK
@@Daniel-ih4zh Clearly you’ve never heard of The Siege of Jadotville in the Congo in 1961. Look it up.
UN peacekeeping missions are a joke. At best, they are on the level of a mall cop.
@@damienreilly4347 I think you’re confusing the Irish army with the IRA. So stfu! 🤬
They want us to but we won't
I think it's worth noting that many Irishmen joined the Canadian Army during WWII and other armies so the 70,000 figure is an understatement.
They would have there already and probably the same for the US army
As an American I'm so thankful for this channel. Our media here is nearly entirely focused on our own issues (which, to be fair, we have enough of to fill plenty of news time). It's so hard to get thoughtful analysis about news stories elsewhere.
We dont like America thousands of brits died for your oil companys in iraq and Afghanistan
I agree, but every time I get angry about the price of food going up, or how costly it is to go out.. I try to think what it would be like to be dodging shells, and sleeping in a bunker, where the best case scenario was getting out to live with people I don't know, whose language and culture I don't understand.. and having to be grateful, for being "safe" while I'd really like to be back home with Dad and sometimes Mom.. and Grandad and Grandma
I fully symapathise with you. US media is so far removed from reality that it makes me thing US citizens are reared to work in low paid jobs for the stupid.
BUT, US politicians forgot something with their endless oversaes wars -
-'Its all about the economy, STUPID.' US citizens don't care if military are bombing Bagdad or Kabul, but they will care about the price of gas and food.
I think you’re missing out on the fact that the United Kingdom is in NATO. At the time we considered joining NATO, an bunreacht na hÉireann (our constitution) had a clause in it (article 2) that claimed the entire island of ireland. This was not changed until 1999 as part of the good Friday agreement. As such at the time we considered NATO membership, it would have been unconstitutional to join since we would be joining a military alliance with the United Kingdom, who our constitution considered an illegal occupying force in part of ireland. It’s no coincidence that we joined the partnership for peace in 1999 after the Good Friday agreement was signed.
Ireland should be ceased to exist, basically its ruled by catholic supremacists.
@Zaydan Naufal no its more like air in
@Zaydan Naufal More like Air - In.. and insisting on Gaelic, when fewer than 5% of the population use it daily, is a marker of a particular type of propagandist.. Ireland, or Eire (Air - eh) ..is fine. Eireann.. that's like Latin.. Irish/ Gaelige uses possesive cases so when the translation is "the constitution - of Ireland".. of Ireland becomes "possesive" - bunracht na hEireann.. but Eire is nominative..
Neutrality does not equate to indifference.
Ireland has unique advantages in geography that allow it to navigate these issues safely. Good for them. ✅
Good show!
Fun fact: Shannon airport is still used as a transit point for us. My unit stopped there on the way home in 2018
No reason not to. Neutrality has nuances and friends are friends.
@@mikekelly5869
Neutrality is nonsense.
@@bighands69 ah, ok, that settles it so.
@@mikekelly5869
Tyrants do not care about such declarations they do as they please. Hitler invaded several neutral countries.
Standing out there claiming to be neutral does nothing.
I feel like it's important to clarify for any non Irish people watching this - this video should be saying the "Irish government" not "Ireland", as a lot of citizens don't agree with the decisions being made. For instance, when Shannon Airport was used during the war with the Middle East, there were mass protests nationwide and people arrested trying to stop Shannon from being used. Many Irish citizens want to keep our neutrality - our government does not speak or act for us.
There’s a lot of us who also realise neutrality is somewhat of a cop out in the modern world also and a real debate is needed, rather than throwing the toys out of the pram as soon there is a mere mention of such a thing being even discussed, let alone actually debated.
6:43 This is misleading. North Macedonia only took that long because Greece kept blocking their accession due to the North Macedonian naming dispute. For the uninitiated, the north Macedonian naming dispute was a long-standing quarrel between Greece and North Macedonia over North Macedonia wanting to be called just Macedonia. Greece has a northern territory called Macedonia, so they alleged that the North Macedonians were claiming that territory to be theirs, or that they wanted to eventually bring Greek Macedonia under their control. From what I can tell, the North Macedonians didn't actually want this, but they absolutely refused to change their name. Eventually both sides pulled their heads out of their asses and realize that they could just slap the word North in front of Macedonia and it would be amenable both sides. So that's what happened, in 2019, and after that Greece stopped blocking them from joining international organizations.
Yet video is correct, still took 20yrs
Is this relevant? Wait I'm getting GAS pains...
@@kw2142 I never said it was incorrect, I said it was misleading. The 20 years to accession was far above average for NATO. Using that as a "normal" accession process is a gross misrepresentation of reality.
The rest of NATO should have said to Greece over Macedonia 'Grow up, look at the Belgian province of Luxembourg and the Grand Duchy next to it, that is how to behave. Shut up or we will kick you out and let Turkey do what they will.'
Great video 👍
Congrats on 400k!
Recent polling here in Ireland shows a big majority against joining NATO .. which I agree with ..
AGREE.
besides, what can a bunch of drunkards add to NATO in any case lol
@@paulspacey346 say you’re a brit without saying you’re a brit
@@paulspacey346 We Irish 🇮🇪got Mountbatten and Airey Neave 🐎💩🇬🇧
@@woohoohaha7607 -you can be real proud of that, blowing up an old man fishing and killing someone exercising free speech - speaks volumes for the "quality" of the people and the cause.
Few items of note, I’ll try not to step on other people’s comments with this;
Irish neutrality was applied in, interesting ways. The issues you highlight regards the sharing of intel and joint war plans was actually common practice. The tenuous relationship following the Anglo Irish treaty as well as issues over the treaty ports meant that close communication had to be maintained between UK and Ireland in case of any anti-treaty IRA getting ideas. This would potentially give the British justification to invade and seize the treaty ports.
Joint war plans in case of Axis invasion was also common place as, well if you are at war you can say your neutral but in practice you are not. Both of these instances are about contingency planning to ensure state independence.
The policy of detention of Axis pilots who crashed in Ireland whereas allied pilots miraculously made it to the ferry with a trailer and tarp bearing striking resemblance to a spitfire or mustang is more accurate indication of Irish neutrality during the ‘emergency’.
Co-operation between Ireland and NATO, Partnership for peace, Euro Atlantic Partnership is very much a case of a minor power being part of geo-political events and organisations that have direct impact on the domestic and foreign policy of said nation.
A better comparison would be Irelands involvement in the war on terror whereby we are listed as being a participant. Note Afghan, Iraq, Libya were all NATO led operations, Ireland not being a member had no official active participation because of that. Despite this Irish Defence Forces were part of the first troops to Sudan/Darfur as part of EuFor in what was essentially a chapter 6.5+ capacity (i.e. peacekeeping where belligerent parties were not interested in peace, but peacekeeping forces were not an active participant in conflict yet). Note 6.5 is a UN term, EuFor was an EU led peacekeeping op, there is just more available material on UN Peacekeeping chapters than EU peacekeeping mandates.
With regards Ukraine, Neutrality is not affected by refugees.
The increase in military spending is based off the appalling conditions that the Defence Forces work with. For example pay is not enough to raise a family, defence forces members are not subject to the working time directive, so they are working longer hours for less than minimum wage pay. This has resulted in Naval service not being able to field crews for its vessels although the official line is said vessels are undergoing extensive refit.
Body armour isn’t personal issue, deployment of gear isn’t standardised for UN missions with incoming battalions sometimes having a varying standard of gear from the one they are relieving. Failure to issue Javlins to a relieving battalion where ISIS were using suicide BMPs in/near their Area of Responsibility is a prime example. This is all opensource, and verifiable, so not in breach of OPSEC.
In such context a vote for increase in spending doesn’t automatically correlate to an increase in support for NATO membership.
So crash course in constitutional law. The constitution is the highest law in the country, essentially it creates the institution of government (the government, the legislative houses, and the court system) and because it creates them they get all their power from it. It’s why it’s a great tool for beating them over the head with in court.
Ireland passed a referendum (28th Amendment) which introduced article 29.4.6. Effectively any measure necessitated by our membership of the EU is automatically given a level of deference the same as the constitution and therefore is automatically binding. Essentially the Constitution is the highest law but it doffs the cap to the EU and says because I outrank you, I will allow you to tell me what to do when it comes to use being friends and playing nice.
Article 42 of Lisbon Treaty changed the way the EU interacts with its member states, namely in the area of provision of military aid and the EU common defence policy. It’s expansion and clarification as a common defence pact has been established in recent times. In simple terms if any EU member is attacked all other member states are obliged to defend it.
Full application of Treaty of Lisbon is a measure necessitated by the European Union, not selective application of provisions, and considering the constitutional deference on compulsory measures, Ireland ratifying the Lisbon treaty in full with the 28th Amendment, it means we are legally bound by our signature to article 42, regardless of article 29.4.9.
It’s also worthy of note that ratification technically occurred prior to the introduction of article 29, and was done by referendum not government/EU legislation. This gives it more weight in legal matters because it was done by referendum.
Now, in practical application, Ireland is not a military power house, and we have a reputation of being able to outtalk our way out of damn near everything in Europe. Ireland won’t join NATO because of neutrality, if Article 42 is invoked there will be a brown trouser moment while the government tries to figure out why the EU is dragging us to CJEU and arguing a point that is taught in the first year of every constitutional law class. The constitution is the highest law in the land, no other source of law can overrule it, unless the Constitution says that’s ok, which it does in article 29.
One might say that no one actually thought this through before implementation, or thought it would be a good idea to have a separate option for Irish Neutrality within Lisbon…
For those of you still here, welcome to international law applied domestically, and thank you for coming to my ted talk.
Thank you for your Ted Talk, I would come again.
Very helpful, thanks. Greetings from West Cork.
It was an interesting read, thank you
Small correction : Luxembourg is actually part of NATO. The organisation should really be seen as 31 countries but Greenland technically falls under the Danish realm. Informative video nonetheless!
Also interesting, it means the Faroe Islands are also part of NATO under the Kingdom of Denmark mantra
omg guys i think he understood oversea teritorries
We are looking forward to regaining our demilitarisation and neutrality.
@@WilliamEeles And Alaska must be technically part of the US under the US territory MaNtRa.
Why not?
NATO has some very stringent requirements for membership. One of the more important things is an ability to make a significant military contribution to the Alliance.
Ireland just does not have either the resources nor the personnel to fill that contribution requirement.
Let's hope Ireland never joins the deadly NATO. So Ireland will remain in peace!
Don't forget about Austria 🇦🇹. Also, an EU country that is not a NATO member.
Austria, Nato and Soviet Union back then agreed to reunite post-war Austria if Austria stayed neutral
@@kurniaerfan7307 USSR is long gone and Austria is a member of NATO PfP together with Sweden, Finland Ireland, etc. With the EU Treaty of Lisbon Austria is no longer neutral. It's a new dawn for the European continent, with new challenges. The past is the past, now is now. 24th February 2022 changed everything.
Historically our only threat of invasion was from a Nato member , so I think we're fine
Ireland is part of UK🇬🇧.
@@simpmaster7995 no.
@@simpmaster7995 No it is not a part of UK except the six occupied counties.
@@timlinator except*
@@timlinator and it isn't occupation if the inhabitants want to be part of the UK, it would be occupation if Northern Ireland joined the South against their will
Probably because they don't particularly need to be. Who are they in direct threat from?
And the Irish so far as I can see don't agree with the military adventurism of the US, and UK when they illegally invaded places like Afghanistan, Iraq, and bomb Syria. I would assume Ireland is happier.....and able to maintain moral credibility....by remaining neutral from that type of stuff.
Irish people are generally not fans of those wars, but the hotter topic in Ireland before Ukraine was US and UK support for Israel. Palestine has major grassroots support in Ireland and there would be a lot of controversy with formally aligning with militaries supporting their oppressors.
@@krombopulos_michael ireland is literally the most pro Palestine country in Europe hell during the Troubles the PLO used to supply the IRA with Explosives to use in the North another supplier of that stuff was Gadaffi
Ireland is not "neutral" in a regular sense, it was leaked around 2016 ish that if Ireland is invaded, the British would gain access to there sea and air, basically they are protected by Britain, they are not neutral in a classical sense, like Sweden or Switzerland. Similar to how Serbia is neutral, but close to Russia.
Thats a threat isn't it?
GARBAGE. 40% of Ukraine are Russians. 99% speak Russian..jeez do some reading apart from the headlines of the daily mail. East Ukraine 99% Ethnic Russian have been shelled for over 7 years by Western Ukraine. If protestants in N.I. were shelled for that long, what would you do?
Switzerland though is completely surrounded by NATO members and I bet it's virtually impossible to invade it without other nations getting ivolved.
@@jasperzanovich2504 Austria also isn't a NATO member (and neither is Liechtenstein), but they are all, together, surrounded by NATO members.
You don’t deserve our protection AT ALL
Fact check! Leo Varadkar is not a 'former President'. He is a former Taoiseach, which is a little different. Apart from that, a neat summary of Irish neutrality.
Just for others info, taoiseach is our equal to the prime minister. And Leo is the current tanaiste which is pretty much the vice prime minister. He is also due to become prime minister again in 2023 as a result of coalition agreed with the current taoiseach.
Leo was Taoiseach, more like PM than President, otherwise decent synopsis
the answer is simple one of NATOs fonding members was and still is occupying 1/5 of Ireland
I remember in 2008 I was at Shannon airport where there was a bunch of American soldiers on they’re way to Middle East. It’s crazy looking back we crossed path with people on they’re way to war.
Leo was PM, not president.
Leo wasn't the Irish President, he was the Taoiseach(prime minister). Michael D. Higgins is the President
Interesting that the photo you use to depict the Republic of Ireland is , in fact, a photo of the Giants Causeway, which is in Northern Ireland, a constituent part of the UK.
Article 29 doesn’t say we have to have a referendum on joining NATO, it says we would need to have one of EU Common Defence:
“the state shall not adopt a decision taken by the european council to establish a common defence pursuant to article 42 of the treaty on european union where that common defence would include the state.”
Funfact, Russia was also part of NATO's Partnership of Peace.
yes, Russia was join Nato before Putin, but most politicals russians has prefered communist way like Putin "soviet", Russia never - never join Nato in longer years.
As a Irish person who is a very neutral person In general however with that being neutral while you have a country like Russia around doesn't make me feel safe In anyway
Ireland will be the last country to be in danger in this world, unless some brittish putin is born
i am against joining NATO but we really need to modernise our military and spend a bit more on it because right now its a joke .
@@Modestasgailius Errrr ye ? I don't think you have a military for a reason , you know the fact you want to have that little bit of Irish speaking Donbas back ,sorry I mean Ireland . So if you ramp up the UK would have to ramp up over the border . Not a great idea to have a hard border ,tanks and barbwire again ?. I mean Brexit was hard enough can you imagine that you have to but troops in that mix .That border is getting shut by one side or the other as militarys ramp up on both sides , then we get somewhere we don't want to be again . Don't think it would be long before British tanks started exploding then ?.
@@Modestasgailius Yes I agree our Military is pretty much a joke to be honest with you.
@@Touhou-forever you don't have hostile neighbours either
How large were the surveys mentioned towards the end of the lecture? David McCabe dublin
Youngest pilot kulled in WW ll was Squadron leader Irishman Paddy Fininnicune.
He flew with a green Shamrock emblasoned on his fusslage
Quite impressed with how much information you squeezed into 8 minutes. You certainly did the topic justice 👏
Could you make a video on Austria and NATO?
It only really seems to make sense during the specific circumstances of the Cold War.
0:42 "And that's linked below"
Okay... I guess no one actually checks the descriptions, because that link is missing here too.
Just for others info, leo was not a president. He was the taoiseach, our equal to the prime minister. And Leo is the current tanaiste which is pretty much the vice prime minister. He is also due to become taoiseach (prime minister) again in 2023 as a result of coalition agreed with the current taoiseach, where they will swap positions
Those aren't words, come on, you're making things up.
Ireland, unlike Finland and Sweden, has no belligerent neighbor. Nobody’s going to attack Ireland. They, therefore, have no need to join a military alliance. If someone should attack them, but I don’t know who, even without an alliance Britain and the US would come to their defense.
We’ll we do, but we signed a peace agreement with them and despite them lying its holding up for the most part. They are also nato members. So it wouldn’t be much good
Britain still occupies part of our country . Britain and u.s.pursue their own agenda and care nothing for Ireland, or a anyone else for that matter
AHEM....NOW THAT YOU MENTION IT..!!!
Wyo’ T’ you are not much good at history are you?
@@barryburketv An Englishman gave you the potato, which allowed you to have a chip on both shoulders.😃
My military airlift flight back to the States landed in Ireland... I think, it was the middle of the night and pitch black outside but the gift shop bobbles seemed appropriate. ☘🤷♂️
A year later, its still only our government that wants to join nato. The public are very vocal about not joining nato.
At 2:10 it says Ireland was called the Irish Free State in 1939, when it had dropped that name with the 1937 constitution
If you can attack Ireland, and you're not England, being in Nato is moot.
Our pointy stick has kept the icelanders away for a hundred years and it will keep them away for a hundred more
There is no requirement on neutral states to prevent their citizens joining a belligerents forces
I think it's easily explained in a historical context, we were colonised by the British Empire - after independence we didn't want to side with Britain - considering the previous generations just suffered a famine caused by British rule - no Irish government would have been taken seriously if they did so - many people here today support Palestinian independence, Ukrainian independence etc - because we still see the same correlations - NATO seems to be a military entity rather than economic peaceful body - so in my opinion I'd prefer to remain neutral as an Irish person.
Hi TLDR News EU, great video btw. Its very informative. Just wanted to highlight a error at 08:13 mins. You mentioned that Leo Varadkar was our former President. This is incorrect. Leo Varadkar was never President of Ireland. He was our former Taoiseach ( Prime Minister) and currently our Tánaiste (Deputy Prime Minister). Michael D Higgins is the President of Ireland.
There’s no demand here for us to join NATO. We can afford to be neutral. We already have security pacts with United Kingdom who secure our airspace and then our EU membership alone has a security clause.
We also don’t border Russia and therefore membership of NATO is not as pressing for us as it is to say, Finland.
Ireland can absolutely maintain its neutrality for the foreseeable anyway.
However! I do think we should be spending more on our armed forces and updating and upgrading our current military capabilities. We can still be neutral but our defence forces are. Not well equipped and we have a force of just about 7,000. I think we could probably be doing with tripling that, not only because of Russia but for various reasons such as natural disasters, emergency situations etc.
Ireland has a long standing policy of aiming to denuclearise the world, so joining a military alliance with 3 active nuclear powers wouldn’t even fit our agenda.
Ireland doesn’t need NATO.
Plus that would require you to spend 2% of your budget on defence, when that's simply not necessary
👏
Not freeloading at all.
It’s just a fact that Ireland is already quite secure militarily and doesn’t need to join NATO to get that security.
NATO enlargement right now should be focusing on Finland and Sweden where membership makes more sense.
But that’s up to them to decide, if they decide not too that’s absolutely fine as I believe they are secure anyway, I don’t think they would be freeloading if they decided not to.
We already have some of the best snipers and special forces in the world. Spending more on our military would be great so our standard soldiers, navy and Air force is on par with our special forces
@It`s okay. I'm sorry but government funds should prioritise their people over military if they can, Ireland is in a fortunate enough position to do so. Regardless, what difference could Ireland make if it did spend much more on defence? Very little, but that money can benefit their people greatly
As an ireland person myself ireland is a good country to visit if your on holiday
Ireland hasn’t never been neutral as we have never fulfilled the obligations placed on neutral states under international law
We claim to be neutral but we are “neutral”
Basically we aren’t part of a military alliance, we are part of the EU Common Defence (but it is up to us how we participate)…. On that after a terrorist attack France invoked common defence and we agreed to deploy more troops to Mali
By neutral we really mean we don’t actively participate in hostilities
That isn’t neutrality
Prior to watchikg the video, not having given it a minutes thought: why would they? They have the entirety of Europe between them and any threats. Their only neighbour, UK, arent exactly likely to invade all of a sudden. The only real disputes (outside of the troubles... duh.) In the area have been about fishing rights. And until recently, those kinda issues went to the EU courts. There have literally been no need to join Nato. Hell, their position as unaligned have even been a boon in international politics and economy.
Well, and even if their neighbor did invade, their neighbor is a part of NATO, so being part of NATO wouldn't help them.
@@SittingOnEdgeman indeed.
@@SittingOnEdgeman NATO does tend to prevent war between its own members, but Ireland is safe from the UK just purely because the UK has zero reason to want to control Ireland anymore. If the UK could easily jettison NI entirely it probably would like to do so.
ireland is surrended by friendly countries like the UK and france, but it doesn't have the ability to defend itself if it is attacked from the sea or air
UK isn't that friendly anymore
@@edgardebruin5539 shouldn't be friendly to such a country.
Friendly UK whose occupying half of you country,
@@edgardebruin5539 Any time you want to end the free travel arraignments between the two countries, please let the Brits know.🤣
@@realShikha885 Well, you had better do something about the fact Ireland gets 50% of its natural gas piped from the UK…………Would you like them to turn it off?……….Let them know.🤣
@8:10
Slight discretion. Leo is the former Prime Minister (or Taoiseach in Irish), not the former President.
8:12 Leo Varadkar was former Taoiseach not president.
Irelands presidency is a symbolic role where as the Taoiseach (pronounced Tee-shuck) is head of government similar to prime minister in Australia et al
I don't disagree with you guys often, however, saying that Great Brittain was the last bastion of resistance (2:06) is making light of the fact that every occupied country in Europe had resistance fighters and that those countries are considered 'occupied' instead of 'Germany', clearly stating that they are hostile towards the invaders. Correct would be to say that Great Brittain was one of the last FREE states in Europe. Not last resistance. I know this is just how you word it, but it does make a huge difference especially with how many lives of resistance fighters have been lost during the occupation.
Yeah but realistically they couldn’t oppose without the UK being alive.
The UK provided intelligence, weapons, and training to Resistance groups.
Although you are a indeed right about the phrasing.
@@natenae8635 Yes, I never said they could or couldn't have done it without the UK. Same goes the other way too. It would have been incredibly difficult to get D-Day going if it weren't for resistance in occupied territory. I know for a fact that my grandma's brother was ordered to make bunkers on the beach and they would put sand in between concrete sheets to make it easier to bomb them.
This comment was indeed more about phrasing.
Unless you take into account what "bastion" actually means, then it makes sense
Indeed, and though we in "the West" don't always understand this.. the Russians, particularly the Russians of today and Vladimir Putins supporters think they defeated the Third Reich. They don't remember the amount of Free Polish, or Finnish or Germans who fought.. they think the Siege of Stalingrad decided the end of WWII.. they have no concept of the Asia Pacific.. they think Russia defeated Hitler, the way Russia defeated Napoleon.. that's for real guys.. but the Greeks, the Cretans, the French, German, Spanish, Italian, Chech, Polish and Slav resistance.. forgive me for the peoples I've forgotten.. the Russian do not know or remember them.. they think it was them and then only that stopped Hitler and this is the story Putin is spreading.. they forget the USA and the Swedes and the Danes and Norweigians
It is why he can control the narrative and say that Ukrainians are bad people, Nazi's who want to threaten.. what.. "his Russia"...
He hates NATO because it is defensive, not aggressive.
@@Nahbyr your definition of bastion seems to be a bit skewed
Irish citizens are free to join any army that they want to. That isn't any breach of neutrality. Membership of peripheral NATO non-military bodies is, likewise, not a breach of neutrality. Alignment with EU economic sanctions, provision of certain supplies to Ukraine and helping Ukranian refugees are all in keeping with neutrality. It's absolutely a necessity to hold a referendum if constitutional change is proposed. "Many" Irish may argue in favour of dropping neutrality but even a relatively biased poll like the one referred to in the video shows that "many" is a definite minority.
From your accent you're British so you have easy access to information about Ireland. Since you clearly planned this video I'm surprised that you made the mistake of calling Mr Varadkar "president" of Ireland. This, in my opinion, is an indication that you are far less interested in Ireland than you are in attempting to sow seeds undermining Irish neutrality. If you had researched a little you might have come across reasoning that was in situ until relatively recently: until the constitutional change brought about to facilitate the 1998 Good Friday Agreement Article 3 of the Irish constitution substantiated coflict between the UK and Ireland in relation to the territorial claim over Northern Ireland, so besides a reluctance to abandon neutrality NATO entry would most likely have been impossible for Ireland under NATO rules.
There are good reasons for Irish neutrality and it doesn't prevent the country supporting others in non-military ways. My own opinion is that a referendum asking if the constitution should be changed in this regard would return a "no" result and I think that it's unlikely that such a referendum will be proposed in the foreseeable future.
Hitler invaded several neutral countries. It only matters when other countries recognise that neutrality.
Had to replay that part when he said Leo Varadkar was the Irish president lol
8:13 - Leo Varadkar (Tánaiste of Ireland) was never President of Ireland. He was however Ireland’s Taoiseach from 2017-2020 (similar position to a Prime Minister).
Being squached between the nr.1 military in the world and the number 8 and also being an island gives them the luxury of not having to join NATO. For the baltic states and poland it is really a different story.