Watch it all the way through, nothing worse than a person who watches 1 minute, decides what the topic is and then comments something totally incorrect....
Not that it's strictly important, but did I miss you mentioning Blood Angels in relation to their use of MKVI during the Heresy? Particularly with GW rather inexplicably giving Zephon a set with last years Black Library model.
I’ve always taken the lack of a run-up time berween mk6 and mk7 to be that they were parallel profuction models. While Corvus saved mk6, it was still clear that multiple legions didn’t care for it. So they stripped Mk6 down to the core mechanics and re-built it with more sturdy, frontal-assault suitble armor. Hence why it took so little time. It was just mk-6 with the outer plates (and knees) changed. Hence why most of the components are flawlessly compatible compared to other marks.
Yeah this is what I was thinking I believe the helmet used to be the same scale minus the beak so it is possible they pig grill just just took the beaks place on the helmet
Yes, there is an ancient mechanicum ritual whereby am unpopular product is altered very slightly overall, bit changed greatly in appearance. Frequently, expensive extra features also get dropped at this point. The increased time efficiency is said to be pleasing to the machine God as it frees his servants from being forced to listen to the whining complaints of the unfaithful.
So, I tend to frown on the newer Canon on mk6 Armour and it's roll out. HOWEVER, there is a point to be made here as far as timing and production scale. In WWII, you had nations of millions employing companies of thousands, sometimes up to tens of thousands, to equip armies of hundreds of thousands or millions. In the Horus Heresy, you have multiple factory planets of millions to billions, equipping legions of space marines capping out in the low hundreds of thousands at largest. A further note is that, when properly motivated, a nation can pump put ridiculously complex products in a very short time. The US pumped out something like 24 Essex-class carriers, with a build time around a year each, in a 4 year period. Liberty ships were taking something like 6 weeks each. That's one country, that also has to produce most/,all the other war material and regular goods it would need during that same time period. With forge worlds and manufacturing planets, the production scale is so ludicrously larger, that while it's goofy to think that it took 200 years to go from mk2 to mk4, and then suddenly like 2 years to go from mk4 to mk6, but it's not that inconceivable, especially if the parts overlap is significant (I suspect, due to the backwards compatibility and field interchangeable nature of mks 2-6 that this is the case). Also while the imperium faced tough opponents during the crusade, by and large mk2-4 got the job done. Perhaps pressures to out perform massed power Armour accelerated power Armour development and shifted priorities as far as production? Just a thought. I still prefer the old school time-line, where mk6 barely existed at all during the heresy.
Fun fact. The modern chaos backpacks were actually late crusade prototypes intended to fix the energy problems on the MKIII but the idea was scrapped as soon MKlV started rolling out.
You can see this in the Heresy with Caipha Morarg's black book art, mk3 with Anvilus style vents. 10k years later, a significant portion of the plague marine models have a similar style of mk3 backpacks with the vents that swing out far to either side of the marine.
Anyone who work in logistics (military or otherwise) will in all likelihood be able to understand what I'm going to present to you: You are Legionary Steven of the [insert loyalist Legion here]. You have been equipped with Mk2 power armour and a phobos pattern boltgun for about the first 30 years of your 50 year ( total so far )"career" as a line astartes (tactical marine). You have some experience in other Power armour like the Mk3 and Mk4 but not anything note worthy. Suddenly the heresy begins and you have been fighting horus's forces in your area of operations for quite some time and keeping with fixing your issued Mk4 armour as well as trigus boltgun and now almost 10 years of getting through extreme conditions at first but now you are now being able to just manage to resupply each time. At first it was difficult for you and your squad to even get basic supplies and control of the situations you were found in now the tide has turned and you managed to survive what seems to be the worst of the conflict. You are now issued with a new Mk6 and umbra boltgun that you were not trained with or have replacment parts for just today because someone up far higher up the chain of command desired to have all tactical squads in your battalion equivalent equipped with the newer patterns rather than the other specialist forces who don't like it and don't want Mk6 and have complained to the primarch and get to keep their modified Mk2,Mk3 and Mk4 suits. Those observational among you will see a picture being painted.
Part 2: heresy burger. You are Legionary George of [insert heretic legion here] Like legionary Steve you have been fighting with Mk2 power armour and phobos pattern boltgun for about the same time. However when the heresy begins you were one of the first equipped with the then new Mk4 power armour and trigius boltgun. You have been fighting against raids by blackshields and Loyalists harassing your supply bases for quite some time you don't have any replacements for your Mk4 armour but you could use extra parts "locally sourced" from the battlefield and forge worlds that your superiors control. Your superiors are bickering among themselves constantly over pretty much anything and they barely get any supplies to your squads let alone the fact military bearing and structure has been decreasing quickly becoming no more than tribal warlords who barely knows what tactics and logistics are. You have been hunting Loyalists and constantly looking for new opportunities for supplies and other consumables of conflict with the imperium as well as not being a punching bag for your now possibly insane "lord" during his tantrums and defeats on the battlefield in conventional combat. You do what you can to try to make your life easier but it is just withdrawal after withdrawal and the supply sources quickly become non efficient to say the least. Desent food has become a luxury that cannot be afforded. you and your tactical squad becomes less tactical and more desperate in general. Your Mk5 mismatched suit and yourself has survived the last 10 years with quite a bit of damage so far and you managed to get a reasonable mass-produced boltgun that doesn't jam often enough. Now your superiors who are still arguing and now even murdering each other and your friends because "lol chaos". Suddenly just as you were away out off armour getting some R&R while you can before the big push on the Sol system your primarch has declared that all tactical squads are to be equipped with Mk6 and umbra boltguns but yet the primarchs favourite troops are equipped with Mk2,Mk3,Mk4 and Mk5 (in some cases these guys literally fused with their armour) and they don't seem to give a fuck about anything other than what they want to do.
Ngl, I told a friend mk6 being used wouldn't be too bad if it was for specialist squads like veterans or recon teams task with specific missions in kill team like situations or in a larger game used like space marine scions instead, almost like each set of armour being issued if for a unit with a specific purpose on the battle field rather than durrrr always has been Mk6.
The Mk. II/III looks the coolest to me, so I'll pick them no matter if it's 30K or 40K. All the retcon did was weaken my desire to invest in whatever new story they have in plan.
I really like Mark 3 and 5 personally unfortunately they haven't really invested that much in heresy pattern armour despite it being highly prominent in the war especially over time.
Good video Macca. The bits of insight into the logistics to make things was always my favourite parts of the Imperial Armour books. Hate when the writers are like "so these 7000 marines formed a line and shot the 9,000,000 bad guys until they were victorious." Putting thought into the logistics of conflicts makes them so much more interesting, now if only writers at gw would begin to care like the old writers did.
There's something cool about Thunder Warriors. The Macho Man goggles, the Oni Samurai masks, segmented armor, and long haired helmet plumes. The fact that they're made only for burning down old Terra, literally unable to serve the Crusade expansion. That last defiant shout as they're exterminated. Radical. Fucking radical.
Pretty sure we will see Mark 2 at some point (hell, it already exists with some of the tank sprues). I don't mind the Mark 6 myself, but I would have much rather seen the inverse. With them starting with Mark 2 on everything then bringing out mark 6. But unfortunately we have to deal with mark 6. Now for the SoT it makes sense I guess, but for earlier conflicts not really, unless you're Raven Guard or Alpha Legion.
One of the best ways to get a feel and understand logistics in a military setting is foxhole. Every tank, every gun, every grenade, every clip of rifle ammo made directly by hand by someone in a server hundreds of kilometres big with people personally dedicated to building not just bases but railway lines, trenches, pill boxes AT mine fields etc. The logistics for that can be both fun and a nightmare trying to harvest, construct, load and dispatch to the front lines, assuming you're not going to be ambushed by partisans.
Fantastic video. If you consider making more videos exploring non standard legion formations and colour scheme ideas I think that'd be a big hit but all this logistical exploration is just as fantastic.
I appreciate you making this video. The associations made to modern war logistics paints the heresy in a new light. Not only was it chaotic, but an absolute logistical nightmare.
with the mark 2/3 having the locked helmets, its reasonable to assume that some point pre/post mark 4 they applied the upgrades to allow them to turn their heads as a stopgap measure, as nearly all art/official models of heresy marines in mark 2/3 armour have it depicted as being able to turn heads
I love mkII so much. It looks great on White Scars. I have a soft spot for mk6 as that is the og 40k armour. I've always loved beakies, I hate how GW (not FW mainline GW) shoved mk6 into the 'main armour' kit so they could sell kits. I'd love if they did a plastic mk2 but well they still haven't made Assault Troops, Despoilers and Breachers in plastic so im not holding my breath. I love these thought experiments on how "it would really work" in a Galaxy spanning empire. Logistics, Tank marks, phasing out older tanks for newer tanks, legion stores and internal culture, legion production and Expeditionary Fleet mobile production capabilities, recruitment (most legions just couldn't of stolen all the kids and inducted them as psycho-Indocturination for most legions wasn't a thing yet), how the different Fleets operated. There is soooo much more they could of done with the HH books. The FW black books kinda sorta touched on it (I loved the early legion history and the picture of each early legionnaire) but the novels could of done so much more. Instead we got damnation of pythos, battle for the abyss, "wet leopard growl's" and a million short story books (also tons of novella's). Oh what could of been.
Excellent take on the topic, well summarised and informative from start to finish. Well done, thanks! None of the whole "here is all new Mk.VI for a HH starterset" makes ANY sense from an in-universe perspective. There is no logical narrative reasoning for why all legions have widespread access to Mk.VI armour, even after the (rather silly) retcon. None of this would have flown under Alan Bligh, so I can empathise with "oldschool HH fans" over what they must at least partly experience as a violation of established lore and setups. This was done to sell new models, there is no need to sugarcoat it. Like the models or not (I actually like them a lot), like the approach of GW to sell more new things or not - but nobody should pretend that this has ANYTHING to do with background reasons or an attempt to "develop the storyline" or what have you.
I have to admit while I really like the MKVI armour I also play Blood Angels which are in a weird position - if you're doing Siege of Terra then well, they get pretty much everything including MKVII stuff. But if you're looking at Signus Prime era of the Heresy then it seems extremely unlikely they'd have much if any. Unless say Horus gifted them a load before Signus as what he thought would be an act of sabotage, but again much like the Raven Guard it worked in the Blood Angels' favour due to their fast attack fighting style and extensive use of jump units.
I have always wondered why they haven't reflected the different Mk's with different rules as they do with Terminator armour. They have so much fluff to play with to tweak the rules.
Simple issue is rules bloat. For something like an RPG it would be easier to tackle, as focusing on individual figures, but wargames have too many pieces to worry about. For a demonstration, take a Tactical Squad with 10 men 10 possible different armour loadouts Then consider that they don't have to have 'pure' armour types, like Praetorian or Stygian or Sarrum pieces of armour or even mixing with the overall armour types. Using the Blackshield in the video; MkIV Helm, Mk IV right gauntlet, MkII Body, Legs, and Left arm, and MkIII Plate on Right leg And now consider trying to do those loadouts for up to 20 men in a Tactical Squad And then another for the second troops choice
My understanding is that from the thousand foot view that is the warhammer 40k tabletop game, the differences in protection between the power armor variants are insignificant compared to the difference in protection from power armor to carapace or terminator armor. The difference in protection level between sisters of battle power armor and space marine power armor is unimportant when you’re dealing with a plasma gun
@@samsolopeeps He said “…compared to the difference in protection to carapace or terminator armor…” which establishes that there is a large enough difference. Regarding the Terminators themselves, this is because there is often a legitimately large variation in durability and speed.
I love waking up to an outer circle video! Best thing about the time gap. Macca please do a short vid on the mechanicum stuff we can take alongside different centurion consuls!
The way I made it make sense in my head when for example iron warriors wear mk6 is that those who wore is were disgraced/unfavoured by their legion or primarch so they would get leftover less suitable gear on purpose
Great video, and I love these types of things as I am in that field now in the civilian world and helped clear logistics lanes as an engineer during deployments.
So I don’t say this with confidence, hard to keep track of all the info over the past 20 years and how it has changed but… last I recall the whole idea was the Corvus was supposed to be the next iteration, places were being retooled for them and then the Horus heresy occured in full swing, hence some facilities were producing pieces equivalent to the Mrk 6 but not the full set. Last I recall the Mrk 6 was intended to highly modular, able to incorporate the prior Mrks as needed or desired. This, in my mind, would allow for an easier integration into the various forges and, I believe, result in the diverse appearence of the armour across the legions (explaining arbitrary helms and the like) but also resulting in the Heresy armour proper. All said, yes, the Mrk 6 and 5 should probably be swapped, but it was probably officially recognized in full by the ragged Imperium and they did a thorough job of reassigning whatever they felt like soooo. Production though, yeah, I’d reckon true suits of them were largely produced post heresy by locations that were equipped for it, but during the heresy, we can imagine some forges went into overdrive, but their armour was likely more Heresy armour rather than Corvus. Fun stuff huh 😬
Macca, in some ways it is quite realistic, that the development of power armour sped up when they became better and better at designing it, if you compare how fast armour developed during the 14th and 15th century, as we went from primarily mail over the coat of plates to more and more sophisticated styles of full plate
I only started in the heresy with this new edition with the age of darkness boxset, however I do have some MK III and MK IV which were for my custom ultramarines successor chapter, the knights of calth, which I plan to use as vetran squads to denote them being veterans of the battle of calth. Since my legion is a post calth force, I plan on rationalizing that the MK VI are inductii forces pulling out the prototypes that were assigned to the legion for testing as well as having limited supplies of newly manufactured MK VI from the Forge worlds of Konor, Anuari and Gantz all of which lie in the boarders of ultramar. I still plan to get more MK III and MK IV but for now it should suffice.
2 things 1) being a gun nut, the comparison between PA Mk.s and the Garand, 14, and 16 help explain a lot of things to me. 2) the best fiction has a solid basis in reality.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: 30K boxes should have been as follows: 1: Istvaan, mk II armor World eaters vs Iron hands 2: Calth (as it was) 3: Prospero (as it was) 4: Thramas, mkV armor, Night Lords vs Dark angels, ZM themes 5: Terra, mk VI armor (basicly the current set)
They could have retconned the “heresy” pattern armor to be a dual meaning term, because the techmarines had to hack the machine spirits of the various armors (Tech Heresy) to make the various builds work and also because it was rapid and desperate attempts to get their warriors back out in the field. But they’re GeeDub and they dropped that ball.
In the traitor side i can see argument of why ec become tied with mk6, outside of their preference for fast moving and sensory love. The main functioning ec force under eidolon ran with death guard after white scars or with pert in angel extermintus. I could see them trading off bulkier sets with these two legions who infamously hated mk6
I dont know much about the lore but from a logistics point of veiw imo i dont think many forgeworlds would produce mk 6 unless they were already basically converted to produce that or if they had been attacked and many factories that produced power armor were destroyed and many legions didn't like it so it would be a netche power armor. Why would they waste resources or man power to make disliked equipment it doesnt make sense. But I do believe many foregworlds would be producing mark 4 that was the one would make since almost if not all had already been converted over to produce that mark by the outset of the hersey just from a timeline perspective.
There's also the LE-2 (Lunar Expeditionary-Type 2) variant which was warn by the early prototype legionaries until they reunified with Mars and switched over to Mk. 2.
The American m4 (itself built off the old m3 lee chassis iirc) had like four or five different models created within like three years and in action concurrently
@@CyrodiilCome no just from north america to europe in ww2… Tbf the crusade ships had forges and things to produce their tanks so they didn’t always travel from mars or terra, and they used standardised designs in a similar fashion; theres a tonne of variants of each chassis for exactly this reason
Which video of yours details which legions used which armour and when? I know this video is in the same vein, but there's another one somewhere that goes into such detail that it mentions MK.7 being used by loyalists in the siege.
Good video! I tell most people to just mix and match parts on MK VI bodies to make their own Mk V - MK6 is just not too problematic for me to embrace fully.
Overall I enjoyed the video. I appreciated the thoughts on tooling and on the possibility that multiple different competing marks of armor may have been in production simultaneously. As an Alpha Legion fancier I am not and have never been bothered by the (supposed) retcon that MK VI armor was available to anybody who wanted or needed to resupply for the duration of the Heresy. That has in my opinion always been congruent with any era of the fluff: pre-Bligh, Bligh or post-Bligh. I've never held to the idea that because of a disagreement during the Crusade-era MK V testing that any Legions would pass up rearming with whatever armor is available. Aside from the few sentences in the Scourging of Scalland box I don't see any primary source examples of any legion refusing to use fullly upgraded production MK VI armor which according to Deliverance Lost even incorporated some plating upgrades. There are examples in the Black Books of MK VI armor in use by the Sons of Horus on Pg 152 of BB4 Conquest & by the White Scars on Pg 150-151 of BB 8 Malevolence with the shoulderpad on pg 151 being specifically noted as being issued to the Scars pre-Chondax (Malevolence being post-Bligh so take that with as much salt as you'd like). I'd also draw your attention to an example of Field MK V that occurs earlier in the book you draw from for your example, the Marauder on Pg 86 of BB6 Retribution has a suit of Field MK V that incorporates a Mk VI head, shoulders & one shin. Then in the novels the Space Wolves re-supply on Terra twice, once before heading out to Prospero then again before heading out to Trisolian after which they hooked up with the Raven Guard & recuperated on Deliverance. Then between those two fights they engaged in a dust-up with the Alpha Legion. For my money, there are few Loyalist legions who would have had more access to MK VI armor. My main point though is that rarity is relative. We (typically) aren't representing any Legion in its entirety on the tabletop. Looking at lists on Bolter & Chainsword in the common point ranges you're likely to see an average of 30-60 power armored bodies counting Rapier crew & Javelin/Speeder pilots, so less than 0.001% of a Legion's strength. At that sample size there aren't any legions at any point in the Heresy that couldn't have a full tabletop-sized force entirely outfitted in MK VI armor.
For Mark 6 and 7, there's an argument to be had for their quick production. Most likely, they were developed in tandem as prototype armors to see what works and what doesn't, mark 6 came first but had flaws so mark 7 improved on said flaws. That's why they'd be coming out during the Siege of Terra I do agree that GW poorly brought about mark 6 as the main power armor mark. They just shoved it in when good armor marks already existed, mark 6 should've been specialized armor, recon marines and the like. Same as mark 3 is common with breachers
I always viewed the use of various marks of power armor based on a veteran status/battlefield role. Great comparisons! MKII and MKV is the standard, most common suit(s), tactical/support/assault marines would be equipped with these suits more often than anything else. These marines are the most expendable, and they should be equipped to reflect that. MKIII is for (as you said) breaching and heavy support squads that just need as much protection as possible, regardless of veterancy. MKIV is for specialized units such as veteran tactical and veteran assault squads, these marines will benefit the most from the increased maneuverability the armor provides as well as making better use of cover to detract from the armor's slightly lower durability. MK6 is again, in my mind, reserved for specialists, such as recon marines, or veteran units. It is very similar in function to MKIV with minor improvements and advanced sensors, it should not be given to your run of the mill tactical marine. MKVII was pumped out in vast amounts during the scouring, with very little being produced at the very end of the heresy (not sure if this is even cannon anymore). MKVII to me was meant to reset Astartes power armor, a general design improvement over MKII, but maybe not as specialized as MKIV and MKVI. It was designed to replace battered post heresy equipment with a standardized fresh and functional design. Your standard line infantry would benefit the most from MKVII, as it was a dramatic improvement over MKII and especially any cobbled together suits of MKV. Veteran and specialized units could make good use of it as well, even to just simplify logistics, but MKIV and MKVI would still offer slightly better perks for specific tasks.
12:26 I’d want to suggest competing companies going for government contracts with different design ethos at play, but this is about the Imperium and they don’t take contract bids so much as say “you’re going to do it or else (tm)”
different forge worlds produce different patterns of the same tanks, guns etc. Hell the rhino had mars / demios patterns that are functionally the same but look different. Power armour is no different.
I love these types of videos! Hoping for a Terminator armour one soon as Tartaros is criminally underappreciated when compared to what it could do in the Lore. (edit: post-video this comment is less relevant) Another idea (but this would be a ton of work) would be to compare and contrast 30k's legion warfare with our modern day military operations. How would theatre and joint operations, ACC coordination, mission planning and execution look like in the 31st millennium? How much did the creators or authors get right? How much wrong? etc. etc. etc...
I like the old version where mk6 was in production just before the HH and would be quite rare even for the RG... In yr opinion based on the logistics issues what would the Night Lords be most likely to be equiped with? I was thinking 4-5 mostly because it's named "heresy" after all, but if crusade pattern is the most plentiful en general I guess my question would be did they get the preferential treatment from Horus in getting a lot of mk4 or would they be a force heavy with mk2 or mk3? Sorry it's a rambly question I just imagined the Night Lords would certainly prefer the greater flexibility of mk4 but that doesn't mean they got it... Nobody really liked Night Haunter after all lol. Great vid!
I don't remember what Legion he was from but an Astartes definitely had a MkVI during "Battle of the Abyss". The writer makes fun of his tinny voice due to the beak
21:51 Okay thank goodness you told us your fav ww2 tank, I should’ve know such knowledge. I was really concerned if you didn’t tell me. This insight has helped me achieve satisfaction :)
Mk VI is the primary armor pattern in the Horus Heresy game because the models pay direct homage to the RTB01 box of Space Marines, GW's very first plastic kit. The poses are identical. Most of the metal models (the were LEAD - this is even before pewter models) were also beakies. This was the first design for Space Marines. Even the vehicles in the Horus Heresy game pay homage to the original models. That's the entire idea. Mk II was introduced for the second rules set for 40k, as a metal body with plastic arms. Eventually, the new plastic marines came out and they were MK VII, with some MK VI heads and one Mk VIII torso (Errant pattern). I appreciate your logistics take on the armor situation, but the lore was written to fit the real world logistics of miniatures production and sales of the time. I bought into the new Heresy game only because of my nostalgia of building and playing with my old beakies. I even remember the White Dwarf article that was the introduction and construction guide for building a Spartan, which was a kitbash of an original Land Raider and Rhino with a bit of plasticard added. So, if you didn't know these things, well, now you do. Horus Heresy: Age Of Darkness aims to capitalize on the nostalgia some of us original Rogue Trader 40k players have. It has helped recapture my youth. A Lore logistics be damned. My Dark Angels wear Corvus pattern armor because I love it.
My personal take is that it's more analogous to the different companies producing rival designs and trying to get that big contact, before the war. Mk2 is on it's tail end with mk4 winning a big contract. Some forge worlds are still pumping out mk3 until their prototype heavy armor is approved. Because of mk4 teething issues corvus armor gets it's full prototyping test phase approved (which includes some extra production for replacements / parts, and hey we already are tooled up for this I guess keep making more). This can account for some spare mk6. But not really much beyond that. I guess alpharious (or more likely omegon) could have used his authority to get some black ops forge worlds to crank out a bunch more as it is a design he likes. Then, I guess, people keep finding shipping crates of mk6 as loot drop from fighting alpha legion? Just as planned? Omegon confirmed as vp of sales for GW?
Speed up of armor mods and new types kind of makes sense. Human on human violence tends to cause rabid changes to warmachines and equipment. Tanks and aircraft sort of thing. Forgot to mention mark 6 and 7 are compatible so leap to from 6 to 7 is not extreme. But I do agree mark 5 would be more accurate than 6. I'm baised to mark 6 as it's my favorite mark
I don't think it's right to expect 30K to be treated like a historical wargame, because GW is not going to treat it like one. Unlike WW2, whose facts are irrefutable and set in stone, 30K's facts are fluid. They are constantly being written, rewritten, and retconned in real time. If GW wants MK 6 armor to be commonplace for all of the legions, it's because they want to sell models. That's what they care about most. Selling models. Not the history, lore, logistics, believability, etc.
Interesting ideas! Nonetheless, since my planned army (traitor Emperor's Children) is based in the early years of the Heresy and I prefer the older armour lore (mkvi not being mass-produced for the majority of legions until near the end of the Heresy), I'm keeping my marines mostly in mkiv, with some mkii and iii here and there since they won't have been through enough really heavy fighting for them to need to replace their suits with mkv and mkvi yet.
It makes sense, but the people who accept/defend this sales-driven retcon, won't care about it. I still think that some lore limitations, should be updated, but not like GW is doing it. It is a shame, because, with this power armor explanation, you touched a little bit into a subject that i would like to have a breakdown/comparison. The power and capabilites of 40k different factions and its different "units", in a side by side manner.
I discovered games workshop in 1991, most of the products I bought were made in the late 80's. I loved EPIC and decided to concentrate on the Horus Heresy because that meant I didnt need to buy orks and eldar etc and I could repaint marines to create different armies. I can say with certainty that in those days EVERYONE was wearing MKIV armour. ok there was a very small amount of older stuff but it wasnt a big deal. So For me horus heresy IS MKIV armour. you can try and change it now, like pretending that the Roman were black people or something but it doesnt convince me. I was "there" and they all wore MKIV and to me they always will.
In 7th edition 40K not including pistol or heavy types. Or the special issue ammunition for Sternguard, there were three types of bolt gun: Storm belter, standard marine bolt gun and Sgt Tellions stalker pattern. That's it. In 9th edition there is TWENTY FOUR types of Bolt gun. Think about the logistics involved when you have to supply parts and ammunition for twenty four types of bolt gun over not just a planet like Earth, but across a feaking galaxy. It's maddening how stupid 40K has become since the introduction of 8th edition. Logistics was always an interest of mine as well. I also think about these things.
The legions during the heresy were an absolute cluster fuck with logistics dependent on where in the galaxy they were, if they were in the arsehole of nowhere for years they'd be poorly equipped with the more modern gear, but the ones at the centre of everything would be given much more resources. There have always been different patterns of boltgun, depending on which Forgeworld made them, its like in our world with the AK-47, all the variants follow a similar design and aesthetic but have different strengths and weaknesses such as the Chinese AK or the Soviet AK
@@the98themperoroftheholybri33 from what I remember, the ammunition type was the same for all patterns of Bolt gun in HH hence the identical game profiles. So likely the receivers were based off of the same STC so they could fire the same type of ammunition similar to any 7.62x39, 5.56 or whatever modern caliber you wish to compare. Parts commonality must have been part of the equation. It's different in current 40K because it's not just patterns of rifle, but completely different game profiles. The ammo, receivers, barrels, sighting systems, stocks are all different in order to get all those different ballistic results.
One thing I think should be mentioned is that all armour marks from 3-6 are still used in 40k despite the age of mk7 and the presence of mk8 in this time and yet the recent ret cons claim that mk6 is so popular counter that and make it seem like power armour was phased out much quicker than it was when a new mark was added
With the British tank issue, could part of the issue also be that, due to being an island nation, they put their best people onto the armed forces that could stop an invasion? At least up until the point where this stopped being as great a threat?
Take a look at a Tesla factory, to use a modern context. Each version of a Tesla car could be made in a separate production line. Or what Tesla likely does, it makes the one major line or sets of lines to make slight variations so they can make the different model Teslas. This isn't something the common factory could do as imagined in the early 80's, when the lore was first written. What WOULD help is if a single factory could make different Power Armor marks, however, as the Cult Mechanicus tends to sit on such details, it's hard to tell if they'd allow it. If they did though, I'd probably focus on Marks IV, VII, and X. And Mark IV can be dropped, so just Mark VII and Mark X then, which could greatly armor the NorMarines and Primaris for decades or centuries to come. And the SM HQ's and what not need to stop removing their helmets, or make one like the Space Wolves do, in volume, to let them use their better senses. More protection, longer life.
The original productions of both marks of armour had fixed helms however over the later period of the great crusade updated versions were created to allow head movement.
I believe that he said that the helmets were fixed in place when they were atmospherically sealed, which implies that they weren’t always locked “face forward”. I’m not sure that’s what he meant while saying so, but I’ve been watching Macca’s videos for years, and he usually doesn’t say something that he doesn’t mean, and I have always appreciated him for being pedantic when it comes to details. I’m in no way negatively criticizing him here, because attention to detail is something that I believe he and I both find important, so I think that’s what he meant. That the helmets can be turned side to side, unless they are locked in place due to the Marine leaving an environmentally “safe” area to go into a void area outside of an airlock, or if the enemy is deploying chemical or biological agents into an otherwise breathable atmosphere. They can then engage the helmet seal manually, or perhaps it has a sensor that will detect an unsafe environment and seal automatically.
The sad part is that there's no longer a way to make sense of the lore after the Mk VI retcon. It's like a minor version of Primaris, a change made via marketing fiat with no narrative first principles. There were good versions of this, such as the retcon that allowed MkII/III to have a rotating neck joint for modelling purposes, but the MKVI change is nothing save for a cynical way to generate a marketing push out of whole cloth. MkIV went from the standard Heresy era armor to being a backwater, destined for even more irrelevance once the forthcoming MkII/V kits make its old "heroic" scale even more ridiculous to look at
I'd say that like yhe ultras with mk4 they got some either in limited supplies or from enemies and reverse engineered it, especially tera and with its limited manufacturing in the sol system they just mashed it out qnd gave it to the new recruits
VII should not even be there. Legions with an infrastructure could produce their own MK VI. MK IV would likely be the most common for pretty much all legions. I have a really hard time believing that the legions and forge worlds would not correct the issue with MK II&III being able to turn their helmets.
Interesting. When it was explained to me I was told that Mk VI and Mk VII were variants on Mk IV. Much like Mk III was a variation on Mk II. As it was explained to me. MK VI was MK IV a bit less armor (which made it easier to manufacture), and a better censor deck in hunt beak. And MKVII was just kinda Jesus armor? It's somehow much easier to build than the previous two official marks and is even better armored than IV. I need to get my hands on the older books that explain this, but they're aggressively hard to find where I live.
The more I think about it ,1.0 feels like early mid heresy all 9 black books and 2.0 picks up were the tenth black book should have been,so 2.0 is a sol system seige of terra system, I may be clutching at straws with that but that's what I'm beginning to see
It's all because of the alpha legion, they produced all the mark 6 and stole all the other old armour from everyone else, replacing it with the mark 6 they had made. (New GW lore) "fiction can be fun" 😁
So we know MK6 was being rolled out before the heresy but some legions didn't like it. Mk4 was still in production, but was slow and hard to produce. When the heresy broke out those forge worlds making mk4 wouldn't have time to swap production lines to mk6, so had to find short cuts and work arounds so those mk4 production lines start making what is now know as mk5, i.e. badly made mk4. Mk7 was being prototyped as well, nothing odd in two different facilities working on different projects, but mk7 hadn't been rolled out to the galaxy at large was was basically only being made in limited numbers on Luna. I hope we see a mk5 kit in the future, but the whole point is its a cobbled together mess of parts from other marks, so is easy to make yourself from the current kits.
This is an outside of lore change for ip reasons if they see people selling knockoff marines with Beak helmets they have alot easier case to make to get that online store shutdown the other ones are more generic so it's harder to make the case thar it infringes same reason they killed off first borns they can't copyright the name space marine but they can primaris interblahblah same reason the changed the name of Eldar and imperial guard.
Really good and insightful presentation of the facts. I also liked your selection of examples to illustrate your point. I like the design of the MK VI but it is simply not logical to have this type around in masses like portrayed. Hence why I liked & like the idea of the heresy armour so much. Being unable to reach supply and being forced to think out of the box to create some sort of interim armour. Nothing to complain about from my end here ;)
While their fantasy universe doesn't add up, saying for our discussion we'll limit ourselves to these retcons but you can't bring up other stuff, is interestingly enough, not very realistic. GW will just say Mark IV was actually created a lot earlier, Mark VI was transmitted all over the place and it wasn't just made on Mars, and Mark V was made by forge worlds who didn't have access to the materials needed to make the Mark VI suits or their tooling. But otherwise tooling is a non-factor because we're discussing manufacturing planets and only in rare cases is tooling ever an issue because they can manufacture whatever they need with relative ease. Once they kick over one part of something's lore, the rest of it doesn't mean a thing until they reaffirm it. That's life in the cold cruel world of big corporate owned fun fantasy IPs.
Logistics makes me hard. Jokes aside it makes total sense that there would be a serious lack of numbers for the mk VI. It is why i dont like GW putting it in the large boxes, thou it does make sense on their part as a company in streamlining production and cost effectiveness.
I think mkVI looks coolest, and i also play alpha legion. Beakies all the way :) But there should have been a roll out of other marks in plastic FOR SURE. GW just makes no sense at all, it's futile to try and follow the logic of a company that (as of this heresy thursday) releases a weird chaos assassin for the game that is in none of the books, and NOT a kit with plastic marines with pistols and chain swords. (which literally EVERY player would buy, since you can make them into 2 or 3 of each troops/elites/fast and many, many more legion specific units......) so jeah... XD
Sshh....but anyone wearing corvus patterned armor might be alpha legionnaires. Except for me if course, I got mine as surplus from a supplier from Istvan.
White Dwarf 469 has a substantial feature based on this topic that answers quite a few of the questions raised… it even seems to make a passing reference to 3D printing when you read between the lines
13:00 The difference between using a MK5 Vs MK6 is like owning an Airframe versus Owning an Opscore Helmet If you don’t own the later You’re just a loser
Yeah ..the new lore for the mk6 amour distracts from its original lore , gives less meaning to each mk and has the likes of imperial fists or iron warriors wearing the weaker corvus pattern, to sell more models GW has shit on its lore ......when selling models far surpasses their care for the lore its a massive issue .....thematically ....mk5 would be best in the box set....both sides adapting and putting together random hap hazard mk5 as they continue to fight each other with more focus on fighting that being able to spend time producing decent armor....mk 5 production armor being a quick and barely sufficient solution ...... with the newer lore...its seems like mk5 doesnt even need to exist ...that there were always superior mks being produced in enough numbers in such a short time that mk5 wouldnt even be needed ..... You can have a story where close to its culmination both sides are hurting ..their last big battle has marines in the worse states of function ....suits of mk5 missing pieces and most systems and plate failing on both sides due to its intensity and no time to recover ....or you have a battle where everyone is in nice new armor.....the nicest armor as it seems nothing more that a standard day for them ... You have a small portion of them in mk6 as it is legion specific for the most part, its newly implemented for the other legions so only a few marines would have them elsewhere ....and then when it comes down to the scouring ..that is when you have the definitive mk6 come in ......traitor legions gaining access due to alpha legion machinations before the end of the heresy and raids on loyalist supply chain and even from dark mechanicum worlds ...... they destroy decent lore in order to move the timeline forward too quickly ....and in the wrong section of the timeline
The driving force to rid the galaxy of traitors, would warrant the mk6 project being fully realised with gusto and would make actual sense and good storytelling
Tbh I dont want any more kits in plastic as it removes the resin variants I would rater have mk3 mk4 resin models than a full range of mark6 but all in plastic I mean I'm sure white scars players like a plastic jetbike until they removed the resin ones in older marks and the new dreadnought says it all tbh give me models with character in resin over bland plastic ones any day
Watch it all the way through, nothing worse than a person who watches 1 minute, decides what the topic is and then comments something totally incorrect....
Oh I sometimes watch for 1 min decide your right and then turn off
Not that it's strictly important, but did I miss you mentioning Blood Angels in relation to their use of MKVI during the Heresy? Particularly with GW rather inexplicably giving Zephon a set with last years Black Library model.
Why do you care?! 40.k is a video game about super space wizards, made for 40-year-old children. Consume product!
Windmills do not work that way!
You mean this isn't a video about cats?
I’ve always taken the lack of a run-up time berween mk6 and mk7 to be that they were parallel profuction models. While Corvus saved mk6, it was still clear that multiple legions didn’t care for it. So they stripped Mk6 down to the core mechanics and re-built it with more sturdy, frontal-assault suitble armor. Hence why it took so little time. It was just mk-6 with the outer plates (and knees) changed. Hence why most of the components are flawlessly compatible compared to other marks.
Yeah this is what I was thinking I believe the helmet used to be the same scale minus the beak so it is possible they pig grill just just took the beaks place on the helmet
Yes, there is an ancient mechanicum ritual whereby am unpopular product is altered very slightly overall, bit changed greatly in appearance. Frequently, expensive extra features also get dropped at this point. The increased time efficiency is said to be pleasing to the machine God as it frees his servants from being forced to listen to the whining complaints of the unfaithful.
So, I tend to frown on the newer Canon on mk6 Armour and it's roll out. HOWEVER, there is a point to be made here as far as timing and production scale. In WWII, you had nations of millions employing companies of thousands, sometimes up to tens of thousands, to equip armies of hundreds of thousands or millions. In the Horus Heresy, you have multiple factory planets of millions to billions, equipping legions of space marines capping out in the low hundreds of thousands at largest. A further note is that, when properly motivated, a nation can pump put ridiculously complex products in a very short time. The US pumped out something like 24 Essex-class carriers, with a build time around a year each, in a 4 year period. Liberty ships were taking something like 6 weeks each. That's one country, that also has to produce most/,all the other war material and regular goods it would need during that same time period.
With forge worlds and manufacturing planets, the production scale is so ludicrously larger, that while it's goofy to think that it took 200 years to go from mk2 to mk4, and then suddenly like 2 years to go from mk4 to mk6, but it's not that inconceivable, especially if the parts overlap is significant (I suspect, due to the backwards compatibility and field interchangeable nature of mks 2-6 that this is the case). Also while the imperium faced tough opponents during the crusade, by and large mk2-4 got the job done. Perhaps pressures to out perform massed power Armour accelerated power Armour development and shifted priorities as far as production?
Just a thought. I still prefer the old school time-line, where mk6 barely existed at all during the heresy.
MK VII also has a strong spiritual significance as it represents the rebirth of the Imperium.
Fun fact.
The modern chaos backpacks were actually late crusade prototypes intended to fix the energy problems on the MKIII but the idea was scrapped as soon MKlV started rolling out.
You can see this in the Heresy with Caipha Morarg's black book art, mk3 with Anvilus style vents. 10k years later, a significant portion of the plague marine models have a similar style of mk3 backpacks with the vents that swing out far to either side of the marine.
That's a really good lore feature if that's true
Thanks, Fathead. I might convert that.
That makes so much sense! Do you remember where you got that fact from?
Really cool, where did you find that?
Funny this was just the topic on my mind a few hours ago. Logistics in a galaxy spanning empire is always fun to imagine, what a clusterF it would be.
Yes.
Anyone who work in logistics (military or otherwise) will in all likelihood be able to understand what I'm going to present to you:
You are Legionary Steven of the [insert loyalist Legion here].
You have been equipped with Mk2 power armour and a phobos pattern boltgun for about the first 30 years of your 50 year ( total so far )"career" as a line astartes (tactical marine).
You have some experience in other Power armour like the Mk3 and Mk4 but not anything note worthy.
Suddenly the heresy begins and you have been fighting horus's forces in your area of operations for quite some time and keeping with fixing your issued Mk4 armour as well as trigus boltgun and now almost 10 years of getting through extreme conditions at first but now you are now being able to just manage to resupply each time.
At first it was difficult for you and your squad to even get basic supplies and control of the situations you were found in now the tide has turned and you managed to survive what seems to be the worst of the conflict.
You are now issued with a new Mk6 and umbra boltgun that you were not trained with or have replacment parts for just today because someone up far higher up the chain of command desired to have all tactical squads in your battalion equivalent equipped with the newer patterns rather than the other specialist forces who don't like it and don't want Mk6 and have complained to the primarch and get to keep their modified Mk2,Mk3 and Mk4 suits.
Those observational among you will see a picture being painted.
Part 2: heresy burger.
You are Legionary George of [insert heretic legion here]
Like legionary Steve you have been fighting with Mk2 power armour and phobos pattern boltgun for about the same time.
However when the heresy begins you were one of the first equipped with the then new Mk4 power armour and trigius boltgun.
You have been fighting against raids by blackshields and Loyalists harassing your supply bases for quite some time you don't have any replacements for your Mk4 armour but you could use extra parts "locally sourced" from the battlefield and forge worlds that your superiors control.
Your superiors are bickering among themselves constantly over pretty much anything and they barely get any supplies to your squads let alone the fact military bearing and structure has been decreasing quickly becoming no more than tribal warlords who barely knows what tactics and logistics are.
You have been hunting Loyalists and constantly looking for new opportunities for supplies and other consumables of conflict with the imperium as well as not being a punching bag for your now possibly insane "lord" during his tantrums and defeats on the battlefield in conventional combat.
You do what you can to try to make your life easier but it is just withdrawal after withdrawal and the supply sources quickly become non efficient to say the least.
Desent food has become a luxury that cannot be afforded.
you and your tactical squad becomes less tactical and more desperate in general.
Your Mk5 mismatched suit and yourself has survived the last 10 years with quite a bit of damage so far and you managed to get a reasonable mass-produced boltgun that doesn't jam often enough.
Now your superiors who are still arguing and now even murdering each other and your friends because "lol chaos".
Suddenly just as you were away out off armour getting some R&R while you can before the big push on the Sol system your primarch has declared that all tactical squads are to be equipped with Mk6 and umbra boltguns but yet the primarchs favourite troops are equipped with Mk2,Mk3,Mk4 and Mk5 (in some cases these guys literally fused with their armour) and they don't seem to give a fuck about anything other than what they want to do.
"Thought being on the line was bad? Welcome to Imperium Supply pal, you'll be dead from overwork in a week"
Ngl, I told a friend mk6 being used wouldn't be too bad if it was for specialist squads like veterans or recon teams task with specific missions in kill team like situations or in a larger game used like space marine scions instead, almost like each set of armour being issued if for a unit with a specific purpose on the battle field rather than durrrr always has been Mk6.
You got me with the last part XD classic
God Dammit! I know what your implying 😭😭😭😭 fucking brass
The Mk. II/III looks the coolest to me, so I'll pick them no matter if it's 30K or 40K.
All the retcon did was weaken my desire to invest in whatever new story they have in plan.
I really like Mark 3 and 5 personally unfortunately they haven't really invested that much in heresy pattern armour despite it being highly prominent in the war especially over time.
I need more of these types of videos, they’re fascinating and a good learning experience
Good video Macca. The bits of insight into the logistics to make things was always my favourite parts of the Imperial Armour books.
Hate when the writers are like "so these 7000 marines formed a line and shot the 9,000,000 bad guys until they were victorious."
Putting thought into the logistics of conflicts makes them so much more interesting, now if only writers at gw would begin to care like the old writers did.
There's something cool about Thunder Warriors. The Macho Man goggles, the Oni Samurai masks, segmented armor, and long haired helmet plumes. The fact that they're made only for burning down old Terra, literally unable to serve the Crusade expansion. That last defiant shout as they're exterminated. Radical. Fucking radical.
Pretty sure we will see Mark 2 at some point (hell, it already exists with some of the tank sprues).
I don't mind the Mark 6 myself, but I would have much rather seen the inverse. With them starting with Mark 2 on everything then bringing out mark 6. But unfortunately we have to deal with mark 6. Now for the SoT it makes sense I guess, but for earlier conflicts not really, unless you're Raven Guard or Alpha Legion.
One of the best ways to get a feel and understand logistics in a military setting is foxhole. Every tank, every gun, every grenade, every clip of rifle ammo made directly by hand by someone in a server hundreds of kilometres big with people personally dedicated to building not just bases but railway lines, trenches, pill boxes AT mine fields etc. The logistics for that can be both fun and a nightmare trying to harvest, construct, load and dispatch to the front lines, assuming you're not going to be ambushed by partisans.
Fantastic video. If you consider making more videos exploring non standard legion formations and colour scheme ideas I think that'd be a big hit but all this logistical exploration is just as fantastic.
Could be a new series. Actually enjoyed the logistical side of the war, could you do one on legion vehicles next
I appreciate you making this video. The associations made to modern war logistics paints the heresy in a new light. Not only was it chaotic, but an absolute logistical nightmare.
with the mark 2/3 having the locked helmets, its reasonable to assume that some point pre/post mark 4 they applied the upgrades to allow them to turn their heads as a stopgap measure, as nearly all art/official models of heresy marines in mark 2/3 armour have it depicted as being able to turn heads
This is definitely my belief as well.
I love mkII so much. It looks great on White Scars. I have a soft spot for mk6 as that is the og 40k armour. I've always loved beakies, I hate how GW (not FW mainline GW) shoved mk6 into the 'main armour' kit so they could sell kits. I'd love if they did a plastic mk2 but well they still haven't made Assault Troops, Despoilers and Breachers in plastic so im not holding my breath.
I love these thought experiments on how "it would really work" in a Galaxy spanning empire. Logistics, Tank marks, phasing out older tanks for newer tanks, legion stores and internal culture, legion production and Expeditionary Fleet mobile production capabilities, recruitment (most legions just couldn't of stolen all the kids and inducted them as psycho-Indocturination for most legions wasn't a thing yet), how the different Fleets operated. There is soooo much more they could of done with the HH books. The FW black books kinda sorta touched on it (I loved the early legion history and the picture of each early legionnaire) but the novels could of done so much more. Instead we got damnation of pythos, battle for the abyss, "wet leopard growl's" and a million short story books (also tons of novella's).
Oh what could of been.
Excellent take on the topic, well summarised and informative from start to finish. Well done, thanks!
None of the whole "here is all new Mk.VI for a HH starterset" makes ANY sense from an in-universe perspective. There is no logical narrative reasoning for why all legions have widespread access to Mk.VI armour, even after the (rather silly) retcon. None of this would have flown under Alan Bligh, so I can empathise with "oldschool HH fans" over what they must at least partly experience as a violation of established lore and setups.
This was done to sell new models, there is no need to sugarcoat it. Like the models or not (I actually like them a lot), like the approach of GW to sell more new things or not - but nobody should pretend that this has ANYTHING to do with background reasons or an attempt to "develop the storyline" or what have you.
Im cooming.
King George: "How about you build me a train that looks like a tank?"
Train builder: "Aye! I could do that!"
I have to admit while I really like the MKVI armour I also play Blood Angels which are in a weird position - if you're doing Siege of Terra then well, they get pretty much everything including MKVII stuff. But if you're looking at Signus Prime era of the Heresy then it seems extremely unlikely they'd have much if any. Unless say Horus gifted them a load before Signus as what he thought would be an act of sabotage, but again much like the Raven Guard it worked in the Blood Angels' favour due to their fast attack fighting style and extensive use of jump units.
I really enjoyed this talk, thank you and subscribed!
I’m a mkii kinda guy
I have always wondered why they haven't reflected the different Mk's with different rules as they do with Terminator armour. They have so much fluff to play with to tweak the rules.
Simple issue is rules bloat. For something like an RPG it would be easier to tackle, as focusing on individual figures, but wargames have too many pieces to worry about.
For a demonstration, take a Tactical Squad with 10 men
10 possible different armour loadouts
Then consider that they don't have to have 'pure' armour types, like Praetorian or Stygian or Sarrum pieces of armour or even mixing with the overall armour types.
Using the Blackshield in the video; MkIV Helm, Mk IV right gauntlet, MkII Body, Legs, and Left arm, and MkIII Plate on Right leg
And now consider trying to do those loadouts for up to 20 men in a Tactical Squad
And then another for the second troops choice
@@LordKallig Yeah get that. It might work better in a skirmish game.
My understanding is that from the thousand foot view that is the warhammer 40k tabletop game, the differences in protection between the power armor variants are insignificant compared to the difference in protection from power armor to carapace or terminator armor. The difference in protection level between sisters of battle power armor and space marine power armor is unimportant when you’re dealing with a plasma gun
@@samueladelman6048 We do have different Terminator rules though.... just playing Devils advocate
@@samsolopeeps He said “…compared to the difference in protection to carapace or terminator armor…” which establishes that there is a large enough difference. Regarding the Terminators themselves, this is because there is often a legitimately large variation in durability and speed.
I love waking up to an outer circle video! Best thing about the time gap. Macca please do a short vid on the mechanicum stuff we can take alongside different centurion consuls!
The way I made it make sense in my head when for example iron warriors wear mk6 is that those who wore is were disgraced/unfavoured by their legion or primarch so they would get leftover less suitable gear on purpose
Ooh I enjoy this kind of video. Makes campaign writing far more interesting when you have cool real world factors to play with for a narrative point
Great video, and I love these types of things as I am in that field now in the civilian world and helped clear logistics lanes as an engineer during deployments.
This is the kind of video I love from your channel
So I don’t say this with confidence, hard to keep track of all the info over the past 20 years and how it has changed but… last I recall the whole idea was the Corvus was supposed to be the next iteration, places were being retooled for them and then the Horus heresy occured in full swing, hence some facilities were producing pieces equivalent to the Mrk 6 but not the full set. Last I recall the Mrk 6 was intended to highly modular, able to incorporate the prior Mrks as needed or desired. This, in my mind, would allow for an easier integration into the various forges and, I believe, result in the diverse appearence of the armour across the legions (explaining arbitrary helms and the like) but also resulting in the Heresy armour proper. All said, yes, the Mrk 6 and 5 should probably be swapped, but it was probably officially recognized in full by the ragged Imperium and they did a thorough job of reassigning whatever they felt like soooo. Production though, yeah, I’d reckon true suits of them were largely produced post heresy by locations that were equipped for it, but during the heresy, we can imagine some forges went into overdrive, but their armour was likely more Heresy armour rather than Corvus. Fun stuff huh 😬
Macca, in some ways it is quite realistic, that the development of power armour sped up when they became better and better at designing it, if you compare how fast armour developed during the 14th and 15th century, as we went from primarily mail over the coat of plates to more and more sophisticated styles of full plate
I only started in the heresy with this new edition with the age of darkness boxset, however I do have some MK III and MK IV which were for my custom ultramarines successor chapter, the knights of calth, which I plan to use as vetran squads to denote them being veterans of the battle of calth. Since my legion is a post calth force, I plan on rationalizing that the MK VI are inductii forces pulling out the prototypes that were assigned to the legion for testing as well as having limited supplies of newly manufactured MK VI from the Forge worlds of Konor, Anuari and Gantz all of which lie in the boarders of ultramar. I still plan to get more MK III and MK IV but for now it should suffice.
2 things
1) being a gun nut, the comparison between PA Mk.s and the Garand, 14, and 16 help explain a lot of things to me.
2) the best fiction has a solid basis in reality.
Phenomenal video. I love your channel. This one was especially great.
There is only MKVI. Nothing else existed.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: 30K boxes should have been as follows:
1: Istvaan, mk II armor World eaters vs Iron hands
2: Calth (as it was)
3: Prospero (as it was)
4: Thramas, mkV armor, Night Lords vs Dark angels, ZM themes
5: Terra, mk VI armor (basicly the current set)
They could have retconned the “heresy” pattern armor to be a dual meaning term, because the techmarines had to hack the machine spirits of the various armors (Tech Heresy) to make the various builds work and also because it was rapid and desperate attempts to get their warriors back out in the field.
But they’re GeeDub and they dropped that ball.
Great video, very informative and interesting
Videos like this reassure me that other veterans from around the world are finding solace in 40k.
*They will not take it from us fellas.
In the traitor side i can see argument of why ec become tied with mk6, outside of their preference for fast moving and sensory love. The main functioning ec force under eidolon ran with death guard after white scars or with pert in angel extermintus. I could see them trading off bulkier sets with these two legions who infamously hated mk6
Very interesting video.
I dont know much about the lore but from a logistics point of veiw imo i dont think many forgeworlds would produce mk 6 unless they were already basically converted to produce that or if they had been attacked and many factories that produced power armor were destroyed and many legions didn't like it so it would be a netche power armor. Why would they waste resources or man power to make disliked equipment it doesnt make sense.
But I do believe many foregworlds would be producing mark 4 that was the one would make since almost if not all had already been converted over to produce that mark by the outset of the hersey just from a timeline perspective.
There's also the LE-2 (Lunar Expeditionary-Type 2) variant which was warn by the early prototype legionaries until they reunified with Mars and switched over to Mk. 2.
I like the analogy to the US firearms
Very interesting, would be cool if you could discuss other logistical aspects of the heresy
The American m4 (itself built off the old m3 lee chassis iirc) had like four or five different models created within like three years and in action concurrently
To be fair, the m4 didn't have to travel millions of light years through the warp to different corners of the Galaxy to outfit millions
@@CyrodiilCome no just from north america to europe in ww2…
Tbf the crusade ships had forges and things to produce their tanks so they didn’t always travel from mars or terra, and they used standardised designs in a similar fashion; theres a tonne of variants of each chassis for exactly this reason
Really like your content . Wish i could get some inout from you on some of my questions on your other videos. Your probbaly busy
Which video of yours details which legions used which armour and when? I know this video is in the same vein, but there's another one somewhere that goes into such detail that it mentions MK.7 being used by loyalists in the siege.
Good video! I tell most people to just mix and match parts on MK VI bodies to make their own Mk V - MK6 is just not too problematic for me to embrace fully.
Interesting video, nicely done.
Rather enjoying these logistics videos, I hope you keep them coming. 👍👍
9:28 It also had a really funni beak
Fucking hilarious
Overall I enjoyed the video. I appreciated the thoughts on tooling and on the possibility that multiple different competing marks of armor may have been in production simultaneously. As an Alpha Legion fancier I am not and have never been bothered by the (supposed) retcon that MK VI armor was available to anybody who wanted or needed to resupply for the duration of the Heresy. That has in my opinion always been congruent with any era of the fluff: pre-Bligh, Bligh or post-Bligh. I've never held to the idea that because of a disagreement during the Crusade-era MK V testing that any Legions would pass up rearming with whatever armor is available. Aside from the few sentences in the Scourging of Scalland box I don't see any primary source examples of any legion refusing to use fullly upgraded production MK VI armor which according to Deliverance Lost even incorporated some plating upgrades. There are examples in the Black Books of MK VI armor in use by the Sons of Horus on Pg 152 of BB4 Conquest & by the White Scars on Pg 150-151 of BB 8 Malevolence with the shoulderpad on pg 151 being specifically noted as being issued to the Scars pre-Chondax (Malevolence being post-Bligh so take that with as much salt as you'd like). I'd also draw your attention to an example of Field MK V that occurs earlier in the book you draw from for your example, the Marauder on Pg 86 of BB6 Retribution has a suit of Field MK V that incorporates a Mk VI head, shoulders & one shin. Then in the novels the Space Wolves re-supply on Terra twice, once before heading out to Prospero then again before heading out to Trisolian after which they hooked up with the Raven Guard & recuperated on Deliverance. Then between those two fights they engaged in a dust-up with the Alpha Legion. For my money, there are few Loyalist legions who would have had more access to MK VI armor. My main point though is that rarity is relative. We (typically) aren't representing any Legion in its entirety on the tabletop. Looking at lists on Bolter & Chainsword in the common point ranges you're likely to see an average of 30-60 power armored bodies counting Rapier crew & Javelin/Speeder pilots, so less than 0.001% of a Legion's strength. At that sample size there aren't any legions at any point in the Heresy that couldn't have a full tabletop-sized force entirely outfitted in MK VI armor.
For Mark 6 and 7, there's an argument to be had for their quick production. Most likely, they were developed in tandem as prototype armors to see what works and what doesn't, mark 6 came first but had flaws so mark 7 improved on said flaws. That's why they'd be coming out during the Siege of Terra
I do agree that GW poorly brought about mark 6 as the main power armor mark. They just shoved it in when good armor marks already existed, mark 6 should've been specialized armor, recon marines and the like. Same as mark 3 is common with breachers
I always viewed the use of various marks of power armor based on a veteran status/battlefield role. Great comparisons!
MKII and MKV is the standard, most common suit(s), tactical/support/assault marines would be equipped with these suits more often than anything else. These marines are the most expendable, and they should be equipped to reflect that.
MKIII is for (as you said) breaching and heavy support squads that just need as much protection as possible, regardless of veterancy.
MKIV is for specialized units such as veteran tactical and veteran assault squads, these marines will benefit the most from the increased maneuverability the armor provides as well as making better use of cover to detract from the armor's slightly lower durability.
MK6 is again, in my mind, reserved for specialists, such as recon marines, or veteran units. It is very similar in function to MKIV with minor improvements and advanced sensors, it should not be given to your run of the mill tactical marine.
MKVII was pumped out in vast amounts during the scouring, with very little being produced at the very end of the heresy (not sure if this is even cannon anymore). MKVII to me was meant to reset Astartes power armor, a general design improvement over MKII, but maybe not as specialized as MKIV and MKVI. It was designed to replace battered post heresy equipment with a standardized fresh and functional design. Your standard line infantry would benefit the most from MKVII, as it was a dramatic improvement over MKII and especially any cobbled together suits of MKV. Veteran and specialized units could make good use of it as well, even to just simplify logistics, but MKIV and MKVI would still offer slightly better perks for specific tasks.
7:03 how do regular humans test it, or do they have older astartes who probably aren’t frontline operators anymore there to interface with them?
Techmarines go to Mars for training, seems not too far fetched that they'd be involved in such things.
12:26 I’d want to suggest competing companies going for government contracts with different design ethos at play, but this is about the Imperium and they don’t take contract bids so much as say “you’re going to do it or else (tm)”
different forge worlds produce different patterns of the same tanks, guns etc. Hell the rhino had mars / demios patterns that are functionally the same but look different. Power armour is no different.
I love these types of videos! Hoping for a Terminator armour one soon as Tartaros is criminally underappreciated when compared to what it could do in the Lore. (edit: post-video this comment is less relevant)
Another idea (but this would be a ton of work) would be to compare and contrast 30k's legion warfare with our modern day military operations. How would theatre and joint operations, ACC coordination, mission planning and execution look like in the 31st millennium? How much did the creators or authors get right? How much wrong? etc. etc. etc...
I like the old version where mk6 was in production just before the HH and would be quite rare even for the RG... In yr opinion based on the logistics issues what would the Night Lords be most likely to be equiped with? I was thinking 4-5 mostly because it's named "heresy" after all, but if crusade pattern is the most plentiful en general I guess my question would be did they get the preferential treatment from Horus in getting a lot of mk4 or would they be a force heavy with mk2 or mk3? Sorry it's a rambly question I just imagined the Night Lords would certainly prefer the greater flexibility of mk4 but that doesn't mean they got it... Nobody really liked Night Haunter after all lol. Great vid!
I don't remember what Legion he was from but an Astartes definitely had a MkVI during "Battle of the Abyss". The writer makes fun of his tinny voice due to the beak
21:51 Okay thank goodness you told us your fav ww2 tank, I should’ve know such knowledge. I was really concerned if you didn’t tell me. This insight has helped me achieve satisfaction :)
Mk VI is the primary armor pattern in the Horus Heresy game because the models pay direct homage to the RTB01 box of Space Marines, GW's very first plastic kit. The poses are identical. Most of the metal models (the were LEAD - this is even before pewter models) were also beakies. This was the first design for Space Marines. Even the vehicles in the Horus Heresy game pay homage to the original models. That's the entire idea. Mk II was introduced for the second rules set for 40k, as a metal body with plastic arms. Eventually, the new plastic marines came out and they were MK VII, with some MK VI heads and one Mk VIII torso (Errant pattern).
I appreciate your logistics take on the armor situation, but the lore was written to fit the real world logistics of miniatures production and sales of the time. I bought into the new Heresy game only because of my nostalgia of building and playing with my old beakies. I even remember the White Dwarf article that was the introduction and construction guide for building a Spartan, which was a kitbash of an original Land Raider and Rhino with a bit of plasticard added. So, if you didn't know these things, well, now you do. Horus Heresy: Age Of Darkness aims to capitalize on the nostalgia some of us original Rogue Trader 40k players have. It has helped recapture my youth. A
Lore logistics be damned. My Dark Angels wear Corvus pattern armor because I love it.
Small typo: Mk VII was introduced (not Mk II)
My personal take is that it's more analogous to the different companies producing rival designs and trying to get that big contact, before the war.
Mk2 is on it's tail end with mk4 winning a big contract. Some forge worlds are still pumping out mk3 until their prototype heavy armor is approved.
Because of mk4 teething issues corvus armor gets it's full prototyping test phase approved (which includes some extra production for replacements / parts, and hey we already are tooled up for this I guess keep making more). This can account for some spare mk6. But not really much beyond that.
I guess alpharious (or more likely omegon) could have used his authority to get some black ops forge worlds to crank out a bunch more as it is a design he likes.
Then, I guess, people keep finding shipping crates of mk6 as loot drop from fighting alpha legion? Just as planned? Omegon confirmed as vp of sales for GW?
Speed up of armor mods and new types kind of makes sense. Human on human violence tends to cause rabid changes to warmachines and equipment. Tanks and aircraft sort of thing.
Forgot to mention mark 6 and 7 are compatible so leap to from 6 to 7 is not extreme. But I do agree mark 5 would be more accurate than 6. I'm baised to mark 6 as it's my favorite mark
I don't think it's right to expect 30K to be treated like a historical wargame, because GW is not going to treat it like one. Unlike WW2, whose facts are irrefutable and set in stone, 30K's facts are fluid. They are constantly being written, rewritten, and retconned in real time. If GW wants MK 6 armor to be commonplace for all of the legions, it's because they want to sell models. That's what they care about most. Selling models. Not the history, lore, logistics, believability, etc.
Interesting ideas! Nonetheless, since my planned army (traitor Emperor's Children) is based in the early years of the Heresy and I prefer the older armour lore (mkvi not being mass-produced for the majority of legions until near the end of the Heresy), I'm keeping my marines mostly in mkiv, with some mkii and iii here and there since they won't have been through enough really heavy fighting for them to need to replace their suits with mkv and mkvi yet.
It makes sense, but the people who accept/defend this sales-driven retcon, won't care about it. I still think that some lore limitations, should be updated, but not like GW is doing it.
It is a shame, because, with this power armor explanation, you touched a little bit into a subject that i would like to have a breakdown/comparison. The power and capabilites of 40k different factions and its different "units", in a side by side manner.
I discovered games workshop in 1991, most of the products I bought were made in the late 80's. I loved EPIC and decided to concentrate on the Horus Heresy because that meant I didnt need to buy orks and eldar etc and I could repaint marines to create different armies.
I can say with certainty that in those days EVERYONE was wearing MKIV armour. ok there was a very small amount of older stuff but it wasnt a big deal.
So
For me horus heresy IS MKIV armour. you can try and change it now, like pretending that the Roman were black people or something but it doesnt convince me. I was "there" and they all wore MKIV and to me they always will.
I just hope they drop Mk V or MK II soon
In 7th edition 40K not including pistol or heavy types. Or the special issue ammunition for Sternguard, there were three types of bolt gun: Storm belter, standard marine bolt gun and Sgt Tellions stalker pattern. That's it. In 9th edition there is TWENTY FOUR types of Bolt gun. Think about the logistics involved when you have to supply parts and ammunition for twenty four types of bolt gun over not just a planet like Earth, but across a feaking galaxy. It's maddening how stupid 40K has become since the introduction of 8th edition. Logistics was always an interest of mine as well. I also think about these things.
The legions during the heresy were an absolute cluster fuck with logistics dependent on where in the galaxy they were, if they were in the arsehole of nowhere for years they'd be poorly equipped with the more modern gear, but the ones at the centre of everything would be given much more resources.
There have always been different patterns of boltgun, depending on which Forgeworld made them, its like in our world with the AK-47, all the variants follow a similar design and aesthetic but have different strengths and weaknesses such as the Chinese AK or the Soviet AK
@@the98themperoroftheholybri33 from what I remember, the ammunition type was the same for all patterns of Bolt gun in HH hence the identical game profiles. So likely the receivers were based off of the same STC so they could fire the same type of ammunition similar to any 7.62x39, 5.56 or whatever modern caliber you wish to compare. Parts commonality must have been part of the equation. It's different in current 40K because it's not just patterns of rifle, but completely different game profiles. The ammo, receivers, barrels, sighting systems, stocks are all different in order to get all those different ballistic results.
One thing I think should be mentioned is that all armour marks from 3-6 are still used in 40k despite the age of mk7 and the presence of mk8 in this time and yet the recent ret cons claim that mk6 is so popular counter that and make it seem like power armour was phased out much quicker than it was when a new mark was added
With the British tank issue, could part of the issue also be that, due to being an island nation, they put their best people onto the armed forces that could stop an invasion? At least up until the point where this stopped being as great a threat?
Take a look at a Tesla factory, to use a modern context.
Each version of a Tesla car could be made in a separate production line.
Or what Tesla likely does, it makes the one major line or sets of lines to make slight variations so they can make the different model Teslas.
This isn't something the common factory could do as imagined in the early 80's, when the lore was first written.
What WOULD help is if a single factory could make different Power Armor marks, however, as the Cult Mechanicus tends to sit on such details, it's hard to tell if they'd allow it.
If they did though, I'd probably focus on Marks IV, VII, and X.
And Mark IV can be dropped, so just Mark VII and Mark X then, which could greatly armor the NorMarines and Primaris for decades or centuries to come.
And the SM HQ's and what not need to stop removing their helmets, or make one like the Space Wolves do, in volume, to let them use their better senses. More protection, longer life.
Is the fixed helm position still canon? The Mk II / III models haven't had fixed in place helms for a long, long time.
The original productions of both marks of armour had fixed helms however over the later period of the great crusade updated versions were created to allow head movement.
I believe that he said that the helmets were fixed in place when they were atmospherically sealed, which implies that they weren’t always locked “face forward”. I’m not sure that’s what he meant while saying so, but I’ve been watching Macca’s videos for years, and he usually doesn’t say something that he doesn’t mean, and I have always appreciated him for being pedantic when it comes to details. I’m in no way negatively criticizing him here, because attention to detail is something that I believe he and I both find important, so I think that’s what he meant. That the helmets can be turned side to side, unless they are locked in place due to the Marine leaving an environmentally “safe” area to go into a void area outside of an airlock, or if the enemy is deploying chemical or biological agents into an otherwise breathable atmosphere. They can then engage the helmet seal manually, or perhaps it has a sensor that will detect an unsafe environment and seal automatically.
I just want an easy access to mk 1 thunder armor. I've always loved it
The sad part is that there's no longer a way to make sense of the lore after the Mk VI retcon. It's like a minor version of Primaris, a change made via marketing fiat with no narrative first principles. There were good versions of this, such as the retcon that allowed MkII/III to have a rotating neck joint for modelling purposes, but the MKVI change is nothing save for a cynical way to generate a marketing push out of whole cloth. MkIV went from the standard Heresy era armor to being a backwater, destined for even more irrelevance once the forthcoming MkII/V kits make its old "heroic" scale even more ridiculous to look at
Anyone else here who’s favorite armor mark is mark V?
Production or Field? ;)
I'd say that like yhe ultras with mk4 they got some either in limited supplies or from enemies and reverse engineered it, especially tera and with its limited manufacturing in the sol system they just mashed it out qnd gave it to the new recruits
I do like logistics when applied to 40k and horus heresy.
What can I say I'm a autistic weirdo.
VII should not even be there.
Legions with an infrastructure could produce their own MK VI.
MK IV would likely be the most common for pretty much all legions.
I have a really hard time believing that the legions and forge worlds would not correct the issue with MK II&III being able to turn their helmets.
Interesting. When it was explained to me I was told that Mk VI and Mk VII were variants on Mk IV. Much like Mk III was a variation on Mk II.
As it was explained to me. MK VI was MK IV a bit less armor (which made it easier to manufacture), and a better censor deck in hunt beak. And MKVII was just kinda Jesus armor? It's somehow much easier to build than the previous two official marks and is even better armored than IV.
I need to get my hands on the older books that explain this, but they're aggressively hard to find where I live.
The more I think about it ,1.0 feels like early mid heresy all 9 black books and 2.0 picks up were the tenth black book should have been,so 2.0 is a sol system seige of terra system, I may be clutching at straws with that but that's what I'm beginning to see
It's all because of the alpha legion, they produced all the mark 6 and stole all the other old armour from everyone else, replacing it with the mark 6 they had made. (New GW lore) "fiction can be fun" 😁
Sadly the GW marketing department over rides all cannon 😥
So we know MK6 was being rolled out before the heresy but some legions didn't like it. Mk4 was still in production, but was slow and hard to produce. When the heresy broke out those forge worlds making mk4 wouldn't have time to swap production lines to mk6, so had to find short cuts and work arounds so those mk4 production lines start making what is now know as mk5, i.e. badly made mk4. Mk7 was being prototyped as well, nothing odd in two different facilities working on different projects, but mk7 hadn't been rolled out to the galaxy at large was was basically only being made in limited numbers on Luna.
I hope we see a mk5 kit in the future, but the whole point is its a cobbled together mess of parts from other marks, so is easy to make yourself from the current kits.
This is an outside of lore change for ip reasons if they see people selling knockoff marines with Beak helmets they have alot easier case to make to get that online store shutdown the other ones are more generic so it's harder to make the case thar it infringes same reason they killed off first borns they can't copyright the name space marine but they can primaris interblahblah same reason the changed the name of Eldar and imperial guard.
Really good and insightful presentation of the facts. I also liked your selection of examples to illustrate your point. I like the design of the MK VI but it is simply not logical to have this type around in masses like portrayed. Hence why I liked & like the idea of the heresy armour so much. Being unable to reach supply and being forced to think out of the box to create some sort of interim armour. Nothing to complain about from my end here ;)
While their fantasy universe doesn't add up, saying for our discussion we'll limit ourselves to these retcons but you can't bring up other stuff, is interestingly enough, not very realistic. GW will just say Mark IV was actually created a lot earlier, Mark VI was transmitted all over the place and it wasn't just made on Mars, and Mark V was made by forge worlds who didn't have access to the materials needed to make the Mark VI suits or their tooling. But otherwise tooling is a non-factor because we're discussing manufacturing planets and only in rare cases is tooling ever an issue because they can manufacture whatever they need with relative ease. Once they kick over one part of something's lore, the rest of it doesn't mean a thing until they reaffirm it. That's life in the cold cruel world of big corporate owned fun fantasy IPs.
MK5 would have too many mould lines
They'v already done MK3 and MK4 kits
MKVI then = profit
basically why.
Why is m6 the main? They were too lazy to make mk2 for the variety.
Logistics makes me hard.
Jokes aside it makes total sense that there would be a serious lack of numbers for the mk VI. It is why i dont like GW putting it in the large boxes, thou it does make sense on their part as a company in streamlining production and cost effectiveness.
I think mkVI looks coolest, and i also play alpha legion.
Beakies all the way :)
But there should have been a roll out of other marks in plastic FOR SURE.
GW just makes no sense at all, it's futile to try and follow the logic of a company that (as of this heresy thursday) releases a weird chaos assassin for the game that is in none of the books, and NOT a kit with plastic marines with pistols and chain swords. (which literally EVERY player would buy, since you can make them into 2 or 3 of each troops/elites/fast and many, many more legion specific units......)
so jeah... XD
Sshh....but anyone wearing corvus patterned armor might be alpha legionnaires. Except for me if course, I got mine as surplus from a supplier from Istvan.
White Dwarf 469 has a substantial feature based on this topic that answers quite a few of the questions raised… it even seems to make a passing reference to 3D printing when you read between the lines
MK VI and VII will always be my favorites
13:00 The difference between using a MK5 Vs MK6 is like owning an Airframe versus Owning an Opscore Helmet
If you don’t own the later
You’re just a loser
If it ain't MK IV it's MK Snore.
Yeah ..the new lore for the mk6 amour distracts from its original lore , gives less meaning to each mk and has the likes of imperial fists or iron warriors wearing the weaker corvus pattern, to sell more models GW has shit on its lore ......when selling models far surpasses their care for the lore its a massive issue .....thematically ....mk5 would be best in the box set....both sides adapting and putting together random hap hazard mk5 as they continue to fight each other with more focus on fighting that being able to spend time producing decent armor....mk 5 production armor being a quick and barely sufficient solution ......
with the newer lore...its seems like mk5 doesnt even need to exist ...that there were always superior mks being produced in enough numbers in such a short time that mk5 wouldnt even be needed .....
You can have a story where close to its culmination both sides are hurting ..their last big battle has marines in the worse states of function ....suits of mk5 missing pieces and most systems and plate failing on both sides due to its intensity and no time to recover ....or you have a battle where everyone is in nice new armor.....the nicest armor as it seems nothing more that a standard day for them ...
You have a small portion of them in mk6 as it is legion specific for the most part, its newly implemented for the other legions so only a few marines would have them elsewhere ....and then when it comes down to the scouring ..that is when you have the definitive mk6 come in ......traitor legions gaining access due to alpha legion machinations before the end of the heresy and raids on loyalist supply chain and even from dark mechanicum worlds ......
they destroy decent lore in order to move the timeline forward too quickly ....and in the wrong section of the timeline
The driving force to rid the galaxy of traitors, would warrant the mk6 project being fully realised with gusto and would make actual sense and good storytelling
MK6 is the worst mark ever made. I have no idea why we dont have plastic mk5, its more customizable than any other mark.
>cant move head
wtf. thats a horrible design compromise.
>Can't move head *if sealed*
And yes, it was terrible, but still better than suffocating in space because your helmet wasn't sealed at all.
Tbh I dont want any more kits in plastic as it removes the resin variants I would rater have mk3 mk4 resin models than a full range of mark6 but all in plastic I mean I'm sure white scars players like a plastic jetbike until they removed the resin ones in older marks and the new dreadnought says it all tbh give me models with character in resin over bland plastic ones any day
Macca please get a real microphone they aren't that expensive